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Speaking Life #1 - How to Fail at Evangelism || SLP679 · The Speak Life Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_09: So the four scenarios were the path, the rocky ground, the thorny ground, the good soil.
0:06
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
0:07
SPEAKER_09: And thinking about it in terms of people's, almost minds and hearts.
0:11
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
0:12
SPEAKER_09: You said hard.
0:14
SPEAKER_09: Shallow.
0:15
SPEAKER_09: Shallow.
0:16
SPEAKER_09: Anxious.
0:16
SPEAKER_09: Anxious.
0:17
SPEAKER_09: And receptive.
0:19
SPEAKER_09: Receptive.
0:19
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
0:20
SPEAKER_09: I mean, I was only working in student ministry for four years.
0:22
SPEAKER_09: But even then, one of my main lessons as I was reflecting on it was the parable of the source real.
0:27
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
0:28
SPEAKER_08: My final sermon before going off to Bible college.
0:31
SPEAKER_08: I'm kind of preaching from Psalm 32 and calling people to find forgiveness in Christ and come home to Jesus.
0:36
SPEAKER_08: Come home to Jesus.
0:37
SPEAKER_08: And I'm in tears in the pulpit.
0:38
SPEAKER_08: And a friend of mine is on coffee at the back, and he hands me the coffee and he transforms my mood in about four words.
0:45
SPEAKER_08: It's it's the most efficient pastoral care I've ever received.
0:48
SPEAKER_08: He just he just said.
0:51
SPEAKER_08: Hi, welcome to the Speak Life Podcast.
0:53
SPEAKER_08: My name is Glenn Scriven, and I'm here with Naomi Brahm.
0:55
SPEAKER_08: Hello.
0:55
SPEAKER_09: Hello, hello, hello.
0:56
SPEAKER_08: Thomas, uh our producer and and uh longtime contributor to the podcast as well.
1:02
SPEAKER_08: Um he put me onto this Bryce Crawford.
1:04
SPEAKER_08: You haven't come across Bryce Crawford.
1:05
SPEAKER_09: No, no, who is he?
1:06
SPEAKER_08: So social media influencer Christian, um, kind of blowing up right now.
1:11
SPEAKER_08: Um Bryce Crawford.
1:13
SPEAKER_08: Um kind of a big deal.
1:14
SPEAKER_09: Sorry, Bryce.
1:15
SPEAKER_08: But he wouldn't, he would, he would hate, he would hate to be known as kind of a big deal.
1:19
SPEAKER_08: In fact, this clip of him going on Lila Rose's podcast kind of speaks about exactly that issue, um, especially when raising funds for evangelism.
1:29
SPEAKER_08: Um, people want bang for their buck.
1:31
SPEAKER_08: And so when they're asking an evangelist for results, um this is how Bryce Crawford responds.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, I had this one scenario that happened that like really rubbed me the wrong way, where there was like a really big ministry that got on the phone and that had talked about like how they wanted to help partner with our ministry.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: I've never said this publicly before, but I don't care because it needs to be said, and it just rubbed me the wrong way.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Big ministry, and they were talking about how they wanted to help fund our ministry because we're we're like a nonprofit at heart.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: So the way that we're able to do this and travel and stuff like that is by people sewing into our ministry.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: So we get on the phone and it's great, and then they asked me, they go, How many salvations have you seen?
2:11
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, I don't know.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, you can't, I I don't think you can count a salvation.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't determine if someone keeps the faith after you know they leave.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: That's why I think like confirmation is kind of dope, because you kind of see people's about that life.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I can't do it.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: Just because someone fills out a connect card and gets the gift at the connect booth, like that doesn't mean that they're saved.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: Um so I was like, we we don't count salvations, but we just count impact, like how many people we reach and stuff like that.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: That is a better statistic to count than salvations and verbatim that said, Well, we can give you money and plug you in with people that can give you money based on how many people you get into heaven.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: And I got off that call and I looked at Dylan and I said, We will never take a dime from that organization.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm like, are we using, are we manipulating people's salvations as an excuse to like get funding dollars in ministry?
3:00
SPEAKER_00: That is disgraceful and disgusting.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: And it it it appalled me that that was actually a thing that was happening.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: Meaning that they took credit for what may be saved, or more just that they were even counting such a thing because we we don't know who's gonna be in heaven.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can't even do that.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: We trust the person who will be with him, but like we we're gonna probably be really surprised and yeah, I can only be sure of my salvation.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: I can't be sure of other people's.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: That's why like I'm always also cautious to be like, oh, that person's not that person's going to hell, that person's doing this, because like, yeah, you can look at someone's fruit on their tree, but I've just always been cautious to be the one that's like I I just don't want to be the guy throwing that around.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: But it was like, yeah, people count X amount of salvations and then people donate money to that based on how many salvations they get, whether it's to churches or conferences or things.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: Not every church does a salvation cost.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm in the show, I think it's like for$54.99.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: $54.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: Every salvation is like a hundred bucks and you know, whatever.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: An extra good one is a hundred and fifty.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Like if they say the prayer word for word, it's like an extra$50.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: I like I don't have a problem giving analytics and statistics.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: Like people want to know like, is my money going to the thing that I'm actually sewing into?
4:12
SPEAKER_00: Rightfully so.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: But there's a difference between reach and claiming that X amount of people are going to go to heaven and that's why you should give me money.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: I had a really big problem with that.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: I find that fascinating.
4:23
SPEAKER_08: So Bryce Crawford, uh big influencer and lifting up the name of Jesus in lots of ways.
4:28
SPEAKER_08: And you can understand why people want to help him to broadcast the message of Jesus far and wide.
4:35
SPEAKER_08: But as soon as investment in that broadcast thing happens, then all of a sudden the question is like, what is success?
4:42
SPEAKER_08: Right.
4:43
SPEAKER_08: And that's what we're going to get into together.
4:45
SPEAKER_08: Naomi, you're an evangelist, isn't that right?
4:47
SPEAKER_08: That's that's on your job description.
4:49
SPEAKER_09: That is that is the job title you have given me, Glenn.
4:51
SPEAKER_09: And sometimes it's a gift, and other times I just don't tell people that's my job title.
4:57
SPEAKER_08: Me too.
4:58
SPEAKER_08: It's on my job title as well.
4:59
SPEAKER_08: Herald of good news is what it means.
5:01
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
5:02
SPEAKER_09: Right.
5:03
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, why don't you call me that?
5:04
SPEAKER_08: Herald.
5:05
SPEAKER_09: Hello, everybody.
5:05
SPEAKER_09: I'm Name and I'm a Herald of good news.
5:08
SPEAKER_08: He'll ye, hear ye.
5:10
SPEAKER_08: There's a new king in town.
5:11
SPEAKER_08: His name is Jesus.
5:12
SPEAKER_09: So we have a town crier in my in my town.
5:15
SPEAKER_09: And I was working from home one day, and and in the middle of I'm trying to focus, you know?
5:20
SPEAKER_09: Yes.
5:20
SPEAKER_09: Who knows what, who knows what I was focusing on?
5:22
SPEAKER_09: And I hear this bell, did ding, did ding, hee ye, hear ye.
5:26
SPEAKER_09: And I was like, are you joking me?
5:27
SPEAKER_09: I went outside, I opened the window, looked, and literally on the bridge outside my house, a town crier dressed all up, ding ding ding, hear ye, hee yeah.
5:36
SPEAKER_09: And then the mayor gets up and he says, Happy Sussex Day, everybody.
5:40
SPEAKER_09: And all there's like like 10 people.
5:43
SPEAKER_09: And I was thinking, gosh, am I living in a fairy tale?
5:47
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
5:47
SPEAKER_09: It's a design.
5:48
SPEAKER_09: Town crier is now my friend.
5:49
SPEAKER_09: He's called John.
5:50
SPEAKER_09: He's great.
5:50
SPEAKER_08: I was about to say, I'm sure you're evangelizing him because you know, get the town crier.
5:55
SPEAKER_08: You've got the town.
5:56
SPEAKER_09: Well, yeah.
5:58
SPEAKER_09: He's a great guy.
6:01
SPEAKER_08: And so he is publishing his message abroad, and not very many people are listen listening, are they?
6:05
SPEAKER_08: No, that's true.
6:06
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
6:07
SPEAKER_08: And so that that kind of gels with what we're going to talk about in terms of success.
6:10
SPEAKER_08: What does it look like to be a successful herald of this good news?
6:14
SPEAKER_08: And as Bryce says, I mean, it's it's very tricky because you don't want to start counting.
6:21
SPEAKER_08: What do you count?
6:22
SPEAKER_08: That's the big issue, isn't it?
6:23
SPEAKER_08: Like what counts.
6:24
SPEAKER_08: What counts.
6:25
SPEAKER_09: It does feel like there is a need to be able to admit when a certain project or ministry or something isn't working.
6:35
SPEAKER_09: Like it feels like there is that you do still need to know actually that yeah, what we're doing isn't worthwhile.
6:43
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
6:43
SPEAKER_09: And so yeah, yeah.
6:46
SPEAKER_09: I feel I I'm I'm with him in a lot in a lot of ways.
6:49
SPEAKER_09: Um but I think I think we can we can be generous towards those who who do have that perspective of well, I need I need to know if your ministry is worth investing in in that in in that sense, because sure you could be reaching in some way, like loads and no and loads of people, but is it bearing is it bearing fruit?
7:09
SPEAKER_09: I think is a reasonable question to ask.
7:12
SPEAKER_08: Maybe we just need to figure out like what kind of fruit kind of fruit and success and and how long are we talking?
7:18
SPEAKER_09: How long term are we talking about?
7:19
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
7:20
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
7:21
SPEAKER_08: Right.
7:21
SPEAKER_08: And and it's more a supply side thing than the the conversions at the other end.
7:28
SPEAKER_08: Certainly from Bryce's point of view, it's kind of like, well, I can I can tell you about there is well, we'll we'll get into the Bible in a second, but the seed that is scattered, that is broadcast very, very widely.
7:39
SPEAKER_08: And you want to get behind the seed of the word of God being cast broadly, which is where the word broadcast comes from.
7:45
SPEAKER_08: You know, it literally comes from casting seed broadly across different soil types, which we'll we'll get into in a in a second in in the Bible.
7:52
SPEAKER_08: So investing in that is a very godly thing because that's that's kind of how the kingdom grows.
7:59
SPEAKER_08: But in terms of yeah, being able to put a a dollar figure on yeah, yeah.
8:05
SPEAKER_09: Do you know what that would be so much easier?
8:07
SPEAKER_09: If I could pay 100 pounds and guarantee someone would be saved, oh man, that's just easier, isn't it?
8:11
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
8:13
SPEAKER_09: What even is what does that mean?
8:15
SPEAKER_09: What does it mean?
8:15
SPEAKER_09: Oh dear.
8:16
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
8:17
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
8:17
SPEAKER_08: Well, but it is it is interesting.
8:19
SPEAKER_08: I mean, so to lay bare here at Speak Life, um, we try to get people from scrolling on their phones to doing 321.
8:27
SPEAKER_08: And we can get them from scrolling Instagram to at least doing 321 reliably for about four pounds, four pounds fifty.
8:34
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, okay.
8:36
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, great, yeah, yeah, yeah.
8:37
SPEAKER_08: And fascinatingly, like in social media speak, there's a sort of a cost per conversion.
8:42
SPEAKER_08: And what they mean by conversion is not conversion to Christ, but conversion from that platform to this platform.
8:48
SPEAKER_08: You follow the link from Facebook to the the what the you know person is.
8:53
SPEAKER_09: Okay, so we as Speak Life can we can put some numbers towards th that type of conversion.
9:00
SPEAKER_09: So we could we can say it maybe cost this amount to to on in general get someone from Instagram to 321.
9:08
SPEAKER_09: Um our prayer is that people go from 321 to physical church.
9:14
SPEAKER_04: They'll go from unbelief to belief.
9:15
SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
9:16
SPEAKER_09: But there's different yeah, okay.
9:18
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
9:20
SPEAKER_08: And you know, I think to some degree that's interesting to somebody if they want if they want to sew into ministry and if they if they want to, you know, make their their money like make a difference for the kingdom.
9:33
SPEAKER_09: Well, that's yeah.
9:34
SPEAKER_08: Um so you can see where this stuff comes from.
9:36
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
9:37
SPEAKER_08: Like, like, okay, I've just inherited some money.
9:40
SPEAKER_08: Like, what do I like and I want it to make Kingdom Impact.
9:43
SPEAKER_08: And then Speak Life comes along and they say, wow, for£4.50.
9:47
SPEAKER_08: You know?
9:48
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
9:48
SPEAKER_08: Um, that gets turned into somebody who's who's doing 3-2-1.
9:51
SPEAKER_08: So I can I can and Bryce is talking about, you know, the supply side.
9:55
SPEAKER_08: Like, like, okay, you can help me speak the gospel to lots of people, but I can't make them convert in that sense, right?
10:04
SPEAKER_08: Like I you know, I I can't bring about the the fruit at the end of the day, which is isn't that the one Corinthians three thing?
10:11
SPEAKER_08: You know, it's it's I've sown Apollos watered, God gives the growth.
10:16
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
10:16
SPEAKER_08: You know.
10:17
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
10:18
SPEAKER_08: Should we have a look at Mark chapter four?
10:19
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
10:20
SPEAKER_08: I think we've been circling around these these sort of ideas.
10:23
SPEAKER_09: Where so you so you could choose to go to Matthew 13, true, Luke eight or Mark four, and find the same story in those faces.
10:35
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:37
SPEAKER_08: And it's this agricultural kind of scene, which I don't know, I'm I'm a city slicker, so well, I was about to say I know very little about gardening.
10:46
SPEAKER_09: I almost this summer, so I don't have a gardener, I have a balcony, and um and in the summer it looked so bare and boring compared to our neighbour's balcony, which was like beautifully green and flourishing and verdant, and and um and I I was like the thing is I just don't know how to garden.
11:07
SPEAKER_09: And I almost did a little um plant party and just like sent the word out to all the like wonderful old people.
11:15
SPEAKER_08: You do know how to party.
11:16
SPEAKER_09: Well, yeah, I do, yes.
11:17
SPEAKER_09: And I know how to gather people, and I know and so I was like, maybe I just ask all the like gardening generation in my church to come and donate some plants and tell me how to look after them.
11:26
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
11:27
SPEAKER_09: Um instead, I just bought some fairy lights.
11:30
SPEAKER_08: Man, I did I didn't gardening yesterday just involved for me cutting back all the brambles and then I was complete I was completely done at that stage.
11:38
SPEAKER_08: That's that's all which is it like for us, gardening is like a hobby that we turn our minds to.
11:44
SPEAKER_09: Like if you're just an optional hobby.
11:46
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, right.
11:46
SPEAKER_08: If you're a farmer, yeah, and if you're in an agrarian society, this is this is a this is a parable about investment.
11:54
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
11:55
SPEAKER_08: Like this is how the economy this is how the economy works.
11:57
SPEAKER_08: Okay, I've got a bunch of grain.
11:59
SPEAKER_08: Do I eat the grain or do I sow the grain?
12:01
SPEAKER_08: I could fill my belly today with this amount of grain, or I could invest it in this risky proposition, and then I could fill two bellies tomorrow.
12:10
SPEAKER_08: You know, it's it's that kind of economic thing.
12:14
SPEAKER_08: And should we read it?
12:16
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, okay.
12:17
SPEAKER_09: So Mark Chapter 4 verse three.
12:19
SPEAKER_09: Listen, behold, a sower went out to sow, and as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.
12:27
SPEAKER_09: Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil, and when the sun rose it was scorched, and since it had no root it withered away.
12:39
SPEAKER_09: Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain.
12:43
SPEAKER_09: And other seeds fell into good soil, and produced grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.
12:52
SPEAKER_09: And he said, He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
12:55
SPEAKER_09: And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables.
13:00
SPEAKER_09: And he said to them, To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God.
13:04
SPEAKER_09: But for those outside, everything is in parables, so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.
13:14
SPEAKER_09: And he said to them, Do you not understand this parable?
13:17
SPEAKER_09: How then will you understand all the parables?
13:20
SPEAKER_09: The sower sows the word and these are the ones along the path where the word is sown.
13:25
SPEAKER_09: When they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that was sown in them and these are the ones sown on rocky ground, the ones who, when they hear the word immediately receive it with joy, and they have no root in themselves but endure for a while, then when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.
13:45
SPEAKER_09: And others are one the ones sown among thorns.
13:49
SPEAKER_09: They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
13:59
SPEAKER_09: But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.
14:09
SPEAKER_06: Very cool.
14:10
SPEAKER_08: A hundred times what is sown.
14:12
SPEAKER_08: Ten thousand percent yield.
14:14
SPEAKER_08: So that's successful.
14:16
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
14:18
SPEAKER_08: From that point of view.
14:20
SPEAKER_08: But then, like why why is Jesus telling this parable?
14:23
SPEAKER_08: Like what what's the what's the point of the whole thing?
14:28
SPEAKER_09: I think verse nine is important, isn't it?
14:30
SPEAKER_09: He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
14:33
SPEAKER_09: It's kind of an instruction to listen to his parable, but it's kind of the reason, it's kind of the the actual key to unlock the parable.
14:40
SPEAKER_09: Like he's he's saying those who those who have ears to hear will hear and receive, yeah.
14:46
SPEAKER_09: Um rely on the word, feed on the words, and bear fruit.
14:50
SPEAKER_09: Like there's there's something about that.
14:53
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
14:54
SPEAKER_09: Um yeah.
14:55
SPEAKER_09: But then may maybe we often take this this passage and we we start thinking like, oh, which soil type am I?
15:04
SPEAKER_09: But I think he's it's probably more likely that he's teaching it to think you um that you are the you are the sower to go out.
15:13
SPEAKER_08: Right.
15:14
SPEAKER_09: Is that is that would that be right?
15:15
SPEAKER_08: I think so.
15:16
SPEAKER_08: This is how the kingdom grows.
15:17
SPEAKER_09: Yes, okay, that's helpful.
15:18
SPEAKER_09: Yes.
15:19
SPEAKER_08: And so, yeah.
15:21
SPEAKER_08: And so as certainly as Jesus is encountering people, like he is the word of God, right?
15:28
SPEAKER_08: He is the seed as well, like scripturally speaking.
15:30
SPEAKER_09: But Oh man, you just ruined the punchline.
15:33
SPEAKER_09: What is the seed?
15:34
SPEAKER_09: What is the word?
15:35
SPEAKER_09: What is the seed?
15:35
SPEAKER_09: But like yeah, well no, we'll we'll get into why I say we'll get into that, get into that next time.
15:40
SPEAKER_08: But it's it's kind of like Yeah.
15:42
SPEAKER_08: So Jesus is right now surrounded as he's telling the parable, like there are some hard people in front of him.
15:48
SPEAKER_08: Sure, yeah.
15:48
SPEAKER_08: And there are some shallow people in front of him, and there are some very anxious people in front of him, and there are some really receptive people in front of him.
15:56
SPEAKER_09: Okay, that's quite helpful.
15:57
SPEAKER_09: So you describe so the four scenarios were the path, the rocky ground, the thorny ground, the good soil.
16:04
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
16:04
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
16:05
SPEAKER_09: And thinking about it in terms of peoples, almost minds and hearts.
16:10
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
16:10
SPEAKER_09: You said hard, shallow, shallow, anxious, and receptive, maybe.
16:17
SPEAKER_09: Receptive.
16:18
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
16:18
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
16:19
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
16:20
SPEAKER_08: Which is interesting.
16:21
SPEAKER_08: Like, I don't know, I'm I'm kind of a I'm a good evangelical Calvinist kind of a person who kind of thinks, okay, there's just there's just one or the other, isn't it?
16:29
SPEAKER_09: Like, like you're either you're either You're in the kingdom of darkness or the kings of the sun, each transfer from one to the other.
16:34
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
16:35
SPEAKER_08: There's a dividing line.
16:36
SPEAKER_08: But there are plenty of scriptures actually that sort of talk about there's no there's multiple different places that people can be in.
16:40
SPEAKER_08: And even Paul, who's kind of the most into that kind of teaching, he'll actually say in in sort of 1 Corinthians 14, for instance, oh, and when seekers come in and listen to the gospel message, they'll be like, oh, okay, so like as the word goes out, it's going it's not just going to encounter utter, you know, opposition or utter reception.
17:03
SPEAKER_09: Yes, okay, yeah.
17:05
SPEAKER_08: But there are these sort of four kinds of people.
17:07
SPEAKER_08: And it's interesting, I mean, the these four people are in my life.
17:10
SPEAKER_08: There there are some people who I mention the name of Jesus and they are just double bolted against the gospel and they don't want to know about it to the point where you go, Oh gosh, is there something else going on here?
17:21
SPEAKER_08: And maybe there's all sorts of emotional history about it as well.
17:25
SPEAKER_08: And and on top of that, Jesus says, ah, the birds that gobble up the sea, it's like Satan taking away the word.
17:32
SPEAKER_08: And it's like, yeah, some people are like that.
17:34
SPEAKER_09: That's the thing.
17:34
SPEAKER_09: That I mean, that is hard.
17:36
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
17:36
SPEAKER_09: Just to dwell on the path the the path zone for a bit.
17:41
SPEAKER_09: Like it's not like there there's elsewhere in the Bible where it talks about um someone hard having a hard heart or hardening, you know, like Pharaoh hardens his heart, and then his heart is hardened.
17:51
SPEAKER_09: That that kind of thing of like, but this is just outright when someone hears Satan immediately comes and takes away the word.
17:58
SPEAKER_09: He's not even saying like sometimes it's their own doing, sometimes it's like this makes it sound like it's kind of out of their hands.
18:09
SPEAKER_08: I guess it's quite hard.
18:10
SPEAKER_08: It's got to first bounce off the path for it then to be available to the to the bird.
18:16
SPEAKER_08: Wait, what do you mean?
18:17
SPEAKER_08: Like, so you're sowing the seed, and for the bird to have the opportunity to go and gobble up that seed, it's it's it's because it's first bounced off the hard soil.
18:27
SPEAKER_08: You know, so like I think he is calling us all to, you know, whoever has ears to hear, let them hear kind of thing.
18:34
SPEAKER_08: And he's definitely wanting us to be like this fourth soil type that um as as he says in verse 19, isn't it?
18:42
SPEAKER_09: Oh, yeah, and actually this is helpful because in sorry, yeah, in the m in the Matthew 13 version of it, um when it it talks about the when it's referencing back to um is it Isaiah, the seeing but not perceiving, hearing but not understanding, um it then goes on and continues that from that prophecy, it then says, This people's heart has grown dull with their ears they can barely hear, with their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts.
19:16
SPEAKER_09: And I would heal them.
19:17
SPEAKER_09: So there is there is a like a person has closed their ears and and eyes and heart.
19:25
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
19:25
SPEAKER_09: And therefore, yeah, the seed is the seed is just bouncing off and ready to be snatched away.
19:31
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
19:32
SPEAKER_08: And of course the big shock is as Jesus is speaking the word of God to people, the path is basically the holiest looking people on earth.
19:40
SPEAKER_08: Like it's the it's the religious authorities that are the ones, and the word of God just kind of bounces off them.
19:46
SPEAKER_08: And Satan says, Thank you very much, that's food for me.
19:49
SPEAKER_09: Oh man, that's brut oh that's a horrible way to see it.
19:55
SPEAKER_09: But but very true, you know, he feeds on that.
19:59
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
20:00
SPEAKER_09: The Satan is feeding on the rejection of God's word.
20:03
SPEAKER_09: Oh and that gosh, I've never really thought about it like that.
20:08
SPEAKER_08: Like I'm I'm sure you're you've been in Sussex now for a year.
20:11
SPEAKER_08: You can sort of drive along at this time of year, really, and and the the seed goes out.
20:18
SPEAKER_08: And of course the seagulls are everywhere.
20:20
SPEAKER_09: Oh my gosh, they're everywhere.
20:22
SPEAKER_08: It's it's feeding time, you know.
20:24
SPEAKER_08: So where where is Satan's greatest sort of focus of activity?
20:29
SPEAKER_08: Like, would it be at the heavy metal concert where the singer is like biting the heads off chickens and things like no?
20:36
SPEAKER_08: Like, like where where is Satan and his angels going to be focusing his attention and their attention on more than anywhere anywhere else, like church, right?
20:48
SPEAKER_08: Wherever the seed is propagated, um the birds are active and it's it's kind of it's kind of food for them.
20:55
SPEAKER_09: Gosh, I think we need to another whole episode on that.
20:58
SPEAKER_09: I need to go and chew on that.
21:00
SPEAKER_09: It's kind of spiritual battle, isn't it?
21:02
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
21:04
SPEAKER_08: And what I love is is like, okay, the bird seems so much bigger than the seed here.
21:10
SPEAKER_08: Um but in Matthew's gospel that that chapter ends with, oh, but if the seed takes root and germinates, becomes the plant so great.
21:19
SPEAKER_08: The birds come and perch in the branches.
21:23
SPEAKER_09: It's like Yes.
21:25
SPEAKER_08: In evangelism, you're usually at the stage of the gospel looks so small and weak and pathetic and Satan is so much bigger.
21:33
SPEAKER_09: The crouching the crouching one waiting, ready to devour.
21:39
SPEAKER_08: And it's just bird food.
21:42
SPEAKER_08: And it's like when I when I go past uh a field um when they're scattering the seed in Sussex and I see all the the seagulls, I'm kind of thinking, This is so futile.
21:52
unknown: Yeah.
21:53
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:54
SPEAKER_08: So how do you how do we fail at evangelism?
21:56
SPEAKER_08: Wow.
21:57
SPEAKER_08: Um well it looks like you fail because You're just feeding the birds, aren't you?
22:02
SPEAKER_08: You're not investing.
22:03
SPEAKER_08: You're not this is not fruitful labor, is it?
22:05
SPEAKER_08: It's just feeding those those rats with wings.
22:09
SPEAKER_08: Um but no the long-term vision of what you're doing is um the that same seed.
22:19
SPEAKER_08: Satan looks so much bigger than at the beginning, but actually it sort of outgrows all the forces of evil and you know becomes something so much greater um in the end, but in the actual sowing of the seed.
22:36
SPEAKER_08: Um it looks futile, it looks totally opposed, it looks yeah.
22:42
SPEAKER_09: So actually to fail there is to think you've failed.
22:46
SPEAKER_09: Right, yeah.
22:47
SPEAKER_09: In a way.
22:48
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
22:48
SPEAKER_09: If you think oh it's just pointless.
22:50
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
22:51
SPEAKER_08: Because it's just To not so not so to not so is the failure.
22:55
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
22:55
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah.
22:56
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, okay.
23:00
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24:08
SPEAKER_09: Back to the conversation.
24:12
SPEAKER_09: So there's the the path, and then there's the rocky ground.
24:17
SPEAKER_09: And that, you know, that is the one that has broken my heart too many times.
24:21
SPEAKER_09: Is that it like because it's so exciting.
24:25
SPEAKER_09: And I mean, as as um our new friend Bryce talks about, the question of like, oh, well, how many salvations have you had?
24:32
SPEAKER_09: I've definitely I've heard that kind of terminology before.
24:35
SPEAKER_09: Oh, you know, we're celebrating there's many salvations in this particular outreach.
24:39
SPEAKER_09: And and I find that difficult to get on board with because I have really, really rejoiced at seeing genuine joy in people, like particularly in student ministry.
24:52
SPEAKER_09: Um people really like having a really quick kind of hunger.
24:57
SPEAKER_09: They've tasted a bit of Jesus, they want more of it, they're reading the Bible, they're coming to church and like getting baptized, and then and that's maybe in their first year of university.
25:05
SPEAKER_09: By the time they've left uni, their hearts gone c gone cold and they're yeah, yeah, they're turning away.
25:10
SPEAKER_09: And I yeah, I I mean I was only working in student ministry for four years, but um, but even then, my I think my one of my main lessons as I was reflecting on it was the parable of the Sur is real.
25:23
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
25:24
SPEAKER_09: Because even in those four years, I yeah, I went from really, really rejoicing at those initial stages stories, and so and then by the end of it, I was like, Do you know I'm actually more rejoicing in this 76-year-old retired vicar who got in touch to say that you know, when when they were at university, they came to know Jesus that like through the CU, and then now they're reflecting on their life and they're so grateful for the work.
25:51
SPEAKER_09: And you're like, oh wow, okay, yeah, that's I started I started instead thinking, yes, I'm gonna I'm gonna deline some someone takes joy in Jesus, of course, and has that kind of fresh faith, but come back to me in 10 years and tell me you're still walking with him, yeah, and then let's have a party.
26:11
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah.
26:13
SPEAKER_08: You know, it's the the the second soil type is the sort of the the much faster heartbreak.
26:20
SPEAKER_08: The third soil type, which we'll get to, is slow-motion heartbreak.
26:23
SPEAKER_08: I think this is this is the person who kind of comes on the inside of the Jesus thing for a bit and then leaves kind of as quickly as they as they came.
26:34
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
26:35
SPEAKER_09: Which is what makes counting think, counting numbers of people that pray a prayer or make a commitment or take a Bible, whatever it might be, count counting those things as like a definitive success.
26:46
SPEAKER_09: It's just like actually I like I don't know.
26:52
SPEAKER_09: It's not that we it's not that we want to be skeptical and like withhold any praise, you know.
26:57
SPEAKER_09: Like I I don't want to be like slow to praise God for his for his work.
27:01
SPEAKER_05: Right.
27:01
SPEAKER_09: But I also like on the last day when there's like a whole throng, the multitude gathered around the throne, that will be like, oh my goodness, look at this abundant harvest, that's amazing.
27:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
27:12
SPEAKER_09: Right now, if I was to count, if we were to do that whole counting salvations thing like Bryce is talking about, I I kind of worry that we're actually counting the three quarters of the of the soil types here.
27:26
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
27:27
SPEAKER_09: Because there are three different scenarios in this field where there you see a bit of growth.
27:32
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
27:33
SPEAKER_05: Right.
27:34
SPEAKER_09: But it's not necessarily the actual harvest.
27:37
SPEAKER_09: It was I don't know.
27:38
SPEAKER_08: It's certainly count like to count this as salvation is certainly counting too soon.
27:43
SPEAKER_08: I mean, I I am always challenged by like in in Acts, there are some numbers in Acts.
27:48
SPEAKER_08: Well, yeah, that's so true.
27:49
SPEAKER_08: It's the numbers of the Baptists, which is interesting.
27:52
SPEAKER_09: Added to that, added to their number.
27:55
SPEAKER_09: Added to their number.
27:56
SPEAKER_08: They hear the gospel, repent, believer, baptized, and join the number community.
28:01
SPEAKER_08: Join the community.
28:02
SPEAKER_08: And at that stage, Acts doesn't mind in narrating the story of the growth of the church.
28:07
SPEAKER_08: And that like it like Luke is not writing a fundraising letter to Theophilus.
28:11
SPEAKER_08: If you could, you know, make use stewardship so that you can make your gift tax efficient.
28:16
SPEAKER_08: We actually had 5,000 people join join the number the other day.
28:19
SPEAKER_08: Um that's not why he's writing it, he's writing it because that it's salvation historical and it's it's actually part of the story that God is telling between Genesis and Revelation, yeah.
28:27
SPEAKER_08: Um, which is a different reason for naming numbers than so often, you know, the reason that we give for naming numbers.
28:34
SPEAKER_08: But it does talk about numbers, but but at least those numbers are repent, believe, baptize.
28:39
SPEAKER_08: It's numbers under the water joining the community.
28:42
SPEAKER_08: Um so even if you want to make a case for numbers from Acts, I think you wait for more than this second soil type, which is joy.
28:51
SPEAKER_08: You know, it's it's they they rejoice.
28:54
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
28:54
SPEAKER_08: Um, verse 11.
28:55
SPEAKER_08: They they at once, they immediately receive it with joy, but since they have no root, they last only a short time.
29:02
SPEAKER_08: When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
29:05
SPEAKER_08: So it's the quick in and quick out.
29:08
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:09
SPEAKER_09: ESV says immediately in both.
29:10
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
29:11
SPEAKER_09: Immediately receive it, immediately they fall away.
29:14
SPEAKER_08: And there's so many people like that in my life.
29:16
SPEAKER_08: Most people are not the first soil type in my life.
29:20
SPEAKER_08: Um I think most people are kind of like, yeah, I like Jesus.
29:24
SPEAKER_08: I kind of like Jesus.
29:25
SPEAKER_08: Um certainly if I'm friendly enough with them that we've had a decent sort of conversation with them.
29:31
SPEAKER_08: Some people are very closed and the seed bounces off them, but I think um more people are just like, yeah, I kind of like Jesus.
29:37
SPEAKER_08: But if it costs me anything, you know, I'm not not that interested.
29:41
SPEAKER_08: I'm I'm interested, but I'm not that interested.
29:43
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah.
29:44
SPEAKER_08: And what's so so fascinating to me in this parable is that Jesus doesn't say, um, oh right, so for the second soil type, you need this second strategy, you know.
29:54
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
29:55
SPEAKER_08: Strategy number one for the path, strategy number two for the for the rocky soil.
30:00
SPEAKER_08: It's like, no, no, yeah, yeah.
30:01
SPEAKER_08: You got one job.
30:03
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
30:04
SPEAKER_09: Oh, I just had such a sad time, like, yeah, yeah.
30:09
SPEAKER_09: There's a particular student I think about with Soil Type Number Two, where we had read through most of Mark's gospel together, and she got baptized, and it was all it was all very exciting over the course of a couple of years.
30:23
SPEAKER_09: And then it felt like quite soon after her baptism, I just heard nothing from her for a while, and then we met up, and she basically I think she basically said like she just wants to be able to live her own life and not want worry about whether God what God thinks of what she's doing, and she yeah, like really just very quickly stepped away from it all.
30:43
SPEAKER_09: I was thinking, what is going on here?
30:45
SPEAKER_09: And and just in that moment, I was just sort of praying little panic prayers of like, Lord, what do I do?
30:50
SPEAKER_09: What do I say?
30:51
SPEAKER_09: And I and I think at the end of our I just listened, listened, asked some questions, but just listened for a good while, and then it right at the end of the conversation um I just said, Have you have you um read this story of the the prodigal son in Luke 15?
31:05
SPEAKER_09: Um yet because she was very new to the Bible and kind of gradually going through the gospels and she she she said, No, I'm don't think I'm familiar with it.
31:12
SPEAKER_09: So I just read it, read it through, and then I just said to her, if you ever want to come back, please just know that God God isn't standing with his arms folded, rolling his eyes, and and like like he will always run towards you and embrace you.
31:28
SPEAKER_09: I'd be so delighted to have you back.
31:30
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
31:31
SPEAKER_09: And that actually was the last time we met, but I just I and I yeah.
31:35
SPEAKER_09: I just keep praying for her.
31:38
SPEAKER_08: Good on you.
31:38
SPEAKER_08: And like that's and that is success, right?
31:42
SPEAKER_08: Even though it feels like failure.
31:45
SPEAKER_08: Because Jesus Jesus is like, this is my kind of evangelism.
31:49
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, it's so easy to ask, like, what could I have done differently?
31:51
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
31:52
SPEAKER_09: Like, what could a church have done differently?
31:54
SPEAKER_09: Uh like you know, what is the main thing that yeah, cool sets for but yeah.
31:59
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
32:00
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
32:00
SPEAKER_08: I think it's important that like like I'm always saying, like, evangelism is hit and miss, mainly miss.
32:05
SPEAKER_08: And I think that's one of the take-home messages from this passage.
32:09
SPEAKER_08: It's main it's mainly miss.
32:11
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
32:12
SPEAKER_08: But I love how you you left it with with that girl.
32:16
SPEAKER_08: You're you're you're saying you don't have to remain this soil type.
32:20
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
32:22
SPEAKER_08: That's good point.
32:22
SPEAKER_08: One thing that people can illegitimately take from Mark IV as as though once a hard soil, always a hard soil.
32:30
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:30
SPEAKER_08: That's that's not what Jesus is saying.
32:32
SPEAKER_08: He's just saying he happens to be surrounded by four kinds of receptions to his word.
32:37
SPEAKER_08: But everybody has gone from hard soil to good soil.
32:41
SPEAKER_08: Like if you're a Christian, you've gone on that journey.
32:44
SPEAKER_08: So it's not saying once a shallow soil, always a shallow soil.
32:48
SPEAKER_09: Um Yeah, that's helpful.
32:49
SPEAKER_09: Okay, yeah.
32:50
SPEAKER_09: So in this story, the seed won't change.
32:52
SPEAKER_09: Right.
32:53
SPEAKER_09: But the soil can.
32:54
SPEAKER_08: The soil can.
32:55
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah.
32:56
SPEAKER_08: And time.
32:56
SPEAKER_08: You know, I I I'm often saying to people, like, like somebody might have been a shallow soil, or there might be a really hard sort of path.
33:03
SPEAKER_08: And you sort of you can you can move on from that person in the moment.
33:07
SPEAKER_08: You don't move on from loving them, you never move on from praying for them, but you don't have to like batter down this door that's double bolted against you every single time you meet them.
33:16
SPEAKER_08: You know, it's you have permission to kind of move on and try other soil types, and you circle back and you say, Well, how how about at Christmas time?
33:24
SPEAKER_08: Do you want to come to Carols by candlelight or whatever it is?
33:26
SPEAKER_08: Like you you can't you can circle back because soil types do change and the spirit works on people, and life kind of moves things in people's priorities and so yeah, you you can move on and circle back, and people will be different the next time.
33:44
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, I think soil type number three is like is also difficult.
33:53
SPEAKER_08: This is the slow motion of operate.
33:55
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
33:55
SPEAKER_09: But it's but it's also the one like I really I mean, just even in conversation with my flatmate this weekend, I was like, How do I know if I'm not being choked by the cares of the world and the deceitfulness, deceitfulness of riches?
34:07
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
34:08
SPEAKER_09: Like, you know, desire for other things, or I think in in Luke it says pleasures.
34:12
SPEAKER_09: Like pleasure chokes us.
34:15
SPEAKER_09: How do we even know that's happening?
34:17
SPEAKER_09: Like, what if I am less fruitful than I could be otherwise?
34:20
SPEAKER_09: Or what like yeah, that's the one that that is the one that gets me thinking, like, hang on, this is in this, in this one it says unfruitful.
34:29
SPEAKER_09: In Luke it says it's fruit does not mature.
34:33
SPEAKER_09: And yeah, soil type three is the one that I'm just like, oh, that's a yeah.
34:40
SPEAKER_09: That one feels more like a mirror.
34:42
SPEAKER_09: Yes.
34:43
SPEAKER_08: Yes, 100%.
34:44
SPEAKER_08: Especially because it's so 21st century, even though it's first century.
34:49
SPEAKER_08: The worries of this life, deceitfulness of wealth, and desires for other things, uh like worry, wealth, wanting.
34:57
SPEAKER_08: Like this is life in the 21st century.
34:59
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
35:00
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, it's you are it's you and I, and I think it's the disciples as well.
35:04
SPEAKER_09: Distraction, deceitfulness, desire.
35:07
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
35:07
SPEAKER_09: You know, W's, you can have D's.
35:13
SPEAKER_08: The competition between two alliter two alliterations.
35:17
SPEAKER_08: But like, I think as Jesus is looking around, um, I I think he's kind of there's there's the Pharisees and teachers of the law are pretty path-like for most of the gospels.
35:30
SPEAKER_08: I think there are there are there's sort of a crowd thing that's going on, and the the there are certain sinners that actually come to Christ and for full salvation, and that that's great.
35:39
SPEAKER_08: But but a lot of the crowd, a lot of the time, is sort of, oh, you healed the paralytic when you said, you know, pick up your mat and and walk.
35:48
SPEAKER_08: And they're very glad in the moment, but you know, that gladness sort of goes in and out, and you know, the same crowd that is is saying Hosanna on Palm Sunday is the same crowd that says, you know, crucify him on Good Friday.
36:02
SPEAKER_08: So that's sort of the fickleness of the the sinners and the crowd, I think.
36:06
SPEAKER_08: I I do wonder whether actually the it's the disciples that are the that are these sort of kind of choked ones, such that before the crucifixion, there's there's really only one good soil type.
36:19
SPEAKER_08: That like like Jesus is is the one that really brings this superabundant life and and out of his you know death and resurrection comes the the fruitfulness for the world.
36:31
SPEAKER_08: But I do think that that's that's part of why it's like looking in a mirror to look at the third soil type.
36:36
SPEAKER_08: Because I I think you certainly see the disciples in that description, don't you?
36:41
SPEAKER_08: The you know, the worries of this life, deceitfulness of wealth, desires for other things.
36:44
SPEAKER_08: It's kind of kind of on top of them.
36:46
SPEAKER_08: And this this is the slow-motion heartbreak of yeah, 20 years after being, you know, co-president of the Christian Union with so-and-so.
36:56
SPEAKER_08: And then you sort of you you meet up with them, and so yeah.
37:01
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
37:01
SPEAKER_08: What's what's church like?
37:03
SPEAKER_08: Oh, we haven't gone for 10 years.
37:05
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
37:06
SPEAKER_08: And it seems like this this sort of person is still sort of saying, you know, I'm a Christian, but they're just utterly, utterly choked by everything that gets on top of them.
37:17
SPEAKER_09: And it's and in this, so similar to how you talked about with the path, the s the seed ends up just feeding the birds.
37:24
SPEAKER_09: This one is this so the second one, you're not really feeding other other things, but this one, it feels like it's feeding the weeds or feeding the thorns, um, or something like that.
37:36
SPEAKER_09: I know that's not quite how it's not quite how gardening works, but there is like a the problem is that other things are growing as well.
37:45
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, right.
37:46
SPEAKER_06: Right.
37:46
SPEAKER_09: Um just like sapping the nutrients and the strength from what would otherwise be put into this particular crop or whatever.
37:54
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
37:55
SPEAKER_09: Um, an investment in other things.
38:00
SPEAKER_09: I don't know.
38:02
SPEAKER_08: Which is I mean, that's a great diagnostic tool for discipleship, isn't it?
38:06
SPEAKER_08: Um so that it I I think sort of in my brand of you know evangelical church, we're very good at saying make sure you read your Bible every day, you know, that kind of thing.
38:18
SPEAKER_08: Which is kind of like make make sure the seed is still going in.
38:21
SPEAKER_08: Oh yeah.
38:22
SPEAKER_08: But are we are we attentive to what else is growing in there?
38:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:27
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
38:28
SPEAKER_08: Um but having said that, Jesus doesn't say get out the secateurs and cut back the thorns.
38:34
SPEAKER_09: That is, yeah.
38:34
SPEAKER_09: Well, like you said before, he's not offering different strategies for different soil types.
38:39
SPEAKER_09: He's just offering the same seed, the same sower.
38:43
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
38:44
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
38:45
SPEAKER_09: So have we answered the question, what is success?
38:49
SPEAKER_09: Or I guess maybe more the question is what should we expect?
38:52
SPEAKER_09: Right.
38:53
SPEAKER_09: Um if we think, and it's not even equal, it's not even like a quarter of people respond this way, a quarter of people responding this way.
39:01
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
39:02
SPEAKER_09: Um I'm like, wow, great.
39:03
SPEAKER_09: If 25% of the people that I've spoken to came to share in my joy in Jesus, that'd be wonderful, wouldn't it?
39:11
SPEAKER_09: But um, there's something of what should we expect in order to measure whether what we're doing is what Jesus expected.
39:18
SPEAKER_09: And and and I guess here what it's saying is really all it needs is like one or two little seeds dropped into really good soil and in a few generations' time you'll be feeding the whole city.
39:35
SPEAKER_09: Right.
39:35
SPEAKER_09: You know, there's a kind of a this yeah.
39:39
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, what should we expect?
39:41
SPEAKER_09: We should expect um lots of things that look like failure.
39:46
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
39:47
SPEAKER_09: And we should probably expect that because of the way that there's like this exponential growth of a seed, like this seed that grows and bears fruit over a after a few years, and then that those fruit have seed that go into the ground, they bears more trees.
40:01
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:01
SPEAKER_09: Again, I don't really know much about marriage, but I know that much.
40:04
SPEAKER_09: I know that much.
40:05
SPEAKER_09: Um because it's this exponential growth type graph, um, it's to think at the be it's all it's gonna look like failure, but there will be a a harvest and a fruitfulness.
40:16
SPEAKER_09: But the thing is you probably won't even see it.
40:18
SPEAKER_09: No, and I and I find myself uh praying this quite a lot where I say, I say, um, Lord, we pray that this project, this thing, this talk, whatever, will bear fruit, even if we don't see it.
40:30
SPEAKER_09: Because I think that is the kind of fruit here.
40:32
SPEAKER_09: It's like in a few generations' time or in many, many, many years, then you get to see how much it's it's grown and and and produced.
40:42
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
40:43
SPEAKER_09: And so right now, maybe that means that we can't really go around pointing fingers in a bit like what Bryce was saying, you can't really go around saying, You're going to heaven, you're going to hell.
40:51
SPEAKER_09: I think I'm I'm also a little bit cautious of going around and saying, This person's that kind of soil, that person's that kind of soil.
40:59
SPEAKER_09: Partly because you said they can change, but partly because I don't think we necessarily even know what the good soil has been until many, many years.
41:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
41:08
SPEAKER_09: And we can look back and say, oh wow, okay.
41:11
SPEAKER_09: That one seed planted in the heart of C.S.
41:14
SPEAKER_09: Lewis.
41:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
41:15
SPEAKER_09: Look at the fruit that's like that seed planted in the heart of um Paul or Lydia or do you know you're like, oh, these Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:24
SPEAKER_09: So we can look back over generations and see crazy exponential impact that that that person's faith has had.
41:32
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
41:33
SPEAKER_08: So that in the meantime, what we do focus on is the is the offer of Christ.
41:37
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
41:38
SPEAKER_08: Rather than um, you know, I'm always thinking in terms of offering offering Christ rather than gaining converts.
41:45
SPEAKER_08: And I I think everything in evangelism goes wrong when you start to you go out from an emptiness that says, Okay, the church is empty.
41:55
SPEAKER_08: We need to fill it.
41:56
SPEAKER_08: Okay, and and at that point we we move out of emptiness and we say, Oh world, please fill us.
42:01
SPEAKER_08: We are empty, we need you, and we go and we try and gain converts.
42:04
SPEAKER_08: And at that stage, there's all sorts of things that can get twisted in terms of how you're gonna bait the hook to try and you know, suck the people in, and and you're yeah, you're kind of operating out of an emptiness as opposed to from a fullness you offer Christ, which which is what like Wesley and Whitfield, after a hard day of evangelism back in the 18th century, um, they would never count salvations, right?
42:28
SPEAKER_08: In in their journals.
42:29
SPEAKER_08: They they would write about, you know.
42:31
SPEAKER_08: I mean, Whitfield talked about, you know, speaking in the open air to tens of thousands, but he was an evangelist, so you know you know you can't trust an evangelist in their own sort of self-reportant.
42:40
SPEAKER_08: It was evangelistic, surely.
42:42
SPEAKER_08: But evangelistic.
42:44
SPEAKER_08: But you know, I I think he spoke to a lot, a lot of people in the open air.
42:48
SPEAKER_08: And yet, how would he summarize success in his journals?
42:52
SPEAKER_08: Um, he would talk about people being awakened to the word of God, and and is there are signs of people being awakened to the to the joy of Christ.
43:02
SPEAKER_08: And at that stage, I I think there's a lot of um sort of Mark IV in that.
43:07
SPEAKER_08: It's kind of, oh, this is probably you know, two, three, or four.
43:11
SPEAKER_08: This is soil type two, three, or four at that at this point.
43:13
SPEAKER_08: This person is awakened.
43:15
SPEAKER_08: And um yeah, there there are people who yeah, they might be weeping, they might be desiring salvation, and and um that's why it was called the Great Awakening, right?
43:25
SPEAKER_08: The the Great Awakenings um that were happening both in in Britain and across in America um were not um yeah, they were not revivalistic in the way that we think of.
43:39
SPEAKER_08: We might call them revivals in the moment.
43:42
SPEAKER_08: They kind of called them awakenings because they didn't want to count fruit before it had come.
43:47
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
43:48
SPEAKER_08: And and I I I think that's really that's really, really helpful.
43:51
SPEAKER_08: They would they would never like number salvations, but but what they would write in their journals at the end of a hard day evangelism is just I offered them Christ.
44:00
SPEAKER_08: And so that's success, isn't it?
44:02
SPEAKER_09: It's like like and that's and also that's the strategy.
44:05
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
44:06
SPEAKER_09: So as we think about Yeah, what what is well what is success?
44:10
SPEAKER_09: What are we supposed to expect?
44:10
SPEAKER_09: But also what what is what is the strategy of the sewer?
44:14
SPEAKER_09: What is the sewer doing?
44:15
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
44:20
SPEAKER_09: Um carefulness of the going to def different soils with different approaches and it's the the focus is on actually, and you mention in um how to speak life the book, you say um the power is not in the delivery or the power is not in the method of the sower, it's in the seed, it's in the word.
44:39
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:40
SPEAKER_09: Um and yeah, we'll come we'll come more to that next time.
44:43
SPEAKER_09: But it is it is helpful to think that way round.
44:47
SPEAKER_09: Yes.
44:47
SPEAKER_09: That we are, and that's why this that's why the little strap life for speak life is love Jesus, share Jesus.
44:52
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
44:53
SPEAKER_09: From an overflow, yeah, not um from a sense of need.
44:57
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
44:58
SPEAKER_09: And like I the church needs to gain something from people.
45:03
SPEAKER_08: But it's okay, so that that's good, but it it will call us to be more vulnerable, I think.
45:10
SPEAKER_08: Because this is Jesus is not like, okay, first of all, just identify which soil type's gonna work, and then just narrow all your focus onto that.
45:18
SPEAKER_08: He's he's really encouraging us to have a go with everybody.
45:22
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:22
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
45:23
SPEAKER_08: To try every door to sort of switch analogies.
45:25
SPEAKER_08: It's it's it's very much which means you'll strike out a heck of a lot.
45:29
SPEAKER_08: That's why it's sort of hit and miss evangelism.
45:32
SPEAKER_08: And it it kind of calls you to be vulnerable, it calls you to embrace failure as your MO, kind of it calls you to um put Jesus out there a lot more than he will be received.
45:48
SPEAKER_08: Like you'll you'll offer Christ a lot more than he is received, which is which is tricky because like you name Jesus in a conversation, and you're basically being prepared here for a lot of the time you will offer Christ very vulnerably, and then tumbleweed will blow through the room as the person kind of looks at you and sneers or scowls, or and praise God that in the in the West where where we are, that might be the worst that happens.
46:19
SPEAKER_08: Um maybe the conversation then goes down a route in which somebody wants to accuse you of being a bigot or a phobe or something like that, and and and that's hard.
46:27
SPEAKER_08: And and you know, friendships can be threatened, and and there is a cost to that, but it's it's not the cost of you know being reported to the police um by by the morality police or you know, in in Iran or something like that.
46:41
SPEAKER_09: Um but the cost of friendships and relationships is a big deal.
46:45
SPEAKER_08: It is a big deal.
46:46
SPEAKER_08: It is a big deal.
46:47
SPEAKER_08: Um and we'll get into the sort of thing that we say because this is this is not giving you carte blanche to shoot your mouth off.
46:56
SPEAKER_08: That's the thing.
46:58
SPEAKER_09: Well, yeah, and and same with the I guess like like what Bryce is saying about you know, it's it's more about his reach and what he is doing.
47:07
SPEAKER_09: I do I worry sometimes that that then people then take that to mean like, well, I have said a I've said like my little four-point gosh gospel spiel to a million people this year, tick, well done.
47:21
SPEAKER_05: Like Yeah, yeah, yeah.
47:23
SPEAKER_09: There's a there's a phrase in my mind, I mean, correct me if I've been thinking wrong, but it's um I think I got it a while a while ago from someone else where where they said we don't just have responsibility for the gospel to be spoken but to be heard.
47:35
SPEAKER_09: And I think there is still a need to think about um you know, kies contextualization.
47:42
SPEAKER_09: Who is it we're speaking to?
47:43
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
47:43
SPEAKER_09: Maybe that involves thinking a bit about what kind of swords are whatever, but like it's more, it's more I don't think we can just say, Oh great, success.
47:52
SPEAKER_09: I've like distributed, yeah, distributed a bunch of of tracts or something.
47:57
SPEAKER_06: Like I've kicked tracts at least.
47:59
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah, or like I've it doesn't matter that I've like burnt all my bridges and I've lost all my friends, at least I've told them all about Jesus.
48:05
SPEAKER_06: Like Oh, I don't know.
48:07
SPEAKER_09: But like that's one side of the horse you can fall off.
48:10
SPEAKER_09: And the but the other side that I think we are probably more likely is um saying people's no for them, assuming hard source.
48:18
SPEAKER_08: Say more about that.
48:19
SPEAKER_08: You say people's no for them.
48:20
SPEAKER_09: So thinking that in our like kind of to assume that someone is a path type.
48:27
SPEAKER_06: Right.
48:27
SPEAKER_09: Where it's just gonna bounce off them, it's just gonna reject it anyway.
48:30
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
48:31
SPEAKER_09: And so I'm not even gonna offer.
48:32
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
48:33
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
48:34
SPEAKER_09: And that is actually what failure looks like.
48:37
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
48:37
SPEAKER_09: Is to not so is to is to assume um close assume failure.
48:43
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
48:43
SPEAKER_09: Or to avoid, avoid, avoid it.
48:45
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
48:46
SPEAKER_09: You know?
48:46
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
48:47
SPEAKER_08: So you say they're no for them by by Yes.
48:50
SPEAKER_08: And and even if you sort of you're probably not gonna want to come to church with me on something.
48:54
SPEAKER_09: But but you could if you're I mean, you probably do that kind of thing quite a lot, to be honest.
48:58
SPEAKER_09: And I mean it's how it's how I encourage Yeah, well it's how I encourage people to read read a gospel, is that I'm like, you're an atheist?
49:05
SPEAKER_09: I'm like, wow, have you ever read Reggie's life story before?
49:07
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
49:08
SPEAKER_09: No.
49:08
SPEAKER_09: Well, you've got to at least know what you're saying no to.
49:10
SPEAKER_09: Why don't you take this copy of it, scribble all the things you hate about it, write down all your questions, and come tell me how much you hated it and we have a conversation.
49:17
SPEAKER_09: So there's sometimes I think it can you know in meeple where they're at.
49:21
SPEAKER_08: But yeah, yeah.
49:22
SPEAKER_08: But what you're saying with your words and what you're saying with your offer are quite different at that point.
49:25
SPEAKER_08: That's true.
49:25
SPEAKER_08: That's true.
49:26
SPEAKER_08: You're probably gonna hate this idea, but you know Yeah, yeah.
49:29
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, don't say they're known for them.
49:31
SPEAKER_08: I think that's that's really, really important in evangelism.
49:34
SPEAKER_08: And and so we'll we'll get into in a future episode, like what is it that we actually say, because the seed is very particular, and it's not it's not just burping an ul uh an ultimatum at people.
49:46
SPEAKER_08: Um it is the word of God, and we'll think about you know what or who the word of God is.
49:52
SPEAKER_08: And we we might think about, you know, this is not the only paradigm for evangelism.
49:57
SPEAKER_08: You know, Paul goes to Athens and he very well contextualized his his message to, you know, the the the audience that he's speaking to.
50:05
SPEAKER_08: Um so this doesn't do all the work for us, but it it at least I'll tell you what it does for my for my heart.
50:13
SPEAKER_08: Um I was an evangelist for a church that was incredibly evangelistic in central London, and um I was there for three years and preaching my heart out, and we did a great job as a church of getting people on a Sunday, such that probably half the congregation on it on any given Sunday was not Christian, and they knew they were not Christian, they were just happy to be part of the community.
50:36
SPEAKER_08: And so my final sermon before going off to Bible college, I'm kind of preaching from Psalm 32 and calling people to find forgiveness in Christ and come home to Jesus, come home to Jesus, and I mean tears in the pulpit and and I do something that I I do sometimes, not very often, but I I just said, look, at the end of this, if you want to come and just tell Jesus that you want in on him, I'll be standing right there at the front of church while everybody else goes to the back of church for coffee.
51:06
SPEAKER_08: I'll be standing at the front.
51:08
SPEAKER_08: Why don't you come and stand with me and we'll just get this sorted out?
51:10
SPEAKER_08: We'll just pray.
51:10
SPEAKER_08: We'll just pray to Jesus.
51:12
SPEAKER_08: And don't worry if everyone's going in the opposite direction, you know, the the rest of your Christian life, you'll be swimming against the tide.
51:17
SPEAKER_08: That's okay.
51:18
SPEAKER_08: Come and do that.
51:19
SPEAKER_08: And so having preached my heart out and the and the service finishes, and I sort of stand at the front of church alone.
51:26
SPEAKER_08: Not a single person comes forward.
51:29
SPEAKER_08: And not only am I thinking, gosh, that was a real stinker of a sermon, I'm thinking that was a real stinker of three years.
51:34
SPEAKER_08: Like, what like what have I done for three years?
51:36
SPEAKER_08: Reaching out with Christ and begging people to come home to Jesus.
51:40
SPEAKER_08: And so a friend of mine is is giving is on coffee at the back, and he spots that I'm kind of by myself.
51:47
SPEAKER_08: And so after about five minutes, he he pours a cup of coffee and he walks down the aisle and he hands me the coffee and he tr he transforms my mood in about four words.
51:58
SPEAKER_08: It's it's the most efficient pastoral care I've ever received.
52:01
SPEAKER_08: He just he just said, You sowed the seed.
52:04
SPEAKER_08: I was like, like literally, uh I can even feel right now like the release of pressure.
52:13
SPEAKER_08: Oh, so that's what those three years were about.
52:15
SPEAKER_08: And that's what that sermon was about.
52:16
SPEAKER_08: And that's like you sowed the seed.
52:19
SPEAKER_08: It's like hit and miss, mainly miss, but that's a success.
52:24
SPEAKER_08: Job done.
52:24
SPEAKER_08: And I could move on to the next, you know, soil type and the next the next the next part of my life.
52:30
SPEAKER_08: But I I think grasping that is really liberating.
52:34
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
52:34
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, you sowed, you sowed the seed, and that is the job of the sower.
52:40
SPEAKER_09: That is the strategy, is more about the activity of the br the broadcasting and the being um offering out this seed, this word, this Jesus.
52:53
SPEAKER_09: And so next time we'll come to what is the seed?
52:57
SPEAKER_09: What do we mean by sowing the seed?
53:00
SPEAKER_09: What what counts as having done that?
53:03
SPEAKER_09: Um but interesting to to just have started off today with what is success?
53:08
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
53:08
SPEAKER_09: How do we see that in in the nature of the soils and also what is the strategy?
53:12
SPEAKER_09: How do we see that in the job of the sewer?
53:13
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah.
53:14
SPEAKER_08: Um You're gonna put this into practice on Friday, aren't you?
53:17
SPEAKER_09: Oh, you're gonna hold me to it now.
53:20
SPEAKER_09: You're on record.
53:21
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah, no, it's true.
53:23
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah, it's fun.
53:26
SPEAKER_08: Yes, yes.
53:26
SPEAKER_09: Although the the church that I'm I'm doing it with, they don't call it door knocking, they call it um oh, what do they call it?
53:33
SPEAKER_09: Community visits or something, community engagement, something like that.
53:36
SPEAKER_09: Um and yeah.
53:38
SPEAKER_09: But it will be good.
53:39
SPEAKER_09: It will be good it will be good for me to go and fail.
53:43
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
53:44
SPEAKER_08: And we're not we're not saying that everybody needs to go and door knock, but I think some method of reaching the entirety of your locality is hinted at.
53:57
SPEAKER_08: I think the the whole of the church needs to reach the whole of the locality.
54:02
SPEAKER_08: Otherwise, we're not really sowing on all the soils.
54:05
SPEAKER_08: Are we?
54:05
SPEAKER_08: We're we're just deciding that, oh we'll we'll just, you know, have our little garden patch here and we won't scatter the seed more broadly.
54:11
SPEAKER_08: So I th I don't think everybody needs to go door knocking.
54:14
SPEAKER_08: But I think I think the whole of the church needs to reach the whole of the locality and not say people's no for them.
54:19
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah.
54:20
SPEAKER_09: Or or it's just and it's just taking stock of who is who is in your life and in your yeah.
54:27
SPEAKER_09: So whether it's the church nationally, globally, whether it's your local church, but also us individually.
54:33
SPEAKER_09: And I just I think of Paul in under house arrest uh in Rome, he's got the Roman guards and he's and we see about it in in Philippians, where he says that it's been made known throughout the entire Roman that he's in chains for Christ in in chapter one, and then in chapter four, when he's saying his little greetings and grace and peace, and and he says, Um, those of Caesar's household greet you.
54:58
SPEAKER_09: Greetings from all the brothers and sisters here, including those of Caesar's household.
55:02
SPEAKER_09: And you're like, ah Paul didn't even think that being in like under house arrest or in in prison or whatever his situation was, like he he was still like, Okay, cool, I've still got some different soil here.
55:15
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
55:17
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
55:18
SPEAKER_09: Not counting them out.
55:19
SPEAKER_08: So the X17 thing is that like like Paul said in Athens, like God has determined the exact times and places where we should live.
55:26
SPEAKER_08: He's done this so that people would reach out and find him, though he's not far from each one of us.
55:30
SPEAKER_08: So every geographical locality has an evangelistic purpose behind it.
55:34
SPEAKER_08: And so I've okay, I'm here.
55:36
SPEAKER_08: Um and the person next to me is here.
55:39
SPEAKER_08: Why?
55:40
SPEAKER_08: So that people might reach out and find God, though he's not far from each one of us.
55:44
SPEAKER_08: So maybe with Mark IV in mind, we'll think, hmm, I'll have a go.
55:49
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
55:50
SPEAKER_08: I'll have a go.
55:51
SPEAKER_08: What we'll say, well, we can figure that out next time.
55:54
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
55:55
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, indeed.
55:56
SPEAKER_08: Brilliant.
55:56
SPEAKER_08: Thank you, Evangelist Nanny Grant.
55:59
SPEAKER_08: Um you've you've passed your appraisal, just so you know.
56:03
SPEAKER_08: You're enough of a failure for Speak Life.
56:06
SPEAKER_08: Just so you know.
56:07
SPEAKER_08: That is great.
56:08
SPEAKER_08: You fit right in amongst us failures.
56:11
SPEAKER_08: Um we'd love to know how this is striking you.
56:14
SPEAKER_08: Um and uh yeah, how does the parable of Mark chapter four help you in your evangelism?
56:21
SPEAKER_08: And uh yeah, if you've got some ideas for what it looks like to scatter the seed uh across lots of different soil types, let us know.
56:28
SPEAKER_08: It's podcast at speaklife.org.uk.
56:31
SPEAKER_08: That's true, isn't it?
56:32
SPEAKER_08: Just singular podcast.
56:33
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, just podcast.
56:35
SPEAKER_08: Podcast at speaklife.org.uk.
56:37
SPEAKER_08: And uh we'd love to read out some some of your correspondence next time.
56:41
SPEAKER_09: Well, yes, we'll probably gather some um any questions for maybe a QA episode at the end of our miniseries.
56:48
SPEAKER_09: That'll be fun.
56:49
SPEAKER_06: Love it.
56:50
SPEAKER_09: Amy, thank you.
56:51
SPEAKER_09: Thank you, Glenn.