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Living in Our Elements: What Child-Led Learning Reveals About Kids with Robin Mackey · Self-Schooled

• Heather DiNino (she/they): Welcome back to Self Schooled. I'm Heather Danino. Today's episode is a little different. I sat down in person with Robin, an educator and assistant director here at Elements Academy, the nonprofit micro school I founded, to talk about what we are learning alongside the kids. When we give our children room to follow their interests, make choices, and be themselves, what do we get to see? And how does that change the way we understand and connect with them? We had so much to talk about that we have split our conversation into two episodes. In this first part, we're talking about childled learning and what it can reveal about who children really are. Then in part two, we'll get into outings and what happens when we take that learning out into the world. So whether you're thinking about school or just trying to understand your child a little better. I hope this conversation gives you something to be curious about. Here's part one of living in our elements. Hi everyone, welcome to Self Schooled. I'm so excited to have Robin Mackey here. And this is a treat because we usually do this virtually, and now we both get to be in person. So we'll be looking at each other and we'll be looking at you. And then you'll get a mix of both. so Robin has been an educator at Elements for the past seven years. Hard to believe it's been that long. I know. and she is a theater nerd. Can I say that? Okay. Okay. And we don't like to broadcast this too much, but a Florida native. Shh. How dare you read me like that to all those people? there are good people. There are really good people. Like, I actually think that my upbringing in Florida taught me so much about like who I am as a person now, and I'm able to be older and like reflect to realize like, yes. Florida gets a bad rep and there are Well there are some really dangerous people there too. Like I'm not gonna lie. Yeah. But there are a lot of incredible people there. There are. Okay. Yeah. So Robin. Me. Welcome. Thank you. How did you is there anything that you wanna say that I didn't share about like your gosh. Well, I don't know. One thing I was thinking about when you asked me to be on the podcast earlier, and I had been listening to podcasts the earlier episodes over the last couple weeks. And there was one that was something and I can't remember who you talked about or who you were talking to, but you'll probably remember. And you were talking about like how your inner child is really I think it was was it Gina maybe? Nikki probably. Okay, yeah. and you were talking about how your inner child like what you were at five is what you are now. And like if you are like thinking about what you're doing now, you have to like think back to like what or when you were maybe stuck somewhere, unsure what to do. Think back to what you enjoyed when you were five. And that was Gina, you're right. Okay. And and that is, that's gonna like help you. And I was like thinking about like things when I was younger. and I've always loved theater, I've always loved performing, I've always loved playing dress up, like all my childhood photos are of me wearing random things. but I enjoyed it and I made up skits and plays and dances and whatever. But then another part of it I really was like thinking through was I was always like with other kids, even when I was older or I was helping other people. I actually grew up not with like a family member with Down syndrome, but like my best friend's brother, whom we were like next door neighbors in a family. So I grew up like very close to someone with Down syndrome and I worked like went to the camp at the ARC. It was like the only neurotypical so we thought at the time. person going, I would opt to go with that group instead of like the camp group because they othered people back then. But b whatever, Florida, we've already discussed. And I was just thinking about how I was so much happier like being helpful or just being around people that I always felt I think different even though my I wouldn't even call it a full disability, but like I can't see out of one eye. I always felt different from that. But it was like definitely more invisible than the people I was with. But I just felt like that community from them that like they didn't judge or care like other people may have. Whether it was because I was taller for my age or I had one eye that didn't work, or I was maybe like looked different, different shape, different size, like different music, wore different clothes, like spoke differently, whatever. Like I just just like felt like so I was thinking about that and I was like, it makes so much sense like why I found my way into doing what I do. Yeah. Like it just feels more natural for me. How would you describe what you do? Like what is what is your job? well shaping the minds of the future. No, like making good making good humans, like helping guide good humans who see the world so differently than the most people see the world. I I think, who see it from different lenses, who are helping actually What I'm doing is just being taught by kids endlessly how to look at something different, how to wonder about something in a different way, and like help me see the world in the way that they see the world, in a way that I never would have thought maybe to see the world. And all ways are right or wrong, like nothing is right or wrong, everything is valid. And so I'm working with kids to try to like help them be the best version of themselves. and navigate a world that isn't always gonna make it easy for them to be the best version of themselves or to be any version of themselves sometimes it's not built for everyone. No, it's definitely not. It's not built for everyone. So you're you're gonna you're like out meeting someone new, I would say at a bar but you don't drink. So like you're out like and you're like, I've at a party or something. I met someone new and they're like what do you do? Well the long and short is I work with really creative students who see the who, you know, don't fit into the box of public school or the box of of life. So to speak. And that I just I work with highly sensitive kids who are super creative and super bright and magical is usually what I say. I'm so grateful this is what I do instead of having to do anything other than that. There's just there's so much more like depth yeah to the work here and I'm just not a black and white person. I'm very much in the grey and so the depth of it I think is so much more appealing. Pink and purple. You know what I mean? But the there's just more to it, And it's just more magical, I think. I'm usually I'll say I'm a teacher. Uh-huh. And then see what they say depending on like how much I go into. Yeah. Cause if they say like what grade or if I say like I used to teach special ed in public schools, like depending on how they respond to that, I'll know like how to can I Can I ma do I have to mask right now? Right. Like do I have to like just be like, yeah, I I I teach at a school. Yeah, 'cause sometimes it's not that the person might not be interested in even hearing what you have to say. It's just like you actually don't think they deserve to hear what you I mean it's a lot of energy, right? Like it's it's talking about like what we do and the kids that we work with and the families we work with is like sharing such a deep part of us. And it's so nuanced that not everyone I think also can even fathom like when you start to explain it, they just like kind of be their glaze over. Or they've already clocked you as the weirdo. Yeah. Right. And they're just like, Yep, I get it. That matches with the pink hair. And like, cool. Right? Which is also like I love that because it's such an easy way to self select out of this orbit. If you think that that's like not good enough for you, then like that is great. We will be on our merry way. Yeah. I mean, the good thing is that I don't quite often find too many people, like, well Like I just I don't have a lot of like circles or people where I think people like that would be present. So I'm not often finding myself in a way where I have to kind of like mask and like select out. which is like I'm lucky. Yeah, people who so luck are in your life think what you're doing is like so cool. They are like, wow. Like and they also understand it or they've taken the time to understand it, or maybe they know they'll never understand it, but they can still have a great deep appreciation for it because 'cause they know me as a person and how I, you know, don't just do things willy nilly. Like, you know. And that I like will deeply do something and it has to have like a reason behind it, I guess, or meaning. Like, so like even if yeah, they don't fully get it, they they wanna get it. Or they just How many times have you heard? I don't know. Yeah. I wish I had that when I was a kid. I mean like everyone I talk to. what do you think makes working at Elements different than working at another school. Well So many things. I know. I also think like you have a different background of having been in the schools up here for so many years and so many different iterations and capacities. and I merely have not up here in that way. But you hear it a lot. But I know almost like how it is. You do, and I also think like you hear a lot from the kids. my gosh, so many kids because their experiences I work with kids who are in public schools. Who are in other private schools. I work with such a wide variety of kids of different ages, different towns, different all of it. Different states. Like, and I think it's so crazy. I mean, like, the easiest thing is the bathroom. Like the bathroom is The biggest thing. like whenever they need to, whenever they want. They don't need a hall pass. They don't need. to wait they don't have to you know like it's just permission there's so much like yeah just and you don't even have to ask yeah like I mean that's differences but like as far as like working here to get back on the actual question like I think it's just so much more flexible like in for just everything is more flexible like our schedule can be flexible based on like the needs of the kids or like the energies of the kids. Or the wants of the them too, not just simply needs, but even wants. Like I just like really wanna blah blah blah. You know, it's usually stemming from a need, but it could be so random. Yeah. Like, I just really want an ice cream. Or I don't know, like, you know, then we like think about how do we plan an outing for ice cream or like do we just run out and do something? Like go to the grocery and get grapes or fruit, or like really want some fruit, like whatever. So there's more flexibility. I think there's also like it's so much more strength-based. like working here has taught me so much. About myself and my strengths based and using a strengths-based approach, not just on students, but like within the staff, like because we've had so many different people work and come through here, but we've all done the same like staff trainings, and it's really clear to see like who's taking things, understanding the strengths-based, and then like identifying it and really trying to like work on areas of growth and and knowing what those are and catching yourself, and also like where you are. like going to be in your flow state, like when you are working in your strengths. And I think that is something that has like really like changed how I think of the world in general and how I like approach other people in general. Maybe it was like there subconsciously, but it's just such a like a pillar of like what we do. Yeah. That it just like seeps out into like my life. Cause I think, you know, there is like a way to have work-life balance, but I think a lot of the work here seeps into your life for the better. Yeah. You know, like in changing like ways you approach people and things and and situations. I mean, that's evolved so much over time too, because you were with us in year one and we were much more like hate to say standardized because we're the opposite of standardized, but starting a school, I definitely had an image of like all of the teachers will do this. Like we'll be this type of person. Like this is who I want to hire, and this is this is how I view. view their role. And then as we started like doing, you know, different iterations of staff training and and I was building out modules and going through all this different stuff. And it's like, wow, like 10 people can watch the same module and yes. Apply it in 10 different ways. So differently. And that's one of the things I think of when parents ask me, like, are your teachers teacher certified? And I I usually say, like, I don't want teachers who are teacher certified because my teaching program taught me a lot of stuff not to do. And the teachers who we have had here who have been teacher certified get a little bit stuck in the box. And like you talked about flexibility and you know, adaptability, connections, strengths, like that's all outside the box stuff. Yeah. I'd say the one thing that like you have To like kind of keep, which is like a big part of this, is the intuition, like just like and like learning to trust yourself and your gut or listening to that inner thing, you know, somewhere, whether it's like your third eye, your actual gut, like your heart, like wherever it is in your body that it manifests, like tuning into that, and then like how can that help you like then instead of tuning inward, like turning outward to the tiny souls around us, who are tiny souls are. like massively huge beings. Yeah. And so like being able to have really strong intuition. To like connect or observe or like see that I think is such a big part of what working here is like very different from working at another school because I think that like there are amazing teachers out there. Like I went to public schools my whole life Two of them were not typical public schools. They were like auditioned to get into art schools, but they were magnet programs, but they were free. And kids from all over Florida, different districts and counties and such, for middle school and high school. I had some incredible teachers who definitely were tuned in to the students. Definitely were. But we're only capable of being fully tuned in and acting upon that tune in to a degree. Yeah. They can't all they can be so tuned in with you, and there is still like a really hard line of where they can and cannot help you or like support you or like suggest like and I think still within a system. It is. And so like there's just like not a way for that. There's like no no ability to. that no matter how good your teacher is. Like and I just think here it's so much more like I just think that's the burnout. That's what's happening with the burnout is that it's just a misalignment. these teachers who care so deeply about their students like and are so attuned to change can't can't actually do anything sometimes. so seven years in We have always tried to follow what the kids need in what we feel like we're noticing. But we still were kind of, from my perspective, like a bit boxed in. So still trying to like check off the standards and make sure that things were getting done and and really like check all the boxes. Yeah. We kind of decided to take a different route this year because we noticed that kids were really like when we were doing outings, which we have always thought were important and we've always tried to do as many as we can. but we noticed the kids were kind of coming alive when they were out and about. So can you talk a little bit about that transition from like what you noticed the past few years when we would try to do outings and then talk about what that's evolved? into. Yeah, and even like checking off the boxes of like within a someone else's system. Like now we're checking off boxes that are the same thing in our system on our timeline. And these outings are proving like so word for significant not like just so essential so essential to being able to even build sometimes the kids are showing us what needs to be checked off. Yeah. Like I was actually just talking to my my dear friend at a lunch the other day and we just got into like how the year's been and things like that. And I was just like you know taking my students into the real world oftentimes a world that's not built for them. Giving them experiences in these real worlds, doing these things that are so valuable because yeah, maybe sometimes they learn like what parts are not meant for them or like built for them, not not meant for them, but not built for them. Yep or in a supportive way, in a strength-based way. and Allowing them to still have positive experiences in the world is so important for people who are on the spectrum or who are neurodivergent or just young people in general. People, period. Anybody especially young people. And I think that's where we see that like our students. still deserve those opportunities for community. Yes. And it is not as easy or accessible for them to go outside and ride bikes with the neighborhood kids. Maybe to not ride a bike at all. I mean true. but anyway, okay, so talk a little bit about the outings we used to like the way that outings used to work over the past, you know, yeah the first six years. Like we did a lot of outings, train, van, walking, like all the things. My gosh, it was awesome. I think we learned over the years also like places that would be more successful for certain kids, places that were not as successful groups. Combinations of groups dynamics are a real thing, y'all. Dynamics for sure. Chemistry is like no joke, especially with highly sensitive kids. Yeah. and then with a gender nonconforming group. Bathrooms are a thing. Crazy. That are all that that is a really quick way to make a feel a kid feel excluded. Like, this place isn't for me no shade, no shade to the lovely volunteers or even paid employees. when you misgender someone off the bat at the beginning of our feature trip, yeah, it leaves a mark. does that just like taint a whole day? I'm thinking too about like social dynamics that can happen out on outings where yes you know the kids get upset that like someone pushes them and doesn't say sorry or the kids are being rude to each other or rude to the adults. Like our kids are really kind and sensitive and they're just like what is banging like why is why and they usually come to us and For every negative, there's 100 positives, right? You know, like I tell you 100 equals a thousand for those of you math people that wanted to math is math. but I think they're were so many like amazing glimpses of like seeing kids in a different environment as well, like our students, that like brought out these like new layers to them of like someone who is like super shy or like, you know, not really holding the door for strangers. I'm like, who are you? Yeah. You don't even hold the door for me when I'm going out the door with the wagon. And we're begging you. Begging Please hold the door. Away from me. Right. But you know, seeing that, like a layer of just like that And some it's like elevation and awareness of the people in our group, even like our fellow students, and like making connections while we're on outings between students' dynamics who don't often like not that they don't overlap or such a tight-knit community, but like it's different. And then you see a connection formed while they're out because they find they both really love the same thing, or this person's elevation of awareness of others, like or their awareness of others elevated and they notice when Something was off with that one and approaches that one and hey, I I what's up? Like how are you know? And then there's a beautiful, like blossoming friendship forming there or a connection. Like they might be friends, but then they're like, wow, you actually care deeply about me. That means like you're a safe person. Like, I can trust you in a way I never never saw you in that way before, right? These beautiful things happening that it honestly maybe have nothing to do with where we are, just that we're out in a different environment where, you know, The world is your oyster. There are gonna be so many different things happening. Yep. So many, like, you know, stimuli coming in and just things you have to, like, maybe maybe it's too much, and then maybe your level of awareness really shrinks because you get hyper-focused on something. And we see where that happens too with kids. And like, okay, that's an area of growth for that person. Like, maybe they're not ready to go to a place like this next time. Like, let's figure out how we can work on that in a way like that is supportive and not shameful. So that they're ready to do something similar next time, or we can try again. Like, what are and then that teaches us things about them where like we may never have we we'd be like, well, there's so XYZ in the classroom or at school. So obviously they're like that going out there. Imagine like the And it's the opposite, and we would have never known. Well, I'm thinking of like a kid's report card, right? Which is already like so minimal. Like, not here, our progress reports are awesome and very thorough. But a kid's report card, right? They're getting like an A. Or like say even straight A's, right? In all like the subjects, but that they've never been out in the world. They've all that's been like within these walls. Yeah, you're taking a multiple choice. Like a GPA or an A or whatever the grade is feels so superficial. yeah. As compared to like this dynamic sense of what we thought was deep connection over the past six years, like I truly thought we are really connected to these kids. Like we know them really well. We were in school most days, but we would do outings a lot. Sometimes little ones, sometimes full day ones, whatever. We did outings what we thought was a lot. And then because of seeing them more dynamic and more alive and it was showing things that we didn't know the kids had interests in, or we didn't know that they, you know, Struggled here or loved this or whatever. Yeah. Maybe like, you know what? We actually need to be out all the time. Like, yeah, maybe we don't even need to be at school as much. Maybe we can do four long days instead of five short days. Yeah. So that we can be longer, spend longer times at places. Maybe we can like kind of make the priority being out and about. And the school is our home base. So in the in the way of it being so child led, we were Seeing these changes slowly but surely as we went through the last few years, that we were like, hello, no-brainer. Like, this is what they're showing us. Thanks for spending this time with us. Something I keep coming back to is how much there still is to discover about our kids, even when we feel like we know them really well. So this week, maybe take a moment to notice when your child lights up. What are they doing? What do you get to see about them in that moment? And I wonder if they were doing that same thing in a different environment, if it might look or feel different. In part two, Robin and I will talk more about our outings and what we're discovering with the kids and about the kids when we're out in the world together. And if you'd like a little help exploring who your child is and who you are alongside them, you can grab the free self-schooled parent toolkit at self-schooled.com. See you next time.