Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / SHOCKING AUTOPSY: Who or What Killed Noah Presgrove

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SHOCKING AUTOPSY: Who or What Killed Noah Presgrove · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. When you're a kid
0:19
Speaker 1: and you're growing up out in the heartland, rural areas,
0:25
Speaker 1: you know what you spend most of the time doing,
0:28
Speaker 1: other than probably working on property that your parents have.
0:32
Speaker 1: You go to school, there's no city really to go
0:36
Speaker 1: into and hang out at. You rely heavily on your
0:40
Speaker 1: friends for entertainment. You entertain one another, actually, and those
0:43
Speaker 1: forms of entertainment can involve any number of things. Sitting
0:47
Speaker 1: around a bonfire, having a few beers even under a age,
0:50
Speaker 1: riding around in the back of your buddy's pickup truck,
0:53
Speaker 1: just going to spontaneous parties at someone's home. But you know,
0:57
Speaker 1: even with all that going on on, you still there's
1:01
Speaker 1: a level of safety and familiarity you have with that
1:05
Speaker 1: location that you grow up in. Today, we're going to
1:10
Speaker 1: discuss a death that I guess now has been under
1:14
Speaker 1: investigation for near about a year. It's a death that
1:17
Speaker 1: occurred out in rural Oklahoma. It's a death involving a
1:22
Speaker 1: young man who was found his body was found broken
1:27
Speaker 1: and bleeding on the side of a road, wearing shoes
1:32
Speaker 1: and nothing else but the shoes that he was wearing
1:35
Speaker 1: didn't match. As a matter of fact, one of the
1:37
Speaker 1: shoes belong to someone else. Today we're going to talk
1:41
Speaker 1: about the death an autopsy of no oppress Grove. I'm
1:47
Speaker 1: josephcott Morgan and this is body Bags Dave. We got
1:54
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of rural Now.
1:56
Speaker 2: We live in a rural area. I'm not that dissimilar
1:59
Speaker 2: from Oklahoma where Noah press Grove grew up. He's nineteen,
2:03
Speaker 2: graduated from high school, and he's at an end of
2:05
Speaker 2: summer labor day, twenty second birthday party all rolled into
2:09
Speaker 2: one on this weekend. The reason we're talking about Noah
2:12
Speaker 2: press Groves death is because his autopsy has come out.
2:15
Speaker 2: Police are still on investigating this as if it's a murder,
2:19
Speaker 2: and yet it doesn't fit into a hit and run,
2:23
Speaker 2: and the best that police can come up with is
2:25
Speaker 2: that maybe he fell out of the back of a truck.
2:28
Speaker 2: The injuries don't match that either. So today we're going
2:32
Speaker 2: to talk about the death and the autopsy of nineteen
2:36
Speaker 2: year old Noah press Grove. But before we do that,
2:39
Speaker 2: I want to say a very quick hello and thank
2:42
Speaker 2: you to Jennifer Williamson Ward. She is a friend of
2:46
Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, and she sent a message to us about
2:51
Speaker 2: this story, and Jennifer, I have to tell you I
2:54
Speaker 2: mentioned it to Joe and in the world that we
2:57
Speaker 2: live in terms of on the air radio and TV
3:00
Speaker 2: and what have you and podcasting, this is a story
3:03
Speaker 2: that Joe has covered extensively from Court, TV to Nancy.
3:08
Speaker 1: To News Nation.
3:09
Speaker 2: I'm sure. I mean there's a crime related show, they
3:13
Speaker 2: asked Joe, especially when it deals with something along the
3:16
Speaker 2: lines of what we're getting ready to talk about, and
3:18
Speaker 2: that is the death of a nineteen year old man who,
3:21
Speaker 2: by the way, I've never seen a laundry list of
3:24
Speaker 2: injuries so severe when there was not a murder investigation.
3:30
Speaker 1: That's the thing, isn't it. You know, Because the injuries
3:33
Speaker 1: are so extensive that he was presenting with at autopsy,
3:40
Speaker 1: I would imagine that the pathologist that's doing the examination
3:47
Speaker 1: is scratching their head and they're thinking, well, where do
3:50
Speaker 1: I begin, you know, because when they would have gotten
3:54
Speaker 1: this young man's body, there would have been some external manifestations,
3:58
Speaker 1: as we know that there were or relative to injuries
4:01
Speaker 1: that could be evidenced externally. But you know, when I
4:05
Speaker 1: can almost see because I've had to look on my face.
4:08
Speaker 1: I can almost see the look on everyone's faces when
4:11
Speaker 1: they started doing post mortem X rays on this kid's body,
4:14
Speaker 1: and it would have been so glaringly obvious the trauma
4:19
Speaker 1: that this kid sustained. Whenever you have a case like
4:22
Speaker 1: this day, where you've got so much trauma, it's important
4:25
Speaker 1: and it's almost like a game plan. You know, if
4:28
Speaker 1: you go into a game, a big game, there's so
4:30
Speaker 1: many moving parts. You need to have enough data on
4:33
Speaker 1: your side to understand what you're going to do. Because
4:37
Speaker 1: if you just go into a case like this randomly
4:41
Speaker 1: without doing any kind of pre investigation or a pre
4:46
Speaker 1: examination of the body, an external examination which includes X rays,
4:50
Speaker 1: you bump around in the dark and you're going to
4:52
Speaker 1: miss something. So if you can go in with this
4:55
Speaker 1: idea of Okay, this is what the radiographs are showing me,
5:00
Speaker 1: this is the information that has come in from law
5:05
Speaker 1: enforcement that we're at the scene, this is information that
5:08
Speaker 1: they have gotten through interviews. You need to be armed
5:11
Speaker 1: with this because Dave, this is so complex, it's so intertwined,
5:15
Speaker 1: and you don't know where where one group of injuries
5:20
Speaker 1: stops and the other one starts, and the big thing
5:23
Speaker 1: here is sequencing. How did all of this occur? Because
5:26
Speaker 1: there's so much here.
5:28
Speaker 2: So when a situation arises like this, in this particular case,
5:33
Speaker 2: where there had been a party taking place over a
5:35
Speaker 2: weekend and Noah's body is found at five point fifty
5:40
Speaker 2: three am on September the fourth, now we're dealing with
5:44
Speaker 2: last September. His body was found on the side of
5:47
Speaker 2: the road. He was curled up in the fetal position,
5:50
Speaker 2: naked except for as you mentioned, the mixed match shoes.
5:53
Speaker 2: One was not even his Passing truck drivers saw him
5:57
Speaker 2: and reported it called nine to one one. Now, Noah
6:01
Speaker 2: has a brother that had heard I don't know how okay,
6:05
Speaker 2: but there was a lot of you know, calls are
6:08
Speaker 2: being made early on.
6:09
Speaker 1: Of course at truck it's a small town and news travels.
6:12
Speaker 2: Course, he knew something had happened, that Noah was whatever,
6:15
Speaker 2: and he goes to the scene. Now, by the time
6:17
Speaker 2: his brother gets there, Noah's body has already been covered.
6:21
Speaker 2: But he said he could recognize Noah from the shape
6:25
Speaker 2: of his body, you know, on the ground. He was
6:28
Speaker 2: in the fetal position, and the blood had soaked through
6:32
Speaker 2: the sheet that they had covering him, and just so
6:36
Speaker 2: you know that that would be the sheet whatever laying
6:40
Speaker 2: on top of his body, on top of some area
6:43
Speaker 2: that had blood, because if it was I tend to
6:46
Speaker 2: think of seeping as going down, not up. But his
6:50
Speaker 2: brother was talking about certain things that he saw at
6:54
Speaker 2: the scene, and I in coming to this blind because
6:59
Speaker 2: I didn't want any kind of preconceived notions as to
7:01
Speaker 2: what had taken placetcha and his brother said, I saw teeth, teeth,
7:07
Speaker 2: and I'm okay, he's finding teeth and a pair of
7:11
Speaker 2: shorts are folded near him. He's nude, he's in a
7:18
Speaker 2: fetal position. I find teeth near his body, his teeth
7:22
Speaker 2: and a pair of shorts folded near his body. So
7:27
Speaker 2: here we go, Joe. It's just before six in the morning.
7:30
Speaker 2: Police show up. They start doing the investigation. All right,
7:33
Speaker 2: he's been at a party during the course of the weekend.
7:35
Speaker 2: The injuries to this young man, we're going to have
7:38
Speaker 2: to go through them very carefully because they are so extensive. Yes,
7:46
Speaker 2: and I've never seen this in reporting these types of
7:49
Speaker 2: and we've reported plenty situations where there was a weekend party,
7:53
Speaker 2: a five breaks out, a couple of guys gang up
7:56
Speaker 2: on somebody, there are some bad tales to tell like
7:59
Speaker 2: that this is if this is one of those, there
8:03
Speaker 2: were probably ten different on their own fatal injuries to
8:11
Speaker 2: Noah Press Grove that you have had this.
8:16
Speaker 1: Yeah it was. And you know, before we step off
8:18
Speaker 1: into the world of the injuries, you got to talk
8:20
Speaker 1: about the scene. This is a rural, isolated area, and
8:24
Speaker 1: the one thing that sticks out to me first off,
8:27
Speaker 1: the comment of the brother. I've worked cases and it's
8:32
Speaker 1: well documented in all of the literature. You can see this.
8:35
Speaker 1: When you have motor vehicle accidents, there are people you
8:38
Speaker 1: know famously. Okay, let me start off here. There's always
8:41
Speaker 1: there's this precept that is always put forward that any
8:45
Speaker 1: time a pedestrian is struck by a vehicle, they're automatically
8:48
Speaker 1: knocked out of their shoes. I've had so many people
8:51
Speaker 1: tell me that over the years. It doesn't always happen.
8:55
Speaker 1: You know. It's it's kind of like you know, people
8:58
Speaker 1: talking about sue sides and the weapon being found away
9:02
Speaker 1: from the body, like the body is supposed to be
9:05
Speaker 1: holding the weapon every That doesn't happen every time, Just
9:09
Speaker 1: like people are not always knocked out of their shoes,
9:12
Speaker 1: that doesn't always happen. But I can tell you what
9:14
Speaker 1: does happen many times with clothing in particular? Is it
9:18
Speaker 1: clothing if you think about the spinning of the tires
9:22
Speaker 1: when a body is struck, a pedestrian is struck many times,
9:26
Speaker 1: if the body is captured beneath the undercarriage of the car,
9:30
Speaker 1: the clothing will be twisted and ripped off of the body. Dave,
9:34
Speaker 1: it's not what the brother said. He said, Noah's nude
9:39
Speaker 1: in a fetal position, and we'll get to the teeth
9:41
Speaker 1: in a second. But his undershorts were found on the
9:45
Speaker 1: road folded. Now, I don't know what had happened prior
9:52
Speaker 1: to Noah's brother arriving at the scene. But if I
9:55
Speaker 1: hear that somebody's underwear are folded, and I don't know
9:59
Speaker 1: how to validate. I don't know if the police have
10:03
Speaker 1: remarked about this and explained this, this thing that the
10:07
Speaker 1: brother was witnessing, how do undershorts wind up getting folded,
10:11
Speaker 1: Particularly if you're thinking, well, maybe the got ripped off
10:14
Speaker 1: in the accident, or whatever it is it happened. Because
10:16
Speaker 1: whatever happened involved a tremendous amount of impact, I don't
10:23
Speaker 1: I'll put it to this way. I've actually worked parachute
10:26
Speaker 1: failures where the parachute failed to deploy that have fewer
10:30
Speaker 1: fractures than this kid had. Wow, let that sink in
10:34
Speaker 1: just for a second. I mean, and that's and the
10:38
Speaker 1: reason is, it's pretty simple, is that when a body
10:43
Speaker 1: is impacted, it's not generally impacted on multiple locations with
10:53
Speaker 1: this amount of force to generate underlying fractures. Okay, I'll
10:56
Speaker 1: just kind of plainly say that. So that leaves us with,
11:01
Speaker 1: you know, a great, big, you know, kind of question
11:04
Speaker 1: mark here, wondering what was the generator, how did this happen?
11:08
Speaker 1: How did he wind up in this isolated area? And
11:12
Speaker 1: was there something more that may have occurred at a
11:16
Speaker 1: party that Noah attended, or did it occur as he
11:21
Speaker 1: was leaving the party and wound up at this location?
11:42
Speaker 1: Dave you ever heard that saying? It says, and it
11:45
Speaker 1: varies from time to tom nothing good happens after eleven PM,
11:49
Speaker 1: or nothing good happened after midnight. I know Noah was
11:55
Speaker 1: at a party and kind of in and out. The
11:58
Speaker 1: details are a little bit murky, a little, yeah, a
12:01
Speaker 1: little and I was being calm and so there was
12:08
Speaker 1: a party. We know that and it was a celebratory
12:11
Speaker 1: event and there were many young people there. Can you
12:17
Speaker 1: kind of run this top because Tom Tomming is everything
12:19
Speaker 1: in this case, Can you kind of break this down
12:21
Speaker 1: for us and give us an idea.
12:22
Speaker 2: The murky part of it is that there was social
12:25
Speaker 2: media being fed pictures and what have you of all
12:29
Speaker 2: of the partying that was going on. A girl turned
12:32
Speaker 2: twenty two, somebody that all grew up with. We hit
12:33
Speaker 2: this in the first segment about it being close knit.
12:36
Speaker 2: Everybody knows one another. When everybody knows one another, you
12:40
Speaker 2: have a tendency to have smoldering problems. You got an
12:45
Speaker 2: issue with somebody and maybe you're not tight with them.
12:48
Speaker 2: You're tight with these people, but now you're in together
12:50
Speaker 2: and I just don't like that guy. You know, never
12:53
Speaker 2: have hated him in third grade. You know he wiped
12:55
Speaker 2: a book around me or something.
12:57
Speaker 3: You know.
12:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it stays with you in a town like
12:59
Speaker 2: in an area like this. But this party was going on.
13:02
Speaker 2: It was a it was well first of all Labor
13:04
Speaker 2: Day weekend. It was a twenty second birthday party for
13:08
Speaker 2: a girl. It was an end of summer party for
13:11
Speaker 2: the adults. Most of these kids were out of high school.
13:15
Speaker 2: Noah had graduated a year previously, and he was looking
13:18
Speaker 2: at a future that included possibly joined the military. That's
13:21
Speaker 2: what he was considering. So they gathered together at this
13:24
Speaker 2: party over a weekend. Now, my first thought when I
13:27
Speaker 2: saw it was, this is one of those kind of
13:29
Speaker 2: keggers that you go to on a Friday night and
13:33
Speaker 2: you know, it kind of goes on all weekend.
13:34
Speaker 1: You party, you listen to music.
13:36
Speaker 2: The next day, you wake up whenever, and you know,
13:38
Speaker 2: pretty much go right back to it. But that's not
13:40
Speaker 2: what happened. It was a multi day event that took place.
13:45
Speaker 2: But the party of yours left, or at least Noah
13:47
Speaker 2: left and went home and cleaned himself up and then
13:50
Speaker 2: went back the next night. During the course of this
13:55
Speaker 2: weekend Labor Day weekend event, Noah did have a disc
14:00
Speaker 2: well back up. Noah and five other guys, six guys,
14:05
Speaker 2: rode this big ATV. It's referred to as a ranger vehicle,
14:10
Speaker 2: an ATV ranger vehicle. Noah and five other people are
14:16
Speaker 2: on this ranger vehicle and they had an accident. It
14:20
Speaker 2: wasn't bumping into a car, it wasn't bumping into a pole.
14:23
Speaker 2: It wasn't hitting a curb. It was a rollover incident.
14:28
Speaker 2: First of all, these ATV Ranger vehicles are not cheap.
14:32
Speaker 2: They are adult toys, yes, and it was an adult
14:37
Speaker 2: toy that got rolled over. The way they make it
14:40
Speaker 2: seem is that Noah might have been the driver of
14:43
Speaker 2: said vehicle. I don't know if that's the case, but
14:47
Speaker 2: one thing we do know is that it was bad
14:49
Speaker 2: enough that when he came up dead, that was the
14:54
Speaker 2: first thing people thought, Hey, he got hurt in this
14:57
Speaker 2: ATV accident.
14:58
Speaker 1: He did get hurt, but.
15:02
Speaker 2: Not bad enough that it required him to go to
15:05
Speaker 2: the hospital or anything. He was hurt, but he went
15:08
Speaker 2: back to the party.
15:10
Speaker 1: You know, Dave, when you have events, and you mentioned
15:13
Speaker 1: a rollover event, and these Ranger vehicles that come in
15:17
Speaker 1: a couple of different configuration you have two seater or
15:20
Speaker 1: four seater. They make this thing sound like it's like
15:22
Speaker 1: a four seater. They've got roll bars on them. So
15:24
Speaker 1: if the thing tips over and they're talking about rollover event,
15:30
Speaker 1: just because there's a rollover doesn't mean that you're not
15:33
Speaker 1: going to sustain injuries. And I have seen I have
15:36
Speaker 1: seen people, Dave, that have been involved in motor vehicle
15:40
Speaker 1: accidents where they get up and they are walking, talking,
15:46
Speaker 1: fully oriented to time and space, and eight hours later
15:51
Speaker 1: they die. And that's because something along the way was
15:55
Speaker 1: clipped internally, generally some type of smaller vessel, and it's
15:59
Speaker 1: a slow lead internally, and then all of a sudden,
16:01
Speaker 1: it's classic. What you begin to see is that suddenly
16:05
Speaker 1: they become very sleepy, speech becomes slurred, they become disoriented,
16:09
Speaker 1: and then the next thing you know, they're out cold
16:12
Speaker 1: on the ground and they've got this kind of it's
16:14
Speaker 1: almost like a death rattle they have because they're slipping
16:17
Speaker 1: off into a coma because they're losing blood and the
16:20
Speaker 1: oxygen level, the supply to the brain is dropping precipitously,
16:24
Speaker 1: and it's a horrible thing to witness. This does, in
16:27
Speaker 1: fact happen, So we can't completely discard that possibility that
16:33
Speaker 1: it's you know, we talk a lot about the totality
16:36
Speaker 1: of injuries that an individual sustains, that it might not
16:40
Speaker 1: be just singularly a one time event. It could be
16:44
Speaker 1: a combination of events, and I'm sure that that's what
16:47
Speaker 1: the pathologist was trying to consider in this, and I.
16:50
Speaker 2: Think it's important to note that it was about enough
16:53
Speaker 2: accident that it was brought up that he was not hurt,
16:56
Speaker 2: because it's the assumption that if you say, well, he
16:59
Speaker 2: wasn't hurt, he actually must have shown some injury, but
17:02
Speaker 2: not bad enough to quit. You're nineteen, you're tenpee telling
17:04
Speaker 2: bulletproof for crying out lot.
17:06
Speaker 1: Oh, oh my gosh. Yeah. And look, if you here's
17:09
Speaker 1: the thing, and this is kind of kind of cool. Scientifically,
17:12
Speaker 1: if you sustain let's say you sustain an injury, and
17:17
Speaker 1: maybe you don't think much of it at the time,
17:19
Speaker 1: it hurts upon initial impact. What your body begins to do,
17:26
Speaker 1: there's a trauma response in your body. So let's just
17:29
Speaker 1: say you have a broken rib, you get popped in aside,
17:33
Speaker 1: and you don't know that necessarily that this is some
17:38
Speaker 1: kind of fatal or lethal event, but yet it hurts.
17:42
Speaker 1: But it's something it's not something that you know is
17:45
Speaker 1: going to get you down your knees, all right. But
17:49
Speaker 1: what the trauma response in the body is is that,
17:52
Speaker 1: first off, it's going to hemorrhage, and secondly, it's going
17:55
Speaker 1: to swell. And we know for a fact that it's
18:00
Speaker 1: swelling or the echomosis that surrounds that damaged tissue, Dave.
18:05
Speaker 1: It takes a prescribed amount of time for that to happen.
18:08
Speaker 1: So when you're examining somebody in the morgue and you're
18:12
Speaker 1: looking for these injuries and trying to interpret them, one
18:15
Speaker 1: of things you're going to look for are these little
18:17
Speaker 1: breadcrumbs to say, Okay, you know what, this injury might
18:22
Speaker 1: be older than these other ones that occurred at the
18:25
Speaker 1: time of death. First off, if something occurred at the
18:28
Speaker 1: time of death, it's not going to be presenting with
18:32
Speaker 1: the amount of swelling. For instance, that something that had
18:35
Speaker 1: happened hours before or a day before may be experiencing
18:39
Speaker 1: it'll it'll look completely different. How do you make sense
18:42
Speaker 1: of all of this when you have, say, for instance,
18:46
Speaker 1: old injuries that are now potentially being coupled with new
18:50
Speaker 1: injuries that are discovered at autopsy. Maybe these things are
18:54
Speaker 1: even recognized out on the scene. How is it that
18:58
Speaker 1: you're able as a scientists to delineate between what is
19:03
Speaker 1: older and what is newer. Sometimes those answers are not
19:07
Speaker 1: as obvious as you might think that they are. I
19:28
Speaker 1: don't normally do this sort of thing on this podcast,
19:30
Speaker 1: but I got to tell you, I got to give
19:31
Speaker 1: you a word of warning. What we're going to talk
19:33
Speaker 1: about right now is even by bodyback Sanders is kind
19:36
Speaker 1: of graphic, but it has to be stated. And I'm
19:40
Speaker 1: going to try in my own little way to interpret
19:42
Speaker 1: and give you an idea of what might could generate
19:45
Speaker 1: these types of injuries. And in many cases there are
19:47
Speaker 1: multiple ways that these types of injuries can be generated.
19:51
Speaker 2: But you get the police theory that he was thrown
19:53
Speaker 2: out the back of a truck that was moving jail.
19:55
Speaker 2: I want you guys to pay attention to these injuries
19:58
Speaker 2: because you're not going to find if you were thrown
20:00
Speaker 2: out of the back of a truck, you're going to
20:01
Speaker 2: have road rash over your legs, You're going to have arms,
20:05
Speaker 2: You're going to have a lot of those type And
20:07
Speaker 2: I'm saying that because I've been thrown out of the
20:09
Speaker 2: back of the truck. I'm not by friends throwing me out.
20:11
Speaker 2: We actually were being stupid and I fell, and I
20:15
Speaker 2: know the injuries I had and we weren't. You know,
20:17
Speaker 2: they were all over and my legs took the brunt
20:19
Speaker 2: of it for the most part, these feet, ankles, what
20:22
Speaker 2: have you. And he does not have those types of
20:25
Speaker 2: injuries that actually match up to someone that was pitched
20:30
Speaker 2: out of the back of a truck. I'm just saying
20:32
Speaker 2: that because as we break these down, that's what I
20:34
Speaker 2: went into it thinking happened, and I went how did
20:37
Speaker 2: they even say that out loud? Take a look at
20:39
Speaker 2: this list, Joe, that you're going and I want you
20:42
Speaker 2: to explain just right off the bat, ten broken ribs.
20:47
Speaker 1: With ten broken ribs is really something that and you
20:53
Speaker 1: have to think about the orientation of these fractures. Are
20:56
Speaker 1: they all married up? Like on the horizontal plane they
21:00
Speaker 1: kind of match up as you go down the rib cage,
21:04
Speaker 1: you know, like when you're going down the fifth rib
21:07
Speaker 1: and the fifth rib, are they both concurrently fractured? And
21:11
Speaker 1: does it approximate the same anatomical location. If that's happening,
21:15
Speaker 1: then maybe you took a full on impact of a
21:19
Speaker 1: motor vehicle striking you in your chest and you're on
21:21
Speaker 1: your knees. Probability of that is very low because you
21:24
Speaker 1: would have other associated things that you would find with that.
21:27
Speaker 1: The other thing that you get with fractured ribs is
21:30
Speaker 1: something that folks may or may not have heard of before.
21:34
Speaker 1: It's called a flail chest. And what happens is is
21:38
Speaker 1: that when your ribs are fractured, they're almost free floating
21:43
Speaker 1: within your chest cavity, and you'll get multiple lung punctures,
21:46
Speaker 1: and your lungs and your plural spaces, which are the
21:51
Speaker 1: area around your lungs, begin to fill with blood. So
21:57
Speaker 1: you have that going on in and of itself with
22:01
Speaker 1: the ribs. And to get ten broken ribs, Dave, is
22:07
Speaker 1: something that I don't know that I don't know that
22:10
Speaker 1: you would get from a single event. You might get
22:14
Speaker 1: that from a single event, but there's not going to
22:16
Speaker 1: be this many other associated injuries. Just think about it.
22:21
Speaker 1: Just think about it. If you were a kid and
22:23
Speaker 1: you were in a tree house, okay, and you fell
22:26
Speaker 1: out of the treehouse, you're going to impact on one
22:30
Speaker 1: location on your body, maybe the back of your head,
22:33
Speaker 1: maybe your shoulder, maybe your hip. Maybe you're going to
22:36
Speaker 1: bend your knees under you, you know, Lord help you,
22:38
Speaker 1: and land on both of your knees from a height.
22:41
Speaker 1: But that's a single point of impact, Dave. We had
22:44
Speaker 1: stuff here that at least implies that they are like
22:48
Speaker 1: multiple impacts with a significant amount of force, because you're
22:52
Speaker 1: talking about underlying fractures, Dave.
22:55
Speaker 2: And that's fine. I said earlier that there are at
22:58
Speaker 2: least ten injuries that, on their own, with nothing else,
23:01
Speaker 2: could have been fatal. Go through the rest of this show.
23:04
Speaker 2: I'm going to sit hearing shut up because I really,
23:06
Speaker 2: for the life.
23:07
Speaker 1: Of it, I think I think the thing that.
23:11
Speaker 2: Is is frustrated by what the police have said.
23:13
Speaker 1: I it is frustrating. I think probably no way.
23:17
Speaker 2: This didn't have that happened by jump falling out of
23:19
Speaker 2: the back of a truck.
23:20
Speaker 1: That did not happen. Well, maybe if you fell out
23:22
Speaker 1: of the back of a truck multiple times, is what
23:25
Speaker 1: I think I'd like to say.
23:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me hop back up and try that again.
23:28
Speaker 2: I didn't break my leg this time.
23:30
Speaker 1: Come on, I know. And that's that's kind of you
23:32
Speaker 1: know what you're thinking about. And I know that they're
23:34
Speaker 1: thinking about this. The me is certainly thinking about this.
23:38
Speaker 1: Is it possible to generate and listen again, I go
23:42
Speaker 1: back to this idea that they've left the scene unclassified.
23:45
Speaker 1: You know, they have not classified it. And that's that's
23:48
Speaker 1: a big you know, that's a big piece to this
23:50
Speaker 1: because you know, the cops can say basically whatever they
23:56
Speaker 1: want to say about what they're seeing at the scene. However,
24:00
Speaker 1: if the me is not signing off on this thing
24:03
Speaker 1: with a particular classification, that gives me an indication that
24:07
Speaker 1: they're still wanting more information that they're scratching their heads over.
24:11
Speaker 1: I think probably the thing that jumps out the most
24:15
Speaker 1: is that, you know, they talked about this one central
24:18
Speaker 1: impact to the skull, which Dave I got to tell you.
24:22
Speaker 1: It sounds like, and it's a it's apparently a very
24:25
Speaker 1: very extensive injury, but it sounds like a single impact
24:30
Speaker 1: that is almost being described as a It seems to
24:34
Speaker 1: me is almost like a depressed skull fracture, which means
24:37
Speaker 1: that it's not the skull is not just simply fractured
24:41
Speaker 1: where you fracture like if you have a Bowld egg
24:44
Speaker 1: and you kind of crack it, you know, and it
24:46
Speaker 1: creates like this kind of curvelinear, you know, manifestation, whereas
24:49
Speaker 1: we're talking about if you take that egg and press
24:51
Speaker 1: it in, if you've ever done that with a bold egg,
24:54
Speaker 1: you press it in on the sides and it literally
24:56
Speaker 1: depresses and you have it's almost like a that it
25:00
Speaker 1: creates and it kind of spiderwebs out. That kind of
25:03
Speaker 1: sounds like what they're talking about that sounds like a
25:06
Speaker 1: depressed skull fracture. How do you get that? Well, I
25:09
Speaker 1: guess you could get it if you hit just right
25:12
Speaker 1: on the back of your head on the road. But
25:15
Speaker 1: you know, I've seen depressed skull fractures with baseball bats, hammers, pipes.
25:19
Speaker 1: I've seen people with depressed gull fractures that have been
25:22
Speaker 1: pistol whipped. I'm not saying any of that happened, but
25:27
Speaker 1: just that injury alone, that injury alone, just standing all
25:31
Speaker 1: by itself, is a lethal injury. Because dude, when they
25:37
Speaker 1: opened up his skull, there was a copious amount of
25:42
Speaker 1: blood that poured out of a cranial vault. What does
25:48
Speaker 1: that mean to you, Well, it means that you've got
25:50
Speaker 1: multiple vessels within the skull that are fractured. And if
25:54
Speaker 1: you like that one, I got one that's even worse.
25:56
Speaker 1: And this is something I have never mentioned on this
25:59
Speaker 1: pod cast. If you will put your fingers adjacent to
26:05
Speaker 1: your external ear canal on both sides, If you put
26:08
Speaker 1: your your index fingers on both sides, imagine drawing a
26:12
Speaker 1: line through the floor of your skull. Right there. Noah
26:15
Speaker 1: has got what sounds like a hinge fracture. And the
26:19
Speaker 1: hinge fracture literally involves going all the way across the
26:24
Speaker 1: floor of the skull internally, so that and these fractures
26:28
Speaker 1: are amazing. When you see them, you get an idea
26:32
Speaker 1: of how much force is involved when you remove the
26:35
Speaker 1: brain after you've taken the skull cap off where this
26:38
Speaker 1: other fracture would have been. When you remove the brain,
26:41
Speaker 1: that's where all this blood is coming from. You grab
26:44
Speaker 1: the top of the skull up by the forehead where
26:46
Speaker 1: you've made your incision, and the back of the skull.
26:49
Speaker 1: You can actually open the skull along the floor of
26:54
Speaker 1: the skull and it looks like a giant mouth like
26:57
Speaker 1: moving like this, and it goes all the way across
27:00
Speaker 1: many times, either anterior or right across the foreme and magnum,
27:05
Speaker 1: which is where your spinal cord dumps down into your
27:07
Speaker 1: spinal column. And I've seen it involved in both locations,
27:11
Speaker 1: and it's like this gaping maw that's in there, Dave,
27:15
Speaker 1: that created that you have to have so much force
27:19
Speaker 1: in order to generate that insult alone that it's it
27:25
Speaker 1: gives you pause. Okay, Hine. Fractures don't occur all the time,
27:31
Speaker 1: and when you see them, it's like, you know, if
27:33
Speaker 1: you're standing there with the forensic pathologists, they'll say, oh
27:36
Speaker 1: my god, we got a hinge fracture. You know, it's like, okay,
27:39
Speaker 1: you get the photography person over there. You're going to
27:41
Speaker 1: want to take a picture of this. Not that you
27:43
Speaker 1: wouldn't otherwise, but the pathologist is going to want like
27:47
Speaker 1: a tremendous number of photographs taken of this, because this
27:49
Speaker 1: is a significant finding. You look at that in and
27:52
Speaker 1: of itself, all of that head trauma is just absolutely amazing.
27:58
Speaker 1: Now he's got brained damage in a sense that it's
28:01
Speaker 1: traumatically related. So you'll have both in dwelling hemorrhage within
28:06
Speaker 1: the brain itself. There's external damage to the brain. There'll
28:10
Speaker 1: be a lot of blood, coagulated blood more than likely
28:15
Speaker 1: that is just resting on the surface of the brain
28:18
Speaker 1: and certainly within the dura sack, which if you think
28:22
Speaker 1: of the dura sac that encompasses the brain, it's almost
28:27
Speaker 1: like a placenta. A matter of fact, that it actually
28:29
Speaker 1: if you take the dura matter and laid alongside a placenta,
28:35
Speaker 1: it looks a lot like that. It's kind of a
28:37
Speaker 1: protective back that encases the brain itself. It's a wash
28:46
Speaker 1: and spinal fluid. It kind of lubricates the brain because
28:48
Speaker 1: you wouldn't want your brain just sitting inside your skull
28:51
Speaker 1: because the edges are so rough in there, and so
28:53
Speaker 1: the dura acts almost like a shock absorber for the brain,
28:57
Speaker 1: so you would have a tremendous amount of blood contained
29:01
Speaker 1: in there. There were four separate areas of trauma on
29:05
Speaker 1: the organ, the brain itself, and not to mention this trauma,
29:13
Speaker 1: we talk about cerebrospinal trauma. Okay, you hear doctors talk
29:18
Speaker 1: about this a lot. So his Noah's head and brain
29:23
Speaker 1: were not a skull and brain were not just impacted,
29:26
Speaker 1: but also his spinal cord. You get down to the
29:32
Speaker 1: sea one, you've got multiple cervical vertebra and the C
29:37
Speaker 1: one is what classically we refer to as the atlas.
29:42
Speaker 1: If you think about the Titan Atlas from Greek mythology,
29:46
Speaker 1: Atlas is that gigantic being that is holding up the earth.
29:51
Speaker 1: And the reason they called C one the atlas is
29:56
Speaker 1: because it is literally where the skull is resting, and
30:00
Speaker 1: it's supporting from a skeletal standpoint, it's supporting the skull
30:04
Speaker 1: that the C one Dave in this case is actually displaced. Okay,
30:08
Speaker 1: So it's been it's been knocked out for a lack
30:14
Speaker 1: of a better term in Layman's. In Layman's terms, it
30:17
Speaker 1: has been displaced. So it's kind of knocked knocked out
30:20
Speaker 1: of alignment. As a matter of fact, some have described
30:23
Speaker 1: this as a displacement that might be consistent with what
30:29
Speaker 1: you would see in a judicial hanging, which leads to death.
30:33
Speaker 1: So if you you know, when people talk about the
30:35
Speaker 1: snapping of a neck when they fallen from a height,
30:37
Speaker 1: the C one C two is what's impacted, and you
30:41
Speaker 1: know when people are are in judicial hangings, that's what
30:45
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. I'm not talking about anything self inflicted here.
30:48
Speaker 1: The goal was that that would fall from such a
30:51
Speaker 1: height that it would displace the C one and C two,
30:54
Speaker 1: which are a critical level in the spot that if
30:58
Speaker 1: those things are displaced in it's incompatible with life, okay,
31:01
Speaker 1: because it impacts those basic those basic functions that are
31:06
Speaker 1: required just for the autonomic nervous system to fire, you know,
31:11
Speaker 1: like keeping your heart beating and doing you know, respirations
31:14
Speaker 1: and all that other regulatory stuff. So that that has
31:18
Speaker 1: been impacted, for lack of a better term. Uh, we've
31:22
Speaker 1: got Uh. What they found was a skin on the
31:26
Speaker 1: left side of the scalp had been torn away, off
31:29
Speaker 1: of the brain, off the forgive me, off of the bone,
31:32
Speaker 1: So it means it's been ripped from the skull itself,
31:35
Speaker 1: which again is kind of a friction related type of event.
31:42
Speaker 1: You know, I guess you could say that somebody could
31:44
Speaker 1: have traumatized him individually, but most of the time you
31:47
Speaker 1: see something like that, that's the idea of the dynamic
31:50
Speaker 1: of somebody perhaps rolling down the road. Uh. And it's
31:54
Speaker 1: it's it's it goes from an abrasion to a tearing
31:57
Speaker 1: laceration where it's kind of rip ripped through. And as
32:01
Speaker 1: the police began to work the scene where Noah's found,
32:06
Speaker 1: it wasn't just teeth. You know that. We're out there
32:08
Speaker 1: at the scene and we'll get to that in just
32:10
Speaker 1: a second. But you know, Dave, they actually found a
32:12
Speaker 1: clump of hair and skin away from the body in
32:16
Speaker 1: the middle of the road, which means that's probably hair
32:21
Speaker 1: that is attached to a portion of the scalp that
32:23
Speaker 1: was torn away it was laying there. Again, that requires
32:26
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of force. You've got the buttock. The
32:33
Speaker 1: right buttock is traumatized. Here's another thing that you know,
32:39
Speaker 1: we talked about teeth, both upper and lower. So you're
32:44
Speaker 1: talking about your maxillary teeth, which are your upper teeth,
32:47
Speaker 1: and your mangellary teeth, which are embedded in your jaw.
32:50
Speaker 1: Your lower teeth they're broken and they're in fragments, and
32:54
Speaker 1: you've also got upper and lower teeth that are strewn
32:59
Speaker 1: across the roadway. Dave. You know when when people talk
33:03
Speaker 1: about having trauma to the mouth and they lose a tooth,
33:07
Speaker 1: what do they say. They generally don't say I got
33:10
Speaker 1: my teeth knocked out. They say I got a tooth
33:13
Speaker 1: knocked out. Right, Brother, he's got teeth that are fractured
33:19
Speaker 1: and missing, Okay, that are strewn about. Now we have
33:23
Speaker 1: to think that again, this could be a high velocity
33:26
Speaker 1: impact event where he may very well have fallen on
33:30
Speaker 1: the ground. But you know, my thought was, well, it
33:35
Speaker 1: obviously involves a head more than likely that depressed area
33:38
Speaker 1: in the skull that generated the initial injury. But now
33:41
Speaker 1: you've got teeth that are coming out of his head.
33:44
Speaker 3: Like a curb stomp. That's well, yeah, I don't know,
33:49
Speaker 3: But with fractured teeth. It's certainly I'd like to know.
33:52
Speaker 3: I think one of the things I'd be very interested
33:55
Speaker 3: in knowing, and I don't necessarily have this information. I
34:00
Speaker 3: would like to know what kind of trauma existed relative
34:06
Speaker 3: to the exterior of the mouth, like the lips and
34:10
Speaker 3: the jaw.
34:11
Speaker 2: Now, he did have a cut on his lip, and
34:13
Speaker 2: he had a cut on his tongue. But can I
34:17
Speaker 2: back up to something absolutely sure? Okay, you mentioned the
34:21
Speaker 2: clump of hair that was found in the middle of
34:23
Speaker 2: the highway. Well, there was a clump of hair that
34:28
Speaker 2: was observed on the right buttock without blood or tissue,
34:34
Speaker 2: and it was specific to that without blood or tissue. Yes,
34:41
Speaker 2: And it was different than the clump of hair that
34:44
Speaker 2: was found in the middle of the road. It was
34:45
Speaker 2: like this that he was tortured the hair and it
34:50
Speaker 2: was put there for a reason.
34:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And who's to know what the dynamic
34:55
Speaker 1: of this event is. He is nude, so how how
35:00
Speaker 1: with hair from the head? Presumably, And they don't specify
35:04
Speaker 1: what the nature of the hair is. I mean, it
35:06
Speaker 1: might be pubic hair, I guess, Yeah, could be hair
35:08
Speaker 1: off of his chest. I have no idea, but they
35:12
Speaker 1: do make a point of that where they're talking about
35:14
Speaker 1: a clump of hair. Clump of hair gives you an
35:19
Speaker 1: idea that something has been pulled loose right, that it
35:22
Speaker 1: has been taken out at the root perhaps or broken
35:25
Speaker 1: off superior to the root ball, and that this has
35:30
Speaker 1: been left behind. How does that hair? And I think
35:33
Speaker 1: a question I would ask as a forensics guy, I'd
35:36
Speaker 1: want to validate that hair. I'd want to know was
35:38
Speaker 1: it Noah's hair? First off? Was it human hair? Was
35:42
Speaker 1: it an animal? We're talking about it out in the
35:43
Speaker 1: wild and there's animal hair on the roadway, you know,
35:46
Speaker 1: I'd argue that, I'd say, well, how do we know
35:49
Speaker 1: the provenance of the hair? You know, what's point of origin?
35:52
Speaker 1: What species is it? Is it his? Does it? Does
35:56
Speaker 1: it look like his hair color? Is he missing hair
35:59
Speaker 1: that had been torn out?
36:01
Speaker 2: Other than the possibility animal could have done it.
36:04
Speaker 1: I don't know that. That's just it. And to this point,
36:07
Speaker 1: I don't see any evidence that an animal has been
36:09
Speaker 1: involved in this. I would just like to know the
36:12
Speaker 1: origin of it. You know, all we can do in
36:14
Speaker 1: forensics is document what we see there. It's hard to
36:18
Speaker 1: really extrapolate further than that, but it is it is
36:23
Speaker 1: certainly an interesting finding. I don't know that I've ever
36:27
Speaker 1: seen that kind of phraseology before that.
36:29
Speaker 2: I haven't, and I read these things all the time,
36:32
Speaker 2: and I have done stories where a hair was pulled out,
36:35
Speaker 2: you know, it just sounds like the most painful thing.
36:38
Speaker 2: Of course, on this list of things, I'm still beyond
36:43
Speaker 2: the pale Joe. But the he's bleeding out of his ears, Yes,
36:48
Speaker 2: got teeth thrown everywhere, And bleeding.
36:50
Speaker 1: Out of the ears is consistent with the hinge fracture,
36:52
Speaker 1: by the way, and you would probably also, yeah, and
36:54
Speaker 1: you'd probably if looking closely, you could probably see cerebral
36:58
Speaker 1: spinal fluid. You know how they when you're a kid,
37:01
Speaker 1: and if you take a first A class, they tell
37:03
Speaker 1: you to look for a clear fluid coming from the ears.
37:05
Speaker 1: That's that's what I'm talking about. So you'll get this
37:07
Speaker 1: kind of co mingled with a hinge fracture. You'll see
37:13
Speaker 1: kind of a commingled cerebral spinal fluid along with blood.
37:18
Speaker 1: And it's got kind of a straw color to it.
37:20
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, pathologists will describe it as
37:23
Speaker 1: having a straw like appearance, the color of straw, and
37:27
Speaker 1: it's tinged with blood, so that would come from from
37:30
Speaker 1: that area. And again that goes to something has happened
37:35
Speaker 1: that has compromised the structural integrity of the spinal column
37:39
Speaker 1: with this displacement. And brother, it wasn't just as C one.
37:42
Speaker 1: You know, I failed to mention that he's got a
37:45
Speaker 1: fractured C two, which obviously is just beneath the C
37:48
Speaker 1: one and C six. We're going down the column now.
37:52
Speaker 1: C six and C seven were also fractured to varying degrees.
37:57
Speaker 1: And there's multiple features on each one of these things.
37:59
Speaker 1: You've got these horns that are on it, and there's
38:02
Speaker 1: various anatomical features where it can be fractured. Again. You know,
38:07
Speaker 1: vertebral bodies, just in and of themselves are one of
38:10
Speaker 1: the most They are a very robust bone. And when
38:13
Speaker 1: I say that they're thick, they they're therefore I mean,
38:17
Speaker 1: think about what they're protecting, man, I mean, they're protecting
38:20
Speaker 1: your spinal column. It's just like the skull, particularly on
38:24
Speaker 1: the back, is very robust and thick. It's it is
38:27
Speaker 1: that way for a very specific reason. So you've defeated
38:34
Speaker 1: the impact has essentially defeated this naturally occurring structure within
38:39
Speaker 1: the body that is meant to take a tremendous amount
38:42
Speaker 1: of punishment. So how, you know, how does it account
38:46
Speaker 1: for all of these other insults that he has all
38:49
Speaker 1: over his body? And again, you know, look, I've got
38:53
Speaker 1: a state full disclosure here. You know, he's got what
38:56
Speaker 1: they're describing as grazes. There's abrasions, and you've got them
39:02
Speaker 1: on multiple, multiple surfaces, which many times are associated with
39:06
Speaker 1: rollover injuries. So if you've got scrapes and abrasions and
39:09
Speaker 1: they're kind of wrap what they call wrap around injuries,
39:13
Speaker 1: that's traditionally what you're looking for. So if the if
39:16
Speaker 1: the vehicle is spinning, the body will be spinning, okay,
39:18
Speaker 1: and you hit asphalt gravel, you're going to get this
39:22
Speaker 1: horrible dynamic that where you'll have these upbraided and they'll
39:25
Speaker 1: they'll be linear many times, and they'll cut a wide swath.
39:30
Speaker 1: You know, I'll never forget. I had a cousin of
39:32
Speaker 1: mine who was literally run over by a dump truck
39:38
Speaker 1: when he was working on a levy in Louisiana. He
39:40
Speaker 1: had the tire tracks across his Uh. He's got this
39:43
Speaker 1: great picture of tire tracks running across his chest. Uh.
39:47
Speaker 1: You can actually his tandem wheels and you can see it.
39:49
Speaker 1: And he survived, but he had all those and I
39:51
Speaker 1: remember it from when I was a little kid. We
39:53
Speaker 1: were amazed. I mean, we thank god that he survived.
39:55
Speaker 1: He wound up becoming a preacher, and yeah, it does.
40:00
Speaker 1: And you could see all that one. Yeah, you could
40:02
Speaker 1: see all these abrasions, and that's it was. The tire
40:05
Speaker 1: tread itself left an impression. But it's also braiding the
40:08
Speaker 1: skin as it's rolling over. You take that and you
40:11
Speaker 1: think about the dynamic of a body flying through the
40:13
Speaker 1: air and spinning makes contact with a rough surface like
40:16
Speaker 1: a roadway, You're going to get those same kind of rasions.
40:19
Speaker 2: Dave, Well, Joe, Now, there were other things that were
40:25
Speaker 2: on his body that they were able to determine that.
40:27
Speaker 2: We're in various stages of healing abrasions and scabs and
40:31
Speaker 2: what have you. But with have you ever seen have
40:38
Speaker 2: you ever seen anything like this where there wasn't some
40:42
Speaker 2: type of mechanical failure with a car, a boat being
40:45
Speaker 2: thrown from a building, of any number of things. This
40:48
Speaker 2: is ostensibly a kid, a nineteen year old young man
40:51
Speaker 2: leaves a party after an argument and is by himself
40:55
Speaker 2: and ends up with all these injuries. Police are saying
40:57
Speaker 2: they're not investigating it like it's a murder. There By
41:01
Speaker 2: the way, for those who think there was a hit
41:02
Speaker 2: and run involved to cause these types of injuries, there
41:07
Speaker 2: was no, uh, there's nothing indicating there was a hit
41:10
Speaker 2: and run. There were no parts of a car.
41:14
Speaker 1: No skid marks, nothing, nothing. And look one other thing.
41:17
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I don't mean to jump on you here,
41:19
Speaker 1: or not jump on you, but interrupt you. When you
41:22
Speaker 1: think about a pedestrian being struck by a vehicle, there's
41:25
Speaker 1: something that we refer to as bumper marks. So if
41:28
Speaker 1: you're talking about being struck in the thigh or the
41:30
Speaker 1: lower legs, you'll have a definitive line. And think about
41:35
Speaker 1: a bumper on a car, it makes sense. It's two
41:39
Speaker 1: parallel lines like this running hors and the horizontal plane.
41:42
Speaker 1: They're striking you if you're standing erect and you can
41:46
Speaker 1: clearly see that many times, Dave, I've even seen grill
41:49
Speaker 1: impressions on bodies where I saw I can't remember sink
41:54
Speaker 1: it was a buick Where I saw the buick the
41:58
Speaker 1: buick emblem literally pressed into the skin. And so that's
42:04
Speaker 1: a classic finding and grill marks too classic finding of
42:09
Speaker 1: a pedestrian being struck by a vehicle. But you're you're
42:13
Speaker 1: not hearing You're not hearing this, and so I think
42:16
Speaker 1: that's their default position is falling out of the back
42:20
Speaker 1: of a truck as opposed to being struck by a
42:22
Speaker 1: vehicle that is going through the person out me through literally.
42:27
Speaker 1: But you know where where you've got a static individual
42:31
Speaker 1: stand in the middle of the road and they're struck
42:32
Speaker 1: by vehicle, those injuries are going to look different. And
42:35
Speaker 1: this is this is almost and here's here's another theory.
42:40
Speaker 1: I really, I really wonder Dave all of these injuries
42:46
Speaker 1: that he sustained. I'm wondering, I'm really wondering if he
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Speaker 1: if he had come out of a vehicle wound up
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Speaker 1: on the roadway. Was there another vehicle that passed by
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Speaker 1: that didn't see him in the middle of the night
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Speaker 1: and then ran over him again that has happened. It's
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Speaker 1: a dark road. He was not found until the next morning.
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Speaker 1: There was a trucker that found him, you know, there
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Speaker 1: in the light of day. I think that all of
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Speaker 1: these things have to be factored in to the totality
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Speaker 1: of these circumstances to try to understand it, and then
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Speaker 1: there's this specter that people keep talking about. I don't
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Speaker 1: know how to either validate it or invalidated. I'm in
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Speaker 1: the same position I think that the medical examiner is
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Speaker 1: in just talking. Of course, I don't have that level
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Speaker 1: of responsibility here, but that's the pieces of the puzzle
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Speaker 1: for the me to put this thing together so that
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Speaker 1: they can actually come up with a ruling where they're
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Speaker 1: going to say, Okay, this was an accident, this was
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Speaker 1: a homicide, or however they're going to come down on
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Speaker 1: this thing. I wonder what it will be that will
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Speaker 1: push them toward that decision. Because I got to tell you, Dave,
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Speaker 1: all this data, all this data, the timeline, the information
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Speaker 1: about an ATV accident that still remains a mystery, and
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Speaker 1: the combination of all of these injuries and their documentation
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Speaker 1: feels as though we still don't have any more answers
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Speaker 1: than when we first started. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and
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Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks