Latest / Sorta Sophisticated / Episode 100 - The Fans Killed Michael Jackson (Sorta): A 100th Episode Special

Transcript

Episode 100 - The Fans Killed Michael Jackson (Sorta): A 100th Episode Special · Sorta Sophisticated

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Welcome to Sorta Sophisticated with Pete and Amanda. Did you know Michael Jackson's been dead 15 years already? 15 years. That's insane. Big movie. Big movie. Coming out this week. They spent $155 million. It's called Michael. It's called Michael. It's huge. Huge, Huge. Regardless, Amanda, if you think this guy is like an amazing musician or a total petty, because we're gonna talk about that, trust me, I will tell you this. You have not heard the whole story, because the story is not about Michael Jackson. The story, Amanda, today, is about us and what we did and the machine we built around him and how we did it all to him and what we're about to do again when we go and buy a ticket to this movie. So keep listening if you wanna find out. First, why Michael Jackson is actually considered a genius. Second, what actually happened to him. Not the TikTok version, the real version. And what we had to do with actually killing him. I know, I know. This is big. This is big. And third, sort of bonus, when everybody's like watching the movie and talking about it, you could drop all the important sophisticated shit because you'll know all the background because you listened to the podcast. So on that note, welcome back to Sort of Sophisticated. I'm Pete and with me, as always, is Amanda. Hello, Amanda.
• 1:14
  Speaker B: Hello. Hello.
• 1:15
  Speaker A: Was that good? Did we, like hook them? Do you think? We hooked everybody in?
• 1:18
  Speaker B: I mean, we are going all out different for this 100th episode.
• 1:22
  Speaker A: This is. We did it. We got to 100 episodes. Did you ever think you would have to deal with me for two frigging years?
• 1:31
  Speaker B: Well, of course. I mean, you'd always still be in our lives, but.
• 1:34
  Speaker A: But not this way.
• 1:34
  Speaker B: I mean, 100 episodes is a big deal.
• 1:36
  Speaker A: It is kind of a big deal.
• 1:37
  Speaker B: It's kind of a lot.
• 1:38
  Speaker A: It is kind of a big deal. And like, not that I've had a moment to think about it. Cause I haven't. Cause all I do is like, you know, research episodes and start coming up with the next topic or whatever. But there's been a lot of like, mind bending crap that we've learned.
• 1:49
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:49
  Speaker A: That I had some view on something, then I did research, then I came in the room, then we sat and did the podcast. I'm like, I don't know about this. This is kind of cool. So regardless, if listeners enjoy the perspective, I certainly am getting something out of it because I feel like I'm kind of less.
• 2:05
  Speaker B: Maybe you're making friends because you're so cultured and curious.
• 2:08
  Speaker A: You Think so, yeah. Maybe I'm just more chatty in grocery store lines. Maybe that too. I don't know. But, like, what's up with this? Like what? Like.
• 2:15
  Speaker B: Well, I mean, that's your brainchild, right?
• 2:16
  Speaker A: This is ridiculous.
• 2:17
  Speaker B: You really wanted a Neon.
• 2:19
  Speaker A: I feel like we're kind of bougie now. Like, we're like. We're lounging in our sort of sophisticatedness, if you will.
• 2:26
  Speaker B: The only other thing you need is, like, a cocktail.
• 2:27
  Speaker A: Yeah, right. Except I'm drinking a Diet Coke. This is terrible. What are you drinking?
• 2:30
  Speaker B: Oh, I think I have, like, a Coke Zero.
• 2:32
  Speaker A: But this is horror. Okay. We need to totally level up. We need to totally upgrade the game. Right?
• 2:38
  Speaker B: Well, before we dive into this hundredth episode, which I think is on Michael Jackson, from what I gathered, it's totally Michael Jackson.
• 2:44
  Speaker A: Mama se, mama sama Makusa.
• 2:46
  Speaker B: Let's go. I have been waiting all day to say that. I think we should say thank you to all of the listeners who tune in, whether it be sporadically or have contributed to the podcast in any way, because it got us to 100. So here we are.
• 3:00
  Speaker A: Thank you very much. I think that's kind of the whole reason the show exists, because there's those poor souls that just want to keep tuning in. I appreciate it. Okay, you ready for official title? Yep.
• 3:10
  Speaker B: Let's go.
• 3:11
  Speaker A: The fans killed Michael Jackson. Sorta. 100th anniversary special. Because you know me, I gotta find ways to keep it interesting. Right? So I'm throwing in the whole fan side of this whole thing to try to give a little bit of a different perspective.
• 3:24
  Speaker B: I don't know, it seems like it's a conspiracy, so I'm here for it.
• 3:26
  Speaker A: It might be. It might be. Fun fact, though. I'm starting hardcore with fun facts. Did you know when the trailer came out in November last year? 2025. November and 2025, 120 million people viewed the trailer in the first 24 hours.
• 3:39
  Speaker B: Dang.
• 3:39
  Speaker A: 100, right?
• 3:40
  Speaker B: I mean, like, that's a lot.
• 3:41
  Speaker A: That's like. Was that six. Six months ago? And people are, like, going bonkers for it already. Like, this is crazy.
• 3:47
  Speaker B: I can't wait to find out how the fans have killed Michael Jackson.
• 3:49
  Speaker A: Sorta.
• 3:50
  Speaker B: But I kind of have, like, just sorta. But I have some questions and theories already. But before we get there, what is our word of the week?
• 3:57
  Speaker A: Word of the week ready? Word of the week is accoutrements. Accoutrements. It's French.
• 4:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. Are those, like, the accoutrements? The pastries that come on the side they are.
• 4:08
  Speaker A: Yeah. Right. I think that's it.
• 4:10
  Speaker B: Is that it?
• 4:10
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Accoutrements, like, I always say accoutrements for, like, salad bar or, like taco bar. Right. Like all the little toppings. Yeah, Accoutrement. Okay. Accoutrements, a noun, plural, almost always, and it means the accessories or equipment associated with a particular activity or lifestyle.
• 4:25
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 4:26
  Speaker A: Like the stuff that comes with the things, just like you said. Right. So it comes from the French accoutre. I don't even know. We have to ask Eric.
• 4:33
  Speaker B: Fair.
• 4:33
  Speaker A: Right. Accoutre, which means to equip a soldier. So it goes all the way back to, like, military stuff, like with a belt or like a sword or whatever, like stuff they had. But now we use it. Like, I use it with food a lot. But, I mean, I suppose you could use it with anything specific to lifestyle. So. Accoutrements. What'd you say? Pastries. Yeah, the little go withs. Yeah, yeah, There you go. So we just have to somehow throw in accoutrements.
• 4:53
  Speaker B: All right, start this thing. Let's go.
• 4:55
  Speaker A: Okay, but first, if you like what you're listening to, hit subscribe. Follow us. New episodes come out weekly on any of your favorite podcast platforms. Please subscribe. Thank you very much. Okay, here's the plan. Here's what we're going to do. First, we're going to do a quick history of his childhood and, like, growing up. Because he had a very famous childhood already, right? We know Michael Jackson 5.
• 5:13
  Speaker B: I mean, it wasn't great.
• 5:14
  Speaker A: No. But I mean, super famous. Yeah. Okay. Then we'll talk about the music, his solo career, and then all the clues. He actually left clues in all his songs. So we're gonna do that. Of, like, how Easter eggs. Like how he was struggling. Yes. Yeah, but I didn't know any of that. So we'll get into that. Then we'll officially talk about how the fan sort of killed him. Like, my whole hook. Then we'll do the hard stuff, like the allegations, the pedophile stuff, the molesting, all that crap. And then we'll end with a positive note, the movie coming out, and we'll go from there.
• 5:39
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 5:40
  Speaker A: Some fun facts and some summaries and shit like that.
• 5:42
  Speaker B: It's gonna be a long episode, but let's go.
• 5:43
  Speaker A: It is. It is. Okay, so here we go. It all starts in Gary, Indiana. Michael Joseph Jackson. Did you know his middle name? Joseph? No, I didn't know that either. MJJ.
• 5:51
  Speaker B: Jinx. Sorry.
• 5:52
  Speaker A: Okay. August 29, 1958. Gary Indiana. Do you know who else was from Gary, Indiana? Well, no, he wasn't from Gary, Indiana. He sung about Gary, Indiana. John Cougar. Are you John Cougar fan?
• 6:01
  Speaker B: No.
• 6:02
  Speaker A: John Cougar Mellencamp. Minutes of memories. Oh, God. Okay. Anyway. Gary, Indiana. Steel town, south of Chicago. Like 30 miles. Whatever. You get the idea. His parents were Joe and Catherine. Joe, obviously super famous dad, like, a lot of abusive things going on there. Right? Nine children lived in a 950 square foot house. Two bedrooms, two bedrooms, nine kids.
• 6:23
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 6:24
  Speaker A: So I don't know how that all works. So, like, Joe and Catherine, one room, nine children in the other room.
• 6:28
  Speaker B: No, they probably just used the front room.
• 6:30
  Speaker A: Okay, fine. My mom did something similar to this. I don't know. Like in Ohio. Thirteen brothers and sisters, two bedrooms upstairs, one downstairs. Parents slept downstairs. Six boys in one, seven girls in the other.
• 6:41
  Speaker B: Dang.
• 6:41
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's insane. One bathroom. That's how my mom grew up.
• 6:46
  Speaker B: But, you know, that's how it originally was.
• 6:48
  Speaker A: Different. I know. Different. Yeah, yeah.
• 6:49
  Speaker B: And here we are when we complain we have to share a bedroom.
• 6:52
  Speaker A: I know. I have two and a half showing my house. My kids are always pissed off there's not enough bathrooms. Whatever. All right, so Joe. We're gonna go back to Joe Dad. Right. So apparently, I didn't know he was a pretty talented musician.
• 7:02
  Speaker B: Really?
• 7:03
  Speaker A: Yes. He was in a band called the Falcons in the 1950s. But since he was black. Right. Black bands in the 1950s, Little no Name Town. Like, they didn't have a lot, like, a chance. So he sort of melted into oblivion and just went to work in the steel mills. Cause he had to. Right? But the story goes, he gets home from work one day and he sees his son Tito playing one of, like, Joe's old guitars.
• 7:25
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 7:25
  Speaker A: And he was like, aha. Aha. I got an idea. And he totally puts his kids to work and forms this band. Cause, like, if I can't do this, maybe my kids have a shot at it. Cause they're like, next gen, right? So they obviously turn into the Jackson 5. Spoiler. Jackie, Tito, Jermaine, Marlon, and then baby Michael.
• 7:45
  Speaker B: Right? It's all the five boys. But then, like, didn't he abuse his children? He was an abuser under, like, discipline.
• 7:52
  Speaker A: He. Yeah, so I didn't find any. He wasn't, like, a molester yet. We'll get to the Michael Jackson stuff. But he was an abuser. So depending on which kid you ask, there was obviously tons of verbal abuse, but there was absolutely physical abuse. But, like, some of them said no and support the family. Some of them say, oh, my God, the family's crazy. It happened all the time. But. But either way, you hear stories about Michael. I mean, he would throw up in his own living room, freaking out because his dad was gonna kick his ass if he didn't sing, right? Yo. Oh, my God. What did he call that back then? Not the belt. What do you call that thing? A swatch. A stitch switch. You get bit with a switch. I don't know. One of those. Either way, whatever. It wasn't good, right? They just had to keep practicing and get beat to death. Okay, so Michael. Do you know how old Michael was when he started performing?
• 8:30
  Speaker B: Five.
• 8:31
  Speaker A: Yeah. Five years old. I. Six. Five years old. Fine. Okay.
• 8:33
  Speaker B: Crazy.
• 8:34
  Speaker A: Eight years old when he started the Jackson five. Eight years old. Ten years old when they signed to Motown records.
• 8:41
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 8:41
  Speaker A: And 11 years old when I want you back, that super famous single came out, went to number one. 11 years old. That's insane. He was a child on a world stage.
• 8:51
  Speaker B: Childhood, huh? He lost his childhood.
• 8:54
  Speaker A: He lost it. That's what we're gonna talk about. This is one of my main. This is one of my main threads about when we're gonna get to, like, the whole, like, sexual abuse allegations in the whole thing. Because I get. I like. It doesn't matter where you land on the whole thing. This is part of it. He lost his childhood. It just got ripped. And nobody talks about that. Just like, oh, what a big deal. Like, oh. Anyway.
• 9:11
  Speaker B: But if you think about, like, being 11, right? Because my daughter's 10. She will be 11. I can't even fathom, like, the weight of the world that he probably felt, right, because he was, like, the star of the Jackson 5.
• 9:24
  Speaker A: Yeah. Oh.
• 9:26
  Speaker B: And then you have the pressure of your siblings who maybe resent you or fill in the blank. And now you have your whole family success and financial burden.
• 9:36
  Speaker A: All of it. All of it goes together. I know it does. So it, like. And it sucks because first of all, he was super charismatic, right? I mean, he had something the other siblings didn't have. Let's cut the crap. But also, again, back to us, right? And when I say us, I mean, like, us, the media, us, the fans, us, the music industry. They want the youngest, they want the cutest, they want the thing, right? And so it's this weird juxtaposition thing he was in because, number one, he was super charismatic. Two, he loved to perform. But then while he's performing, he didn't have to worry about his dad. He didn't have to worry about his family. He didn't have to worry about anything shitty going on at home. So it was like he wanted to dive deeper and deeper into performing, but in the world of performing, he had to be the superstar. So it was like this weird biggest strength, worst weakness, all at the same time, all rolled into one. And he was like the star power that was leading all of the interviews. And he loved it because it got him away from his house. So it was like, it was like all scary and weird. But then we, again, we collectively, you know, the fans ate it up. And he went to like this bonkers stardom, catapulted because of it. So just, I'm not saying it's our responsibility. I'm saying I can see how that was already spiraling. When this kid is literally, like you said, a child 11 years old and it's all starting. Does that make sense?
• 10:53
  Speaker B: No. Absolutely. And I think it's so hard because as a child you don't understand the psychology of what's happening to you or how it's going to affect you. And it doesn't sound like he really had anyone that was looking out for him as an adult.
• 11:05
  Speaker A: Bingo. Absolutely. Yeah.
• 11:07
  Speaker B: And then sure ensures.
• 11:08
  Speaker A: Well, being on top of Joe and Catherine. Like, I mean, I'm not going to say they're crappy parents or anything. I don't know. I mean, it sounds like they were intent on starting the.
• 11:16
  Speaker B: What a mixed bag.
• 11:17
  Speaker A: Yeah. But then you have Motown, because now you have, now you do have the music industry who grabbed ahold of this like tiger by the tail. And that's like. It is a money making machine scheduling everything they did, where they ate, where they slept, where they shit, where they. Everywhere they went, everything they did. Which ultimately not hard to figure out is what's going to lead to Michael Jackson going solo. Motown owned the Jackson 5. I mean, flat out owned the Jackson 5. And like you said, he was like 10 years old when this was all going on. And so he was just a kid that didn't understand it. All. Right, right.
• 11:52
  Speaker B: But in some ways did that then psychologically stunt him? Do you know what I mean? Like, you think about it.
• 11:58
  Speaker A: No question. No. Have you heard of the term Arrested Development?
• 12:01
  Speaker B: I mean, we've heard the show.
• 12:02
  Speaker A: The show. Okay, fine. Well, that's what it's about. That's kind of silly, but that's exactly what it's about. Yes. So there's that psychological term. I don't know if the psychological terms arrested development or if it's just like one of those behaviors out there, I'm not sure. But the point is, is whatever age people get famous, they are stuck at the level that they got famous at. Right?
• 12:20
  Speaker B: So, like, is this why we have so many child stars who struggle?
• 12:23
  Speaker A: Yes, this is the whole point. Right. So it goes all the way back to Freud. Like, if you remember Sigmund Freud with, it was the psychosexual shit. Like, it wasn't. It wasn't just behavior stuff. He was doing the weird sexual stages. Okay, right. But that's where it all starts from. And people literally get stuck in certain stages. So then it subsequently, like moved on from sexual to like regular behavior stuff. And yes, essentially what you're saying is that's why child stars specifically struggle more than when, you know, you become famous when you're like 20 or 25 or 30 or whatever it is. Yes, absolutely. And so think about that for a second because we are going to talk about all the molestation stuff. I know there's stuff you just can't get away from. Like he. He did stuff. There's no question the evidence is overwhelming that he did stuff to these kids. But I don't think it was like, in this creepy old man way. I think it was in a. He was just in a 30 year old body, but he was 10 years old inside still. Like, he was very, very effed up. So I'm not. I'm not condoning it at all, at all. I'm just saying it is, in my opinion specifically, it's different than an old man like me who is fully aware of what I'm doing and then I'm grooming a young child. I think he was a young child. Grooming a young child who just happened to look 30 years old. Like, it's creepy. I know. I'm saying that so weird and I'm gonna get a lot of shit for it. But I think that's what was going on in his head. It's kind of fucked up.
• 13:37
  Speaker B: I mean, you're assuming that his just normal growth process and development, it like literally stunted.
• 13:43
  Speaker A: Yes, you said stunted. I think it just stopped. Yes.
• 13:45
  Speaker B: All right, well, I guess maybe we should move on to music because that's like a whole spiral downhill real fast.
• 13:52
  Speaker A: If we go to his music, that's fine, but then we're go back to this molestation crap. We have to. Amanda, it's Michael. It's part of Michael Jackson. Okay, okay. All right, fine. Music. What do we want to know about music? Do we just want. Should I just give you like where we went from Jackson 5? Let me go where we went from Jackson 5. Okay, so Jackson 5 goes immediately crazy, right? 1969, 1970.
• 14:09
  Speaker B: I don't know what that's for. The kids.
• 14:10
  Speaker A: Do you know when they came out with their first album? Four singles went number one immediately. Four records. Like, that's insane. Like, on one album it was, what do we say? I want you back. Then it was abc, then it was the love you save. And then I'll be there. You remember I'll be there. Yes, all four. I know. What is that? That's insane. That's how good they are.
• 14:32
  Speaker B: How about Rock and Robin, huh?
• 14:34
  Speaker A: That was Michael's solo.
• 14:36
  Speaker B: So Motown, that was his solo.
• 14:38
  Speaker A: So a few years later, Motown already started figuring out they wanted him to go solo without the Jackson 5. But that's where Michael got pissed and then left. So that happened. Rockin Robin. And then, if you remember, Ben, there was a song, Ben, it was a slow one. He did both singles from Motown for Michael. He left, met Quincy Jones. 1979 says, Screw you, Motown. And he goes to Epic Records with Quincy and he records off the Wall. And off the Wall has also four top 10 singles from the same album. Like, that's incredible. Like, he just goes from one to the next. That's Michael Jackson. Okay, so then you think he's done, and it's like, oh, wait, how much better can you get? Right? Okay, so then what does he do? He does Thriller. I mean, you know, Thriller.
• 15:21
  Speaker B: Thrillers. Thriller, man.
• 15:21
  Speaker A: So 1982, thriller comes.
• 15:23
  Speaker B: How old was he then?
• 15:24
  Speaker A: 1982. 1958. What? 24 years old.
• 15:27
  Speaker B: Oh, dang.
• 15:27
  Speaker A: I don't know. Did I just do that right?
• 15:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. That's crazy.
• 15:31
  Speaker A: Best selling album, Amanda in human history.
• 15:35
  Speaker B: Still.
• 15:36
  Speaker A: Thriller. Still.
• 15:37
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 15:37
  Speaker A: That's over 100 million copies. Something crazy like that. I don't even know. You want to guess how many songs went number one from that album? It's more than four.
• 15:45
  Speaker B: I mean, but there's only like 10 songs on an album, right?
• 15:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you're about right. Seven. Seven number one.
• 15:53
  Speaker B: That's crazy.
• 15:54
  Speaker A: Some people go their whole life without one number one. What were the seven he did say? Oh, my God. What do you want me. I don't know. Beat it, Billie Jean. Thriller, the girl is Mine. Dad, there's. There was a few slow ones. They're all on there. They're all crazy. Human nature. Why. Why that one? Yeah, like, they're all good. Want to be starting song.
• 16:11
  Speaker B: I don't even know, like, who wrote all the songs.
• 16:14
  Speaker A: He wrote all the songs.
• 16:14
  Speaker B: No way.
• 16:15
  Speaker A: Well, he co wrote all the songs.
• 16:16
  Speaker B: Really?
• 16:17
  Speaker A: Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:18
  Speaker B: So he was actually musically.
• 16:19
  Speaker A: Oh no. I have a fun fact about. No. So remember how I said we're gonna learn why he's a genius? This is one of the reasons why he was a genius.
• 16:25
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 16:25
  Speaker A: People, they used to feed you songs right back in the. Back in the 80s, they were like, oh, here we go. No, he either wrote or co wrote every friggin song.
• 16:33
  Speaker B: Crazy.
• 16:33
  Speaker A: Yes. And then think of like the thin. Like the music video. Do you remember the music video?
• 16:37
  Speaker B: Yes. I mean that was like the big
• 16:38
  Speaker A: thing, 14 minutes long. He hires John Landis, the director, John Landis to like help him with this music video. Do you know it's credited. I totally did not know this when I was doing Going down the Rabbit Holes. It's credit was saving mtv. MTV was almost gonna go off the air because MTV came out what like 1981 or whatever. So this is like 1983, 1984. And it like wasn't really like catching on. And people say that that is the single reason it re. Catapulted MTV's whole freaking career. Okay, so after that he does bad in 1987. Man in the Mirror, Dirty Diana. Like, I mean, he's got the song bad. I mean he's got every. So the whole 80s, he's like considered literally the most creative like artist like on the planet in any genre. Like hands down.
• 17:20
  Speaker B: And then didn't he also, like, if I remember correctly from our super bowl episode where the whole halftime show.
• 17:26
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 17:26
  Speaker B: Was basically like.
• 17:27
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think that was like brought to 92, 93. Right, so he brought. Yes, he cat. Right. Think about all the good stuff he did. And again, I'm gonna argue through this whole thing. He was 11 years old in his.
• 17:40
  Speaker B: In his adult body.
• 17:40
  Speaker A: Yes, in this. In this adult body. That's why he got all weird. Wanted to change his look and like, oh my God, I feel so bad. Whatever. Okay, so let's go back for a second then. Okay, so you're talking about super bowl. But then he still did the moonwalk. So after Thriller he goes on stage and just starts doing that kind of crap. Like.
• 17:55
  Speaker B: But did he come up with the moonwalk?
• 17:56
  Speaker A: He did not come up with a moonwalk. Did you know that? No, I didn't know. Like, I thought he totally came up with a moonwalk. Like it was his. No. So it's one of those things where he just took something and then made it obsessive. And ten times better. No, I guess it's credited to some guy named Jeffrey Daniel who did it on a show like a year before. And Michael Jackson, like, I don't know. Yeah, Copied it and then took it from there. So it goes all the way back to a guy named Marcel Marceau and James Brown. So I think it's a mix of James Brown, like crazy leg James Brown, like, he was like super awesome dancer and Marcel Marceau was like a mime. And I guess somewhere in that, like the beginnings of the moonwalk came Jeffrey Daniel does it on television first. Nobody knows who he is. Doesn't even care. Michael Jackson gets a VHS tape of it. Perfects it. Waits till Motown 25 year anniversary NBC special. And just the place, it was bonkers. I remember watching on TV when I was a young kid, it was unbelievable. People were like, oh my God, what just happened? The guy's magic. It was absolutely insane. Totally insane.
• 18:53
  Speaker B: Onto my place, right time. Evidently.
• 18:56
  Speaker A: Genius. What do you want me to say? Onto my genius points. Okay, my genius point. Number one, co wrote all his songs or wrote all his songs.
• 19:02
  Speaker B: Yeah, I bet. Blows me down.
• 19:03
  Speaker A: That counts. Okay. Two, he would make up the songs in his head before he would get into the studio. He had the little recorder and so he would hum every instrument separately into this recorder before he would walk into the studio. And then he would give it to the producers and they would have all six parts already completed. And then they would hire musicians, then they would go ahead and record songs. So, like he had everything figured out. It wasn't like he had some co collaboration with some bass guitarist or something. He did it all by himself. All the parts? Yes. Okay. And then with dancing, like I said. So he studied like crazy. So not just the moonwalk, this guy, Jeffrey Daniel, but he would do like James Brown, all the people before him, and come up with all these other little tweaks. Obsessed over this stuff. Hours and hours and hours in his room all by himself, making sure that no one saw him until he perfected it. So you would argue genius, but you would also argue like perfectionist. Yeah, perfectionist. Ocd. Like crazy, right? And then I would say the biggest one by far is his ability, like storytelling. I think that's super underrated because every one of his songs and every one of his videos and everything he did, it wasn't just a quick thing. It was literally from beginning to end in its entirety. An absolute story, all compact. And who can do that in three minutes? Very few songwriters can figure out how to do that. And I think he's done an excellent job. So those are the four main reasons I would say. Absolutely. Seriously, if you look it up, he's considered a genius. I don't know, like, IQ wise, like, was it 150 or whatever?
• 20:34
  Speaker B: But a Beautiful mind, regardless.
• 20:35
  Speaker A: I'm just saying. Yes. I'm saying absolutely. Genius. Right? For sure.
• 20:37
  Speaker B: Sabrine, really, it sounds like he's a one of a kind entertainer, once in a lifetime, tell me about it kind of guy. Right?
• 20:42
  Speaker A: I mean, are you gonna. Are you literally gonna say he wasn't?
• 20:45
  Speaker B: No, no, no. I just, like, you think about it, there's. I mean, yes, we have some great artists, but he was just so iconic.
• 20:52
  Speaker A: There's very few people that make your own genre, make your own. Yeah, I mean, everything he touched, it was magical.
• 20:58
  Speaker B: So. But earlier you had said that there was, like, little Easter eggs that he hid in his lyrics. So it kind of makes sense if he was writing his own music and, you know, all the lyrics, that it would be personal, I'd assume.
• 21:09
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 21:10
  Speaker B: So what in his lyrics was he hinting at about, like, the entertainment machine that he was.
• 21:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. As a fan, I didn't know any of that.
• 21:19
  Speaker B: Like, I mean, I don't know. I would just think of any of the songs.
• 21:22
  Speaker A: I'm listening to the song. Apparently this guy was like, Shakespeare. Apparently he was, like, laying shit down in there that, like, only certain smart people could figure out. I had no idea. Go back and listen to our Shakespeare episode, people. Okay, so do you know the song Wanna Be Starting Something? Yeah. Okay. Okay, so I didn't know this. The song is about being trapped by the media and all public consumption. So it says, someone's always trying to start my baby crying, talking, squealing, spying, saying you just want to be start in something. He's. He's using his baby as, like, the concept of the music industry is trying to get to us. If you listen to that whole song, that's all he's talking about is how they're trying to keep him on the hamster wheel. The whole song, I was like, okay, didn't know that. Leave Me Alone is another one. It's on the bad album. He does it again. It's about him begging the world to stop bugging him. Literally. He personifies. Again, the whole thing is about a girl, but it's exactly what it's about. It's like, leave me alone, I don't want to be bothered by you, you proverbial. You the music industry any longer. Which I think is wild did they not know that's what it was about because he was writing about a girl, or did they know what it was about? It's super weird. Then he makes a song called Scream. Literally, it's called Scream in 1995. It comes out with Janet Jackson, his sister. Baby sister. Right. And it's about being lied to in the music industry, the whole thing. And they're basically pissed. Both of them are pissed off, fed up, and in half the song, they are literally screaming like, I went back, I listened to the song. I never heard it before. I'm like, okay, this is kind of weird. And then the last one he wrote, it's called Childhood, which is basically an autobiography of never being allowed to have a childhood. And you need to understand him before you judge him. So in every album, there was at least one song, maybe two, where he purposefully shoved in a message that said, screw you guys. I don't like what you're doing to me. So here's your album, Here are your songs, but here's what I'm saying underneath, so pay attention. And we all think it's about a girl or a guy or something else, and it's not. It's all about him being pissed. I know his outlet in every album. I think that's kind of cool.
• 23:31
  Speaker B: I mean, the every album thing is pretty rad.
• 23:34
  Speaker A: I just think. I think it's wild. And then we're so lame, because I guess I'm so lame. I was just listening to his other music. I'm listening to Beat It. I'm listening to Billie Jean.
• 23:42
  Speaker B: I'm over here, like, listen to. Want to be starting in something.
• 23:44
  Speaker A: Okay, that one. Yes. But, like. But some of these other ones, I don't even know which, like, suck. I had my own moment of, like, you know what? I got to be cooler and listen to more. Not just Michael Jackson, but I should probably listen to artists. When I listen to artists, I should listen to artists differently.
• 23:56
  Speaker B: Yeah. I wonder if it was also his, like, cry for help.
• 23:58
  Speaker A: That's my point.
• 23:59
  Speaker B: And nobody.
• 24:00
  Speaker A: Nobody picked up on it.
• 24:01
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 24:01
  Speaker A: Again, back to. But then we sort of killed him.
• 24:04
  Speaker B: Well, or did the industry kill him? Because the industry.
• 24:07
  Speaker A: I counted. I. At the beginning, I said, we're going to be calling us part of that. We're the industry two.
• 24:12
  Speaker B: Right. Because you have the people who are making money off of him, who are in actual. The industry. Right. That machine we're buying, and you have the consumers.
• 24:21
  Speaker A: We are signing up for it, but
• 24:23
  Speaker B: we are the consumers.
• 24:24
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 24:25
  Speaker B: And so as the industry Though they're the ones who are.
• 24:28
  Speaker A: They should regulate.
• 24:29
  Speaker B: They're picking.
• 24:30
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 24:30
  Speaker B: I mean that what the top, you know, 10 songs are. They're the ones that are putting the money behind a. Push it, you know, whatever, fill in the blank. And so of course, like if there's a song that's, you know, calling them out, I don't know if that would be a song that they would put millions of dollars behind in order to get to the top of, you know, you're absolutely right.
• 24:49
  Speaker A: No, so like, if you. So you're right. Like there's like stratifications. So I'm being provocative. Obviously. I know the fans didn't kill Michael Jackson. I get it. I mean he obviously had his issues and was trying to figure things out. And then you have like the music industry and you have the media, then you have us. I'm just saying there's layers of it and I'm saying we're all part and parcel to it differently. Fine, whatever. Maybe the fans are 12.6%. Whatever. I get it. I'm just, I'm making a point. So it's sort of a more thoughtful way of trying to look at this versus just being like I love him or I think he's a petty. There's like an in between version here is what I'm trying to pull out. Makes sense.
• 25:20
  Speaker B: Well, there's a whole person, I think.
• 25:21
  Speaker A: Yes. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
• 25:23
  Speaker B: Well, when did all of the bad stuff start coming out then? Because if he's already making cries out on his album for help.
• 25:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, pretty quick. Like right after bad. Bad was 87, so 93 was the first.
• 25:34
  Speaker B: Was the first right after the Super Bowl.
• 25:36
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. Let me just go through the quick list and then we'll talk about like I'll literally punch. Punch list this thing. Okay, so 93, 13 year old named Jordan Chandler accused Michael Jackson of sexual abuse. And then Michael of course denied it. Civil settlement. So there was criminal and civil going on at the same time. Civil rights ended first and they awarded Jordan Chandler $23 million, which they believe is what sort of. Shut up. The criminal case very quickly. Jordan Chandler didn't testify. A lot of evidence, though.
• 26:02
  Speaker B: Oh, there was evidence.
• 26:03
  Speaker A: Oh, a lot of evidence. Yeah. So. But it disappeared 10 years later. 2003, journalist Martin Bashir aired the documentary footage, that's the one I totally remember, of some kid holding hands with Michael Jackson, Gavin Arvizo and Michael saying he saw nothing wrong with sharing a bed with children. That one was a little bit creepy. 2004, he was charged criminally, 10 counts of child molestation. 2005, went to trial and was acquitted. Then he died four years later, June 25, 2009 of cardiac arrest caused by propofol overdose given to him by his doctor, what was his name? Conrad Murray, who was later convicted of involuntary manslaughter. So then Fast forward again. 2019 HBO documentary comes out called Leaving Neverland. Featured two men, Wade Robinson and James Safechuck, giving detailed accounts of the abuse. Both men, mind you, previously defended Michael Jackson in the original Jordan Chandler case when they were younger. So a little weird there. I just went back and watched it. It's four hours. It's a very long documentary. It's two. It's like a series miniseries. Yeah, yeah, it's really good. I suggest everybody watch it. And then finally, Michael Jackson estate disputes the documentary extensively and like points to obviously financial motivation behind everything because the documentary won an Emmy and so blah, blah, blah. And here we are 20 years later, allegations still unresolved. And in November of 2026, the Wade Robinson James Safechuck case is still open. They're still going after Michael Jackson ventures or something along those lines. Right. Because they're trying to prove that the business had a responsibility to.
• 27:34
  Speaker B: People knew. And they.
• 27:35
  Speaker A: Yes. Bingo. So if they can connect it to the business. So it's still going on November of 2026, they're going to have a trial. Yeah. Goes to trial. Which is crazy.
• 27:41
  Speaker B: Wow, that's crazy because they. There's a lot of flip flopping here, I feel like. Yeah, well under oath, not under oath.
• 27:48
  Speaker A: There was a lot of perjury. Is that what they call perjury when they lie? Yeah. Yep.
• 27:51
  Speaker B: Huh. How do you rescind.
• 27:53
  Speaker A: I mean they are doing it, but
• 27:54
  Speaker B: I mean they're also. They were kids. There's so many things. Right. There's just a whole lot of.
• 27:59
  Speaker A: I will say this, this is one of those weird cases where like the evidence, like this is not something you can just listen to your friend and be like, oh, he did it. Oh, okay, I agree. You have to figure all this out on your own because you have to decide what's real, what's not real, who said what and when. It's. It's Bo. Because like you said, these kids were 10 years old. They're 12 years old. You know, what do their parents have to do with this? Why are their parents letting them sleep over? Why is my Michael Jackson had what.
• 28:19
  Speaker B: I know there's like Michael Jackson.
• 28:20
  Speaker A: It was like 20,000 kids a summer coming through Neverland. 20,000 kids, right? So like really there's like three or four that are complaining. What about the, what about the hundreds of thousands? I'm not saying he did it. I'm not saying he didn't do it. I have my own view. My view is I think that there was some stuff that he did that he shouldn't have. Absolutely. That is my view. I've watched all the documentaries. I believe he did something. I just think you need to figure it out for yourself. This is not something you just say like, oh, he's guilty or oh, he's. You have to respect everybody involved here. That's all I'm saying.
• 28:47
  Speaker B: Okay, well, now that we've went through your timeline.
• 28:48
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 28:49
  Speaker B: Why do you think that the fans killed him? Because clearly it was Conrad Murray.
• 28:54
  Speaker A: Well, duh. Right. But like, was it though?
• 28:57
  Speaker B: It was.
• 28:58
  Speaker A: He was just prescribing sleeping pills. Michael Jackson hadn't slept in like what, five years? Probably. Okay, let's be honest.
• 29:04
  Speaker B: Why?
• 29:04
  Speaker A: Because he was stressed out. Because we were after him. Okay, here's the deal. Think about it this way. So after Jordan Chandler and the whole settlement, right, which Michael never confessed to, he goes back and starts to record and comes up with the next album. What's it called? His story or history. But it's like his, his.
• 29:22
  Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah. Okay.
• 29:23
  Speaker A: And immediately, record company. No, nobody's playing it. Radio wasn't playing it. Nobody's paying attention. It sold a quarter of the amount of albums that Thriller did. I think it sold something like 40% of like what Bad did. It was terrible. They stopped playing him on mtv. Like everything just started to take an absolute shit because people started seeing him as way too polarizing. So my argument is the same machine that made him so big decided after these allegations, mind you, at this time, this was just one kid, Jordan. This isn't, wasn't all the other parts. This was only in 1993. They immediately passed a sentence, convicted him and said, you're no longer important to us. And us fans went along with that and said, dun, dun, dun. So his spiral down into depression, isolation, right? Like removing himself at this point now anybody who's following him around, they're not following him around for his music. They're following him around cause they want pictures of paparazzi, pictures of who he's with and what's going on. Like, so you can understand again, sort of get in his head. He's a 10 year old kid, he thinks he's famous. He's not anymore. World is crushing around him. He has no money anymore. He's trying to make a comeback. Nobody gives two shits about his comeback anymore. And people are just following him around to try to try to come, right? So it's like, it totally sucks. And then Martin Bashir, that comes out with that documentary ten years later. So if you were even on the fence for five seconds on whether you believed him or not from 1993 to 2003, once you got to 2003, it was over. And then, if you remember the trial, there was one part of the trial, he shows up in his. His pajamas. I don't know if it was an umbrella. It was raining. He's in his pajamas. He was obviously by that time, like, he wasn't sleepy. He was a freak by that time. He had no money. Neverland Ranch is like, going bankrupt, basically. He's trying to make a comeback. Do you remember he was making. He was making a movie called this is Me or something. Like, he was trying to make a comeback to. Or make money. He was an absolute train wreck. So I'm suggesting you are right. Like, you know, music industry, media, and then fans. But my Jedi mind trick here is fans, subscribed, fans, unsubscribed. And as a result of that, you had the fanatic crazy fans who, no matter what, were defending him. And then you had everybody else saying he's a pedophile. And anywhere he turned, nobody gave two shits about his music anymore. That is the thing, I would argue, made him want sleeping pills. And then Conrad Murray just turned up the sleeping pills.
• 31:43
  Speaker B: I just feel like, as a consumer, and maybe it's just. I mean, it's not just America, right? It's every, I think, country and culture where they have celebrities and idols fill in the blank, right? That we put these people on pedestals, right? But the minute that they're crashing or having, you know, some sort of mental breakdown, mental episode, you know, hadn't healed from their trauma, so easy to be like, baby, out with the bathwater.
• 32:10
  Speaker A: I agree. That's that. And that's. I think that's like the one thread that I'm trying to, like, say so, like, hey, what are we going to do different about it? Like, to the next one? Like, look, I always tell my kids, don't subscribe to that. Don't subscribe. But at the end of the day, like, there is a responsibility to something.
• 32:24
  Speaker B: So we could do anything, though. I mean, we're just like peons.
• 32:27
  Speaker A: But I would say this. I would say, so I do this A lot with, like, sports, because I'm a big sports guy. So when I was younger, I got into this completely, like, whoever was, oh, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson. Oh, then Magic Johnson got aids. Oh, my God. Like, all the things. Now I try to separate the athlete and his athletic prowess and how awesome he is from his humanness. So I appreciate the athleticism and that skill only. And I don't participate in anything else, good or bad. And what I say, I mean, I would say I put my money where my mouth is, if you ask me. Hey, well, do you want to go to Laker games all the time? No, I don't. Do I want to watch Luka play, like, on tv? Sure, I'll do that. But I'm going to stop short of subscribing to the man or the system. I just want to appreciate the talent that's in front of me. And I think if we could do more of that and stop short, like, make sure we're not reposting and, and, and, and sharing, gossiping, not doing the gossip part of it, the drama part of it, that maybe that's our part. Maybe that's just our little separation where we're saying, like, hey, we're not contributing, and then we can feel better about it. Does that make sense?
• 33:36
  Speaker B: Well, I mean, we'll cut down on the need for paparazzi and.
• 33:39
  Speaker A: Oh, right. You know, that's what I'm saying.
• 33:40
  Speaker B: It doesn't matter. Eggs in.
• 33:42
  Speaker A: The thing that sucks here is, like,
• 33:43
  Speaker B: I mean, he was an abused kid. He was like 6 years old. He didn't have a childhood. He never really probably had friends. Everybody always wanted something different from him.
• 33:50
  Speaker A: His dad was beating him. And I'm not saying his dad molested him, but. So I think back, I think it was Jordan, Gavin, Wade, James, those four, for sure. I think all their allegations are real. And I believe him. I believe all four of them. I also think Michael Jackson was, not me, some gross man, like, who could figure this out and manipulate them. I think he was literally sitting next to them at their same emotional age level. And it was like two boys in a room together, not an adult and a kid in a room together, which is a very uncomfortable way to hold this. I get it. And people probably think I'm crazy, but I'm saying both things could be true at the same time. I understand, legally he's a petty. I get it. But I'm also saying, like, oh, my God, where in the fuck is the help that this man should have had while, like, you were saying Earlier, Motown was sucking from him. Epic Records was sucking from him. His dad was sucking from it. His estate was sucking from him. All of these parents. Where were all of these parents of all of these children who were letting them go there and sleep over and drink Jesus juice and. Oh, wacko Jacko. Like, what the hell are you. What the fuck?
• 35:03
  Speaker B: But they're responsible, though. That is.
• 35:05
  Speaker A: That's my point.
• 35:05
  Speaker B: Wanting to buy in and be a part of, you know, this celebrity facade.
• 35:10
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 35:10
  Speaker B: Want to go to Neverland. Want to participate. Want to.
• 35:12
  Speaker A: Right. Want to be part of. Want to be around him. Want to be around him until he's crazy and he's wacko and, oh, my God, now kill him.
• 35:20
  Speaker B: But I think that's like, a cultural thing. It is right?
• 35:22
  Speaker A: To stop it, Amanda, we have to stop it. That's the whole argument here. You got it.
• 35:25
  Speaker B: As we're talking about, like, being able to hold two things at once. Does the movie go into this? Like, what is the movie about?
• 35:30
  Speaker A: The movie's about Michael.
• 35:32
  Speaker B: Well, duh.
• 35:33
  Speaker A: Michael just Jack. Okay. No, so they don't because it's backed by the estate. So, like, this is.
• 35:42
  Speaker B: Oh, okay.
• 35:42
  Speaker A: This is Michael in his pure form. I mean, this is like.
• 35:46
  Speaker B: Is this the estate trying to make more money off his legacy?
• 35:48
  Speaker A: I can't pass judge. I don't know that I'm almost arguing. It's back to the media and back to the music industry. And back to us, I think.
• 35:57
  Speaker B: Who owns the rights?
• 35:57
  Speaker A: I think it's us.
• 35:58
  Speaker B: Because he has three kids, I believe.
• 36:00
  Speaker A: Yeah, he does. Yeah. Yeah. I believe it's the Michael Jackson estate that owns the rights. But I'd say we wanted to do something to make us all feel good, that we left his legacy intact in a good way, and we could all feel good about ourselves collectively and we could go watch a fun movie.
• 36:14
  Speaker B: So they also, like, maybe a clapback to the documentary that came out.
• 36:20
  Speaker A: So they already did clap back. They had their own.
• 36:22
  Speaker B: No, but I know, like, they clap. I mean, they.
• 36:24
  Speaker A: Oh, got it.
• 36:26
  Speaker B: They pushed against it. But I mean, like, this is their story. Their version.
• 36:30
  Speaker A: No, because it doesn't go that far. Because. Okay, so here's where we get stuck. So let me start with. It's called Michael. It's directed by Antoine Fuqua, super famous director. John Logan is the writer. He wrote gladiator, he wrote Skyfall 007. So, I mean, this thing is gonna be good, right? And his nephew, Michael's nephew, Jafar Jackson, Jermaine's son, is playing Michael Jackson.
• 36:53
  Speaker B: I mean, that makes sense. He probably looks more like him than Blanket and Prince.
• 36:56
  Speaker A: Yes. Right. So that was my first question. I was like, well, wait, hold on.
• 36:58
  Speaker B: Is his name actually Blanket, though?
• 37:00
  Speaker A: But yeah, yeah, he goes by something else now like BG or bg, but
• 37:04
  Speaker B: his name was actually Blanket.
• 37:04
  Speaker A: Blanket, they call him.
• 37:05
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, that had to be a nickname.
• 37:07
  Speaker A: No, his name was Blanket. Yes, look him up. Yes, absolutely.
• 37:11
  Speaker B: No way.
• 37:11
  Speaker A: Yes, totally. But they, I don't think they didn't want to have anything to do with it as much as like, they weren't. They're not in the music. They. They moved out from the music industry.
• 37:18
  Speaker B: Yeah, they're not. Yeah.
• 37:19
  Speaker A: Jafar was at least an entertainer. Spent two years, fun fact, perfecting Michael Jackson before they even started filming anything.
• 37:27
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 37:28
  Speaker A: Like they picked this long ass time ago, like 20, 23, 2024. Like, you want to do this? He's like, yeah. Then turns himself into Michael Jackson. So if that's not already some head fuck for Jafar. Like, if we're gonna hear about Jafar in five years, I already know why. Okay, but don't get us started. Okay, so back to the whole point. Here's the problem. So the movie goes from like Jackson 5, so like he's like 8 or 10 years old up till like we're going to call it like the height of his career. So, you know, till bad. 87, 88. Right before. Right before 93, when Super bowl and Jordan Chandler thing comes out. So we're going to say like 15, 18 years worth of his career. And then they stop. But they had to stop. Because, I mean, I know, convenient. They had to stop. But Jordan Chandler, remember he didn't sign off on any of this. So he disappeared. So in order for them to work anything related to allegations into this movie, they needed his consent. He will not give consent. He's not involved. He has zero do with any of this. Never showed up again after 1993. Like just disappeared like all out. So like they. They couldn't legally do something. I guess they could have tried to work around it, not name names and all, but I think it would have whitewashed the whole thing. So they didn't do anything like that. And my argument also is by doing that, they kept it PG13. And PG13 is way better than rated R because PG13 is going to make them a lot more money.
• 38:41
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 38:42
  Speaker A: And like, back to your point of sort of like, is this a clapback? This is a perfect way of us celebrating all of the good parts of Michael Jackson. And I know there's still bad shit. But like, it's a way for us to feel good about ourselves. And when we lay down at night and we don't have to worry about anything anymore because we're just saying, oh my God, look at this great movie. Right?
• 39:01
  Speaker B: Like, so as they're watching this new movie, I think it's maybe important to. You said it earlier about just how you separate the athlete from the human side.
• 39:10
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:10
  Speaker B: But like, for anybody, for. I mean, let's just take the music industry because talking about it, right? Yeah. You have all of these celebrities. Britney Spears kind of comes to mind. Right. You've had Amanda Bynes, who was. I mean, she was in the music industry, but she was on television. Maybe she dabbled in music. I mean, we consume so much and no one ever takes a moment to even think about the fact that these people are human and that with us, I mean, we all have trauma. Like, think about their trauma. Think about what they're going through. And unless there's healthy people who aren't trying to exploit them for money, for stardom, for what they can one up or fill in the blank. But how do we stop that?
• 39:52
  Speaker A: Yeah, I like, with, with us, it's easy. Like, we don't have our lives on display, so it's like it's easy for us if we're. If we're melting down. You have Trent, I have my kids, whatever. Like, we have safe places to go. Number one. These people don't have safe places. If they did, they would have used them. So it's this weird. It's again, it's this weird sort of two sides. Because on the one hand, they are choosing to put their brokenness. I think of Britney Spears on display. I mean, you see her on TikTok. It's insane what she's doing. Right. So there's obviously something off there.
• 40:22
  Speaker B: But how is there not somebody who cares enough that's like, hey, I'm gonna take your phone away from you.
• 40:25
  Speaker A: Right, Right. We should. So the only thing that we as fans can do, then those are the ones where we just swipe past. We don't subscribe, we don't forward, we don't comment. Because she's unable to separate the musician from the human. So we have to help because she doesn't have her person. I think our job is to do the separation for her. And only when there is a album or something good to promote do we forward to our friends. And if there's something bad, we simply ignore. And I don't mean ignore like, screw them. I literally mean help them help themselves. And it's so easy for us not to do that because we're hiding behind our phones. So it's so easy for us to be like, oh, send. Did you see this, Amanda? Look what's going on? It's like, bullshit. Don't bother. Be one part. It's the same thing as recycling. You know what I mean? Where we're like, pick up the thing or do the thing. Nobody knows what you're doing in your own house. As far as recycling goes, when we did, we did our whole episode on Earth Day. It's the same thing. Do one little thing. This is our one little thing to
• 41:25
  Speaker B: help these people be a better person.
• 41:26
  Speaker A: Be a better. Yes, Just be a better person. That's it. Let's go. Don't subscribe. The content package.
• 41:33
  Speaker B: Someone's very passionate about this.
• 41:34
  Speaker A: I am. I am. It's my boy. My boy, Michael.
• 41:38
  Speaker B: We kind of like spiraled down here and it got real deep, real quick. So what fun facts you got for us?
• 41:43
  Speaker A: Oh, I got fun facts. I got so many fun facts about Michael Jackson. Here we go. Okay, number one, Thriller. Thriller, of course. How can we not start fun facts with Thriller? Thriller was almost not released as a single. Zip. Like, didn't even make it on the album. The title track. The album is called Thriller. Yes. I guess when Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones were like figuring all this out with the Epic record people, they said it was too scary. It was like a horror movie. And they were like, we don't think this is good and people won't like this. So I'm super glad that someone at Epic overruled them and put on the album because it went like, you know, viral. And at the time, much is the number one best selling album in the world. Super fun fact. The Thriller music video alone alone is estimated to have sold an extra 10 million copies of the album. Just when that video came out, people like, I don't even know this guy is whatever, but I'm gonna go buy the whole album. Yeah, I know.
• 42:35
  Speaker B: It's crazy, isn't it also crazy to think, like, one person could have had the power to stop that, to kibosh the whole thing?
• 42:40
  Speaker A: I know. Just like that. Yeah, they tried to do it with Queen too, if you remember. Bohemian Rhapsody. Yeah, same thing. Okay, number two. So remember how I said he was obsessive and crazy, like about humming and learning all the parts of all. Okay, so he did the same thing with Thriller. Okay. Back on Thriller, the music video. So he was so committed to that whole zombie choreography, you know, that like, people memorize and look at TikTok. Right? So first of all, he hired some guy named Michael Peters, Broadway choreographer, to do this with him to co choreograph. He learned every single extra persons zombie movements in the whole thing. Every one of them. Like all hundred people in the background that were, like, doing different things. He learned them all. So when they were on set and they were practicing, if he saw that one of them did something wrong, he went over and corrected them, of course, in a polite Michael way. I think that is insane. That's like. That is the genius.
• 43:25
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 43:26
  Speaker A: Also the OCD crazy, like skits, whatever things you want to say. Like every single part of all hundred zombies. I thought that one was wild. Okay, number three. Michael Jackson holds the Guinness book of world record for most charities supported by a single musician. Most charities, yes. During his lifetime, he either donated or supported to at least 40 different charities after he caught fire. You remember when he caught fire, his hair caught fire from, like the Pepsi commercial. Right. He donated $1.5 million to the Brotman Hospital in California to build a children's wing for their burn unit.
• 43:56
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 43:56
  Speaker A: He gets caught on fire, says, you know what? I'm going to build a children's wing for victims. That's crazy. He also co wrote and sang we are the World with his buddy Lionel Richie, which raised $63 million for African famine in 1985. $63 million in 1985 money. Thank you. And sad thing here, he's given all these different charities that is never mentioned. Nobody talks about.
• 44:17
  Speaker B: I've never heard about how much book
• 44:19
  Speaker A: of world record for most charities. We don't even talk like that doesn't come up in Michael Jackson talk.
• 44:23
  Speaker B: Well, it is not a hot to f bake.
• 44:25
  Speaker A: I think it's terrible.
• 44:25
  Speaker B: Not juicy enough.
• 44:27
  Speaker A: Okay, number four, this is it. That comeback tour he was going to do that we were talking about right before he died. He was turning 50 years old and he was going to do 50 shows at the O2 arena in London in 2009. He sold out 750,000 tickets. 750,000 tickets in under four hours.
• 44:43
  Speaker B: That's insane.
• 44:44
  Speaker A: Yes. And this was like right when he. I mean, he died. The world was deciding what they thought of Michael Jackson during that time, and still three quarters of a million people bought tickets and were like, I'm back in. Which I think is pretty awesome. But it was so sad because he died 17 days into rehearsing that thing, which is like, oh, My God. So he never got to experience the whole thing.
• 45:03
  Speaker B: Did they, like, finish the album? They finished the whole generated.
• 45:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Did the whole thing. And I was like, whatever. But it's like kind of sad. Like, here he was, he was going to try to really do something. Okay, sorry. Propofol. Okay. And finally, when Michael Jackson died on June 25, 2009, he broke the Internet. Of course he did. Right. Google thought it was under cyber attack because the search volume for Michael Jackson was so huge and so unprecedented that their systems did not process it. Twitter crashed. The whole Internet architecture and how information moves online was stress tested by Michael Jackson dying. That's insane. That is not just a pop star. That is a force of nature. That's my icon. That's my petty icon. Michael Jackson. That's all I got. Fun facts. How can you say petty icon? That's terrible that I say that. Like he's a pedophile and my icon. I can't do that. Right.
• 45:52
  Speaker B: And isn't it pedo, not petty.
• 45:53
  Speaker A: Pedophile, Pedo, Petty. Okay, okay. That's all I got. Fun facts out.
• 45:57
  Speaker B: That was a lot.
• 45:58
  Speaker A: I know it was a lot.
• 45:59
  Speaker B: This whole episode is just a lot.
• 46:00
  Speaker A: Here we are.
• 46:00
  Speaker B: But basically, we almost didn't have Thriller.
• 46:02
  Speaker A: We didn't.
• 46:03
  Speaker B: The fact that Michael Jackson gave to the most charities out of anyone in the world. Insane.
• 46:08
  Speaker A: Most money, most charities. That's insane.
• 46:10
  Speaker B: Right? His nephew is becoming him for this movie or has become.
• 46:14
  Speaker A: We got to do a whole episode on that by itself. We're gonna go back and figure this out. Yeah. And then the Internet broke, Right? So there. Who knew? Right?
• 46:21
  Speaker B: Who knew you could break the Internet?
• 46:23
  Speaker A: Broke it. Broke it. Just like that.
• 46:25
  Speaker B: Well, if anybody wants to experience more stuff, learn more about Michael Jackson or are now just like their interest has peaked and you wanted to, you know, do your own research. Where do you suggest we start first?
• 46:35
  Speaker A: If you guys want fun facts or the summary at the end that we always put together, you want to deliver to your inbox DM us on Instagram. We'll send it to you right away. Thank you so much for supporting us. Um, Amanda, first I'd say go just buy the album off the wall or listen to the album off the wall because it's like, it's insane. Put it on when you're making dinner. I don't even care. Just anything you can, because this is the most iconic. Michael Jackson, 20 years old, just broke free of Motown records. He's out on his own. Finds Quincy Jones. It's pure joy. I mean, it is pure joy listening to that album. 10 out of 10. Okay, second, I think I said it 100 times. Just please do your own research on allegations. Read everything. Figure out what you want to believe in. You need both sides. Watch Leaving Neverland. You can find it on. It's like streaming on DirecTV. Watch the response to Finding Neverland called Square One. Just make your own view. Don't let anybody else decide for you. You can't do a pick a side thing here, like everybody deserves respect. In this case, it's totally contested. Here we are. Just please do all that. And then last, like Amanda said, go see the movie, but go see the movie. Understanding why you're going to see the movie. Don't go see the movie and just be like, oh, I feel good now because Michael Jackson was awesome. Do a little research first and then go see the movie because it's more respectful to the victims and it's more respectful to Michael. Even though the movie's not about the victims. I'm saying it's more respectful because you decided to spend your money anyway and go appreciate good art. That's what I would say. And then if you don't want to do any of those things, just remember these details to seem sort of sophisticated. Number one, Michael Jackson grew up in a two room house in Gary, Indiana, performing professionally before he understood what performing professionally even meant. The machine that eventually consumed him, the label executives, the screaming crowds, the father who ran rehearsals started assembling around him when he was just 8 years old. He was 11. When I Want yout Back hit number one. He spent no meaningful part of his childhood living like a child and audiences who loved him were part of the machine from the beginning. Like it or not, Number two, Thriller is the best selling album in human history. The creative run from off the wall all the way through Bad is one of the most dominant stretches any artist has has ever had in any genre, ever. He restructured popular music music videos as a medium and racial gatekeeping on mainstream radio. He also spent his entire career broadcasting distress signals like we were talking about inside his music songs about being trapped, being lied to, being consumed, and the audience received them as entertainment and just wanted more. Like it or not, the allegations against him were never resolved in a way that satisfies everyone and probably won't be. He was acquitted criminally. The civil settlement was not an admission of guilt. The 2019 documentary is contested. Reasonable people looking at the same evidence reach different conclusions on this one. Holding that ambiguity is very uncomfortable. That's what we were trying to show today. But it's also the only honest position you could take, like it or not. And finally, his movie is going to be huge, like it or not. But the most important question, like we said earlier, isn't whether the film gets him right. It's what are we actually doing when we're buying our ticket? Do we believe we're watching because we actually want to learn something? Or are we watching because we just feel bad until the next, you know, fill in the blank, pop singer comes along, you get to decide. That's all.
• 49:44
  Speaker B: I got a hundred episodes. Here we are in the books. We went there.
• 49:48
  Speaker A: We did it.
• 49:48
  Speaker B: We started in a little house in Gary, Indiana, and ended up dealing with a way bigger question about what our own part in all of this really was. At the very least, we have to realize turning people into icons comes at a cost. No doubt his music was extraordinary, but the allegations were real and still unresolved. And you could argue his isolation was partly our doing. So was his death preventable? You can decide this for sure is not a simple story.
• 50:15
  Speaker A: It is not.
• 50:15
  Speaker B: He was a child that the world decided it owned. He was an artist who told us he was not okay in song after song for 30 years. He was a human being whose strangeness we made into a punchline right up until we made it into a eulogy. And now we are making it into a movie. And maybe that's the best we can do, but at least it's worth knowing that's what we're doing if we did our job. Today, you're walking away with something harder than an opinion. You're walking away with a question about what fame cost, about what audiences owe, about whether the machine has changed or whether we've just changed who's inside it. 100 episodes of asking uncomfortable questions. Thank you for being here for all of them. So hit subscribe, Leave a review. Share it with your friends. We would really appreciate it. Until next time, stay curious, stay honest, and remember, the most sophisticated thing you can do is hold two true things at once, even if one of them is about you.