Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Great Wolf Lodge Mom Packs Kitchen Knives, Hacks Hubby & Son, 3, Dead, @ End Of 3-week Vacay: Cops

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Great Wolf Lodge Mom Packs Kitchen Knives, Hacks Hubby & Son, 3, Dead, @ End Of 3-week Vacay: Cops · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Tonight, the so-called Great Wolf Lodge mom, we discover, actually
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: packs kitchen knives in her suitcase, then drives over two
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: hours to vacay at the luxury resort. then hacks her
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: husband and son, just three years old, dead with those knives.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: But what? She waits till the end of their three-week vacation. Tonight,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: relatives claiming that she said she never wanted to get
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: pregnant anyway. Well, now is a fine time to tell
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: us that. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: A family getaway at Great Wolf Lodge, Pennsylvania, turns into
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: a horrifying tragedy when a mother, father, and three-year-old child
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: are involved in a deadly stabbing. Investigators discover two knives
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: in the bathroom, neither belonging to the resort. Now, 27-year-old
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Metallica Rose Harrison faces two counts of criminal homicide in
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: the deaths of her husband and young son.
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: Yesterday, around three o'clock, members of the Pocono Township Police
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: Department received a call of a female in distress at
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Great Wolf Lodge, Room 2030. First responding officers arrived at
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: the scene and they assessed the situation and they found
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: two deceased victims in that room. A boy, age three,
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: and his father. The female also had injuries about her
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: and she was hospitalized while in police custody.
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: Metallica's husband, Charles's sister, gave a statement to police saying
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: that she believed that Metallica had been very controlling and
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: was keeping Charles away from his side of the family
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: for the past three years. Allegedly, Metallica had made statements
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: to family that she had never wanted to get pregnant
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: in the first place and that she Resented her son
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: because he was taking away from one-on-one time that she
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: was able to have with her husband.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: That from 2822 News. Red flags, body bags on TikTok.
• 2:21
  Speaker 5: What?
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Never wanted to get pregnant and she waits three years
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: to tell us that? Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories and we are live in the Poconos with
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: the latest. Straight out to Heidi Martins, investigative reporter with
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: 2822 News. lives less than 10 minutes away from the
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Great Wolf Lodge Resort. Now we're hearing a lot of confusion.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: How many stab wounds did the husband get versus the
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: little boy, just three years old? That's Tristan. Both murdered
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: on separate mattresses. At least two knives found, a big
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: butcher knife and a smaller knife. What, she needed two weapons?
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: What happened, Heidi?
• 3:06
  Speaker 6: We got the call in the next day from the
• 3:08
  Speaker 6: corner saying, listen, I'm confirming that there was a double homicide.
• 3:12
  Speaker 6: And then we didn't really find more out until later
• 3:15
  Speaker 6: Tuesday during the press conference when the district attorney, Mike Mancuso,
• 3:19
  Speaker 6: held that press conference and let us know that Metallica
• 3:22
  Speaker 6: Rose was in custody and her husband and three-year-old child
• 3:26
  Speaker 6: were found dead. And like you said, Nancy, there is
• 3:29
  Speaker 6: a lot of confusion right now. With who got stabbed
• 3:31
  Speaker 6: multiple times, the latest that we are hearing is that
• 3:34
  Speaker 6: the husband suffered from multiple stab wounds to the chest,
• 3:37
  Speaker 6: and the three-year-old, who is being identified as T.H., and
• 3:41
  Speaker 6: we later found out his name is Tristan, died from
• 3:44
  Speaker 6: a single stab wound to his chest.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: What can you tell me, Heidi Martins, about the Great
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Wolf Lodge Resort? I was looking at all of the pricing,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: and vacations can be up to $ 20. 2000 and beyond.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: And from what I understand, isn't it true that part
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: of the way through the vacation, she, mom, called and
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: extended the vacation? Three weeks, three-week vacation.
• 4:16
  Speaker 6: So they checked in September 21st, and then she extended
• 4:20
  Speaker 6: their stay on October 5th, to stay until October 13th.
• 4:25
  Speaker 6: So that is just weird in itself. I have never
• 4:28
  Speaker 6: been on a three week long vacation. Like you said,
• 4:31
  Speaker 6: Great Wolf is.
• 4:32
  Speaker 7: In my backyard.
• 4:33
  Speaker 6: I live less than 10 minutes away. I used to
• 4:36
  Speaker 6: get family Christmas pictures done there. And to think that
• 4:39
  Speaker 6: this is something happening in your own backyard.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Hey, Heidi Martins, we're showing shots of Great Lodge right now.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: You said you used to get family photos taken there.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: So you would go to Great Lodge and take photos.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Tell me about that.
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  Speaker 7: So when you walk in the lobby, they always decorate
• 4:57
  Speaker 7: it for Christmas. It's beautiful.
• 4:59
  Speaker 6: They have the tree. That's the lobby right there. And
• 5:03
  Speaker 6: they decorate everything so nicely. So a lot of people
• 5:06
  Speaker 6: into Poconos go. They get their family photos done there
• 5:09
  Speaker 6: and print it on your Christmas card.
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  Speaker 7: And it's just something magical. And now it's sad to
• 5:15
  Speaker 7: see some place that was so.
• 5:16
  Speaker 6: Magical to so many people in our area might just be...
• 5:20
  Speaker 6: another hotel of horrors, if you will.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Okay. I'll tell you why I'm asking straight out to
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: renowned detective investigator, John Bueller, former Modesto PD for years,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: robbery and homicide. One of the lead investigators in the
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Scott Peterson homicide and the deaths of Lacey Peterson and
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: their unborn son, Connor. I'll tell you why I'm asking
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: John Bueller. I remember trekking all around the neighborhood of
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Scott and Lacey Peterson. and looking into their home. And
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: their home was designed so beautifully. Lacey had done the
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: entire inside. You couldn't tell from the outside, but when
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: you looked inside, it was like a magazine, one of
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: those home decor magazines or like HGTV. She had worked
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: so hard on it. And it was right before Christmas
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: and the dichotomy of her having decorated everything for Christmas
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: and the home was so pretty and so carefully done.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: versus the reality that she was likely killed there and
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: dragged to his boat and then dumped in the cold
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: water of Modesto Bay. Just the visual, the dichotomy of that.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: And I get the same thing here. And Heidi Martins
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: captured it perfectly. And yes, John, I know tonight it's
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: all about the evidence and any probative facts that we
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: find out. But that is just chilling to me that
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: you hear Heidi talking about She and her family would
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: go there because it was so pretty. There's a place
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: like that in Georgia, Calloway Gardens. So beautiful, decorated for Christmas.
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  Speaker 1: People go in there and they just take candidates with
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: all the decorations behind them for their Christmas cards. And
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: the contrast about what happened to the dad who worshipped
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: his three-year-old little boy and the little boy. I mean,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: they were stabbed multiple times, John.
• 7:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Nancy, I kind of suggest pre-planning on the way
• 7:20
  Speaker 5: I look at it. Whenever you see something like this
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: where on the outside it's a perfect situation like Scott
• 7:25
  Speaker 5: and Lacey had, it's hiding that dark side of like
• 7:28
  Speaker 5: Scott had, but it's starting to trickle out now after
• 7:31
  Speaker 5: the tragedy, after the murders, that it wasn't exactly what
• 7:34
  Speaker 5: it seemed.
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: That is so disturbing.
• 7:36
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 7:38
  Speaker 8: Knowing that I'm living next to someone that did that.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've heard.
• 7:44
  Speaker 8: Sometimes like a lot of yelling at times, but that's
• 7:49
  Speaker 8: pretty much it.
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  Speaker 9: I haven't really been out running through the neighborhood. They
• 7:53
  Speaker 9: just stayed to buy themselves up the house. I've only
• 7:56
  Speaker 9: seen them out back with the little boy a couple
• 7:59
  Speaker 9: of times during the summer. I think it's very sad.
• 8:03
  Speaker 9: I didn't expect anything like that coming from this area.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Neighbors stunned. No indication of any violence, any problems within
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: the home. That's from WNEP. And I find that to
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: be true so often. To Dr. Janie Lacey joining us tonight.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: She is licensed psychotherapist, CEO of Life Counseling Solutions, author
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: of How to Heal from a Toxic Relationship, and the
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: star of Let's Talk About It with Janie Lacey.
• 8:32
  Speaker 10: Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Janie, their life was insta-perfect.
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  Speaker 11: Oh, hold on.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: I got another question for Heidi Martins, because I want
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: you to analyze this too, Dr. Janie. Heidi, from what
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: I've learned overnight, she, the mom, the great Wolf Lodge mom,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: was posting all of these happy Instas and TikToks and
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: so forth throughout the vacation. They're Insta-perfect family. I mean,
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: and the whole time, She reportedly has driven to Great
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Wolf Lodge Resort with butcher knives from home in her suitcase, Heidi.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: Is it true she was posting happy photos, family photos,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: happy family up until the stabbings?
• 9:20
  Speaker 6: Yes, and I also read that she actually FaceTimed her
• 9:24
  Speaker 6: stepmom and they were doing video calls together. and the
• 9:27
  Speaker 6: stepmother reported that they looked like a happy family on vacation.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know why.
• 9:32
  Speaker 6: Nobody questioned the three-week-long stay, but she said just a
• 9:36
  Speaker 6: few days before they were on FaceTime on a video call,
• 9:39
  Speaker 6: and everybody seemed to be happy, and we don't know
• 9:43
  Speaker 6: what happened after that.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: I've got a pretty good idea, Heidi Martins, because there's
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: three of them in the room. They're dead. She's alive.
• 9:52
  Speaker 11: Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Janie Lacey, back to you on the Insta Perfect family,
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  Speaker 1: the happy family shots that she posted and posted and posted.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: And there were extensive FaceTimes between her, the baby, Tristan,
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: the husband, Chaz, and their families. Extensive FaceTiming was done
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: during the vacation, Dr. Janie. How can that be?
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  Speaker 8: Because a picture, a video, to me, Nancy, is the
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  Speaker 8: cheapest thing in the world to control, right? I work
• 10:23
  Speaker 8: with people who live inside homes that look perfect from
• 10:27
  Speaker 8: the street, right? The posts were beautiful, as you mentioned,
• 10:29
  Speaker 8: but the marriage or the person was in crisis.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, social media, we know.
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  Speaker 8: That it rewards the highlight reel and the more a
• 10:38
  Speaker 8: person is hurting, to me, the harder they sometimes work
• 10:41
  Speaker 8: on the image. And, you know, I want to be
• 10:43
  Speaker 8: careful because I don't know what was happening inside this family,
• 10:45
  Speaker 8: but one set of photo tells us very little. A
• 10:48
  Speaker 8: smiling post doesn't prove trouble, but it doesn't prove peace either, Nancy.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: According to Metallica Rose's stepmother, April Thetga, there were no
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: signs of trouble. And as Heidi Martins is reporting, they
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: just had a huge Zoom.
• 11:09
  Speaker 12: With April Fetka, who is the stepmother of Metallica Rose.
• 11:12
  Speaker 12: And she said just hours before that she had a
• 11:15
  Speaker 12: conference call and there were no signs of trouble whatsoever
• 11:18
  Speaker 12: during this conference call. She said it wasn't an odd conversation.
• 11:22
  Speaker 12: She didn't give us any indication that anything was ever
• 11:25
  Speaker 12: going to happen.
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  Speaker 7: It was a loving family. We were just as shocked
• 11:29
  Speaker 7: as everybody else.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Guys, that is from one crime at a time. So
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure how that's going to play. So Mark
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Astor joining us, veteran defense attorney, former prosecutor at Astor
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Simovich Law, star of The Journey by Mark Astor podcast. Astor,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: are you cooking up a lancy-clancy defense tonight? Is that
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: what you're doing? You got really quiet. I haven't heard
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: you utter a word. You're just like absorbing all these
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: facts so you can jump up and say psychotic break.
• 12:08
  Speaker 13: Well, I'm certainly thinking about it, Nancy, because, you know,
• 12:11
  Speaker 13: I think we just heard, right? There was no sign
• 12:13
  Speaker 13: of trouble. We don't know anything about Metallica's mental health history.
• 12:17
  Speaker 13: Was she suffering from some type of postpartum psychosis? Was
• 12:21
  Speaker 13: she hearing these command hallucinations that we heard in the
• 12:25
  Speaker 13: Lindsay Clancy case? I mean, why take a three-week vacation.
• 12:29
  Speaker 11: If you're planning to kill your husband and the child?
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: How long can postpartum last?
• 12:34
  Speaker 11: Well, I don't... It doesn't.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Have to make sense. Just because you can't figure it
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: out doesn't mean it's not premeditated murder. For Pete's sake,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: postpartum almost four years later, did you actually just say that?
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Did he say... You did. You said postpartum.
• 12:50
  Speaker 11: I actually said that.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: You're going to find a way to make this psychotic
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: break because... What?
• 12:54
  Speaker 11: Well, I absolutely am.
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  Speaker 13: Because why would anybody plan a three-week vacation only to
• 12:59
  Speaker 13: commit a double homicide? That makes no sense. Why not
• 13:02
  Speaker 13: just kill him in the home? I mean, apparently she
• 13:05
  Speaker 13: raided the 401k to finance this. Why not raid the 401k,
• 13:09
  Speaker 13: kill the husband, kill the child, and then leave?
• 13:11
  Speaker 11: Why do that?
• 13:12
  Speaker 13: All of these things that we're hearing make absolutely no sense,
• 13:16
  Speaker 13: which leads me to the conclusion that maybe she was
• 13:18
  Speaker 13: suffering from some type of Mental health issue.
• 13:21
  Speaker 11: Was she suffering from a mental defect? We don't know yet.
• 13:24
  Speaker 11: We simply don't know. But to conclude that it was first-degree.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Murder, I think it's... I don't think greedy and angry
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: qualify as a mental defect.
• 13:34
  Speaker 13: Well, I think I'm going to respectfully disagree with you
• 13:37
  Speaker 13: because I think the proverbial jury is still out on this, Nancy,
• 13:40
  Speaker 13: and we know nothing about her history in.
• 13:42
  Speaker 11: Terms of her mental health. Was she taking medications?
• 13:46
  Speaker 7: I do.
• 13:46
  Speaker 11: Had she seen a therapist?
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: I do. Because according to family, isn't this true? Dave
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: Mack joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter. He, like Heidi,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: has been on the case from the very beginning. Dave,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: according to family, reportedly on both sides of the family
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: tree say she never had any mental illness and no
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: emotional instability leading up to this. That's why everyone is
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: so stunned, Dave Mack.
• 14:14
  Speaker 11: Absolutely, Nancy.
• 14:15
  Speaker 10: They are totally shocked because there was no warning, no
• 14:19
  Speaker 10: history of any kind of mental illness, not even slight depression, Nancy.
• 14:24
  Speaker 10: That's why this has hit the entire family, both sides,
• 14:27
  Speaker 10: so hard.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Also, we know that she, Metallica Rose Harrison, personally extended
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: the vacation and drained her husband's 401k in order to
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: do it.
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: This family had been living at the Great Wolf Lodge
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: for about three weeks. And when the story first came out,
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: everyone was wondering why they had been there so long.
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: They had actually just extended their stay to stay a
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: little longer. And the police were curious about that too.
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: So they went and searched their home in Tawanda and
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: asked some of the neighbors questions about the family. When
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: they first walked up to the house, they found an
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: electric shutoff notice attached to the door. And one of
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: the neighbors said that they hadn't seen the family in
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: about a month.
• 15:08
  Speaker 14: It was originally a week.
• 15:10
  Speaker 7: They extended it.
• 15:11
  Speaker 14: Up until October 13th. So it was 22 days in total. Okay,
• 15:15
  Speaker 14: she drained his 401k for it. Did he not ask
• 15:18
  Speaker 14: at any point in time, how are we affording this?
• 15:21
  Speaker 7: Why are we still here? Y'all, their child was three
• 15:23
  Speaker 7: years old.
• 15:24
  Speaker 14: If you've been to a Great Wolf Lodge, you know
• 15:26
  Speaker 14: the array of things a three-year-old.
• 15:28
  Speaker 7: Child can do is very, very small. What did he
• 15:31
  Speaker 7: go down.
• 15:32
  Speaker 14: The lazy river like 50,000 times?
• 15:36
  Speaker 7: Why would you do that?
• 15:37
  Speaker 14: Why would you spend 22 days at a Great Wolf Lodge.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: That is from TikTok at red flags and body bags
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: and the spilled tea time.
• 15:46
  Speaker 11: Okay.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Heidi Martins joining us, investigative reporter joining us from there
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: at the Poconos. When she just said that 22 days,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: it hit me. 22 days. That is a long vacation.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: But according to everything that I'm seeing, there was an
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: indoor water park. So there's a lot for children to
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: do there.
• 16:10
  Speaker 7: I think that there's a lot to do.
• 16:12
  Speaker 6: I do believe that 22 days, it might just get repetitive.
• 16:16
  Speaker 6: I did see that the sun loved water parks, and
• 16:20
  Speaker 6: this was something that they did often, as we saw
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: in previous pictures. However, I do believe that three weeks
• 16:27
  Speaker 6: is incredibly extensive. And like you said, how is the
• 16:31
  Speaker 6: husband not questioning where the money is coming from? And
• 16:35
  Speaker 6: they did find in the search warrant that there were
• 16:38
  Speaker 6: diaries picked out and different journals. So I think if
• 16:42
  Speaker 6: those are read in the preliminary hearing that I will
• 16:44
  Speaker 6: be covering, we are going to learn so much more
• 16:47
  Speaker 6: about this case and maybe a little bit more behind
• 16:49
  Speaker 6: the scenes of what was going on.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: John Buehler, there's plenty for a child to do at
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: a water park. I remember during the Tottenham Casey Anthony case,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: when I took the whole family and we all stayed
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: in Orlando, I would get out of the courthouse and
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: we would go straight to the Lazy River. We would
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: be in the Lazy River for hours, hours, trying to
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: make the twins tired. And they loved it, much less
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: all those slides and all the other attractions.
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: Nancy, when we're talking about this and looking at this,
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: it kind of pushes you over towards that domestic violence wheel,
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: the power and control wheel, where there was some word
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: from family members that Metallica was trying to keep the
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: husband isolated from his side of the family. So it
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: still goes along with the emotional control, the making them
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: feel guilty, the guilt trips that they put on them.
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: There could be some economic control that she's trying to exert.
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: I'm going to leave the marriage if we don't do this.
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: And you kind of wonder, well, what's going on with
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: him at his workplace? How is he able to get
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: three weeks off in a row? I understand he works
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: for a cabinet company. Maybe it's a slow time of
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: the year. But still, when I look at all these things,
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: it goes to pre-planning to me, You know, the knife,
• 18:09
  Speaker 5: of course, is obvious when you bring two knives from
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: home to do this.
• 18:13
  Speaker 11: Pretty obvious.
• 18:14
  Speaker 5: But even, you know, with the defense attorney trying to,
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: you know, say that it could be a situation where
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: it's not guilty by reason of insanity. Interesting take. Love
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: to be back and forth with him on that. I
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: think he'd be a worthy adversary in court when it
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: comes to that.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Well, another issue, in addition to Mark Astor joining us
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: out of Boca Raton, Florida, In addition to the very
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: long FaceTimes just before the two murders, Mommy was sending
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: daily photos of all the fun they were having and
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: describing this wonderful day, Mark Astor. Yeah.
• 18:53
  Speaker 13: In fact, I think the conduct, sending the photographs and
• 18:56
  Speaker 13: then just a few hours later killing the husband and child,
• 18:59
  Speaker 13: I think tells us a lot about what was going
• 19:01
  Speaker 13: on up here, how sick she potentially was. I mean,
• 19:04
  Speaker 13: why spend three weeks.
• 19:05
  Speaker 11: At a water park hotel? Well, that we know of.
• 19:11
  Speaker 11: That we know of.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, under your reasoning, everybody behind bars right now
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: on murder one had a mental illness. That's simply not true.
• 19:20
  Speaker 15: Oh, yes.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: And then the resentment.
• 19:23
  Speaker 16: Metallica is now being described as a resentful mother. She
• 19:27
  Speaker 16: resented her son for stealing her husband's attention. According to
• 19:31
  Speaker 16: the allegations, she was dominant and controlling. She would state
• 19:35
  Speaker 16: things like she never wanted to get pregnant. She would
• 19:38
  Speaker 16: also apparently make statements that their three-year-old was taking away
• 19:42
  Speaker 16: one-on-one time that she might have had with Charles.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: That from at ktoss519 on TikTok. Heidi Martins, what can
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: you tell me about that? Telling people she never wanted
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: to get pregnant? I mean, that cow's out of the barn.
• 19:58
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that says a lot.
• 20:00
  Speaker 6: Her family always, it was actually Charles Harrison's family, that
• 20:04
  Speaker 6: stated she was resentful from the beginning. She wasn't getting
• 20:07
  Speaker 6: enough time with her husband. And then you think about
• 20:11
  Speaker 6: the knives that she brought in some sort of way.
• 20:14
  Speaker 6: Maybe she was trying to let her family enjoy the
• 20:17
  Speaker 6: last few days there. Again, we might not ever know
• 20:19
  Speaker 6: the answers to those questions, but it did seem that
• 20:23
  Speaker 6: there were a lot more pictures posted of the husband
• 20:26
  Speaker 6: and child than with the mother and child. We did
• 20:29
  Speaker 6: see a few, but it looked like they The father
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: and the son really did have a special bond.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: What does this mean, Dr. Janie Lacey, that she had
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: voiced anger over the little boy stealing her alone time
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: with her husband?
• 20:48
  Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, I want to say this clearly because I
• 20:50
  Speaker 8: know there's going to be mothers watching tonight. You know,
• 20:53
  Speaker 8: ambivalence about motherhood, it's actually very common, Nancy, that anyone admits,
• 20:57
  Speaker 8: but But plenty of women feel that they'll feel overwhelmed,
• 21:01
  Speaker 8: trapped or grieving their old life, especially in their early years.
• 21:04
  Speaker 8: But almost none of them, none of them.
• 21:06
  Speaker 7: Would ever harm a child.
• 21:08
  Speaker 8: So I think feeling that way doesn't make you dangerous.
• 21:10
  Speaker 8: I mean, it makes you human and it's something to
• 21:14
  Speaker 8: for people to say. But what matters is what happens
• 21:17
  Speaker 8: when those feelings go unspoken and untreated and when they're
• 21:20
  Speaker 8: combined with other things like isolation and rage and hopelessness
• 21:23
  Speaker 8: and a sense of being trapped and And I don't
• 21:26
  Speaker 8: know what, if anything, applied here in this case, but
• 21:29
  Speaker 8: I think that statement came from a relative, you know,
• 21:32
  Speaker 8: not her, but I do think that says a lot
• 21:34
  Speaker 8: about her, not about necessarily motherhood, because that's actually, that
• 21:39
  Speaker 8: ambivalence is very common.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter. I want to hear
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: more about the number of stab wounds, because very often,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: and John Buehler and Dr. Kendall Crowns will weigh in
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: on this, if you see you're the real target has
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: the most stab wounds. I mean, that indicates motivation, not
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: that the state has to prove motivation, but there's been
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: a lot of confusion about who was stabbed multiple times
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: and who was stabbed only once. What do we know
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: at this hour tonight, Dave Mack?
• 22:14
  Speaker 10: Nancy, you're absolutely right in the way this has been confused,
• 22:18
  Speaker 10: not by the press, but by those investigating this case.
• 22:22
  Speaker 10: We were first told that Charles Harrison was stabbed once
• 22:26
  Speaker 10: in the chest and that it was Tristan, the three-year-old
• 22:31
  Speaker 10: toddler who was stabbed multiple times in the chest. But
• 22:36
  Speaker 10: That was then changed by investigators who said that it
• 22:40
  Speaker 10: was actually Tristan that was stabbed multiple times in the
• 22:44
  Speaker 10: chest and Charles was only stabbed once. So depending on
• 22:50
  Speaker 10: which is the truth, Nancy, we can see that the
• 22:54
  Speaker 10: frustration and anger is at the one who was stabbed
• 22:58
  Speaker 10: the most. In the case of it being, I remember
• 23:02
  Speaker 10: how shocked we were when we were told that It
• 23:04
  Speaker 10: was the three-year-old Tristan who had been stabbed all those times.
• 23:08
  Speaker 11: How shocking that is.
• 23:09
  Speaker 10: That's the child that's going to be the person who
• 23:11
  Speaker 10: gives you the least fight. Whereas Charles stabbed only once.
• 23:17
  Speaker 10: So depending on what's the truth, that's who she's going after.
• 23:20
  Speaker 10: That's where the frustration is.
• 23:22
  Speaker 17: Looks like there's some confusion on how many times Charles
• 23:26
  Speaker 17: Harrison and Harrison were stabbed. So when we first reported it,
• 23:31
  Speaker 17: We had Charles Harrison stabbed multiple times and Harrison stabbed
• 23:36
  Speaker 17: only once. But now reports are saying that's reverse. They're
• 23:40
  Speaker 17: saying Charles Harrison was stabbed once and Harrison was stabbed
• 23:46
  Speaker 17: multiple times.
• 23:48
  Speaker 12: She said, and I quote, I was told the sharp
• 23:50
  Speaker 12: bladed weapons came from her home, her house. So to me,
• 23:54
  Speaker 12: it was planned. According to police, the large butcher weapon
• 23:58
  Speaker 12: was found on the bathroom floor and And the smaller
• 24:01
  Speaker 12: one was found in the bathroom sink. As for motive,
• 24:04
  Speaker 12: according to her stepmom, she says they were always happy
• 24:08
  Speaker 12: and that this is devastating. They do not know of
• 24:10
  Speaker 12: a motive.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Tear Talk on YouTube and One Crime at a Time
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: on TikTok. And reminder to everyone, Metallica Rose Harrison, tonight,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: as we go to air, is innocent. She is presumed
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: innocent under the law. And she remains innocent until tomorrow.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: That presumption is pierced by evidence from the state, if
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: that happens, proving her guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: for tonight, she's innocent. Straight out to special guest joining
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: us tonight, Dr. Kendall Crowns. He is the chief medical
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: examiner of Tarrant County in Fort Worth, and he is
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: a star of a podcast, Mayhem in the Morgue. He
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: at TCU. Dr. Kendall Crowns, how could police potentially have
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: been wrong about the number of stab wounds at the
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: scene through no fault of their own?
• 25:12
  Speaker 15: Often with stab wound cases or sharp force injury cases,
• 25:16
  Speaker 15: there's a lot of blood and depending on how long
• 25:19
  Speaker 15: the body's been laying there, the blood can congeal and
• 25:22
  Speaker 15: dry and it can get matted with the clothing and
• 25:24
  Speaker 15: the the bedding that is at the scene. So they
• 25:29
  Speaker 15: don't address the body at the scene. They don't clean
• 25:32
  Speaker 15: the body up. So all they have is a body
• 25:34
  Speaker 15: covered in blood, dried blood. So you can't properly get
• 25:38
  Speaker 15: an assessment of the amount of wounds. Often they'll think
• 25:41
  Speaker 15: that there's more than one just because of the amount
• 25:44
  Speaker 15: of blood. Then at autopsy, what is done is the
• 25:47
  Speaker 15: body is the clothing is removed. The body is washed.
• 25:50
  Speaker 15: The blood is kind of taken off and it exposes
• 25:53
  Speaker 15: all the injuries. And that's usually when a proper assessment
• 25:57
  Speaker 15: can be made. I've had that happen a number of
• 25:59
  Speaker 15: times where they think there's just one wound and then
• 26:02
  Speaker 15: it turns out to be 30. So it's not unusual
• 26:05
  Speaker 15: for the first responders, the law enforcement at the scene,
• 26:08
  Speaker 15: to make a underestimate of the amount of wounds because
• 26:11
  Speaker 15: of all the dried blood. So it obscures the wounds.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Dr. Kendall-Crowns, you and I analyzed for weeks the Jody
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Arias case where Travis Alexander was stabbed. I say 30 times.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Other people say 28 times. And you and I discussed
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: overlapping stab wounds. What is the significance of overlapping stab
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: wound possibility in this case?
• 26:38
  Speaker 15: Overlapping stab wounds, you can have an individual who's stabbed
• 26:41
  Speaker 15: where they put the one wound in and another wound
• 26:43
  Speaker 15: kind of over the top of it or in the
• 26:45
  Speaker 15: same wound. So you'll get separate wound courses within the
• 26:49
  Speaker 15: body through the same wound. And it'll kind of obscure
• 26:53
  Speaker 15: the exact number of wounds that you have. In a
• 26:56
  Speaker 15: situation like this with a child, he's probably easily controlled
• 27:00
  Speaker 15: by the mother. She could sit on him, put her
• 27:02
  Speaker 15: hand on his shoulder, and then just continue to stab
• 27:05
  Speaker 15: him over and over. So you may have a lower
• 27:08
  Speaker 15: amount or more wounds than you can assess because so
• 27:11
  Speaker 15: many are in the same spot overlapping.
• 27:15
  Speaker 5: Dr.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Crowns, reportedly, there were two weapons found. One was a
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: butcher knife and one was a regular steak knife. Now,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: that's open to interpretation, but how can you tell which
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: weapon was used on which victim as you are trying
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: to analyze tool marks?
• 27:40
  Speaker 15: So, it depends on the nature of the knives. Usually,
• 27:44
  Speaker 15: a butcher knife has a much kind of thicker aspect
• 27:48
  Speaker 15: than a steak knife, so the wounds caused by the
• 27:51
  Speaker 15: steak knife potentially won't be as wide as the wound
• 27:54
  Speaker 15: caused by the butcher knife, although the steak knife can
• 27:57
  Speaker 15: be plunged in and then moved down, making a bigger wound,
• 28:01
  Speaker 15: so that assessment can always be up to interpretation. Another thing,
• 28:05
  Speaker 15: often steak knives have serrations to them, meaning they have
• 28:09
  Speaker 15: little teeth on them, so that could leave serration marks
• 28:12
  Speaker 15: on the body that you could differentiate with. But again,
• 28:15
  Speaker 15: of course, the butcher knife can't make a smaller wound
• 28:19
  Speaker 15: than its smallest point. So technically, with a butcher knife,
• 28:23
  Speaker 15: the smallest wound would be along the tip edge of it.
• 28:29
  Speaker 7: Dr.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Kendall-Crowns, I recall distinctly on prior occasions discussing with you
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: and other medical examiners the use of bite marks, which
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: I find very dis... sus. I would be very hard-pressed
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: to use bite marks unless I really had to, unless
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: the biter had a very, very unusual set of teeth,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: you know, like fangs, because it's like biting into jello, right?
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: So you can't tell the human flesh is moving, it's pliable.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: How do you look at human flesh and determine the
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: serration edge i mean it can be done it is
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: done it's done scientifically but how is it done how
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: can you look at a wound on a human body
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: and go oh yeah that's from this knife and that's
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: from that knife how do you do.
• 29:29
  Speaker 15: That so bite mark uh the uh the background on
• 29:36
  Speaker 15: bite marks of course the science behind that has changed
• 29:39
  Speaker 15: extensively in we don't really use bite marks so much anymore.
• 29:42
  Speaker 15: We'll swab them for DNA. But with serrations on a knife,
• 29:46
  Speaker 15: I don't have a serrated knife here, but what it
• 29:49
  Speaker 15: is is the knife is dragged across the skin. The
• 29:52
  Speaker 15: serrations will actually leave abrasions along the skin surface that
• 29:57
  Speaker 15: will match up to the knife. Now, if the knife
• 29:59
  Speaker 15: is just stuck into the body and then pulled out,
• 30:03
  Speaker 15: the serrations won't matter. It will still leave just a
• 30:07
  Speaker 15: typical stab wound. The only way to differentiate a serrated
• 30:10
  Speaker 15: knife from an actual knife is if they drag it
• 30:13
  Speaker 15: across the skin surface.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: And also, Dr. Kendall-Crowns, isn't it true that what you
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: do in the morgue, you don't just look at it
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: with the naked eye. You actually look at the tissue
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: under a microscope. And when you look at it under
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: a microscope, it becomes very plain that the knife was
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: either serrated or not. How?
• 30:38
  Speaker 15: So microscopic analysis of the tissue would not show any
• 30:42
  Speaker 15: difference in the wound pattern for a serrated versus a
• 30:46
  Speaker 15: non-serrated knife. It would be impossible to tell with microscopy.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Well, then how do you do it?
• 30:52
  Speaker 15: How do you tell it's the skin surface? With the
• 30:55
  Speaker 15: scratching on the skin surface from the knife, you can
• 30:57
  Speaker 15: tell that it's a serrated knife because a normal knife
• 31:01
  Speaker 15: that has no serrations will not leave those patterned abrasions
• 31:04
  Speaker 15: on the skin surface.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: What are patterned abrasions? Could you put it in regular
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: people's words?
• 31:10
  Speaker 15: A serration, basically, let's say my fingers are the serration.
• 31:14
  Speaker 15: You have up and down levels to the knife. as
• 31:17
  Speaker 15: they're scratching across the skin surface, it leaves abrasions or
• 31:21
  Speaker 15: scratches on the skin surface. And that way, when you
• 31:24
  Speaker 15: see those patterned abrasions on the body, you know it's
• 31:28
  Speaker 15: a serrated knife that you can match up to the
• 31:31
  Speaker 15: knife found at the scene of the crime.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: And you can see that with the naked eye?
• 31:37
  Speaker 11: Yes.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: That's amazing to me, Dr. Kendall-Crowns. You just taught me
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: something new. The reason I care, out to John Buehler.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Why so much emphasis tonight on which knife, how many
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: stab wounds? Because very often, and this may be anecdotal,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: I don't have a statistic on this, but I'm wondering
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: what you've observed. When you have two victims, the target
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: will have more wounds. For instance, we talked about it
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: a lot in the Idaho murders of the four slain
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: University of Idaho students. Who was beaten the most? Who
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: was stabbed the most? and it was believed that that
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: person was the original target. Explain the thinking of that,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: John Buehler, and have you seen it before?
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: Well, we did see it, Nancy. We saw it in
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: a few cases. When there was a lot of emotion
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: involved in a domestic relationship and somebody killed another person,
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: especially with a knife, we saw kind of what we're
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: talking about here. Now, of course, it's not really plain
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: for sure yet who received the most wounds, but when
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: you see multiple, over and over, wounds, it suggests that
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: it was kind of like an overkill. People like to
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: use that term. But that suggested to us that somebody
• 32:47
  Speaker 5: was pretty darn angry at the person that they were killing,
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: and they just went to the extent of having to
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: go kind of like crazy on the body. Now, this
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: would bear well for Mark on his case if Tristan
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: had the most wounds. And you take a look at
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: the pictures of him and what a cute little guy
• 33:04
  Speaker 5: he is. That might actually help Mark when it comes
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: to that not guilty by reason of insanity defense, because
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: to think of somebody to be able to stab this
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: little guy numerous times versus probably an ambush kill on
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: the husband if it was one wound to the chest
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: to take him out of the equation, then she would
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: have all the time in the world to go over
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: and kill Tristan. I would be looking at options like
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: that when I'm putting the case together and conversing with
• 33:30
  Speaker 5: the DA and the forensic pathologist to see if we
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: could establish possibly a chain of events on that that
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: would make some sense to the jury.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Put up Buehler. Buehler, as long as I have known you,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: which goes all the way back to before the Scott
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Peterson murder trial, I've agreed with what you said. Until tonight.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Because you're saying, don't make me replay it. This helps
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Astor in his insanity defense because how could you stab
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: this little kid You know when I put that notion
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: out of my mind? When I had a two-year-old little
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: girl who was forever brain damaged. She would lie in
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: a bed the rest of her life. Not only beaten horribly.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Not only a two-year-old little girl. But she was covered
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: in sick. And I looked over at the guy. And
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: he looked at me like he wanted to kill me.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: He was no more insane than you are. Why ask why?
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: That's one of the times it hit me like a
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: cement block. You don't have to be insane under the
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: law to kill a child. Children get killed every what?
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: How many minutes, Jackie? Every number of minutes a child dies.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: And everyone, every child killer is not insane. You did
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: hear yourself right.
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I don't really think that we disagree on
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: this at all. What I'm talking about is that lowest
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: common denominator on the jury. They call it 12 rocks
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: in a box with three alternates or something like that.
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: When it comes to this, if you've got one weak
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: juror that doesn't understand this the way we do, because
• 35:25
  Speaker 5: I totally agree with you that you don't have to
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: be insane.
• 35:28
  Speaker 11: To kill people.
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: Oftentimes I've heard people ask me, well, how do you
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: make sense of this? Well, you don't make sense of it.
• 35:34
  Speaker 5: You can't make sense out of something that doesn't make sense.
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: But what I'm thinking about is when it comes to Mark,
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: this might be something that would help him in his
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: quest to try and convince one weak juror that she
• 35:46
  Speaker 5: was insane, when I don't think that she was. The
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: pre-planning suggests that all along. The fact that she wasn't
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: paying attention to things at the home, let the power
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: get turned off, I get the impression that Charles was
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: this wonderful husband that's trying to keep the family together,
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: doesn't want to get a divorce, doesn't want his child
• 36:03
  Speaker 5: to be going between both parents or something like that.
• 36:06
  Speaker 5: So he's acquiescing to everything that Metallica is doing to
• 36:10
  Speaker 5: try and keep this family together to the point where
• 36:13
  Speaker 5: she just kind of has free reign of it and
• 36:15
  Speaker 5: ends up doing this. I don't think that she's insane,
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: but I'm worried about the one-week juror that could be
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: on that panel.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Bueller, they had money. They had money for a 22-day
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: stay at Great Wolf Lodge Resort, thousands and thousands of dollars.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: It's just how she chose to spend it. And I
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: believe that's some kind of a control issue, which I'm
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: going to have to go to Dr. Jamie Lacey on
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: because you work and you work. You know how long
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I've been saving for the twins college? Since I was pregnant,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: when you and I first met, when I was back
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: at HLN, That's 19 years and counting. I've saved for
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: their college. And if I came home and happened to
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: think to look at the account and saw my husband
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: drained it, oh, fur would fly. That's some kind of
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: freaky control thing that I don't understand. I just, you know,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: I've never thought about that until you are saying this, Bueller.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Using money as a weapon. I don't mean like when
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: we have domestic violence cases where the husband puts the,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: typically husband, wife, man, woman, puts the woman on a
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: budget and freaks out whenever she goes to Dollar Tree
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: and spends over $ 20, whatever. But draining accounts and then
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: not paying the electric bill, that's a whole type of
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: weaponry I had not thought about. But I just want to,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: while we were sitting here, Jackie looked it up. One
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: child killed every six minutes. And let me tell you something, Bueller,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: they're not all legally insane. Legally insane means you don't
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: know right from wrong at the time you do it.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: And this mom actually said, I'm sorry. She knew what
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: she did was wrong. Listen to this.
• 38:13
  Speaker 18: There's CCTV footage of her and Charles going to an
• 38:16
  Speaker 18: arcade without their three-year-old. Why are you going to the
• 38:19
  Speaker 18: arcade without your three-year-old at almost 11 o'clock at night
• 38:21
  Speaker 18: and then you return back 40 minutes later? Was the
• 38:24
  Speaker 18: three-year-old already deceased at this point? We have absolutely no idea.
• 38:28
  Speaker 18: And then in the next morning, Charles was gone too.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Oh, my stars. Laugh and Grind official on TikTok is
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: raising the specter that she had already killed the baby
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: before she and the husband go to the arcade. Apparently
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: the husband didn't know if that is true. I find
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: that hard to believe. I find that hard to believe.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: But Mark Astor, she went on a Clancy rant. Listen.
• 38:53
  Speaker 16: They checked in on September 21st, and on October 5th,
• 38:56
  Speaker 16: they extended their stay even longer. By October 12th, Metallica
• 39:00
  Speaker 16: was calling police, saying that she had just taken a
• 39:03
  Speaker 16: knife to both her husband and her son. and that
• 39:07
  Speaker 16: she tried to take her own life. And then remember,
• 39:09
  Speaker 16: when EMT got there, started having these really disturbing rants,
• 39:13
  Speaker 16: asking EMS if they could tell her where her, how
• 39:16
  Speaker 16: deep her vein in her neck actually was for the
• 39:18
  Speaker 16: next time. She started saying how every day she worked
• 39:20
  Speaker 16: so hard to be the best person, best mother, best wife,
• 39:23
  Speaker 16: wasn't supposed to end like this.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: That's at ktoss 519 um hold on mark aster 9
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: 1 1 hi i'm great wolf lodge mom here and
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: i'm currently having a psychotic break but i wanted to
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: call and tell you that i just killed my husband
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: and child and i'm sorry and they're both lying dead
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: in there okay see ya really She calls 911.
• 39:52
  Speaker 11: Okay. So she called 911. So what?
• 39:55
  Speaker 13: I mean, the idea that she would take a three-week
• 39:57
  Speaker 13: vacation just to kill her husband and the child seems,
• 40:02
  Speaker 13: to be honest with you, just a tad absurd. I mean,
• 40:04
  Speaker 13: why not just kill them at home and be done
• 40:06
  Speaker 13: with it? I mean, why take the money? Why spend
• 40:09
  Speaker 13: three weeks there? And the fact that she called 911, again,
• 40:12
  Speaker 13: I don't think that in and of itself shows guilt
• 40:15
  Speaker 13: for premeditated murder. I think it tells us a lot
• 40:17
  Speaker 13: about her state of mind. And we have to question,
• 40:20
  Speaker 13: what was her state of mind? And as you correctly
• 40:22
  Speaker 13: pointed out, Nancy, did she meet the legal.
• 40:24
  Speaker 11: Definition for insanity?
• 40:25
  Speaker 13: At the time she killed them. We don't know yet.
• 40:29
  Speaker 13: I'm sure we're going to find out at some point.
• 40:31
  Speaker 13: But there's a lot of things here that don't add up.
• 40:33
  Speaker 13: And a lot of these things point to the fact
• 40:35
  Speaker 13: that she was not playing with a full deck. Now,
• 40:37
  Speaker 13: whether or not that was legally insane, we'll.
• 40:40
  Speaker 11: Have to wait.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Is that your new definition of insanity? I direct your
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: attention to... to the old McNaughton rule, which was brought
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: to our country under common law from Great Britain 200
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: years ago plus, and it still stands. It's the gold standard.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: It's not not playing with a full deck. It is
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: you do not know right from wrong at the time
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: of the incident. He was pictured on that video coming
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: back to the room with her. And how much later
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Heidi Martins was there. The 911 call, like a couple
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: of hours?
• 41:18
  Speaker 6: It was actually, so they were seen in the room
• 41:20
  Speaker 6: the night before leaving the room. And they came back,
• 41:23
  Speaker 6: like you said, they left the three-year-old for roughly 40
• 41:26
  Speaker 6: minutes alone while the husband and the mom went down
• 41:30
  Speaker 6: to the arcade.
• 41:30
  Speaker 7: And he was not seen with them. And then the
• 41:32
  Speaker 7: next day.
• 41:33
  Speaker 6: Around 3.13 in the afternoon is when police received the call,
• 41:38
  Speaker 6: a suicidal call from this Metallica Rose.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: Dr.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Kendall-Crowns, how will they be able to determine the time
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: of death as it relates to the 911 call?
• 41:49
  Speaker 15: Actually, it will be difficult to determine because the fact
• 41:52
  Speaker 15: that they've bled out from being stabbed means there'll be
• 41:56
  Speaker 15: less blood for bacteria to consume. So your postmortem interval
• 42:00
  Speaker 15: will be altered by the fact that there's less blood
• 42:03
  Speaker 15: in the bodies, depending on if there's air conditioning in
• 42:07
  Speaker 15: the rooms. There's so many factors that come into play,
• 42:10
  Speaker 15: it'll be difficult to say how long they've actually been dead.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Well, Dr. Kendall-Crowns, what if their bodies are still warm?
• 42:18
  Speaker 15: Bodies are still warm. Again, depending on the husband's weight,
• 42:23
  Speaker 15: if he's obese, which he kind of appears in the photographs,
• 42:27
  Speaker 15: that can be insulating and it can make your body
• 42:29
  Speaker 15: temperature stay at a certain temperature and you can't use
• 42:33
  Speaker 15: the time frame. of how cool the body is compared
• 42:36
  Speaker 15: to the surroundings or what their normal body temperature would
• 42:38
  Speaker 15: be to determine postmortem interval. Child's going to have less
• 42:42
  Speaker 15: body mass, so he's going to cool quicker. So again,
• 42:45
  Speaker 15: that will alter the postmortem interval calculation based on temperature.
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know what you just said, but Bueller, if
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: the bodies are still warm and the blood is fresh
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: and not coagulated, that tells me that they were just murdered.
• 43:02
  Speaker 5: No, I've heard the same thing that the doctor said,
• 43:06
  Speaker 5: and I totally agree with him. But this is one
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: of the things that comes in with first responders when
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: they get there. Accurate observation and documentation of the crime
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: scene when you get there. How wet the blood was.
• 43:16
  Speaker 5: Was it skinned over or anything like that? What are
• 43:20
  Speaker 5: the condition of the eyes? Do they still have some
• 43:22
  Speaker 5: wetness to them or are they glazed over? These are
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: things that hopefully the first responding uniformed officers would do
• 43:28
  Speaker 5: when they get there so they can document those things.
• 43:30
  Speaker 5: That's the type of information that we want to feed
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: to the forensic pathologist when it comes time for the
• 43:35
  Speaker 5: autopsy so that they can use that to help them
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: make a determination. Now, if it was a situation where
• 43:40
  Speaker 5: the child was dead for a long period of time,
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: maybe a day or so, there may be some difference
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: that the forensic pathologist would be able to pick up on.
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: But I've had great luck in dealing with forensic pathologists
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: over the years. They're highly skilled. They do it right,
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: in my experience, most of the time, And in this case,
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: like with Dr. Kendall Crown, I'd have absolute confidence that
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: he would come up with the right determination.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Reminder to everyone, Metallica Rose Harrison, tonight, as we go
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: to air, is innocent. She is presumed innocent under the law.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: And she remains innocent until that presumption is pierced. By
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: evidence from the state, if that happens... proving her guilty
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: beyond a reasonable doubt. But for tonight, she's innocent. If
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: you know or think you know anything regarding this case,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: please dial Pocono Township PD 570-629-7200. We remember American hero
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: Deputy Sheriff Joe Crumpton, Spalding County Sheriff's Georgia, passed away
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: in the line of duty, leaving behind a wife-turned-widow, Rosalie,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: and seven Children without a dad. American hero, Deputy Sheriff
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: Joe Crumpton. Thank you to our guests, but especially to
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: But I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.