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Executive Career Change: When Stability isn't enough - Paul's Career Switch Story · Happen To Your Career - Meaningful Work, Career Change, Career Design, & Job Search

• 0:00
  Paul Ichilcik: I was spending 80 or 90% of my time doing something that I didn't enjoy, and that didn't actually gel with my skills.
• 0:07
  Scott Anthony Barlow: What happens when your work looks perfect on paper but feels empty in reality?
• 0:12
  Paul Ichilcik: So I was doing more business development and outreach rather than what I love doing, which is the change communications, writing speeches, things like that.
• 0:21
  Scott Anthony Barlow: The role was secure. The people were great, but deep down, something was missing.
• 0:25
  Paul Ichilcik: There were a lot of things that ticked the boxes, but I started to see that it was just getting more, yeah, more frustrating.
• 0:31
  Scott Anthony Barlow: And then came the breaking point.
• 0:33
  Paul Ichilcik: After that pitch, something has to be different.
• 0:34
  Scott Anthony Barlow: That's Paul Ichilcik, a leader in communications who found himself spending less time writing and speaking and inspiring and more time pitching, selling, and chasing work that he didn't love.
• 0:46
  Paul Ichilcik: The security aspect is, I think, fundamental. We tie our identity closely into our role.
• 0:53
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Like many of us, Paul was trapped by security, identity, and what success was supposed to look like.
• 0:59
  Paul Ichilcik: I had leadership roles, but I also found that it wasn't particularly fulfilling.
• 1:04
  Scott Anthony Barlow: So Paul did something different. He stepped back to figure out his values, his strengths, and his direction.
• 1:10
  Paul Ichilcik: Taking the time up front to do the ideal career profile. It made a big difference. So, one point I had to say to them, “I don't think it's gonna be a good fit.” And they were surprised.
• 1:21
  Scott Anthony Barlow: It wasn't just about choosing a job; it was about choosing himself.
• 1:23
  Paul Ichilcik: I feel in this new organization, I can really be myself and be authentic.
• 1:27
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Paul's journey proves you don't have to settle. You can challenge the assumptions, redefine success, and build work around the life you actually want.
• 1:35
  Paul Ichilcik: Challenge your assumptions. The easier it gets to kind of work your way towards an environment or a role that is more aligned.
• 1:42
  Scott Anthony Barlow: This is Paul's story on the Happen To Your Career podcast. This is the podcast that brings you real people, real transformations, and the courage to do work that truly fits. And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed, click follow right now so you don't miss any new episodes. Here's Paul describing what led up to him making a career change in the first place.
• 2:03
  Paul Ichilcik: When I started my role, my previous role, I was doing a much stronger balance of things that I loved. And then I realized over time why my days’ getting longer and I don't feel like I'm achieving as much and as fulfilled. And I think there was that balance shifting.
• 2:17
  Scott Anthony Barlow: So when you say that balance, my perception from chatting with you is that at different points in time, you have had a better balance. Like in the past, when we look at, you know, past roles that you've been in, past opportunities that you've had, and you have had a higher percentage of your day doing activities that energized you versus, you know, drained you.
• 2:43
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah, exactly. And you can tell when the day goes quickly or when you're feeling creative a lot more of the time. And obviously, there's always things that are a bit of a grind or that need to be done, but in general, what's the energy level? That's how I measured it, and I could see a distinct change has over time. I was just doing things that I didn't enjoy, and didn't give me the energy and the juice.
• 3:04
  Scott Anthony Barlow: So if I remember correctly, there were one or two other events that led you to say, “I need to focus on making this change sooner rather than later.”
• 3:12
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah. So, a couple of things. One was I didn't think the organization I was in was gonna, and the role that I was doing was gonna be viable into the future because we weren't doing enough of the actual work, like I said. So that was something that was important. And then the other thing was just feeling that I wanted to use the gifts and skills that I had that were not being reflected in the role. And I could get a sense that the possibility was there, but in reality, it wasn't actually happening. And so as the time was dragging on, both the confidence and also just the general excitement to get engaged at work was waning.
• 3:47
  Scott Anthony Barlow: How long passed when you started recognizing this at the beginning and saying, “Okay, company's moving a direction that's probably not gonna be good for the long term. And then at the same time, I'm also spending less and less of my day, and that's gonna, that's not gonna end well.” Yeah. How long before you initially recognize that and decided, “Okay, I have to do something about this. I have to make a change.”?
• 4:13
  Paul Ichilcik: It was probably a year or even 18 months of gradually realizing I'm not doing the work that I wanna do. And it's hard because on paper, and if you looked at the organization I work for, it is great, and the people are fantastic. So there were a lot of things that ticked the boxes, and people would say, “Well, what's the problem? You're in a great role.” But I started to see that I was just getting more, yeah, more frustrating, and not just spending so much time doing outreach to people trying to get the work. And then at one point, we did a major pitch, and I felt, this is it. This is the kind of work I want to do. And we almost got there, but it fell over at the end, and then I realized I'd spent two months, the past two months, just working on this deck and this presentation and reaching out to different people internally and externally. I think when that pitch, which was about a year in, you know, a year before I really started feeling that urgency, I gotta a change. I thought after that pitch, something has to be different because this is not what I'm, you know, want to be doing.
• 5:11
  Scott Anthony Barlow: It seemed like there were elements of that pitch, like the communication pieces that you were absolutely loving, but also at the same time, you know, when it didn't work.
• 5:21
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah.
• 5:22
  Scott Anthony Barlow: It caused you to realize, “Okay, look, this is not the place. I can't keep doing this in the same way.” Were there elements in there that you were finding that you were excited about?
• 5:33
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah, there were definitely parts, and I could say the potential for it. So what we were putting into the proposal or the pitch was all the kind of work that I wanted to do that, in theory, this role was going to give me, but I wasn't actually doing it. And most of the time I was spending doing planning, management of different logistics and people, which, some, you know, might appeal to some people, and it's not what I love or am good at. I think it was tantalizing because I could see the potential. But over that pitch experience and the prior year, I realized what am I actually experiencing versus what am I, in my mind or on paper, experiencing.
• 6:08
  Scott Anthony Barlow: What is the future potential that is not yet realized, in addition to that?
• 6:12
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah, exactly. And it's a cyclical industry, so that, because there was a downturn as well, you have to think, “Am I gonna ride this out? Am I gonna have the time to ride it out or the energy?” And it got more and more, the pressure built more and more.
• 6:26
  Scott Anthony Barlow: One of the questions that I hear all the time is around this idea of, “If I make a change, will I lose?” Whether it be the people that I'm working with, like there's a million different things that, in your case in particular, were great about your situation in many ways, not just on paper, but also in reality there were some really great things, even though there were, you know, less and less activities that you were feeling energized about. I tend to think about that is identifying the pieces that you wanna take with to the new opportunity in one way or another. And you had all these wonderful, wonderful pieces, and you definitely wanted to take some of those with to your next situation, your next opportunity, your next job. But that's really easy to say and really difficult to do when we, as humans, are very motivated by the potential for loss. I'm curious, what allowed you to be able to move through that and start thinking about it differently, where most people would be saying, “Hey, I don't wanna make this change because I'm worried about losing all of these wonderful pieces.” And instead focusing on, “Hey, these are great, but I'm gonna take these with me, and then in addition I'm going to find what else is a fit.”
• 7:42
  Paul Ichilcik: That's definitely right. And the security aspect is, I think, fundamental, but you're in a secure role, and that's something that can't be underestimated. And we flippantly say, “I'm just gonna do what I love.” But when you're taking away both the financial security. And also, there's a status element, there's an identity. We tie our identity closely into our role. And I think I'm Australian originally, but having been in the US for 10 years, I think in the US, particular job and identity are very closely tied. So, giving up that security, and people ask you at a party or a barbecue, “What do you do?” And you say, “Oh, I work for this group,” or, “I do this.” It's difficult to give that up when it comes to the crunch. So, as I'm looking at making the change here, I think the main, to get to your question, the main thing that was driving it was just that reality of all of those things can be great, but what's happening to me as a person and to my day-to-day being, how I interact, I was just being drained. And as that got more and more difficult, it became easier to make the jump. And then I also have to recognize I'm in a position where I had a bit of flexibility. Like, I don't have a family and three kids in private school that I have to get through. So that does make it easier. But we all have our challenges in different ways, and for me, it was what kind of person was I turning up as both at work and in my private life? And I could see it gradually waning over that year because it was being drained by work.
• 9:09
  Scott Anthony Barlow: One of the things that you just mentioned is the difference between those identity pieces, particularly, you know, like Western US. We tend to, if we were on a spectrum, US tends to lean pretty heavily towards identifying with our work as who we are. I'm not gonna judge at this moment, but for right or wrong, in the US, that tends to happen. What's been your experience, Australia or other countries? ‘Cause I know you've had an opportunity to live and work in a variety of different areas. But what has been your experience in terms of difference, and then also how does that shape how you think about yourself?
• 9:48
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah, I think the stakes are much higher when you tie your identity completely to your career, and let's say your job even, your job title, or the organization you're with. So the stakes seem a lot higher, whereas in other countries, you might be introduced, like I lived in the UK for a while, or in Europe in general. They won't necessarily introduce, people won't introduce themselves as their job. That will come out after a while. Or you may, there may be someone who's an accountant, but that is really not a big part of their identity. It's what they do for work, and they enjoy it. But then the conversation is not all about identity. Now, the extreme for me was when I was living in San Francisco and I would go out on a Friday night or a Saturday night, and every single conversation I had was about the latest technology and development, and or entrepreneurial. And that's fun too, you know, there is a lot of excitement about that. But if your entire existence is based around the job or the title, the stakes are higher. And a lot of people hang onto it at the expense of not becoming well-rounded. And I saw that even with one job I took in the US, I only got two weeks' annual leave. And that was a shock because in Australia it's an automatic four. In Europe, it's closer to eight. And I think that speaks to a little bit of you need to have balance in life to be better at work as well, and in your career. So I think that's the difference. The positive of the US is the creativity and the willingness to take risks, and take people based on their merit, I think, is fantastic. So that's why I loved working in the US. But there is a downside.
• 11:18
  Scott Anthony Barlow: The most interesting part to me is what happens when people, however they identify, what happens when that's ripped away in an uncontrolled fashion in one way or another, what you are left with, and what you are left associating your identity with after something that is external causes it to be sort of removed. That's where I think you can see how healthy was that identity in the first place, which this could be a much longer podcast episode all on its own, I suppose, this one topic, right?
• 11:48
  Paul Ichilcik: Absolutely. But it's very powerful for people. Like, even when I handed in my laptop to this company, I went to the corporate office, handed my laptop, said goodbye to my team. I felt like a loss, a really big sense of loss, and that I'm no longer part of this organization, or I'm not, you know, that title. So even though I'm talking as if this was a choice that I made and I moved through it, it's still difficult even up to, even now, you know.
• 12:14
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Yeah, tell me a little bit about, as you started moving through the process to figure out what would create a great fit for you and what would be better aligned. You knew some of those parts going into it, like you already had evidence from your past that you loved those areas of, you know, communication, as an example. What did this process start to look like for you, particularly where did you start to experience challenges along the way as you were making a change?
• 12:41
  Paul Ichilcik: I think the biggest challenge for me was working out the difference between things that I liked and enjoyed and was good at versus I was good at. They were just giving me all those other things, like a good career, a job on paper, but not in practice. So those strengths and the exercises I did with my coach Heather, about refining down to, okay, what are the things that I'm really going to prioritize in a new role or a new career direction? And for me, it wasn't a massive shift, but it was enough of a shift to eliminate things or downplay things that were not a priority. So, one example, project management or developing communication plans, is a big part of the role. And I could speak to all of those things in an interview, and they would sound great, but the reality is it's not something that I actually enjoyed doing or spending a lot of my time on. So then what do I enjoy more, and what part of the communications and change practice executive coaching do I enjoy? So defining that was a challenge, and also being honest about it to myself and my coach was a big help there, really prodding and testing. Okay, you're making this assertion that you like to be an entrepreneur or have an entrepreneurial element, but what kind of entrepreneurship do you like to do?
• 13:58
  Scott Anthony Barlow: What does that actually mean?
• 13:59
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah. What does that mean?
• 14:00
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Yeah. Well, and I think another area that you had described to me too was you'd had many different leadership roles in the past. What are the parts that are actually most valuable to me out of leadership? It sounded like it ended up not being what you thought. That allowed you to deprioritize it in some ways. So tell me a little bit about that.
• 14:21
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah, and I think we're often conditioned, or I certainly was, to believe that as you progress, you become more of a leader and take on a management leadership role, and then that is success, so to speak. And I had leadership roles and led consulting teams and work streams, but I also found that I wasn't particularly fulfilling to be spending time again on the management of people and all of the functions that leaders typically have to do. So, individual contributor doesn't sound as glamorous as a leader, or you just managing a small team of two or three people doesn't sound as advanced as you know, I've got a team of 40 people working under me, but the reality is that my coach pushed me. That's not something that I necessarily enjoy. So then why try and push for that just because it's an external expectation or desire?
• 15:07
  Scott Anthony Barlow: How did you do that? I know it's easy now for us to sit here and say, “Hey, I had to admit that this one was, you know, less of a priority compared to this one over here.” But that's really difficult to do when you're in the moment and you're looking at the parts and pieces, you know, this area of leadership is useful to me. This area of communications is actually really what I'm interested in most. It's so difficult to say, “Hey, I'm gonna prioritize this part above these other parts.” What worked for you to be able to declare that some were higher priorities?
• 15:41
  Paul Ichilcik: Well, I think my coach was great in helping me to look at specific scenarios. So we'd go through prior roles, prior experiences within my current role, and say, “Okay, what parts of,” in this case, “the business development or sales did you enjoy in that context?” And we would go through like a particular pitch and what I enjoyed doing, what I didn't, or a client relationship, why was that great? Why wasn't it? And over time, we started to pull out those specifics of, okay, what made it enjoyable for me and that I was good at. But it was from that empirical, like we went through with a fine comb, those different experiences, which I really appreciated rather than just the generalities.
• 16:21
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Well, and then that starts to add up, then. And as you said, that starts to create some empirical evidence, where we've got this data point, this data point, this data point, and here's the commonalities amongst these data points. Okay, now I can start to make a decision with this. Now I can start to say, “Okay, there actually is a lot here in this particular area.” That probably makes it more important as you started to identify, “Here's what I'm… Here's what's on my ideal career profile”, and you started moving into the, “Okay, where am I going to find this in the real world?” At that stage, what was most challenging for you?
• 16:58
  Paul Ichilcik: I think one of the things is reaching out to people. I'm naturally an introvert, so I've had many conversations in the past career exploration conversations, and I didn't find a lot of them as engaging or fruitful as when I went through this process, because what happened in this process is getting specific, like we were just saying, meant that I knew what questions to ask. I was also meeting the kinds of people, or people who knew people, in areas that would be relevant to something that would be enjoyable for me. So a conversation with someone who works in software sales was not gonna be as enjoyable for me as someone who was in professional services, but was focused on relationship, client relationship building. Whereas in the past, I might have that, you know, an hour coffee or Zoom chat with a person in software sales. And it was a good chat, but nothing really came of it. And I was, I wasn't that, I didn't have follow on questions.
• 17:53
  Scott Anthony Barlow: But then what?
• 17:54
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah. Whereas when I spoke to the person in professional services, relationship building, I learned so much. The conversation, both the questions, were natural, and I just wanted it to keep going because that was the specific area that I was interested in. So my coach helped refine that, and then it was actually efficient, taking the time up front to do the ideal career profile to work out what my values and direction were, and those strengths that I was good at and enjoyed. It made a big difference when I got to that contact stage and exploration.
• 18:22
  Scott Anthony Barlow: I think that what you just mentioned is so nuanced, though. I really appreciate the example because you can have two people that can go through and they can have good interactions with a variety of different people around the world and have one of them, like you, be able to eventually turn that into offer, like real-world pain offers. And you know, have the other person have so many of those conversations and just dead end, where they're like, “Okay, this was a good conversation, I guess, but now what?” Just like you said, you know, a moment ago, but I think the real difference is what you described. Have you done the work to get to the level of specificity about what you want, what you're interested in, what does line up, and then are you targeting to be able to talk to those people in roles or the organizations that actually are more likely to be a fit? And then from there, being able to go and have better conversations that you're better prepared for, you know, in ways that are more interesting to you, is what I heard you say. Which then, are we really surprised that when all of those things line up, that more likely, or is more likely to yield results? No, I suppose not, but really, really good description. What did you find as you were getting to have those types of interactions? What allowed you to be able to better prepare for those interactions?
• 19:52
  Paul Ichilcik: I think having the ideal career profile, so knowing all the parts that were important and having the antenna up for if they mentioned something in the conversation, knowing where to go deeper or, I don't enjoy networking like a lot of people, but I enjoyed the conversation, those conversations where they would mention a company or an individual or an organization in that specific area. And then I was really intrigued to know more. Could they introduce me, or what does that company do? So I just felt a lot more prepared of where to dig deeper. And that was, having worked with my coach and prepared, made a big difference in that area.
• 20:28
  Scott Anthony Barlow: That's a really great example too, and I think what it seems like it allowed you to do by better understanding what was interesting to you and honing in on the people that were, that you actually wanted to talk to, I guess, let's call it that. And then on top of that, preparing in a way that allowed you to go deeper into the areas that you were curious about. That seemed to be much more effective if a strategy for you. Is that right?
• 20:56
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah, that's exactly right. And then, and really pushing the people to explain what they did in detail. So another example is I've done a lot of events where you plan events for leaders to communicate a change. And so I thought maybe one area I'll explore is event production or development. 'Cause you can tell the story through an event. And I spoke to a very successful event designer planner. I pushed them on what they did day to day. And most of the time was spent putting together different pieces and production aspects. Everything from sound to the, you know, design, to things like that. That don't interest me personally, I’m interested in them– that production person. But I would like to partner with them and really focus on the content and the story that we're telling rather than become part of a production organization or team. There's some great, you know, companies that put on brand events or big change events, and I thought maybe I'll join one of those. But pushing them on the details and the specifics of what they did, I realized no, that's a partner. That's not someone that I wanna actually work with.
• 22:01
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Yeah. That's a really fantastic point. And I think just even how you're thinking about that, that changes the relationship. Whether it's the first time you met that individual, or whether it is, I don't know, down, you know, seventh time.
• 22:16
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah. And we'll hopefully work together down the track, but it would be in partnership, that just won't be me working for that organization.
• 22:23
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Yeah, absolutely. That type of even mindset is an approach that I've utilized, and once my favorite approach is quite frankly, like going into not just job search, but going into negotiations, going into anything where there's going to be a relationship there. You know, creating sort of this equal footing, you know, we are partners type of relationship. It doesn't matter if that person ends up being your boss or I don't know, your skip, or, yeah, I don’t know, pick. It doesn't matter. It creates more of that partnership type of situation, which changes the dynamic. And then I find that generally people appreciate that. Not everybody, but most people tend to appreciate that.
• 23:06
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah, for sure. And there's that sense of if you give and you share and you get to know people that are in your general field, those opportunities just open up and the synchronicity happens.
• 23:16
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Yeah, a hundred percent. Different thing that I'm really curious about here, Paul, you know, as you got into those type of interactions. Do you remember any of those interactions that stood out in terms of conversation you had, or one that you particularly prepped for and just went really well? Tell me a little about one of those conversations in particular.
• 23:39
  Paul Ichilcik: So one of them went really well, but I also got caught, which I'll explain now, but it was…
• 23:43
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Okay, now, I'm curious.
• 23:44
  Paul Ichilcik: It was with a consulting company that did some, I thought, some really interesting things, and they used the latest technology. They were big into AI. So I thought, this is going to, this is gonna be great, exploring more about how they're using the technology, and it will help me to become more enmeshed in that sort of thing. But then what I realized is as I was speaking to them, the kind of change and the communications they did were not the kind that I enjoyed or that I was really focused on. They were much, much broader and much more detailed than the kind of changes that I dealt with. And I enjoy working with executives and individuals, so you can have that human element. And a lot of this was putting out the message on mass, which is important, but you didn't get that much one-to-one kind of interaction with leaders. And so what was difficult and challenging is that was opening up into, “We'll get you to meet this person and this person…” And there was potentially gonna be a job offer or opportunity, and it was gonna be good money. All of those things we spoke about. Great company, good money. And I had, my coach had to really push me to say, okay, all the things you're talking about, the kind of change, communications you'll be doing there are not the kind that we've identified in your ideal career profile. So at one point I had to say to them, “This has been fascinating and I love the technology part and how we could use it, but the actual roles we're starting to get towards and what your organization focuses on, your client base, I don't think it's gonna be a good fit.” And they were surprised. And when I was saying it, there was a big part of me that was pulling back and saying, “Look at the potential. You're not gonna have a job, you're not gonna have a paycheck. This is gonna be great.”
• 25:26
  Scott Anthony Barlow: “Don't do it, Paul. There's all these good things.”
• 25:28
  Paul Ichilcik: And even afterwards, I felt a little bit like, “What have I just given up?” And speaking to my coach and then down the track, I realized, well, I've done that in the past. I have taken jobs. I once took a job working in a private equity company. So I was looking at spreadsheets all day. Even though I can do numbers, it's not my passion at all, like spreadsheets. And I took it for the money and the status and the opportunity, and I think within eight weeks I was out of there. So this was a little bit more like it was still changed communications, but it wasn't the right audience, and it wasn't the right clients that I was gonna be interacting with. So again, what was my day gonna look like? It wasn't gonna be fun six months down the track. I'd be coming back to my coach, saying we needed a look again.
• 26:12
  Scott Anthony Barlow: What feels different? What's different in your life?
• 26:16
  Paul Ichilcik: So the energy has come back, and I haven't started my new role. It's coming up in the future, but just interactions with the people in the new role. I can see that they place a real value on the skills that are important to me, and their culture is gonna be one of opening up those doors and valuing what I do. So I think I got a little bit lost in this great organization that wasn't, didn't know where to fit the skills that I do in my prior role. And so that was really frustrating 'cause I could see the need. I wasn't core to their business, even though it was important. In my opinion, it wasn't core to a lot of people in the organization. Whereas in the new role, the conversations we're having and potential clients we're gonna be working with, and it's still early days, I can just tell that the tone's different. And the interest in how we can work together and build on–how I can build on what they do, how they can use my skills. It just feels like a lot more of a better fit. You dunno, until you're in there. But I also spoke to a lot of people about the culture and the leaders in the business, I spoke to a number of times, and it was just really evident that culture is such a high priority in this new organization, which I think is what…
• 27:29
  Scott Anthony Barlow: What led you to realize that culture is, in fact, a high priority? What did you do or what… how did the conversations work so that you could get to the point where you then realized that, “Yes, this aligns with what I'm looking for for culture too.”?
• 27:45
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah. I think it's whether you can be yourself and be authentic in the culture is, I realize, is really important to me. I spent a lot of time being very formal in prior roles and speaking in a kind of jargon language because that's often what's accepted and what people expect, and you sound professional, whereas I realized that it took away a lot of the playfulness. It made me feel a lot more of like a very serious person, which is actually not good for the client or for what I do, or for life in general. You wanna be able to be yourself. So I feel in this new organization, I can really be myself and be authentic. And even in the conversations and I was talking about role definition, I could say exactly what I like and don't like and we could be honest about, okay, but you're gonna have to do these parts of the role because, you know, you can't do a hundred percent of what you like, but I could do 80% of what I like and that that conversation would've been more difficult in prior roles.
• 28:44
  Scott Anthony Barlow: When you think back over this entire process of making what we call an intentional career change, what advice would you give to somebody who is in your past situation, where it's, you know, it's not a bad situation by any stretch, but is just no longer a fit. What advice would you give to somebody who's right there, right now?
• 29:07
  Paul Ichilcik: Yeah. I think if you're in, again, it's a privileged position where you've, you know, you've had some experience and you're in a good organization, it's very easy just to stick with it. But the advice would be to challenge your assumptions. Challenge all of those lenses, which we put on from family, from personal expectations get embedded in our subconscious even. And the more we challenge them of, okay, what is actually things that I like and things that I'm just doing 'cause I should do them, the easier it gets to kind of work your way towards an environment to a role that is more aligned, never gonna be perfectly aligned, but is more aligned with where you wanna be. And it's easy not to challenge the assumptions and just to stick with the security and or money or something like that. But I think long-term life's too short to stick with it. And I know a lot of people they work eight hours a day, and then their life is outside of work. I'm not that kind of person where I could do that. I just wouldn't be able to. It needs to be a bit more integrated. So if that's the case for you, then I would say really challenge the assumption to make sure there's alignment.
• 30:10
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