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The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God - Justin Brierley - #30 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: I'm really excited ⁓ for this one. ⁓ and I thought it would be interesting to ⁓ know. you are a writer, you have a podcast as well, ⁓ you're a public speaker. how long have you been ⁓ making media and was it always ⁓ about ⁓ faith? Hmm. Well the the answer is a long time. ⁓ I've been, I guess, in media since I turned about twenty two years old. So After university, I got married, went on a gap year with my wife. But as soon as we got back home, ⁓ I started working for a Christian radio station in London called Premier Christian Radio. And I worked for them for over twenty years. ⁓ so yeah, it was always faith based, the kind of journalism that I was doing. But I did a lot of different things within that. ⁓ some of the time I was editing a magazine called Christianity Magazine. I was most I was on radio in lots of different forms. But probably the the the show and then the podcast and video show that it became that I'm best known for was called Unbelievable. ⁓ that was a faith debate show where I would bring Christians and non-Christians together for dialogue and debate each week. And that was really where I learned kind of many of the arguments for and against Christianity at an intellectual level. ⁓ so I I really enjoyed going through that whole process in, you know, nearly twenty years of hosting that show. But also ⁓ hosted a number of other podcasts and radio shows with theologians and and various other people. just a few years ago I kind of went freelance. So I left that radio station and the shows that I had developed there ⁓ to start some of my own projects. ⁓ so in more recent years I've hosted a show called The Reenchanting Show, which is a kind of show looking at the way secular post-Christian culture is being re enchanted in many ways by the Christian story with lots of guests on there. ⁓ I also host a documentary podcast series called The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God. And I wrote a book of that name a few years ago as well, looking at the way faith, as far as I can see, seems to be coming back in on the West in lots of interesting ways. And most recently I've started hosting a show that kind of brings me back into that space of moderating dialogues and debates. That's a show called Uncommon Ground. So you can find that again on YouTube, on podcast, and that's where I sit down again with Christians and non Christians to debate some of the big questions. So ⁓ yeah, I l I love what I do. I'm privileged to be able to host really interesting conversations with brilliant minds. And yeah, so so I'm I'm really enjoying what I get to do. That's that's incredible. And I think it's very valuable that you've been in this space for so long. It gives you a really clear view of what it was like all those years ago and and what the current landscape is. Because I do agree. ⁓ I'm I'm less in the space ⁓ than you are, but ⁓ yeah, it is also my gut feeling that ⁓ Christianity is making a comeback and ⁓ yeah it's one of the main topics I'd like to explore today. ⁓ but before we get into that, I'm curious to know have you always been ⁓ a believer? ⁓ were you raised in a ⁓ religious family? I was, yes. So my parents were both Christians. they had both kind of really become Christians at university ⁓ when they met each other. So so they had a very ⁓ active and strong faith ⁓ as young people ⁓ at when they met at university and they went on to raise me and my sisters in the Christian faith. ⁓ though I will say just being born into a Christian family doesn't make you a Christian, obviously. ⁓ it was something that I would say I I really owned for myself when I got into my late teens and I had my own experience of God. ⁓ but one thing I would say is that I had an experience around the age of fifteen that that really sort of set me on the path to Christian faith, taking faith seriously. But I still had a lot of questions. And as soon as I went to university at the age of eighteen, I think I was confronted with a lot of skepticism, a lot of doubts. You know, I had to really question the faith that I felt I had experienced. And to some extent, I think that was my intellectual side catching up with the experiential side. And I started to read a number of Christian thinkers like C.S. Lewis and others who, of course, are well known for making the intellectual case for Christian faith. And to some extent that that really was part of the reason I went on to engage these issues in my adult life. ⁓ I felt there was a really strong intellectual core to Christianity. While it's also something we we obviously feel and experience in in important ways. And so a lot of my work has dealt with what's sometimes technically called apologetics, so the intellectual defense of Christian faith, looking at some of the best arguments for and against Christian faith and asking whether, you know, it can stand up intellectually in the public square. So so ⁓ I don't think that's the only way to see Christian faith, obviously, but it's been an important part of my journey as well, is is coming to terms with the the the intellectual side of it. Yeah, and I really like what you ⁓ said there about that you really have to believe yourself. Like being born into a a Christian family or whichever religion doesn't necessarily make you a believer. And ⁓ yeah, I've I've a lot of questions about that as well. ⁓ but I think for for for starters, now that we're still early in in the discussion, Wha what has changed, if anything, did something change ⁓ along all those ⁓ years? What was it like ⁓ believing as a a teenager and and and getting into it at that that age? And how have you seen the the the Christian landscape evolve over all those years? Because ⁓ for a long time I felt that ⁓ not just Christianity but religion in general, especially in in the West, was ⁓ kind of on its way out. It wasn't really something ⁓ most people ⁓ pursued anymore, at least not in the bigger cities where I'm from. I'm from Amsterdam and I don't think I had anyone in my class during high school that was active ⁓ an active Christian. I had a few people that were a Muslim in my in my class, ⁓ maybe maybe one Jewish person, I don't know, but it's what like it wasn't ⁓ definitely not the majority of people. so yeah for a long time I I f I felt like it it was getting yeah less popular if you will and then some things started changing in the other direction again. So long story short, what was it like ⁓ back in the day and how has it evolved? Thank you. Well, ⁓ Julius, I'd love to hear more of what you're seeing, you know, ⁓ later on in this conversation. Because this has been a huge area of interest to me. But ⁓ like you, when I was growing up, Christianity was definitely not popular, I would say. You know, I was very much in the minority among my friends going to church or really being in a very committed Christian family. ⁓ obviously there's there's been a long tradition of Christianity in the UK. So ⁓ the the sights and sounds of it are all around you. You know, we have churches in in every village and town. ⁓ Christian symbolism is kind of there. But it's often just in the background. It's not s it's something people have kind of learned to to no longer even see in a way. ⁓ and and in that sense, when I was growing up, yeah, w we were well into what's often called secularization. You know, this idea that after maybe the high point in church going in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, there'd just been a gradual, steady decline. of religiosity and church going over several generations. So that yeah, by the time you know you hit like the early two thousands, ⁓ only a tiny proportion of people actually go to church. You still may have a reasonable number of people describing themselves as Christian, say on a national census, but even that has gone down and down. In fact, at the last national census here in the UK, for the first time less than half of people describe themselves as Christian. And and as I say, only a tiny number of those actually go to church anyway. So ⁓ so yeah, I I was, you know, as a teenager. I it was a I was probably a bit of a weird anomaly to my friends, you know, when I started to say, Hey guys, I I think I've become a Christian, you know, you started to talk about Jesus in a more explicit way. That's very unusual in the UK. Maybe not so unusual if you go to some still some parts of the US, you know, where the in the Bible belts especially th it might just be more accepted that there's a kind of generally a a Christian culture and so on. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah I think that that kinda had continued through my twenties and thirties, ⁓ in the sense that by the time I started hosting faith debates on this radio show Unbelievable, really that began in the he heyday of something called the new atheism. So that's a a phrase that just refers to this very dogmatic, anti religious form of atheism that came into the public square at that time through leading figures like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett. ⁓ Sam Harris. And they had each written these best selling anti-god, anti religion books. Maybe the most famous is Richard Dawkins' book, The God Delusion. ⁓ I think it was published in ⁓ 2006, I think. ⁓ I I must apologise, Julius. I think my doorbell is gone and I have a delivery coming. Will you be able to if I pick this up again, will you be able to edit? Of course, of course. Thank you. I I will. It's ⁓ no no problem at all. Okay, apologies. No worries. Sorry about that, Julius. Yeah, no no ⁓ no worries ⁓ whatsoever. ⁓ this ⁓ I I'm ⁓ my doorbell might also go later. I'm also expecting a package. So ⁓ that's fine. No. Just just to warn you, I need to be done by an hour's time, which is ⁓ at ten ⁓ eleven AM my time, which is twelve noon your time, I think. Is that okay? So ⁓ that's okay. Yeah, I usually go for about an hour. So ⁓ if we if we hit the hour mark Minus the little intermezzle here, don't know. We should be totally ⁓ we should be totally fine. Great. I'll I'll pick it up from where I was though. ⁓ yeah. The books. So each of them had their their own best-selling anti-god book. Richard Dawkins' book, The God Delusion, probably the most famous. ⁓ they were sometimes labeled these four characters, in fact, the four horsemen of new atheism. And you know, it was a big public phenomenon. ⁓ there was even like I remember in 2008, 2009, an atheist bus campaign in London, you know, with red London buses with the slogan, There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life. So it this was, I would say, the high watermark of this very skeptical, even anti-Christian kind of perspective. And I was hosting conversations and debates really on the truth of Christianity, looking at these objections. And it was a really good time to actually host these debates because in a way even though it was being cast in a very negative light, Christianity, it was nevertheless open for debate, you know, and and it was an interesting time. There were some really big set piece debates between well-known Christian thinkers and atheists. I hosted some of those in the early years of the show. And ⁓ and that was quite fun. And I found in fact that in the process, as I say, that that there was this real intellectual core to Christianity that it could stand on its own two feet. It doesn't mean there there weren't any questions or mysteries. ⁓ difficult things, but nonetheless I found when you'd put them together, say atheism next to Christian faith, I found there were some really compelling reasons to believe in Christianity and there were some reasons to doubt the atheist account of reality. And so when it came to which which made best sense of all of the evidence available to us, I I found that there were good reasons to be a Christian in that way. So anyway, I I've enjoyed hosting those kinds of conversations, but I did notice as the years went on, because I hosted that show for nearly eighteen years altogether, there was quite a change actually in the nature of the conversations over those nearly two yek the two decades because what started with these very kind of quite often full on vitriolic bombastic debates between Christian and atheist thinkers, I started to notice by the end of the time that I was hosting that show, ⁓ a lot of ⁓ a lot more of the non Christians and non believers were were distancing themselves from this quite antagonistic form of new atheism. They felt it had become almost quite fundamentalist in itself. You know, you could even say, you know, it had its own version of religion. It had the high priests, these four horsemen, sacred texts, the books that they wrote, a kind of ⁓ a a doctrine, if you like, that was based in scientific materialism, you could say, that that all that exists is matter in motion and we can explain everything through the laws of nature. and anyone who went against that was seen as a heretic, you know, e even people in their own ranks who questioned the idea of we live in an u ultimately purposeless, n ⁓ naturalistic kind of model of reality, philosophers like Thomas Nagel and others, they were kind of rounded on, actually, and almost like pushed out and seen as heretics ⁓ against the cause. And, you know, the fact that they had these gatherings, which, you know, the way they gathered together was almost a bit like church, you know, to to kind of praise the wonder of science and look forward to a wonderful new scientific future where reason and science dominate. So this I I'm being a little bit facetious here. I'm I'm characterizing it. But the it did almost r have a kind of religious quality to it. And I think some people actually got quite nervous of that. And they felt it was it was trying to be something that it shouldn't be. ⁓ and so so I eventually even started to to to bump into a number of secular thinkers who were were even going in the other direction and were saying, well, maybe we've actually lost something as we've lost the Christian story in the West. And I started to notice some really interesting thinkers starting to take the place almost of these well known atheist thinkers. People like, say, Jordan Peterson, who's this Canadian psychologist, who suddenly came into my, you know, the the frame in Iraq. twenty seventeen when people started sending me videos and, you know, ⁓ lectures of his. And this was just a kind of fairly random Canadian psychology professor, but who was drew it drawing huge crowds to solve out lectures. And what was he talking about? He was talking about the Bible. and it what was interesting to me was that the the people who were turning up to hear him were kind of the very same demographic, essentially young men who had been turning up for Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens only like a a decade or so earlier. But they seemed to have not found the answers they were looking for ultimately in Harris and Dawkins and Hitchens. And they seemed to be very open to this I to the ideas that the that Peterson was bringing. So I I eventually had Peterson on my show and we had some interesting conversations with opposite an atheist psychologist. But I just noticed this change in the the conversation from being very antagonistic and anti-Christian to e To being actually much more sympathetic and open to at least the value of Christian faith, even if the person didn't necessarily believe it themselves. And so I, I kind of, yeah, charted this i eventually with with this book and podcast series called The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God. And in many ways I've only seen that that increase, that that sort of the what I call the tide of faith coming in, I think has seems to be happening more and more in in the last few years. Yeah, and apart from the debate like is sh should should someone be an atheist, should you believe in God? Sh shouldn't you believe in God? Like, I think if we just look at society as a whole and and look at the results of what this ⁓ decline ⁓ of ⁓ belief in Christiani Christianity has brought society, I think there are some pretty alarming things that has happened over over the last twenty years. I believe when you lose something like religion, ⁓ this sense of community, this sense of purpose that religion can bring, ⁓ people automatically gravitate towards other things. And ⁓ I think this is especially prevalent in ⁓ women, for example, where ⁓ you see birth rates are declining in all of Europe. ⁓ I believe most European countries have a birth rate about one point four, one point five, one point six, well below two, which is what we need to keep the population stable, ⁓ since ⁓ contrary to to some beliefs, ⁓ men cannot get ⁓ children. so d we I and I see this because I believe like part of this ⁓ whether you are like actually ⁓ believe in in Christian beliefs, but Whichever way you put it, it's a more traditional belief. And I'm not saying that ⁓ it's a bad thing that women are now allowed to have careers and that they are able to pursue their their careers if they want to. I by all means, I think women should be able to pursue whichever career they want. However, I do feel like ⁓ Western society has portrayed this image that the highest n most noble thing you can ever do is have a career and make money. And ⁓ that being a mother is somehow ⁓ inferior to having a good career. And all these shows like Caller Daddy that say you should sleep with as many men as you possibly can and you should just do whatever you want. ⁓ onlyFans that is that is on the rise ⁓ I think I mean don't get me wrong, men have many issues as well, but I I think it's very prevalent if you if you look at women at the moment that some of these ⁓ traditional values that are being lost that it's very detrimental to society and and potentially very dangerous if ⁓ women continue to ⁓ value having like I if a career is the only thing valuable in in in their lives and nobody wants to have children anymore, we're not going to be around for much longer. So yeah. Yeah. And and and I absolutely falling birth rates are obviously are something that many governments around the Western world are trying their best to to try to counter, not with much success, sadly. ⁓ and and I think one of the reasons is, as you say, it's because there's been a sea change in kind of the way people think about how to live life and so on. ⁓ and that is often about putting your personal needs and career and everything ⁓ first ⁓ ahead of having children. And there are just some plain physiological, biological reasons why that decreases the birth rate, you have less fertile years in which to potentially have children. ⁓ and nowadays obviously ⁓ th there there is obviously just other things, technologies like birth control and everything else, which all point against ⁓ against it. It's not a simple picture because in a sense I think there are many if you like, causes that come into play. ⁓ the the fact is that the more education people have very often the ⁓ women will like, you know, it just that correlates with having less children overall. ⁓ and as c Western society has become more and more educated generally, that is also true. But I do think you're right that it's it it is also a significant factor of it is, the secularization ⁓ of the West. And that has gone hand in hand with, if you like, A more materialistic way of looking at life, a more individualistic way of looking at life. ⁓ whereas, yeah, in a more in a in a perhaps previous age, which was more naturally religious, the the the natural kind of assumption is that one of the most important things you can do is to have children and to pass on your values and your culture and your family traditions through that. And ⁓ and of course, religion plays a huge part in that and the communal aspect of it. And I think so I think it's a lot of things. And I wouldn't want to say it's just because people no longer believe in God, but it's it's it's like you say, it's more about the breakdown of a religious culture in which people find a a kind of level support through the community that they're part of and the ⁓ the the the the rituals and the de the rhythms, if you like, that that Christian faith can bring into people's lives. And I think as we've turned into a much more individualistic society where we ri don't even know our neighbor, ⁓ let alone, you know, go to church once a week or anything like that. It it does breed a kind of a sense in which people don't step out and take the risk, you know, of having children ⁓ that they used to. So yeah, I I think I think it all comes together. ⁓ I wouldn't want to say it's one particular factor, but I think the the religious factor is a significant part of it. And you say kind of it's it's linked into the the traditional aspect of religion. And again, as you've said, this doesn't prove Christianity true one way or the other, but there's nonetheless there's there's a fact that it you know, absolutely if you look at the statistics, ⁓ the more religious people are, the more likely they are to have more children. ⁓ you know, I I look at myself, I have four children. not that all Christian couples have, you know, that many children, but ⁓ on average, when I look around, I'd say it's much more likely that if you're religious that that you're likely to have, you know, more children than than on average, if you like. ⁓ I do I ⁓ yeah, so so so all of that is true. And what's interesting is I also see because of the things you mentioned, the way in which we're seeing the commodification of sexuality, ⁓ all of the ways in which we're being dehumanized in so many ways by the way we now treat relationships and sex and so on, the way it's been completely divorced from the institution that is designed to bring up children, you know. I think in an interesting way, as that has reached, you know, such a an extreme in today's culture, we're also seeing a pushback against that. And I think we are seeing it particularly among these young men that I mentioned. I think the reason they started turning up for the kind of Jordan Peterson lectures is because they felt life feels empty, ⁓ shallow, meaningless. There's kind of there's no purpose to live for here. ⁓ And I think especially young men have been kind of at the sharp end of what I've called in my book and my podcast a meaning crisis. That as we've lost the religious story, the Christian story that kind of gave shape, at least, to ⁓ so many people's lives, ⁓ I think people have felt cut adrift. They they feel like they don't have ⁓ an anchor ⁓ for life. And I think this is what contributes to not just a meaning crisis, but a mental health crisis that is kind of supercharged by social media, where you're given so many options. But you're also in the constantly in the spotlight of having to curate your identity in front of other people. All of this, and I and I think this is extremely obviously damaging to young women as well. ⁓ I think this this has been but I for some reason it's the young men who seem to be at the front end of that pushback. And it's often the young men that I find are are looking are most intrigued and interested in the traditional aspect of Christianity. They want something about the The rules and the depth and the challenge and, you know, they want something that feels old, mysterious and a bit difficult, actually. And so that's why, you know, maybe we'll come on to talk about some of the statistics, but there seems to be a real resurgence in sort of the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, high church kind of end of the church when it comes to these young people who are exploring faith again. And I I it does seem to be being led by by young men especially. Yeah. And and what are what are some of the ways that Christianity can provide the meaning that so many young men are looking for? I think because Christianity, well, it's it's it's got a number of things. It has depth, ⁓ it goes back a long way. It wasn't just invented yesterday, you know? so many of the things we're kind of being told are are very new ideas. ⁓ and for that reason They haven't really been tested. But Christianity has been tested. And I think when you look at a a a historian like Tom Holland, again, who's kind of you know, comes and his own personal faith convictions tend to come and go a little bit. But just as if you like as an agnostic historian, he will tell you there's no doubt that Christian faith has utterly transformed and shaped the Western world in so many ways that we are just completely blind to, but but they're there if you go looking for them. And I think people are starting to realize that Christianity has this depth, this history, ⁓ has had this transformational effect on culture. And people are starting to realize we we we need something like that to make sense of life. There's this kind of this depth to the to the tradition and the beliefs that kind of can anchor not only individuals in their life, but but whole cultures have kind of been anchored on these fundamental beliefs. What are those? Well, it's it's the idea that humans are made in the image of God. ⁓ that is kind of become so fundamental we forget it, but they it is a actually at the basis of what we would call human rights and the idea of the equality and dignity of every single person. ⁓ but Christianity not only says that, it it makes this extraordinary claim that God himself became human, shared his life with us, and not only that died for us to put us back into relationship with God. And that through him, through his death and his resurrection, we can Have a hope of eternal life. Now, these are huge concepts, but I do think that those concepts kind of give a sense of meaning and purpose in life and a story about what life is about that is actually hard to beat. I I think it's kind of like the best story going. And if you put that against another story, like the atheist story of reality, well, you're really here by accident. ⁓ you know, you're here because of a, you know, an extraordinary number of chance events that took place in the history of our universe. ⁓ but ultimately you just you know, life is what it is. ⁓ it could go well, it could go badly, you don't really have any control over that. ⁓ and you're gonna be here and you're gone the next day. I mean it's a story, but it's not a story that most people can really live their lives by because it's it's a bit of a non story in the end. It doesn't it doesn't have any ultimate meaning or purpose ⁓ built into it. And I think but the problem is that has become in academia at least and in lots of parts of popular culture, kind of the default setting. You know. And and that's I think does naturally tend to a kind of nihilistic, materialistic, selfish kind of way of looking at life. Whereas if you if you believe at the bottom of reality there's a story about a a loving God who created you for a purpose and that even though life is difficult, as it often is, that God has come to to experience life with you and that somehow, through his death and resurrection, he invites you into something that that will make sense of all of this one day. That can be extraordinarily powerful, you know, for people and and and or and and often the only hope, even for people going through desperate times. So so I think this is why Christianity has very again, none of what I've said necessarily makes Christianity true. I'm describing it as as a kind of which story do you prefer? And the atheist may just say, well, hey, tough tough luck, you know. ⁓ the universe doesn't owe you that story. I also happen to think it's true, and I think there are reasons why. there are good reasons, it's an intellectual reasons, if you like, that you should take this story seriously. But I do think it's the story itself and and finding yourself in that story that is the thing that that does give that meaning and that purpose, if you like. Yeah. And does it also have something to do with of a sense of humility that there's something bigger than you? Because I believe that if you're c complete atheist and your life just involves around you and you're solely focused on your your yourself basically that it can also be quite exhausting that if you constantly need to prove yourself to to the world how great you are and ⁓ that you are the the the top dog, like some some sort of manosphere figure. Like it it seems so exhausting to me, you know, that you constantly have to prove to everyone what kind of a big shot you are. Whereas if you believe, like truly believe that there's something bigger than you and and you are yeah, d it it it's kind of it c it gives a sense of peace also because i it it matters less what what you what you want to prove the world. Doesn't mean you you don't have to pursue anything. I think there's a lot of ⁓ great responsibilities that come ⁓ with faith but ⁓ I think Deb might also be be part of it. Would you agree? Totally do agree. Now, I want to say, first of all though, I'm not saying that every atheist is just a selfish, self-obsessed, you know, person. But far from it, I've met many atheists who are who are very kind to their neighbours, ⁓ you know, very interested in justice and, you know, often put me to shame with the way that they they live their lives. So it's not that being an atheist necessarily leads to that. But what I would say, and this will sometimes annoy my atheist friends, is that they didn't get those values from their atheism. ⁓ and ⁓ I I think that those values are much better grounded in Christian faith, the ⁓ values of generosity and humanity and and treating everyone equally. ⁓ and I think to some extent, to the extent that any atheist in today's culture is behaving in those good ways, is because they're actually still ⁓ living in the inheritance of a essentially Christian culture that kind of taught us to be this way. Because there are lots of other ways culture can be, as we know, historically and today, where people don't have equal rights and some people can be bought and sold as the property of other people and and so on. ⁓ human nature, if you like, does not tend to create the kind of culture we actually live in right now. It's and as I said earlier, historians like Tom Holland, I think, have shown quite convincingly that that our particular way of looking at life and what it means to be human very much does come from a very specifically Christian way of understanding life. But I think as you say, the more we lose that story, then I think it is possible that we naturally become more self-obsessed, ⁓ selfish and everything else. We kind of revert back to sadly what human nature often is a at at basis. And so for for that reason, I I think this is the danger, yes. And I think you do see this in our culture, sadly, ⁓ that we see a lot of people who who are becoming more and more, you know, essentially selfish and greedy, that power is coming back as one of the the key ways in which people look at the prism of the world. The the Christian story again is is completely subverts the natural human tendency to essentially use power to dominate and get your own way. It has this extraordinary belief at the center of it that the the the poor shall inherit that that ⁓ strength is found in weakness. At its center is a God who came and was beaten up and crucified. This was not the way people thought God should r you know, work in the ancient world. ⁓ Christianity completely flipped that on its head. But it was through that death, through that willing sacrifice, that ultimately victory came. So so Christianity is very countercultural in that way, and it always will be, I think. But as we lose it, I think that the the natural human instincts tend to come back and that's where you see the manosphere type stuff. It's a kind of it's almost a pagan world actually coming back into the modern world. When you have an Andrew Tate who basically whose advice is, you know, sleep with as many women, control as many women as possible, ⁓ so that you're the top of the pack. You're you that that would be very normal for some of the ancients who kept whose kings kept high reams of women. That that was kind of the way w life worked. Of course. Why wouldn't you? You know? So if we're objecting to that, I think we're doing it on the basis of the Christian revolution. It's is because that was the revolution that said, no, you must be faithful to one woman or one man, and you need to make a commitment to that person for the whole of your life until death do you part ⁓ in sickness and in health ⁓ and so on. So these ⁓ the but yeah, absolutely. I think as we lose that story Other stories start to compete for people's minds and attention. But in a funny way, it's almost in the process of that that we start to recognize just what we have with Christianity. I think it's when people start to go against the the values of Christian faith that other people start to realize, hang on, why do we believe this stuff? Why do we believe in human rights, equality, dignity, compassion, freedom, progress? And they realize it's actually quite difficult to just base those things on a purely secular, naturalistic, atheistic worldview. They they people like Tom Holland suddenly start to realise it came from somewhere. It came from the Christian story. And and so I think this is all part of what, as I say, I've described as this surprising rebirth of belief in God. This kind of recognition, ⁓ we've we've lost something and we need we potentially need to get it back if we can. Yeah. And the the the a repopularization of Christianity, I think For me it's it's dangerous because you can live in in echo chambers, right? So for example, I see that one of my f ⁓ fitness influencers that I follow, ⁓ random like all of a sudden turns to Jesus. Then I watch that video and then all of a sudden I see my my my entire Instagram feed is full full with these videos. You start thinking about it and Then it's it's on your YouTube as well, and then you start seeing it on different places. So I think social media can give ⁓ for better or for worse, but a very ⁓ false sense. I had a really interesting conversation just recently. I haven't released it yet, with a fitness influencer. I d ⁓ may probably not the same one, but who has basically kind of found himself in church several times. He's he's an Australia guy called Ben Pulson, and he ⁓ He I think won the Australian version of Ninja Warrior, you know. Incredibly like he w at one time he was at the peak of physical fitness. But he told me how, you know, he was also suffering from crippling anxiety at the same time. Even while he was doing these incredible feats on national TV, he also had this kind of absolute sense of just I n hey, I'm not doing enough and I can never achieve and and a kind of real sense and And I think so many people feel this today. And I I think what you described earlier of the the hustle culture of the kind of twenty four seven social media feed cycle, it just makes people feel like I'm never gonna be enough. ⁓ because it is a ⁓ a productivity, how well you do, how how big an audience you get, how many clicks you get, how many likes you get thing. And that is exhausting for people. It's incredibly burdensome. And ⁓ and it's a mountain you'll never get to the top of. And if you ever did get to the top of it, you'll realise what was the point of this, because it turns out I'm burned out, I'm, you know, anxious, I'm always looking out for who's gonna steal my crown and everything else. Yeah, Christian faith should i it is the antidote to that, I believe. That's not to say that Christians aren't sometimes guilty of falling into these traps. They are, you know, because I think it is the nature of sin. ⁓ pride, you know, it's you know, I am a Christian involved in the media world. And I know that I frequently look at someone else and think, ⁓ I'm not doing as well as they are. Look at all the clicks, look at all the views they're getting. Maybe I need to up my game. And I have to stop myself and I have to say, This is not about you, Justin. It's about God. And y all you are being called to do is to do faithfully what God is calling you to do and find your reward in Him, not in any of those other things. And that is the the core of Christian discipleship, constantly dying to the world, as it's called, and living for Christ. And in that is the only place I believe where you will find actually true satisfaction, because that is based in something that is outside of your ability. ⁓ you you may be blessed with great abilities, you may be not have many at all. Does that mean we're just going to live in a world then where where some people are satisfied and some people aren't? Well, it turns out even the people with great abilities, if you go and talk to the person who has absolutely conquered their field, you will often find they didn't find the satisfaction they were looking for, ⁓ that they thought it w they would find there. That's why I truly believe it's only where whatever your abilities are, it's only when we surrender them to Christ that we find the true satisfaction we're looking for. In him we find, you know, the rest. You know, he says ⁓ come to me, my yoke is easy and my burden is light. He's saying there's this this concept of grace in Christianity. You don't have to strive because God, through Jesus, has done it all for us. He's forgiven us. He's given us everything we need. All he says is, follow me. Don't try it in your own strength. And I think this is very liberating for many people. I think it is genuinely one of the reasons why we're seeing this turn back to Christian faith in some quarters, because I think young people are burned out and strung out, you know, by the kind of demands of this 24-7 social media culture. And it's so easy for the worst forms of religion to be on display as well, there. You know, I think people often think we live in a very non-religious culture. We actually still live in a quite religious culture, but it's religious in all the wrong ways. People can be demonized, cast out as heretics, you can be cancelled if you don't have the right view on something. And this is all You know, i thi this is a kind of quasi-religious kind of thing. You people very often have very religious beliefs around issues around sexuality and gender and politics. You know, these become very sacred to them. ⁓ but they become idols, you know, they become the worst things to defend and fall out with other people about, and they create these culture wars that we're living through. So I think people are just tired of that, you know, and Christianity offers a kind of a peace, a grace. ⁓ a place where you don't have to be the measure of all things. ⁓ you can surrender that to someone else. ⁓ so yeah, I d I do genuinely think that's a big part of the story. Yeah. And is it also being reflected in the numbers or is it just as soon as you enter into the algorithm of of Christianity, then you get this worldview that ⁓ everyone is turning to to Jesus again. Is that like an accurate description of what's happening? Or are the churches like actually getting fuller? Are are more people turning to religion? What are some of the numbers on this ⁓ issue? Well this is really yeah this is really what people want to know, isn't it? Is it is this just your interesting ideas, Justin? Is this just falling into an algorithm ⁓ and then everyone seems to be talking about Christianity around you? I totally get that. And it's possible to live in completely different algorithmic streams. And ⁓ I sometimes talk to people who aren't in the kind of Christian, atheist, whatever algorithmic stream, and they're like, ⁓ I haven't really heard of any who is this Jordan Peterson guy? Never heard of him. So it's kind of that's fine. ⁓ that exists. I think though and when I published the book three years ago, The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God, all I really had was a sense that things were changing at a more kind of cultural level. I didn't really have any statistics to suggest there had been a change at a ground level. And lots of people called me out on that when I published the book and said, you know, where's where's the evidence, Justin? ⁓ interestingly, I think there has been a lot of evidence in the in the last three years to this. ⁓ I you know, pr pretty I mean firstly, there is kind of firstly the the sort of anecdotal evidence. I just at the time that I published the book, a lot of people started talking about the fact that they also sensed a change. ⁓ it was just easier to have conversations about God with the person on the street. ⁓ a lot of pastors Talking to me about the fact they were seeing a lot of people, young people especially, just showing up at the doors of their church without having kind of been invited, even, ⁓ especially these young men, maybe clutching a Bible because they'd heard some influencer online talking about the value of Christianity. And again, I there weren't specific numbers attached to this, but enough people said this to me that I thought and they said that we haven't seen this before. This this is new, that I thought, okay, some something seems to be shifting, at least at that level. ⁓ and then there were some data that started to come through. I think one of the first things I noticed was, you know, in Scandinavia there some some studies starting to show a rise in religiosity among young men. ⁓ there was a survey in Finland which showed that ⁓ initially. And then other surveys in ⁓ various parts of Norway, Denmark, Sweden have also shown that there does appear to be some kind of turn up. Now, it doesn't mean that it's completely like the churches you're still got, if you like, in many parts of those Scandinavian countries where there's been a a long decline of religiosity and people going to church or being baptized, you've still got most people who are religious are still at the older end and are still kind of probably dying faster than young people are perhaps coming to face. So it's y what I think we're seeing in in some cases is is the decline is slowing. But what's interesting is if you do look at where what's happening at the younger end, there does seem to be a, you know, fairly significant uptick. In Sweden, you know, there's there's been this quite significant study at the beginning of this year showing ⁓ a real notable rise in the number of confirmations ⁓ going on in the Swedish church, ⁓ especially among these young men and so on. So there's been those kinds of markers which have been very interesting to see. ⁓ here in the UK, ⁓ there's been some interesting ⁓ sort of evidence for and then apparently taken away again. So there was this big study called the Quiet Revival here in the UK. It came out ⁓ in Easter twenty twenty five. And it was quite remarkable because ⁓ an organization called Bible Society had done two surveys, one in twenty eighteen and one in twenty twenty-four, basically asking the same questions about religiosity, church going, and other things. And they found an enormous difference between the twenty eighteen and twenty twenty-four survey, ⁓ especially among young people. And it seemed that the number of young people saying they were going to church regularly had gone from about four percent in twenty eighteen, ⁓ leapt up to about ⁓ 16% in twenty twenty four, and that was even higher among young men. And ⁓ they, you know, this was done through a a polling company called Ugov, ⁓ very reputable, you know, used by lots of different organizations for different things. ⁓ now these ⁓ I and when they ta started talking about these figures, I thought, well this does kind of fit with what I've been hearing anecdotally, you know, and what I've been talking about on the surprising rebirth of belief in God. But even I was quite surprised at the the the difference. ⁓ And and soon those figures started to be contested by other groups saying, well, it doesn't match other data we have from church's own, you know, records of how many people are coming on a Sunday and that kind of thing. ⁓ but they were, you know, they were defending the f the figures and so on. Then just only just before this Easter Just Gone, twenty twenty six, the the Bible Society actually ⁓ withdrew that survey because they found after looking more into the data or getting UGOV, who had done the survey for them, ⁓ they found that there were some flaws in the way they had gathered the data and that some key technologies that should have been turned on to stop ⁓ you know the data kind of being unreliable hadn't been turned on, it turned out. So this caused quite a big controversy at the time because this had been you know this this had been a very well publicized survey and so on. And so a lot of people turned around and said, Well, there you go. It goes to show there is no revival, there is no rebirth just in you know, the the the survey you were depending on has has been proven false. Now, absolutely that survey has been withdrawn. It should be withdrawn. I believe Bible Society are going to try and do it again, but with, you know, more reliable figures and so on. But what it doesn't show is that nothing's happening. It just shows that there was a faulty survey. Because there are lots of other data points that again, I think you you cannot ignore. I could I mean just to give you a few more, Bible sales. Bible sales have been rising in the UK and in America for the last five years in in a completely unexpected way. Against an otherwise stagnant book market, there's been an over 100% increase in Bible sales in the UK. The publishers say, and I've spoken with some of them, this is not down to any clever marketing technique. It's just people are going out and buying Bibles more. That that's coming from somewhere. You can't kind of argue with commercial metrics like that. ⁓ you could look at Christian music streaming again on Spotify and other places. There's been a huge surge in Christian music streaming over the last few years. Again, that's not doesn't seem to be related to a you know a a kind of PR thing. It's it's just people are looking out for and and finding more Christian music. ⁓ you could look at ⁓ yeah, in a number of dioceses here in the UK, Catholic dioceses especially, they've seen record numbers of people coming forward for confirmation and baptism over the last several years, there's been a significant upturn in those. In France, famously secular country, for three years in a row, they've seen the largest number of adult converts to Catholicism ⁓ at each of their Easter visuals in the last three years, in living memory. So every every year in the last three years there's been so it was over 20,000. Now in a country as big as France, that's still a small number of people, but in terms of the Catholic Church, They've never seen that many people coming forward as adult converts for in Catholicism. So again, that's those are just a few examples. ⁓ I could go on and give give more. There's other surveys showing openness among Gen Z to spirituality in a way that is not the case among their parents or grandparents. Something is happening. ⁓ and I think you do need to take it seriously. I think there is, as I've called it, a surprising rebirth of belief in God happening. Now that That can go off in lots of different directions. It's not a simple story. There's other factors, there's political factors that are coming in. There's all kinds of different things happening, but something is happening. And for me, at the core of that, ⁓ you know, below all of the other social factors that we've already talked about, some of them, I think there is ultimately a hunger. There's a hunger for a better story than the one we've been given. And and for me, I think that's what's driving especially a lot of these these young people, you know. Yeah. And I I think it it also makes sense that ⁓ and I don't mean this in a political way, but it's just factual that we've seen ⁓ that the West was built on Christian values and over the last twenty years we have grown to be a more multicultural society where ⁓ many people from very different cultures and religio religions have started moving to the West. And I can also imagine that ⁓ a lot of people who were atheist or didn't really think about it also have a sense of going back to the basics, going back to where it started, because ⁓ yeah, being part of that community gives more a security than just having to to see all these other groups that are ⁓ having their cultures, are having their religions, are having their celebrations together. ⁓ so I think it also makes sense if you see what's happening on a broader spectrum, apart from just missing that sense of of purpose in in everyone's life. I think I think what you're describing there is is another important part of what it means of what we humans are looking for, which is not just purpose but identity. You know, if we don't feel like we know who we are ⁓ not just what we're made for, but who we are. I think it it c it can feel, yeah, like like we're cut adrift. And so I think we have kind of had an identity crisis in the West, because the identity we once had was was again shaped by the Christian story and the religious community we were part of. As we lose that, we're kind of exposed to all kinds of other possible identities, you know, and you have so many to choose from today. ⁓ but I think people feel like, well, c can I just slip in and out of any identity? Is it just something that's purely made up, or, you know, I I can have one day and lose the next. And I think they do see other religious expressions that seem to have a much more grounded sense of who they are and and what they're here for. So I I mean I think that the the one that we're probably both thinking of is Islam, you know, and that's been very ⁓ there's been a huge rise in the number of Muslims in the West over the last couple of decades. And I think Whether people kind of whatever people make of that, and there are obviously people who are deeply uncomfortable with some of ways in which Islam is being presented in the West and and some of you know so so some of those things, I understand that. But ⁓ at the very least, I think it what it's made is people here in the UK have met people who have said I've started to describe myself as Christian again because I know I'm not Muslim, but I don't find the atheist or secular or something else describes me. I I it's it's too weak a description. I need something more interesting and coherent and tangible to hold on to. So these are often people who don't necessarily know that much about Christianity. Maybe I might say, well look, do you go to church? And they say, well very, very occasionally, you know. But then nonetheless they want a an identity and they feel like at least Christianity has a kind of, as I said earlier, a kind of a depth, a history Something that feels more rooted. ⁓ I think that can be a good thing. I think it's it can be a way in to people finding the real thing, if you like. I think there is a danger as well. I think it's what sometimes people call cultural Christianity. You know, people say, I want you know, even Richard Dawkins, you know, very the very well known atheist, has been happy to describe himself as a cultural Christian because he likes the the cathedrals and the carols at Christmas and the kind of general culture. That Christianity has helped to to engender. And particularly he said this in the context of being concerned about the influence of Islam in the UK. So so he doesn't want Christianity to die out, interestingly, even though he spent a lot of his career trying to convince people there's no God. So it's it's a kind of strange contradiction for for for him. But I meet a lot of people who are kind of happy with the kind of cultural aspects of Christianity and even to call themselves Christian because of that. I do think, though, the danger is if you're just Trying to restore a cultural Christianity. You're kind of trying to get the effects of the thing without the thing itself. And I just think you're not going to get that. You're going to get a kind of idolatrous, sub-biblical version of it if you're just trying to bring back Christian values or bring back Christendom. The reason Christendom developed, the reason cult Christian cultural values developed was because people went out into the world believing in Jesus Christ. And that he had completely changed the world, their world, and they went out to change the world in his name. ⁓ so I think ⁓ I think I would encourage anyone who is, you know, would love loves the idea of Christian culture and Christian values to say, I think you should go start going to church and investigate this person upon all whom all of this is based. ⁓ a a good example ⁓ of this, I think, is Ayan Hirsi Ali, who you probably know of, ⁓ someone who, you know, came to the West, came to the to the Netherlands, in fact, ⁓ as a political activist having fled a fundamentalist Islamic background in Somalia, but became a very outspoken atheist activist. For a number of years, she was part of the New Atheism sharing stages with Christopher Hitchens and Dawkins and Sam Harris. ⁓ wrote her own bestselling kind of anti-religion book, Infidel, but eventually fell into a kind of ⁓ a kind of depression really. ⁓ Alcoholism because she just couldn't really make sense of life on a purely atheistic framework. And in her own, you know, she's described this herself. At an intellectual level, she was kind of converted by that Tom Holland thesis that Christianity is, in fact, the bedrock of the culture we've created. And she came to realize atheism, science and atheism and the Enlightenment really all flowed downstream from Christianity, really. But she also had this personal meaning crisis where she She was challenged actually by a a a psychiatrist, ⁓ the counselor who she was seeing, who said, I think you're spiritually bankrupt, Ayan. Have you tried praying? And she said, Well, I can't possibly pray. The God I was raised with was a monster. And and this counselor said to her, Well, what kind of God might you be willing to believe in? And Ayan started to just kind of go along with it and describe the kind of God she might be willing to believe in. And she realized, she says, as she was describing that God, she was basically describing Jesus Christ. And so she thought, maybe I don't need to invent a new God. Maybe I should investigate this person who claimed to be God, Jesus. And so she started praying and she started going to church with her husband, Neil Ferguson, the historian. And in her own words, God completely turned her life upside down. And they were both baptized ⁓ about a year and a half ago as adult converts to Christian faith. And ⁓ and I think with someone like Aaron Hersey Ali it's so interesting because she's almost encapsulates the thesis of my book in in one person's story. The new atheism, which seemed so interesting and and to to have such an intellectual kind of sheen, is proved to be an illusion. It it did not have the power to sustain anything, her own life or a culture. And when she discovered the source and she surrendered herself to the source, it not only gave her a personal new sense, you know, her her her Depression lifted, her alcoholism went away. ⁓ sh I think she's also come to see that it this is the story on which, you know, our culture is founded and and we need to press forward. And so I I find it really interesting to see instances like that where, you know, arguably the most famous female atheist in the world comes to faith. You know, could happen to anyone right now, I think, you know, looking at what's happening. Yeah. And w if we're if we if we make it a little personal, right? So I wouldn't consider myself a Christian, I am also not an atheist. I consider myself to be agnostic in the sense that I don't really know what to believe, right? But if we go back to the point you raised in the very beginning of our conversation, is that ⁓ and and also just now with the cultural ⁓ Christianity, like you there's a difference between believing in the values of Christianity and believing that it is valuable. Wobble rather than actually believing something, right? And like if I'm being completely honest, like at this moment, like I don't truly believe in God. I know that it would probably feel different. ⁓ is staying like agnostic, is that something I would want to stay forever? I don't know. Am I interested in Exploring something like Christianity? Well, obviously, I mean we're having this conversation today. ⁓ so what would you recommend people or me if they ⁓ at this moment don't truly believe but are open to exploring some options? Where do you go from here? Well, ⁓ I I'm gonna quote the ⁓ seventeenth century mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal. to you, Julius. He was a an amazing Christian thinker, philosopher, and mathematician. And he had this wonderful phrase. He said, ⁓ make good people wish that Christianity were true. And I think that's where you maybe are, that you kind of you can see the value of it. You you think that wouldn't it be good if this were true? But you don't yet believe it's true. Okay. And he said, so make people wish that Christianity were true and then show them that it is. And and I think we're at a stage in our culture, and it sounds like you're at this stage, Julius, where you kind of you've seen the problem. You've seen what happens when people don't have a Christian foundation to the culture. And you you kind of sense that we need something more than this. And you've perhaps bumped into Christian thinkers and philosophers and people who do believe in God and really, you know, and you think, wow, okay, they seem maybe there's something here. ⁓ And it's kind of left you kind of maybe with a taste for for wishing it ⁓ maybe it could be true. I've met so many people in your situation, Julius, who might describe themselves as lapsed atheists. They've kind of lost their faith in atheism, if you like. They kind of see it as it doesn't really hold up, it doesn't doesn't say enough for life, and they're but they haven't yet crossed over to religious belief, to to Christian faith, because I don't know, there's a you know, it's very you know it It's a weird thing, you know, it's some big claims here. There is a God, that God became human in Jesus Christ, He died, he rose again. You know, ⁓ all kind of miraculous claims. Okay, I get it. It's kind of tricky. what I would do though is I would say, start to investigate. ⁓ Christian faith the interesting about Christian faith is it's it's a very testable faith. Okay. ⁓ the the key claims of Christianity are historical claims that someone called Jesus lived, died and rose again. That is the very core of the Christian claim, okay? And I think that and that is a claim that is open to public scrutiny. It was at the time. There were people writing, living at the time who bumped into these claims. There were people who wrote down their accounts of these claims. There were people who could have said, This didn't happen, you know, at the time, you know, if people were claiming that things happened that didn't happen, they you know. It's it's almost unique actually among any other religion in being like that. ⁓ you go to Islam ⁓ you go to some of the very ancient religions like Hinduism, ⁓ you go to ⁓ more modern religions even like Mormonism, they tend to be based on private revelations to Muhammad. You know, an angel told me, and I wrote the Quran, ⁓ Joseph you know, Joseph Smith claims an angel gave, you know, gave him the ability to translate some golden plates, you know. But they're not testable. They're kind of private angelic claims that that Christianity is based on a set of historical ⁓ events that were open to people, to the public. Okay. And that's why when you read the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they are biographies of a person who lived, who died, and who his followers claim came back to life. If you read the Book of Acts, which is like a sequel to Luke's Gospel, it's full of extraordinary historical data and ⁓ claims. So I would say that the place to begin is just to Familiarize yourself with those. I mean, even if you come out of the editor and not believing, you won't have wasted your time because these have been foundational texts for the world. Okay. So ⁓ you sh everyone should read the Bible at some point in their life, whether or not they believe it or not. Okay. ⁓ but I believe that those accounts really can stand up. ⁓ i i when you look at them against the background of other ancient texts, other ancient biographies, they are incredibly Detailed, precise, have all kinds of ⁓ geographical, historical data in them that that really tie them to the time and place that they're that that that is being written about. ⁓ they have all kinds of other historical credibility that stacks up incredibly well against other similar ancient data. So I think Christianity is is kind of needs to be taken seriously. Go and look at it, go and investigate it, find out, okay. The other thing is just start going to church, okay, find out 'Cause it's not something just to be dealt with at an intellectual level. As y as you know, there is a kind of personal, emotional c aspect to this. ⁓ The good news is ⁓ any good church is not gonna look down on you for coming in as a as a skeptic or a doubter. If you came to my church, we love having people who are not not there yet. We we welcome everyone. And just start to hang out and see what difference does this make to people. What would happen if I tried praying? You know, test it, you know, see what happens. ⁓ And there's all kinds of other things. I c I could recommend books and podcasts and all kinds of things. I I wrote a book the my most recent book actually is called Why I'm Still a Christian after twenty years of talking with skeptics and atheists, the reason I believe. I just think, you know, I I I'll send a copy to you, Julius, in case it's helpful. But the it's it's just my case for faith. I just think there's lots of good intellectual reasons to take this seriously. ⁓ I think you can I think there's good reasons to take the story, the history of Christianity seriously. I think it fulfills us in all kinds of emotional and psychological ways that are are part of the evidence. But ultimately, and this is how I end the book, you're never gonna know that unless you try try it, unless you step in. You you can kind of spend a lot of time, it's like someone walking up to a church, say, and they may look and admire the architecture and ⁓ it looks beautiful and so on. but from the outside, very often. When you look at those windows of a church or an old church, they look quite ⁓ dark and sort of pale. They're they're they're sort of because you're looking at them from the wrong side. But if you go into the church and those stained glass windows suddenly let the light in, you see them in a completely different way, and it bathes the whole interior of the church with with glorious technicolor light. And it's a different experience experiencing it from the inside than on the outside. And many people, I think, need to spend a lot of time. prodding and poking and asking questions from the outside. But it's only once you try stepping in that you realise what it really is. And for me, that's that that is what you have to do at some point. That's what is called faith. It's kind of doing something on the basis of what you've tried to understand, but you're never going to see the full picture until you you step in and and kind of put some weight on that. And ⁓ and just try it, see what happens. Yeah, it I Really don't mean this in a disrespectful way or or I don't want to degrade the Bible ⁓ to ⁓ and compare it to a self-help book. ⁓ but it really reminds me of a book ⁓ that was written by Ellen Carr ⁓ stopping ⁓ how to stop smoking because I used to be a heavy smoker and someone gifted the book to me. And the whole premise of getting people to read the book is you can read this book. You have to smoke cigarettes while reading the book. So you don't even have to quit while reading the book. If you don't want to quit smoking cigarettes after you finish the book, that's perfectly fine. I mean, if anything, it's kind of a funny book. ⁓ you'll have a good time reading it, and you'll just continue your your life as a smoker just the way you are. No, no problem whatsoever. Or you are convinced by the book, and then you successfully quit smoking. So either way, it's yeah, you don't really have anything You've got nothing to lose. Yeah. Yeah. So that was it kind of reminded me. It's kind of it sounds a little bit like Pascal's wager, going back to the person I mentioned earlier. You know, he has this famous thing of he says basically at a purely logical level, you should try Christianity because you've potentially got everything to gain. And really nothing to lose if it turns out it's it's not true. ⁓ there's been lots of written on that because that's a very simplistic way of of of ⁓ looking at Pascal's wager. But I think if there's something to it, you know, you should you should give it a try. It makes sense. Just at a purely logical level, give it a try and see what happens. Yeah. Well I've got some ⁓ some homework ⁓ to do, ⁓ Justin. This was ⁓ this was so ⁓ so good. Is there anything before we wrap it up that you would like to emphasize or ⁓ touch on before we ⁓ end it today? I I d I'm just really interested actually, just in the last few minutes of this, just to hear a little bit more from your end, Julius. And I've really appreciated it. I loved hearing some of your own personal journey there. What are you sensing then? You you said right at the beginning of our conversation you grew up and it was a very kind of secular Christianity was sort of very much in the background, ⁓ an unusual thing. Have you sensed that changing in the Netherlands ⁓ in recent years? Well, I mean when I was in high school, like I said, ⁓ nobody in my my class like really actively ⁓ believed in Christianity. I also wouldn't really consider Amsterdam to to be in a in a major yeah comeback, if you will. But I I do travel a lot and I I do speak a lot of ⁓ people my age that are also into fitness. I I really like working out, ⁓ that are also traveling, that are they're that are building their businesses. So ⁓ usually people that want something more out of life just to to not just work their nine to fives, go home and then ⁓ put on the watch the television and and and wait until it's weekend. But ⁓ yeah I I speak a lot with people who are yeah like I said like they're they're entrepreneurs they're they're they're building something and I do believe in those circles that I feel there is some more more interest so more more more openness if you will to to the idea of of Christianity. ⁓ and I think that also goes for me. ⁓ I'm I'm at least not right now, not not an active ⁓ believer. but I do notice that ⁓ life can feel ⁓ a little bit empty ⁓ sometimes. ⁓ what's the point of all of this, right? I I try to I have all these goals for myself and I wanna achieve a lot of things, which I are isn't necessarily a bad thing. ⁓ but Usually what happens with goals is you achieve them and even slightly before you achieve them, you're already in anticipation of reaching your goal, you already start moving the goalposts, right? It's it's never enough. I think that's a good thing. I think that's how people get better and and how we strive to be the best versions of ourselves, ⁓ to use a cliche there. ⁓ but it's also Pretty depressing that it's just like, what's the point? If every time I set a goal, I reach the goal, I change the goal. ⁓ so the goal is is ev eventually to keep playing. But what's really what's really the point of that? So sometimes I am thinking about sh sh yeah, shouldn't there be be something more to life than just reaching my goals? And you're at the stage in life where You ha you're at the peak really of your powers right now, right, Julius? You know, you're young, you're fit, ⁓ you've got lots of mental energy, yeah, and so on. The reality is death is coming. And that's that's the reality. And I think it is one of the reasons why people often in their later years start to to reconsider what their life was for, because you lose the power, frankly, your mental ability, your physical ability, you know. And and if your whole life has been built on your ability. To to utilize those things, you suddenly I think it does leave a lot of people wondering, well, what is the purpose of my life anymore? If your life's been built on that, then when something comes along to knock it down, like ill health, age, death, the a family relationship, a bankruptcy, whatever, then I th I think this is this is what Jesus described as building your life on the sand. And when the storms come, the house falls down. But he says, anyone who builds their life on my teaching, on me. They're building it on a rock. And when the storms come, they will find their house survives through the storm. And for me, that's that's a central metaphor, you know. Yeah. ⁓ again, it doesn't prove Christianity's true, but people who do build their lives on this instead of a career, instead of success, instead of a family, instead of all the other things, not that there's anything wrong with any of those things, but they will not be a solid foundation for your life. So I I think that's yeah, that's a wonderful thing to start looking into. And I can see that you've already started to see that. You need a a different kind of foundation maybe, which is really interesting. Yeah, no, d ⁓ to finally just ⁓ I I completely understand. Like there's some fragility to it, right? Because ⁓ I I tore my ACL ⁓ about a year ago, I had surgery in January, so I was ⁓ on crutches for two months and yeah, as someone who works out every single day, that's like it's it's it's it's terrible. ⁓ so all of a sudden like this this this whole identity ⁓ is is stripped away from you. So yeah, there's definitely ⁓ some ⁓ some fragility to it and ⁓ yeah I think it's ⁓ it's worth ⁓ exploring. Like I said, I ⁓ I got some ⁓ some homework to do, but thank you so much for this ⁓ incredible conversation ⁓ today. I had such a good time ⁓ talking ⁓ to you, Justin. It was ⁓ super, super interesting. And I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much, Julius. Thank you. Yeah, where can people go if they wanna ⁓ follow all your ⁓ work? Yeah, best place to go to find all the podcasts I've mentioned, the Uncommon Ground Show, the surprising rebirth of belief in God, and my books too is simply my website, JustinBriy dot com. ⁓ you can sign up to the newsletter there. You can click through to the shows and you can support the work as well if you want. But JustinBriy dot com is the place. Awesome. I'll I'll make sure to ⁓ to put it in the in the show notes. Thank you. ⁓ thank you so much, ⁓ Justin. This was ⁓ incredible.