Latest / Travel Mug Podcast / Exploring Italy with PBS Dream of Italy Host Kathy McCabe

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Exploring Italy with PBS Dream of Italy Host Kathy McCabe · Travel Mug Podcast

• 0:00
  Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Travel Mug podcast today we are so excited to be joined by Kathy McCabe.
• 0:08
  She is the host of PBS's Dream of Italy and the editor in chief of Dream of Italy Magazine.
• 0:16
  Kathy is one of America's leading voices on Italian culture and travel, and we're so excited to chat with her today about why Italy is poised to be one of the hottest destinations of 2026, but like any year, really.
• 0:31
  Yes.
• 0:32
  Welcome to the show, Kathy.
• 0:33
  you so much.
• 0:35
  And just to add to my resume, I also host a PBS show called Dream of Europe.
• 0:39
  Yes.
• 0:40
  who want to go further afield.
• 0:41
  I know we're gonna talk more about Italy, but I was just looking, um, we're just dropping the episodes on YouTube.
• 0:46
  They have been appearing on PBS, so I was working on that today, so I was like, oh yeah, I have another show too.
• 0:53
  Just another show to throw in there.
• 0:55
  took a couple years off my life.
• 0:56
  That one.
• 0:59
  Well, we wanna start things off, so not quite at the beginning of your journey, in terms of the TV show.
• 1:06
  But we would love to hear about going back a bit further about that trip you took to Italy after college with your mother.
• 1:12
  As I feel reading about you, this has so much to do with where you are in life.
• 1:19
  So why did you travel to Italy at that point in your life, and how did that trip lead to such a deep love of the country?
• 1:26
  I might cry.
• 1:27
  I, it's, it's the, it's the pivotal, pivotal probably experience of my life.
• 1:32
  So when I was growing up, my grandparents were my daycare and they, their parents, so my great grandparents were from Italy.
• 1:40
  And so there were always these nuggets of sort of Italian culture in my grandparents' home and the food and the garden.
• 1:47
  And they knew some Italian and would speak Italian to each other, um, when they didn't want me to know what they were talking about.
• 1:55
  And I was really close to them.
• 1:56
  I mean like almost more close to them than my um, parents.
• 2:00
  Although I was very close to my parents, I was an only child.
• 2:03
  And so when I was in high school as this project, I wrote a biography of my grandfather and explored the town, that his father was from.
• 2:14
  And it was a town that my grandfather had tried to visit in the sixties when he was on a cruise.
• 2:19
  He got off in Naples.
• 2:20
  He asked to be taken to this town called Casa Verde.
• 2:23
  He didn't know there were two.
• 2:25
  He was taken to the wrong one.
• 2:26
  He couldn't get, 'cause the one was, uh, over a mountain and he couldn't get to it and then back to this ship, and it was one of the deepest regrets of his life.
• 2:36
  That he never saw this town and he would talk about it here and there.
• 2:39
  So I was graduating from college and the funniest thing is I did European studies with like a concentration in France, France and French.
• 2:47
  But I was super interested in Italy and my mom, and it's so funny, I'll mention my mom, they both passed away now, but.
• 2:54
  There were my father, mother, my mother and father were happily married.
• 2:57
  , He would stay home with the dog and we would go, he came a couple times, so she wanted to take me to Italy for my college graduation.
• 3:06
  And we said, oh my God, if we go to Italy, we have to go to this town.
• 3:11
  And we showed up in this town, two blondes, and we're blonde because actually our family were Norman Invaders in Southern Italy.
• 3:19
  Something a lot of people don't know, uh, or so a lot of people do know, but then others are surprised.
• 3:25
  And, you know, we discovered the town and my mother said it was like Brigadoon, that it came, that the town only comes alive, you know, once every a hundred years.
• 3:33
  And it, it really had been about a hundred years since my great-grandfather had left.
• 3:38
  And then, you know, his truth is stranger than fiction.
• 3:42
  The next day in the United States, my grandfather died.
• 3:46
  Oh my gosh.
• 3:47
  we fulfilled his dream.
• 3:50
  And even when I named this business Dream of Italy, I didn't put it all together that like it was his dream that was passed on to me, but the, the name is not probably the best thing I've ever done.
• 4:01
  so, so then I worked in journalism.
• 4:05
  I worked in TV news, and I would just go to Italy on my vacations all the time, often with my mom.
• 4:11
  And the reason I would go with my mom is my mom was retired, so it was literally easy for her to go.
• 4:17
  And she was happy to pay for some of it too.
• 4:19
  So, and then it became a thing if I didn't take her, you know?
• 4:23
  Um, so, so that, that's sort of, and then I started this publication 23 years ago.
• 4:32
  Yeah.
• 4:33
  Yeah.
• 4:33
  So let's talk about that.
• 4:35
  So you started your career in like network news field.
• 4:39
  So how did Dream of Italy magazine and membership website, uh, come about in 2002?
• 4:47
  And then how did that then lead to the, the series Dream of Italy?
• 4:51
  So I worked in TV news.
• 4:53
  I worked, one of my first jobs was I worked for Peter Jennings, which if you're old, older, you would know who he was.
• 4:59
  Yeah.
• 4:59
  guys probably might not know who he was, but he was really famous anchor.
• 5:03
  And the one thing with working at ABC and then I worked in the investigative unit.
• 5:07
  The one thing with that job is you could never come back and not have the answer.
• 5:11
  You could never say no.
• 5:12
  Um.
• 5:14
  know, my eyes hurt.
• 5:15
  I've had freelancers say, my eyes hurt today.
• 5:17
  Like, all this stuff, right?
• 5:20
  job, you know, I, it, it, it, no was never possible.
• 5:24
  You, like, you went and got or did what you needed to do.
• 5:27
  So it was, it was such a fundamental job for me for the future, but.
• 5:32
  I worked in tv then I moved to USA today and I worked in their politics section then in their travel section.
• 5:38
  And I was going to Italy and , one of our contributors that I edited, his name is Rudy Maxa.
• 5:44
  He had a print newsletter and I decided, oh my gosh, I wanna do an Italy print newsletter.
• 5:49
  His was general and he said, you should really do a, a niche kind of thing.
• 5:54
  And so I started Dream of Italy.
• 5:56
  Like, not really, I mean, I was in my twenties.
• 5:59
  But I'm very tenacious.
• 6:02
  I'm like the terriers that I love and, , that's how that started.
• 6:06
  .
• 6:06
  Awesome.
• 6:07
  And so then how did that lead into, uh, the TV series?
• 6:10
  How did that come about?
• 6:12
  So I was doing this magazine, well, it was a print newsletter and digital, and it was always both.
• 6:17
  So I was way ahead of my time and I, I still think I'm like, weirdly not ahead or behind.
• 6:22
  I still do print.
• 6:24
  I'm just, people like getting it in the mail and they renew far more often.
• 6:28
  And so why not?
• 6:29
  You know, there's still some things that are, sacred and every time I think I'm not gonna keep doing print, I do., So I mean, I was like 10 years, 12 years in I, I don't know how many years in.
• 6:40
  And this director approached me, me, um, about turning it into a PBS series and that's how it came about.
• 6:49
  But the whole time even now most of my job, although I love the content and I love Italy and I love being on camera, I don't love doing social media on camera, but I do love doing the TV show.
• 7:01
  That's 'cause I have a makeup artist who makes me look really good when it's every day.
• 7:05
  I'm like, um, but I do like a lot most of my job is the business part of it all.
• 7:13
  Right, right.
• 7:15
  it, raising the money.
• 7:16
  PBS is funded by corporate sponsors and foundations, and so it's, it's very interesting and unusual, this sort of hybrid role that I have.
• 7:28
  Yeah, and I, I think going back to all of that, because dream of Italy is more than even what we've already just discussed.
• 7:34
  It offer offers many services like travel planning plus a blog, a TV show, including a second one called Dream of Europe, which you mentioned, which is new as of 2025 from what I understand, a podcast of the same name, apparel, the magazine.
• 7:49
  Kathy, I'm tired.
• 7:50
  It's a lot.
• 7:51
  I, I, I, I was like, Are you gonna stop?
• 7:55
  Whatcha gonna cut from the list?
• 7:58
  So when you built this venture, which began of course for you back in 2002, which started, like you mentioned with the newsletter, and maybe you hadn't thought of it, but what did you hoped it would be and how have you actually built it to all of these things of what it is today with all of the different offerings, which is a lot.
• 8:17
  You know, it wasn't like I started it thinking I would have a TV show, which is weird because I was in TV and I'd done.
• 8:24
  Um, you know, when I worked in London, I did voiceovers.
• 8:28
  So I had done like a little on air stuff, but I was mostly behind the scenes.
• 8:33
  I just did it.
• 8:33
  I just did it.
• 8:35
  That's me.
• 8:35
  And that's, you know, my advice to a lot of people I mean, I don't know, just do it.
• 8:40
  Like I just sort of did it.
• 8:41
  I didn't have this, I wish I had because now the founders and I'm a founder, but you know, a founder is like such a word, you know, they have this exit plan, no exit plan.
• 8:52
  You know, they have like, we're gonna turn it into this or turn it into that, and.
• 8:57
  I just wanted to help people make their Italian dream come true.
• 9:00
  And for a long time that was travel, but now it's also moving to Italy, um, buying a house, you know, extended stays.
• 9:07
  It's, it's, we do a lot of content on, on all these topics.
• 9:14
  Yeah.
• 9:14
  I think that that happens to a lot of business owners that it starts as one thing and it just starts to like snowball in this weird way that you don't expect, and then all of a sudden you're hosting a TV show and you're like, how did I get here?
• 9:29
  Uh, uh, it's a happy trap, but it's a trap.
• 9:32
  Yeah.
• 9:32
  Yeah.
• 9:34
  That's fair.
• 9:34
  'cause the thing is, it's like I'm not married, uh, for 23 years.
• 9:39
  I, it is the biggest commitment, I mean, it was like monthly, 10 times a year, six times a year.
• 9:44
  Now we do like big quarterly issues.
• 9:46
  Like I have never missed an issue through all, all of life's trials and tribulations.
• 9:52
  It's, it's like having a child.
• 9:53
  It's, it's, it's, it's a big, big commitment.
• 9:57
  Well, Vogue says having a boyfriend is embarrassing.
• 10:00
  know.
• 10:00
  So, so you're, you're doing just fine with your business I think so.
• 10:06
  I have to read the article.
• 10:07
  I have, I've, I've seen the headlines.
• 10:10
  It's so fascinating though, this year, last year.
• 10:15
  Uh, it's really this moment and I would like to be married and, and so it's not that it's, but I do think of my ancestors.
• 10:24
  I do think of my great-grandmother, my grandmother who was there every day in my childhood who desperately wanted to go to college in the twenties and was very smart Mm-hmm.
• 10:34
  father wouldn't let her go.
• 10:36
  And we are one of the first generations to have choice choices.
• 10:41
  Yep.
• 10:42
  And I didn't, you know, I thought I was gonna have a more traditional life.
• 10:46
  I just, it just sort of didn't work out that way.
• 10:49
  It wasn't so much of a huge choice.
• 10:52
  But I've tried to embrace.
• 10:53
  It that I got very emotional, uh, with this old friend of mine.
• 10:57
  I was, I was like, I am my grandmother's dream.
• 11:00
  Yeah.
• 11:01
  not only to, I have a master's degree, uh, you know, the education she had wanted, but to be able to travel to make so many decisions for myself, um, it's, you know, it's, it's a gift.
• 11:18
  So you have to sort of look at whatever situation Yep.
• 11:21
  What the positives are of it.
• 11:24
  And so I really, um, try to make the most of it.
• 11:29
  And she did what she had to do so you could do what you're doing.
• 11:32
  So you are the product of everyone before you for sure.
• 11:37
  Yeah.
• 11:38
  Yeah.
• 11:38
  I love that.
• 11:39
  My grandmother always, when I was younger, told me like, make sure you have your own money.
• 11:43
  Like get an education.
• 11:45
  And, and of course when you're like 15, you don't realize like why she's telling you this.
• 11:51
  Yep.
• 11:52
  but yeah, I think that, that, that's really important.
• 11:55
  Um.
• 11:55
  say something for my grandfather, the one who really inspired this dream.
• 11:59
  He was born in 1902.
• 12:01
  He was my daycare.
• 12:02
  I had an amazing, amazing father.
• 12:04
  That grandfather of mine every day of my childhood said, you're gonna go to Princeton, said you're gonna go and do this.
• 12:11
  He, which was extraordinary for a man of his generation.
• 12:15
  Right.
• 12:15
  I.
• 12:15
  me as a girl or a boy or a, and I was the only grandchild they really saw.
• 12:21
  , They, they all, they had all granddaughters and, and I always do look back at him, , is just as much a sort of part of the equation because he would push me and he only had an eighth grade education, Mm-hmm.
• 12:36
  Yeah.
• 12:37
  Yeah.
• 12:37
  That's.
• 12:37
  to travel.
• 12:38
  They, they spent all their money, uh, you know, they saved and in their retirement, they traveled around the world.
• 12:43
  Oh, that's so awesome.
• 12:45
  Let's, uh, let's switch gears to Italy.
• 12:49
  Of course.
• 12:50
  That's why we are here.
• 12:51
  So what tips would you share with folks that are planning their first trip to Italy?
• 12:58
  Uh, I have not been there yet, and it is on our shortlist for 2026, so, Well, first you have to book Now.
• 13:07
  yes.
• 13:07
  a little Instagram reel about that because everybody's going.
• 13:11
  And everyone thinks that no one else is going in the month that they're going.
• 13:15
  So I've been hearing, yeah, it's like been hearing October's really booked up.
• 13:20
  I mean, October.
• 13:21
  So everyone thinks like, oh, don't go to Italy in August.
• 13:24
  This is like the last 20 years.
• 13:26
  So all Americans go in September and they think no one else is going.
• 13:29
  And that is the high hot, that's high season Mm-hmm.
• 13:32
  in many places.
• 13:33
  It's higher season than July.
• 13:35
  So the biggest tip is you have to book now or really start, you know, get those.
• 13:39
  If you're gonna use points, if you're gonna get air tickets, just start.
• 13:43
  Just book something because it's really booking up.
• 13:46
  The biggest challenge I think, when people are planning a trip, especially a first one, is they're trying to do too much.
• 13:53
  I always do not do less than three days somewhere, you know, everyone wants to go to Rome, Florence, Venice.
• 13:59
  They wanna go to the Amalfi Coast.
• 14:00
  The Amalfi Coast.
• 14:01
  I love it.
• 14:02
  It's overrun.
• 14:03
  It's, Yeah, I've heard that a nightmare.
• 14:06
  I, I, I feel like, am I supposed to say this?
• 14:08
  'cause it's dream of Italy, it's a nightmare sometimes.
• 14:11
  Like, like Positano and the, you want the Instagram photo?
• 14:15
  No, no, no, no.
• 14:17
  But if you're gonna do it, do it like October or May.
• 14:21
  But there's all these places and they're, they're not super close, and I think you have to really decide what your goals are.
• 14:28
  Maybe it's two of those three big cities, maybe it's, you really want that countryside experience, so you wanna do Tuscany with Florence.
• 14:37
  whole TV show and magazine are all about all 20 regions.
• 14:41
  There's 20 regions, there's amazing places to go.
• 14:44
  Um, Torino, where the Olympics were 20 years ago, it has some of the best food in Italy, has the best Egyptian museum outside of.
• 14:54
  of, of Egypt, , uh, the wine, the chocolate, the Shroud of Turin.
• 14:58
  So there's, there's smaller cities that you can consider.
• 15:04
  so I think it's the planning, you know, booking, uh, giving yourself enough time.
• 15:09
  'cause also crazy amazing things happen in Italy.
• 15:12
  I mean, they just happened to me on this trip.
• 15:14
  If you leave time.
• 15:16
  Like if you're just sitting in the piazza, you just never know what's gonna happen and who you're gonna meet or what, you know, what vineyard you might come across or where you're gonna go shopping.
• 15:25
  So that's important.
• 15:26
  I think tour guides, if you can afford them, and there's a lot of affordable options for group tours.
• 15:33
  Like, you don't wanna go to the Vatican without the context of it.
• 15:36
  You don't wanna go to the Roman forum or Coliseum.
• 15:39
  Also, you don't wanna assume you can get tickets to all these.
• 15:41
  It's getting harder and harder.
• 15:43
  It is not like you can show up like 20 years ago you could just show up and go and you can't anymore.
• 15:48
  You really have to plan ahead.
• 15:50
  And then I always say, do a cooking class.
• 15:53
  At least one.
• 15:54
  I mean, the, the history of Italy is told through food and the food is different every three miles.
• 16:01
  And so you learn a lot of the history of that particular region or city through the food you get to meet a local.
• 16:08
  Um, I could go on and on.
• 16:11
  Yeah, I think those are all really great tips and I think that, uh, Meggan and I talk a lot about not over planning trips, and I think it would be very easy to do in Italy because there is so much to do and to see and to eat.
• 16:27
  So I think it's good advice to focus on like one area or a couple of different cities instead of like trying to see four or five.
• 16:37
  Yeah.
• 16:38
  yes.
• 16:38
  Yeah.
• 16:39
  Now we've already referenced this Italy set to host the Winter Olympics in 2026.
• 16:44
  How do you expect this will affect tourism in the broader scope of 2026, especially northern Italy, and how can visitors prepare to have like an amazing, like authentic Italian experience, but during this busy time, do you have any tips about that?
• 16:59
  my gosh.
• 16:59
  I just, I am obsessed with the Olympics.
• 17:01
  I went 20 years ago.
• 17:02
  It was one of the greatest events of my life.
• 17:04
  Um, so I'm going back, so Awesome.
• 17:06
  February and I just went, I just got back from Italy a few days ago and I went to Milano, Cortina, the two main, um, town, cities that are hosting, it's the most spread out or geographically spread out olympics in history.
• 17:21
  It's 8,500 square miles of Northern Italy, so you're going to see like four regions and provinces of Italy on tv.
• 17:30
  Um, the Dolomites, I wish I could say-- it's funny.
• 17:33
  I was talking to another friend and I was kind of saying, uh, they're not, not visited.
• 17:39
  Like they're starting to get more and more visited.
• 17:42
  And for instance, I was in Cortina, um, which was this very, they had the 1956 Olympics.
• 17:49
  Beautiful, beautiful town.
• 17:51
  But, Aman Hotels and Mandarin Oriental in the next few years are coming in and I almost wanna say go now before, you know, once these big brands come in.
• 18:04
  But there's so much history, like World War I, they're the German Austrian influences sometimes up in parts of that area, especially Bolzano.
• 18:13
  It doesn't feel like it's Italy.
• 18:15
  It feels like it's you.
• 18:16
  Like, wait a second.
• 18:17
  And like when it was like time to check out when I went, a different trip and it was like 1159 and they're knocking on the door 'cause it was like 12:00 PM I'm like, this is so not Italian.
• 18:28
  Who, you know, they don't Yeah.
• 18:30
  They were like very precise.
• 18:32
  So I think, I think it will inspire a lot of people to plan a trip either the winter or the summer.
• 18:39
  These places are beautiful in the summer.
• 18:41
  Sure.
• 18:42
  there is enough for everyone.
• 18:44
  It's a huge, it's a huge area.
• 18:47
  Milan is kind of undergoing everyone acts like, oh, that's the city.
• 18:50
  You don't really.
• 18:52
  know, it's not, uh, it's sort of the fourth in line when people want to visit, but it's a really cool international city, fashion design.
• 19:01
  So much going on architecture, great museums.
• 19:06
  Then the closing ceremonies are in a beautiful city called Verona, they're going to be in the largest open air amphitheater in the world.
• 19:16
  And many years ago, on one of those trips with my mom, they have a very famous opera series where you're sitting outside under the stars.
• 19:22
  And I was told, because I asked the tour guide, they still, everyone holds a candle.
• 19:27
  This Oh wow.
• 19:28
  happen in the United States, but you're like totally by candlelight watching in the opera.
• 19:33
  So I think that, um, I'm hoping it will give, travelers some new choices besides Florence, Venice, Rome.
• 19:43
  Yeah.
• 19:43
  Yeah, I love that.
• 19:44
  So we have friends that, uh, live in, uh, Torino.
• 19:48
  So that, that's why it's on our shortlist for 2026.
• 19:53
  great city.
• 19:55
  Yeah.
• 19:55
  it's a really great city.
• 19:57
  Yeah.
• 19:57
  Yeah, we, um, we really wanna get there and visit, We'll book it eventually, I'm sure.
• 20:04
  We're just, is if you go out to Piedmont, which is like the best wine, and I mean Tuscany, you don't get mad at me saying that, but, um, I did something for the show 10 years, many years ago, and then I did it 10 years ago.
• 20:16
  Was truffle hunting with dogs.
• 20:18
  done it a oh.
• 20:19
  times.
• 20:19
  I love dogs like probably more than Italy, like it's up there Wow.
• 20:23
  so I, the truffle hunting with the dogs is just off, off the rails.
• 20:27
  Cool.
• 20:29
  Yeah.
• 20:29
  Awesome.
• 20:31
  Uh, so is there any other reason why people should make Italy a destination in 2026?
• 20:38
  Is there any other exciting things going on there that you know of?
• 20:41
  . There's, oh, I mean there's always, each year there are tons of special events or anniversaries.
• 20:46
  There's always an Italian capital of culture.
• 20:49
  And this year in 2026, it's L'Aquila, which is in Abruzzo.
• 20:53
  Abruzzo is a region in, in Central Italy.
• 20:56
  My ancestors are not from there yet.
• 20:58
  I have done two episodes on Abruzzo somehow.
• 21:01
  I really love it.
• 21:02
  Um, and the second episode I did, it was Americans Moving to a Abruzzo, which I'm, and I've gotten emails.
• 21:08
  I'm responsible for multiple people buying their homes, um, in Abruzzo, and that's a beautiful, beautiful, um, Gran Sasso National Park, and I live when I'm in the US in Colorado, and I'm about to say that Grand Sasso is even more beautiful than, than Colorado.
• 21:27
  I will be our little secret.
• 21:29
  some beauty there in Abruzzo.
• 21:31
  And it's, it's a region where you can be in a town and you're 20 minutes from the sea and 20 minutes from the mountains.
• 21:37
  Hmm.
• 21:37
  Yeah.
• 21:38
  The one couple that bought the house that I, they bought like a newer house, which is amazing.
• 21:42
  They could see the sea from their mountain, you know, their mountain perch in this house.
• 21:48
  And you know, you have, so you have access to so much.
• 21:52
  Hmm.
• 21:53
  terrible.
• 21:54
  Really.
• 21:55
  Um, it's a shame.
• 21:57
  sorry for myself.
• 21:58
  I'm like, oh, Well, there's.
• 22:02
  I there like five days.
• 22:04
  Y you are fine Kathy.
• 22:06
  You're fine.
• 22:07
  Um, so there's no doubt obviously that Italy is a popular tourist destination.
• 22:11
  What do you think are some of the hidden gems of Italy?
• 22:13
  So places that most tourists don't venture to, um, such as spa towns or spots that invite even maybe like a bit of slow travel so people can actually just slow down and enjoy themselves.
• 22:25
  I love the spa towns.
• 22:27
  Um, I don't know.
• 22:29
  So one of my favorite, I always talk about it though, but my, one of my favorite places on earth is Saturnia, which is in the western part of Tuscany.
• 22:36
  Along the coast.
• 22:38
  It's in the Maremma.
• 22:39
  And Saturnia has healing hot springs that I think I've tried a lot of hot springs and I think they're the most healing.
• 22:46
  I've been going for about 25 years and I've gone a few times when I've had some health issues and just sat myself in that water and it's amazing.
• 22:54
  So, so Italy definitely has this culture.
• 22:57
  It's very volcanic and thermal.
• 22:59
  Geothermal, so there's hot springs everywhere.
• 23:02
  Um, they're not necessarily unknown, but I also went to the hot springs in Bagno Vignoni, which is in the Val d'Orcia, which I think it's a UNESCO World Heritage site.
• 23:12
  But it's that part of Tuscany that you see on postcards, that you see in movies, that you see in commercials, that they allow, like no building of anything new.
• 23:21
  It's the Tuscany that you imagine.
• 23:24
  this in Saturnia when I've driven there like from Florence or Rome on those roads, I'm like, this is like an Audi commercial or a Mercedes commercial or, um, so definitely at the thermal hot springs, there's also this whole culture of you know, doctors actually write prescriptions for Italians.
• 23:43
  There's a number of hot springs like in the north, um, Merano, um, in the South and Campania.
• 23:50
  So that's an interesting, uh, angle.
• 23:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:56
  I went, I've been many years ago, but I went to a region called Le Marche in the Central Northern, and I, uh, I hate to even say this, but it's the, it's where everyone's gonna start buying houses in the next couple of years.
• 24:09
  It's like Tuscany was 25 years ago.
• 24:12
  And you walk around and you don't really see any Americans in these little towns.
• 24:17
  I mean, you do occasionally.
• 24:18
  It's still really affordable, but absolutely beautiful, stunning.
• 24:24
  Um, and then part of Le Marche is on the sea.
• 24:27
  Uh, there's just.
• 24:28
  It's, I mean, and this is just one region.
• 24:30
  I love the south.
• 24:32
  Um, my family's from Campania Irpinia that area, which is known for wines, green Verdant Mountains.
• 24:39
  Um, I interviewed Francis Ford Coppola.
• 24:40
  He has a hotel in Basilicata, which is in the, also in the South.
• 24:44
  Puglia faces Greece.
• 24:46
  Uh, uh, people are discovering it, but it's just another place.
• 24:51
  Sicily.
• 24:51
  Sicily is gonna be the hottest place in the next, it's, I went to this conference and the guy on stage, he's like a billionaire travel investor.
• 24:59
  He said, you know, Sicily is it for the next, you know, the next 10 years.
• 25:03
  I think he's right.
• 25:04
  It's, it's very, it's more affordable.
• 25:08
  Like many parts of Italy, everyone invaded.
• 25:10
  So there's all layers of culture and history.
• 25:14
  So Sicily, like its own, we haven't even done it on a TV show yet because I'm like, oh my God, it needs like three episodes.
• 25:21
  It needs its own thing.
• 25:22
  Sardinia I'm glad I went 20 years ago.
• 25:27
  There's now gonna be a nonstop from New York to Sardinia Oh wow.
• 25:31
  Sardinia looks like Arizona.
• 25:33
  On the Mediterranean.
• 25:33
  It's very dry.
• 25:34
  It's like very cactus Rocks dry, and then the beautiful turquoise sea.
• 25:39
  Um, so there's a lot.
• 25:41
  You know, there was a statistic I have to check.
• 25:44
  It's either 70% of people go to 1% of Italy, or 90% go to like 4% of Italy.
• 25:51
  Yeah.
• 25:52
  and it is getting pretty, you know, when I was in Rome, when I was in Florence, I think I really see it in Florence.
• 25:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:00
  It's changed.
• 26:01
  It's pretty cra It's just a small city.
• 26:04
  Yeah, there's so many places like that in the world now.
• 26:06
  I say go in January, I say Right.
• 26:10
  Agreed.
• 26:11
  And oh, I love the winter in Italy and there's almost no off season now.
• 26:14
  I mean, you can get great airfares.
• 26:17
  You're not gonna be, it's not gonna be 105 degrees.
• 26:20
  Yeah.
• 26:22
  And that heat can be a real thing in the summer, and it's even a travel trend.
• 26:27
  I don't know.
• 26:28
  You know, in your, in your research and your Mm-hmm.
• 26:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:49
  it's like thousands of more years.
• 26:52
  It's like, oh, they're, they're very, it's very emotional Yeah, my husband and I were in Innsbrook a few years ago and we snuck into Northern Italy for lunch.
• 27:01
  Um, and it was should.
• 27:03
  one should, um, it was his idea.
• 27:06
  I will give him all the credit.
• 27:07
  And it was, uh, we, we still don't know if it was the best lasagna we had in our life because we were in Italy, or if it just was like, you know, really good lasagna, but I'm gonna go with the fact that we were in Italy.
• 27:18
  So of course it was.
• 27:20
  That's my, I only had lunch in Italy, Kathy, but I'll get there.
• 27:23
  That's okay.
• 27:24
  You have to start somewhere.
• 27:26
  You do the very, very, very first time, I don't talk about it as the first time, but the true first time I was backpacking with this friend of mine before I did an internship in Paris for the summer and we were in Nice.
• 27:38
  And we took the train over to Italy for like four hours for the evening, right.
• 27:43
  we went to Santa Margherita Ligure in the nineties.
• 27:47
  And I thought I was an Italian in an Italian movie.
• 27:51
  It was just every, it, it, it was everything.
• 27:55
  It Everything really that just, and then the next summer is when I went back with my mom to this Yeah.
• 28:01
  and, um, so you do have to start somewhere.
• 28:04
  You do.
• 28:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:06
  Are there any spots in Italy that you haven't visited yet that are still on your list?
• 28:12
  I mean, there are Yeah.
• 28:14
  um, I haven't done much of Friuli which is up, up towards Slovenia and that area.
• 28:20
  They all kind of swapped.
• 28:22
  I've been to Trieste, which is the capital, but they all like.
• 28:27
  it it changed hands a lot up there.
• 28:31
  Um, I have, I've been to Calabria, but I haven't done, I love the south.
• 28:35
  I love the south.
• 28:36
  I haven't done a lot of Calabria, so if, if we talked about sort of my wish, well, for the TV show, I wanna go back.
• 28:42
  I've done a lot of Sardinia.
• 28:44
  Sardinia, I'd like to do Sardinia Calabria.
• 28:47
  You know, there's just, I've been to every region, but there's honestly, you could spend a lifetime in each region.
• 28:55
  Right, Yes.
• 28:55
  Right.
• 28:57
  Yeah.
• 28:57
  So, uh, if our listeners are intrigued, you've talked about inspiring people to buy a house in Italy, so do you have any like advice for people who may want to also buy a house in Italy?
• 29:13
  Let's see.
• 29:14
  I have not done it, but that's Okay.
• 29:16
  decide, you know, I, I can't, you know, I would just have five of them or something.
• 29:22
  Yeah.
• 29:22
  Um, I don't know.
• 29:24
  You know, my friend, I became, I filmed an episode with Frances Mayes who wrote Under the Tuscan Sun, and she's become a dear friend of mine.
• 29:31
  of course, her whole story is about renovating and she loves renovating, but I dunno if it's, if it's for everybody.
• 29:39
  So, yeah, so I would be cautious with that, that, you know, there's also these one Euro houses, which were amazing and, uh, we, we filmed, Yep.
• 29:49
  that does this in Abruzzo, but your one Euro house is really gonna cost about 40 or 50,000.
• 29:56
  Yeah.
• 29:56
  but it's an amazing opportunity to put your mark on it.
• 30:01
  So I caution people with the renovation because I think you really need to be there.
• 30:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:08
  as you would anywhere.
• 30:09
  Anywhere.
• 30:11
  And I think there's sort of a gold rush right now.
• 30:14
  A lot this year, a lot of people are buying, houses are renovating, um, prices are going up.
• 30:21
  you can still get amazing deals.
• 30:22
  You can still get an apartment or a house for 30 or $40,000 in Wow.
• 30:28
  places.
• 30:29
  you have to think about what it's like in the winter.
• 30:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:33
  Because a lot, if you buy one of these stone houses, it's cold, Sure.
• 30:38
  It also is gonna cost, electricity is really expensive.
• 30:41
  It's gonna cost a lot, um, to heat it.
• 30:45
  There's a lot of laws like people wanna make, you know, their, their house an Airbnb.
• 30:50
  But you have to think about taxes.
• 30:52
  I mean, I'm just sharing some of the things to think about, but why not?
• 30:58
  I mean, especially if you can buy something and it's not.
• 31:01
  If it's 30 or 40,000, it's, you know, you're not gonna, if it goes astray, it's not going to bankrupt you forever.
• 31:09
  It, it can be really exciting and, but you really wanna try to become part of the town, part of the culture, speak the language, really try to integrate.
• 31:20
  And I always recommend using a real, real estate licensed real estate agent.
• 31:24
  There's a lot of, and some of them are very good.
• 31:26
  There's property finders.
• 31:28
  They're, some of them are very good, some of them are, you know, there's a lot of, like if someone's bought one house, like they're now an expert on buying houses in All right.
• 31:37
  Right.
• 31:37
  So I really caution, um, I wrote a book, a companion book to the PBS special I did about moving to Italy and we wrote 80 pages on how to move and real estate and cost of living and things like that.
• 31:50
  But that still even changes every year.
• 31:54
  Yep.
• 31:55
  so I think you have to do your homework.
• 31:58
  I think I would not buy a place unless I'd really spend time in that town.
• 32:04
  And you know, you can go for 90 days without needing a visa.
• 32:09
  The best thing to do is go rent a place for a month Yeah.
• 32:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:13
  and see if you really like it.
• 32:15
  'cause places are different in the different seasons.
• 32:19
  Right.
• 32:19
  Mm. That's a really good point that just because you like it in one season, you might not look living there.
• 32:25
  I'm also like, I take risks.
• 32:27
  I do crazy things.
• 32:28
  So, you know, you buy it good for you, Yeah.
• 32:31
  you have to live, you know, there's a balance.
• 32:34
  Yeah.
• 32:35
  a balance of the dream, um, and being realistic.
• 32:39
  And also there's not this huge, although now I feel like there's a lot of movement, but Italians don't move a lot.
• 32:47
  There's not a huge resale.
• 32:49
  Right.
• 32:50
  So if you're committing, you're committed for a while, you may be committed for a while, so you have Right.
• 32:55
  about these things.
• 32:56
  And then Yeah.
• 32:57
  live there more than 90, out of every 180 days, you're gonna need a visa or citizenship, and you're gonna be paying extremely high taxes to live in Italy.
• 33:08
  Hmm.
• 33:08
  Which I'm probably gonna do because I think the trade off is Worth it.
• 33:12
  But you'll, most people are shocked Yeah.
• 33:16
  They're Let's.
• 33:18
  many people I know spend half the year, you know, they go back, they do 90 days in, 90 days out.
• 33:23
  90 Yeah, the old Schengen zone.
• 33:25
  That's true.
• 33:26
  That's a good, that's a really good point.
• 33:28
  That's all really good advice and I think a lot of food for thought, and I think it's even like places here in Nova Scotia that are amazing in the summer, but I wouldn't wanna go there in the winter.
• 33:37
  So I think those kinds of things, no matter where it is in the world that you really do need to consider.
• 33:42
  Yeah.
• 33:42
  I think you have to sort of balance it out, but then you have to remember, you know, you only live well, I think you live more than once, but that's a whole other story.
• 33:49
  I believe in Ooh, so have you back, Kathy, I could talk about that for like hours, but I always say like, oh, you live, well, you know when I say, oh, you only live once.
• 33:59
  I'm like, no, I think you live more than Yeah, I think.
• 34:01
  I think it's more, around, yeah, yeah, to do.
• 34:05
  yeah.
• 34:06
  I do wanna say, as the owner of an old house, my house is Canada old, not Italy old, but I think it still counts.
• 34:14
  Italy old No.
• 34:16
  And as someone who's five years into renovations of an old house, it is not for everyone and it is tough to live through, like to be completely honest, it necessarily.
• 34:28
  Like if you're trying to go to Italy, to enjoy Italy, and every day you're working on the house, you have to really think about it because it's, it's more romanticized than.
• 34:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:40
  It's A lot of things are.
• 34:43
  you know, a lot of them wanna be in paid in cash.
• 34:45
  People are people and they're gonna rip you off.
• 34:47
  Some of them are great, some of them aren't.
• 34:49
  You know, that's just Yep.
• 34:51
  So, um, yeah.
• 34:54
  Yeah, no, that's really a good point.
• 34:57
  I wanna talk because of course we have a travel podcast because we love to travel and we like to talk about our experiences, whether they're our own or talk with guests like yourself.
• 35:07
  But we really feel like it can impact a person on so many levels.
• 35:11
  When you get out into the world and you experience different food and cultures and challenges.
• 35:17
  For you, why do you feel travel changes people or what impact do you feel it can have on a person?
• 35:25
  my God.
• 35:25
  I did a whole special, which people can find on YouTube.
• 35:28
  It's called Dream of Italy, travel, transform, and Thrive.
• 35:32
  And I always say like, let Italy change you.
• 35:35
  Let Italy transform you, let Italy heal.
• 35:37
  I really believe Italy is very healing.
• 35:39
  , I think there's something particular, I think travel, it's just, it just seeing, I went to Japan for the first time year, so it was like, I've been to Italy like 70 times and I needed to different.
• 35:53
  And Japan is really different.
• 35:55
  Yes.
• 35:56
  so I think it just takes you out of your comfort zone and it makes you think, and you know, they're so calm and respectful.
• 36:03
  And I was like, maybe I need something calmer in my life.
• 36:07
  I don't know.
• 36:07
  Um, and I loved being on the sea.
• 36:09
  I did a cruise.
• 36:10
  And I just loved it.
• 36:12
  Just reinforced for me.
• 36:14
  Um, I should say, I went with Japan and America.
• 36:16
  They do an amazing job.
• 36:17
  And we weren't really here to talk about Japan, but they do cruises and it's all locally Japanese run, but you're on a Viking ship, so it's like, um, and we went to towns that foreigners don't really go to, you know, like 10 stops on this cruise.
• 36:33
  Um, but it made me think.
• 36:35
  It, it, it gave me sort of this totally new experience.
• 36:38
  'cause I've been always going to Italy I think it just, it activates certain parts of the brain that we, we, we forget about in our everyday lives.
• 36:51
  You know, whether it's beauty or food or, um, community and to see how other people live and to, to sort of decide, okay, I wanna live more like that.
• 37:04
  Or not more like that.
• 37:06
  And I think Italy particularly is sort of a mirror.
• 37:09
  Um, or really, uh, my friend Frances Mayes says Women in particular go to Italy on a quest often.
• 37:17
  And I've noticed Italy has saved me many times in my life that when things, horrible things have happened in my life and I sort of went to Italy or you know, went to Italy to celebrate other things.
• 37:29
  It's, it's, um, I don't know.
• 37:32
  It's, so, it's actually hard to describe.
• 37:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:35
  Yeah, I think I've had those experiences too, where it just feels like fulfilling and like I, there's not really a word for it.
• 37:43
  Like you said, that's like magic in a way Well, that you can't really describe.
• 37:47
  about past lives, but I honestly think sometimes you arrive in a place and you feel like you've been there before.
• 37:55
  And I don't know if that's a past life or just sort of triggers something.
• 38:00
  You know, I know people who are obsessed with Italy, who've never been to Italy, who, who, um, and I wrote about this.
• 38:06
  I also do a substack called Kathy McCabe Dreams more on like dreams and personal things.
• 38:12
  I wrote about how there are people you feel called to certain places in the world and, and sometimes I think it's really related to our soul.
• 38:22
  I Yeah.
• 38:23
  I love that too.
• 38:24
  Yeah.
• 38:24
  So what can we expect next from you?
• 38:28
  What are you working on right now that you can share with us?
• 38:31
  You don't know?
• 38:33
  No, I mean, we're work, I'm working on, um, more tv.
• 38:37
  Yeah.
• 38:38
  that's always a process.
• 38:40
  , I have been working on this memoir for years.
• 38:44
  That's really the story of going back to my ancestral hometown and all these things happened because of it.
• 38:50
  There's this Madonna in the town that my, my, my great-grandfather had a miracle.
• 38:55
  My mother had a, had a miracle.
• 38:58
  Um, I really have wanted to write this super personal story.
• 39:02
  Of what Italy means to me, and I've been working on it, and I have to make it sort of a much more of a priority because it's really, um, important to me and I think,, more, more content on how, uh, how travel and Italy can transform our lives.
• 39:21
  Amazing.
• 39:22
  Awesome.
• 39:22
  So where can our listeners find you online so they can see everything that you are up to?
• 39:28
  think almost everything is dream of Italy.
• 39:31
  You can, uh, you Awesome.
• 39:32
  all the episodes of the show, um, on YouTube at Dream of Italy.
• 39:36
  It's still on PBS, it's still airing the first season, 10 and a half years later is still Oh wow.
• 39:43
  The seasons and all the specials.
• 39:45
  So like Instagram, TikTok, dream of Italy, if you're interested in dream of Europe, that's like dream of Europe.
• 39:51
  TV on, um, Instagram.
• 39:54
  Also, I think on YouTube and for that season series we went to London, Lake Annecy in France, which was, I, I studied French there when I was 18.
• 40:04
  Malta, two episodes in Greece.
• 40:08
  And I say London.
• 40:10
  London, yeah.
• 40:12
  London.
• 40:12
  Malta.
• 40:13
  Oh, Albania.
• 40:14
  I forget where we even went.
• 40:16
  Albania was incredible.
• 40:18
  Oh, um, place to go.
• 40:20
  She, it's uh, yeah, go now because in five years it's gonna be like Croatia or yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:26
  Time is now.
• 40:27
  Yeah.
• 40:27
  Definitely.
• 40:28
  I met who helped me with my luggage, um, in the Chicago airport, 'cause I stopped over.
• 40:34
  He and I, he's Bulgarian and I was like, I.
• 40:36
  I've heard.
• 40:37
  That's like the really, the next, next place, like right now, like Albania is almost Yes.
• 40:44
  not passe, but I'm saying like, I was just hearing about that.
• 40:48
  So everyone's looking for the new It Yeah.
• 40:52
  it place.
• 40:53
  Yeah, definitely.
• 40:54
  Well, thank you so much for joining us, Kathy.
• 40:57
  Um, in the show notes, you'll find links to Kathy's website and more information on her show and where you can find her online.
• 41:05
  As for us, you can find us on our website, travel mug podcast.com, or our Facebook or Instagram at Travel Mug podcast.
• 41:12
  You can support the show through buying us a coffee.
• 41:15
  Leaving us a review or sharing the show with a travel loving pal.
• 41:18
  And until next time, uh, we'll chat with you soon and thanks again, Kathy.