Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / The Practical Workspace World | John Sowash talks Google for Education that actually works

Transcript

The Practical Workspace World | John Sowash talks Google for Education that actually works · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
0:03
podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
0:07
Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
0:09
as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
0:12
technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
0:15
conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
0:18
we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
0:21
and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
0:25
and let's integrate this. Welcome to the Integrate
0:40
This EdTech podcast. I'm Jeremy Mikla. I'm joined
0:43
by co -host David Berner. And our guest today
0:46
we're happy to bring on board is John Sowash.
0:50
John is definitely a well -known name, I think,
0:53
in the space around the Google Workspace environment
0:56
for sure. But I know he's got a lot of great
0:58
ideas and a lot of great insight into other topics
1:02
that we're going to dive into here as well today.
1:05
And John, we want to be... honoring your time
1:09
here today. And we want to make sure that we
1:11
can get into some of these conversations that
1:14
we have planned on our document that we have
1:17
going. But we do like to start out with kind
1:20
of turning it over to our guests. Tell us a little
1:22
bit about your background. How did you move into
1:25
this educational technology space to the point
1:28
where you have your own blog, your own newsletter,
1:31
your own podcast about the Chromebook classroom?
1:37
Yeah, great to be with you guys. Thanks so much
1:39
for having me on. My journey is kind of an accidental
1:44
one. This was not a well planned out process.
1:50
It just kind of happened and you step through
1:52
the doors that open. I started in the classroom.
1:55
I live in Michigan. taught high school science
1:59
in the greater Detroit area. I did the life science.
2:02
So I'm the guy responsible for making the entire
2:04
school stink in the springs or dissections. I
2:08
did biology, anatomy and physiology, AP, bio,
2:12
health, PE, all the kind of life science things.
2:17
And then I was actually a high school principal
2:19
there for a couple of years as well. So did both
2:22
classroom and administration. And then all throughout
2:26
that time, I've always been interested in technology,
2:28
so I would just kind of dabble. And, you know,
2:31
this was back, gentlemen, in the olden days,
2:34
ancient history, just after the stone tablets
2:37
back when we were just getting Wi -Fi into school
2:39
buildings. So I distinctly remember getting a
2:42
couple laptops. That was the first classroom
2:44
to get like a mounted permanent overhead projector.
2:48
You had to check them out before. Um, and I was
2:52
always very interested. So just kind of, you
2:53
know, dabbled and explored and probably one of
2:56
the most important things that I did was start
3:00
a blog. Um, and this was back in the blogger
3:03
days back when blogging was cool. I still blog.
3:06
I don't know. You guys blog, nobody blogs anymore.
3:09
Um, not much. Yeah, I did dabble with it once
3:16
upon a time, too, and actually did have my own
3:20
registered domain, but, you know, that sure has
3:24
been a while. I think people now, don't you think,
3:27
maybe prefer a little bit more of this audio
3:29
-video format versus the written word? It definitely
3:33
seems so. I'm not convinced myself, and I'm happy
3:39
to share my process, but I've got to write stuff
3:43
before I can record. So for me, writing the blog
3:45
post is kind of like the first step to the other
3:48
things. I'm so glad I started that blog, which
3:52
is really just a learning journal. I mean, I
3:55
shared the things that worked and things that
3:57
didn't. But it really was just a great way to
4:00
reflect on teaching practice and sharing with
4:03
others and connect with other people. It's great.
4:06
So that was kind of the catalyst. And then fast
4:10
forward like Seven years later, I made the decision
4:14
to leave the classroom and do this full time.
4:17
It's kind of a bittersweet moment. The position
4:20
that I had was being eliminated. So I was either
4:23
find a different position or try to go out on
4:26
my own. And I was like, well, we'll give this
4:29
a shot. So I did that. And that was 12 years
4:33
ago. So for the last 12 years, I've been full
4:36
time. helping teachers and students use Google
4:40
tools in the classroom from Chromebooks to Drive
4:44
and classroom to now the latest which I'm sure
4:46
we'll get into Gemini and AI Yeah, for sure.
4:51
Do you think did that moment where your position
4:53
gets eliminated? Did that represent a defining
4:56
moment where you say I either had to go all in
4:58
to what I'm doing or I've got to carve myself
5:01
another path Yeah, I mean it definitely was so
5:06
I mean, in case anybody's wondering, there's
5:08
never a good time to quit a job that pays you
5:11
every every two weeks. No one ever is like, oh,
5:14
let's do this other thing. So not having to make
5:18
that decision, you know, being kind of forced
5:21
into it. You know, it's like, OK, well, if it's
5:25
either go out and hit the job market or go on
5:29
your own, I'll pick the the latter. I've always
5:32
been entrepreneurial. I mean, since I was like
5:37
eight years old, I've been starting businesses
5:39
and doing things. So it worked for me. Like I
5:43
never try to talk anybody into being an entrepreneur.
5:46
And people like to say, oh, that's not, it's
5:49
not fun. It's miserable. Now I wouldn't have
5:53
it any other way, but I mean, you are trading
5:56
security and, you know, stability for... chaos,
6:02
but ultimate opportunity. So you have to have
6:04
a strong intestinal fortitude to take that step.
6:11
You know, one of the things that David and I,
6:13
we've even had conversations with each other
6:16
is like, do you feel like you've ever gotten
6:18
to that point where if you're not in constant
6:23
access to a classroom full of kids, do you feel
6:27
like you lose touch with what it's like to be
6:30
in the trenches? you know, with the teachers
6:33
and experience, because I know in when I moved
6:35
from the classroom to the position that I'm in
6:37
now, about five years ago, you know, that was
6:40
one of the concerns that I had before I took
6:43
the leap was, am I am I ready to put myself in
6:45
that position where I can still speak with some
6:49
sort of relevance and authority, you know what
6:51
I mean, in front of that group of teachers? Yeah,
6:53
no, I know, I know what you mean. And it's certainly
6:56
something that's on my mind. I have a few ways
6:59
that I can continue to do that. I mean I have
7:01
been an instructional coach for some local districts
7:05
and you know I get to go into classrooms from
7:07
time to time. I also have five children of my
7:09
own so they're a good testing ground. I mean
7:12
I've got elementary, middle, and high school
7:15
students I see every single day so that helps
7:19
as well. I feel I have a very good pulse on the
7:24
what it means to be a teacher. The part that
7:27
has shifted a lot, which is very hard to put
7:32
your finger on, there's definitely been a shift
7:35
in kind of the attitude of students since COVID.
7:40
And I don't know if it was COVID in that whole
7:42
situation or the new technology coming out, but
7:44
there's definitely been a shift in just the attitude
7:47
towards education in general, which I do legitimately
7:53
um feel concerned for teachers because that's
7:56
a tough attitude to combat that in large part
8:00
is not really under their control. Yeah and John
8:05
as you're looking I know you had mentioned uh
8:08
earlier about like your the blog and how as you
8:11
approach things you're scripting things out to
8:14
help first kind of give you some direction as
8:16
to what you're going to do but We we mentioned
8:20
a couple different things ways of delivering
8:23
content. Is there what what things have you found
8:26
through your time with your with your website
8:28
and the different things that you've done with
8:30
like tutorials and sessions and like newsletter
8:34
type things? What what have you found has been
8:37
really successful with reaching teachers and
8:40
getting them engaged into the content that you're
8:42
trying to show them? Yeah, I spent a lot of time
8:47
doing this You know the formal term would be
8:51
like content marketing. You know my goal is to
8:53
provide as much free helpful content as possible
8:57
and I Have it has been shown that over the last
9:01
10 years If I do that enough, there's enough
9:05
opportunities that pay the bills and keep the
9:07
lights on. So I really don't have to sell per
9:10
se. I just try to provide helpful information
9:12
and people find me. Every person has their favorite.
9:20
I mean, when you talk about social media platforms,
9:22
each one has its own personality and its own
9:24
kind of subculture. I mean, it is pretty incredible.
9:28
I mean, I can go as deep into this as you want,
9:30
but I mean, I have a whole content strategy where
9:32
I develop a long form piece of content and that
9:35
splinters off into short form social media posts,
9:40
reels, images, like it fragments off into all
9:43
those things. You never have to worry about creating
9:46
too much content because no one sees it all.
9:49
The people on Facebook are not the people on
9:52
Twitter. The people on Twitter are not the people
9:54
on YouTube. And so every platform, every avenue
9:58
has its own kind of market and stream. And you,
10:03
yeah, you just create for that that thing. There
10:06
are certain things that I'm better at than others.
10:09
I'm not a TikTok person. Really, I'm not a huge
10:15
fan of the platform. So I have an account, but
10:17
don't follow me because I never log in. But honestly,
10:22
and this is going to sound super old, but Facebook,
10:26
I mean, I get the most engagement from Facebook.
10:30
Now I can look at the demographics of all of
10:32
my platforms and I can tell you exactly who's
10:35
on which one. So, you know, Facebook skews older
10:39
and by older, I mean like 40 plus, which is me.
10:44
You know, your TikTok is going to skew much younger,
10:47
obviously. So the answer unfortunately is they're
10:50
all valuable. You do as many as you feel you
10:54
can. You can't do all of them. You will have
10:56
to make decisions, but absolutely very important
11:00
to create long -form content, short -form content,
11:05
text only, image only, because everybody has
11:09
a preference about what they like. You mentioned
11:13
that content that you make. How does that help
11:15
transition into some of the larger things that
11:18
you do? If you're looking at professional development
11:20
opportunities, webinars, those type of things,
11:24
because then you're your movie from some of those
11:26
social platforms into like real maybe in person
11:29
or maybe you have a large webinar of people that
11:32
you're engaging with. How do you make that transition
11:34
usually? Yeah, so there's something I learned
11:37
a long time ago that has been true for a long
11:41
time, which is people pay for packaging. Everything
11:46
that I say, I give away for free. The trick or
11:52
what's different, like if if you want me to give
11:55
a you know very kind of organized sequential
11:59
look at something you're gonna have to hire me
12:02
to come into your district now every single thing
12:04
that i'm gonna say during that is available online
12:07
but you're gonna have to go watch that youtube
12:08
video and read that blog post and this fate like
12:11
you'd have to piece it together which you could
12:13
do but it wouldn't be terribly fun um so yeah
12:17
like everything that i do is can be broken down
12:21
into bigger smaller chunks um I enjoyed watching
12:30
comedians lately. A couple of my favorites are
12:34
John Crist, he's hilarious, and Nate Bargazzi.
12:39
Had a chance to see both of them live. I would
12:43
say that a lot of what I do, and probably what
12:45
you guys do as well, is very similar to stand
12:48
-up comics. unfortunately neither of us are as
12:52
funny as either of those guys and we certainly
12:55
don't make as much money as those guys but all
12:57
a comic is doing is making an observation testing
13:01
out a bit which might range from like two minutes
13:05
to 20 minutes Then they do a whole bunch of those
13:08
and they stitch those together into an hour -long
13:10
special or whatnot So that's really what all
13:13
I'm doing like I'm seeing this cool thing that
13:15
Google has create I'm like, oh I could use that
13:17
as a language arts teacher do such and such Well,
13:20
that might be a two minute a three minute thing
13:22
and I'll take this thing for math teachers so
13:24
you're just kind of assembling those pieces together
13:26
and again, it could be a 10 minute YouTube video.
13:31
It could be a hour long webinar or it could be
13:35
a three or six hour PD session. The content can
13:40
be kind of assembled almost like Legos. If you,
13:43
you know, if you do it well and you have good
13:45
handle on the content. What is your thoughts
13:48
on as far as like when we talk about meaningful
13:51
tech use in the classroom and so that it has,
13:53
you know, something like pedagogy first. and
13:57
integrate the tech. So do you have kind of a
14:01
side question for you here? Do you feel like
14:03
because of all the different short form things
14:06
that are out there, if a lot of teachers are
14:09
if most of their engagement is coming from, say,
14:13
something they see on like Instagram or any any
14:17
other platforms that we mentioned, TikTok, whatever,
14:19
do you feel like that does? a disservice to teachers
14:23
when they're trying to implement things because
14:25
they see something but maybe not in its full
14:27
effect or in consideration of like a full pedagogical
14:33
context. Do you feel like it does a disservice
14:35
or does it maybe help with if you go and do a
14:39
live session with teachers, it gives them, they
14:42
maybe have had a little bit of background. What's
14:43
your thoughts on that? I'm not a huge fan of
14:48
the short term content. I mean, I scroll through
14:52
all the time. I couldn't tell you a single one
14:56
of the reels that I saw yesterday. I really struggled
15:01
with the short form content for professional
15:03
development because the algorithms are so heavily
15:06
weighted towards just entertainment. It's like,
15:09
oh, that was super funny. Like all the sketches
15:11
and whatnot. And they're great. I love them.
15:13
But It's I mean it's so jarring if you're scrolling
15:16
through a bunch of funny content And then you
15:18
see me with a you know tutorial on how to create
15:21
a better rubric through Google Classroom like
15:23
no Thanks, give me give me the you know the sketches
15:27
again Now maybe that's my fault. I need to come
15:30
up with more creative ways to talk about rubrics.
15:32
I'm not sure But you got to meet people where
15:36
they're at. I mean, I dabble with it. I'm always
15:38
trying to find a better way to communicate. But
15:41
yes, I absolutely believe that you are missing
15:43
a lot of the context. People see a lot of my
15:46
content and they think that I'm just a gung -ho
15:48
all tech all the time. I'm not. I'm not into
15:52
the paperless classroom. I'm not into using Chromebooks
15:54
every day. I'm not into giving AI to every kid
15:57
because they can. But those are nuances that
16:01
take time to unpack and explain. And that's where
16:04
you have a longer form. I mean, conversation
16:06
like this, podcasting, is a great way to unpack
16:09
that. I have one more question for you real quick.
16:13
Jeremy and I do a lot of trainings, too. And
16:16
I'm wondering what your thoughts are on, if you
16:18
go and do a training for, say, a whole school
16:20
staff, how do you combat some of the, like, if
16:26
teachers are overwhelmed, What's your tips behind
16:31
that? Or maybe even just touching on, you have
16:35
a pretty large room of staff with a lot of different
16:38
learning abilities and in different places as
16:41
far as what they might know on a particular topic.
16:44
Let's say it's Google Classroom or something
16:45
like that. What do you do typically with those?
16:49
What are your go -tos for that type of situation?
16:51
Well, I'll be very honest. My least favorite
16:54
scenario is the beginning of the year, all day,
16:59
all staff PD session. That's like two days before
17:02
the first day of school. That's an absolute recipe
17:05
for disaster. Now, I understand that you don't
17:08
always have control over those dynamics, but
17:11
that is the worst possible time to do professional
17:14
development. It's hard. I mean, just be honest.
17:21
I'm not there, like if you're the PE teacher
17:23
and you have to be there, and we're talking about
17:25
Google Classroom, I'd be like, hey man, this
17:27
really isn't the thing that you need to do. I'm
17:31
not going to bother you. You know, if you have
17:33
other things you need to go for it because you
17:35
know, you're you're a subject better than better
17:38
than me. My ideal would be to provide more just
17:43
in time professional development where I'm available.
17:46
And as a teacher has a need, I step in and I
17:49
assist them with that need. That is the most
17:51
effective. Now it's it's a little more time consuming.
17:55
That's why I do like all my little tips and tricks
17:58
type content. because I'm hoping that, oh, I
18:02
have this need and I remember this thing, you
18:04
know, it fills that gap. And that's where just
18:08
kind of your quick monthly newsletters, what
18:11
are the tech on the loo, you know, the potty
18:16
PDs, things that, you know, that kind of stuff,
18:19
I think can be useful. And then people reach
18:22
out if they have the need for that particular
18:24
thing. One of the avenues that you've gone down,
18:30
and I'm not trying to put you into a box here,
18:32
right? But when you got your content is. packaged
18:37
around a Chromebook classroom. Obviously, Google
18:40
is in the Google workspace for education domain
18:43
is pretty integral to the types of things that
18:46
you do and the types of stuff that you share.
18:48
So my question is, you know, like, what's the
18:51
draw towards Google? Why is that the avenue that,
18:54
you know, a lot of teachers go down and a lot
18:56
of schools go down? Is it I mean, is it is it
19:00
just convenience or is there something deeper,
19:01
more powerful there? I mean, for me, that's what
19:04
I was doing in the classroom and it was the most
19:07
effective. So again, when I was teaching Gmail,
19:14
Gmail accounts for schools were brand new thing.
19:17
There were no Chromebooks didn't exist yet. We
19:20
actually were one -to -one with iPads, you know,
19:22
towards the end of my time in the classroom.
19:24
And we were thrilled to have them, but they did
19:27
not work well. And just the collaboration aspect
19:31
like, One iPad is great. 300 iPads were a nightmare.
19:37
And there was also, I remember when Google Classroom
19:39
came out. So just the mechanism, like we had
19:43
to make that shift from going to the copier and
19:45
running off copies for everybody. There was no
19:49
digital method of making a digital document for
19:54
30 kids. It didn't exist. Like you had to manually.
19:57
And so when Google started coming out, like Oh,
20:00
they actually kind of get what this is like.
20:03
They're understanding the process that teachers
20:06
are using, and they're making it easier for us.
20:09
And I did a lot of iPad work at the time. And
20:14
eventually, I just said, you know what? I'm going
20:16
to focus in on Google. And again, from a business
20:20
perspective, niche down is always a recommendation.
20:23
It's better to be the foremost expert on a really
20:25
small thing than, you know, Dabble in a whole
20:28
bunch of things. So I went all in on Google.
20:31
I am using iPad in years now And again, I'm not
20:35
anti iPad. That's just not my thing There's plenty
20:37
of people who are out there doing it or Microsoft
20:39
or whatever So for me, it just worked Free was
20:43
always good, too. It's hard to not quite the
20:47
same today as it was but pretty close But I remember
20:52
the days exactly very vividly when our tech director
20:56
when I was in the classroom came in and said
20:58
to the in a staff meeting it probably was like
21:00
at the beginning of the year and had said we're
21:03
moving from this old email system to Gmail and
21:07
all of you are going to now have Gmail emails
21:11
and you know everyone is going to just like jump
21:14
on board and wow, that is the worst way to lose
21:17
your entire staff is just is to do that very
21:21
thing. So, you know, definitely is something
21:25
I recall. And I also recall that the days of
21:28
the early one to one iPads, because our school
21:31
was also a pretty early adopter of those. And
21:34
the principal had come to me and said, you're
21:36
going to lead the charge of the teachers and
21:38
get them to do this. And I remember trying things
21:42
like Edmoto. even playing around with Moodle,
21:46
you know, back in the day and you had to have
21:48
a different Moodle server to be able to kind
21:51
of like schedule out and send out assignments
21:53
of, you know, a PDF to kids that they could then
21:57
have their own copy of, right? And it was very
22:00
cumbersome and very difficult. And then Google
22:02
comes around and does things like making doc
22:05
shareable and send them out so that every student
22:08
can have their own copy, right? And so they started
22:12
then, I think, from there, developing the whole
22:15
suite of different tools. And I know from my
22:18
own experience, one of the traps that I tended
22:22
to fall into was, and I'm glad I've learned from
22:26
this today, but was to start putting the tool
22:29
first. But that causes a lot of problems. Why
22:32
is it much more important to put a learning objective
22:35
out there in front of or a learning target in
22:38
front of the tool that you're going to try to
22:39
match it with, even if it's a Google tool? I
22:44
totally agree. I do feel that we've kind of maybe
22:48
passed over that issue. I mean, I remember probably,
22:53
you know, 2000. 17, 18, 19, you'd go to any tech
22:58
conference and you'd go to the, you know, 45
23:01
tools, 65 tools in 30 minutes. And everybody
23:05
wanted a tool for everything today. I actually
23:09
almost think it's the opposite. When you say,
23:11
Hey, there's this really cool tool. Maybe you
23:13
should check out. Everybody's like, Oh, not another
23:15
one. I don't want to log in or set it up or figure
23:19
it out. I, that's more of the sense I'm getting
23:22
now. Um, but you're a hundred percent. Right,
23:25
you can't just go to the next shiny object. Now
23:28
we are doing a little bit of that right now in
23:30
the AI world. Because I mean, there's, you can't
23:34
throw a rock without hitting a new AI company
23:36
right now. And a lot of them, you know, are all
23:40
the same. So be interesting to see how that all
23:44
shakes out. But absolutely, like, what are you
23:46
trying to accomplish? What is the fastest way
23:48
to get there? But I wouldn't even say EdTech
23:50
tool, I would just say a pencil is the best way
23:54
to do it then. goodness sakes, make your life
23:56
easy. Just write it down. You know, pick the
24:00
best tool to get the job done. So now I'm setting
24:04
this up maybe a little bit intentionally here,
24:06
you know, like, granted, you know, that learning
24:09
objective is out there in front and you want
24:12
the tool that's going to match it regardless
24:14
of whether it's high tech, low tech or anywhere
24:16
between. But you know, Google has I think a lot
24:19
of maybe a platform of different tools that are
24:24
really neat. Do you think there are any that
24:26
are underutilized or underrated in your mind
24:30
that could really help to accelerate learning
24:32
for a student or improving instruction for a
24:35
teacher? Yeah, a couple, I don't know, underutilized.
24:39
I mean, some of them are new. I mean, I've been
24:42
quite impressed lately with Google Vids, which
24:46
I don't sense that. a lot of teachers have had
24:50
a chance to explore. I feel, I remember sensing
24:55
the PowerPoint fatigue of, you know, 10 years
24:58
ago. I kind of feel like we're in Google Slides
25:00
fatigue. Like kids don't like making slide reasons.
25:02
It's not cool. It's not fun. It's boring. So
25:06
yeah, Google Vids could be a nice alternative
25:09
to that. That would be the new one. And then
25:14
Google Sites, honestly. You know, Sites was very
25:18
popular pre -classroom because everybody made
25:21
teacher pages, but then Classroom kind of absorbed
25:24
a lot of that. But like right now, I'm working
25:27
with the Google Site project with some kids and
25:29
they love it. They think it's super fun. And
25:32
they're learning how to build websites along
25:34
the way as well. So there's two for you. Yeah,
25:37
that's really cool. And I've actually seen people
25:40
that have taken Google Sites and used, you know,
25:44
something that they have developed in maybe like
25:46
AI studio, and then they're able to take that
25:49
code and embed it onto their site and almost
25:51
make like a live web app that just needs to be
25:53
hosted on a Google site, something that hey,
25:56
all of these schools have access to, right? Yeah,
26:00
they tend to block them because the kids have
26:02
figured out how to do it too. And now the kids
26:04
are building their own game websites, which is
26:07
creative and frustrating at the same time. How
26:11
about those kids? That's why we love them though.
26:15
You know, I want you to switch and put on a different
26:17
hat here now and maybe you're kind of like started
26:20
to mention that here. What sort of admin level
26:23
decisions do you think are important to be able
26:25
to not prevent maybe innovation from teachers,
26:29
but yet to be able to keep in mind that the security
26:32
and the safety of students? Yeah, and I don't
26:35
know if you're. intention for this question was
26:38
more of the like school principal level or the
26:40
IT admin. I think I'm going more IT admin role.
26:44
Yeah, because I've stepped into that role a lot
26:47
more over the last seven or eight years. Kind
26:50
of coming out of COVID, so many schools deployed
26:52
Chromebooks and other tech just in an emergency
26:56
situation with very little planning. And so I've
26:59
done a lot of work in the Google admin console
27:01
to help schools thoughtfully apply policies and
27:05
whatnot. Unfortunately, it's not really their
27:09
fault, but a lot of IT admins are not teachers.
27:12
So they don't fully understand the implication.
27:14
Like when I click this button, I'm trying to
27:17
make things more secure, but I've just made the
27:20
life of a teacher miserable. Whether it's password
27:25
security or just different things. Right now
27:30
the Gemini conversation is the most important.
27:33
The one thing that floors me, because I've worked
27:36
with again hundreds and hundreds of districts,
27:38
the number of school districts that have disabled
27:42
Gemini for staff, but are maybe not like encouraging
27:47
it, but just looking the other way when the staff
27:50
go and use ChatGPT. I'm like, I don't understand
27:55
that. at all. And it's happened enough times
27:58
that I'm like, I don't like what are we doing
28:01
here? I mean, if you don't like AI, that's one
28:03
thing. But to exclude the tool that you built
28:08
your entire district on for this other random
28:11
thing that you really have no data privacy agreement
28:13
with or any control over just seems very unwise.
28:19
And once teachers buy into Chad GBT, trying to
28:23
switch them back is gonna be a nightmare. I mean,
28:24
it's like the email thing you mentioned. They're
28:26
not gonna wanna switch. Once you drink a Coke,
28:29
don't give me a Pepsi. And another way to look
28:36
at this too is from the teacher side. So I know
28:40
Jeremy just had you think about it from like
28:42
tech, more the tech side and admin side and kind
28:45
of controlling what's accessible. But from...
28:49
and I know we're gonna talk about AI in a little
28:52
bit. I know we've got some questions there, but
28:54
as far as instructional integrity and balancing
28:58
a mix of exposure for teachers to AI tools and
29:04
how they implement those tools, what do you think
29:08
is the most important thing for maybe, so now
29:13
like the leadership side, whether it's a principal
29:16
or if it's like a curriculum coordinator, What
29:20
should they be looking at in terms of utilizing
29:22
and getting these tools to their teachers, but
29:26
maintaining instructional integrity and not losing
29:28
sight of that? Because like so much of what we've
29:30
seen in the past is an explosion of ed tech tools
29:34
and not the best implementation of those tools.
29:39
So can you touch on that a little bit? Yeah,
29:42
I hope I can communicate this well. This is something
29:46
I've been thinking a lot about. So I've been
29:49
using AI for, I don't know, two and a half years
29:52
now. I mean, it's certainly improved. That's
29:56
pretty easy to see. But I have definitely noticed
30:00
a shift in like how I am using it. And I don't
30:07
know if I can communicate this super well. But
30:11
like it is it's a skill. You really have to figure
30:19
out how to use AI effectively. And I think the
30:24
most important thing about AI use is you have
30:29
to know what you want. If you don't know what
30:32
you want, AI is going to give it to you and you're
30:36
going to use it. And it may or may not be the
30:39
right thing. So if you are really smushy in your
30:43
pedagogy, you don't know what your standards
30:46
are, you don't know what you're trying to accomplish,
30:49
AI is always going to give you an answer, and
30:52
it's gonna guess. If you don't direct it, it's
30:55
just gonna guess, and sometimes it gets it right,
30:57
and sometimes it gets it wrong. And that also
31:01
is, I think, why I'm so uncomfortable giving
31:06
especially elementary and middle school students
31:08
access to AI. Because they don't know what they
31:12
want yet. They don't know where they're going.
31:15
So AI is a tool that helps you get where you're
31:17
going faster. But if you don't know, it's just
31:20
going to take you somewhere. And you may or may
31:22
not like where you end up. So it's kind of a
31:27
twofold issue for schools. Your teachers have
31:30
to have some basic skills to know how to use
31:33
it. But then you also your administration has
31:37
to be strong enough to set that vision that says
31:40
this is where we're going This is the curriculum.
31:42
These are the expectations This is the school
31:44
culture that we've created and now we can use
31:47
the AI to help us implement those things You
31:49
don't have that then you just fragment into all
31:52
these different places and it feels like AI is
31:55
Negatively impacting you is just amplifying what
31:58
was there good or bad. So I hopefully that comes
32:02
across I haven't written a blog post about that
32:05
yet, because those thoughts are still percolating
32:09
in my mind. Right. Because we have so many people
32:15
involved, and tech is so widely used in schools,
32:21
do you have any thoughts on how we can overcome
32:26
some of the silos of departments? Like where
32:28
we've got, you know, the tech, there's the tech
32:31
folks. They make sure that everything is secure.
32:33
They're in the admin console. Nobody else really
32:36
knows much about that. Making an assumption there,
32:39
but they're they're kind of doing their thing.
32:42
We have the pedagogy folks over here who are
32:44
doing their thing. Give me thoughts about how
32:46
we can kind of break those down and bring those
32:48
people to the table more together so that they
32:50
can learn more about what they're doing in the
32:54
school. Honestly, I think it's school leadership.
32:57
It's not an easy answer. But I mean, yes, I have
33:00
worked with districts and in districts where
33:03
the IT person operates like a dictator. And I
33:08
don't understand how, I mean, that's a leadership
33:12
thing. That's not allowed. You are just one piece
33:16
of this organization. You don't just get to dictate
33:18
whatever you want and then tell everybody else
33:20
to deal with it. We have to have that conversation.
33:24
you know that's the superintendent or you know
33:26
whoever's leading the school is just like hey
33:29
we're in this together we got all all do that
33:31
so that's a that's a leadership thing making
33:34
sure that everybody realizes that we're all one
33:36
piece of this larger whole and everybody contributes
33:39
to everything. Now I do feel that there will
33:42
end up being some silos and you do actually need
33:45
some silos probably you know at the department
33:48
level like math instruction is going to be very
33:51
different than language arts. And they're going
33:52
to have different needs and requirements and
33:54
concerns. And so I think that's okay. But that's
33:57
where you have to hire groups where we take all
34:01
of those things into consideration. But ultimately,
34:04
I think it's it's top leadership. Yeah, so it
34:08
sounds like you're if I'm hearing you're right,
34:10
you're kind of saying like there's avenues for
34:12
both of these things to be occurring. It just
34:14
depends on what it's for. Somebody's got to pull
34:18
it all together. Someone's got to bring those
34:21
lines of communication and let people say, hey,
34:25
we want to hear your concerns. And understand
34:27
that there's going to be differing opinions.
34:30
And at some point, we're going to have to pick
34:31
one or the other. But that doesn't mean you're
34:33
necessarily wrong. It just means this is the
34:35
direction. We've got to pick something. So this
34:37
is the direction we're going to head. Sure. One
34:41
other question here, if you're looking at the
34:43
school as a whole and let's say the school is
34:48
maybe doing something like a one -to -one rollout
34:50
tomorrow or something that is going to get tech
34:54
to students, is there anything that you would
34:58
communicate to a tech coordinator or a tech integrationist
35:01
of big mistakes that could be easily avoided
35:04
with a simple fill in the blank? One thing I
35:09
think schools need to consider is the parent,
35:15
parent concerns. I mean, look at how many resources
35:19
we extend to manage tech in school. Parents do
35:25
not have that level of expertise, the equipment
35:28
or the tools that we have. And so that's something
35:32
like I've been a little surprised, like as a
35:34
father of five kids, I feel that I basically
35:37
run an IT organization at my. just managing all
35:42
the Alexas and the Nintendos and the Xbox and
35:45
the phones and I mean it's a real challenge and
35:49
I think that is Becoming more parent with like
35:53
AI So you have parents who may or may not want
35:56
their kids to have AI and just making sure that
35:59
we communicate What this is the safety, you know
36:01
guardrails that we've put in place Because the
36:04
parents can make your life miserable, you know
36:06
If you don't bring them on board and listen to
36:08
some of those concerns Yeah, and it's it really
36:13
is kind of interesting I just finished it was
36:16
it was on my list of things to read for a long
36:18
time and I'm a little ashamed that it took me
36:19
the song to read it but Anxious Generation, the
36:23
Jonathan Hape book, and it's really interesting
36:25
at one point he talks about how we can't just
36:28
lay it all onto parents and expect every single
36:30
parent to be that IT department for their family,
36:33
like you're saying, to be able to effectively
36:37
help guide students in managing their screen
36:40
usage, but also in making sure that we're giving
36:44
students opportunities to do a lot of other things
36:47
besides engage with tech. So it's kind of interesting
36:50
to hear you say something a little bit similar
36:53
why it's important to bring parents into that
36:56
conversation, I think, at the same time, and
36:58
get that perspective. And I think AI definitely
37:01
is accelerating that conversation in many different
37:05
ways as well. So like my kids we we don't let
37:09
our kids have phones until they drive so you
37:12
don't get a cell phone until you drive So if
37:15
I send my kid to your school and you hand them
37:18
a Chromebook Okay, I mean way like I want to
37:23
make sure that that device is supporting our
37:25
family goals as well So yes, it's it's definitely
37:30
a partnership For parents and families on both
37:34
ends of the spectrum Yeah, let's kind of, we
37:39
did invite AI into our conversation here just
37:41
a little bit ago too, and I feel like that's
37:44
a term I've heard before, invite AI into your
37:47
conversations, right? But I think for teachers,
37:52
many of them are starting to feel. because they're
37:55
hearing it from perhaps their tech leaders in
37:59
their buildings. Maybe they're hearing it from
38:01
their admins, their principals, or their superintendents
38:04
that they should be invited to bring AI into
38:07
the conversation. I think sometimes when a teacher
38:10
hears that, they think it needs to be all AI
38:12
all the time. and that we don't want them to
38:15
lose focus on the highly effective things that
38:19
they're doing anyway. But as someone who looks
38:23
at a lot of ed tech, like you had described earlier,
38:29
it's part of what you do every day. How can you
38:31
help a teacher sift through that noise to get
38:34
to what is going to be impactful for them? Yeah,
38:40
there's a lot to unpack there. I have done a
38:45
ton of AI workshops, webinars, PD sessions since
38:50
the first of the year. It really feels like schools
38:53
are investing in PD lately. And I get these two
38:57
extreme opinions, which is wild. Like it'll be,
39:01
I'll talk to two people right after each other
39:03
and these are the two things they'll say. So
39:04
one person will be using AI and will be super
39:08
frustrated because it's not perfect. is like,
39:11
I asked it for this thing and it's not 100 %
39:13
what I wanted, so it's no good. I'm not using
39:16
it, it's not good enough. Then I'll have another
39:19
person who will simultaneously tell me, I'm so
39:23
scared of this, it's going to take my job because
39:25
it's going to do everything perfectly. And so
39:26
we got these two people who are both mad at AI
39:30
for different reasons. I think the truth is probably
39:33
somewhere in the middle. One of the things I
39:36
like to say is Use AI to accomplish the things
39:39
that you hate the most. Like every teacher is
39:43
good at some things and hates doing other things.
39:46
So use the AI to get rid of the annoying stuff
39:48
so that you can focus on the things that you
39:50
like. I don't really enjoy lesson planning, so
39:53
I would love to use AI to do that. Some people,
39:55
that is their favorite part of teaching is coming
39:58
up with these really cool creative lessons. Well,
40:00
great! then do it yourself and use AI for, I
40:03
don't know, grading or report cards or the thing
40:06
that you dislike. I mean, I saw the report from
40:11
the Microsoft CEO that was like, all white collar
40:14
jobs will be eliminated in six months. And I'm
40:18
not buying it. I mean, I'm not saying it's not
40:20
going to have an impact, but I don't think it's
40:23
going to be as quick as it is made out to be.
40:28
I think teachers are still the most important
40:30
part of the classroom. I think AI can assist
40:33
them. AI will make a good teacher better and
40:37
a bad teacher worse. Again, it gets back to that
40:40
you have to know where you're going. If you don't
40:43
have good instructional practice, then AI is
40:45
going to amplify. It just takes that bad teacher
40:49
and accelerates them down that path. AI is really
40:53
good at making lousy worksheets. One last thing
40:58
here, I think with AI to touch on here before
41:01
we move into our lightning round stuff that we
41:03
have for you at the end. What role should AI
41:06
have with student use? Do we need to be focusing
41:10
on AI literacy? Is there a certain timeframe
41:15
where you think exposing kids to the things that
41:19
AI can do to help them become more beneficial?
41:22
Yeah, so my personal thoughts, and I welcome
41:26
discussion and disagreement on this, no AI for
41:29
elementary, they need to be reading, writing,
41:31
talking to humans. Honestly, I would say limited
41:34
tech use, you know, special projects, special
41:37
opportunities, but not, you know, not every day.
41:41
Middle school, I am open to AI for like special
41:46
projects. but not as like it just we have it
41:50
all available all the time. So like for this
41:52
thing or this project or this activity, we'll
41:55
use it. Now at the high school level, you've
41:59
got to loosen it up because they have it anyways,
42:02
and they are moving into college and career and
42:05
whatnot. The hope would be that once they get
42:09
into high school, they have mastered the basic
42:12
skills, like they know how to type, they know
42:14
how to form a sentence, and so AI can assist
42:17
them in formulating their thoughts and refining
42:21
their ideas. The challenge with AI is that it's
42:24
all based on intention. If you have bad intentions,
42:27
it will help you. If you have good intentions,
42:29
it will also help you. And that's hard to legislate.
42:32
And so you have to, I think at the middle school
42:34
level, we have to talk more about why learning
42:37
is important. And there are tools you can use
42:40
to take shortcuts and cheat, and that's only
42:41
going to impact you. There has to be that intrinsic
42:44
motivation, because there's no way to tech your
42:47
way out of students using AI inappropriately.
42:54
Yeah, and so I think I I think we're kind of
42:57
setting up here for our lightning round that
43:00
we we bring in at the end And so John what we're
43:04
gonna do is we're gonna alternate asking you
43:06
a few different questions And it's meant to be
43:08
up to you to give a short one word answer, one
43:12
sentence answer, but if you feel it's worth expounding
43:15
upon, you know, add it to a paragraph, you know,
43:18
whatever that length that you think is appropriate.
43:20
And then to mix in a little bit of this and that
43:22
type questions where we will kind of pin you
43:24
down to one or the other. So I think, let's see,
43:28
David, I've got you kicking it off with the first
43:30
question here. Yeah. So if AI disappeared tomorrow,
43:34
what skill would teachers need to double down
43:37
on? I'm gonna cheat and say the three R's. Read
43:41
and write and arithmetic. Those don't go out
43:44
of style. So John, if you were given an unlimited
43:49
funding for one individual but awesome tech experiment
43:53
that you could bring and implement into your
43:55
building, what would you look at trying to bring
43:59
about? I am quite fascinated by the ability to
44:04
code with AI. I firmly believe that somebody
44:08
is going to create a multi -million dollar product
44:11
without any coding skills. And it could be a
44:15
sixth grader. I don't know. So a coding class
44:18
with some of the like replet or some of the higher
44:21
end like coding platforms, I think would be fascinating
44:25
to see what they come up with. I think David's
44:28
got a shot at that. He likes his vibe coding.
44:30
I like to do some vibe coding. Yes. If you had
44:34
to pick one Google workspace feature every teacher
44:38
should master in 2026, what is that and why?
44:42
It's got to be Gemini. Again, I've done a ton
44:46
of training for teachers and they've used Gemini,
44:52
but I'm actually a little disappointed that they
44:54
have no idea. They don't know about Canvas or
44:58
deep research or different modes. They don't
45:02
know how to use it effectively, because no one's
45:05
trained them. So definitely dive into Gemini.
45:09
I'm going to kind of change up this next question
45:11
that's on there, because I think you've given
45:13
us some controversial things here already, which
45:16
was going to be the next question. So since you
45:17
brought up Gemini, what's your favorite Gemini
45:20
tool? You know, you mentioned deep research,
45:23
guided learning. You've got nano banana. You've
45:26
now got the music. Yeah. It's got to be Canvas,
45:32
100 % Canvas. I really struggled with Gemini
45:37
because I was trying to do like blogging and
45:38
stuff and I could never get it to really match
45:40
my voice. But with Canvas, if you don't know,
45:42
it's just basically Google Doc. So you can go
45:45
in and you can make your own edits as well as
45:47
asking AI to make edits. So the ability to go
45:49
back and forth where you have a lot more control
45:52
is, yeah, it's so nice. Cool. All right. So the
45:57
next one here is this or that. So it's kind of
45:59
rapid fire. And with this or that, you can only
46:01
choose one. You have to choose one or the other.
46:04
So I'll give you two options on each one of these.
46:07
AI assistant for teachers or AI tutor for students?
46:12
I would do AI assistant for teachers. I think
46:14
it's a great teacher tool. Okay. Early bird productivity
46:19
or late night creative burst? Ooh, I go back
46:24
and forth. I usually work out in the morning.
46:27
So I guess I do my productivity stuff more at
46:30
night. All right. Deep mastery of one core tool
46:36
or surface level knowledge of 20 tools. Oh, deep
46:39
mastery for sure. I mean, I'm the guy who's just
46:42
double tripled down on Google. I mean, if it
46:44
doesn't have a login with Google button, I'm
46:46
like, nope, not doing it. Paper notebook or digital
46:51
notes? I'm a lefty, so it's got to be digital.
46:54
My wife always makes fun of me, because the only
46:55
thing she's ever seen me write is my signature.
46:58
But lefties and pens and notebooks never works
47:01
well. In -person PD or asynchronous self -paced
47:08
learning? I prefer in -person. What I would say
47:15
is in -person works best for introductory stuff.
47:19
asynchronous and self -paced works better for
47:22
advanced. That way you can kind of fast forward
47:25
and skip through. But I'm always nervous when
47:28
schools want me to do a webinar for like something
47:32
brand new. I'm like, oh, this is not going to
47:34
go well. So you got the webinar tool, two monitors,
47:39
you got all this stuff in addition to the new
47:41
thing you're learning. Okay, and then this is
47:45
the last this or that road trip with a podcast
47:48
or music Oh podcast for sure, of course Integrate
47:54
this and you know, that's a good answer. Thanks
47:59
I'm not a music guy. I'm a podcast guy To 2x
48:06
as well, which drives my family not so you guys
48:08
Yeah, one and a half Okay, depends on the show.
48:15
I got a couple hosts that talk too fast, but
48:17
I try to do 2x. I usually roll with the 0 .5.
48:22
So we slow everything down for him though, so
48:26
that's no big deal. Hey, and one last question
48:30
here, John, before we turn you loose here. So
48:33
you're going to be given a keynote tomorrow,
48:35
let's say, and the the person in charge of the
48:40
sound comes to you and says, what do you want
48:42
to be your walkout song? All right. I like this.
48:46
What's going to be pumping people up before you
48:48
take the stage? Yeah. It's a oldie, but I'm going
48:52
to go with Glorious by Macklemore. That one's
48:55
been on my playlist a lot lately. It's a high
48:58
energy song. Awesome. Well, John, thank you so
49:02
much here for joining us. What we want to do
49:04
is give you a little bit of the stage here. Is
49:07
there anything coming up that you want to promote,
49:09
or if you want to give a shout out to your website,
49:12
your blog, your podcast, your newsletter? And
49:15
we can definitely link all of those things in
49:16
the show description. Yeah, happy to connect
49:19
with people. I'm on all the socials, either my
49:23
name or Chromebook Classroom. Since there's a
49:27
bunch of podcast people listening to this, my
49:29
podcast is the Chromebook Classroom, wherever
49:32
finer podcasts are made available. And yeah,
49:37
let's see, it's conference season right now.
49:39
So let's see, I'm going to be making trips to
49:43
Kentucky. I'll be at KISTI in March, the McColl
49:46
Conference in Michigan, March as well. And then
49:51
I'll be in Sandusky for an IT brainstorm conference
49:54
in May. So yeah, if you're coming to any events,
50:01
say hello. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, John.
50:05
Love to have you on the show. Thanks. Thank you
50:07
for the invitation. Boy, it's great to be a guest.
50:10
It's all the fun and none of the editing. Thanks,
50:14
John. Thanks for listening to Integrate This.
50:23
Want to take your learning further? Head over
50:25
to our YouTube channel for quick tutorials, deep
50:28
dives, and more EdTech tips you can use right
50:31
away. Don't forget to subscribe and catch new
50:34
podcast episodes every Thursday on Apple, Spotify,
50:39
or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next
50:41
time, keep exploring, keep innovating, and keep
50:45
integrating this.