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What Happens When You Out-Earn Your Partner? with Tori Dunlap · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer. Closer to truths.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Closer to each other. Even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Danielle Robay, and each week my guests and I come
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask, what if? Why not?
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: And who says? So come curious. Dig deep. and join
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: the conversation. It's time to question everything. Hello, hello, my friends,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: my loves, my people. I hope you're having a beautiful week.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I am having a good week, but an emotional week.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Gloria Steinem died almost a week ago today, eight days ago.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: And I've really been in mourning. I've been like crying
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: every day and also like laughing and smiling because even
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: in her death, she is bringing people together. So many
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: people from the Gloria sisterhood, the Gloria world texted and
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: called and I called them. And yeah, she was just,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: she was amazing. She was one of those people that
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: made you feel like everything was going to be okay.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: And yeah, She was absolutely hilarious. I think people didn't know,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: not everybody knew how funny she was. And she really
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: loved to laugh. She always said laughter was the only
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: emotion you couldn't compel, which I thought was so cool.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: She had sort of all these like quotes and taglines
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: and things that were so simple and so impactful. So
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: to the point, but you just, you felt them deeply.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: I think it's part of what made her such a
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: good speaker when she was fighting for women's rights in
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: the 60s and 70s and 80s. And to the day
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: she died, she was fighting. So if you haven't listened
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: to the interview that I did with Gloria that came
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: out in March in honor of Women's Month this year,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: go back and listen to it or watch it on YouTube,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: regardless of what you think of me. It's just so
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: beautiful to hear her speak. And you know what? I
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: just kind of want to share a few things about
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: her that maybe People wouldn't know just from watching her
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: be a public figure. When I would go to her house,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: she would almost always have a half-eaten croissant or muffin
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: by her table and something chocolatey maybe. When I asked
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: her what her favorite food was, she said mangoes because
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: of her time that she spent in India. Though I
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: have to say I never saw her eat an actual mango.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I think she just really loved her time in India.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: And it reminded her of that. She said that when
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: she was there, she learned so much about the power
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: that women held because there was sort of a women's
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: movement of their own going on there at the time.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: And she was so great with dating advice, mostly because
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: she gave no advice at all. She just listened and
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: loved to hear a story. And this is a story
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: that I love about her. Her new and her final
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: book is coming out the very end of September. And
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: her publisher asked her what she wanted to do to celebrate.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: And she said, I want to have a talking circle
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: with librarians. Something that she taught me that I didn't
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  Speaker 1: know is that librarians in many ways were at the
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: forefront of the women's movement because there was a book
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: banning going on and they were at the forefront and
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: librarians were almost exclusively women at the time. And so
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: they led the charge in so many ways. And I
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: think she loves writing and books and authors. And so
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: she just felt so connected to them. So she said
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: she wanted a talking circle. And some of the amazing
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: people that worked with her were putting together these sort
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: of gift bags or take-home bags. Some of the amazing
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: people that work with her were putting together these take-home bags.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: And they asked her to sign all of the books.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: And she said, well, that's presumptuous. And they were like,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: what do you mean? And she was like, well, how
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: do you know they want me to sign their book?
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: And she was serious. And they were like, I think
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: everybody wants a signed book, Gloria. But she just had
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  Speaker 1: absolutely no ego. She was a woman of the people
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  Speaker 1: for the people. And yeah, I'm going to miss her
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  Speaker 1: very much. Well, that takes us to today's episode. And
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: we're actually talking to a woman who who really does
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  Speaker 1: talk a lot about women and power. There's this saying
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: that goes, money is power. But what does that actually mean?
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  Speaker 1: Because in my mind, it's this. Money cannot protect us
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  Speaker 1: from everything, but it can give us the power of choice.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: And I'm going to be honest, this episode feels deeply
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  Speaker 1: personal to me because for much of my career, I
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: experienced sexual harassment. People being so inappropriate at work and
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: in the orbit of work. I not once said anything.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Not because I did not know what was wrong. It
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: was very wrong. I knew it at the time. I
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: would cry about it. I was uncomfortable. I called a
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: million people to ask them what to do. But I
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  Speaker 1: needed the opportunity. I needed the money. And I feared
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: what speaking up might cost me. And many times I
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: felt like I knew what speaking up would cost me.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: So what would I do? I would, you know, ask
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: a guy that I was dating or a guy friend
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  Speaker 1: how to respond without making that guy feel mad or rejected.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Or sometimes I would play dumb. I would ignore it
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: when it was really in my face and I was young.
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  Speaker 1: I would giggle and make a joke. Another time I'll
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: dive deeper into how I chose to handle this and
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: go more in detail because I think it's an important conversation.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: But I look back on that and I think, wow,
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  Speaker 1: I wish I would have said like, screw you. I
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: wish I would have said, never mind, I don't need
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  Speaker 1: this job. But in reality, I needed to pay my rent.
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  Speaker 1: I needed the opportunity to get the next opportunity. How
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  Speaker 1: often does a woman's ability to say no depend on
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  Speaker 1: whether she can afford the consequences? What if the goal
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  Speaker 1: with money is not simply to be rich, but what
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: if it's to become unfuckwithable? Those are Tori Dunlap's words,
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  Speaker 1: not mine. You know, to have freedom to leave the
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: job that underpays or disrespects you, to walk out of
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  Speaker 1: a room where you don't feel good, to refuse the
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  Speaker 1: contract and still pay your rent, to date and marry
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  Speaker 1: someone you love and not worry about finances, to make
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  Speaker 1: decisions based on what you want rather than what you
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  Speaker 1: are forced to tolerate. Today's guest, Tori Dunlap, has built
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  Speaker 1: a career around helping women create that kind of freedom.
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  Speaker 1: Tori is a New York Times bestselling author, host of
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: the Financial Feminist podcast, founder of Her First 100K. You
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  Speaker 1: know her story because she's been on here before. She
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: came on a few years ago, and after investing $ 100, 000
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  Speaker 1: by the age of 25, she left her corporate job
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  Speaker 1: and built a multi-million dollar business around the belief that
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  Speaker 1: financial education is a woman's best form of protest.
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  Speaker 2: Like, you just can't fuck with me. Like, I'm unfuckable with.
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  Speaker 1: So today we're talking about the part of financial success
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  Speaker 1: that no spreadsheet can explain, okay? How money changes your relationships,
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  Speaker 1: your choices, the way you walk into a room. We
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: get into the complicated feelings that can surface when you
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: out-earn the people that you love, parents, partners, the surprising
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: truth about home ownership, and the investing mistake that leaves
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  Speaker 1: far too many women's money sitting on the sidelines. Financial
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: power is not just about what is in your account.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: It is about choice. that's really what feminism is about too. Choice.
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  Speaker 1: It's time to question everything with Tori Dunlap. Okay, Tori,
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  Speaker 1: you say you love making women rich. So we're going
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  Speaker 1: to get into it today. You saved your first 100K
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  Speaker 1: when you were 25. That was six years ago. If
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  Speaker 1: you were trying to save $ 100, 000 in 2026, What would
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: you do differently than you did in 2020?
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  Speaker 2: I love that question. Everything's a lot more expensive now.
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  Speaker 2: And I feel like the world's even more of a
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  Speaker 2: mess than it was six years ago somehow. So, I mean,
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: things are really hard for a lot of people. The
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  Speaker 2: first thing I would do is just figure out where
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  Speaker 2: my money's at. And people skip this step so often
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: is They have big goals. They want to save, they
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  Speaker 2: want to pay off their debt, but they have no
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  Speaker 2: idea where the money's coming in and where the money's
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  Speaker 2: coming out. So that's the first thing I do is
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  Speaker 2: just like a financial audit of everything that's happening. And
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: then I would figure out, okay, do I have an
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  Speaker 2: earning problem or do I have a spending problem? Spending problem,
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  Speaker 2: a lot easier to fix, right? It's like, okay, I'm
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: making a decent salary, but I'm spending beyond my means
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  Speaker 2: or I'm spending money on things I don't really like.
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  Speaker 2: Earning problem's a little bit harder because But I would
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  Speaker 2: do the same thing I did in 2016, in 2019,
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  Speaker 2: which is start a business. Because as much as all
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  Speaker 2: of the things I did were smart financially, the avoiding
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  Speaker 2: debt when possible, setting aside a percentage of my income automated,
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  Speaker 2: doing all of the smart things financially, the business is
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  Speaker 2: what really skyrocketed me because I had multiple sources of income.
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  Speaker 2: And I would also think strategically about who I know
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  Speaker 2: and what I can learn and I think there's never
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  Speaker 2: been a better time than now to learn something new
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  Speaker 2: because the democratization of knowledge is just it's just so
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  Speaker 2: different even than it was six years ago there's so
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  Speaker 2: many people teaching you everything you need to know.
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  Speaker 1: I really love that answer and I'm wondering what would
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  Speaker 1: feel harder to you now because you're saying it would
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  Speaker 1: be easier actually.
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  Speaker 2: I think I mean it's just life's more expensive absolutely
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  Speaker 2: and I think a lot of I mean all of
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  Speaker 2: us feel inflation and all these things like everything's more
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  Speaker 2: expensive so I think it's just harder to navigate all
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  Speaker 2: of that definitely But also I think the more difficult parts,
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  Speaker 2: if I was doing it again, would be that I
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: would have to relearn all of the things I already know.
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  Speaker 2: Does that make sense? And I'm not just talking practically, again,
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  Speaker 2: how debt works or what a Roth IRA is. I'm
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: talking all of the lessons when I stayed in situations
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  Speaker 2: that I shouldn't have stayed in. I think for me,
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  Speaker 2: it's also not just like learning everything I need to
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  Speaker 2: learn again, not just the practical side, the like how
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  Speaker 2: to pay off debt, like what a Roth IRA is,
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  Speaker 2: but also thinking about all of the times I stayed
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: in situations for too long, all of the times that
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: I allowed myself to get docked down to, to just
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: situations that did not respect my worth. And if I
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: would have gotten out of those sooner, I would have
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  Speaker 2: made more money.
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  Speaker 1: What does being rich in 2026 mean? Is it a number,
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  Speaker 1: a set of options?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it has nothing to do with numbers. It has
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: everything to do with freedom. It has everything to do with,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: especially for women, getting to call every shot in your life.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: And one of our taglines at Her First 100K is,
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  Speaker 2: a financial education is your best form of protest. And
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: I truly believe it is. And I've been saying that
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  Speaker 2: for six years plus. Like, I think when you have money,
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: everything in your life starts to change. And also when
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: you have money, you get to exercise your self-worth. And
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: that is the most incredible part of my work is
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  Speaker 2: I saw it in my own 100K journey and beyond.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't have to stay in the job that didn't
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: respect me, that underpaid me because I could leave. The
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: first job I was in got super toxic. I remember
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: literally I saw a friend the other day from that
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: first job and we were talking about the fact that
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: neither of us could leave because we didn't have enough money.
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  Speaker 2: Once I had money, I got to leave. I got
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: to donate to causes I believed in. I got to
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  Speaker 2: start a business. I got to hire other women. Everything
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  Speaker 2: in my life changed when I had money.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: I felt that too.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: It feels like money stress is at an all-time high.
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  Speaker 2: It really, really is.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: You mentioned that right out of the gate. Is there
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: any good news out there? Can you give us some hope?
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, I think the democratization of knowledge is huge.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: I also think back when I really started doing this work,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: like when we were starting to become popular 2019, 2020,
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: personal finance was kind of this like niche topic. It
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, I didn't study finance or I didn't
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: study business, so I don't really have to care about
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: this thing. And one, there's so many more people just
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: talking about it. But also, too, I think women are
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: finally starting to understand that, yeah, this isn't about having
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: a degree. This isn't about being good with math. This
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: is about your freedom and getting to do what you
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: want to do and say no to everything you'd want
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  Speaker 2: to say no to. Like, that is the most exciting
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: part of it for me is that, again, it's no
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: longer numbers and math. It is like, how do I
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: use money as a tool to build the life that
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: I want? And also, how do I navigate that in
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: a world and in a system that wants to make
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: you feel like you need to just be grateful for
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: what you have and you need to sit down and
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: shut up? And also, don't be too loud. Don't want
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: money because that's bad. I feel like we're turning such
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: a tide. It's happening right now with women being like, no,
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  Speaker 2: I want money not just because I want a stack
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: of cash. I want all of the options that money
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: affords me.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: I was listening to all of your old interviews, including
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: the one we did.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, no.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: And no, but they all start the same way, which
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: is a version of what I said, which is you
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: saved $ 100, 000 when you were 25 years old.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Right.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: And I'm actually I want to take this opportunity because
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: now that we're friends, I feel like we can kind
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: of like throw the pretense away. I want to go
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: way back.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: When you were. 10 yeah what was your relationship with
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: money like as a kid I.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Was really lucky to have a financial education from my
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: parents and it was a privilege I took for granted
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: because I didn't know any different but when I was
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: growing up we were the barely go out to eat
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: and if we go out to eat like I I
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: didn't look at an appetizer section of a menu I
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: think until I was like early 20s like it just
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: didn't exist to me it's like we had water and
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: we had dinner and we went home right And what
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: I learned from that experience in particular was my parents
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: were very good at figuring out what mattered in terms
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: of where money went. So they were frugal, but they
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: weren't frugal like we're never going to have any fun.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: It was, oh, I don't want to spend money here
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: so that we can spend money here. So we're not
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: going to go out to restaurants all that often so
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: that we can take a family trip every year. Right.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: that demonstrated to me the power of both saving for
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: what you want, but also the ability to say, okay,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I can afford a lot of things, but I can't
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: afford everything, right? I have a friend and a fellow
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: financial expert, Paula Pant, who says you can afford almost anything.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: You just can't afford everything. And so I got to
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: see that modeled for me, but I also just got
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: to see them live under their means without, again, it
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: feeling like so stringent, but my parents are still driving
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: the same cars they were driving when I lived at home.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: You know, in college, they make really, really smart financial decisions.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: And I had that modeled for me in a really
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: great way. And one of the stories I tell in
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: my book that we often ask on our show is
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: like your first money memory. And mine was saving. pennies
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: and quarters that I found on the street or like
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: that I got in a lemonade stand in an Altoids
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: tin so I could go see Annie the musical. Because
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: once a theater kid, always a theater kid.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: I was just going to say that's so you.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: It was very me. I was like, and my parents
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: told me, you want to go see Annie, you got
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: to save your money. Now I'm like four or five.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I don't have an income source, right? But that was
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: the whole practice of if you want something, you have
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: to save for it. The interesting thing though, is that
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: financial education was so powerful. And the reason I do
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: the work that I do now is I realized that
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: that isn't a given for everybody. But also that same
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: financial education of like, make smart choices, keep your head down,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: you know, keep your job and have the 401k and
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: a steady paycheck is everything I left behind after I
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: hit that 100k. Because I'm so thankful my parents like
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: made the stable choice because it gave me, yeah, a
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: very stable childhood. But at the same time, I wanted
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: to be an entrepreneur. And that was like the riskiest
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: thing to them I could have done. And so even
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: like our positive money stories, sometimes have negative consequences or
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: we have to kind of work through those as well.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Most people do not have the same positive relationships with money.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: I do. And it was really interesting to even consider
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: that the relationship that I had that was so positive
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: could also.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: It was still a story. Yeah.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: It could also be the reason that maybe it would
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: have prevented me from making one of the smartest financial
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: decisions of my life, which was to go all in
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: on my business.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Is that the first time that money stopped feeling abstract
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: and started feeling real? Or was it when you were younger?
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, I think it was a lot younger. One of
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: my other money memories that I don't know if I've
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: ever shared, this is like such a specific weird thing,
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: but we were at like a fair or a carnival
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: or something and it was like, I got $ 10 from
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: my parents and I could either, I was like down
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: to two things. I could go take a pony ride
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: or I could go buy like this little like puppet
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: thing that I wanted. And I agonized all day about it.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I was like, which one am I getting? I don't know.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: And I went back and forth and back and forth.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: And I was like, well, the pony rides and experience. Oh,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: but this thing I'm going to have forever. And I
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: like could not decide until the last minute where I
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: was like, well, a pony ride is five minutes. This
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: is forever. And I remember throughout my childhood seeing this thing.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: And even when I didn't want it anymore, I wouldn't
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: throw it away because I was just like, oh, no,
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: I bought that. And I agonized over it. And I
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: considered it really thoughtfully.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: And like, oh, to me, especially at that time, like
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: that was like big drama for that whole day. Right.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: When I was eight of like, what am I going
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: to buy? And I think that that still dictates a
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: lot of the way I make decisions.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: But now it seems like you're the opposite. You're more like,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: I'll take the experience. Oh, absolutely.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: No. And the funny thing is, is I regretted it
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: immediately once I got that home. And I was like, oh,
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: it's cute. But like, I really wanted the pony.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: And do you remember the money rhetoric in your house?
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Because I can tell you, just as an example, mine
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: was very different from my mother and my father. My dad,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: I have like very strong, memories of phrases he said
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: which is like money doubles every nine years.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: He's correct by the way it's actually seven.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Oh really yeah so he would always say nine that's
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: so funny and so he would be like he was
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: trying to teach us a lesson he'd be like if
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: you want that pack of gum it's four dollars think
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: about if you really want it because really it's a
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: sixteen dollar pack of gum.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: He's getting new compound interest very early. He's like, let's
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: wire that brain, baby.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I think I want the gum.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: And then my mom was very penny pincher. So my
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: dad had more of an abundant mindset and my mom
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: had the opposite. And I now feel that I am
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: both in me and they fight. And the more that
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: I learn from people like you, the more I lean
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: into the abundant. I remember my mom saying very clearly, like,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: we can't afford that.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: And it's actually, but it actually wasn't even true.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: No, it's usually not true.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: And it's actually one of my biggest pet peeves when...
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: We can afford us weekly. Right. No. And I, especially
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: as I started making more money, I would still find
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: myself going, all right, I can't really afford that. And
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: I would think like, no, I can't afford that. It's
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: just not a priority for me. Right. And it's also
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: really gaslighting when you hear other people who you know
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: how much money they make say, oh, it oh, I
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: can't afford that. And you're like, yes, you fucking can.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Yes, you can't afford that.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: It's just not how you want to spend it.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Right, which is fine. But it's interesting about your parents
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: because really what you're talking about is earn versus save.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Because with so many women in particular, we're told to
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: just save money, right? We're told to coupon clip and
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: be frugal and to just save more money. And that's
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: a good skill. But let's say we cut everything joyful
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: out of our life, right? Let's say we just pay
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: our rent or pay our mortgage, buy our groceries, nothing else, right?
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: There's a finite amount that you can cut. Your earning potential, though,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: is in theory limitless. And it is one of the
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: many ways that we teach boys or men different money
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: stories than we teach women or girls. We teach girls
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: to save and to be frugal and to, yeah, just
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: stick to a budget. And we teach men compound interest
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: and investing and bonuses and how you grow your money.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: And it's one of the, I think, the most damaging
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: things that ends up happening.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: What do you remember your parents saying? Are there money
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: phrases that you remember in your house?
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: That's a good question. I'm trying to remember. My dad
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: sat me down in college and taught me investing.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Oh, cool.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: And that was a lot of, you know, you got it.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that probably the big one was like, you,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: if you want something, you save for it. Like, absolutely.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: And then we were starting to have conversations when I
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: was in high school about like credit card and how
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: to use a credit card responsibly. Cause my parents don't
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: even own a debit card. Like they don't have a
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: debit card. They don't use one. They've never used one.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: I do the same thing. My debit card's like locked
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: in a drawer somewhere. And we just use our credit
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: cards like debit cards. But from again, early age, it
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: was like, you want something, you got to save for it.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Did you ever hear them say save for a
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: rainy day?
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Probably some version of that.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: The emergency fund, like need to save in case something happens. Definitely. Yeah.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: And I think also when it came time to pay
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: for college, I've been very open that they had a
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: college fund saved for me, but I was also like
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: working three jobs and, you know, working summers and it
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: was very much a collaborative process. And I remember, you know,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: before every semester it was family conference to try to
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: figure out, okay, how are we going to pay for
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: this semester? It wasn't like, oh, how are you going
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: to pay for it? Or- You know, it was literally like,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: here's how much we have saved. Here's how far that goes.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: What are you going to contribute then? So that was
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: like a collaborative conversation.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: That was probably very memorable.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: It was. And again, I think when you're 19, you
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: don't fucking know. You like take it for granted and
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: it's like, whatever. But having that conversation and having those
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: repeated conversations, one, made me realize just how goddamn expensive
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: college is. Because I think, yeah, when you're 18, 19,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: you don't really have a concept of money. And you're
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: just like, oh, yeah, $ 50, 000 fine, $ 60, 000, whatever. And then
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: once you're really sitting down and I think analyzing how
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: much things cost or did you ever see like your
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: cost per class? Did you ever see that?
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: No.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know. Some paperwork I saw at some
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: point told me like how much I was paying per class. Yeah.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, I'm never skipping class again.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: That will really never. Also, what I remember is I
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: would buy books that were like it was and I
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: would buy used books always. But it was like twenty
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: five hundred dollars maybe for books for the semester. And
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: then you return them at the end for buyback. And
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: they're like, this one's worth nothing. This one's worth nothing.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: So my mom, this is classic. My Mrs. Dunlap, a classic.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: My mother, we would buy them like cheap used on
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Amazon and then she would go sell them. She'd turn them. Yes,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: you have to.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: At the end of the year.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: But they're not worth as much. It's crazy.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: No, it is wild.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Have your feelings or opinions about money changed as you've
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: gotten older? Because I can say that as your friend,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: I've seen your life change over the past few years.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: You're a partner and you bought a house. Yep. Have you...
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: kind of re-upped any of your thoughts or opinions?
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: I think as I've gotten richer, I get more pissed
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: off at really rich people.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: Interesting. What do you mean? That was not what I
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: was expecting.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: The more money I have, the more responsibility I feel
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: to do good things with that money. And the more
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: then that it pisses me off that we have 50
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: individuals who hold 99.8, 99.9% of the world's wealth and
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: seem to only just be committed to making more money.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: And at that point, like, what is the point? There
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: is no point. And I think this is why we
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: need more women millionaires. I mean, I just think women
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: are so much more generous. We're so much more community oriented.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: We just care more. and feel that personal responsibility. Like
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: I feel a personal responsibility to do good with the
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: money I have. And I especially think we have a
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: responsibility as women right now to actually get rich and
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: to have money because we are the ones who are
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: going to do good shit with it.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: There are some men that are doing good things. It's
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: not just- Absolutely, of course.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: But this is, I'm doing, you know, men are trash,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: not all men, of course. But it's like, It is
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: most of the world's wealth.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: I'm trying so hard to not be like men are trying.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I know, but most of the wealth is held by
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: men and is held by a few men. But I
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: think that that is what we're fighting against as women
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: is again, we're told like, do not want money. That's gauche.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Do not be greedy. Do not pursue money.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: You don't feel like that's changed at all?
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: It's changing actively, definitely. Because again, I think we're seeing
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: money as options and choices and all of those things.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: But at this moment, Where there's so much inequality and
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: there's so many things that women do so... We need
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: more women to have the funds and the money to
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: be able to support the kind of causes they need.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: So I think my life has dramatically changed in the
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: past five years. Yeah.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: And... What went into your decision to buy your house?
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Honestly, it was an emotional decision. And that's, I think,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: the fun part when you start... having enough money to
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: make whatever decision you want is it actually stops being
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: a financial decision. Like it's not about like running the
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: numbers and like, is this a smart investment? It's like, actually,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: I don't care. It's a smart emotional investment for me.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: So I got to the point where I was like, actually,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: I do want to be a homeowner. Like I'd been
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: dating my partner for a while. I felt very settled
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: in Seattle. And I was like, yeah, actually, I do
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: kind of want a project. And I do want a
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: place where I'm not getting like my landlord telling me, oh,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: we're selling the place. You got to leave. Like I
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: wanted that stability. And I also just turned 30. And
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: I think it was part of that too, of like, okay,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: it feels good to do this at this point. And
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: that is actually, I think the coolest thing is, yeah,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: it wasn't actually a financial decision at all. I didn't
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: care if it like the math made sense in terms
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: of like, was I going to get my money back
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: on my investment? It's just like, no, like I wanted
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: this house. I bought it.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Cause I seen a lot of rhetoric online in the
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: past year where they're saying like, buying a house is
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: an emotional decision at this point.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: It's really not a smart financial decision at this point.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Can you explain? I still don't get it.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: It's more the fact that mortgages and the cost of
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: owning a home is now more expensive than renting for
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: like the first time.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: But you're still paying into something. And if you're renting,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: you're throwing the money away, so to speak.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: So I don't believe that. I mean, I was infamously,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: we did multiple, you know, I was the multimillionaire who rents.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Like there were multiple articles written about this because I... yeah,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: even when I could buy a house, I decided not
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: to for years and years. And the reason I did
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: that is I don't think renting a store will bring
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: you money because you are getting the convenience of being
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: a renter. Like you and I have a very busy
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: life where We're traveling all over. We're doing things, especially
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: like my late 20s. I was in the midst of
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: writing a book. I was in the midst of promoting
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: that book. I was like traveling all over. My head
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: was in, how do I build this business? My head
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: was not in go garden and go paint and worry
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: about your boiler breaking. Is that a thing? Boiler breaking?
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Sure, sure.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: I'm a homeowner. I'm really good at this. So I
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: think that you pay for the convenient bursting, flooding. We're
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: doing great. I think that that was the flexibility that
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: was offered to me is I got to focus somewhere else.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: I also didn't have to worry, again, something breaks. It's like,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I'm calling somebody to handle that. That's not my problem.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: And if we look, especially at mortgage rates, like right now,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: even when I bought my home, you know, about half
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: a year ago, that was like, it's 7%. Like, that's
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: really expensive. I made a lot more money putting the
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: money I did have in the stock market than I
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: did tying it up in a mortgage or even paying
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: cash for a house. And we're talking about this as
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: if it's a decision. Most people don't have the decision. Oh,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: should I rent? Should I buy? It is, you are
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: renting because you cannot afford a house in any major
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: city in the United States at this point. Like I
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: live in Seattle, you live in LA. The average home
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: price in Seattle, which is, you know, most people don't
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: consider Seattle an expensive city, $ 950, 000. Crazy. Wild.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Crazy. So you think it's a myth that renting is
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: throwing your money away? I agree.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: I think it's a myth. And I also... think it
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: does not actually talk about the systemic issues at play
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: here which is like it's not really a choice for
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: people at this point and there's a lot of benefit
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: to renting you get to focus your energy you get
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: to do different things with your money your money isn't
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: tied up in the same.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Way so i think most money content assumes beginners and
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: actually doesn't solve for women who are super ambitious or
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: have complex lives like it'll break down at that point
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: when women start to out earn their partners, their parents
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: or their peer group. Do you see that?
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have told you this privately. Every
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: man I've ever been on a date with, I out
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: earn and I fucking love it. It's so great. but
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: it does lead to like, it does lead to like
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: issues and problems. And I've been with my now partner
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: for it's four years, Daniel, which is crazy. And one
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: of the things that we have had to navigate is
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: we make very different incomes, like very different incomes. And
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: actually he just got a new job, which is very
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: exciting and is making more money than he's ever made.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: And it's still, it's, it's not comparable. So you have
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: to have a lot more conversations. Like it, is a
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: lot more work, quite frankly, but it's worth doing. But
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: I think you do get to a point where as
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: women uniquely, when we start doing better, we feel shame.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Like if we feel like we're doing poorly with money,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: we're in debt, we can't save, we can't get ahead
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: of everything, we feel bad about that, right? We feel shame,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: we feel guilt. On the other side, Like when men
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: do great, there's no shame. There's no guilt. It's like, yeah,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: I deserve this. Right. And women do not feel that way.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I feel that way. Good.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: So do I. I do not. So do I.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I worked so hard. I had so much
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: shame for not making money.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: No, it literally is the Barbie movie where she gets
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: the award and she's like, I deserve this. I have
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: worked hard. Thank you. No, but as a whole, and
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: we've done research on this. I have conversations with our
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: 5 million women in our community. They're like, I feel
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: like I can't go out to eat with my friends
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: anymore because I'm they know how much money I make
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: and are they going to expect me to foot the
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: bill every single time? And like, I'm going to sometimes,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: or if I get invited on a bachelorette trip and
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: I go, yeah, I don't want to go and spend
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: 10 days.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: In Turks and Caicos.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. I can afford it, but maybe I don't
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: want to. Right. And then that is there that kind
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: of conversation. So I do feel like you're right that
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: most of the money advice is for beginners and actively
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: what we're trying to do is actually keep doing that
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: advice because it is important, but even shift her first
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: 100K a little bit to talk about, okay, what does
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: happen when you start making more money? What does happen
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: when you're making actually a decent salary? And I'm talking like,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: you know, not just 100K, 152, 253, how do you
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: actually have something to show for it? Because that's the
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: thing that really breaks my heart. I may have told
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: you this story at like dinner or something, but I
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: was at an event a couple of years ago. And
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: I remember it was like one of my first like
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: we're going to have a dinner and we're all going
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: to gather. And I have my little name on the
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: name card, you know? And I was looking around at
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: this table and it was a lot of like fashion influencers, bloggers,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: like women who I knew just based on their following
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: and the numbers I could do in my head, they
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: were making good money, 300 K minimum, probably a million, two, three,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: some of these at this table. And I was the
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: only like financial person there. And I remember sitting there
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: and going, God, I hope they have something to show
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: for it. Like, I hope they know what to do
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: to help guarantee this money sustains them because businesses, Instagram,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: all of these things are very fickle. And we see
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: this a lot with like professional athletes, right? You start
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: making more money than God and you don't have the
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: earning problem. You're doing fine. how do we make sure
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: that you are investing it properly? How do we make
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: sure that you're having open conversations about money in a
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: way that actually protects you and allows you to do
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: the things that you want to do?
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Do you think that you changed, like did, when you
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: started making money, did it change the way that you
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: would walk into a room or date or yeah, how so?
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Every time I walk into a new therapist's office, I
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: tell them there's a lot of things we're going to
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: work on. My self-worth is not one of them. Like,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I know I'm worthy. I know I'm worthy of love, opportunity,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: all of those things, money. So that's never been a
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: problem for me. But I will say that the money
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: has made me like, you just can't fuck with me.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Like I'm unfuckable with, is that a phrase?
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Like unfuckwithable?
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Unfuckwithable. I'm unfuckwithable.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: No, but it's just, I... You're definitely not unfuckable.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: No, absolutely not.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: You have self-worth.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: Absolutely not. No, but it's, again, if I walk into
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: this room and this room does not respect me, I
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: don't care how much you're paying me. I don't have
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: to be here. Yeah. Right? Right. And like, that is
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: the feeling I want for every single woman on this planet.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: I go on a date. There were so many dates
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: when I was actively dating. And again, I'm sure you
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: and I have talked about this off mic, where I
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: knew this date wasn't going well. I actually just throw
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: down my card. And that seems counterintuitive. Like, oh, who
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: shouldn't he pay? I was like, I don't want any
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: expectations here. I don't want to worry about it. I'm
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: just going to throw down my card, shake your hand,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: and never see you again. Like, it's just the best feeling.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I do feel like The way I
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: approach situations has changed. And I also think that the
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: way I think about building relationships has changed as well.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: What do you mean?
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: When you start talking about money in your relationships, you're
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: more honest about everything else. Because I think that is
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: the taboo. There are so many podcasts talking about sex,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: talking about, I don't know, every other taboo topic. we
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: will talk about before we'll talk about money. We will
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: talk about sex, death, politics, religion before we will talk
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: about money. So knowing that I can talk about money
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: with people like you, with other friends, with my partner,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: like it is very freeing. And I also think it
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: allows for more deeper relationship that where you can also
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: be vulnerable in other places.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: I think money changed the way I date.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Tell me more.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: So I had this, I don't know if I've told
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: this story on the pod. If I have, I'm really
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: sorry for repeating it.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: I do that all the time. I'm like, I probably
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: told this story before. And I'm like, nobody cares. Nobody's
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: listened to every episode. I don't know.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: But I went on a date, like this was like
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: six years ago, maybe. And I was telling a therapist
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: about the date. And she's like, Danielle, let me stop you.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Do you want to be him or do you want
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: to fuck him? And I was like, I think I
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: want to be him. And she goes, so why don't
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: you like, like press pause on all this and go
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: become the person that you're like wanting to be in
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: proximity to. And I was like, it changed my whole life.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: What did you want to be? Like, what did he
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: have that you wanted?
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted to be
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: a CEO. I wanted to be the one calling the shots.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: I wanted to build something. You wanted control. I wanted
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: to build something and I knew I could. I just
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: didn't know how and I didn't have the skills and
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: I was so broke.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: And I think I really like stopped dating for a
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: little while. And I realized that when I started dating again,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: I was way less impressed by men, which was a
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: good thing. And I don't mean that as a dog
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: on them. It was more that I had changed what,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: like what was inside of me.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And what you wanted and what you expected.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And so I can imagine from that experience, I
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: can imagine that building your business changed how you walk
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: into meetings and how you, you know, and not in a,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: in like a way of hubris, but just. No, no, no.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: And I also realized that mostly everything you can figure out.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Everything is figureoutable.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: It really is Marie Folio. It really, like it is.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: And it's also okay to say I don't know.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Yes. But you know what? I just had this the
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: other day because with my card game, I'm expanding it
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: this year. And I realized I didn't know certain things.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: And it's not set up as its own business. It's
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: under my LLC as a whole. And I was like,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to do this. And then I realized...
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Every answer is in a fucking book.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: When did I forget that?
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: And it's all there.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And also, like, indent new paragraph, you are also, like,
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: my intuition is never wrong.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: That must be nice.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Your intuition is never wrong either. Everybody listening's intuition
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: is never wrong. We just don't listen to it or
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: we can't hear it as much because society, everything is
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: just drowned it out. Yeah. It's made us question everything.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: The question are... Question just the... Thoughts in our head,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: all of that. But like my intuition is never wrong.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: And there were many situations, especially when I was first
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: building the business where I was like, oh, I'll talk
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: to this person because they know more. And there were
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: definitely sometimes, of course, people knew more than me. There's
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: always people out there who know more than me. But
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: I often had conversations with people who knew more than
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: me on paper. And I took their advice, even though
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: something in me was like, that's not how we're going
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: to do it.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: It's not right advice for you.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: No. And so I know now what is actually good
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: advice from people who know it and what is not
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: going to work.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: A learning I've had is that sometimes you are the
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: person in the room. Sometimes you have the answer.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: You don't have to defer all the time.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Yep. Have you made any money mistakes building your business?
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Is there anything you regret?
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Like what? A million. A million.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: I can give you like four mistakes from last Tuesday.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Tell me.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: I think one is not firing people quickly enough.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: And not hiring people quickly enough. Like those are two,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: probably the two biggest money mistakes. that you can make.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Because when you're a woman entrepreneur, you care very deeply.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: And we're very good. And I think I don't fault
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: myself or any woman entrepreneur for this. We're very good
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: at giving a million chances. And I now give 999,000 chances.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: I'm just better now at going, okay, is this working?
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: If it's not, how do we fix it? And at
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: what point are we saying, nope, it's not working? So
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: I think I've gotten better at doing that for many,
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: many years, especially when I was burned out and doing
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: other parts of the business. I was not dialed in
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: to see what was going on. And so it was
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: very easy to just be like, I don't know, just
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: realize six months later, oh, that person's not in the
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: right role. And they've not been the right role this
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: whole time. And on the flip side, making hiring decisions
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: way too late. You and I have talked about this, right?
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: It's like hiring is so difficult because, yes, you're putting
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: your trust in somebody and you want them to succeed
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: and you want this to be a great working relationship. And... we're, again,
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: as women, really good at doing everything ourselves. Because nobody
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: can do it as well as me. And also, I
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: don't have the time to relinquish control and teach somebody else.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: But if you want to scale and grow, that is
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: how you do it. Absolutely.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: So hard. It's so hard. You're being like evasive right now,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: but you've been telling me you're an assistant for years.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: This is what you mean.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to throw you under the bus on
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: the podcast. You throw me under the bus.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: I'm honest on the pod. No, I think it was
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: actually after the first time we met, you were like,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: do you have anybody? And I'm like, yeah, here's 12 people. No,
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: but it's so hard to do and it also is
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: so worth it. Yeah. But you also have to know
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: what kind of business you want to run. If you
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: want complete flexibility and you're good at like, I want
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: to make as much as I was making in my
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: corporate job, maybe a little bit more. And I want
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: to like do what I want and work when I
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: want and have nobody attached to me or reliant on me,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: then yeah, you don't want to hire. But if you
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: want to scale your business, you have to hire. That's
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: the only way. It's the only way to do it.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Speaking of my soul tour. It's hard. Do you think
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: women subconsciously cap their earning potential to stay relatable?
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: Or likable. Yeah. Yeah. And that's not women's fault. That's
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: the entire society or system telling us, like, I'm less
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: likable now than I've ever been. Like, it's true. Like,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: it's just... You know, you're going to have at least
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: one comment on YouTube that's like, I don't like her.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, okay, I'm sorry, what? No, I'm like,
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: you're going to have a YouTube comment from somebody.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: I know, but what was the comment?
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, I don't like her.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: What is that?
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: That's the voice that I give to everybody who's a troll. Like,
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: I don't like her.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, oh, I don't like her. I don't like her. Oh,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: I was like, what are you saying? Okay, I got it.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: I don't like her and I'm just putting a voice
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: on it.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: That's funny. No, but I, I, yeah, yeah. I remember
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: your original question. It was like likability. Yes. Yes. I don't,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: I think it's so easy to be unlikable as a woman.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: That's actually the easiest thing you can do. You have dreams,
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: you have goals, you have aspirations, you are committed to
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: making yourself feel comfortable, even at the expense of other
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: people's discomfort. That's very unlikable. You say no, very unlikable.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: You don't put on makeup, unlikable. You don't put on
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: too much makeup, unlikable. It is the Barbie monologue. I've
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: brought up Barbie twice in this interview. But it is
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: that monologue. It's like, yeah, somebody's going to get pissed off.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: And I think especially with money, because we view money
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: as worth. Your self-worth is your net worth. Your net
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: worth is your self-worth.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: And I.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Am one of the people who's trying to extract those
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: two things and not relate them. Because... Again, money's power,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: money's options. It has very little to do with like, yeah,
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: what your actual worth is as a person.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: When you started dating people, how early would you talk
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: about money with them?
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: That's a great question. The problem as a public person
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: is you Google me. And the problem as a public
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: person who talks about money is that the like third
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: auto search thing is like Tori Dunlap net worth, right?
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: Now, how accurate is it? Not very accurate, but gives
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: you a ballpark. With my current partner, we had a
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: conversation the first date because the bill came.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: The first date? What is with all the money experts
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: saying they have it on the first date? That's crazy.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm going to say to you as well.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Who's a good friend of mine? I don't think you
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: need to talk about it the first date.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: This is crazy.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: You don't need to bring it up. It will naturally
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: come up.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: And what happened? How did you guys talk about it?
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: The bill came. Right? That is a financial conversation. Who's
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: going to pay, right? And- He knew what I do
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: for work. And he knew, you know, capital F feminist,
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: bring out our soapbox. Here we go. And he didn't,
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: you know, he was like, I don't know how to
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: navigate the situation. So Bill came. And again, we've been
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: on one date. It was great. But we don't know
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: each other super well. He looks down at the bill,
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: looks up at me, looks down at the bill. And
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: I can tell, like, he's nervous. And I go, hey,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: what's up? And he goes, I would really like to pay,
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: but I don't want to offend you. Can I pay?
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, you can pay. Absolutely. That sounds great.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: That was a conversation about money. And it was also
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: really insight into him, which was like, I want to
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: be chivalrous, but also want to respect what you want.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: That was a conversation, right? And you hear, I think,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: especially a lot from men who are like, I'm trying
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: to figure out like, do I hold the door open
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: for my partner?
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: Do I do this?
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: I'm like, just ask. Some women love that. Some women
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: don't love that. Just ask. That's what he did. I
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: would really like to pay. but I don't want to
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: make you uncomfortable. Can I pay? Like that was a
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: conversation about money.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: Okay. Can I be honest with you?
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Cause that for you, I see how that would be
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: so attractive. Like that is, he spoke to your soul.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: I had a guy do that to me one time. Oh,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: and ask. Yes.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: If he could pay. Yes.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Because he was like, I know you're like, A feminist.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's what did it. Because I don't think he
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: said the word feminist. It was just implied.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: And he was like, but I'd really like to pay.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: And I was like, before you said that, I was
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: going to let you pay. But now, why don't we
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: split it and we don't ever have to talk again?
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: So maybe it felt like a challenge. Like, I know
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: you're a feminist.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: No, he was being sweet.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, he was?
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Okay. But I really... I'm struggling to... Because... I want
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: to be so progressive and some of me loves traditional
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: gender roles.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Me too. Me too. Before I came to this interview,
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: I've had my makeup done and I don't get glam
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: done a lot. And I'm very, I felt very pretty
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: for the first time. Thank you. I was not fishing
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: for that. I felt very good in my body. And
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: I called my partner and my partner's like, you look good.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: And I was like, nope, I'm going to stop you
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: right there.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: You can, no, no, no, no.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: You have to give me beautiful, splendid, stunning, gourd. Like
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: you have to tell me I look lovely.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: You've never looked.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: This amazing before. Literally like, oh my gosh. And am
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: I seeking validation from a man?
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Yep, I am.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Like, of course, like all of these, these things can be,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: we can be both good feminists and also be like, yeah,
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: I would like flowers.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: But it's actually deeper for me. Okay.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: Tell me more.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: So I realized that I'm a, I'm a giver by nature. Yeah.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: And when I'm dating someone, I like, I'm like, I
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: want to do everything in my power to make your
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: life better.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: That's how I feel as well.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Okay. So some people are not like that.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: No.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: We're both like that apparently. Okay. And so if I'm
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: dating somebody who doesn't protect my giving, I know that
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: I'm screwed down the line.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Because I will continue to give.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: So it's almost like I need them to be like, no,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: that's not happening.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: She needs them to set boundaries with you because you.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Won't do it with yourself. Yeah, yeah. Oh, well, that
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: sounds bad. But maybe.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Read you for fun on your own podcast. No, but
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: I think that's lovely. I think that's beautiful.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: What's the earliest red flag you now see around money
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: when dating?
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: I think it's just when a man is threatened by
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: a woman's success and especially threatened if you're making more
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: than he is and he discovers that. Like when you
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: start talking about money, because I don't think it's like,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: you know, what is your salary on the first date?
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Like that's, I think, ridiculous. That's not how dating works. Yeah. Inevitably,
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: it will come up, right? You plan like a weekend
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: away together and you're talking about like splitting costs or
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: like if he gets squirrely the moment he realizes that
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: you might be more financially successful than he is, that's hard.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: That's hard to work through.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Do you think the internet's made people better or worse
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: with money?
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: That's a really... Oh, Danielle. In some ways, better. I
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: get more information. I think that we see a lot
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: more diversity in the people talking about money. It's not
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: just straight white guys. It is Black folks and queer
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: folks and women. It's so cool to see that. It's
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: a lot easier to spend money. A lot easier to
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: see what everybody else is up to. A lot easier
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: to get scammed. Oh my God, it's so easy to
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: get scammed online. So in many ways it's positive and
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways it's negative too.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I see both.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: Do you think that financial advice should come with a
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: disclaimer based on personality type? Like I actually have so
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: much reverence for what you do because you're able to
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: meet people where they're at and there are so many
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: different places. I don't know how you do it.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: I think... that you do have to come sometimes say
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: this is not for this type of person yeah like
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: again because our audience now is so broad when we
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: do some episodes where it's like yeah here's how to
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: manage a six-figure income here's how to manage your business
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: when it's you know you're making over half a million
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: dollars a year yeah i do have to say like
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: this will be triggering for people who are nowhere near
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: that we have all of this other content for you
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: because i know that if i was in your that
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: would be just so frustrating You're like, I can't make
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: any money. I'm living paycheck to paycheck. What are you
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: doing helping the people making 500K? They also do need help, right?
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: That's the like people who hopefully have something to show
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: for it versus like, how do we get you out
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: of scarcity? How do we get you out of like
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: paycheck to paycheck mode? So I do think that that's
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: really helpful, almost like a trigger wording, which is like,
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: if this is like, not everything's going to be for you.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: And that's the personal finance is personal. Like we all
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: have our own personal stuff we're working through.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: That's well said. I'm giving a big speech in two months. Okay.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: And it's a 30-minute keynote. I've never done it before.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, you're going to be great.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I promise this has a point.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: So part of it, I've been thinking about shame a lot.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: And I think shame is integrated into money more than
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: almost any other emotion. Absolutely. Shame for having it. Shame
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: for not having it.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: If shame disappeared overnight, how do you think women would
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: behave differently with money?
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: Everything's different. Everything. Literally everything. It is. You're exactly right.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: It is, um, not just like a qualitative concept. It
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: is statistically proven that like shame is the number one
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: thing people feel around money. Um, And it's just like everything, right?
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Shame is like, shame is often, it's not a productive emotion.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: It's an emotion that just makes you feel bad and
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: paralyzes you. Like even guilt, guilt, we associate with the same,
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: like guilt and shame are the same. They're not like
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: guilt is like sometimes productive of like, oh, I feel guilty.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: I didn't do this.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Well, guilt is saying like I did a bad thing
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: and shame is saying I am bad.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: Exactly. It's the identity versus like I failed at this
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: thing versus I am a failure. And I think with money, again,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: is so entrenched because we all believe that we are
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: somehow born with the good with money gene or the
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: bad with money gene. Money is a learned skill, just
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: like a language, just like an instrument. So yeah, if
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: you take shame out of it, oh my gosh, everything changes.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: So I haven't, told you this or anybody this, but
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: I have my loftiest financial goal ever this year. And
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about building wealth with you, which
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: we don't have total time to get into. But my
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: one big question for you is, is what is one
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: piece of investment advice women miss? Because it seems too obvious.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: Love this question. Your investing account is not an investment.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: And you did ask for so obvious. There's somebody out
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: there who's like, yeah, duh. The amount of women who
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: do not know this, the Roth IRA, the 401k, the
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: brokerage account, which is just a general investing account. Those
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: are not the investments. It's not like a bank account
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: where you put a thousand dollars in the bank account
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: and you wipe your hands and you're done. You have
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: to put money in, let's say a Roth IRA, but
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: then go choose your investments. It's like a gift card.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: I put $ 50 on a TJ Maxx gift card. I
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: need to go buy the plants and candles and throw pillows, right?
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: It does not do anything for you unless it's invested.
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: If you don't invest it, if you don't choose your investment,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: something like an index fund maybe that has multiple stocks,
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: if not hundreds, thousands of different companies, your money's sitting
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: in financial purgatory. It's doing nothing for you. It's literally
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: not even growing in normal savings account interest because it's
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: just sitting on the sidelines waiting to be invested. And
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: it is the number one mistake I see women make.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: And every time I talk about it, there's at least
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: a couple dozen women in my DMs going, oh, for
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: five years, I thought I was investing. My money was
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: just sitting there because I hadn't actually done step two. Wow. Yeah.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Okay. Ready for rapid fire? Oh, yeah. Okay. Simple financial
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: habit that gives the biggest return.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Automate your savings. Set up an automatic transfer from your
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: checking account to your savings account. Every single paycheck.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: Best financial decision you've ever made.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: Starting my business and growing it. Absolutely.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: Worst.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: Taking a job for the money.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: What's the go-to index fund to buy?
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: VTI is my personal favorite. We love her. She's a
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: bad bitch.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Should friends ever loan each other money? No, no, please.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: No. Can I just, I know it's rapid fire. If you,
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: if you loan somebody money, expect to never get it back.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: Should friends start businesses together?
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: I would say no. If you want to, you're not
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: going to, you're not going to hear me in this
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: interview and be like, oh, I'm never going to do it.
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: Like you're going to do it. It doesn't matter what
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: I say. I think it's really hard. I think it's
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: really hard to do that.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: It's risky.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: I think it's risky. And it's just like, it complicates
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: the relationship. And honestly, having founders generally, it's both great
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: when you're scaling because somebody else is in it with you.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: It's really hard as you get going because you have
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: a lot of cooks in the kitchen. It's just hard.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: What's something you still feel weird spending money on no
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: matter how much you make?
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: I've only bought a first-class ticket once.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: What's a money habit that you have that would surprise
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: people who think you're ultra-disciplined?
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: Oh, um... I have been paying for, you know, those
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: little like mobile Wi-Fi things.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Like a hotspot.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you. That's the word. Haven't plugged it in in
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: two years. Been paying every month for it.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: I still think that's worth it.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know where it is. It's in my closet somewhere.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: I see it every month and I'm like, I need
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: to cancel that. Nope. Still haven't.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: I have AT & T and they have one in
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: your phone.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: You could just do that. Okay, a splurge you'll never
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: feel guilty about. Food.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: I can spend any money on food and be really happy.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: Something you were sure wealthy people did that turned out
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: to be so false.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: That's a really good question. The first thing that came
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: to mind is like pay for designer things. I have
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: three designer pieces, one of which I'm wearing today. Like
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: it did not do anything for me.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: What's an overrated way to save money?
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: Overrated? Scrimping. Just like trying to find every penny. It's
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: a lot easier to spend your time making, as Ramit
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: Sethi says, like $ 10, 000 decisions than worrying about your $ 10 decisions.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: A book you read that changed your life. Something you
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: think everybody should read.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Untamed by Glennon Doyle.
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: I think you said that last time too.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: Probably did. I can give you a different answer.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Give me your other one.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: That's like my go-to always. Life of Pi by Yann Martel.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: Still having to do with numbers. I like that for you.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: Oh, it is. Yeah. 3.14.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: Okay. What's something every woman should try once, Tori? You
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: can't ask this one.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: I do every time. Oh, I can't say the same
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: answer I said last time. I'm going to look right
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: down at you and I'm going to say this. Go
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: to Disneyland by yourself.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm not.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going by yourself.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: I'm not going by myself.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: No, you've got to go with me. No, but you've
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: got to do things by yourself. Go to restaurants by yourself.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: I don't want to go to movies.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: Go to chat. Like, go do things. You don't want
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: to go to Disneyland, period.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: No. Oh, no. With you, I would go with me. Oh, great.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: It's like our entire friendships are built on a lie. No,
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: do things by yourself. I think it's so important. Do
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: not wait for somebody to do things with because you'll
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: be waiting for the rest of your life.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: Well said. um okay grab that card deck yay pick
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: whichever one feels right to.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: You okay i'm so excited tarot i have these in
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: my house i'm really.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: Excited feel the vibes okay.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: What's something you've done that felt super brave in the
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: moment all this question from you do i want to
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: tell a story on the pod i'll tell it for
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: you thank you i'm gonna see if i can get
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: through this without crying You know that I went through
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: a really, really difficult breakup in 2020, 2021 that changed
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: my entire life. And when I say difficult, people think like, oh,
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: is it bad? It was like, no, I thought this
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: person was the love of my life. And they did
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: such pretty makeup and I'm about to ruin it. I
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: grieved it for years. Like I was unwell. I was
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: not doing well. Looking back in my journals, I was
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: just in the thick of it. Because as someone who
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: likes the story and likes to be able to say,
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: if I put this amount of work in, this is
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: what's going to happen. Relationships are not like that. You
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: can still, you can put in all the work and
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: it still might not happen. And I also was like,
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: if this is the love of my life and like,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: we're not together now, then what is this? Did so
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: much work on myself, like so much work on myself,
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: did a lot of therapy, did coaching, Um, the thing
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: I'm most proud of is like, I didn't Google this person.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: I didn't look them up. Like when we had broken out,
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: like I actually went cold Turkey and I saw him
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: for the first time. Six months ago. Did I tell
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: you this?
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: And all of the hopes and dreams that I had
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: when I was in the thick of it of maybe
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: I can see this person and it is just like
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: Lala land, you know, where I can see this person
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: across the room and it's okay because we know that
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: this is what was supposed to happen. and there's no yearning,
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: there's no longing. It's just like, just love for this person.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: And that felt so brave to be able to do.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: And yes, it was brave in the moment, but I
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: was so proud of like four or five years of really,
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: really deep work where I was just like, okay, this
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: is a going to happen because the universe is like that.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: And so let's not worry about that. Let's just figure
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: out how we're going to take care of ourselves right now.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: And by sitting in it and allowing myself to experience
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: everything I felt rather than trying to like muscle through
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: it or just like, yeah, white knuckle it. It was
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: just like, this is going to take as long as
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: it's going to take to process. And like time really,
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: truly heals everything. And it was just so good to
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: see him and he's engaged. She's probably married by this point.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: I'm in a happy relationship. Like it was just everything
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: that I wanted to be true was, but not on
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: the timeline I wanted. And that's, that's how life works.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: It was really brave for you to sit in it
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: and brave for you to share the story publicly. Yeah.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: Fun, fun stuff.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I love you.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: I love you. Thanks for always being honest and funny. Okay.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: You know what time it is. Today's a good day
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: to have a good day. I'll see you next week.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you.