Latest / Teachers Talk Radio / Teaching on an Off Day - How Educators Keep Going: The Late Late Show with Seema Aggarwal

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Teaching on an Off Day - How Educators Keep Going: The Late Late Show with Seema Aggarwal · Teachers Talk Radio

0:00
Welcome to TKO Talk Radio! Thank you for listening!
0:45
Outstanding and world-class vision and world-classness. I'm a real leadership geek, honestly.
0:51
I've spent my whole career reading books and chatting to people.
0:54
I just find the whole thing and the announcement, the way it's been announced, bizarre.
0:58
If you could move away from a model where teachers are so intensely focused.
1:10
Okay, hi everyone and welcome again to my show. It's The Late Late Show with me, Seema Agawal.
1:18
And today we're going to be talking about having an off day.
1:23
And this topic came about because I was having one myself.
1:27
I think my colleague Iridah was as well, a little bit kind of.
1:31
And we were just talking about it as we were, I think we were on the way out
1:36
from work and I bumped into her.
1:39
We were both probably the last ones in the building.
1:41
And yeah, and then we just sort of had a chat about it.
1:44
And then when I was on the train going home, I thought, actually,
1:48
that would make a really good topic for the show.
1:51
And so I emailed Irida, and we've talked together with Joe.
1:57
And I thought, you know what, this would be a really cool conversation for us all to get involved in.
2:02
So hi, Irida. Hi, Joe, welcome to the show.
2:05
Hello, thanks for having us. Thanks for the invite. Hi everyone, thank you,
2:11
Yeah, great. Great to have you guys on. I was just talking to Joe and Irida
2:16
off air before we went live.
2:18
And I was saying that, you know, it's really bad, but I usually try to prepare
2:24
a bit for the show, you know, like an hour before or something.
2:29
But today I was, I was watching Line of Duty.
2:35
And it's really, really addictive. If you haven't seen it,
2:39
like I highly recommend it I know it's old I'm like
2:42
very late to the party I put it on for ages
2:45
because there's like six seasons and I thought no I just can't do it I'm gonna
2:50
end up binging it but yeah it's really really hard to turn off because it's
2:55
so intense and it's right up my street because it's all kind of like crime and
3:00
I've been avoiding it yeah exactly this reason Yeah, literally.
3:04
But when you start, Jo, like... Yeah, I know. It's a rabbit hole.
3:10
And six seasons is a lot as well, right? There's a lot to binge.
3:14
Yeah. Have you seen it, Irida? No, I haven't, but I binge watch a lot with my daughter.
3:20
So recently finished, yes, we finished one, yeah. So we like a bit of binge watching.
3:26
Oh, I love it. So you said that you're on a boat right now. Whereabouts are you?
3:32
I'm in Chesshunt, if I'm pronouncing it correctly.
3:36
So, like near Brothbourne, so Lee Valley, if everyone has been around, the kind of river Lee.
3:43
It's nice, it's beautiful, it's very peaceful. I've been on a friend's boat
3:47
in Chesshunt before, as well, actually, and yeah, it's gorgeous there.
3:51
It's surrounded by lakes, so it's really nice. Lots of birds and coots and ducks.
4:00
Yeah it's good you're having like a proper easter break then,
4:05
oh well i mean my previous week which was proper easter i was caught up in writing
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so yeah i try to i'm trying to take a few days now before we start the full-on
4:15
teaching next week yeah yeah and i heard you enjoyed the sunshine it was really
4:20
nice so that's that's pleasant.
4:23
Yeah i know it has the sun's been out for
4:25
the last couple of days hasn't it it's been really really nice it's
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but it's been such a like a huge transition because
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I think the other day it was like 25 or 26
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degrees yeah so it was
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like oh wow it feels like you know we're in summer but
4:41
then I think the temperature is going to go back down in yes so
4:45
yeah good fun good
4:48
fun Joe how's your Easter been so far
4:51
uh it's been good thanks I'm on dry
4:53
land at present so not quite as exciting as being
4:56
on a boat but we I did a digital detox
5:00
with my wife and our little puppy it was
5:03
a little Milo the puppy's first holiday away
5:06
and we went to Ashbourne Forest and it was it was really nice it
5:08
was really nice you got a puppy recently right
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yes he's six months old and he's equal
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parts angel and devil but yeah
5:18
he's but it was it was really nice he had to take him
5:21
out of the city for a bit uh he uh because
5:24
we're obviously we work together in london i'm based in london
5:26
as well but it's nice to kind of you know have a bit of a break from it all
5:29
but most of the time milo was either when he was outside he had his nose to
5:32
the ground or when we were inside we uh the cabin we're staying in had these
5:37
big windows and we called it he was what we like watching tv in quotation marks
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because he was he had his he was always staring outside and taking it all in
5:44
it was really sweet it was really sweet yeah,
5:46
And you said you were digital detox. Is that like when you just do like the no phones thing?
5:52
It sounds insufferable, but hear me out. Okay, hear me out.
5:56
So on LinkedIn, I don't know if you've seen Unplugged, the brand Unplugged,
6:00
they're quite vocal on there.
6:01
But their whole thing is about kind of disconnecting in order to reconnect and that sort of thing.
6:07
And we've done it before to the same cabin, actually.
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And the way that they kind of set up is that you lock your phone away for a
6:14
week in a wooden box and you know they
6:17
give you some like a survival kit and there's like a map and compass and coffee
6:22
that you grind yourself and that sort of thing but the whole point is to just
6:25
kind of get away from the hustle and bustle and after you know a few hours you
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start to get a bit twitchy reaching for your phone but after a couple days it's
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really it's really nice just to you can really feel like my brain like.
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I don't know just a pressure valve moving or.
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Something it was it was really interesting and like we've you know
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taking the puppy was really lovely as well oh wow
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that is like really cool so wait could you
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like unlock the box or yeah anytime
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anytime but the but then you're kind of because
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you're you're there and it's kind of designed that
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you're away from civilization but there are local
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local people and places nearby that if
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there was an accident you get given like you know you could contact them
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you're given like an old nokia as well in case oh
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you can play snake yeah well actually yeah they
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say that if you need to make an emergency in the
7:17
brochure it's like to make an emergency call brackets and or
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play snake so yeah we do
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we do teach our first years about digital
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disconnection and detox i didn't know they had a full-on first-hand
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experience positionality yeah maybe i can do it
7:33
yeah do a guest talk yeah i know
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how you know just talking about my holiday i don't know how relevant it
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was yeah right well
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let's get into the conversation then i
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mean like i i could probably just talk
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about you know series and you know digital
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detoxes for the rest of the show but yeah i'm really interested in this whole
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topic of having an off day but as I said I haven't really done my normal preparation.
8:03
Because of thanks to line of duty but yeah like do you remember the last time
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you had an off day Jo should we start with you.
8:12
Oh, I've never had an off day. Never, ever.
8:15
No, I think when you're having an off day, I think there's a bit of pressure
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nowadays to constantly perform at a particular level, right?
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But there's also a bit of pressure to kind of not really address it if you are
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kind of having one or not to really admit, you know, if you're not quite on
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it, or at least I feel like maybe it's an internalized pressure,
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but I feel that a little bit as well.
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But you know you have it you know it doesn't happen all the time but
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you know it's it's inevitable we're all kind of human and you
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know it might feel a little bit frustrating but at the same time
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it's an opportunity to you know maybe just go back to basics to
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remember you know remember why you're kind of doing education
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why you're doing this and also a lot of the time I think we're quite
8:56
harsh on ourselves and set quite high standards anyway
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so you know one person's off day might be another
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person's all right day solid day maybe a very
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good day but yeah so that's kind of my kind
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of approach to it I find it quite interesting just before
9:11
we go on a little bit just that you two this you came to this topic right because
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you bumped into each other and you're just having a conversation it's interesting
9:18
that you two when you were thinking of guests for off days I'm the first person
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that came to mind so yeah so just wanted to just mention that but no I think
9:28
no it was definitely not for that reason it was just the three of us talked together.
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For the first time and I just thought you know what
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let's do the three of us that'll be really fine yes I forgive
9:41
you I forgive you you're quite chilled actually Joe I think
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I can't imagine I think this is why I started
9:47
with you because I was thinking what would an off day for
9:49
Joe look like but then that could be that thing right where
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we don't really show it or admit it a lot
9:55
of the time and yeah and I think there's something true about what you said
9:59
about us being a bit harsh on ourselves sometimes you know where perhaps other
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people can't really perceive that or maybe we put more pressure on ourselves
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to perform than we need to i don't know irida what do you think,
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yeah i mean i i like their observation joe i think they're very spot on i am
10:22
a little bit more honest i think when it comes to off days right and it doesn't
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mean that it's negative i I think there's...
10:32
Teaching in a university has these very intense periods and sometimes I think
10:36
they are very demanding. So...
10:40
That those can be part of and i think that's how
10:43
our conversation started as you said earlier was one of
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the late evenings we're still in the office and
10:49
the empty building and felt a bit like oh maybe i should
10:52
have been home now so yeah i
10:56
i think an off day means that and sometimes i have
10:59
a day that i'm struggling to kind of you know
11:02
perform teaching is while having a
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number of other kind of to do in my list but often
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often that changes quite it can change
11:12
quite quickly and it really depends on the energy of the students and the people
11:16
around me so yeah I do feel that it's important to kind of embrace whatever
11:23
people call negative feelings right we can't always be hyper productive and
11:28
hyper excited and and that's important.
11:32
And when you say honest, would you say honest with yourself about it or are
11:36
you honest with the students about it too?
11:40
I mean, maybe I do overshare, but not in that level.
11:45
No, I think there's something right about the harshness that we try to be.
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Maybe we tend to be overcritical of how much.
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And because teaching, you need to
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kind of not inspire, but you need to be energetic and inspire, of course.
11:59
But you really need to be
12:02
in the space and kind of navigate and
12:06
speak to students and make
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them excited it and share your ideas and there are
12:12
times that that comes very naturally in times that it's
12:15
a bit more of a hard work and it changes
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and it depends and I think there's moments that sometimes you
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go in the classroom really tired and you
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come out and like oh you know that's why I love this job right
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you get excited by their ideas and their
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projects and you know the interactions and
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those are the very good moments I think in teaching but I
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think honest in the sense that I tend to be honest with
12:39
my colleagues and kind of appreciate that yeah
12:42
i may be honest with myself but yeah sometimes that
12:45
it's it's maybe maybe that's the the point we should
12:48
have today that it's okay to have an off day right yeah yeah
12:52
i mean i don't know like i ready to make an impact beyond the classroom aqa
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I think I'm honest with myself and my colleagues as well.
13:55
I don't think I would, but I don't think I've ever walked into a class and sort of said, No.
14:01
Yeah, I don't think I've ever walked into a class and sort of,
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not divulged anything, but even given a headline to say, oh,
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you know, I've got a lot going on today.
14:12
And I just, I can't see myself doing that because I think you're right.
14:16
There is a bit of a pressure to be energetic
14:19
and yeah i don't think i
14:22
could even walk into a class and be like yeah how's it
14:25
going guys yes i i don't know i i'm teaching 10 years and i don't think of maybe
14:33
when i've been ill but not really not in that in that in that kind of level
14:38
there is always like there's always a you go in the classroom it's like a performance
14:42
space right And that's not in a negative way,
14:44
but I think there is a bit of that. I don't know what you think.
14:47
Do you think that there is a bit of that when you teach?
14:51
Yeah i don't think so well just yeah it is it's it is a performance right because
14:58
you're trying to like i think that word you mentioned inspire you know that's
15:03
really that's so important,
15:04
and a way of doing that is to be enthusiastic um you know but you have to kind
15:09
of match that level of enthusiasm to the previous lectures that you've done
15:13
on this topic you know and you might have done you might have spoken about a
15:16
particular topic hundreds of
15:17
times but it's every time you have to deliver it and re-deliver. I think,
15:23
When I'm in the flow, I don't know how you guys find it, but when I'm in the
15:27
flow of teaching or lecturing, I'm okay.
15:30
Maybe an off day kind of comes at the start. I'm not sure, like the sense of offness.
15:35
It's kind of once you get over that hump, as it were, and you go into things,
15:39
then you're kind of performing on autopilot.
15:43
I don't know, that's kind of how it feels for me. But it's just kind of like
15:46
pushing through those maybe initial feelings of whatever it is, the lethargy.
15:51
You know you're not you don't feel as energetic as normal you don't you don't
15:55
feel sometimes it might be imposter syndrome as well you don't maybe don't feel
15:58
that you're the right person to be speaking about a particular topic or you're
16:02
not knowledgeable or that sort of thing and you know they i don't know it can
16:05
start to kind of spiral but then once once it's going you know
16:09
normally it's okay it's just about pushing through and and a lot of the time as well i think,
16:14
it's the self-pressure thing maybe colleagues
16:18
and students don't see it in the same way that you do you might walk away
16:21
and go god that was i was awful did you hear that and i stunned stumbled on
16:24
that and didn't say that i can't believe i didn't talk about that thing and
16:27
they go didn't notice anything seems seems your normal self so again it's a
16:33
maybe a balance between the internal kind of pressure and the external demands
16:38
of the performance that is constantly constantly.
16:41
Balancing yeah can i can i jump in on there because i really like the the kind
16:47
of i think it's also about, I've been, I listened to a podcast about boredom,
16:51
right? The kind of philosophy of boredom.
16:53
And the thing that you're saying that you've done the lecture,
16:57
the same lecture, and I always change my lectures, you know,
17:00
update them, but still the same topic.
17:02
And that can be a little bit, and yes, you know, once you start,
17:06
you know, doing the lecture, kind of engaging the topic is good,
17:10
but this time that hearing yourself saying the same kind of material over and
17:14
over can feel a little bit,
17:17
yeah can can be kind of maybe bored
17:20
of yourselves I don't know you know saying the same thing and
17:23
that's that's probably part of it yeah I didn't think it that
17:26
way yeah I think that is the point actually like the repetitiveness of materials
17:31
so the point that you're making about you know once the term starts it's like
17:36
you go into this autopilot and maybe having an off day isn't even an option in the mind, right?
17:43
Because it's never something that actually takes effect when you walk into the class.
17:50
It's just something that, you know, you might be feeling it.
17:54
But as we said, we've probably never walked into a class and been like,
17:57
look, it's not my day today, but you know, I'm going to, I'm going to teach you anyway.
18:02
And so you do just kick into that
18:05
mode and you don't really overthink it in in many
18:08
ways I remember like feeling that this
18:11
is so different because I came
18:14
from the corporate world as a practitioner and if
18:17
you were having an off day in the corporate world you could just sit behind your
18:20
emails maybe you'd have like an hour of
18:23
face time in a meeting but most of
18:26
the time it's kind of be behind your laptop and mask
18:30
it when you're there and just crack on but when you're teaching you just don't
18:35
have that option right you just can't do that you can't sit behind your laptop
18:40
or well if I was I just wouldn't be in anyway right so so you just kind of have fun with it and,
18:49
And yeah, I think there is a part of you that just kicks in and you just walk
18:55
in and you go, and you're so used to doing it.
18:58
You've done it for such a long time that you almost don't, well,
19:03
I almost don't overthink it in some ways. I just know that there's no other option.
19:09
So just a reminder to our listeners that this show is brought to you in partnership with Hashit Learning.
19:15
They're publishers of professional development books and resources.
19:19
Support great teaching and learning in schools around the world.
19:22
So if you want to level up your professional development today,
19:25
then make sure you visit hashitlearning.com to explore their full range of titles.
19:31
And if you're ready to make an impact beyond the classroom, AQA are looking
19:37
for teachers like you to become examiners this summer.
19:41
So if you want to build your CPD, strengthen your understanding of the mark
19:45
scheme, and gain fresh insights to enhance your teaching, then this might be a good option for you.
19:52
So it's flexible, paid work, it fits around your commitments,
19:55
and you get full training from the AQA experts and ongoing support from an experienced team leader.
20:04
So whether you're an early career student, have years of experience,
20:09
AQA is a really valuable way to develop your knowledge and join a community
20:14
of subject specialists.
20:17
So join AQA as an examiner this summer. You can visit their website.
20:21
It's aqa.org.uk forward slash apply.
20:26
So, Joe, you know, when you're, you know, let's say that you were having an
20:33
off day and you were in the class,
20:37
do you think that, you know, the students would ever notice or pick up on it
20:42
or because you're not making it visible in the first place do you think that
20:47
yeah really I mean I think if it's something like sometimes you,
20:54
If it's nothing too serious, but I just kind of maybe flag, look,
20:58
I'm feeling a bit poorly today.
20:59
You can probably tell by my sore throat or, you know, that sort of thing.
21:02
I might kind of flag that and then students do know.
21:04
If it's kind of more internal or something going on, you know,
21:08
a way, you know, I don't know, whatever the reason you're not kind of feeling at your very best.
21:14
I think there'll be some students that could probably be perceptive and they
21:18
probably recognize that if you're even if you're not directly flagging it.
21:21
But at the same time i think one
21:24
of the luxuries of or you know the privileges of teaching at
21:28
our university university level is that
21:31
you know we are kind of dealing with adults or you know young adults
21:34
but still you know humans that actually are quite empathetic you
21:38
know it's a little bit different i don't know if you're maybe a secondary school teacher
21:41
and you're dealing with kids who might not be so kind
21:44
of understanding or kind of like get you know
21:47
they might you know ask like an awkward question or make it like
21:50
a little bit more difficult so that becomes something to negotiate
21:53
in a slightly different way whereas I think kind of
21:56
you know with students you know maybe they don't notice and
21:59
if they do they might kind of understand that okay you
22:02
know that that's a this is a real person
22:05
this is a human I think I think one of the best things about teaching
22:08
LCC is our students just generally do have
22:11
quite nice attitudes when it comes to that sort of thing like they have
22:14
like expectations of us but it's not a case of it's you
22:17
know a completely transactional one right you know they still
22:20
understand that we've got other stuff going on that sort of thing and i know like
22:23
you know this sector is going towards that like neoliberal kind of movement
22:26
and the marketization of education we could talk you know completely different
22:29
topic we could go down that you know on another day but i do think that for
22:34
now the students especially like an arts and design kind of space i'll see you
22:39
know our students kind of get that you know we're people too we're humans too.
22:43
Does that make sense? Does that, yeah? Yeah, that's a really good point because
22:46
I think it is different at different levels. And I agree with you.
22:50
A lot of our students are quite, yeah, they're quite cool. They're quite chilled,
22:54
aren't they? They're not really...
22:57
More transactional as you say so it does sort of
22:59
feel comfortable you could probably imagine yourself even saying
23:02
oh you know yeah I've just got a lot going on this week if it
23:05
was more of a kind of you know when you're going around and you're
23:08
chatting at tables rather than doing like
23:12
the whole room thing because our sessions are quite
23:15
long as well like I don't know about you guys but our classes
23:18
usually go on for about three hours yeah and
23:21
so you know that will usually be a lecture
23:25
for about an hour and then two hours of just engagement
23:28
and you know the other thing is it it
23:31
just depends sometimes on yeah the
23:34
energy in the room and how much I I
23:37
think that can really change whether I shift
23:41
my mood or whether I just decide to
23:44
do stuff that helps me kind of keep power
23:47
for it so if I was having let's say
23:50
an off day and I'm going into a class as I'm
23:53
teaching a topic that I'm really excited about I can
23:57
just I can almost just compartmentalize and get into it and by the end of it
24:02
I can usually forget that I was in an off place but if I'm teaching something
24:08
which I don't know yeah like if I'm covering for something or if I'm teaching
24:14
something that I'm not so,
24:15
you know, convicted about or passionate about.
24:19
Then I might turn it into a more kind of student-based discussion just to give
24:26
myself a bit of space, really, I guess.
24:28
I don't feel bad about it because I don't do it too often. I think,
24:32
you know, most of the time I do show up and I give a lot of energy,
24:36
but, you know, on the odd occasion, if I'm struggling,
24:40
I don't mind turning it more into you guys talk rather than we make it.
24:46
And sometimes actually that benefits the students as well. And then I get a
24:51
bit of space to, you know, because...
24:54
I don't know about you guys, but I'm an introvert. I feel like I have a limited amount of energy.
25:00
So depending on what's going on, if I'm really struggling, then I would just, yeah, I don't know.
25:09
I think there's so many factors that influence it, right?
25:12
Because it's not just that. It's the subject you're teaching,
25:16
who's in the class, and what the energy is. So many factors.
25:20
Yeah, it's not just one thing really, is it?
25:23
I think that's a good little hack as well you know
25:26
you know there's little things that we can do as
25:29
educators you know if it is like an off day you
25:32
know flipping it to like slightly more student length kind of
25:35
session could be one way of doing it you know and there's loads of ways we can
25:38
do that like group discussions peer-to-peer you know quick quick conversations
25:42
quick presentations that sort of thing but then also that can give you time
25:46
to take stock and kind of you know get into the right frame of mind and then
25:50
go again do you have any other hacks as well do Do you have any other kind of strategies?
25:56
I'm trying to think. I mean, I think the main one would probably be,
25:59
yeah, just like getting the students to sort of talk amongst themselves about
26:04
something or, I mean, it depends because I,
26:08
so I remember just literally about,
26:11
I think it was about three or four weeks ago, I was having lunch with one of
26:16
my colleagues who I would consider a friend, right?
26:20
Like we've known each other for about eight years.
26:23
It's like serious conversation and talking about, you know, something that's that's going on.
26:30
And, and I remember feeling, you know, I was feeling a little bit emotional. And yeah.
26:38
And then it got to two o'clock and I knew that I had presentations with my students.
26:44
It was mock presentations and I had three hours of it.
26:47
And it was, I think I had 15 teams presenting back to back. Wow. Yeah.
26:54
And my colleague was like, oh no, are you okay? And I was like,
26:57
actually, this is perfect.
26:58
Cause this was a class that I was going to teach in that I really,
27:02
I really like, I really love the students.
27:05
I actually get along with them
27:08
and I mean I get along with most of my students but this
27:11
class in particular I actually really like them and I
27:14
was looking forward to seeing their presentations and
27:17
so and I almost already knew that
27:20
at the end of that three hours I was
27:24
getting so much better and I
27:26
did I came out after that three hours and I was buzzing and
27:30
everything was rotten and I felt energized and
27:34
then I was actually able to look at my own situation with a
27:36
more fresh perspective but I don't think
27:39
that always happens but I think it can you know so sometimes throwing yourself
27:43
into it is a good strategy as well because I think it can it can just shift
27:49
you know the mood especially if you're present and you you know you can almost
27:54
forget right like what else is going on So,
27:57
do you have any hacks?
28:01
Hacks, I mean, you've already kind of mentioned the hacks. I think that,
28:04
I think the kind of student-led approach and I agree with, I agree with them.
28:10
And I think my partner would probably have a say on that.
28:14
I would go out and like, oh, today I'm feeling so tired or maybe I,
28:19
you know, I kind of flip the house more of a dread because for personal reasons.
28:25
Or just being a little bit more tired than usual.
28:28
And then I come back and, you know, he asked me, how was the day?
28:31
And he's like, oh, actually, this is really good. And I come back really kind
28:35
of re-energized. And it is...
28:37
Often I think that some kind of classes are just, there is a good energy and
28:43
students communicate and they share their ideas and it can happen a lot in also
28:48
presentations because it's when you see.
28:51
Them putting kind of the effort and kind of sharing what they develop throughout
28:56
the weeks and I think can be really rewarding.
28:58
So I fully agree on how the subject but also the specific group of students
29:04
may really shift your mood and make it feel much better.
29:10
I was thinking earlier when you were saying, Asimov, I think it's really this
29:13
idea of the difference between the corporate world and the teaching,
29:17
that it's the kind of emotional labor that we kind of have to put, right?
29:23
And I think it's part of the, it's probably different, as Jo said,
29:27
than the kind of primary school teachers, secondary school teachers,
29:29
that's still there, that you need to kind of be, yeah,
29:34
so yeah, I think that there is that, that we have to always kind of smile,
29:38
and, but I agree that they can, they also, students give a lot back,
29:43
and I think when they give back, it can be really nice and, and actually change the whole mood.
29:51
But I don't know if I have other, I mean, I think my students probably,
29:54
don't know if they would tell, but my strategy would be less,
29:57
I'm more quiet, or I would be
29:59
a little bit less involved without my normal self, which is quite hand-on.
30:03
So I think that would be maybe how students would kind of sense if they do, right?
30:14
But, yeah, so I don't know if I have a tip.
30:20
Those are good tips. Yeah, those are useful.
30:23
Yeah, I just thought of another one, actually. So I don't know about you guys,
30:27
but sometimes I think when I'm preparing for, especially if it's like a workshop-y style class,
30:36
sometimes I am over-ambitious with how much I think we can cover.
30:42
Yeah, yeah. And I think if I'm having a bit of a difficult time,
30:46
I think it helps when I simplify. Yeah.
30:51
So I can go in and I, because I know that I don't need to cover that much.
30:55
And actually it gives the students a bit more room to breathe as well.
31:00
So sometimes just going in and simplifying the session and making it,
31:06
giving them a bit more time to
31:07
work on, you know, particular tasks rather than giving them five or six.
31:13
Six, I'll give them two or three and give them a bit longer.
31:17
And actually, I think they appreciate it. Sometimes it works out because they
31:22
get a bit more space and I get a bit more space. And.
31:26
And also sometimes, you know, I can see that they've finished something and
31:30
then they might be kind of having a chat.
31:32
But then sometimes, I don't know if you guys ever observed this,
31:36
but I'm like, it's actually nice because university is not just all about them coming in to learn.
31:42
Like, I think they appreciate those times and remember those classes more where
31:47
they can actually have a bit of room to talk to each other and get a bit lost
31:51
in the conversation and let it go off on tangents rather than us.
31:56
You know, I mean, I do have some times where I'm just like, right,
32:00
six minutes, right. Get on next task.
32:04
But then I don't do that all the time because it'd be a bit too much for them and for me.
32:09
But yeah simplifying the session is i
32:11
think that's yeah that's really useful yeah like i
32:14
guess you can simplify this this
32:17
has got me thinking as well now you can simplify like the the planning
32:20
of the lesson beforehand maybe like a bit but
32:23
then also the delivery so it's like okay this this direction is working well
32:27
maybe this is something that we kind of dwell on and we focus on for now and
32:31
we kind of go a bit deeper and then if you have to maybe catch up on something
32:34
in the future that's fine but if it's kind of like i get a space to kind of
32:38
focus in on something then you can lean towards that that's really good that's
32:41
really useful that's really easy yeah.
32:44
Yeah, I think there's the flexibility that I think teaching in the university,
32:47
particularly the seminars,
32:49
allow, which I think it's good for, not necessarily for the off day,
32:53
but kind of, I do think the students appreciate when you maybe go a little bit
32:58
off or maybe have a little chat and, you know, it can become a little bit more informal sometimes.
33:04
And that can be also a way of dealing with an off day, right?
33:08
So I don't know, sometimes maybe just have a more kind of informal conversation
33:13
about the lecture topics or about the day or sometimes about the university life.
33:20
And I think that kind of allows as well for kind of being less rigid.
33:26
Yeah, I think that's a good tip.
33:28
It's so true. Even when like, you know, you give them breaks and stuff,
33:31
sometimes my students will kind of catch me off guard because I'll be taking
33:36
the break to have a break and then they'll start asking me questions, not about the work,
33:42
but about life. And, and.
33:46
Cascades yeah it just kind of happens and suddenly
33:48
it's time times up and you've got to yourself back into
33:51
it again yeah yeah and sometimes it
33:54
does pull you into a different kind of conversation and then
33:57
it's it's quite nice because I
34:00
guess we don't always get the chance to get to
34:03
know our students personally or you
34:06
know know more about them more widely than
34:09
just how much they contribute in the class and so
34:12
you kind of see them in a more like yeah
34:16
I don't know in a more human way I guess because our students are
34:20
like young adults as you say and and
34:23
also sometimes when I just sit and
34:26
I hear them talking about things you know it's so funny
34:29
and entertaining for me as well oh gosh how
34:32
young they are and the things
34:35
that occupy their mind at this stage of
34:38
life and it's quite fun it's
34:41
quite it's quite light it's quite nice and
34:45
and I enjoy that and I think that can also just pull you into another gives
34:49
you a good sense of perspective you know whatever the off day you're having
34:52
when he's sometimes you know that those those types of engagement or you overhear
34:56
some of those snippets of conversation you know can kind of put things back
35:00
into perspective and you go oh okay this is why I'm doing this this is why we're here,
35:03
this is why we're in this room doing this particular.
35:07
Activity or whatever yeah yeah i also i'm wondering if i don't know if i want that
35:14
kind of as university lecturers i
35:17
think we're a bit more like relaxed you know i imagine in the past it would
35:21
be much harder to have those kind of much more you know informal conversations
35:27
and there'll be like a hierarchy of how maybe like i don't know lecturers in
35:33
my university Maybe some,
35:35
but I think the majority would have been quite difficult to tell or would have been,
35:38
I don't know, I think, I don't know, maybe things have changed a little bit
35:43
and we are a bit more informal with our students in some ways and that allows
35:47
for a better management of, what do you think of the kind of off days or is that not the case?
35:52
Do you think that no i think i think it
35:56
definitely has changed it's maybe
35:59
not perhaps as strict as perhaps was
36:02
in the past maybe there's certain times when we could maybe
36:05
afford to be a little bit stricter and maybe you know especially at arts university
36:09
when you have students rocking up at like 45 minutes into a class yeah yeah
36:13
but at the same time it's still really important that you know to create a learning
36:20
environment that is kind of open to all kinds of different learners.
36:24
And kind of takes into account you know
36:27
you know maybe the students are having off days as well and we don't know about it right
36:30
so like you know we're not trying to add an extra layer of pressure it's trying
36:33
to be a space where you're coming to learn but it's also like you know there's
36:36
there's the socialization elements for the students there's you know just being
36:40
a part of the community that is the the university there's loads of different
36:44
factors loads of different elements It's kind of at play. And I guess it's a constant juggling act.
36:49
Just trying to balance it all. Yeah, and I think it's such a good point that
36:52
you make about sometimes students are having off days too and we don't really
36:56
think about that very often. I don't think about that often.
37:00
Sometimes we assume that if a student's not engaging that they're just not engaged enough.
37:07
It could just be that they've got, you know, things going on as well.
37:12
Yeah. Yeah, this is super interesting. So just a reminder to all of our listeners
37:17
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38:18
Guys, what do you think the university standpoint would be on off days?
38:26
Like, I'm just thinking that, you know, if we were to have one of these discussions, like a.
38:35
Away days or something like that, what do you think would be the advice that
38:42
would come to us to say, you know, what should be the approach?
38:47
Like, because there's no guidance around stuff like this, is there?
38:50
We're all just kind of winging it and doing whatever we think seems best.
38:55
Or is there guidance and I've sort of missed it?
38:59
I mean, I suppose there is the effort of community.
39:03
Have you been to any of the kind of community events?
39:08
Is that called community events? Community day.
39:11
Oh, yeah. Community days. Yeah. Isn't that just sort of like activities where
39:16
you let yourself start? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah.
39:19
No, I'm just thinking that I suppose it's, I'm imagining that the approach would
39:24
be around resources and finding ways of kind of supporting the staff, right?
39:34
Supporting the staff to kind of deal with off days.
39:39
Actually, I think from that perspective, the university offer a lot of support, don't they?
39:45
On those days, the community days, there's lots of well-being kind of offering.
39:48
I went to one the other day and I got a back massage.
39:51
It's a 15-minute neck massage. Yeah, it was brilliant.
39:55
I wanted to go and do the flower arrangement, but I never managed to.
39:59
Oh, I saw that. Yeah, yeah.
40:01
I had to do it. I think the problem with the support, it's, I don't know,
40:06
I feel that sometimes off days may become also from kind of the intensity of
40:11
the way that terms work in the kind of university environment.
40:15
And I think I'm still, I'm teaching for 10 years, solid, I think.
40:21
And I think I still haven't managed to kind of work around those things.
40:26
Shifts of modes working really really really kind
40:29
of teaching a lot for a three four months
40:32
and then having a break for a month which you have to catch up
40:35
with other things and you know i think it's kind of like
40:38
a when it's like a clock like we need to are rearranging
40:42
your body clock to some sort of different modes of being
40:45
right yeah i think that's such a point like
40:49
it is really i always have
40:52
to explain this to people and because if
40:55
you're not a teacher it's really hard for people to
40:58
understand people outside are always just like oh wow you get
41:00
so much time off and it's like yeah because we need it
41:03
it's marking it's marking yeah
41:07
yeah we do work in like six months i've produced four star outputs for the ref
41:13
and do my teaching and yeah just it just all piles up doesn't it but it's part
41:20
of the part of the fun it's part of the game um it is i think you know about that.
41:25
What would the the approach be like from an institutional
41:29
kind of level for an off day i guess by its
41:32
like definition an off day is kind of like a slippery sort of
41:35
thing because it's kind of implies that it's kind of temporary and
41:39
it also implies that it's not so severe
41:42
that you'd have to cancel your class right it's
41:46
just kind of a thing that you kind of have to deal with so it's one of
41:48
those things that i think slips through the gaps a little bit for no for
41:52
no particular fault from anyone it's just just the way that
41:55
you know it kind of manifests itself it is quite hard
41:58
it's quite a slippery kind of thing to to isolate so
42:03
maybe if that's why it maybe maybe it was the kind of need to you know i don't
42:06
know create more awareness about you know have more open conversations about
42:10
these sort of things you know and to talk about how you know sharing tips you
42:14
know sharing you know kind of ideas about ways to navigate it that might be
42:18
one of the solutions i'm not sure It's nice that we've done it today,
42:22
isn't it? Totally. Totally, yeah, yeah.
42:24
We'll just send my show to everyone, won't we? We've got all the hats on here. How to.
42:30
How to rumblings are semi-usual, guys. Yeah.
42:33
I'm wondering if also it's not a bad thing for students to be aware of the kind
42:37
of off days and the pressure that exists and why those off days exist, right? I think that...
42:44
You know, I think it's not a bad thing to have a critical awareness of how your tutors operate.
42:49
And I'm not saying you should go and lecture them, but I think that...
42:54
Yeah, they'll get enough of that anyway.
42:57
I just also think because they're adult and intelligent people,
43:00
you know, you would expect that they should have an understanding of how maybe
43:06
this kind of, yeah, how maybe teaching operates in this environment.
43:10
You don't need to overshare, but you can just kind of communicate.
43:12
Like i'm just this isn't one of my you know slightly off day just yeah apologies
43:18
we're gonna you know maybe focus on things in a slightly different way you know
43:23
and also it's kind of like.
43:26
You guys might hate me for this but i'm gonna go to i always use
43:28
football as like an analogy so yeah top level
43:31
football right there's always another game there's always another you know at the
43:34
highest level if you lose one match you draw one match you
43:37
know not happy with your performance there's always another game so there's
43:39
always tomorrow there's
43:40
always the next class there's always the next time if it's not
43:43
you know your most effective kind of you know
43:46
day you're not the most effective class whatever you know
43:49
it takes stock what worked well what could improve for
43:52
next time move on and make it right the other time so that's
43:55
you know that's there's always another opportunity to you know
43:58
to keep moving along keep moving on i like
44:01
your perspective yeah sorry about the football reference
44:04
yeah yeah no i think it's good i think
44:07
it's good because yeah like I mean we do teach a lot
44:10
of classes right so we can't put so much emphasis and focus just on every single
44:16
like that's us being intense as well right I think sometimes it's the sequence
44:21
as well so if I'm having a bit of a day and let's say I'm teaching a
44:27
like in the morning and the afternoon, I could probably get through the morning
44:31
and be, because also I'm a morning person.
44:36
So yeah, you know, even if, even if I'm not having an off day.
44:43
I think I, like, I'm not really an afternoon person.
44:46
I'm a morning person and an evening person sometimes. Yeah.
44:51
I'm, I'm definitely like a morning person. I'm definitely
44:54
not a morning person oh really i'm like
44:57
bouncing off the walls in the morning and then you get
44:59
it you know what's really funny is so this show
45:03
happens at 9 p.m and usually by
45:06
9 p.m my battery is completely flat so every time the show's coming up i'm like
45:12
oh no i don't have energy for it um but then i managed to you know because of
45:20
all the experience with teaching i know how to just get into the zone.
45:25
I do remember actually having one show where I just had this really awful it
45:31
was one of those days you know where everything that could go wrong went wrong
45:35
and ironically it was a show that I was really looking forward to because it
45:41
was on a topic I was really passionate about,
45:44
and then I remember just relying on again I'm
45:47
going to just turn this into like more of an interview I just
45:50
asked my guest loads of questions because I
45:54
just didn't have the and I remember I felt
45:57
really bad about it afterwards because I sort of thought you know
46:00
I wanted this to be more of a conversation but I sort of turned into an interview
46:05
and and maybe the listeners never even noticed right you know just being completely
46:10
honest you know we all have those days and we've got there's so many things,
46:15
as we were saying, that influence it.
46:17
Like I'm a morning person, so I can get into work.
46:21
I can, you know, I'm naturally buzzing without a coffee and then...
46:26
Afternoon comes on and then I'm just like well I've got to go and teach again really.
46:34
And yeah I mean sometimes I can walk into
46:37
the class and I can you know just find the energy or
46:40
buzz off someone else's energy but sometimes
46:44
I'm you know definitely before I walk in I'm
46:47
thinking I can't be bothered to do this I'm a
46:51
thousand percent morning not a morning person and
46:54
I need my coffee and all that sort of thing but I think as well
46:57
there's something about so 9am's are
47:00
tough for you know lecturers and students
47:03
alike but there's something about you know going in together
47:06
and when I see the students there and that they've made the effort to come in
47:09
it's kind of like right okay now we now we turn it on like you say because you
47:13
know if they've if they've if they've come you know they've made the effort
47:16
they're here as they should but I still appreciate it still you know still an
47:19
effort you know people traveling from different places that sort of thing you
47:22
know you just kind of have to switch on and crack on straight away,
47:27
I definitely took office first and after I can talk. Yeah, yeah.
47:33
But I'm kind of going back to what we said initially,
47:36
which I think also of how can we be kind to ourselves and what we expect from
47:44
our students to kind of not feel off, right?
47:48
So I think maybe there is this harshness about you having an off day And then,
47:52
you know, how, yeah, you expect that everyone will be kind of listening to you
47:59
and kind of give some sort of excitement.
48:01
And sometimes at nine o'clock is very hard.
48:04
So you kind of have to power through that and like, okay.
48:09
And yes, be kind to yourself and maybe not that hard, not that kind of hard critic of how.
48:16
And, yeah, I'm just thinking of how the update can come into place in terms
48:22
of your self-evaluation and also the expectation that we have that our lectures
48:27
and workshops has to be all kind of super buzzing and exciting.
48:30
And sometimes, you know, it can be also quite normal and that's fine.
48:36
Is it always buzzing and exciting? I don't know. It's fine in the morning.
48:40
I think Paul Gilroy has written about his teaching experiences during his early
48:45
career. I think it was down the road at South Bank University.
48:48
Again, a similar kind of thing, I had a really early 9am kind of lecture slot,
48:53
seminar slot, and was just having to think of imaginative ways of kind of engaging
48:57
with the students and, you know, think, you know, it's an early career,
49:00
what's the way to do it, that sort of thing.
49:02
But if someone, you know, kind of, at his kind of level has had those thoughts
49:06
and has gone through that process as well, you know, it's kind of indicative
49:08
that, you know, it's just a part of the, it's part of the game.
49:11
It's part of the, you know, the university level kind of challenge that we can
49:16
turn into an opportunity, right?
49:17
That we can turn into a, okay, you know, you're here because you are really
49:21
into it. You're really into the subject. That's why we're committed.
49:24
Okay. Let's, let's go for it. Let's dig deep. Let's, let's, let's dive into
49:28
that topic. Let's really unpack it.
49:30
Yeah, absolutely. But I also agree, actually, with your point,
49:36
Irida, that every session doesn't have to be energetic and buzzing, right?
49:41
Like, we can talk about a topic that we're interested in and passionate about
49:46
without… Bouncing off the walls. Yeah.
49:50
I mean, I remember doing a session, it was like a guest lecture for one of my
49:56
colleagues, and it was around identity.
49:59
And but it's quite
50:02
it's quite a personal topic isn't it and and there's
50:05
so many different sort of facets to it and actually I
50:09
didn't do that lecture in this like big kind of upbeat bounce I did it in quite
50:15
a very like relaxed sort of mellow way but it worked really well and and it
50:23
was I think maybe the students probably appreciate that sometimes too as well.
50:29
It's mixing it up isn't it and and I
50:32
think we do have this default idea in
50:36
our mind that we need to have like lots of energy but I
50:39
think yeah the way that it manifests and presents itself can be different sometimes
50:45
and we can just slow it down and yeah I don't know sometimes it helps I always
50:49
say if you're relaxed then the other people in front of you can relax a bit
50:54
more and I think Like, yeah,
50:56
it fits in with being kind to yourself as well.
50:59
So just slowing it down a little bit and going, okay, let's have a more thoughtful
51:04
approach to the topic rather than a high energy approach to it.
51:08
And maybe just hit home a bit more from students sometimes, especially if it's
51:16
different to your usual style.
51:18
They might have been a bit more careful or a bit harder.
51:23
For me, that's a great tip, Sima. I think that seems to be, it's something that,
51:28
because in a way to be able to maintain the energy throughout the three,
51:32
four months that we run, maybe there is something that we kind of,
51:36
you need to hold back and kind of say, okay.
51:39
And I think it kind of relates to the metaphor with the football as well,
51:43
right? You can't always be... Lovely stuff. Yeah, here we go.
51:51
I think it's true though, isn't it? It's that variation. Pacing.
51:54
You've got to pace yourself. It's a long season. It's a long game.
52:01
I think that's a great takeaway.
52:06
It's nice to talk about these topics on this show.
52:09
I think since I've started doing this show, I've had conversations with my colleagues,
52:14
which I probably have never had
52:17
before, even though I've been teaching for about eight, nine years now.
52:22
I don't think I've talked about a lot of these things because we don't, do we?
52:27
I mean, even if we do, it's how we talked about Irita at the start,
52:31
which was just a two, three minute passing conversation and we chat and then
52:37
we kind of got on with what we needed to do.
52:39
And so you don't really delve into it. So it's quite nice to have the space to...
52:44
Delve in and really kind of think a bit.
52:48
I felt also bad when I said to you that, and then you left, I was like,
52:53
God, am I being negative?
52:57
So I think that's also a great thing. Am I complaining?
53:03
So it also has to show something about kind of the culture of,
53:07
you know, producing and positivity and sometimes it's not possible, right? We're humans.
53:16
Important toxic positivity right yeah exactly
53:19
yeah and i think and it depends on the topic and the level but
53:22
i'm pretty sure my master's students would be pretty sick of me
53:25
if i was you know at high level over the top nicey nicey
53:28
positive positive all of the time for every
53:31
topic right and it's so probably first
53:34
second third years right it's you know it's about like you know match it having
53:39
those levels that move up and down you can't you can't start even in one lecture
53:43
you can't start at 100 miles an hour and maintain that for the whole class right
53:47
let alone to do that you know it's ebbs and flows you kind of have a crescendo
53:51
there's like a big point you might want to make.
53:53
You know, let alone if you're trying to do that across like a whole term,
53:56
the whole academic year, right?
53:58
So you've got to think strategically. I'm trying really hard not to make football analogies here.
54:02
No, make them. They're really good.
54:05
Actually, I was kind of thinking, okay, I was thinking of, so on RuPaul's Drag
54:09
Race, so RuPaul kind of talks about how, you know, when the actors,
54:15
sometimes they start at 100 miles an hour, they come off the blocks and when
54:18
they're doing like acting challenges,
54:20
but then they can't, they've got nowhere else to go.
54:22
So they started out at that
54:25
top level and then they haven't got any nuance because that's their
54:28
they've kind of laid all their cards on the table straight away so again
54:31
it's strategic in the maybe that's maybe
54:34
tied to performance the performance of it all i'm not sure that it's
54:37
kind of strategic you know how how can we best communicate
54:40
this topic how is this going to help the students learn but
54:43
also how can i make sure it's sustainable looking after myself you
54:47
know looking after them as well because they don't want to you know don't want to like
54:49
overload them with something but it's
54:52
a way of you know strategizing it I think I mean RuPaul would say if you don't
54:56
love yourself how the hell are you going to love somebody else I get an amen
55:02
up in here is that something like that yes it is about being kind to yourself
55:07
right yeah exactly and I think.
55:11
I think that variation piece, it kind of works in speech as well, right?
55:17
Like to keep people engaged, we can't just have, we can't be monotone.
55:21
We can't have the same, you know, we can't operate at the same level all the time.
55:26
And so even if you think of, apply that to being, you know, between sessions
55:31
and classes, you're right.
55:32
If you go into every session, high energy, bouncing off the walls,
55:36
it's just, it's just the same thing.
55:38
It becomes monotone as well but you know if we're if we keep them kind of on
55:43
their toes and they don't know which
55:45
Seema or which Joe or Irida is going to walk across today
55:49
that can be quite you know fun and engaging as well because you know there's
55:55
there's different moods with which you can approach a topic I guess it keeps
56:00
it interesting for them and sustainable for us yeah yeah important.
56:08
I don't think I've ever thought about it like this before
56:11
though I don't think I've deliberately planned
56:15
or given myself this permission to say well
56:18
actually it would be a beneficial thing for you to go in with not so much energy
56:24
today or or just you know tone it down just to the energy in a different way
56:29
right yeah yeah just to preserve yourself I never thought about it no I actually
56:35
I mean, not consciously at least.
56:38
And I think that would be quite useful to sometimes just be calmer and run sessions in a more...
56:48
Preserving way i i've never thought about it that so thank you
56:51
both yeah i'll try to put it in practice next
56:54
time this is
56:57
really useful this is really good i think and it's
57:00
perfect timing because we go back next week to start teaching
57:03
again so we can just in time
57:06
yeah it's just in time and i
57:09
always do think that i don't know if this happens
57:11
to you guys as well but i you know
57:15
when we go into our quiet period over
57:18
the summer it takes me a while to really
57:21
relax into it and then I feel like by the time
57:23
I've actually let go and relaxed it's time to go back again yeah totally yeah
57:28
definitely so maybe this might help sustain us a bit more like in terms of through
57:35
the year so that we can yeah balance the energy a bit better as well and I think
57:41
even in the institutional At the institutional level.
57:43
That's great. Yeah.
57:46
I think that should be an institutional advice as well. Preserve yourself.
57:51
It feels a good tip to kind of maintain the demands of working when you're not
57:59
teaching on other things and being there for your students when you're teaching.
58:02
And that's the main kind of activities.
58:06
Definitely. So usually I do, I have like a masterclass at the end of every show
58:12
and I decided I'm not going to, I'm not going to do the masterclass thing today
58:16
because I've got two guests.
58:18
After quite a long time, I've got two guests on.
58:21
And, and I think that, you know, so the masterclass usually about giving like
58:25
a, you know, some tips to the listeners.
58:27
And I think we've just given the greatest one, haven't we? Oh, there we go.
58:32
It wasn't even planned. Yeah. Exactly.
58:35
Exactly. so yeah look i can't
58:38
believe the hour's gone by already but this has just been such a
58:41
great conversation thank you so much irida thank
58:44
you joe thanks for all the football analogies oh
58:48
sorry about that no but thank you for having it yeah thank you yeah thank you
58:52
so much that's great yeah so much so thanks everyone have a good night and i
58:59
will see you or speak to you again in about a month okay thanks very much,
59:06
You've been listening to Teachers Talk Radio.
59:09
Tune in live and listen back at ttradio.org. We look forward to hearing from you next time.