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BPS 387: How to Protect Your Film from Online Piracy with Evan Zeisel · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three eighty seven.
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Speaker 2: The pictures are there and you just take them.
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Speaker 1: Robert Kappa broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood.
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Speaker 2: When we really should be working on that next draft.
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Speaker 1: It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
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Speaker 1: business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
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Speaker 1: screenplay bulletproof.
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Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
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Speaker 2: episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble
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Speaker 2: host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof
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1:32
Speaker 2: Let's start the episode today with the story. Guys, when
1:35
Speaker 2: I put out my second film on the corner of
1:38
Speaker 2: ego and desire within I'm going to say eight to
1:42
Speaker 2: ten hours somewhere along there's those lines. It was already
1:45
Speaker 2: pirated and put up illegally on these sites tour in
1:50
Speaker 2: sits where you can download and watch my movie for
1:54
Speaker 2: free without giving me, the filmmaker, or my producers any
1:59
Speaker 2: revenue from I was a little independent film. Seriously, I
2:03
Speaker 2: don't think it gets much more little than as far
2:06
Speaker 2: as budget is concerned for ego and desire. But I
2:09
Speaker 2: was shocked about it. I was like, man, I can't
2:11
Speaker 2: believe they went after me. Someone's so small. I'm not
2:14
Speaker 2: the Avengers, I'm not a big studio movie. But it's
2:18
Speaker 2: pretty remarkable how the ecosystem works, of how these websites
2:23
Speaker 2: are making money why they do what they do, how
2:26
Speaker 2: they do it, and so on. I wrote a whole
2:28
Speaker 2: article about about how that happened, where I found them,
2:33
Speaker 2: kind of the ecosystem things like that, and I'll put
2:35
Speaker 2: a link to that in the show notes as well.
2:37
Speaker 2: But today I wanted to bring a copyright expert on
2:41
Speaker 2: the show, and his name is Evan Zeisel, who is
2:44
Speaker 2: the owner and operator of an amazing website and service
2:49
Speaker 2: called Copyright Slap. Now, what copyright Slap does is allows filmmakers,
2:55
Speaker 2: for twenty bucks a month to come in and send
2:58
Speaker 2: out as many sees and the cyst orders as they
3:03
Speaker 2: want in that thirty day period to as many different
3:07
Speaker 2: websites links anywhere they find their movies. They send a
3:11
Speaker 2: ceason assist order, and Copyright Slap not only sends them
3:15
Speaker 2: the first letter, but if they don't reply, then they
3:18
Speaker 2: send it to their website provider and gets their website
3:23
Speaker 2: completely taken down. So their rate of takedowns is pretty
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Speaker 2: remarkable and easily the most affordable and effective service doing
3:34
Speaker 2: this online today. And Evan and I get into the
3:38
Speaker 2: weeds of what these pirates are doing, why they're doing it,
3:42
Speaker 2: how they make their money, what kind of ecosystem is
3:44
Speaker 2: set up for this world and how we as independent
3:49
Speaker 2: filmmakers can fight back against the pirates and take back
3:54
Speaker 2: the ip the copyrighted material that we own and we
4:00
Speaker 2: deserve to make money with. So, without any further ado,
4:04
Speaker 2: please enjoy my conversation with Evan Zeiseel. I like to
4:08
Speaker 2: welcome to the show, Evan zeisel Man.
4:09
Speaker 3: How you doing, Evan, I'm doing great. I'm doing great.
4:12
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
4:13
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming on the show. Man. We're going to
4:15
Speaker 2: talk about piracy and copyright infringement and all sorts of sexy, beautiful,
4:21
Speaker 2: cool stuff that filmmakers love to talk about.
4:24
Speaker 3: But yeah, Johnny Depp being on the internet pretty much right,
4:28
Speaker 3: that's what we're talking.
4:29
Speaker 2: About, exactly. It's the really, I mean, it's it's it's
4:31
Speaker 2: one step above financial breakdowns for future films. No, but
4:37
Speaker 2: it all but it's so much fun. But the bottom
4:40
Speaker 2: line is it is something that is affecting so many filmmakers,
4:44
Speaker 2: not just the Avengers and Game of Thrones.
4:48
Speaker 3: But also a lot of money and can afford can
4:51
Speaker 3: afford it? Right exactly.
4:54
Speaker 2: But then the indies like myself, like I had my
4:58
Speaker 2: film Pirate, I think eleven hours after I got put
5:02
Speaker 2: up on online. It was already on the pirated boards.
5:05
Speaker 3: I was like, that's that's pretty fast. I Mine just
5:08
Speaker 3: took under a week.
5:09
Speaker 2: My first yeah, mis was eleven hours. I counted. I
5:12
Speaker 2: was like, holy cow. So I did a whole episode
5:14
Speaker 2: like this is what happened to my film?
5:15
Speaker 3: And and there are fake ones too, They're amazing. There
5:18
Speaker 3: are fake ones that pop up on films that are
5:21
Speaker 3: in festivals that are just up on IMDb, and they
5:24
Speaker 3: pull from IMDb the the name and the description and everything,
5:30
Speaker 3: and then they say, you know, click to watch, and
5:32
Speaker 3: then you have to get a description. And but it's
5:35
Speaker 3: all about it's all about the traffic for them. They
5:37
Speaker 3: don't care about the actual watching of the film. They
5:40
Speaker 3: just want either the ads or the person to show
5:44
Speaker 3: up to the site so they can add malware to
5:46
Speaker 3: their system and then you know, sell that. Or they've
5:49
Speaker 3: got these weird click through things. I mean, it's so many,
5:52
Speaker 3: Well we'll get it. They make their money. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
5:54
Speaker 3: I want to get.
5:55
Speaker 2: Into the whole piracy business as well. But first of all,
5:58
Speaker 2: how did you a mild mannered filmmaker? You know, the
6:03
Speaker 2: Clark Kent of filmmakers, So how did you get into
6:06
Speaker 2: the copyright you know, piracy game, like how to protect
6:09
Speaker 2: filmmakers from up from copyright piracy.
6:11
Speaker 3: I feel like I feel like we all as filmmakers
6:14
Speaker 3: start off as I would say, instead of Clark camp
6:17
Speaker 3: will go young Bruce Wayne even then somebody comes in
6:21
Speaker 3: and murders our parents in front of us, and then
6:23
Speaker 3: guess what, Batman shows up, and then Batman's never gonna lead,
6:28
Speaker 3: and Batman gets angry and Batman tracks people down right. Yeah,
6:33
Speaker 3: I'm sort of the story of every indie filmmaker. I
6:37
Speaker 3: did my first feature film about ten years ago now,
6:41
Speaker 3: and we you know, went to festivals, got a distributor,
6:45
Speaker 3: and then within a week of going online, I think
6:48
Speaker 3: we started on back in the day when Apple TV
6:51
Speaker 3: was the big thing. We started on Apple TV, but
6:53
Speaker 3: then went to all the other ones. But yeah, within
6:55
Speaker 3: a week of being on our first subscription video on
6:59
Speaker 3: demand or at whatever I guess it did, it's a
7:02
Speaker 3: VOD site. I started popping up on all of these
7:07
Speaker 3: piracy sites and they had the film. And with modern technology,
7:12
Speaker 3: you know, people just record the Somebody rented it once
7:15
Speaker 3: and then recorded the whole thing, so it's pristine quality.
7:18
Speaker 3: And instead of people going to our site or even
7:21
Speaker 3: when it's on Amazon Prime it's free to watch, so
7:24
Speaker 3: but we get money when people watch it. But when
7:27
Speaker 3: they go to other sites, it's there. And so I
7:32
Speaker 3: I was like, well, I'm going to stop this. So
7:34
Speaker 3: I did my research and sort of the positives and
7:37
Speaker 3: negatives of the copyright world, especially online, as it all
7:41
Speaker 3: goes through this this law, this US law called the DMCA,
7:46
Speaker 3: which stands for the Digital Millennial Copyright Act, which is
7:50
Speaker 3: an act in nineteen ninety eight. To give you a
7:52
Speaker 3: reference for how old it is, back back when people
7:55
Speaker 3: were on al aols right copies copyer, Yes, yes exactly,
8:04
Speaker 3: so you know it's created then, and it's got this
8:08
Speaker 3: sort of double sided blade. So on one side it
8:11
Speaker 3: is meant to protect copyright holders from their works being stolen.
8:15
Speaker 3: On the other side, it is meant to respect the
8:18
Speaker 3: First Amendment and to protect people who don't realize what
8:22
Speaker 3: they're doing. Unfortunately, that opens up the door for people
8:26
Speaker 3: to essentially run amok. And what the what the DMCA
8:31
Speaker 3: says is, UH, if you put somebody's copyright items online
8:35
Speaker 3: and you don't know it's copyrighted, uh, and it is
8:40
Speaker 3: not illegal until the copyright holder contacts you and says, hey,
8:45
Speaker 3: that's mine. That's illegal. If you use it for commercial purposes,
8:49
Speaker 3: then they can say, you know, okay, you've you've used it,
8:52
Speaker 3: so now you owe me for that benefit. But until
8:56
Speaker 3: you're contacted by the copyright holder, it is not illegal.
9:00
Speaker 3: And so what happens is these piracy sites put them
9:02
Speaker 3: online and then you, as a copyright holder, have to
9:05
Speaker 3: track them down and then figure out how to contact
9:08
Speaker 3: them and then send a very specifically worded document that
9:13
Speaker 3: matches what it says in the Digital Millennial Copyright Act
9:16
Speaker 3: to them, and then when they receive it, they have
9:19
Speaker 3: to quote the DMCA a reasonable amount of time, which
9:24
Speaker 3: the court has deemed I think between forty eight and
9:27
Speaker 3: seventy two hours to comply and if they don't take
9:30
Speaker 3: it down, then they are in violation law. But essentially,
9:35
Speaker 3: when I was spending I don't know, two hours a
9:38
Speaker 3: day finding sites, looking and finding the contact info, filling
9:43
Speaker 3: out this form, emailing it to them, and then you know,
9:47
Speaker 3: usually they take it down because they don't care about
9:49
Speaker 3: my film. They just care about people coming.
9:52
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
9:58
Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
10:02
Speaker 3: And we got to but I was doing two hours
10:04
Speaker 3: a day and I burned out. I mean, as you know,
10:07
Speaker 3: us indie filmmakers are not we don't have the Warner
10:10
Speaker 3: Brothers army of attorneys. We don't We're often small, if
10:15
Speaker 3: not individual kind of productions. And it's just overwhelming. And
10:22
Speaker 3: I think that's one of the things that sort of
10:24
Speaker 3: the pirates bank on. And so I, with no coding knowledge,
10:31
Speaker 3: contacted a college friend of mine who's in it, and
10:34
Speaker 3: I was like, Hey, I got this idea. Let's let's
10:37
Speaker 3: help indie filmmakers like fight this thing that screws them
10:41
Speaker 3: that's mainly focused on these you know, the avengers, the
10:44
Speaker 3: big budget films that make all their money in the
10:47
Speaker 3: theaters or make them on you know, their HBO, Max's
10:50
Speaker 3: or whatever, and it doesn't hurt their bottom line. But
10:54
Speaker 3: you know, I remember calculating at one point, if I
10:57
Speaker 3: got a ninety nine sense actually I think I calculated
11:01
Speaker 3: if I got like fifty cents for every view, I
11:04
Speaker 3: would have made back the entire budget easily in the
11:08
Speaker 3: first year if and had access. But you know, you
11:14
Speaker 3: go to these sites and people like, oh, I don't
11:16
Speaker 3: want to pay, and they just and they watch and
11:19
Speaker 3: they've got more and more advanced, so they look like
11:21
Speaker 3: a Netflix. They look like a professional site until you
11:24
Speaker 3: sort of delve into them. But the normal user isn't
11:26
Speaker 3: going to delve into them, and they go, oh, this
11:28
Speaker 3: looks awesome, Oh I can watch this for free, and
11:31
Speaker 3: so yeah, So so my friend and I we created
11:34
Speaker 3: copyright slap dot Com that essentially automates the process so
11:39
Speaker 3: that it's so much faster to do, so that we
11:42
Speaker 3: can send, you know, hundreds of these takedowns and seconds
11:47
Speaker 3: so that producers don't get overwhelmed first don't.
11:52
Speaker 2: So okay, So the when you're when you're doing copyright infringement,
11:57
Speaker 2: so like there's the we're it's a gray area, and
12:00
Speaker 2: it seems like the the the pressure is on the
12:04
Speaker 2: copyright holder, not the pirate or the person who just
12:09
Speaker 2: doesn't know any better. Yeah, because there's there's people who
12:12
Speaker 2: upload to YouTube, you know, the Avengers, the entire movie because.
12:17
Speaker 3: Well yeah, and well you run into and so one
12:19
Speaker 3: of the things that balances out is this idea of
12:21
Speaker 3: fair use versus copyright infringement, which I also think fair Yeah,
12:25
Speaker 3: and so fair use is if you use a piece
12:30
Speaker 3: of uh a copyright material, but it's either a bleep
12:35
Speaker 3: transformative or it's used for commentary, uh yeah, or for
12:42
Speaker 3: kind of reporting.
12:44
Speaker 2: Reported I think is educational even then there.
12:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think educational. I think educational. Yeah, is is
12:49
Speaker 3: one of the big ones in there. And uh that
12:54
Speaker 3: allows you to use it, but you can't upload an
12:57
Speaker 3: entire film because you just.
12:58
Speaker 2: Put a commentary on it.
13:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, like that's not but you know, you know the
13:02
Speaker 3: ones that the YouTube channels that do the breakdown of
13:05
Speaker 3: the films and sort of like, well, this was wrong,
13:08
Speaker 3: this was wrong, this was wrong. They're not using the
13:09
Speaker 3: whole film. They're using clips and they're talking specifically about it.
13:13
Speaker 3: And it's not people are watching that video not to
13:17
Speaker 3: watch the film. They're watching it to watch that video
13:19
Speaker 3: that is the commentary.
13:21
Speaker 2: Right, and they actually and YouTube has become very ridiculous
13:25
Speaker 2: about it now where now these copyright holders like Warner
13:28
Speaker 2: Brothers and stuff like that, they'll just start they just
13:31
Speaker 2: blanket it to go after anybody that even has a
13:33
Speaker 2: second of Avengers and one of these talking points that's
13:37
Speaker 2: no one's talking over because I've gotten hit with that.
13:39
Speaker 2: We have a series on an indie film Hustle that
13:43
Speaker 2: it's called the Director Series, which is is a commentary
13:45
Speaker 2: series about breaking down famous directors and their work, and
13:48
Speaker 2: I've been hit with that's constantly. I'm like, dude, it's
13:51
Speaker 2: completely fair use. But then the big boys will start
13:54
Speaker 2: pushing back on you and just like, well, we don't
13:56
Speaker 2: care if you want.
13:57
Speaker 3: To, well, but you have technically you have the law
14:00
Speaker 3: on your side there. I'm so. I am a big
14:02
Speaker 3: supporter of uh protecting those who have the copyright and
14:06
Speaker 3: them not getting screwed out of earnings. But I also
14:10
Speaker 3: believe fair use is fair use, and there are times
14:14
Speaker 3: and places for that that are appropriate. And one of
14:16
Speaker 3: the things that we we sort of say to our
14:20
Speaker 3: our users is know the difference between copyright infringement and
14:23
Speaker 3: fair use. If somebody is doing a commentary on your film,
14:26
Speaker 3: people are gonna watch that and then watch your film
14:29
Speaker 3: like you want that. That's a positive thing. It's it's
14:32
Speaker 3: kind of goes to the uh, you know, the Disney
14:35
Speaker 3: copyright thing related to cosplay, where they used to I
14:40
Speaker 3: don't know if they still do, but they they don't
14:42
Speaker 3: allow people to dress up because they don't want the name,
14:45
Speaker 3: you know, injured or whatever. And at the same time,
14:48
Speaker 3: if you think about it, everybody watching these cosplay people
14:50
Speaker 3: are like, oh, yeah, I love that film. I'm gonna
14:53
Speaker 3: go rewatch it. It's free advertising, and it's yeah, it's
14:57
Speaker 3: and YouTube is only started doing that because they've been
15:02
Speaker 3: losing lawsuits. They would they don't do it on their
15:04
Speaker 3: own until they're pushed. It's it's all about the money.
15:07
Speaker 2: It's always it seems to be always about the money.
15:10
Speaker 2: But that's just as they say, a tale is old
15:12
Speaker 2: as time.
15:13
Speaker 3: Uh well, I mean that's both sides. Both. The piracy
15:17
Speaker 3: is not about them actually caring about your film. It's
15:20
Speaker 3: them making money. And YouTube they make their ad sales
15:26
Speaker 3: regardless of if it's a copyright infringement or not, until
15:29
Speaker 3: some giant copyright holders start suing them.
15:33
Speaker 2: Well, and then that's the thing was that before, before
15:37
Speaker 2: the Internet, it was just DVDs and people would just
15:40
Speaker 2: burn out DVDs or burnout VHS's or copy and then
15:43
Speaker 2: sell them on the street. And it was a lot
15:45
Speaker 2: harder to kind of break that down, but there also
15:48
Speaker 2: was a very limited amount like if you were losing
15:51
Speaker 2: it's not like well in China they do that still,
15:53
Speaker 2: and you know, it's it's insane. But ever since the
15:56
Speaker 2: Internet showed up, now it's like a few hours later
15:59
Speaker 2: it's around the world and you're done. It's a second
16:02
Speaker 2: it hits. So that's why like all these big movies
16:04
Speaker 2: are hitting HBO Max right now, you know, and god
16:07
Speaker 2: Zilla versus Kiing Kong, which is a quote unquote theatrical release,
16:11
Speaker 2: that's that's been pirated. Moment it hit the online.
16:14
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's gone. It's like I mean, I mean,
16:16
Speaker 3: I remember, I remember back in the day. Well remember
16:19
Speaker 3: back in the day the handheld videos in the theater.
16:22
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
16:25
Speaker 2: There was like there was like a signful episode where
16:27
Speaker 2: Jerry accidentally became like the ultimate bootlegg A tour and
16:31
Speaker 2: he would just like you know, and it's like how
16:34
Speaker 2: he shot it and everything. Yeah, and those are yeah,
16:37
Speaker 2: you would just see it, dude. You see people get
16:38
Speaker 2: up in the scene and walk around. But those are
16:41
Speaker 2: still those are still available, those are still being done
16:44
Speaker 2: in in other countries. And then yeah, I.
16:47
Speaker 3: Mean but now unfortunately, with with modern technology and computer
16:51
Speaker 3: a lot easier, you can just screen record and it's
16:54
Speaker 3: a perfect copy. Unfortunately, I'm not I'm not telling anybody
16:58
Speaker 3: anything they don't know. Sure, not telling pirates how to
17:01
Speaker 3: do their job. But it's it's easy and really annoying
17:04
Speaker 3: because at least when there's somebody standing in the way,
17:08
Speaker 3: the viewers like, Okay, maybe this isn't legit, or maybe
17:11
Speaker 3: maybe I'll buy the real thing.
17:13
Speaker 2: But the thing is too I think one of the
17:15
Speaker 2: things that I found that piracy what the studios have done,
17:19
Speaker 2: and I think indiaan and filmmakers need to do as well,
17:22
Speaker 2: is they've made it so easy to consume the content
17:28
Speaker 2: that it's harder now to go out and bootleg something
17:34
Speaker 2: for the most part, like go and go, find the file,
17:38
Speaker 2: download the file, get that file to play either on
17:41
Speaker 2: your computer or try to figure out a way to
17:43
Speaker 2: play it out on your TV. There's a technical process there.
17:47
Speaker 2: Most every day people aren't going to do. This is
17:49
Speaker 2: just my opinion is to do.
17:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm biting my tongue on this one. What do
17:53
Speaker 3: you think I think on certain things, And I don't
17:56
Speaker 3: want to tell people how to pirate of course movies. Yeah,
18:00
Speaker 3: I mean you're sort of talking about torrants, which are
18:03
Speaker 3: one of the aspects of it. But these days, unfortunately
18:06
Speaker 3: the streaming websites.
18:08
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I saw my movie. Oh yeah, I saw
18:10
Speaker 2: my movie.
18:10
Speaker 3: There's my partner will kill me? So when I or
18:15
Speaker 3: when I sort of say this, so I'm going to
18:16
Speaker 3: be very careful of how I say it. There are
18:18
Speaker 3: three levels to piracy. The first one is streaming content,
18:22
Speaker 3: which is the most easily accessible. The second level is torrance,
18:26
Speaker 3: which is the second level of accessibility. And then there's
18:29
Speaker 3: a third one which I'm not allowed to talk about
18:31
Speaker 3: because it is very hard to access. But many hackers
18:36
Speaker 3: are the ones to access it, and so if I
18:39
Speaker 3: bring that up, I get in trouble.
18:41
Speaker 2: So that's fair enough.
18:43
Speaker 3: But well, so there's nothing returns. I think the torrents,
18:47
Speaker 3: you know, it takes a little bit of know how
18:50
Speaker 3: to do, but to go online and just search for
18:53
Speaker 3: a movie, unfortunately, is really easy and it'll pop up
18:56
Speaker 3: a lot of sites. I know, Google just recently, because
18:59
Speaker 3: of a lawsuit, change their search engine, so they should
19:02
Speaker 3: the illegal sites show up less because.
19:07
Speaker 2: Before you could literally just Google and you know, you
19:11
Speaker 2: google my name of my movie and boom does some
19:13
Speaker 2: site and in Malaysia pops up and it's like with
19:17
Speaker 2: my poster with all my IMDb information in there, and
19:21
Speaker 2: then I press play. I'm like, are you kidding me?
19:24
Speaker 2: Like it's there. I'm like, if I'm honored that you
19:28
Speaker 2: thought of my little film. But it's it was just
19:31
Speaker 2: pretty eye opening. It was like wow, like I get Avengers,
19:34
Speaker 2: I get Game of Thrones, I get that. That's there's big.
19:37
Speaker 2: There's big numbers. Big people are interested in them, but
19:39
Speaker 2: like to go after the indies like it's yeah.
19:43
Speaker 3: So the thing is the the streaming slash online piracy
19:49
Speaker 3: industry is a multi billion dollar industry. It's not a
19:53
Speaker 3: multi hundred thousand dollars, it's not a couple of million.
19:56
Speaker 3: It's a multi billion dollar industry.
19:59
Speaker 2: Will be right back after a word from our sponsor,
20:05
Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
20:08
Speaker 3: Because they've got so many different ways to make money
20:12
Speaker 3: when people show up, so that all they care about
20:15
Speaker 3: is traffic.
20:16
Speaker 2: So how so how do you make how what's the business?
20:19
Speaker 2: The piracy business model?
20:21
Speaker 3: Piracy business? So there's there's a bunch of different approaches.
20:25
Speaker 3: So one there's the subscription model. They they what is me?
20:32
Speaker 3: But it's you know, the thing they say is like
20:34
Speaker 3: pay ten dollars and you get every movie ever right
20:38
Speaker 3: per month?
20:39
Speaker 2: And so's I legally, but obviously those servers are not
20:42
Speaker 2: here in the US there, yeah, oh.
20:44
Speaker 3: They're yeah, they're not. It's not legal at all yeah, yeah,
20:47
Speaker 3: like people don't, but they set them up so it
20:48
Speaker 3: looks like a Netflix, it looks like a Hulu. So
20:51
Speaker 3: it's so professional. The average you know, person who's searching
20:56
Speaker 3: online for movies doesn't know. So so one route is
20:59
Speaker 3: a subscription, second route is Google Ads. Right, the more traffic,
21:05
Speaker 3: the more ads are worth on sites. So if they
21:10
Speaker 3: can get millions of people to come by their web
21:14
Speaker 3: website every day, then the ads that they are making
21:22
Speaker 3: money that are posting on their site are worth more.
21:26
Speaker 2: So how is Google allowing us? How's Google and allowing this?
21:30
Speaker 3: Because Google doesn't have a no fly list for websites.
21:34
Speaker 2: And even then if even if you close one, fifteen
21:37
Speaker 2: pop up in its place.
21:38
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And then there's a tangent on the Google
21:42
Speaker 3: Ads one which I find really interesting and I only
21:45
Speaker 3: know about because I had sort of a tutorial shown
21:48
Speaker 3: to me by one of the sort of copyright alliances
21:53
Speaker 3: that's also helping fight this. And what happens is you
21:57
Speaker 3: go to a website and in the background, another window
22:01
Speaker 3: automatically is open up without you knowing it. Andy, it
22:04
Speaker 3: scrolls up and down, and then a little pointer comes
22:09
Speaker 3: and clicks on an AD and so it looks like
22:13
Speaker 3: you're browsing a site and clicking through an ad, which
22:16
Speaker 3: is higher dollar pay to the web. Click throughs are
22:21
Speaker 3: much more than just traffic, so they have that. And
22:23
Speaker 3: then there is the sort of last route, which a
22:27
Speaker 3: lot of people unless you have virus software on your system,
22:32
Speaker 3: that's pretty good. Then you go to any of these
22:35
Speaker 3: piracy sites. The last one is malware, so these sites
22:39
Speaker 3: also try and put malware on your system while you're watching.
22:43
Speaker 3: When you go oh, click to view, yes, you click,
22:45
Speaker 3: which is also an acceptance of whatever permissions, they add
22:49
Speaker 3: a little trojan horse, you know, backdoor thing on your
22:52
Speaker 3: computer and then they sell in bulk bundles of essentially
22:57
Speaker 3: zombie computers to nefarious people who want to use them.
23:02
Speaker 3: And that's one way that you know, these people can
23:04
Speaker 3: do U what is it a d uh D d
23:08
Speaker 3: o s the when you brute force attack a website
23:14
Speaker 3: with a lot of different computers at once. Essentially they're
23:17
Speaker 3: buying these packages of all these computers that people don't
23:21
Speaker 3: know and it's very small, that's you know, that's happening
23:24
Speaker 3: in the background, so that people don't even know their
23:26
Speaker 3: computers are being used, and they can make money off
23:30
Speaker 3: of that, yeah and so and so if you look
23:34
Speaker 3: at how they make their money, the actual content doesn't matter.
23:39
Speaker 3: People to the site, so they go, they go, oh,
23:42
Speaker 3: I've created a bot that can scrape all of IMDb
23:45
Speaker 3: and then it finds if they find one thing, one
23:49
Speaker 3: version of the movie, quote it up and boom done done.
23:54
Speaker 2: And this in the same system goes with any kind
23:57
Speaker 2: of content, whether it's piracy of software, piracy of music,
24:01
Speaker 2: piracy of porn, and any anything that people are interested
24:07
Speaker 2: in to download or watch. It's just so movies are
24:11
Speaker 2: just one of many forms of media that are being
24:15
Speaker 2: being used for this business model.
24:16
Speaker 3: Just I just like to say, if anybody is in
24:18
Speaker 3: the porn industry listening, porn is also a movie. So
24:21
Speaker 3: that is not a separate category. You are a filmmaker too,
24:27
Speaker 3: just a very particular subgenre.
24:29
Speaker 2: It's a it's a very particular subgenre, so so much of.
24:33
Speaker 3: A subgenre that in a deeper voice for this, we
24:35
Speaker 3: should be talking in particular.
24:37
Speaker 2: There should be it's a very particular subgenre. But oh oh,
24:40
Speaker 2: I think a pizza A pizza man just knocked on my.
24:42
Speaker 3: Door, give me a second, no joke, but actually, uh,
24:50
Speaker 3: piracy online piracy is a big issue for the porn industry,
24:53
Speaker 3: Oh she goes. You know again, they make a lot
24:55
Speaker 3: of their money on either I believe subscription services for
24:59
Speaker 3: like a porn in start or their particular production company,
25:03
Speaker 3: or coming to their specific site, and they make the
25:06
Speaker 3: content for their site, right. I mean it's kind of
25:08
Speaker 3: like a social media influencer you gain by people coming
25:14
Speaker 3: to your site and you or your your page, your handle, whatever.
25:19
Speaker 3: I think a lot of porn sites it's going to
25:21
Speaker 3: those sites and viewing the content because they make their
25:24
Speaker 3: money quote unquote legitimately via Google ad sales or things
25:31
Speaker 3: like that, but they you know, probably particularize their content
25:35
Speaker 3: for their the niche group that is going to those sites.
25:39
Speaker 3: But when it's when it's pulled away, there's just another
25:41
Speaker 3: piracy to site.
25:43
Speaker 2: So let me ask you a question, what is the
25:44
Speaker 2: actual effect of online piracy to an independent filmmaker? Like,
25:48
Speaker 2: I mean, look, were the people that were watching it
25:51
Speaker 2: on a pirated site actually ever like were they really
25:54
Speaker 2: ever going to be a customer?
25:56
Speaker 3: Is the question I'm asking. That is a very good
25:59
Speaker 3: quest question And when I've thought about a lot, and
26:02
Speaker 3: I think is always asked, and I think there are tiers. Right, Uh,
26:07
Speaker 3: there's the people who will never pay for anything, and
26:11
Speaker 3: those people might not go to watch content. However, if
26:16
Speaker 3: that content is on YouTube with ads, if that content
26:20
Speaker 3: is on Amazon Prime, uh, on tube yeah, two b TV. Uh,
26:27
Speaker 3: you know a Roku channel that IMDb TV is coming
26:31
Speaker 3: out and it has you know, ad based content that's
26:34
Speaker 3: free to watch. Uh, So would they go to those
26:38
Speaker 3: which are also free? The then there are those that
26:42
Speaker 3: it's easy to find. They search online if it if
26:46
Speaker 3: the first one was a two b tv, uh, you
26:49
Speaker 3: know Amazon Prime, they click it, but it's not. So
26:52
Speaker 3: The idea essentially is if you can whack a mole
26:56
Speaker 3: enough of these sites so that your your main content
27:00
Speaker 3: that you want people to go to is on that
27:01
Speaker 3: first search page or the first or second search page,
27:04
Speaker 3: the chance is that somebody's going to click one of those,
27:07
Speaker 3: you know, AVOD ad based video on demand streaming sites,
27:11
Speaker 3: which they don't have to pay for, but you do
27:13
Speaker 3: make money off of the percentage chance of them clicking
27:17
Speaker 3: on that goes up dramatically. I mean, yeah, how much.
27:22
Speaker 3: That is a good question. So I think the number
27:25
Speaker 3: of people who watch online is an insane number. I
27:30
Speaker 3: had some statistics.
27:31
Speaker 2: I think, well, I remember what I'm going to cut
27:34
Speaker 2: you off. But I remember when Game of Thrones was,
27:36
Speaker 2: which was the number one pirated show I think in history,
27:39
Speaker 2: I think ever something like that, but it was one
27:41
Speaker 2: year specifically that it just dominated, and the producers of
27:46
Speaker 2: the show said publicly that they're very thankful for the
27:51
Speaker 2: piracy because it wouldn't have been as popular of a
27:55
Speaker 2: show without the piracy, and so many people would either
27:59
Speaker 2: pirate seize or two and then to get the latest thing.
28:03
Speaker 2: Instead of pirates fired in each episode, they just went
28:06
Speaker 2: ahead and got a subscription to HBO go or whatever
28:09
Speaker 2: it was at the time. They said it was extremely
28:12
Speaker 2: it was extremely helpful to building the brand because so
28:16
Speaker 2: many people bootlegged it and so many people watched it
28:19
Speaker 2: that at the end of the day, it actually helped them. Now,
28:22
Speaker 2: again that's a very specific case. I'm not saying copy
28:26
Speaker 2: you know pirates. Here's here's my my my asterisk. If
28:30
Speaker 2: we're gonna have Ferry bonds it, yeah, very much.
28:35
Speaker 3: My asteris is HBO makes a lot of money on merchandise,
28:39
Speaker 3: that Kama Thrones makes a lot of money on merchandise.
28:42
Speaker 3: That their bottom line is the more people they get
28:45
Speaker 3: to watch, the more people are gonna buy the dragon
28:50
Speaker 3: egg mug or the you know whatever that they make
28:55
Speaker 3: a lot of money on that. So part of their
28:58
Speaker 3: pitch is the most number of eyes and hbos and
29:04
Speaker 3: HBO's model has very often been and they've sort of
29:07
Speaker 3: figured it out in a nice, in a smart way.
29:09
Speaker 3: It's not about the greater audience. It's about a niche audience.
29:12
Speaker 3: And if we can get a viewer, he says, Oh,
29:14
Speaker 3: I got to see this show and it's nowhere else
29:18
Speaker 3: really other than I mean, I guess on piracy. But
29:20
Speaker 3: they want to see it in the moment, then they
29:24
Speaker 3: can do it and they'll get subspidify. But I've also
29:26
Speaker 3: I mean back in the day, I remember talking to
29:29
Speaker 3: a friend and I think I was watching Game of
29:32
Speaker 3: Thrones and you know, they were in another country and
29:38
Speaker 3: it wasn't as easily accessible, and I was like, oh,
29:41
Speaker 3: did you see that episode of Like oh, well, we're
29:43
Speaker 3: you know, we're ten minutes behind because we got to
29:44
Speaker 3: watch it on a piracy site. I was like, you
29:47
Speaker 3: know they're recording. They're like, oh no, was lying and
29:49
Speaker 3: putting it online pretty much immediately.
29:53
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
29:59
Speaker 2: and now back to the show. Yeah, And that's and
30:03
Speaker 2: that's another thing as well that I've I've mentioned. I
30:06
Speaker 2: mentioned that in my book and I mentioned it elsewhere,
30:08
Speaker 2: that if you can use your movie as a lead
30:12
Speaker 2: generator for other revenue streams, the actual exploitation of the
30:16
Speaker 2: film is not the business. That's not the main business.
30:20
Speaker 2: Because all the studios have done that. Disney's main business
30:23
Speaker 2: is not making movies. It's everything else that they have
30:27
Speaker 2: in their ecosystem. It's now HBO and Warner Brothers is
30:30
Speaker 2: kind of picking up on that. Disney is still the
30:32
Speaker 2: king of that. And their system is so instant, their
30:36
Speaker 2: foundation and infrastructure is so well put together that I
30:39
Speaker 2: think I think it's Disney, Warner Brothers, and maybe Universal,
30:42
Speaker 2: and I think that's pretty much it. Then the other
30:44
Speaker 2: guys are still trying to catch up. Paramount still trying
30:46
Speaker 2: to catch up. They don't they don't have the infrastructure
30:48
Speaker 2: that Disney does. But you know, sure they make everyone say, oh,
30:52
Speaker 2: you made a billion dollars off or two billion dollars
30:54
Speaker 2: off of Avengers or whatever the hell it was. That's
30:57
Speaker 2: nice money, but it's nothing compared to what they sell
31:01
Speaker 2: and merch it's nothing to compare. It's nothing compared to
31:03
Speaker 2: the parks, rides and all the million of other things
31:07
Speaker 2: that they sell. My buddy worked at Disney as an animator,
31:11
Speaker 2: and they brought him in, brought the whole team in
31:14
Speaker 2: to tell them how they made their money. And they said,
31:18
Speaker 2: Frozen okay, which made a billion dollars at the box office.
31:23
Speaker 2: A billion dollars at the box office. The dresses, the
31:28
Speaker 2: Anna and what's her name is what I forgot her name?
31:31
Speaker 3: Elsa?
31:32
Speaker 2: Thank you, Elsa?
31:33
Speaker 3: How dare you?
31:34
Speaker 2: How dare me? I know? I'm sorry Elsa. And Anna's
31:37
Speaker 2: dresses alone, the ones that my daughter bought. My daughter's
31:41
Speaker 2: brought like seven times because they kept growing and breaking
31:44
Speaker 2: and ripping them off because the wouldn't take them off.
31:45
Speaker 2: A billion on the dresses alone, Oh I bet, I.
31:49
Speaker 3: Bet there's some some digital dress that you can buy
31:53
Speaker 3: on some game that is an a dress or an
31:57
Speaker 3: else address that they've also made a billion dollars off
31:59
Speaker 3: of that. It costs just the coding. I mean to
32:02
Speaker 3: make a nod to that little guy over your shoulder, Yes,
32:07
Speaker 3: I mean Star Wars and Lucas were the first to
32:10
Speaker 3: do it. It was he said, you know, it's not
32:12
Speaker 3: about it's not about the movie. Pouts of merchandising.
32:15
Speaker 2: It's about the lunchpots as idiots.
32:17
Speaker 3: That's I mean, that's what mel Brooks in Spaceball write,
32:21
Speaker 3: Oh you got to come to the you know, the
32:22
Speaker 3: whole thing. And it's because that's the truth.
32:25
Speaker 2: Spaceballs a flamethrower. I still want that. I still want flame.
32:28
Speaker 2: I still want Spaceball's a flamethrower. It's with the kids.
32:30
Speaker 2: They love it. You know the deal? Do you know
32:34
Speaker 2: what the deal was with the Spaceballs? How George Lucas
32:36
Speaker 2: gave him rights to do it because he asked, do
32:39
Speaker 2: you know the whole star? I'mious on a side note, everybody,
32:42
Speaker 2: so Spaceballs. If you haven't seen Spaceball, go watch Spaceballs
32:44
Speaker 2: because it's amazing. But he called George Lucas, I'm gonna
32:48
Speaker 2: make this parody film on on Star Wars and I
32:50
Speaker 2: don't want to get sued. So what do we need
32:53
Speaker 2: to do here? Because he could arguably make it. But
32:55
Speaker 2: he goes, you can make it, but you can't sell
32:58
Speaker 2: any merchandise. That's why you can't. You never see Spaceball's
33:01
Speaker 2: merchandise anywhere. And that's that was the deal. So that's
33:05
Speaker 2: why you and that that he completely made a joke
33:07
Speaker 2: of it because all those cool things that you saw
33:09
Speaker 2: in the movie, all that merch I would have who
33:12
Speaker 2: wouldn't have killed against? I think there's some stuff now
33:14
Speaker 2: that comes out everyone. I'm sure.
33:16
Speaker 3: I'm sure if I look on Etsy, I could find that.
33:18
Speaker 2: Oh you can find something, but no mass. No mass at.
33:21
Speaker 3: The time of the release, searching Etsy for flamethrowers exactly.
33:26
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sure somebody has made this make small flamethrower.
33:30
Speaker 3: I can only get it if it's attached to a drone.
33:33
Speaker 2: Obviously, you know how that goes, all right, So with
33:36
Speaker 2: so we've we've obviously told everybody the world is coming
33:38
Speaker 2: to an end. Well, we'll never make any money online anymore.
33:40
Speaker 2: I get all the way.
33:41
Speaker 3: So no, but I do, I do agree way I
33:43
Speaker 3: want to just I just want to pause and just
33:44
Speaker 3: jump back to something that you said, which you was
33:47
Speaker 3: talking about the bigger industry. But I also think it
33:50
Speaker 3: applies to indie filmmakers, where the easier you make it
33:54
Speaker 3: for UH users or audience to view your content, yes,
33:59
Speaker 3: the more audience are going to get yes. And so
34:04
Speaker 3: you know, I initially was not the biggest fan of
34:07
Speaker 3: sort of ad based video on demand because you get
34:10
Speaker 3: paid pennies. However, the amount of people who watch that
34:14
Speaker 3: because they don't want to spend you know, five dollars
34:17
Speaker 3: ten dollars two ninety nine for something that if you
34:21
Speaker 3: can get them to those free sites, that's how the
34:25
Speaker 3: indie filmmakers I think are going to make the money.
34:28
Speaker 3: And as you said, sort of leveraging, right, leveraging one
34:32
Speaker 3: film to make the next one, and so in that
34:36
Speaker 3: that's that's one of the things. The goal of copyright
34:38
Speaker 3: slap was is to sort of play whack a mole
34:42
Speaker 3: and make it much easier to whack that mole if
34:45
Speaker 3: everybody knows that game. If not, then I'm just making
34:48
Speaker 3: really weird references. But to sort of send out as
34:53
Speaker 3: many DMCA violation notices as easy as possible to get
34:59
Speaker 3: these things take and down work.
35:01
Speaker 2: So this is the counter This is how you counter
35:04
Speaker 2: online piracy. It's just sending out these notices. But do
35:06
Speaker 2: they actually take them down?
35:08
Speaker 3: So there's we are running statistics, but we'd say about
35:13
Speaker 3: sixty percent, if not a little bit more, take them
35:15
Speaker 3: down as soon as they get it. Now, will they
35:19
Speaker 3: put it up the next week? We don't have the
35:22
Speaker 3: numbers on that, but they will take it down pretty
35:24
Speaker 3: easily because they don't care. Literally, it's more hassle to
35:27
Speaker 3: them to potentially deal with somebody bothering them than to
35:33
Speaker 3: just comply. And they know they got to get If
35:35
Speaker 3: they put it up again a week or two weeks
35:37
Speaker 3: or a month later, then that has to be found
35:39
Speaker 3: and it has to happen, but then they can take
35:40
Speaker 3: it down again. And so how it works is, yeah,
35:44
Speaker 3: you get the DMCA violation notice. Now, as you sort
35:48
Speaker 3: of said at the beginning of this podcast, depends where
35:50
Speaker 3: the server is though, because the DMCA is a US law. However,
35:56
Speaker 3: there are many international treaty that then relate to copyright
36:02
Speaker 3: and so a lot of countries respect it. Some don't,
36:05
Speaker 3: and they're super annoying. I won't name those countries, but
36:08
Speaker 3: they're like, if you have uh, you know, two signatures
36:12
Speaker 3: by a notary and you have a court document and I,
36:15
Speaker 3: then we'll consider taking it down. And I was like, ah, well,
36:18
Speaker 3: don't worry because covers app also sends all these sites
36:21
Speaker 3: to the Intellectual Property Division of uh the United States
36:27
Speaker 3: of Defense. So yeah, well you just talked to them exactly,
36:31
Speaker 3: but yeah, so you have that if they do take
36:35
Speaker 3: it down, great, If they don't take it down. Then technically,
36:39
Speaker 3: if you, as a copyright holder, have a copyright uh
36:43
Speaker 3: for the for the beeast. So this is this is
36:46
Speaker 3: one sort of aspect of the of the law. You
36:48
Speaker 3: cannot sue for copyright infringement unless you have a copyright
36:53
Speaker 3: on the the item that you are you want to
36:57
Speaker 3: you want to take legal action off. Now you do
36:59
Speaker 3: own the copyright, but to take legal action, it needs
37:02
Speaker 3: to be copyright registered. Wait you do the read registered? Yeah,
37:05
Speaker 3: which is you know it's what twenty dollars? It needed
37:08
Speaker 3: thirty five now, yeah, okay, it's gone up. Back in
37:11
Speaker 3: my day.
37:12
Speaker 2: Back in my day, it was twenty dollars. Yeah. And
37:16
Speaker 2: by the way, just so everybody knows, in regards to copyrighting,
37:19
Speaker 2: you when you apply for the copyright, you're protected from
37:23
Speaker 2: the moment you've submitted and paid for the thing, because
37:26
Speaker 2: it will take six to eight months to actually get
37:28
Speaker 2: if you're lucky, the actual copyright certificate back.
37:32
Speaker 3: And on top of it, I believe it's ninety days.
37:37
Speaker 3: I have to verify that. But if you have copyright infringement,
37:41
Speaker 3: if you register the copyright within ninety days of the infringement,
37:45
Speaker 3: you can still take legal action from something that happened
37:48
Speaker 3: ninety days ago. No photographers do that because photography is
37:53
Speaker 3: got huge piracy online.
37:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I've as far as piracy photography
37:59
Speaker 2: is concerned, like, if you have a DMCA notice and like,
38:03
Speaker 2: hey man, you're using a photo of mine on your website,
38:05
Speaker 2: take it down, that's pretty much the end of the conversation.
38:08
Speaker 2: Right they can get can they assue you?
38:11
Speaker 3: So well, here's here's where it gets interesting with photographers.
38:16
Speaker 3: If a website is using it specifically for commercial value,
38:20
Speaker 3: then you have so essentially some company, one of the
38:26
Speaker 3: famous ones company is selling skateboards and a photographer took
38:30
Speaker 3: a picture of a skateboarder, and the company used the photo,
38:37
Speaker 3: took the photo from Instagram from that professional photographer, and
38:41
Speaker 3: then essentially made an ad and posted it to Instagram.
38:43
Speaker 3: It was like, yeah, blah blah blah, look at our
38:45
Speaker 3: our you know, our skates. And just because it had
38:49
Speaker 3: their you know, skateboarding wheels or board or whatever in
38:52
Speaker 3: it doesn't mean that they have the right to use
38:55
Speaker 3: somebody's photograph. So this person contacted them is like, hey,
38:59
Speaker 3: you're using my com in an ad, So either this
39:03
Speaker 3: is a reasonable amount that you should pay me for
39:05
Speaker 3: that use or I'm going to assue you. And even
39:08
Speaker 3: if they take it down, they already use it in
39:10
Speaker 3: an ad. They are generating income for a company, right,
39:14
Speaker 3: so you get so that gives a photographers get a
39:16
Speaker 3: little bit more leverage. It's a little bit harder for
39:19
Speaker 3: in the filmmaking world because it's not really an ad.
39:22
Speaker 3: It's content that they're reposting.
39:25
Speaker 2: Right except but yeah, but like if you have but
39:27
Speaker 2: like a lot of news organizations use you know, blogs
39:30
Speaker 2: use images constantly from anywhere anywhere.
39:33
Speaker 3: And yeah, and so then you can, you know, DMCA,
39:36
Speaker 3: or you can sort of DMCA slash have you know,
39:40
Speaker 3: an attorney friend write a note saying, hey, you use this,
39:43
Speaker 3: we would like to be compensated.
39:45
Speaker 2: And then that so it becomes a question like is
39:47
Speaker 2: this going to be worth going to court for?
39:49
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, And so usually you ask for a little
39:51
Speaker 3: less than you might get a settlement, and therefore you
39:54
Speaker 3: have an advantage. So the DMCA says, if somebody is
39:57
Speaker 3: violating your copyright, you can for up to thirty thousand
40:02
Speaker 3: dollars per occurrence.
40:05
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
40:12
Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
40:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, and One of the great things of the COVID
40:20
Speaker 3: nineteen relief bill that was passed this past December is
40:24
Speaker 3: something called the Case Act, and that initiated for the
40:29
Speaker 3: first time in the United States a Small Claims Copyright Court.
40:33
Speaker 3: Now it's it's in the process of being set up
40:35
Speaker 3: right now, but it essentially allows smaller kind of indie
40:42
Speaker 3: copyright holders to go put forth a claim to I
40:47
Speaker 3: believe it's three not judge, I guess judges, three judges
40:52
Speaker 3: who are you know, people who judiciate this copyright content,
40:58
Speaker 3: and then the defend and can send in documents and
41:02
Speaker 3: this three in judges make a decision and they can
41:07
Speaker 3: then find in favor of the copyright in front the
41:11
Speaker 3: person whose copyright was infringed, and it can be up
41:14
Speaker 3: to fifteen thousand dollars. So one of the biggest hurdles
41:17
Speaker 3: usually for copyright holders in going beyond just a simple
41:22
Speaker 3: DMCA violation notice is you have to pay for an attorney,
41:27
Speaker 3: you have to pay a lot of court fees, and
41:31
Speaker 3: so that was hard. So this small Claims Court sort
41:33
Speaker 3: of opens the door and allows the smaller guy to
41:37
Speaker 3: be able to fight against these Now, the heart the
41:41
Speaker 3: other ASTERIXL throne there is. Finding who is behind these
41:45
Speaker 3: streaming sites is hard, right because you've got to figure
41:48
Speaker 3: out who you're suing right now if it's you know,
41:54
Speaker 3: sometimes if you if you dig into the who is
41:58
Speaker 3: information on a site, somebody is not smart enough to
42:02
Speaker 3: hide the fact that their email address and their and
42:05
Speaker 3: their name and address are the admin email address kind
42:09
Speaker 3: of buried in there. You can you know, screenshot, keep
42:12
Speaker 3: that and then maybe use it as an attack m
42:16
Speaker 3: But it's hard because you have to have a lawsuit
42:20
Speaker 3: against somebody to be able to get money, right, you
42:23
Speaker 3: have to figure out where those assets are, and they
42:25
Speaker 3: hide a lot so one of the other So that
42:29
Speaker 3: is the hard side of it. One of the other things, though,
42:31
Speaker 3: that we try to do is different is since we
42:36
Speaker 3: care more about Batman's style revenge on these pirates than
42:42
Speaker 3: necessarily making a lot of money. Beyond the fat fact
42:45
Speaker 3: that we we I guess sell our service for very inexpensive.
42:49
Speaker 3: We also compile a blacklist of piracy sites that we
42:53
Speaker 3: find from our users interactions anonymously sort of figuring out
42:59
Speaker 3: which one are just pure piracy sites, and then we
43:03
Speaker 3: take that list in once a month we send to
43:06
Speaker 3: essentially the Internet Crimes Division of the United States and
43:09
Speaker 3: say here is a list of the sites that we
43:15
Speaker 3: know are illegal, please take action. And they've been open
43:20
Speaker 3: to that. It's hard to keep track of like if
43:23
Speaker 3: they do anything, but they are open to us sending
43:27
Speaker 3: a file and we give it into format so they
43:30
Speaker 3: can integrate it into their system very easily. So we
43:33
Speaker 3: sort of are pushing to do things like that because
43:36
Speaker 3: that'll have more of an impact if we can just
43:38
Speaker 3: take down a whole site.
43:40
Speaker 2: Well, of course, because if there thinks out tens of thousands,
43:42
Speaker 2: if not more films that have been put up there,
43:45
Speaker 2: it's fascinating. And so so copyright slap dot com, what's
43:51
Speaker 2: the process, What does filmmakers have to do to use
43:53
Speaker 2: your service? And how does it work?
43:56
Speaker 3: So it's as simple as we possibly could make it.
44:00
Speaker 3: So yeah, copyright slap dot com and you just go
44:04
Speaker 3: and you register as a user, and then once you've registered,
44:07
Speaker 3: you can initiate a new project or start a new project.
44:11
Speaker 3: Project essentially is your film or we were expanding into
44:14
Speaker 3: books because online literary piracy is a big thing. We're
44:18
Speaker 3: slowly sort of expanding as much as we can to
44:20
Speaker 3: protect different copyright holders. So you register a project and you.
44:23
Speaker 3: Essentially we ask you for the specific information needed to
44:27
Speaker 3: fill out a DMCA violation form, as you know the
44:30
Speaker 3: title of the film, when it was published, the original
44:33
Speaker 3: location of where the film can be found, be it
44:36
Speaker 3: the film's website or the Amazon Prime link or something
44:40
Speaker 3: like that, and then you submit that it saves and
44:45
Speaker 3: you started this new project, and then we run in
44:48
Speaker 3: thirty day cycles. They can click and activate the project.
44:54
Speaker 3: Our normal thirty day cycle is twenty dollars for unlimited
44:58
Speaker 3: number of takedowns. To put that in perspective, one of
45:01
Speaker 3: the reasons when I was starting out didn't go to
45:04
Speaker 3: a site like this is it was essentially our competitors
45:09
Speaker 3: charge just under two hundred dollars. I believe it's one
45:11
Speaker 3: hundred and ninety nine dollars per single takedown of Jesus
45:15
Speaker 3: Christ's particular. There are some that are a little bit
45:18
Speaker 3: less expensive, but then you have to enter all of
45:20
Speaker 3: the information that we ask for once every time, and
45:23
Speaker 3: you have to do like jump through a number of hoops.
45:26
Speaker 3: So our goal is like make it as simple as possible,
45:28
Speaker 3: So for us, it's twenty dollars and then whatever you
45:32
Speaker 3: find online as a URL, that's an infringement. You can
45:35
Speaker 3: just copy and paste that into a form we have
45:38
Speaker 3: you hit enter and we take care of everything, and
45:40
Speaker 3: then we also keep track of it. And essentially we
45:43
Speaker 3: have a system where if there's a contact info directly
45:46
Speaker 3: for the website owner, they get a DMCA violation of this.
45:49
Speaker 3: If they don't comply, then we escalate it, allow the
45:54
Speaker 3: user to escalate it, and that goes to the online
45:57
Speaker 3: service provider, the person hosting the website. And one of
46:01
Speaker 3: our goals is if the website owner may ignore it,
46:05
Speaker 3: but the online service provider doesn't want to legal content
46:08
Speaker 3: on their server. And there are certain laws that say
46:11
Speaker 3: if you're a winger that somebody is hosting illegal activity,
46:16
Speaker 3: you are not allowed to host.
46:17
Speaker 2: Them, or you're going to get you're liable.
46:23
Speaker 3: And there's so I'm going to add to it. There
46:28
Speaker 3: is a bill sort of coming out or a up
46:31
Speaker 3: for discussion, an update to the Digital Millennial Copyright Act.
46:36
Speaker 3: So Senator Tom Tillis from North Carolina have put forth
46:41
Speaker 3: at the beginning of this year, at the end of
46:43
Speaker 3: last year, the Digital Copyright Act of twenty twenty one,
46:46
Speaker 3: and that is aiming to update the DMCA so that
46:51
Speaker 3: these online service providers can't hide from when they know
46:56
Speaker 3: there's a legal activity that the loopholes that a lot
46:59
Speaker 3: of places get away with because the copyright the MCA
47:05
Speaker 3: was written in nineteen ninety eight sort of closing those
47:09
Speaker 3: so it's not as easy for them to hide without
47:13
Speaker 3: being illegal immediately. And yeah, so we sent Yeah, so
47:19
Speaker 3: we send to the website owners. Then we send to
47:23
Speaker 3: the online service providers. Sometimes they're multiple and if there's
47:31
Speaker 3: sort of two levels there. The website owners sometimes they
47:34
Speaker 3: reply back and they're like, we took care of but
47:35
Speaker 3: it's gone, stop bugging us. And then if they don't,
47:39
Speaker 3: sometimes the service providers go, well, we've removed that account,
47:42
Speaker 3: and so then that actually ends up taking down the
47:44
Speaker 3: website or taking down the page at least, but not
47:52
Speaker 3: even the website doing it, just these the online service
47:55
Speaker 3: providers like, we're going to we're going to remove this
47:57
Speaker 3: entire website if you don't comply with this. So then
47:59
Speaker 3: they can apply. And one of the features that we
48:02
Speaker 3: are in the works of adding right now so this
48:05
Speaker 3: will be dated hopefully in within the next couple to
48:09
Speaker 3: few weeks, is the ability for if the online service
48:13
Speaker 3: providers don't respond and help get it taken down, that
48:17
Speaker 3: users will be able to send every thirty days violation
48:21
Speaker 3: notices to everybody associated with the website. And the goal
48:25
Speaker 3: of that one is if every thirty if we can
48:27
Speaker 3: be annoying enough that they get enough notices saying they're
48:33
Speaker 3: in violation, that they will just take it down so
48:36
Speaker 3: that they don't have to deal with the users.
48:39
Speaker 4: Interesting, well, you're you are you are the batman of
48:42
Speaker 4: cop No no man, I mean, you are a vicious
48:46
Speaker 4: It makes me angry, I'm And the more ways that
48:48
Speaker 4: we can, we can, you know, go and help get
48:51
Speaker 4: them taken down.
48:52
Speaker 3: I just I you know, it's it's when when you
48:58
Speaker 3: see how it impacts your film, right, mean, these indie
49:00
Speaker 3: well a lot of these indie films go straight to
49:02
Speaker 3: straight to video on demand, and it's like you put
49:05
Speaker 3: your sweat and blood into this and this is your
49:08
Speaker 3: passion and you care so much, and then somebody's gonna
49:11
Speaker 3: come and steal it and then they get it for
49:14
Speaker 3: free and you already are making it free for people,
49:16
Speaker 3: like come on.
49:17
Speaker 2: It's enough, you know, yeah, well listen.
49:20
Speaker 3: And they don't need to make their billions of dollars.
49:22
Speaker 3: You just need to be able to make you know,
49:24
Speaker 3: make your money back and make sure you've paid all
49:26
Speaker 3: of your cast and crew and that they've been happy,
49:29
Speaker 3: and that maybe you make a potentially I mean, fingers crossed.
49:34
Speaker 3: This is not the thing that always happens. Fingers cross
49:36
Speaker 3: you make a profit, so that you could then put
49:37
Speaker 3: that towards the next film. Stop it stops.
49:41
Speaker 2: You're talking. Just you talk, crazy talk. It's crazy talk,
49:45
Speaker 2: crazy talk. It's all the same. Look Tebra per am,
49:50
Speaker 2: I the only one I aveted the piano. Okay, you
49:52
Speaker 2: had to.
49:54
Speaker 3: Time. Now is there a you mentioned they might be
49:59
Speaker 3: because I was read friend sing it per commentary.
50:02
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
50:08
Speaker 2: and now back to the show. Yes, exactly. Wow, Wow,
50:14
Speaker 2: let's all sing the Happy Birthday song.
50:17
Speaker 3: So that's now legal though that's not legal? Oh yeah.
50:20
Speaker 3: A couple of years ago it turned out that they
50:23
Speaker 3: the author of it, had released it publicly like hundreds
50:28
Speaker 3: of like one hundred years ago, and they were illegally
50:30
Speaker 3: collecting copyright for it.
50:33
Speaker 2: Oh wow, So now you can use the Happy Birthday
50:35
Speaker 2: again and you can.
50:37
Speaker 3: Sing Happy Birthday without owing anybody money.
50:39
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. Now you said earlier off air that you
50:45
Speaker 2: have a promo code for any Indie Film Huszle tribe
50:47
Speaker 2: members if they want to get their film uh you know,
50:51
Speaker 2: work copyrights, use copyright slap to help protect their films online.
50:56
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, as I said, we made very inexpensive, so
51:00
Speaker 3: twenty dollars a month, but we created a special Indie
51:03
Speaker 3: Film Hustle promo code. So I'm going to tell you
51:05
Speaker 3: that code should be pretty easy for everybody. It is
51:08
Speaker 3: Indie Film Hustle all one word, all lowercase. Yes, that
51:13
Speaker 3: is the proper code, and that's entered when they activate
51:16
Speaker 3: a project, and that will give them three months at
51:19
Speaker 3: fifty percent of the actually, so ten dollars a month
51:23
Speaker 3: for three months and they'll use all three months. You
51:26
Speaker 3: could use it one month and you know stop and truthfully,
51:31
Speaker 3: if you if you use it for even a single day,
51:33
Speaker 3: you can you can enter and send DMCA violation notices
51:37
Speaker 3: to every single person infringing on your your site or
51:42
Speaker 3: your content in that day because there's no limit and
51:46
Speaker 3: it's no extra cost, you know, per one. We have
51:49
Speaker 3: we have a number of users who they use it
51:51
Speaker 3: every three months. They sign in for one month, they
51:54
Speaker 3: spend a few days and they enter every single illegal
51:58
Speaker 3: thing and they update, you know, things that haven't been
52:01
Speaker 3: complied with, they escalate and then they you know, they
52:05
Speaker 3: stop using it for a couple of months and then
52:06
Speaker 3: come back, you know, three months later and say, Okay,
52:09
Speaker 3: I'm gonna use it again. And here's another story.
52:11
Speaker 2: Bucks less rock and roll.
52:12
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and it has had an impact with my
52:16
Speaker 3: films in getting them off of streaming sites. And it's
52:20
Speaker 3: you know, I think it also it depends on the
52:23
Speaker 3: genre of film and and also the length of time
52:28
Speaker 3: it's been online, you know, the logger it's been online.
52:30
Speaker 3: If you've been able to squash these sites from adding
52:34
Speaker 3: the content and they've taken it down, then they're less
52:37
Speaker 3: likely to put it back up. But if it's you know,
52:40
Speaker 3: if it's newer and been there for the last number
52:43
Speaker 3: of years, you know, it's probably already been up and
52:47
Speaker 3: people keep adding it. One thing we have seen is
52:50
Speaker 3: because of the pandemic and people are at home more,
52:53
Speaker 3: it's not just it's not just the action or horror
52:57
Speaker 3: films that are gaining the content. It is it's sort
53:01
Speaker 3: of everything everything is up in getting pirated. I mean,
53:06
Speaker 3: we had one person who it's uh it was, yeah,
53:09
Speaker 3: a documentary and they were like, we are seeing so
53:12
Speaker 3: much piracy. I mean, you know, I won't tooot our
53:15
Speaker 3: own horns, but it was, you know, we love your
53:17
Speaker 3: site because we can put in so many you know,
53:20
Speaker 3: takedowns every single day, but like, is this normal to
53:24
Speaker 3: have this much piracy? And unfortunately, because of the pandemic
53:28
Speaker 3: and sort of the switch over to two people watching
53:32
Speaker 3: a lot, you know, at home, it's up so much.
53:36
Speaker 3: It's it's I mean, it's also it's also up more
53:38
Speaker 3: on the on the Amazon Primes, on the two BtVS
53:41
Speaker 3: as well, which is good for filmmakers. It's just frustrating
53:44
Speaker 3: because it's like, just give me one penny, Just give
53:47
Speaker 3: me one penny for every hour you watch and it'll help.
53:51
Speaker 2: Which is essentially which is essentially what Amazon Prime is
53:53
Speaker 2: paying you if you could either get your film on
53:55
Speaker 2: Amazon Prime anymore.
53:56
Speaker 3: And that's a whole other conversation.
53:59
Speaker 2: But there is a lot of there's a lot of
54:00
Speaker 2: ways you can still make money with your film, especially
54:04
Speaker 2: avad is the future. I think that is where a
54:06
Speaker 2: lot of money is being made right now. It's the
54:07
Speaker 2: strongest sector for independent filmmakers doing or trying to make
54:13
Speaker 2: money in vod because s VOD if you can get
54:16
Speaker 2: a deal. Great, but that's rare. H. T VOT is dead,
54:21
Speaker 2: it's essentially almost dead. But TVA exactly transactional like paying
54:26
Speaker 2: two ninety nine. I've always stold people. I'm like, ti
54:28
Speaker 2: vot is just a holdover from the Blockbuster video store days.
54:31
Speaker 2: That's all it is. It's just you're holding it over.
54:33
Speaker 2: It's an older concept. And I don't know, I mean,
54:38
Speaker 2: how did you have any numbers on how these these
54:41
Speaker 2: Disney Because I know Disney's like releasing the premium for
54:44
Speaker 2: like twenty bucks a pop or something like that, Like
54:47
Speaker 2: they're gonna do that with Black Widow. Like Black Widow
54:49
Speaker 2: I think might actually get some money. Like a good
54:53
Speaker 2: amount of people might might pay to see Black Widow
54:56
Speaker 2: because it's a Marvel movie. So it's a it's the
54:58
Speaker 2: first real test because they did it with you know,
55:01
Speaker 2: a couple.
55:01
Speaker 3: Of Wonder Woman nineteen eighty four.
55:03
Speaker 2: But that wasn't a paid a Bousan paid now. No, No,
55:05
Speaker 2: that was free, Max, Yeah, that was free. Now I'm
55:07
Speaker 2: talking about like paying twenty bones up front right away,
55:11
Speaker 2: and the only place you can get it is by
55:13
Speaker 2: paying the twenty bucks for that thirty or sixty day
55:15
Speaker 2: window I think the Marvel movie will pro and we're
55:18
Speaker 2: so hot, like we're hungry for Marvel.
55:21
Speaker 3: I think I think all the people with their home theaters,
55:24
Speaker 3: it's in there. I do think it's I do think
55:27
Speaker 3: that will be more popular once the once we get
55:29
Speaker 3: over this hurdle of the pandemic where you can actually
55:32
Speaker 3: watch things as groups, you know, like, oh, I'm gonna
55:35
Speaker 3: pay forty dollars, but we got you know, seven friends
55:38
Speaker 3: over and we're chilling. That works a lot easier than
55:41
Speaker 3: I'm gonna pay forty dollars and it's me by myself
55:44
Speaker 3: or like, you know, me and my significant other right
55:47
Speaker 3: that it's it's a little bit harder. Yeah, I mean,
55:50
Speaker 3: I think I don't have any specific numbers, but I
55:53
Speaker 3: know for the HBO Max is, they've been pretty happy, oh,
55:56
Speaker 3: on their individual releases because it gets people to join
56:00
Speaker 3: the subscription, and usually it's it's all about getting people
56:04
Speaker 3: to join because maybe their retention rate is forty percent,
56:07
Speaker 3: but they got supporting that more than they normally would have.
56:10
Speaker 3: You know, no, what is BO Max.
56:13
Speaker 2: What HBO Max has done, man is is I mean
56:15
Speaker 2: it's pissed off a lot of filmmakers, a lot of
56:18
Speaker 2: big time filmmakers and and and actors and stuff because
56:21
Speaker 2: they're not getting their normal paydays. But i've off off
56:29
Speaker 2: off record, but I can't say who, but the payments
56:33
Speaker 2: that I've heard from people on the inside of these
56:37
Speaker 2: actors because they all get bonuses based on box office
56:41
Speaker 2: when that was taken off, They're like, look, we're just
56:43
Speaker 2: going to give you a X dollar to just be happy.
56:46
Speaker 2: You good with that?
56:47
Speaker 3: Well, well, I mean so yeah, there's well, there's a
56:50
Speaker 3: number of things. I'm I'm pretty active in the SAG
56:53
Speaker 3: after the film and TV radio union, and one of
56:57
Speaker 3: the big gains that they gained in their last TV
57:00
Speaker 3: theatrical negotiations was they had the foresight to say, Okay, yeah.
57:05
Speaker 2: We're cool with you know, theatrical and.
57:08
Speaker 3: We and releases and we you know that's important, but
57:11
Speaker 3: we want to talk about streaming and online usage. And
57:15
Speaker 3: that was their big focus and I think it is
57:17
Speaker 3: going to is paying off a lot better because that
57:19
Speaker 3: was their shift in Okay, we got to make sure
57:22
Speaker 3: that actors are covered here. And that was before the pandemic,
57:26
Speaker 3: and it was just you know, that's the trend that
57:28
Speaker 3: things are going. I think I think the movies that
57:31
Speaker 3: will be big for you know, the releases directly online
57:38
Speaker 3: like The Black Widow are going to be the same
57:40
Speaker 3: movies that will do well in theaters that you know
57:42
Speaker 3: you want to see with a you know, a big
57:45
Speaker 3: screen and surround sound. That I mean I went last
57:49
Speaker 3: I saw. I remember seeing Captain Marvel in the theaters
57:54
Speaker 3: and in the last ten minutes somebody let their kid
57:56
Speaker 3: run up but now in the aisle screaming, and I
57:58
Speaker 3: was like, are you kidding me? Like, I'm here, this
58:01
Speaker 3: is my movie experience.
58:03
Speaker 2: And I paid, I paid good money to be here.
58:05
Speaker 2: Oh no, dude, don't even get me start.
58:06
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm like an Alamo draft House. This is
58:09
Speaker 3: not an ad for Alama draft House. I have no
58:11
Speaker 3: association with them. But the fact that day at the
58:13
Speaker 3: beginning are like, if you answer a cell phone call,
58:16
Speaker 3: we will kick you out. If you open your cell
58:18
Speaker 3: phone and we see the screen on, we'll give you
58:20
Speaker 3: a warning and then we'll kick you out and you
58:21
Speaker 3: don't get your money back. I'm like, yes, because it's
58:25
Speaker 3: like I'm paid, I paid me here, and I think,
58:28
Speaker 3: you know it's it's changing the types of movies do
58:31
Speaker 3: you need to see, you know, a comedy in a
58:35
Speaker 3: big screen. Huh. But like you know endgame, Oh, I.
58:39
Speaker 2: Mean can you oh God, of course.
58:41
Speaker 3: Like Alatar back you know, back in the day when
58:44
Speaker 3: that came out, Like I saw Avatar in three D twice,
58:46
Speaker 3: just because there's it's an experience.
58:48
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's a ry at that. Yeah, you
58:51
Speaker 2: can't get that at home, no matter how insane. I mean,
58:54
Speaker 2: unless you have literally an IMAX at your house. It
58:56
Speaker 2: really is not.
58:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna lie. I've got a
59:00
Speaker 3: I've got a projector and it's it's probably set up
59:03
Speaker 3: for a fifteen foot diagonal screen, and I've got five
59:07
Speaker 3: point one surround sound, well five point zero because I
59:10
Speaker 3: removed my soubble for because of neighbors. But you know,
59:16
Speaker 3: I've got like it's you know, if I'm watching a movie,
59:19
Speaker 3: I make my own popcorn. We can we can, you know,
59:21
Speaker 3: we can, we can chill. There's nobody screaming, and compared
59:26
Speaker 3: to some of the smaller theaters in New York. Actually
59:29
Speaker 3: the screen size might be comparable.
59:30
Speaker 2: Compare and the sound experience might be comparable. Look, at
59:33
Speaker 2: the end of the day, I don't think theatricals ever
59:35
Speaker 2: going to go away completely I think they'll always go
59:37
Speaker 2: some way, just like like Broadway. Still Broadway. People still
59:39
Speaker 2: paying amount of money. But I think it's because the
59:42
Speaker 2: price of those tickets are going to go up. It's
59:44
Speaker 2: going to be much more of an experience in the
59:45
Speaker 2: days of going to go see, you know, a comedy
59:48
Speaker 2: of like Dumb and Dumber at the theater and spending
59:52
Speaker 2: twenty five bucks to go see a comedy or even
59:56
Speaker 2: a drama at the theater unless you're hardcore cinophile. We'll
1:00:01
Speaker 2: be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
1:00:07
Speaker 2: now back to the show. Most people are being like,
1:00:11
Speaker 2: know what, I'm good. I'm good at.
1:00:12
Speaker 3: Home, unless the theater industry pivots, if they pivot and
1:00:16
Speaker 3: everything becomes like the Alamo Draft Horse have Alamo Draft
1:00:19
Speaker 3: House where there's you know, a restaurant link to it
1:00:23
Speaker 3: or a bar, and you can bring your food and
1:00:25
Speaker 3: you can bring your drinks, and they make money off
1:00:27
Speaker 3: of the food sales like they do now except for
1:00:30
Speaker 3: the you know, the theaters that make money off their food.
1:00:33
Speaker 3: Now it's popcorn and candy that's not necessarily for everybody
1:00:36
Speaker 3: and way over priced, but if it's reasonably priced and
1:00:39
Speaker 3: they're making their money because people want to come and
1:00:41
Speaker 3: they want the experience. It's that's a way to keep
1:00:44
Speaker 3: it going.
1:00:45
Speaker 2: It's gonna keep going, It's gonna ge qu Anyway, we
1:00:47
Speaker 2: have veered off the copyright path a bit. It's just
1:00:50
Speaker 2: now two film geeks talking about the business. But anyway,
1:00:52
Speaker 2: Evan man, thank you so much for you know, being
1:00:55
Speaker 2: that night avenger for copyrights. You are. You are the
1:00:59
Speaker 2: dark Knight. I appreciate what you're doing man, and helping
1:01:02
Speaker 2: filmmakers out when you reached out to me a while ago.
1:01:06
Speaker 2: Now we've been trying to see this interview for a minute,
1:01:09
Speaker 2: but when I saw it, I was like, man, this
1:01:11
Speaker 2: is so desperately needed and I want to get the
1:01:14
Speaker 2: word out on this. So thank you so much for
1:01:16
Speaker 2: what you do, brother, and keep up the good fight,
1:01:18
Speaker 2: my friend.
1:01:19
Speaker 3: Now, keep and keep making films. Anybody listening, keep making films.
1:01:23
Speaker 3: Don't let them keep you down. Thanks man, Thank you.
1:01:26
Speaker 2: I want to thank Evan for coming on the show
1:01:28
Speaker 2: and dropping his copyright knowledge bombs on the Tribe today.
1:01:32
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Evan for not only being on
1:01:34
Speaker 2: the show, but being that avenger of the independent filmmaker
1:01:39
Speaker 2: and helping us fight these pirates online. Thank you so much, Evan.
1:01:43
Speaker 2: If you want to get links to anything we spoke
1:01:45
Speaker 2: about in this episode, including how to sign up for
1:01:47
Speaker 2: copyright slap, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof
1:01:50
Speaker 2: Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three eighty seven. Thank you
1:01:54
Speaker 2: so much for listening, guys, As always, keep on writing
1:01:57
Speaker 2: no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
1:01:59
Speaker 1: Thanks are listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
1:02:03
Speaker 1: Screenwriting dot tv.