Latest / UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing / How Setting Boundaries Boosts Lawyer Productivity and Client Satisfaction with Gary Miles
Transcript
- Gary Johnson: Today's guest is Gary Miles. Gary practiced law for 46 years, including federal court litigation, and spent more than 30 years as a managing partner. After decades of operating at the highest levels of the legal profession, he realized something many attorneys experience but rarely talk about openly, and that's this. The same qualities that create success. Can also create burnout, pressure, and a life that feels increasingly controlled by the practice you built. Gary is the creator of The Free Lawyer Framework, host of the Free Lawyer Podcast, which I hate to say this because I'm I think this is my 18th ⁓ episode, but he has more than 360 episodes. And he's also the author of the book. breaking free. And to add on top of all of that, he just released the Elite Lawyers Productivity System, which is a course where he bestows more of his wisdom to lawyers. He works with high-performing attorneys who want to sustain excellence without sacrificing their health, their freedom, their relationships, or their peace of mind. Gary basically knows his shit very, very well. So Today we're going to be talking about productivity. We're going to be talking about email overwhelm. We're going to be talking about responsive culture and the boundaries attorneys need if they want to stop feeling reactive all day while still performing at a high level. So you're probably asking, what does this have to do with marketing? It has everything to do with marketing. So listen to Gary's wisdom. Gary, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad to have you. Well, Gary, thank you. That was an incredibly gracious opening. I thank you very much. I'm really honored to be a guest on your podcast. I I'm honored that you're here. Take the world of you and what you do to help others build their business in a healthy and sustainable way. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And everything that I said about you though is true, even though we hate to talk about it because we're like, ⁓ But it's true. So let's get straight into this. What are the benefits of Being productive. And why did you start the elite lawyer's productivity system? Well, answer the second one first. I saw that so many lawyers felt overwhelmed, and you use the word sustainable. Their practices were not sustainable. They were cramming their family and their life into the gaps of their practice. And you would think, as one gets Towards the top, whatever the top is, partner, managing partner, lawyer at 15 years, it would get easier. Now we have people in the workforce, it gets it gets harder for a lot of reasons. Our email volume picks up. When you're a second year associate, you don't have many people that are demanding much from you. But if you're the manager of a department or you've been practicing 15 years, everybody wants your opinion. The clients, the associate, your paralegal, the management team. And of course, the clients, they want to hear from you. So I found that as lawyers progress, they begin to feel like they're in a prison that in some ways was of their own creation. I mean, that is a criticism because what I always say is it's built out of the best of us, not the worst of us. And so that's why I built the system because I actually, by the seat of my pants, helped a couple lawyers in an amazing way with it, amazing results. And I thought, wait a second, I should build this into a product. Into a service that others can utilize so enough lawyers can be exposed to it. And I worked with a firm in South Dakota and the managing partner bought into it, had me present it to the team, seven or eight billers. They went from hitting 70% of their billing targets, which meant there was no profit and we were scraping by to meet payroll, to hitting 110% of their targets. Well profit Now we can pay our staff a bonus for exceeding their targets. We can put more money in their health insurance, more money in the retirement plan. And finally we have some profit that we, the owners, could could make. So that's why I decided to build a course. That is so brilliant, too, because you see the results that other people are getting. You've also having such a long experience, you've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly, right? And so you're like, I want to be of service to these people. Like Have you always been that way? Because I hate to say this, but lawyers typically get a bad rap of it's all about them, them, them. They're just a bunch of arrogant a-holes. And usually you don't see attorneys like yourself going and being of service and helping other people out based on your wisdom, based on your experience, and based on what you've seen works and doesn't work. So how did you come across that? Like, is it always been in you or was this like a revelation? Well I've always liked telling other people what they oughta do. You know, it be with my family, managing partner. ⁓ everyone in my family what they ought to do and they listen, they'd have a better life. I was in a gym as a very young man and they gave me a shirt as a joke that said coach because I wanted to tell everybody else how they should work out. So it probably comes from a good spot. But yes, I've always enjoyed mentoring others, supporting others, encouraging others, both in my professional life and in my personal life, helping them Find a way to enjoy their life better. And I I completely changed my practice here. I used to do insurance defense work in the transportation arena. I'd represent truck drivers who got in bad accidents. And in my early 50s, I completely transformed my practice. I became a divorce lawyer because I really wanted to be of service to someone. And you can't change the outcome of a bad truck accident. Yeah. But if someone consults you about marital problems, you can help to create a better solution. For the client and the family. And I really enjoyed doing that. When I kind of was winding down on my active practice, I love the legal profession. And I realized since I became a lawyer in 78, it's gotten a lot harder in a lot of ways. We used to think email was a gift. I used to have to have my secretary type you a letter or a typewriter and put it in the mail and send it to you. We never knew when you got it. It was like, now we have email. I can send Gary an email. How easy is that? And now It's become the biggest thorn in our side. This gift became so Yeah. It's almost like the law of depreciating returns, right? Right, exactly. It goes great and then all of a sudden we abuse it, you know, which we're gonna talk about too. So, you know, so what would you say are the benefits about being productive? You know, it's not just about I used to work, get seven hours done, now I can get nine. It's really about creating space for what actually matters. To the lawyer, because if we spend our time just reacting to everyone else's agenda, the associate who pops ahead in with a question, the client who calls with a question, the emails that come in that we're answering serially one after another, we never really have space for what we're good at as a lawyer, which is thoughtful analysis, answering problems, creating pleadings or transactions. And when you work with intention rather than being reactive. You accomplish so much more of the kind of work that energizes us as lawyers. Answering emails is not energizing, but creating a really good document or pleading or argument is something we find professionally satisfying. So we get more done and at the same time we feel less depleted. And it's much more than simply surviving in this profession. It's about practicing law with purpose and intention. Yeah, I I ⁓ last year. I got a coach that helped me with productivity. And you don't realize the depth of how unproductive you are until you have a coach like you that just it's almost like exposes it. And they go, My gosh. And then and then when they go, Okay, but I need a roadmap. I need a framework to be able to work on this. And then once you get that, they go, Holy cow, I'm not going to be wasting my time. And like you had said. It creates the space so that you can work on the stuff that matters because that also creates energy. You get more of that done, which means more energy. Then at the end of the day, you don't feel depleted like, God, I want to kill myself, or I just need to have something to quail this alcohol, drugs, other crap that we do, you know, to mask that. And it's like it creates this wonderful life. And guess what happens? You're a better spouse, you're a better ⁓ wife or a ⁓ better mom or better father, you're a better person, you're a better friend. Everything just opens up, right? And I I bet you see that all the time with your clients that says that's gotta be so fulfilling to watch that transformation for them. It really is. I have one client who when I started working with them, I said on scale one to ten, what is your stress level? And he said a hundred, which on a scale one to ten is pretty high. And He said, I feel like a human punching bag. And after we worked together for a couple months, I said, What's your stress level now? Scale one to ten. He said, A three. He says, I want to be a lawyer again. I want to be a lawyer again. And ⁓ he's a great dad to his his son, and he has more warmth and happiness to him, more peace from what I saw in the beginning. When you feel like a human punching bag and your stress all is that high, you're not a very happy person. And and we take that. We take that home with us. So when we can feel more energized, more fulfilled, more productive in a purposeful way, that carries over to everyone in our world, not just our clients. Yeah. And here's the marketing aspect of that is that when somebody feels better, when somebody is more confident, when somebody has that energy about them, they market themselves better. They are not filled with fear. They're filled with opportunity. What is this going to do? How is this going to impact other people? This is going to be fantastic. And that all translates over that if you take care of this and you take care of your body and your and your ⁓ heart, holy cow. And it starts with, I think, productivity. And what are you doing? What are you not doing that really infiltrates the sucker in a bad way? You know? So You had done a poll the other day that blew my mind away. ⁓ when I saw it, I was like, what the like the results of that poll blew my mind away. Can you talk about that? Because I thought it was very powerful. I do a weekly poll, so I assume it's the one about emails. Yes. Yes. So I I asked. So so where I come from now with this is that the worst thing we could do first thing in the morning is look at our email. Why? Because we look at one email, we answer it. We got another one. And then we got that email from that attorney who's so nasty to us. And all of a sudden we're in a bad mental place. And then the phone starts ringing. Then and then the whole day ends. We've done nothing that we can point to. And so I did this poll. There were, I don't remember, between 100 and 200 lawyers answered it. And there were a number of questions. The question was, What do you do first in the day? One was answer emails, one was look at my inbox. The other is what presents itself to me. And 4% said the most important thing. And out of a hundred lawyers, only four do the most important thing first by their own admission, not by me criticized. By their own admission, only 4% do the most important thing worse. And if you asked, if you gave lawyers 10 items to pick from, they said, What's the most important thing you in your practice? No one would say answering emails. That would be 10%. Right. But yet that's that's become the habit. And it was my habit. Not always my habit to do it first, but it it was like an addiction or obsession. Or a way to avoid doing the real work. In that I'd have that up on one screen, my email up on the other, and I'd be glancing over it every 45 second. ⁓ it's something new. I better answer that. And and so ⁓ it comes from a place of being responsive, dedicated, committed. It comes from that sense. If I get something from my client, I will get on there to answer it. But it's very, very disruptive. Because every time we're working on something, and then we go to answer that email, okay, maybe that takes four or five minutes to read it, answer the email. But then we have to figure out where was I? What was I thinking? What was the organizer going to make? Where what exhibits was I and we lose three times that in getting back to where we were. Yeah, it's I mean, there's been all sorts of studies about that because I remember, and this is probably twenty years ago, ⁓ the CEO of the company that I was working with did not allow an open door policy. And you think, what a jerk. And he was like, It has nothing to do with being nice or not nice or being, you know, he's like, It's all about productivity. And when somebody comes into your door, you have to stop because you already told them I have, you know, I have an open door policy. And that stopping, and at that time, ⁓ if I remember correctly, it was eight minutes to get back to what you are doing on a productive level as opposed to when you're in flow and you just go, it takes you less time to get more done and and you can still be, you know, still be there for your employees. You just have to be intentional, right? So Well the other whole other thing is kind of interesting. I I recommend that my clients have focused time where they're doing work. Several blocks during the day. And during that time they don't get interrupted, barring a crisis. And the and the door closed is a signal to the world, and people are are trained in the office to know that means you don't interrupt me unless it's emergency. But I don't believe in having the door closed all the time because then, well, can I ever talk to Gary? His door is open. Yeah. Right. Right. Finish that block of time, we let people know I'm available for questions or answering emails or returning calls. And my door then is open. And that's an invitation for you that now's a a good time for you to come in and ask that question you've been holding for two hours while I was working. Yeah. And that I that's such a better way. Such a better way, you know, as opposed to be gone, you know, and be out because your employees, you're right, need to know that. You're available to them, especially like a managing partner or a high level partner, because everybody wants their wisdom. Like you had said at the beginning, you're you're pulled in so many different ways. And the reason why is because people value your wisdom and they're like, hey, Gary, what did you do on this? Hey, Gary, how about this? What do you think of this? Do you think I'm going in the right direction? Is this the right strategy? And you want to be available for them. But I think that the brilliance of what you just said was you have focused time that's blocked. It's blocked in your calendar. Ever and everybody knows about that. And anybody who's listening to that, if you implement that, you will get more done in that blocked time than you can even imagine. I mean, even imagine. That is brilliant. Because one of the things that I hear a lot from my clients is as we start working together. They start bringing in a lot more business. And as they bring in a lot more business, what happens? They're like, ⁓ my God, I'm taxed on my time. And therefore they go, so I don't do any marketing. And I and then my business goes down and I gotta crank the marketing machine up and then it goes up and then it goes down and then it goes up and it's just constant. But if you put these little things into play, like the focus time, like not starting your day with your email. You know, and really adhering to that habit, because that's really a habit. And letting people know, like you had said, that's a brilliant way to get more done so that you can still grow your practice, you can still bring in the money. And at the same time, you can take your business from 70, which I think a lot of bus a lot of law firms are like in the 50s and 60s, to a hundred and ten and and even more after that. Yeah. Which is which is great. What would you say is one of the ⁓ biggest reasons for not having good boundaries? So again, I think it like I say it comes from the best of us, not the worst of us. The best of us is dedicated, committed, responsive. If my client calls me, I'm gonna answer the phone. And we train our clients to think that we are always available for them. We train them because every time they send us an email or call us, we answer the phone. So we must be just sitting around waiting for their interruption. And if we don't answer the phone, they're like, what's wrong? Gary didn't take my call. Yeah. So as young attorneys, where our work history isn't we haven't been that accomplished yet. We haven't won big trials or settled big deals. We'll do anything to please our clients. But as we move along, our most important work isn't answering an email. Our most important work is that high value, high level work. an attorney with 15 or 20 years of experience can produce, what really has built their record, built their reputation. So when we answer that email or take that call, we think we're being dedicated and responsive. What we're really doing is contributing to our own burnout, our own lack of productivity. If you if your doctor is your surgeon and you call him at 10 a.m when he's in surgery, you don't expect him to answer the phone call. You know, you love that. You know that he'll get back to you. Where his office will sometime that day and answer a question. You might be having it something, it might be not a nine eleven number, but some important medical he will get back to you. But you don't expect him to take your call all the time. And I work for a judge and I saw judges get the same respect. People don't expect an immediate response from chambers. They know they're they're busy. But we're really disrespectful to ourselves when we don't set those boundaries with clients. So I have my clients, I prepare a kind of a Introduction to our communication with clients. And it sets says things like, You will hear back from me that day, but I will seldom be available, you know, when you call or when you email, that I have blocks of time where I focus on the work of your file and others so I could be more productive, more efficient, get a better job done in less time so you pay less for better work product, but know that I will get back to you. And clients are like, Thank you. That sounds great, huh? They never they don't mind, they don't think like that's ridiculous. I call you a ten and you don't answer the phone. They're like, I don't care as long as I hear back from you. And then when they do do hear back from you regularly on time, during the day, or within twenty four hours, they don't mind at all. And it really, really works. And then so this lawyer who felt like a human punching bag, we did three things with him primarily. He's a plain's personal injury attorney, so he doesn't bill. So there's no issue about timekeeping. But he felt so overwhelmed by answering emails and texts and angry clients. So we had him do three things. When he left the office at the end of the day, he planned exactly what he was going to work on in the next morning, the big file. When he walked in, he knew exactly what he was going to do. He had already decided. He was not going to look at his email for the first two hours. He's going work on that project. Then he was going to take client calls and emails in Windows during the day at 10 30, 11 30, 2 30, 3 30. He said, now I feel free. I feel like I enjoy being a lawyer again just by those three steps. It's so brilliant too. And it's so like it's simple. Simple. But it's not easy to do. Right. Because we're in this, we have this mental thing of what we've trained our brain, especially as new associates, right? Because you had said they are trained that they're like, okay, I gotta be on Johnny on the spot. But it's also with The partners of the firm because you want to impress them, right? You want to be there for them. So what do you say to, let's say, an associate and even to a partner when partners are sending out text at 10, 11 o'clock at night, and the associate thinks that I have to be Johnny on the spot. I have to answer that text. Otherwise, I'm going to get a tongue lashing tomorrow, the fear of disappointing our boss. What do you say with that? That dynamic for both of those individuals. Yeah. So I I call it the sort of unwritten training policy that the managing partner says, look, you don't have to work at nights here. Nights are your time for your family, et cetera, et cetera. But then he sends out an email at 9 30 p.m. And that sends a different message. That sends, I'm work working at nine thirty at night. And unless he says something different, the associate thinks, Wow, this is important to the policy, just sent to me. I better answer it now. So I would say to the managing partner, schedule that email for 8 30 in the morning. Leave it as a draft. Or if you can schedule your email, schedule for 8 30 in the morning. Or if you have to send it out, say, this was on my mind, so I'm saying that, but please don't worry about it tonight. Look at it tomorrow. Or get me an answer by Thursday or something of that nature. ⁓ for the associates a little bit, it's a little bit tougher because that managing partner, I don't know who it is, what the person's personality is. Some are easier than others. But I would say, look, I need to have certain boundaries around my life. If you let me know when you want something done by I will work on getting it done. If I can't, I will tell you. But I try to keep my evenings free from my family unless it's a crisis or an emergency, they can't wait until tomorrow. And hopefully the managing partner can can accept that and see it. If it goes on too long, then that person may decide this isn't the lifestyle I want. And that's okay. That's okay. And I had heard you say this before, I think I did, a long time ago, where you also said when the associate tells the partner, I will be able to get done more for you during those hours, as opposed to leaking into the off hours as well. So there's a benefit to the partner. Right. So that they then understand instead of I'm the boss, you do whatever I say, and then they go, but this is hurting the productivity of my associate. Right. I ⁓ had a chance to present this con these concepts in North Carolina Association of Women Lawyers and I asked for questions afterwards and three or four aunts shot up and said, Okay, that sounds great. But what about the partner when he comes in and says, I need that? Right. Right. What do I tell him? And what I've said is this, I'd sit down with them, and I've told my clients or in that I have clients in that boat. And I say, sit down with a partner and say, look, you want me to get more work done. You want me to get my billable hours up. You want me to get my work done faster and better. And this is the system I'm going to be using to do that. That from 8 30 till 10 30, I use as focus blocks of work. And I I don't plan on answering Teams messages then. I don't plan on answering emails or phone calls. And I'll answer them all at 10 30. And what I found from doing that is I get more work done, my billable hours go up, I'm more productive, I'm more efficient, and better quality work. All of which I think we share the same interest in. But every time if I interrupt what I'm doing to answer a question for you, I find I can make mistakes or at least takes me a lot longer to get my work done. Would that system work with you? And all I'd ask that you do is no, if you send me an email at 10, I won't look at it until 10 30. Yeah. Who in their right mind could say, no, you can't do your work in a more efficient way? So the answer should be obvious. But if if the partner can't abide by it, then then I would say that's data for the associate to have. Yep. Yep. Okay. So what about creating boundaries for your clients? Like how do you create boundaries for your clients? It's something we've sort of talked about a little bit before, but I would let them know on engagement that this is how I work. And and I will get back to you within 24 hours, but probably within the same business day, but perhaps not right away. Unless it's an absolute crisis and I urge them in whatever their field to do to identify what qualifies as a crisis. And there aren't really very many. What seems important to a client may be important, but not a crisis. And then when you are, when you work this way, you actually have time to return those calls. So many lawyers don't return the calls because they're so inefficient, unproductive, overwhelmed, so reactive. But when you do this, you actually have time to return calls. And you return them one after another, it's so much more efficient. And the you get back to the clients. The clients could be like, that's just fine. I I urge telling the client in advance. We don't accept texts, don't text me with questions, don't text me with confidential information. Because it's a matter of confidentiality, I can't integrate those texts with our case management system. ⁓ and then because some people get into giving out their cell number and then clients will have some of their mind at nine PM and they send you a text. And I urge discouraging that from the very, very beginning. Yeah, especially divorce attorneys, right? Because your emotions are on high. ⁓ you've got a lot of fear that's out there. You got a lot of doubt out that's out there because your marriage has crumbled and they're like midnight, they're up and going, Gary, I need to know what is the plan for next month. And I need you to call me right now. And it's like you need a therapist or then an attorney. But at the same time, unfortunately in that arena, there are crises that do require that. Sure, sure. So there's a protective order, but the husband's banging on the front door. And I'm scared. What do I do? Well, that's something that would qualify as a crisis. I want you to call me or text me about. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's okay. So what would you advise a listener who already has their clients that abuse it? That they they they call at 10 o'clock on a Sunday because they've answered them before. They've actually trained the client that that's okay, right? How would you what would you recommend for them to say, hey, we're now gonna do things a little bit differently because you're kind of changing the expectations on the fly, right? Well is there a way to do that? It it certainly is possible. It is ⁓ harder because the habit that we've created. I I guess I use analogy if you had a dog and you didn't train him for the first three or four years, ⁓ It'd be harder to then train the dog of the proper behaviors. And it's harder to retrain the clients as well. But I would say because of these stresses and inefficiencies we've discovered in our practice, we're coming up with a new system. And trust me, it'll work, it'll work for you because you'll have my attention. I will be fully responsive. I'll be more productive. You'll get better representation. So this is what we're doing. And I'd have a document that I'd created for a couple of my clients in that exact boat that we send out to clients. And they say if you have an issue with this, let us know what it is. We'll we'll try to come up with a solution. Clients haven't really complained. Still need a little bit of retraining. Sometimes I'll have the legal assistant return calls initially to the client if the legal assistant's familiar with the case. And their question just is when is this scheduled for or something like that? Yeah. But then they'll call the attorney and I and I just have the legal assistant call because sometimes lawyers are answering questions that they don't need to answer, that don't call for their analysis intelligence experience. It's it might be a fact question about the file that the legal assistant or paralegal can answer. So it is a matter of retraining, but trust me, it really works because clients want the lowest bill and the best quality of work, and this leads to both. Amazing. That's brilliant. Did I tell you guys that this is going to be a good one? So I got one last question for you. It's kind of a little bit off the wall, but not not totally. What's the difference between track practicing from fear versus practicing from authentic strength? Yeah, it and and so many of us, so many of us practice from fear. And and I know that, you know, I know that I did. I at one point, I I think I mentioned I did truck insurance work and representing Trucking companies and truck drivers, it's tough. We don't win, you know, it's hard to win. We've already hit somebody and no one is in favor of the big bad truck instead of the injured person. But I was blessed to win 12 cases in a row. And you'd think I'd be full confidence from that. I was still full of fear. What will the next case? What will the next case mean when I lose it? And all through our lives as attorneys, we've gotten our sense of accomplishment. From things outside ourselves, making law review, coming in the top 10%, getting our first job, making partner, getting a new client, winning a case. And those things are fleeting because you win some, you lose some. You get some clients, you lose some clients. You know, sports teams, you win some games, you lose some games. But if a team has won 10 games in a row and loses one, they don't mind their 10 and one. But as lawyers, all of a sudden, we feel because we lost that trial, we're a failure. Or because we lost that client, we're a loser and we're not. So I work with my clients to develop their confidence from things inside themselves, their dedication, their commitment, their effort. Sometimes we do a really good job and the client isn't happy. We do a really great job and we lose the case. Two great lawyers trying a good case, one of them's gonna lose. And that happens. So if I've done a good job, if I've dedicated myself to my client, if I've worked hard and I get criticism from a partner. It's not my fault. It's a difficult part. So when they shift from some external circumstance that we have no power over, we have no control over things outside ourselves to our own inner sense of accomplishment and commitment. And sometimes we fail in that. Sometimes we miss something. Sometimes we drop the ball. Okay. Well, then we got to do better. But when we've done all those things well and things don't work out right, then that's okay. That's just life. You win some and you lose some. And it is very freeing. And when I made that transition as a trial lawyer, I was so much better. Because when you live in fear of the result, I played a lot of golf. And when I live being afraid that I'm going to hit the ball into the lake in front of the green. Yes, instead of one to the green, I'm more likely to hit it into the lake. But when I just focus on the swing, what I can control is all the swing. And maybe I think about the pin instead of the lake. I'm more likely to hit the ball on the green. And I found when I no longer cared about the results of my trials, I was a much better traveler. Because I knew winning and losing didn't change who I was or how I did. And it really was very freeing and very it created so much more satisfaction and freedom in my practice. So brilliant. And this is the reason why I wanted to end with that, because I knew you were going to give a brilliant answer because because what you're talking about is you know, that internal confidence and and this translates over to business development and marketing because a lot of attorneys don't want rejection. Right. They're like, ⁓ my God, I don't, but that's the same thing as losing a case, you know, and and we're we're always that internal, like, ⁓ my God, if this person says no to me, I'm worthless. I'm not anything. And it's like, no, it's not the right time. You might not be the right fit. They the the problem might have gone away. There's so many external things that affect that, but we so like hold on to that. So therefore we don't do anything. And then that creates less business, which then creates more fear, more anxiety. Right. And it builds brilliant. And not only that, when we're so afraid of when I'm afraid of not getting your business, I'm not myself. I'm not relaxed. I'm not comfortable. And you see that even if you don't see it literally, you sense it. You sense my fear, my insecurity, my lack of belief. And it it colors how you evaluate me. So when when we approach someone out of a sense of fear or worry or anxiety or the outcome, it doesn't work. But when we handle business development from a sense of, you know, I'm a good lawyer and and I'm gonna enjoy speaking to Gary and learning out what his needs are and see. How I can be of service to him. We come from a much better place. Much better place. Yeah. ⁓ my God. Gary, this has been fantastic. I've enjoyed it. I knew it was going to be good, but it was actually better than I thought. So thank you. And anybody who's listening to this is like, ⁓ my God, I need more. Because let me tell you, we're just scratching the surface with Gary's wisdom. He's got the elite lawyers productivity system, which we're going to put a link in the notes. We're going to put all of his contact information. If you want group co or ⁓ individual coaching, reach out to him. You know what you're going to experience with him. You've seen it. He's the real deal, not just on this, all of the time. Reach out to him. Find out if he can help you out because it it's so important that we are taking away this overwhelm so that we can really come from a better place so we can create a space on what matters instead of. Creating one from fear. We can create energy and really get more done in a short amount of time. And it's just brilliant. So reach out to Gary. He is a gem. Like, thank you, thank you, thank you, Gary, for being on here. Well, well, thank you for the opportunity. And thank you for all you do to help lawyers build their practice and and to be more successful because it's a tough field and you help them. handle that such important aspect with grace and confidence and success. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. That was very kind. So all right. Well, see you on the next one then. Thank you.