Latest / Ministry Minded / Status, Social Perfectionism, and How the Gospel Frees You to Try with Griffin Gooch

Transcript

Status, Social Perfectionism, and How the Gospel Frees You to Try with Griffin Gooch · Ministry Minded

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SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
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a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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in our messy
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SPEAKER_01: ministries.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm your host,
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SPEAKER_01: Pastor Brad Gray,
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SPEAKER_01: the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church right here in Paxinus,
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SPEAKER_01: Pennsylvania.
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SPEAKER_01: And on this edition of the show,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to have once again my fellow substacker Griffin Gooch.
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SPEAKER_01: He writes at Reality Theology.
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SPEAKER_01: You can find his substack.
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SPEAKER_01: Make sure you subscribe to that.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm so happy to have him on.
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SPEAKER_01: We just had such a good time.
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SPEAKER_01: talking about so many different things,
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SPEAKER_01: even things that we didn't even plan on talking about in this episode,
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talking about a theology of happiness and how the gospel helps
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us be free and
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unshackle us from this status perfectionism that sometimes
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seems to change.
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SPEAKER_01: just overwhelm us and overtake us and drive our decisions.
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SPEAKER_01: So how does the gospel inform that?
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SPEAKER_01: How does it free us from that?
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SPEAKER_01: Well, we talk about that.
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SPEAKER_01: We talk about what it means to be a young person and have ambition,
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whether it's in academia or whether it's in theology or whether
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it's in ministry.
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SPEAKER_01: We talk about that and we talk about some of his writing projects.
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SPEAKER_01: And it was such a joy and delight to talk to Griffin.
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SPEAKER_01: He's such a
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SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
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SPEAKER_01: on the podcast again.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm so happy that you're here.
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In 2026,
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we were just talking just beforehand that we're already like
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two weeks into 2026.
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SPEAKER_01: How are you doing?
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SPEAKER_01: How are you dealing with that?
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SPEAKER_01: And how is life recently?
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I must say I am also shocked by the news that we're already
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halfway through January.
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SPEAKER_02: It's been good, though.
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SPEAKER_02: I just started a new semester.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty fresh as an adjunct professor at this point in my life,
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so I'm trying to get my footing in making sure that my students
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don't actually hate
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SPEAKER_02: me.
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And also I read some research that younger professors typically
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get rated worse
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SPEAKER_02: because they don't really know what they're doing yet.
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SPEAKER_02: And so students can kind of find them frustrating.
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And also their thoughts tend to be more disorganized because
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they don't have as
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SPEAKER_02: much experience teaching.
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SPEAKER_02: So I'm trying to be very cognizant of not doing a bad job.
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SPEAKER_01: How are you pushing back against those trends then?
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SPEAKER_01: What's the secret to not letting yourself become a part of those trends?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, I mean, I'm just trying.
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SPEAKER_02: Well,
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so this is one of the things that's almost pretty universal
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with people who are in
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SPEAKER_02: any college or university.
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You'll notice that your professor grades your stuff so much
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better than your TAs.
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SPEAKER_02: Sometimes your TAs are rude,
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SPEAKER_02: they're blunt,
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SPEAKER_02: they're not giving you good feedback,
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SPEAKER_02: and they also just give you a worse grade in general.
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SPEAKER_02: And I mean,
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SPEAKER_02: there could be part of it where it's like the professor is tenured and,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: they're like,
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SPEAKER_02: I don't really mind.
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SPEAKER_02: I'll just give people good grades.
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SPEAKER_02: But I think it's I think it's just more than that.
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SPEAKER_02: It's like when you're when you're younger,
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you kind of have like this overzealousness about the way that
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you do things and you
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SPEAKER_02: think that everything has to be a specific way or,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: you have kind of like a almost like a messianic complex and times.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I just know that from my experience,
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my TAs or even just the younger professors that I've had have
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always been much
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SPEAKER_02: tougher in a sense.
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SPEAKER_02: You might like them.
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SPEAKER_02: You might think they're cool,
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but they're not giving you some of the necessary encouragement
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that you would need
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SPEAKER_02: from a professor,
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SPEAKER_02: somebody who's older than you,
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SPEAKER_02: somebody that you look up to.
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I was just trying to approach...
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I'm trying to teach some of these students.
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SPEAKER_02: They're only like...
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SPEAKER_02: Most of them are like six years younger than me or something like that.
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But I'm trying to instill in them this this idea that I have
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such high expectations for you.
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SPEAKER_02: I really do believe in you.
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I don't think that you're like a tick tock addicted monster who
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has no hope.
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SPEAKER_02: Right.
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SPEAKER_02: I believe that you I believe that you can do great things in your life.
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And so I want to encourage you with that,
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but also challenge you to high standards.
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SPEAKER_02: You know, there's that.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: I can't remember who did this or anything,
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SPEAKER_02: but when psychologists were looking at how to motivate young people,
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They found that the best feedback that you can give to students
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who are working on
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SPEAKER_02: essays or,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: really projects of any kind is to say,
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SPEAKER_02: you give them their feedback and you are pretty tough about it.
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SPEAKER_02: You point out all the flaws.
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SPEAKER_02: You're very thorough.
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SPEAKER_02: You're like, you did this wrong here.
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SPEAKER_02: You did that wrong here.
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SPEAKER_02: But then at the end of it,
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SPEAKER_02: you just say,
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I'm leaving these comments because I have high expectations for
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you and I know that
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SPEAKER_02: you can reach them.
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SPEAKER_02: And apparently students respond to that across the board.
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SPEAKER_02: They love that kind of thing because it appeals to their sense of,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: longing for,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: Longing to have some figure that they look up to be proud of them.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I try to do that in some small way in my classes.
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SPEAKER_02: You can't just naturally at the end of every assignment just say,
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I'm doing this because I believe in you and I believe you have
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high standards.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to help you get there.
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SPEAKER_02: Because then that would just come across kind of perfunctory.
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SPEAKER_02: So I'm trying in small ways just to inspire them.
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Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: That's great, Griffin.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm glad to hear that.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think what is standing out to me,
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SPEAKER_01: at least while we were just chatting about that,
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SPEAKER_01: is like I would be on the younger side of pastoral ministry.
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SPEAKER_01: You are perhaps on the younger side of academic professorship.
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SPEAKER_01: What are some ways – like I kind of feel –
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SPEAKER_01: That pressure sometimes as like a younger guy in ministry and reading,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: Paul talking to Timothy,
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SPEAKER_01: don't let anyone despise your youth.
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How is some of those similar things in your context of being in
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the academic world?
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SPEAKER_01: Like, how have you tried to?
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Not let people look down on your youth,
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so to speak,
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if I can say it that way.
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SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense what I'm trying to ask you?
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SPEAKER_01: Hopefully it does.
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, man.
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Yeah,
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well,
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I mean,
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it really does kind of depend on the context that you're coming
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from.
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SPEAKER_02: And also, I will say, like, for a pastor, you are extremely young.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know what it is about.
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I don't know if you listen to the Mere Fidelity podcast,
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but they were talking about this.
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SPEAKER_01: I haven't listened to it.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like an extension of mere orthodoxy, the publication.
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SPEAKER_02: And they had this episode on ambition,
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and the guys on the podcast were talking about how they noticed
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that it was just so
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odd that there's not many young people who are striving to
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become head pastors or
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SPEAKER_02: plant a church or anything anymore.
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SPEAKER_02: Whereas 20 years ago,
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you had so many young guys who were basically biting at the
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reins to try to start
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SPEAKER_02: it off.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: after, after I respond, I'm curious about that for you.
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SPEAKER_02: Like,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: what,
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SPEAKER_02: what was different about,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: you that kind of,
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SPEAKER_02: cause I mean,
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SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be honest,
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SPEAKER_02: I work with so many people in ministry.
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I go to school with tons of kids that are interested in going
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to ministry.
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SPEAKER_02: And then I teach a lot of kids that are,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: going to,
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SPEAKER_02: into ministry,
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SPEAKER_02: but I don't see a lot of that interest in like,
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SPEAKER_02: Oh,
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let me actually plan a church or let me lead this organization
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or things along
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SPEAKER_02: those lines.
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SPEAKER_02: It's more like I'll do something like off to the side.
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SPEAKER_02: I might, you know, kind of,
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SPEAKER_02: just try to be an interim pastor or worship leader or anything.
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SPEAKER_02: But anyways,
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I probably should have given you that question after I answered
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your part of the
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SPEAKER_02: question.
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SPEAKER_02: But I would say for me,
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you kind of really do just have to meet people in the context
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that they're coming
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SPEAKER_02: from.
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SPEAKER_02: For the most part,
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SPEAKER_02: In my academic experience,
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SPEAKER_02: I've been blessed with people who are not put off by young people,
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that are not worried that this young person is going to come up
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and take their job
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SPEAKER_02: or anything,
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which is not really what I was planning to do for them in the
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first place.
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SPEAKER_02: So when you have people like that, it's wonderful.
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SPEAKER_02: You guys can just bond.
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SPEAKER_02: You can have fun conversations.
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SPEAKER_02: There's no status fighting or anything like that.
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There are times when you do meet somebody who's a little bit
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older and they're very
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SPEAKER_02: standoffish.
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SPEAKER_02: They're like, oh, well, you haven't read all of St.
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SPEAKER_02: Thomas's Summa Theologica.
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And so I suggest you stay out of this conversation or something
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like that.
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Which is,
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yeah,
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that was a real situation in my life that I've been through.
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SPEAKER_02: But so I think just you kind of have to meet people where they're at.
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SPEAKER_02: And I mean,
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SPEAKER_02: if you're a student,
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SPEAKER_02: I mean,
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SPEAKER_02: a student really loves having,
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SPEAKER_02: I think for the most part,
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they like the idea of having a young professor or even just a
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young pastor in
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SPEAKER_02: general.
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Because a lot of the pastors or professors that they're used to
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are pretty old.
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SPEAKER_02: They're getting up there in the age range.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I think they like that.
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SPEAKER_02: And so when you're in that context,
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SPEAKER_02: it's pretty easy to kind of be yourself as long as you're maintaining the
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SPEAKER_02: boundaries and not using too much Gen Z slang,
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SPEAKER_02: which I just feel.
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SPEAKER_02: I feel like as I'm getting a little bit older...
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There's just new Gen Z phrases that I can't get away with
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saying as well or as confidently.
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SPEAKER_01: Have you tried to work any in your lectures yet?
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SPEAKER_02: I have.
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SPEAKER_02: I have.
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Sometimes it goes well,
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but then other times I'm just worried that I'm becoming kind of
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corny.
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SPEAKER_02: Actually,
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SPEAKER_02: it's what the Gen Zs call an unk,
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SPEAKER_02: like UNC,
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SPEAKER_02: is somebody who's trying to employ Gen Z slang,
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SPEAKER_02: but they're too old to make it work.
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SPEAKER_02: So I am worried about that.
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SPEAKER_01: The more I learn about Gen Z slang,
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the more I'm starting to feel like that Clint Eastwood meme
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from whatever that
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SPEAKER_01: movie was where he's just like,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: scowling.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know what half of it means.
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SPEAKER_01: But anyways, that's just making me feel really old sometimes.
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SPEAKER_01: Maybe I don't keep up with the trends enough.
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SPEAKER_01: But anyways, keep going.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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but I think the one that's definitely made me feel the oldest
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out of all of them is
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SPEAKER_02: nowadays people are saying maxing at the end of everything.
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SPEAKER_02: So it's like if you're... Oh, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's like if you're...
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SPEAKER_02: going on like a shopping spree,
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SPEAKER_02: you're like shopping maxing,
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SPEAKER_02: or if you're happy,
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SPEAKER_02: you're joy maxing.
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SPEAKER_02: I think there's a lot of those lines.
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SPEAKER_02: I feel like that makes me feel old.
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SPEAKER_02: Like, I feel like I'm out of touch.
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SPEAKER_02: That's funny.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Anyways, it really just depends on the context in general.
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SPEAKER_02: I mean,
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I do get really discouraged because there are many older
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professors who are not
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SPEAKER_02: very encouraging.
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SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I can see like...
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wanting to instill some sense of respect or fortitude or even
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just mannerisms that
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SPEAKER_02: kind of go along with a respectable academic setting.
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SPEAKER_02: At the same time, I just want there to be more of a
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How can you impart those values without kind of extending into
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sort of just a
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SPEAKER_02: superiority complex or something along those lines?
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SPEAKER_02: But, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
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SPEAKER_02: I'll pass it on to you, though.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm curious.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it is interesting.
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SPEAKER_01: When I first got to my current call here in Pennsylvania,
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SPEAKER_01: it is fascinating because I was like sub 30.
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SPEAKER_01: I was 29 years old, which that's really young for a senior pastorate.
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SPEAKER_01: That's super young.
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SPEAKER_01: Part of it was I was just thoroughly convinced.
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SPEAKER_01: It's like I've seen other people in other fields where it's like,
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SPEAKER_01: oh,
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SPEAKER_01: you know that for whatever reason,
11:50
SPEAKER_01: whatever field they're entering,
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SPEAKER_01: like like God has put them right where they need to be.
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SPEAKER_01: And there's no question about there's no doubting about that.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: And I knew that like.
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SPEAKER_01: Regardless of anything else,
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SPEAKER_01: like there's like – I don't mean to like talk in cliches,
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SPEAKER_01: but Jeremiah 20.
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SPEAKER_01: In Jeremiah 20,
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he talks about – the prophet talks about like the idea that God
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has put this
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message to him of like a fire in his bones and that he would
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like almost die if he
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SPEAKER_01: didn't get it out.
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SPEAKER_01: And I remember in college there was some of those –
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Ways that we often are changing in college,
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like changing,
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like,
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what do we really believe?
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SPEAKER_01: Some of those beliefs that we grew up with are maybe materializing or,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
12:32
SPEAKER_01: they're gestating into other things,
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SPEAKER_01: maybe slightly different than what you learned when you were youth,
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SPEAKER_01: whatever.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: But I was being grabbed by...
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SPEAKER_01: In college,
12:40
SPEAKER_01: just by the clarity and the simplicity of the gospel of grace,
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SPEAKER_01: it was just like,
12:47
SPEAKER_01: I need to get this out.
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And so I started,
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you know,
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back then I started just like,
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this shows you how long ago it was.
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SPEAKER_01: I was putting stuff on Tumblr, which, you know, whatever.
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I was writing on Tumblr and just getting stuff because I needed
13:02
to get it out,
13:03
SPEAKER_01: and I couldn't wait to just talk about it.
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SPEAKER_01: Obviously,
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SPEAKER_01: I did it really poorly back then,
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but I think that's part of the process too is being okay with
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doing theology not as
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SPEAKER_01: like an A-plus level and letting that kind of –
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: And whether that's in an academic setting or in,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
13:45
SPEAKER_01: a pastoral setting,
13:46
SPEAKER_01: I think that that takes a good relationship with you and,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
13:49
SPEAKER_01: the congregation and people around you,
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SPEAKER_01: having the trust of your elders,
13:52
SPEAKER_01: just to be like,
13:53
SPEAKER_01: we're going to work alongside this guy and allow him to grow.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: Like,
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if you looked at some of my sermons when I first got to
14:01
Stonington to now,
14:02
SPEAKER_01: you would probably—I would hopefully—you would see,
14:04
SPEAKER_01: like—
14:05
SPEAKER_01: The core message is the same,
14:07
SPEAKER_01: but all of the stuff around it is probably different,
14:09
SPEAKER_01: the way I'm able to carry myself,
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just because I've been able to let some of those other things
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kind of fall away as
14:17
SPEAKER_01: I've grown.
14:18
I think that that's part of the thing,
14:20
too,
14:21
is letting...
14:23
It's like a deer learning how to walk.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: Let them stumble.
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SPEAKER_01: Let people stumble.
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SPEAKER_01: I think both in academic and ministerial settings...
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Being okay enough to be like,
14:35
the Holy Spirit's going to work in that person.
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And they don't have to have it all,
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like,
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you don't have to have read all of Aquinas' Summa yet.
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SPEAKER_01: You don't even have to have all of Calvin's Institutes read yet.
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SPEAKER_01: You can let them kind of learn on the fly.
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SPEAKER_01: I think being okay with that.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: And I would love to, like...
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we talk about like flying the wall things or like back to the
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future things.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: Like where would you go if you had a DeLorean?
15:01
Sometimes I wish like we could see like what Paul and Timothy's
15:06
relationship was
15:07
SPEAKER_01: like,
15:08
SPEAKER_01: like,
15:09
SPEAKER_01: like,
15:09
SPEAKER_01: cause we like,
15:10
SPEAKER_01: there's so many times where he,
15:11
he references Timothy or he references Titus and how dear they
15:15
were to him.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: But I wonder like, like this is just me just totally making something up.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: But like, let's say like they went to like Thessalonica and,
15:23
SPEAKER_01: Was Paul just like, hey, Tim, you're going to preach tonight?
15:27
SPEAKER_01: And he just kind of lets him fail, but he's okay with it.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: I kind of like to think romantically that he did.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: But I wonder what that relationship was like,
15:38
SPEAKER_01: because later on,
15:39
SPEAKER_01: when he's writing to Timothy,
15:41
SPEAKER_01: he says,
15:42
SPEAKER_01: don't let anyone despise your youth.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: But he talks about so often...
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SPEAKER_01: This notion of,
15:47
SPEAKER_01: like,
15:47
SPEAKER_01: don't be ashamed of the gospel,
15:49
SPEAKER_01: which you can read into that whenever you want.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I read into that,
15:52
SPEAKER_01: like,
15:52
SPEAKER_01: that,
15:52
SPEAKER_01: like,
15:53
SPEAKER_01: youthful anxiety of,
15:56
SPEAKER_01: like,
15:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to mess this up.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: And Paul's just like,
15:58
SPEAKER_01: no,
15:59
don't be ashamed of what I have been entrusted with by Christ
16:04
and what now I'm
16:04
SPEAKER_01: entrusting to you,
16:06
SPEAKER_01: which is...
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Preach the word, man.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: Just get in the word.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: Preach that.
16:09
Don't let all of these other mythology things distract you or
16:13
all these other arguments.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: Just do this.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Preach what you know.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, I'm probably rambling now.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: But I love all that stuff because I think it's helpful for us.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Like you're saying, I don't know.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't see the same sort of...
16:28
SPEAKER_01: I'll say this and I'll let you respond,
16:31
SPEAKER_01: but I don't see in certain contexts or whatever,
16:37
SPEAKER_01: like this drive,
16:40
SPEAKER_01: like you're saying,
16:40
SPEAKER_01: to be a church planner or a pastor or whatever.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: And I think maybe it's because we haven't done a good job at like...
16:53
instilling in young pastors what it's really going to be like
16:57
and so we give them a
16:58
certain view of ministry and then when they get in there it's
17:01
like holy mackerel
17:02
like this is a little bit different than what i thought and so
17:06
then they get out
17:06
SPEAKER_01: like i know a lot of guys that are not in ministry anymore but
17:09
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's a cynical view,
17:10
but I think we haven't given them enough of the teeth of this
17:16
is what it's like.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: I could probably rattle off a couple of things.
17:22
There's no seminary class on how to run a board meeting with
17:28
deacons and elders
17:29
SPEAKER_01: when you're the youngest one in the room.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: That was a thing for me that was so striking.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: I could have been all of these guys' son or even grandson.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: And I'm the one that's, like, supposed to run this meeting.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: But, like, how do you do that?
17:44
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, stuff like that is, like, what I'm talking about.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, there's a lot more we can – anyways, keep – yeah, whatever.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: No, that is – I mean, honestly, that is so good.
17:53
And I will just say,
17:55
just to encourage you,
17:56
that's extremely impressive,
17:57
man.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: I do not know –
17:59
Any of my friends who are in that age range at all who are
18:05
wanting to lead a board
18:06
SPEAKER_02: meeting,
18:06
SPEAKER_02: let alone just doing it.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: So I applaud you so much for that.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: But as you were talking,
18:13
I was also just thinking there's a lot of issues with the
18:18
social perfectionism
18:19
SPEAKER_02: within young people right now where it's almost like
18:24
SPEAKER_02: If you're talking about clinical perfectionism,
18:28
it more has to do with making sure that everything in your
18:31
house looks perfect,
18:33
SPEAKER_02: that everything is a certain way.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: working on a project,
18:36
SPEAKER_02: it has to be a very specific way,
18:38
SPEAKER_02: but social perfectionism is more of just that,
18:41
it's almost just applying that kind of perfectionism to all of
18:43
your relationships,
18:45
SPEAKER_02: where it's like,
18:45
SPEAKER_02: I cannot mess up,
18:47
SPEAKER_02: I can't be seen messing up,
18:48
SPEAKER_02: and if I do anything wrong,
18:50
SPEAKER_02: that's actually a reflection on who I am,
18:52
SPEAKER_02: and everybody is going to hate me for it.
18:55
It's just this constant anxiety that if you mess up in any way,
18:59
either big or small,
19:00
SPEAKER_02: You know, everybody's going to essentially turn your back on you.
19:03
You're going to,
19:04
you know,
19:05
lose your social standing or whatever you want to call it.
19:09
You know,
19:10
you won't be popular or liked anymore,
19:12
things along those lines.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: And so we see this a lot in...
19:16
academia right now where younger people are starting to publish
19:22
or even submit
19:22
SPEAKER_02: stuff to get published less and less at this point in time.
19:28
SPEAKER_02: Just for those who don't know,
19:29
SPEAKER_02: when you're doing academic publishing,
19:31
SPEAKER_02: you find a journal that pertains to your article.
19:34
SPEAKER_02: You submit it to the journal.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: It goes to this blind peer review process where scholars who are
19:40
SPEAKER_02: experts in their field,
19:41
SPEAKER_02: read your journal article,
19:42
SPEAKER_02: and then assess it to see whether it's any good to be accepted.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: For whatever reason,
19:47
the younger demographics like millennials and then down below
19:51
that are just not
19:53
SPEAKER_02: submitting as much stuff as past generations have.
19:56
If you're looking at who's submitting the most stuff,
19:58
it's mainly elder millennials onward.
20:03
When you're talking with professors about why this is,
20:05
a lot of them just say they're
20:07
these kids who are even interning or they might even be TAs or
20:11
anything along those
20:12
SPEAKER_02: lines,
20:13
SPEAKER_02: they're terrified of screwing up.
20:15
They're so scared that they're going to put themselves out
20:18
there and they're not
20:19
SPEAKER_02: going to be well received.
20:20
They're so scared of that possibility that they're scared to
20:23
even try anything out.
20:26
There's this one lady who runs this psychological lab and she
20:29
was just telling one
20:30
SPEAKER_02: of her friends in this interview,
20:32
that she can't get her students who are PhD candidates to
20:36
actually run their tests.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: They're kind of stuck in this pattern of like,
20:40
SPEAKER_02: oh,
20:40
SPEAKER_02: I'll just stay in school,
20:41
SPEAKER_02: I'll just figure things out,
20:43
SPEAKER_02: and then when I have a good idea,
20:44
SPEAKER_02: then I'll start testing stuff,
20:45
SPEAKER_02: which is not how it works in really any field.
20:49
Even as you're describing,
20:50
being a pastor,
20:50
you can't just have that mindset of,
20:53
SPEAKER_02: oh,
20:53
SPEAKER_02: I'll just learn more and more about being a pastor,
20:55
SPEAKER_02: but I'm never actually going to try to put that into practice.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: I'm never going to sit in a board meeting.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: I'm never going to actually do it.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: But the saddest part about this,
21:04
SPEAKER_02: though,
21:04
is that it's the very fact that you try to do these things that
21:08
actually gives you
21:09
SPEAKER_02: an ability to do them well,
21:11
SPEAKER_02: like most fields in general,
21:13
SPEAKER_02: especially writing,
21:14
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:14
SPEAKER_02: writing is something that,
21:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
21:16
SPEAKER_02: both you and I do this a ton,
21:18
SPEAKER_02: but I mean,
21:19
the best way to learn is to just try and fail over and over and
21:23
over again,
21:24
SPEAKER_02: and then analyze,
21:25
SPEAKER_02: analyze what you did wrong and then try to do better the next time.
21:28
There's even just been some research about that too where if
21:32
you're comparing
21:33
students who get an MFA in creative writing compared to
21:37
students who just try their
21:38
SPEAKER_02: best to do writing on their own,
21:40
the ones who tried their best to do writing on their own while
21:43
getting feedback at
21:44
SPEAKER_02: the same time,
21:45
SPEAKER_02: you need feedback.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: So regardless of where you're at,
21:48
you can't just sit in a vacuum and do whatever discipline that
21:51
you're doing and
21:51
SPEAKER_02: hope for the best results.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: You need people to evaluate it for you.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: you don't need, like, the writing classes to become exceptional.
21:59
SPEAKER_02: Like,
21:59
SPEAKER_02: what you need more than the writing classes is just to try,
22:02
SPEAKER_02: put your stuff out there,
22:03
SPEAKER_02: fail,
22:04
SPEAKER_02: and then fail better the next time,
22:06
SPEAKER_02: essentially.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
22:08
SPEAKER_02: and so just bringing this back around to what you're saying is,
22:10
SPEAKER_02: like,
22:11
SPEAKER_02: I see so many kids who are just terrified of doing pastoral,
22:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
22:17
SPEAKER_02: giving a sermon in front of a big church or something like that,
22:20
SPEAKER_02: or,
22:21
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:21
SPEAKER_02: doing anything...
22:23
That might involve just putting themselves out there in a way
22:25
that is not well
22:26
SPEAKER_02: received or something along those lines.
22:28
SPEAKER_02: I just see so much fear in that area.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: And so,
22:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
22:33
SPEAKER_02: I would assume that has to be part of,
22:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:35
what's going on with just less and less people wanting to step
22:38
up in younger age
22:39
SPEAKER_02: brackets toward these pastoral positions.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: And so to not to like Jesus juke this,
22:46
SPEAKER_01: but like,
22:47
so how would you say that like the gospel can help both like a
22:52
person who's
22:53
SPEAKER_01: interested in writing or a person who's interested in ministry?
22:57
SPEAKER_01: How can you, what would you say to them?
22:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, here's the reason why you should just try.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: Here's the reason why you should just pursue this endeavor.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, and I want to talk about this too, because you mentioned it.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: Like,
23:08
SPEAKER_01: here's why you should be ambitious about this thing.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: Like in a godly way, a godly ambition.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: Like what would you say to that person?
23:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh, man.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: Well, so I was just having my hermeneutic students read.
23:19
It's one of my favorite passages in the whole Bible,
23:20
but Philippians 3,
23:22
1 through 11.
23:23
And in it,
23:24
Paul is addressing basically these critics in Philippi at this
23:28
time.
23:29
SPEAKER_02: And he was saying,
23:31
you gather from the context that there's these critics who are
23:34
basically bragging
23:35
SPEAKER_02: about their abilities,
23:36
SPEAKER_02: you know,
23:36
SPEAKER_02: bragging about the things that they've been able to do.
23:39
SPEAKER_02: So they might brag,
23:40
SPEAKER_02: for example,
23:40
that they come from a good lineage or they were born to a good
23:42
family or they're
23:43
SPEAKER_02: from like an aristocratic location.
23:46
Or they might even be bragging that they're great public
23:48
speakers or they're great
23:49
SPEAKER_02: at doing good works or anything along those lines.
23:52
SPEAKER_02: So that seems like the context that Paul is working at.
23:55
And then he goes in this just amazing turn of phrase,
23:59
but he's like,
24:00
I am a Hebrew of Hebrews.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: I'm from the tribe of Benjamin.
24:04
SPEAKER_02: I was born on the sixth day, I think it was.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to remember just off the top of my head.
24:10
And then those first three things that he lists there are what
24:14
are called ascribed honors.
24:17
These are like your status points that are essentially like
24:20
born into you.
24:20
So if you're a prince or a king,
24:23
that's an ascribed honor because you were just born into that.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: It's not something that you did on your own.
24:27
ability but then after he lists his ascribed honors he goes
24:30
into his achieved or
24:32
acquired honors which are basically like I was the most zealous
24:36
according to the
24:37
law I was a Pharisee among the Pharisees which you know these
24:40
are the that's the
24:41
religious group that is just so radical to every single law and
24:44
so he's saying like
24:45
SPEAKER_02: I'm the Pharisee of the Pharisees I was
24:47
SPEAKER_02: blameless according to the law.
24:49
SPEAKER_02: And so that's where he lists his ascribed,
24:51
SPEAKER_02: or that's where,
24:52
SPEAKER_02: sorry,
24:52
SPEAKER_02: that's where he lists his acquired honors.
24:54
SPEAKER_02: And then he goes from that,
24:57
SPEAKER_02: you know,
24:57
keeping in mind that he's calling out this audience who's most
25:00
likely been bragging
25:02
SPEAKER_02: about these things.
25:02
SPEAKER_02: And he says,
25:04
SPEAKER_02: all of those things are rubbish,
25:06
SPEAKER_02: or the word for that is skubalon,
25:07
SPEAKER_02: which,
25:08
SPEAKER_02: you know,
25:08
SPEAKER_02: as you know,
25:08
SPEAKER_02: in the Greek,
25:09
SPEAKER_02: it stands for excrement,
25:11
SPEAKER_02: things like,
25:11
SPEAKER_02: so he's saying all of these things that you're bragging about,
25:14
SPEAKER_02: everything that you've acquired,
25:15
SPEAKER_02: all of these ascribed honors,
25:17
SPEAKER_02: All of that is absolutely nothing in comparison to knowing Christ.
25:22
SPEAKER_02: And so he says, whatever gain I had, as in whatever...
25:25
SPEAKER_02: gain according to your standards or metrics of honor status or ability is
25:30
SPEAKER_02: absolutely nothing in comparison to knowing Christ.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: All I want to do is to be found and to be known in him.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: And to me, that gives me so much confidence just in everything that I do.
25:43
SPEAKER_02: Just thinking about, it does not matter if I achieve more honors in this.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: It does not matter if I
25:49
SPEAKER_02: give a great sermon and it goes well.
25:50
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter if I teach a class and it goes well,
25:52
SPEAKER_02: or I put out an article and it performs well.
25:54
SPEAKER_02: That actually does not matter at all.
25:57
SPEAKER_02: The only thing that actually matters is being found and known in Christ.
26:00
And I feel like that gives you so much freedom just to be able
26:03
to say,
26:03
I am trying my best.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: I am putting my best foot forward.
26:06
SPEAKER_02: And like you were saying, in regards to Paul and Timothy's relationship,
26:11
it's probably pretty likely that Timothy was making some dumb
26:15
mistakes here and
26:15
SPEAKER_02: there just because he was young.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: There's just,
26:18
SPEAKER_02: we don't,
26:19
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
26:19
SPEAKER_02: we don't have the,
26:20
SPEAKER_02: we don't have the records,
26:20
but we can probably just make a good estimate that he was
26:23
making some mistakes.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: He probably, he might've had some hubris here and there.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: He might've had some short sightedness or confusion.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what it was,
26:30
but the fact that it's just Paul giving him these opportunities
26:34
over and over
26:35
SPEAKER_02: knowing that he's probably,
26:36
SPEAKER_02: you know,
26:37
SPEAKER_02: going to mess up here and there is so amazing to think about that.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: It's just this trying,
26:42
SPEAKER_02: just going for it,
26:43
actually stepping out and doing these things and having the
26:46
confidence to do that
26:47
SPEAKER_02: as well.
26:48
So I would actually,
26:49
like you were saying,
26:50
you want to know more about the relationship.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: I would be so curious about how Paul approached Timothy,
26:57
SPEAKER_02: even if Timothy did mess up or do something wrong.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: What did that kind of encouragement look like?
27:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh man, that is a really good, I would love to know that too.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: And I think, I think you're so right.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: That, that passage is like spot on for that.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: The gospel of grace gives us a lot of latitude to mess up.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't mean we go out and try and mess up.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: It just means when you do it,
27:19
SPEAKER_01: cause this is not an if reality,
27:21
SPEAKER_01: this is a when reality,
27:22
SPEAKER_01: like when,
27:23
SPEAKER_01: when that happens.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of latitude.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of mercy.
27:26
There's a lot of grace in this gospel that allows for mess ups
27:30
and both big and
27:31
SPEAKER_01: small and coming alongside people is,
27:35
SPEAKER_01: I think,
27:36
SPEAKER_01: part of the gig of what it means to be like the family of God,
27:39
SPEAKER_01: to be the church is.
27:42
It's not like sort of looking down our nose at people who
27:46
haven't quite figured it
27:46
SPEAKER_01: out yet,
27:47
SPEAKER_01: but actually being like,
27:48
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
27:49
SPEAKER_01: okay,
27:49
SPEAKER_01: look at how you didn't quite meet the mark here,
27:51
SPEAKER_01: but let's get back up and keep pressing,
27:54
SPEAKER_01: to use Philippians 3,
27:56
SPEAKER_01: keep pressing towards the mark,
27:58
SPEAKER_01: the prize of the upward call of God.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Like that's the ambition.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: And, man, I wish so badly that sometimes we could just all get it.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: We don't all, all get it, but then that's fine.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: I think another helpful passage that has really just stuck out to me,
28:15
SPEAKER_01: and I don't know if we've talked about this,
28:17
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
28:17
SPEAKER_01: but...
28:18
I know I've talked about it with other people,
28:20
but I've preached about it and I've studied it.
28:22
And I love that scene in Acts chapter 16 where Paul and
28:26
Barnabas have this like
28:28
SPEAKER_01: massive falling out.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: And it's over.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: I think what's so fascinating,
28:33
SPEAKER_01: I think it kind of fits,
28:34
SPEAKER_01: is it's over what you find out to be Barnabas's nephew,
28:38
SPEAKER_01: John Mark.
28:39
You know,
28:40
he leaves the first missionary journey in Acts chapters 13 and
28:44
14.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: He just – he often leaves.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: He goes AWOL.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: And so when they get back to Antioch,
28:48
SPEAKER_01: Paul's like,
28:49
SPEAKER_01: no,
28:50
SPEAKER_01: we cannot bring him with us on this next journey.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: And Barnabas is like, no, we should.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: And they have this big falling out.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: And I've often said to people, you know, when I've preached that, like –
29:00
SPEAKER_01: our immediate reaction is who was right?
29:02
SPEAKER_01: Was Paul right?
29:03
SPEAKER_01: Or was Barnabas right?
29:04
SPEAKER_01: Like,
29:05
SPEAKER_01: should they have brought him with him or,
29:07
SPEAKER_01: and the point is like,
29:08
SPEAKER_01: and I've explained to people,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: and this is the hard part to realize they both were right.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: Um,
29:13
and it's actually a good thing that they kind of went their
29:15
separate ways because
29:17
SPEAKER_01: then we get the book of Galatians.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: Um,
29:19
SPEAKER_01: and then we don't know what really happens with Barnabas,
29:21
SPEAKER_01: but like,
29:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:22
SPEAKER_01: church history says he,
29:24
SPEAKER_01: I think he went to Crete or,
29:25
SPEAKER_01: um,
29:26
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, he went somewhere in the Mediterranean.
29:29
But regardless,
29:31
it's fascinating to me because you can understand Barnabas'
29:35
point.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: This young guy,
29:37
SPEAKER_01: he messed up,
29:37
but we need to bring him with us because that's going to be how
29:42
he learns.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: You can sense Barnabas' heart.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: This is why he's called the encourager.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: This is why he kind of has that reputation, that nickname.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: You can kind of sense that.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: That's why I like that part of...
29:54
of,
29:55
of Barnabas's legacy is that he was adamant that John Mark go
30:00
with him.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, because this is how young people learn.
30:03
And I think that that is what I wish,
30:05
and this is not to like denigrate Paul.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: Paul obviously had his own reasons that we can go to that,
30:09
SPEAKER_01: but it's,
30:11
SPEAKER_01: it's just to say that like,
30:12
SPEAKER_01: we're both right.
30:12
And I think that,
30:13
that Barnabas attitude is what I wish that like we could all
30:17
have,
30:18
uh,
30:18
SPEAKER_01: like for students,
30:19
SPEAKER_01: for young people in ministry,
30:21
SPEAKER_01: like go out,
30:24
SPEAKER_01: press towards the,
30:25
SPEAKER_01: the,
30:25
SPEAKER_01: the upper call of God,
30:26
SPEAKER_01: and maybe you're going to fail,
30:27
SPEAKER_01: but guess what?
30:28
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of latitude in the gospel for failures and we can,
30:31
SPEAKER_01: we can kind of like keep prodding you along as you go.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: So anyways, that's, yeah.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: No, that's a great one.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: No, I love that one.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: That's actually an exceptional one.
30:41
I would never have thought of that,
30:42
but that actually makes so much sense.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: That's one of my favorite scenes.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: It's just so... Well, it's so pregnant with such rich themes.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: We can go into what you're teaching about, which would be fun.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: Because in Acts 15... So we'll just...
31:00
SPEAKER_01: This is how I've interpreted Paul's reasoning,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: not to just beat a dead horse,
31:04
SPEAKER_01: but,
31:04
SPEAKER_01: like,
31:05
SPEAKER_01: I think Paul,
31:06
SPEAKER_01: if you look at Acts 15,
31:07
SPEAKER_01: like,
31:08
SPEAKER_01: what's right before that?
31:08
SPEAKER_01: It's the Jerusalem Council,
31:11
SPEAKER_01: which is talking about justification,
31:13
SPEAKER_01: how are sinners justified,
31:15
SPEAKER_01: especially those who are outside the covenant community,
31:17
SPEAKER_01: right?
31:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, Gentiles, how are they justified?
31:19
SPEAKER_01: And they come down to the fact, like,
31:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not keeping the laws of Judaism.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: It's faith.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: That's how they're justified.
31:26
And that's when,
31:28
like,
31:28
right after—I think Paul's reasoning was,
31:31
like,
31:31
this is so important.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: Like,
31:33
SPEAKER_01: and if you do the—how I understand the timeline is,
31:36
SPEAKER_01: like,
31:37
SPEAKER_01: right before the Jerusalem Council in,
31:38
SPEAKER_01: like,
31:39
SPEAKER_01: 48,
31:39
SPEAKER_01: you have Paul writing Galatians.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: So, like, that's like a letter that precedes Galatians.
31:45
Jerusalem council and then you know Paul's calling out Peter
31:48
because Peter's
31:48
messing up and he's like you know I'm not going to eat with
31:51
Gentiles now and Paul's
31:52
like calling them out to his face and he's like what are you
31:54
doing you're screwing
31:55
SPEAKER_01: with the gospel and I think Paul's reasoning for not taking John Mark
32:01
SPEAKER_01: Is this was such an important moment for the church.
32:04
He doesn't want distractions like I cannot be worried about
32:09
John Mark going AWOL
32:10
again when we are going to go back to like because they go back
32:14
to the same
32:14
SPEAKER_01: churches.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: In Acts 16,
32:16
SPEAKER_01: they go back to the same churches from the first missionary journey,
32:20
SPEAKER_01: and they're reconfirming the apostles' doctrine.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: So they're re-preaching the gospel of justification by faith,
32:26
and it's almost like he wants to get rid of the whole Judaizing
32:31
incursion,
32:33
SPEAKER_01: and he wants to focus on that.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: So you can understand Paul's sentiment.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: And you can also understand Barnabas' sentiment.
32:40
And I think that that's what's so helpful about that scene is
32:42
that I think they're both right.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, I'll stop preaching to you.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: No, dude, that is so good.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: Actually, I love that a lot.
32:50
SPEAKER_02: I've never thought about that passage in that way, but it's amazing.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: So you're teaching this semester on – well, a bunch of stuff.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: You were telling me off air,
33:00
SPEAKER_01: but one of those ones that really stuck out to me is church history,
33:04
SPEAKER_01: Reformation stuff.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: Talk about that.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: What is something that you're hoping that you can –
33:12
Have your students sort of grasp from that era of history that
33:15
maybe they weren't
33:16
expecting or maybe that you haven't really that you weren't
33:20
expecting at first as
33:21
SPEAKER_01: you've like really digested that era of church history.
33:25
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, that's a great question.
33:26
So every year I go through just basic like textbooks about
33:30
church history,
33:31
SPEAKER_02: just trying to refresh myself.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: But then I'll try to add a few more.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: to try to get a little bit more of a background in it.
33:37
And so this is the first time I've ever gone through this book
33:39
called Reformation
33:40
SPEAKER_02: as Renewal by Matthew Barrett.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: It is – have you heard this one?
33:46
SPEAKER_01: I haven't read the book, but I've read bits of it.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: And I had a class with Barrett at Midwestern.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so cool.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: Oh, my gosh.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: He is amazingly intelligent.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: So it's like a 900-page book or something, and it is so dense.
34:00
SPEAKER_02: It is insanely –
34:02
SPEAKER_02: Like I don't, I don't many of the books I've seen.
34:04
I'm like,
34:05
this is might be one of the best research books that I've even
34:08
come across.
34:09
SPEAKER_02: And so his take is so,
34:12
SPEAKER_02: so fascinating,
34:13
but it's one that I'm really trying to drill into my students
34:16
this semester.
34:17
But this idea that he's getting at is this idea of like,
34:20
it's called a Protestant Catholic city.
34:23
SPEAKER_02: So Catholic as meaning universality.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: So, uh, you know, if you look at the early creeds, like Nicene creed,
34:31
SPEAKER_02: It talks about the one holy Catholic church,
34:33
SPEAKER_02: not meaning as in the Roman Catholic sect of Christianity,
34:36
SPEAKER_02: but just talking about as in one universal church,
34:39
SPEAKER_02: right?
34:40
And so when Matthew Barrett is writing this book called
34:44
Reformation as Renewal,
34:45
he's tackling this idea that Protestantism was actually a break
34:49
from Catholicity.
34:52
Because when you're reading not even just church history books,
34:56
but history books in general –
34:58
SPEAKER_02: A lot of what it describes the Reformation as is this total – this break,
35:03
this almost like apostasy from the Catholic Church that starts
35:07
its own branch.
35:08
But when you actually read what's – even like the letters that
35:12
Calvin or Melanchthon –
35:15
We're sending back and forth with Catholic criticizers and
35:20
things along those lines.
35:21
SPEAKER_02: They explicitly said, we're not breaking with the church at all.
35:25
We're just trying to live in direct continuity with the very
35:28
beginning of the church.
35:30
There's even times when John Calvin,
35:32
in some of his letters,
35:33
says directly,
35:35
SPEAKER_02: I am writing and I am trying to relive the Catholic Church.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: I am trying to pursue Catholicity,
35:44
which is just so interesting to think about that he would ever
35:46
put that so bluntly.
35:48
But when you look at all the early reformers,
35:50
what they were doing was not –
35:52
SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to, uh, come up with this like ragtag rebellion.
35:58
Uh,
35:58
you know,
35:58
I mean,
35:59
there were some radical reformers that did stuff like that.
36:01
SPEAKER_02: That's for sure.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: But,
36:02
SPEAKER_02: uh,
36:03
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
36:03
SPEAKER_02: I,
36:03
SPEAKER_02: the main ones,
36:04
SPEAKER_02: you know,
36:04
SPEAKER_02: like the Luther's,
36:05
SPEAKER_02: the Calvin's,
36:06
SPEAKER_02: they,
36:06
SPEAKER_02: they were not trying to create like a,
36:08
SPEAKER_02: uh,
36:09
SPEAKER_02: an anti Catholic church kind of thing.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: Uh,
36:13
SPEAKER_02: As Barrett's describing it in his book,
36:15
SPEAKER_02: he says that when Luther himself did not start the Reformation's church,
36:22
SPEAKER_02: he started the church because the Pope excommunicated him,
36:25
SPEAKER_02: and that's the only reason that that happens.
36:28
It wasn't because he was like,
36:29
I want to start a separate church totally away from this
36:34
church.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: He was trying desperately to get people to come along with him.
36:39
SPEAKER_02: I mean, he fought for it for years.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: He was really trying desperately.
36:43
SPEAKER_02: And so,
36:43
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
36:44
one of the just the most amazing things about this book that
36:47
I've been really
36:48
trying to teach my students is just this idea that like
36:50
Protestantism is not –
36:51
SPEAKER_02: necessarily this like bad boy,
36:53
SPEAKER_02: renegade,
36:54
SPEAKER_02: disrespecting authority,
36:56
SPEAKER_02: which is a lot of what it gets like depicted of as in popular culture.
36:59
SPEAKER_02: And if you had even asked me a couple of,
37:01
SPEAKER_02: if you'd even asked me a couple of years ago,
37:02
SPEAKER_02: I would have been,
37:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
37:03
SPEAKER_02: kind of thrown it off.
37:04
SPEAKER_02: If you caught me off guard,
37:05
SPEAKER_02: I've been like,
37:05
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
37:06
SPEAKER_02: Protestants,
37:06
SPEAKER_02: you know,
37:07
SPEAKER_02: they're kind of anti-authority.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: It's just been in their DNA.
37:10
SPEAKER_02: Well, they were not anti-authority.
37:11
SPEAKER_02: They were very respectful about the way that they did it.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: But because,
37:14
SPEAKER_02: you know,
37:15
SPEAKER_02: Luther got excommunicated,
37:16
SPEAKER_02: it sort of ushered in a forceful start to a reformation,
37:21
SPEAKER_02: to a new branch of the church.
37:23
SPEAKER_02: And so they...
37:25
SPEAKER_02: Just one of the things that's so wonderful about the Reformation,
37:28
SPEAKER_02: especially the early roots of it,
37:30
SPEAKER_02: that we've really just forgotten.
37:32
SPEAKER_02: I want more people to read this book or even Gavin Ortlund.
37:36
He's doing a lot of wonderful apologetics about even just
37:39
Protestantism in general.
37:40
SPEAKER_02: So he's trying to fight for this idea as well.
37:43
SPEAKER_02: So I want more people to kind of...
37:45
see see this is like the protestants were not anti i mean they
37:49
were antagonistic in
37:50
some sense of the word but they were not deliberately trying to
37:54
hurt uh the church
37:55
or you know deliberately try to set up their own sect they were
37:59
looking at what the
38:00
SPEAKER_02: early apostles did
38:01
SPEAKER_02: And they were trying to live in direct continuity with that.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: So they were trying to pursue a true universal church,
38:07
SPEAKER_02: the true universal church that had been there since the very beginning.
38:10
SPEAKER_02: They were trying to revive it.
38:11
And so one of the most beautiful thoughts of the whole book is
38:14
just this idea that
38:16
SPEAKER_02: the Reformation wasn't a break.
38:17
SPEAKER_02: It was a revival.
38:19
SPEAKER_02: It was a renewal of what was there originally.
38:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: Sorry if there's any Catholic listeners.
38:25
I feel like we probably lost them all at this point,
38:28
but you are so loved.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: You are still loved.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: But I love that.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: I love what you're talking about.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: I love that moment.
38:36
I've often thought about that,
38:38
and I think that's so helpful for understanding that.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: the reformation itself.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like you're saying this radical rebellion at its heart.
38:46
SPEAKER_01: It was, it was actually this love of the church.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: That's what, like, I love the image.
38:53
Cause I think that the thing that people,
38:56
I think sometimes get,
38:57
it gets lost in the shuffle.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's like,
39:00
it was the reformers and they just loved this idea of grace and
39:02
they're just
39:03
SPEAKER_01: preaching it.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: Yes,
39:04
but actually what's underneath that is that the reformers were
39:08
actually just very
39:10
SPEAKER_01: staunchly committed to God's word.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: They were committed to the creeds,
39:15
SPEAKER_01: of course,
39:15
SPEAKER_01: but they were like,
39:17
SPEAKER_01: this is where the whole idea of solo secretura comes out of.
39:20
SPEAKER_01: No, this is what we're going to base it on.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: And I think the thing that...
39:26
that always hits me is that the reformation is born out of this
39:30
revival of biblical literacy.
39:32
Like why,
39:33
why is,
39:34
why is Luther this like figure that he is for the reformation?
39:39
SPEAKER_01: Well,
39:39
it's because he was a monk who had access to reading the
39:42
scriptures in the Vatican
39:43
SPEAKER_01: and he's reading them.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: And as he's reading them,
39:46
he's finding all of the ways that the Roman curia and what he's
39:51
reading are
39:51
SPEAKER_01: diverging.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: And so now he's suddenly like, I don't know what to do with this.
39:56
And so like what's – we always think of like the Reformation
40:00
starting in 1517.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: Sure, maybe.
40:02
And we have that image of him nailing this thing to the door,
40:06
maybe or maybe not.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: But like what's interesting to note is like that was just a normal thing.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: It was like putting stuff on a bulletin board.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: I have 95 questions about how –
40:17
SPEAKER_01: How my church leaders are justifying this when based on what I'm reading,
40:24
SPEAKER_01: it's like a normal thing in the academic world back then.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: The Reformation maybe didn't even start proper,
40:34
SPEAKER_01: if you want to say that way,
40:35
SPEAKER_01: until the Diet of Worms a couple years later when finally—
40:39
SPEAKER_01: What you're talking about, he's excommunicated.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of like they shoved him into that.
40:46
Because they're like,
40:48
you've got to recant what you're preaching,
40:50
what you're writing.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: And Luther's like, no, this is the word of God.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: Those awesome words.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: My conscience is captive to the word of God.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not going to recant that.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: And that's what's so fascinating about that era of history.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: Because it comes back.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: And this is why...
41:09
SPEAKER_01: Even in my context, I am so passionate about people, folks in churches.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: One of my passions is trying to elevate biblical literacy.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: What does the Bible actually say?
41:24
SPEAKER_01: And what is it for?
41:25
SPEAKER_01: What is the Bible actually for?
41:26
SPEAKER_01: What is it supposed to tell you?
41:27
SPEAKER_01: What's its message?
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Why do we have...
41:30
SPEAKER_01: the books that we have?
41:31
SPEAKER_01: Why don't we have the Apocrypha?
41:33
SPEAKER_01: Why did we throw those out?
41:35
SPEAKER_01: Why don't we consider those canon?
41:37
And why do we have certain histories versus not,
41:41
and why do we have the canon laid out as we do?
41:45
SPEAKER_01: Well, there's a reason for that.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, the Bible is not a historical book, even though it has history.
41:49
The Bible's not an ethical book,
41:50
even though it teaches ethics,
41:52
so on and so forth.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: The Bible's a book of revelation, and it's meant to reveal...
41:57
SPEAKER_01: not things to you.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: It's meant to reveal a person to you.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, this is, this is what it's all for.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: And so,
42:03
SPEAKER_01: and you can see all of the reformers,
42:06
SPEAKER_01: like Calvin Luther,
42:07
SPEAKER_01: Zwingli,
42:08
SPEAKER_01: all these other guys,
42:09
SPEAKER_01: they're,
42:10
SPEAKER_01: that's what they're realizing is like,
42:12
SPEAKER_01: this is all,
42:13
SPEAKER_01: it all comes back to,
42:14
SPEAKER_01: to Christ.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: And so that biblical literacy is what drove them,
42:19
SPEAKER_01: unfortunately to break,
42:20
SPEAKER_01: you could say,
42:21
SPEAKER_01: because then that leads,
42:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:23
SPEAKER_01: I've talked about those other people,
42:24
SPEAKER_01: like,
42:26
What's so fascinating is the era after the Reformation and the
42:30
era of that
42:31
Protestantism is that era of the Enlightenment when things just
42:36
ballooned.
42:36
And that's when you have all of those different denominations
42:39
that are born out of
42:39
SPEAKER_01: that,
42:40
SPEAKER_01: which aren't always a good thing.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: And that's where some of our Catholic friends would be like,
42:44
SPEAKER_01: see,
42:45
SPEAKER_01: you broke up the church,
42:45
SPEAKER_01: you ruined it.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: Well...
42:48
SPEAKER_01: Some people ruined it maybe.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: But it's because Calvin and Luther couldn't agree on communion.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: But it's just fascinating to me.
42:56
I think the thing that I would always want to get across to
42:59
people is like the
43:00
SPEAKER_01: Reformation is about biblical literacy.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: I think it's also about the doctrine of assurance.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: I think that's it too.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: But anyways, I love that era.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: That era is so –
43:11
SPEAKER_01: I think it's so fascinating.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: I think it's so important.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a reason why Ortlund and Barrett and others,
43:16
SPEAKER_01: and I would even very humbly include myself in that.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: I love Reformation history, and I want to talk about it.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: I will happily talk about it all the time because it is so full.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to use this description again.
43:31
SPEAKER_01: It is so pregnant with things that we need to...
43:35
digest even now and I still think we're like it's kind of like
43:39
I consider it like
43:41
the ocean I think I looked it up the other day because my kids
43:43
were asking me like
43:45
how much of the ocean have we explored and according to Google
43:48
AI which whatever
43:51
SPEAKER_01: The Google AI search result, we've explored roughly 3% of the ocean.
43:57
There's like 80-something percent of the ocean floor that we
44:01
haven't even mapped.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: That's kind of like Reformation history to me.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: It's so deep.
44:06
We haven't understood all of the tendrils and ways in which it
44:10
has affected Earth.
44:11
history after it,
44:14
that I think that's why it's relevant now,
44:16
even 500 odd years later.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: I think that's why we can study it and find so much to benefit from it.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
44:23
SPEAKER_02: and just even preparing for this,
44:26
trying to give them a roadmap to the Reformation and things
44:30
that were happening,
44:31
there was just so much in the water that was just kind of been
44:34
brewing for hundreds
44:35
SPEAKER_02: of years before that.
44:36
You had the Brethren of Common Life and Jan Hus and stuff along
44:40
those lines.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I'm saying those names right,
44:43
SPEAKER_02: but it's an extremely,
44:45
extremely misunderstood point in history that you'll hear
44:50
misinterpreted from
44:52
SPEAKER_02: people from all varieties of thought.
44:55
SPEAKER_02: I mean, regardless of where you're at, like secular, religious, you know.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: anywhere really.
44:59
SPEAKER_02: I just hear a lot of misunderstanding of it,
45:02
but there's so much beauty in it when you actually look at it
45:04
and see what was in
45:05
SPEAKER_02: there and kind of try to unearth it for what it was.
45:08
SPEAKER_02: And I mean,
45:09
SPEAKER_02: especially,
45:10
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
45:10
SPEAKER_02: if you read Calvin and Luther for what they were,
45:15
all the criticisms about cheap grace and things along those
45:18
lines just were not
45:20
SPEAKER_02: founded.
45:21
SPEAKER_02: That's just a horrible reading of...
45:24
SPEAKER_02: early Protestants that were just not,
45:27
SPEAKER_02: it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny,
45:28
SPEAKER_02: but it's just,
45:30
SPEAKER_02: you know,
45:30
SPEAKER_02: it's kind of like that idea where,
45:34
Charles Darwin,
45:36
he obviously came up with Darwinism and things along those
45:39
lines.
45:40
SPEAKER_02: At first, it wasn't meant to be an atheistic stance or whatsoever.
45:44
He has a few critics for the first edition of his On the Origin
45:48
of Species.
45:49
SPEAKER_02: They were saying,
45:50
SPEAKER_02: this kind of makes you seem like you're going towards in a more atheistic
45:54
SPEAKER_02: direction.
45:55
SPEAKER_02: Then in the preface of the second edition of On the Origin of Species,
45:58
SPEAKER_02: he wrote,
45:59
SPEAKER_02: and all this is made possible by the creator.
46:02
And what's so interesting about that is he was not a fiery
46:06
atheist that was trying
46:08
to convince everybody that God wasn't real and that Genesis is
46:12
completely false.
46:13
SPEAKER_02: That was never his aim.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: But the way that the whole culture received it...
46:18
over the next course the next few hundred years like what you
46:20
would call like
46:21
reception history uh the way that the culture received charles
46:24
darwin was that oh
46:26
he's this huge atheist that was trying to put you know he was
46:29
trying to be like
46:29
frederick nisha and say god is dead here's the proof look at
46:32
all this science that
46:33
was never isn't that was never his intention you know but the
46:36
fact that like people
46:37
thought that it's now just swimming in the water so much that's
46:41
it's just a natural
46:42
assumption and so i would say the same thing about you know the
46:44
reformation is like
46:46
The misunderstandings of it have almost become more prominent
46:49
than what they were
46:50
SPEAKER_02: actually standing for.
46:51
SPEAKER_02: And so when we think about that,
46:53
it's like the reception history of the Reformation is what
46:58
gives it mainly the bad
46:59
SPEAKER_02: rap.
47:00
And obviously you had some of the radical reformers and stuff
47:03
not doing some great
47:04
SPEAKER_02: things here and there.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: But in general,
47:06
SPEAKER_02: when you're looking at just like the initial movement,
47:08
what was going on in the hearts of those guys or what's what it
47:11
seems like was
47:12
SPEAKER_02: going on with the hearts of those guys,
47:13
SPEAKER_02: there was just a lot of beauty.
47:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
47:15
SPEAKER_01: I think trying to understand,
47:19
SPEAKER_01: like,
47:20
SPEAKER_01: even just,
47:21
SPEAKER_01: like,
47:21
the politics of that era just makes that such a fascinating era
47:25
of history.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: Like, not even if you're a theologian, just from a historical standpoint.
47:30
SPEAKER_01: It is such a fascinating era with the blend of the political,
47:35
SPEAKER_01: the theological,
47:37
SPEAKER_01: and so many different contexts,
47:38
SPEAKER_01: and the ways in which that influenced all of the decisions,
47:42
SPEAKER_01: and these figures who were just,
47:43
SPEAKER_01: like...
47:44
rediscovering like Augustinism and they were really
47:48
rediscovering some of those
47:49
like either patristic theologians or writers and anyways it's
47:53
oh man it's such a
47:54
fascinating era and so I think it can be it can be reduced it
47:58
can be you know
48:00
flattened into like what kind of what you're talking about and
48:03
I think that that's
48:04
why it's so important like I'm so happy to hear that you're
48:07
teaching that but like
48:07
SPEAKER_01: it's that's why I think it's so important to like
48:10
investigate and research it because it is way deeper than just
48:13
like this flat like
48:15
these guys were just upset with the church and blah blah blah
48:18
but and they wanted
48:19
to like you know go out and drink beer but no it was it was it
48:22
was way deeper than
48:23
that and uh i think it's way more uh at least for me it's
48:27
convicting especially
48:28
like reading luther like you know i love reading luther and
48:32
that i always go back
48:33
SPEAKER_01: to that scene again like at verms when he's at that diet and he's at that
48:38
he's before all of these people who had his life in his hands
48:41
and he's like no i'm
48:43
i'm convinced like i want to have like that's to me is like an
48:46
ambition for me is
48:47
like i want that level of conviction that like we were talking
48:53
about status
48:53
perfectionism look at that moment like all of that status
48:56
perfectionism for him is
48:58
SPEAKER_01: like thrown out the window and he's like
49:01
he's like no i'm i'm convinced this is true and like you like
49:06
thinking about it
49:07
from luther's perspective because some people are like you know
49:10
he almost recanted
49:12
and yeah like he took a couple days before he gave his answer
49:16
and it's like well
49:17
duh like look at look at what he's gonna have to like throw
49:20
away in the process and
49:22
SPEAKER_01: look at what he's look at what he's wrestling with and then he's like
49:25
yeah no i'm convinced i'm convinced that this is true and you
49:29
know um i can't
49:30
recant i'm not going to and like whether he said here i stand
49:34
or not like we can
49:35
just make up that legend that he did and yeah he said here i
49:38
stand i can do no
49:39
other that's that's what i think i want to be known for like no
49:45
matter what that's
49:45
why i want to that's why i want to aspire to so anyways we're
49:48
bringing both those
49:49
SPEAKER_01: conversations together yeah
49:51
SPEAKER_02: That's an amazing connection.
49:53
It seems like the Christians that just do the most for history
49:56
are the people who
49:58
learn how to love their enemies and then the people who can
50:00
actually just not go
50:02
SPEAKER_02: along with the social flow of the culture can actually just resist that.
50:07
SPEAKER_02: Even just framed in that way is absolutely insane.
50:11
Just trying to imagine you're at the Diet of Berms and you have
50:16
this decision coming up.
50:17
SPEAKER_02: You have a few days in between just
50:19
what is going on in your head in that meantime you know it
50:22
would be so so much
50:23
easier just to you know i don't know there's just so many times
50:28
in my life where i
50:28
feel like i'm like oh let me just take the easy way out like
50:31
you know i don't want
50:32
to get i don't want to get flack on social media or something
50:34
like that which is
50:36
just such a way way lamer thing to be concerned about but i
50:40
don't want to be
50:40
SPEAKER_01: ratioed on on on twitter yeah
50:43
yeah exactly so i mean that is just so laudable and that's just
50:47
something that i
50:48
feel like we need to we just need to kind of revive and stuff
50:53
and there's there was
50:54
this great i was working on a section of my dissertation this
50:57
morning so i had to
50:57
SPEAKER_02: read some of this stuff but there's this uh
50:59
I think he was either a church historian or a patristic scholar
51:05
or something,
51:05
SPEAKER_02: but his name is Gerd Thiessen,
51:06
and he was saying that the two meta-ethics or the
51:12
meta-foundations of the early
51:13
SPEAKER_02: Christian church were love.
51:17
SPEAKER_02: Number one is love, love of all kind of varieties.
51:19
The second one was a total disintegration of caring about your
51:26
social status,
51:27
essentially.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: Um,
51:28
SPEAKER_02: so just not,
51:29
SPEAKER_02: not caring at all about,
51:31
SPEAKER_02: you know,
51:31
whether you're going to be seen eating with somebody who's not
51:34
in your ethnicity,
51:34
SPEAKER_02: not caring at all,
51:36
whether you're going to be sitting next to somebody who's
51:38
poorer than you at this
51:40
SPEAKER_02: church meeting,
51:40
SPEAKER_02: you know,
51:41
SPEAKER_02: not even like the,
51:43
SPEAKER_02: just the stuff with the Holy kiss and stuff and the,
51:46
SPEAKER_02: If you guys are listening to Brad and Paul's letters,
51:48
SPEAKER_02: you'll know that he ends his letters with,
51:49
SPEAKER_02: greet one another with a holy kiss,
51:51
SPEAKER_02: which seems odd to us.
51:52
SPEAKER_02: And it was definitely weird back then.
51:54
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't super normal.
51:56
But what that was doing was it was sort of leveling the playing
52:00
field between everybody.
52:02
So every time somebody would come to one of their gatherings,
52:04
which they...
52:05
SPEAKER_02: would call like a love,
52:07
SPEAKER_02: love parties or love feasts,
52:09
SPEAKER_02: they would actually just greet one each other,
52:12
SPEAKER_02: greet one another with a kiss in the mouth.
52:13
And that's something that you would typically only do amongst
52:16
equals,
52:16
right?
52:17
SPEAKER_02: So that's only something that you would,
52:18
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:19
SPEAKER_02: initiate with somebody who's at your same social standard,
52:21
SPEAKER_02: like,
52:22
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:23
SPEAKER_02: between a governor and another governor or something like that.
52:26
SPEAKER_02: But for somebody of high prominence, like you had a lot of
52:30
early christians who are very rich and prominent like you had
52:32
erasmus and stuff
52:33
like that who has an interesting history but for somebody who's
52:38
super rich and
52:38
powerful just to actually greet somebody who's like a peasant
52:41
on the mouth with a
52:42
kiss when they enter the gathering is like such an equalizer
52:47
it's just crazy to
52:48
SPEAKER_02: think about and so this anyways the scholar was just saying that um
52:53
the early church took that so seriously just this idea that we
52:57
will not be
52:57
concerned with what other people think about us we will do what
53:02
we think is right
53:03
in the eyes of christ and we will live that way like it was
53:06
just so so blatant and
53:08
like almost everything they did they were like we are not going
53:11
to be concerned
53:12
SPEAKER_02: about social pressure we're going just to live the way of christ
53:17
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
53:18
And that's a good segue into one of the things I want to talk
53:21
to you about because
53:21
SPEAKER_01: you've written a couple pieces,
53:23
SPEAKER_01: maybe two,
53:25
SPEAKER_01: but you've written a couple pieces on the Beatitudes,
53:28
SPEAKER_01: which I've just really enjoyed.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: And hopefully people have enjoyed those too.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to link to them.
53:33
But how have – if you can – I'm just realizing we've talked for
53:38
almost an hour and
53:39
SPEAKER_01: haven't gotten anything that I want to talk to you about,
53:41
SPEAKER_01: but we'll see what happens.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: That's been fun.
53:44
SPEAKER_01: Can you – if you can,
53:45
SPEAKER_01: kind of summarize what you're wanting to do with those Beatitudes pieces,
53:49
SPEAKER_01: but then also how have – as you've studied,
53:52
SPEAKER_01: researched,
53:52
read – because I know your process is pretty involved when you
53:55
put out an essay.
53:57
SPEAKER_01: What –
53:58
SPEAKER_01: How have – if you study the Beatitudes,
54:01
SPEAKER_01: how has that kind of shaped,
54:04
SPEAKER_01: informed even your own personal Christian walk,
54:09
SPEAKER_01: so to speak?
54:11
SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
54:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so –
54:14
I can't recite it right now because I think it's like a
54:16
2,000-word essay.
54:19
SPEAKER_01: Just repeat all that, Griffin.
54:20
SPEAKER_02: I can't just pull it out of my head, unfortunately.
54:22
SPEAKER_02: I wish I could.
54:23
But anyways,
54:23
so the Beatitudes are an extremely interesting piece of
54:27
literature.
54:27
It's one of the most written about pieces of literature in all
54:30
of human history
54:30
SPEAKER_02: because it starts off the Sermon on the Mount,
54:33
SPEAKER_02: which the Sermon on the Mount in general is like
54:35
Those three chapters have been written about by more people
54:38
than anybody else since time began.
54:41
SPEAKER_02: It's such a rich collection of teachings,
54:44
SPEAKER_02: and it started with the Beatitudes,
54:46
SPEAKER_02: which comes from the Latin word beatitudino,
54:48
SPEAKER_02: which just means happiness.
54:49
And so the word that Jesus actually uses in his Sermon on the
54:53
Mount to start off
54:56
SPEAKER_02: the Beatitudes is makarios,
54:58
SPEAKER_02: which is essentially just meaning a Greek word for...
55:01
SPEAKER_02: uh,
55:02
SPEAKER_02: we translate it for the most part in most of your Bibles as blessed,
55:04
SPEAKER_02: but it's,
55:06
SPEAKER_02: the word blessed has kind of a interesting connotation because it's more,
55:09
SPEAKER_02: we think about it in the sense of like,
55:10
SPEAKER_02: oh,
55:11
SPEAKER_02: that's God just giving you what you want.
55:13
SPEAKER_02: That's God's like favor upon you.
55:15
SPEAKER_02: And there is definitely an angle of it to that, but,
55:18
SPEAKER_02: In reality,
55:18
SPEAKER_02: like in the Greek context around that time,
55:20
the word makarios was almost like this sense of wholehearted
55:25
flourishing or living
55:26
SPEAKER_02: in line with like the peace or the joy of the gods,
55:29
SPEAKER_02: essentially.
55:30
So you would even think of like if a Greek person was
55:33
describing the joy that the
55:34
SPEAKER_02: gods had,
55:34
SPEAKER_02: they might say the word makarios.
55:36
SPEAKER_02: Like that is how amazing and fortunate that they are.
55:40
For Jesus to say all of these qualities are makarios or
55:45
flourishing,
55:45
like somebody who is...
55:46
poor is flourishing,
55:48
is just a total reorientation of what happiness is all about.
55:51
SPEAKER_02: This idea of what it means to flourish,
55:53
SPEAKER_02: what it means to become good,
55:54
SPEAKER_02: what it means to be a good,
55:55
SPEAKER_02: fortunate person.
55:57
And so everything that he says is makarios is just describing
56:02
somebody who is
56:05
within good standing with God,
56:07
somebody who is living in line with God's goodness.
56:10
And through that,
56:11
they actually will achieve a happiness that is unknown to man
56:15
necessarily.
56:16
So it's not saying that necessarily the Beatitudes living them
56:21
out are going to
56:22
SPEAKER_02: give you just happiness.
56:25
barrels of dopamine and endorphins and serotonin and all that
56:29
it's going to be
56:30
extremely difficult and he mentions that even later in the
56:32
sermon he says this is a
56:34
narrow way not many will come through because it is difficult
56:38
but he is promising
56:39
that the people who do live this way will live a better life
56:43
like that is going to
56:44
be a richer life it might not be like happiness as in
56:47
everything is comfortable and
56:49
SPEAKER_02: like I'm getting all the pleasure that I need but
56:51
SPEAKER_02: But it's going to be happy as in I am living a rich existence.
56:54
SPEAKER_02: I am participating in a grand story that actually means something.
56:58
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to live for a narrative that is so much bigger than myself.
57:01
And so when he offers these beatitudes,
57:03
he's like,
57:04
all right,
57:04
this is what is going to happen.
57:06
SPEAKER_02: It might sound paradoxical.
57:07
SPEAKER_02: You might get persecuted.
57:09
SPEAKER_02: You might have all of these,
57:11
you might have people reviling you and uttering all kinds of
57:15
evil falsely against
57:16
SPEAKER_02: you on my account.
57:17
But you should rejoice and be glad because your reward is great
57:21
in heaven.
57:21
SPEAKER_02: You will be rewarded for this in a true and beautiful way.
57:27
SPEAKER_02: And so he starts the sermon off with that,
57:31
SPEAKER_02: and then the rest of the sermon is sort of describing more and more,
57:34
just taking the listener deeper and deeper into what this kind
57:37
of kingdom way of
57:37
SPEAKER_02: living is.
57:39
SPEAKER_02: And it is just a life of happiness.
57:42
SPEAKER_02: It's not conventional happiness because,
57:43
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
57:43
SPEAKER_02: sometimes you're going to have to be like Martin Luther or,
57:46
SPEAKER_02: you know,
57:46
SPEAKER_02: you're going to be like even the later Martin Luther King Jr.
57:49
SPEAKER_02: and do all this uncomfortable stuff,
57:51
SPEAKER_02: you know,
57:52
SPEAKER_02: standing up and protesting or,
57:54
SPEAKER_02: you know,
57:54
SPEAKER_02: not staying silent in the face of evil,
57:56
SPEAKER_02: things along those lines.
57:58
SPEAKER_02: But precisely our willingness to stand up for what is right,
58:02
SPEAKER_02: to not be concerned about what other people might think about us,
58:05
SPEAKER_02: that is what is going to give us so much joy.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
58:10
SPEAKER_01: I love your word paradoxical, because I think that's what's so amazing.
58:14
I think the whole Sermon on the Mount is that,
58:18
but especially the Beatitudes.
58:20
SPEAKER_01: Because the one that stands out to me,
58:22
SPEAKER_01: because I just taught on it,
58:23
SPEAKER_01: was verse 5,
58:24
SPEAKER_01: where he says,
58:25
SPEAKER_01: Blessed are the meek,
58:26
SPEAKER_01: for they shall inherit the earth.
58:29
SPEAKER_01: What a flipping of all expectations that statement is.
58:34
SPEAKER_01: Happy are those who are meek.
58:36
Because they are going to be the ones that inherit the kingdom
58:40
of heaven,
58:41
so to speak.
58:42
And this totally upends how we often think about those who are
58:49
the movers and shakers.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: It's not the meek ones.
58:51
SPEAKER_01: It's the people who are grabbing life by the horns, so to speak.
58:54
SPEAKER_01: It's the ones who are aggressive, assertive, and self-confident.
58:58
SPEAKER_01: And then you have...
58:59
SPEAKER_01: Jesus saying, actually, it's the meek people.
59:02
SPEAKER_01: It's those people who are quieter,
59:03
SPEAKER_01: humbler,
59:04
SPEAKER_01: and understand that their vindication doesn't come from them,
59:07
SPEAKER_01: like,
59:08
SPEAKER_01: coming to their own self-defense.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: Actually, it's the meek ones.
59:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think that what a total,
59:14
SPEAKER_01: like,
59:14
SPEAKER_01: upending of expectation,
59:17
SPEAKER_01: but not to keep circling back to this,
59:19
SPEAKER_01: but,
59:20
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:20
SPEAKER_01: it must be of God.
59:21
SPEAKER_01: But, like, all of those...
59:24
SPEAKER_01: Again, we're reversing the status perfectionism of any age, his or now.
59:31
We don't have to pursue what society says we have to pursue as
59:35
the most successful
59:37
SPEAKER_01: or the most accomplished or all these things.
59:40
These are the ambitions that God puts before us that are deemed
59:45
holy,
59:45
good and true.
59:46
SPEAKER_01: And like, what a joy that he just like gives them to us.
59:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think once again,
59:52
SPEAKER_01: I think all of Jesus's ministry was,
59:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:56
SPEAKER_01: like the apostles,
59:56
SPEAKER_01: they're accused of turning the world upside down.
59:59
SPEAKER_01: And I think that it fits because that's what Jesus was doing.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: And he's doing it right here at the very beginning with these Beatitudes,
1:00:07
SPEAKER_01: which kind of flip a lot of things on their head.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_01: But anyways, yeah.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: it's such a fascinating like as you said it's a fascinating sermon it's a
1:00:16
fascinating piece of writing and it's a like there's a reason
1:00:20
why it's so resonant
1:00:21
because there's so many different facets to it yeah yeah well
1:00:25
honestly we didn't
1:00:26
come into this podcast with a script at all but I feel like
1:00:29
this this past point
1:00:30
just really drew a through line from our very beginning to
1:00:33
where we are now so I
1:00:34
SPEAKER_01: think so that's awesome yeah man I love that um
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to link to those.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_01: I want people, hopefully people read those.
1:00:42
I have a couple of questions for you and I don't want to take
1:00:44
up all your night,
1:00:45
but this is a question I really want to ask you because I've
1:00:50
been so happy to see
1:00:52
SPEAKER_01: like you and your Substack just like get really successful.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, I think it's awesome.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_01: and you've just been killing it, so good on you.
1:00:59
What is a piece that you've done from 2025 that you are super
1:01:04
proud of that didn't
1:01:06
SPEAKER_01: grab anyone's attention like you thought it would?
1:01:09
SPEAKER_01: Is there a piece that you can think of that didn't do as well?
1:01:14
SPEAKER_01: I think there was one that even said,
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: I know people are not going to read this,
1:01:20
SPEAKER_01: which I have those all the time.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_02: That was for today's one.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_02: So you always got to wait until overnight to see how it goes.
1:01:30
Okay,
1:01:30
from 2025,
1:01:31
I would say I wrote an essay that had to do with my hometown.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_02: My hometown of Kalamazoo.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_02: And an international scholar came to Kalamazoo to see...
1:01:44
We're having an issue with young men in my city where we just
1:01:48
don't have very much
1:01:49
SPEAKER_02: ambition whatsoever.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_02: We have something called the Kalamazoo Promise,
1:01:52
SPEAKER_02: which essentially means that if you graduate from our high schools,
1:01:56
SPEAKER_02: an anonymous donor system is going to pay for all of your college free,
1:02:01
SPEAKER_02: like no strings attached.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_02: And men have...
1:02:06
So the amount of men that were attending college before the
1:02:08
Kalamazoo Promise and
1:02:09
SPEAKER_02: then the amount of men that attended college after the Kalamazoo Promise,
1:02:13
SPEAKER_02: there was a 0% change.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_02: So no men took advantage of that whatsoever, which was insane.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_02: There was almost nothing like that that you can compare it to.
1:02:21
And so an international scholar came to Kalamazoo a couple
1:02:25
years ago just to
1:02:26
SPEAKER_02: interview young men and just say,
1:02:27
SPEAKER_02: what's going on here?
1:02:29
SPEAKER_02: And so that was just extremely personal to me.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_02: And it just it just didn't have a universal appeal, you know.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_01: What do you what do you do?
1:02:41
I think we've talked about this before,
1:02:43
but maybe this is rehashing,
1:02:44
but like.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_01: What is,
1:02:46
SPEAKER_01: what is something that you tell yourself,
1:02:48
SPEAKER_01: like when that happens,
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: like when you're like,
1:02:50
SPEAKER_01: oh man,
1:02:51
SPEAKER_01: that didn't get the traction that I was hoping for.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_01: Like what, what is something that you quote unquote preach to yourself?
1:02:56
Like,
1:02:57
like when that,
1:02:58
when you can kind of see that unfolding in real time.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_02: Oh, man.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_02: Well,
1:03:01
SPEAKER_02: it sounds super cliche,
1:03:02
SPEAKER_02: but just this idea of thinking about just works righteousness,
1:03:05
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:03:05
SPEAKER_02: because I mean,
1:03:06
SPEAKER_02: there's been times where I'm like,
1:03:07
SPEAKER_02: I,
1:03:08
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:03:08
SPEAKER_02: I,
1:03:09
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
1:03:09
SPEAKER_02: so I teach and I'm doing my PhD,
1:03:12
SPEAKER_02: but honestly,
1:03:12
SPEAKER_02: writing is one of the things that I feel most passionate about.
1:03:15
And so that's where I find a lot of my emotion gets kind of
1:03:17
like sucked up into.
1:03:19
SPEAKER_02: And so it's a little bit cliche,
1:03:21
but I just noticed that if I'm ever feeling like sad because a
1:03:25
piece is not
1:03:25
performing very well or an article is not performing as well as
1:03:28
I had hoped or
1:03:29
SPEAKER_02: something like that,
1:03:30
like I just have to remember like that's just me just trying to
1:03:33
decide my worth
1:03:34
SPEAKER_02: based off of performance,
1:03:36
SPEAKER_00: which is,
1:03:37
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:03:37
SPEAKER_02: I try my absolute best in what I do.
1:03:40
And it gets to a point almost where it's like there is nothing
1:03:44
more that you could do.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_02: Like this article is just what it is.
1:03:49
I'm sure you know you could have other friends come in and edit
1:03:51
it and sometimes
1:03:52
I'll you know ask for some help in that area too but there just
1:03:55
usually comes a
1:03:55
point where it's like there's nothing else I can do I try my
1:03:57
best I gave it my all
1:03:59
SPEAKER_02: and so if I start feeling sad or you know
1:04:03
SPEAKER_02: down on myself about something not performing very well,
1:04:06
I just remind myself that that's just kind of a works sense of
1:04:10
righteousness where
1:04:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to earn my sense of approval from how I perform,
1:04:15
SPEAKER_02: which is just wrong and horrible.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_02: And I'm never going to be satisfied if I live my life that way.
1:04:20
no no that is a dead end to a very joyless existence oh
1:04:25
absolutely trying to keep
1:04:26
keep tabs on that um you're writing a book or you've written a
1:04:31
book i don't know
1:04:31
where you are in the process uh i don't know if i think you've
1:04:35
shared the title so
1:04:36
maybe i can share it here the radical abolition of discontent
1:04:39
which is just awesome
1:04:40
tell me about the book tell our listeners it's not coming out
1:04:43
for a long time so
1:04:44
people have to wait for a while but um well maybe a long time i
1:04:47
don't know
1:04:48
But just kind of what drew you to this and what can people
1:04:54
expect when they pick it up?
1:04:56
SPEAKER_01: Because hopefully everyone's going to pre-order it like I am.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_02: Oh, thanks, man.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_02: That's so nice of you to say.
1:05:01
SPEAKER_02: So building off of where we're at with Protestantism, so a lot of –
1:05:07
amazing roots to protestantism as we were just talking about um
1:05:11
really really
1:05:12
obviously wonderful stuff going on there but somewhere in the
1:05:15
past century we've
1:05:15
kind of lost this uh idea that uh we're allowed to be happy
1:05:19
essentially that uh you
1:05:20
know even though we will not experience perfect happiness until
1:05:23
the eschaton or
1:05:24
until you know life after death that we can be egregiously
1:05:29
amazingly happy in this
1:05:30
SPEAKER_02: present life like we have so much access to that we can
1:05:34
SPEAKER_02: Every pleasure that we experience,
1:05:35
SPEAKER_02: we can bring that into our communion with God,
1:05:37
SPEAKER_02: and the pleasure is amplified.
1:05:39
Every time we do something or work,
1:05:41
we can see it as an extension of what God has called us to.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_02: Every time we're trying to learn or do something or experience or travel,
1:05:48
SPEAKER_02: all of these things and these experiences,
1:05:50
SPEAKER_02: we kind of tend to compartmentalize them from our life with God,
1:05:55
SPEAKER_02: trying to say certain things might be more spiritual,
1:05:58
SPEAKER_02: other things are more secular.
1:05:59
But in reality,
1:06:00
all of these beautiful things that God has blessed us with,
1:06:04
SPEAKER_02: should just be brought into our relationship with him,
1:06:06
SPEAKER_02: and then it can just be amplified from there.
1:06:09
And so the book is just generally attacking some of these kind
1:06:12
of ideas that
1:06:13
SPEAKER_02: Christians aren't allowed to be happy,
1:06:15
SPEAKER_02: that happiness is selfish or wrong or things along those lines,
1:06:20
SPEAKER_02: and just kind of trying to establish.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_02: There's been so much history within the Christian tradition.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_02: I mean, Augustine was the most famous name who
1:06:28
SPEAKER_02: First started talking about it,
1:06:29
but I mean it dated back to the early apostles and even Justin
1:06:33
Martyr who was like
1:06:33
one of the very first theologians who ever started doing work
1:06:38
But there was just
1:06:38
this idea that you know happiness is this answer to the
1:06:41
universal longing in the
1:06:42
human heart to be content You know every human no matter who
1:06:45
you are we all desire
1:06:47
contentment We make our decisions essentially based around what
1:06:50
we think is going
1:06:50
SPEAKER_02: to make us most happy and
1:06:51
And so what the early apostles and especially Augustine picked
1:06:54
up on this lot is
1:06:55
SPEAKER_02: that the human hunger for happiness is only satiated or answered by God,
1:07:00
SPEAKER_02: by the way of life that Jesus gave to us.
1:07:03
And so even if we want to connect it back to the Beatitudes
1:07:05
that we were just
1:07:06
SPEAKER_02: talking about,
1:07:06
picture like Jesus just sitting on the side of a hill and
1:07:08
saying that word
1:07:09
SPEAKER_02: makarios.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_02: He's saying like,
1:07:11
SPEAKER_02: hey,
1:07:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm assuming every single one of you wants to be truly deeply happy,
1:07:15
SPEAKER_02: but you're not happy.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_02: Well, here's why.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_02: Let me tell you what actually makes somebody blessed
1:07:19
happy or flourish and it's these qualities and then he goes in
1:07:22
the sermon on the
1:07:22
mountain he's like if you live this way of life you will be
1:07:25
blessed you will be
1:07:26
happy and so i'm trying to just tie in a lot of that history
1:07:31
with a lot of just the
1:07:32
theology and then just a lot of the things that we get wrong in
1:07:35
order to just come
1:07:36
up with a more just general level theology of happiness that
1:07:41
anybody could pick up
1:07:42
like i really just i don't want it to be heady i want just
1:07:44
anybody who's interested
1:07:45
SPEAKER_02: in like
1:07:47
Jesus or trying to follow God just to be able to pick it up and
1:07:50
be able to understand it.
1:07:52
SPEAKER_01: Oh man, I love that.
1:07:54
SPEAKER_01: I love that so much because I think it's so true that there's like this
1:08:00
low level sort of like stoicism within christianity sometimes
1:08:03
where it's like the
1:08:04
more faithful you are the less happy you are and the more
1:08:07
austere you are about
1:08:08
certain things as if christians can't laugh and like we can't
1:08:12
have the deepest
1:08:13
laughter of all um and there was i think there's a sermon that
1:08:17
i have somewhere and
1:08:20
SPEAKER_01: it probably made jonathan edwards like roll over in his grave but i said
1:08:24
SPEAKER_01: But,
1:08:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:08:24
SPEAKER_01: he has,
1:08:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:08:25
SPEAKER_01: Edward's famous sermon is Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_01: I preach a sermon called Sinners in the Hands of a Happy God.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_01: And it comes out of 1 Timothy 1.11,
1:08:36
SPEAKER_01: where Paul says,
1:08:37
in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God
1:08:41
with which I have
1:08:42
SPEAKER_01: been entrusted.
1:08:43
SPEAKER_01: And that word is makarios, the blessed God, the happy God.
1:08:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, man.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_01: What a fascinating picture that Paul has of this.
1:08:53
He's like,
1:08:54
I've been entrusted with this good news that comes from the
1:08:58
happy God.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_01: What a picture that is.
1:09:00
SPEAKER_01: But also, that's our faith.
1:09:03
SPEAKER_01: That's the church.
1:09:04
SPEAKER_01: I think it's Steve Brown, the Key Life radio guy.
1:09:07
He once was talking about the fact that you will know the
1:09:10
redeemed by their laughter.
1:09:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's a really good sentiment.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the point too.
1:09:19
Like we don't have to like have like this put on a fake smile
1:09:24
sort of veneer,
1:09:26
SPEAKER_01: but also like there is so much to be joyful about.
1:09:29
SPEAKER_01: And I think I'm teaching apologetics class in my church right now.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_01: And so obviously we're using first Peter three 15,
1:09:35
SPEAKER_01: you know you're going to make a defense for the hope that is in you.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_01: And I think hope is inherently a happy quality.
1:09:43
SPEAKER_01: Like,
1:09:44
SPEAKER_01: It's not like,
1:09:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:09:45
SPEAKER_01: Pollyanna,
1:09:45
SPEAKER_01: pie in the sky,
1:09:46
like everything's going to work out in the end because you
1:09:48
could face like
1:09:50
SPEAKER_01: difficult realities and still be hopeful.
1:09:52
But also there's this happiness that can't be taken away based
1:09:57
on circumstances.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is that I think is what Christianity gives us.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_01: That is what Christ gives us by giving us himself.
1:10:09
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
1:10:09
SPEAKER_02: I totally agree, man.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_01: I just love that stuff.
1:10:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, we'll end here.
1:10:14
SPEAKER_01: What's something I can't wait to order your book by the way.
1:10:17
SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited for that.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_01: What's, what's something that has surprised you recently?
1:10:21
SPEAKER_01: Like something you've read or watched like a movie TV show song.
1:10:25
What's something that has like just totally caught you off
1:10:27
guard with either how
1:10:28
SPEAKER_01: good it is or how bad it is.
1:10:31
SPEAKER_02: Oh, sorry.
1:10:33
SPEAKER_02: That's kind of broad.
1:10:35
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
1:10:35
SPEAKER_02: Let me think.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, I wrote this book, um, called, uh,
1:10:40
SPEAKER_02: What was it?
1:10:40
SPEAKER_02: Atonement by Ian McEwen.
1:10:43
SPEAKER_02: And I was shocked by how sad the ending was.
1:10:46
SPEAKER_02: It was horribly sad.
1:10:48
SPEAKER_02: Let me think.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_02: I was really impressed by this movie.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_02: It's not very appropriate, so I'm sorry for mentioning it on the podcast.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_02: But One Battle After Another with Leonardo DiCaprio.
1:11:00
SPEAKER_02: I heard it was very good,
1:11:02
SPEAKER_02: but I kind of was like,
1:11:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:11:03
SPEAKER_02: sometimes if you see a movie that gets like 99% of Rotten Tomatoes,
1:11:07
SPEAKER_02: sometimes you can kind of be like,
1:11:09
SPEAKER_02: okay,
1:11:09
SPEAKER_02: like what?
1:11:10
was this like all just critics trying to be like a little
1:11:12
pretentious and maybe
1:11:14
SPEAKER_02: hype up a movie that's a little weird.
1:11:16
SPEAKER_02: And then I watched it.
1:11:17
SPEAKER_02: I just remember just being like in awe the whole time.
1:11:20
SPEAKER_02: I was like, this is so good.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_02: So I would say, I would say probably those two things.
1:11:25
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
1:11:26
SPEAKER_01: Dude, I love it.
1:11:27
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_01: I can't wait for all the rest to come out of Reality Theology in 2026.
1:11:33
SPEAKER_01: I had so many other questions, but I know you've got to run.
1:11:36
SPEAKER_01: So I'm happily going to say we'll catch this up on a later date.
1:11:41
SPEAKER_01: Brother, thank you.
1:11:42
Thank you for your writing,
1:11:43
your friendship,
1:11:44
and we'll catch you on another episode.
1:11:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you so much.
1:11:48
SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate you having me on.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
1:11:51
SPEAKER_01: I hope you've been blessed by this episode.
1:11:53
Make sure if you haven't yet,
1:11:54
go subscribe to Reality Theology Griffin's Substack.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_01: Make sure you do that.
1:11:59
SPEAKER_01: It is just a thrill to always have his essays hit your news feed,
1:12:05
SPEAKER_01: whether it's every week or every other week.
1:12:08
SPEAKER_01: Just go do that.
1:12:09
SPEAKER_01: You'll benefit from it.
1:12:11
And if you haven't yet subscribed to ministry mind on an Apple
1:12:13
or Spotify or
1:12:14
SPEAKER_01: wherever you get your podcasts,
1:12:15
SPEAKER_01: thank you so much for all your encouragement and support.
1:12:18
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening and commenting and I'll see you on the next episode.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_01: Blessings.