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Wicked Words: Maria DiLorenzo: Confessions of the Green River Killer · Spooky Season Podcasts 🎃

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: My goal at that point became, well, let me just
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: keep him talking for as long as possible. Because if
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: I keep him talking, then there's always the chance that
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: he could reveal something to me.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co-host of the podcast
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Buried Bones on Exactly Right. And throughout my career, research
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: for my many audio and book projects has taken me
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down with
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. When crime journalist Maria DeLorenzo
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: began writing to Gary Ridgway, she had no idea where
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: it would go. He began calling her hundreds of times.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Their conversations were supposed to lead to big revelations, to
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: clues about women who might have been the victims of
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: the Green River Killer. But Ridgeway played games, and DeLorenzo
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: soon felt very uncomfortable. She tells me about her book,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Confessions of the Green River Killer. So tell me about
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: the blog, because this is sort of where it started, right?
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: You interview, is it serial killers only or any kind
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: of killer?
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Any kind of killer. I began to focus on serial
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: killers because I find them extremely interesting, just their psychology
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: and their profiles. But it was really for anyone incarcerated
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: for murder. Okay.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: And what was your feeling? I mean, what do you
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: want to know when you're interviewing these people?
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Initially, I was interested in their psychology. I was interested
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: in their behavior, looking at their profile overall, and just
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: trying to see if I could obtain any information from
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: them that would kind of give a clear picture of
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: who they are and just their overall psychology and behavior.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Do you have an idea of who you want to
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: talk to and then reach out to them through prison mail,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: or how does it work?
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I had a long list of people who I
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: was interested in speaking with. And then I just sent
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: out a ton of letters. And it was really whoever responded.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Give me some examples of who are the folks that
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: you've talked to besides Gary Ridgway.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Okay, so BTK, Dennis Rader, Keith Jesperson, the Happy Face Killer,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Ty Kaczynski, Sean Great. I mean, there is a long list.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: And is it... A situation where, you know, why do
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: you think they want to talk to you? Is it
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: because they don't get to talk to other people? I
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: can't imagine that they don't get a lot of media requests, maybe.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Maybe they don't.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: It depends, I think, on how, I guess, high profile
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: the person is.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I know a lot of.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Them do get a ton of mail, but they could
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: be quite selective at times. And I think it was
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: just my willingness to, to give them the freedom to
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: talk about what they wanted. I had told them going
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: into the correspondence that if they decided to speak to
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: me on Beyond the Crime, which is the name of
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: my website, that I would allow them the opportunity to
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: speak to me about whatever they wanted. So I think
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: giving them that sense of control, which... That's, you know,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: they all love control. They all love power. So I
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: think giving them the opportunity to speak to me about
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: any topic, that was what was most appealing. And then
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: I ended up getting a lot of responses.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: When you were thinking about Gary Ridgway, you know, he is,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: so it's 49 as that was confirmed, right? But suspected
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: of many, many more. Is that right? Okay. So when
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: you were thinking of Gary Ridgway, You know, and you thought, okay,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: there might be other cases. There are probably other cases.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: And maybe if, you know, I talk to him long
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: enough and we correspond long enough and he trusts me
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: that he can give me some information. Yeah. Did that
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: occur to you with any of the other folks, BTK
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: or any of those folks? Or was this really kind
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: of a new thing with Gary when you started talking
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: with him?
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Well, with Gary, that was always in the background. Because again,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: he was convicted for 49. He had confessed, though, to 71.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: And that was public knowledge that he had done that.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: So that was in the back of my mind when
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I reached out to him, that maybe I would be
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: able to retrieve information from him. And initially... When he
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: reached out to me, our very first phone call, that
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: is what he was focusing on. He wanted my help.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: He wanted my help to try to solve these cases,
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  Speaker 2: to help him remember, to collect information. Our very first
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: phone call, he kept telling me, you know, there's Jane
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Doe's out there. And yeah, so in the beginning of
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: my correspondence with him, that was the main focus, even
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: for him. And then it kind of went in a
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: lot of different directions. as the communication continued. But initially,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: those first, I would say, three months, maybe four months,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: we focused a lot on talking about unsolved cases.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: So of the 22 that, you know, he says, I did,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: but they can't connect him. Why is it that they
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: can't connect him? They can't find the bodies or what
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: is it?
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: That's a big part of it. The fact that Well,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: some of his victims maybe had never been reported missing.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: So that's one possibility. And then if women were reported
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: missing and their remains were never found, that makes it
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: very difficult to piece it together. But in my conversations
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: with him, he even told me the number could be higher.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: So he told police 71 and then he told me
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: it could be 81 to 92. So I'm not sure
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: if He even knows an exact number. It's really hard
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: to say.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Did you get a sense for how that is even possible?
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: How can you, and is it all cases where he,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: that was manual strangulation? How can you strangle someone and
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: not remember, you know, where you put that person, what
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: that person looked like or anything like that? It just
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: is like, I'm incredulous to that. But at the same time,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't understand that mindset already.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: It's hard to wrap your mind around it for sure.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think because he was active for so long,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: so 1982 to 2001, I mean, that's what's on record,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: but he alluded to me that he could have been
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: responsible for murders that happened in the 70s. I mean,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: he did kind of suggest that in a very vague way,
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: which I think it's probably possible that he could be responsible.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: for other murders. So I think it's, you know, the
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: fact he was active for so long and he was
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: targeting a group of women who were marginalized and, you know,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: he even told me that. He said, you know, this
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: is why I targeted these women because he knew that
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: most of the time they wouldn't be reported missing and
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: he felt he can get away with it, which he did.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: And he felt no one really cared about them. which
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: led me to, you know, really think about were his crimes,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: were these murders because of his hatred for sex workers
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: or was it a hatred for all women? And I
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: concluded after my correspondence with him, it was a hatred
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: for all women. I think he was just targeting this
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  Speaker 2: group because he, again, he knew he can get away
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: with it.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that's a good segue into the next
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: piece that I want to talk about. You know, the
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: major things that we want to talk about are I mean,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: you start your conversation with him. I know it kind
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: of takes a left turn. But also, you know, you
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: become interested in two cases that you might be able
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: to get some information on. And I want to hear
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: about those women in those cases and everything. But I
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: guess let's start with, will you give me a brief
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: overview of Gary Ridgway, where he came from, what he
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: was like? I know, you know, there was sort of
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: violence from actually childhood, teenage years. But, you know, tell
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: me about what his setup is. What's his profile?
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, he grew up in a traditional, what would
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: be considered a traditional child home, right? So both his
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: parents were in the home. He had an older brother.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: He had a younger brother. So he was the middle child.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: And growing up, he was, I guess you could say,
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: belittled a lot by specifically his mother due to his dyslexia.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: So he really struggled in school his entire life. And
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: he was left back twice. And that led to a
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: lot of frustration on his mother's end. Just, you know, like,
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  Speaker 2: why can't you be more like your brother? Why can't
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: you read? Why can't you retain information? So from a
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  Speaker 2: very young age, he felt, I think, like almost like
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: an outcast in a sense. And he would feel like
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  Speaker 2: He didn't even really belong in this family. He felt
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: so isolated and not just from his family, also from
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  Speaker 2: his peers in school. He always felt like, you know,
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  Speaker 2: he was just trying to hide his, his, his dyslexia.
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  Speaker 2: And that created a lot of feelings of, I think,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: just not feeling good enough, not measuring up, low self-esteem
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: in that sense, like he wasn't smart enough, right? So
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: stuff like that from very early on. And then he would,
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was documented, he would set fires and
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: then he killed the family cat when he was about
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  Speaker 2: 10 years old, which he described that was a way
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: for him to feel like he was in control of something.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: So this goes back to, again, like what he was
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: experiencing in school with his dyslexia, not feeling like he
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: could measure up. He felt he had no control over
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: that situation. So that was his explanation of it. So
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: when he killed the family cat, that was a way
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: for him to control something and get his anger out.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: And then later on, he stabbed a little boy just
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: because he wanted to know what it felt like. to
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: kill someone, even though he didn't kill that kid. He
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: ended up surviving. But yeah, so there were a lot
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: of just feelings. And then he was also a bedwetter
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: too on top of it. And then the way his
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: mother would berate him for that. So there were a
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: lot of things happening in his home that I think
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: were catalysts for who he became later on. Okay.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: And so he goes on and he gets a job somewhere.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: What does he end up doing?
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: He ends up painting trucks for Kenworth. And he got
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: that job straight out of high school. And he also
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: joined the Navy. So he was in the Navy for,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: I think it was two years. And then he ended
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: up having this job when he got out of the Navy.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Did he talk much about when he was younger, his
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: relationship with his mom? Did you press him on any
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: of that kind of stuff?
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Not too much. We didn't get too much into that.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: The way he made it seem, though, was he had
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: a very normal upbringing in a way. Like anytime he
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: would talk about his parents, it was always, you know,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: he would speak highly of them. So I didn't get
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: the sense that he had any sort of resentment towards them.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Like he would tell me stories of growing up and,
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: you know, little details about his parents. But I didn't
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: pick up on any real anger towards them or resentment
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: or anything like that. But I know in his interviews
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: with police and the FBI profiler who interviewed him way
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: back when in 2003, It did come up, and, you know,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: so I think back then, though, I think growing up
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: in the 50s and 60s, it's very different compared to
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: today in how we look at certain things. So I
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: think the way his dyslexia was treated back then, what, like,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: he might have perceived as normal, today would be maybe
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: described as abuse.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: So what are his relationships like with women today? Like,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: does he have normal relationships? Does he get married, have kids?
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: He was married three times. So early on when he
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: was in high school, from what I understand from just
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: speaking with him and going through thousands of pages of
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: transcripts and just piecing it all together, he had no
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: problem attracting women. He always had a girlfriend when he
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: was a teenager. Girls liked him. He was going to
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: dances with them and whatnot. So that wasn't really the
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: issue that, oh, he couldn't get a girlfriend or anything.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: And his first wife, he met when he was about
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: 16 years old. They were working together and ended up being,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: it was almost like high school sweethearts, like that sort
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: of situation. And they got married very young. He was
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: about 20 years old, straight out of high school. They
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: got married and he got deployed. He was sent to
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: the Philippines and then Vietnam. He was sent all over
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: the place, but they had gotten married. And in my
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: conversations with him, He really focused on that marriage and
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: the way that it ended. And his words, he said,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: that is when all hell broke loose in his life,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: when he returned from the Navy and she didn't want
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: to be with him anymore. And she had met somebody else.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: She had gotten involved with somebody else. And he couldn't
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: deal with that rejection. And that's when I think His
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: hatred for women, I think it was always there. I mean,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: there were incidents that he told me about, too, before
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: that when he was a teenager where things that would
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: be considered rape. not forcing sex per se, but touching
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: and stuff like that where a girl was telling him
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: to stop and he didn't. So he admitted that to
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: me and he even said that was probably a time
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: when he should have been arrested. And he's like, maybe
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't have gone on to become a serial killer.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: And we got into these discussions about what's really considered
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: rape and what's You know, what is consent? And he
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: would ask me a lot of questions about my opinion
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: on these things. But I digress. But yeah, I mean,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: his relationship, his first marriage, it didn't end on a
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: good note. That's for sure. She left him and it
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: was hard for him to process that, I guess. But
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: he did go on and he joined dating services. He
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: was dating a lot of women after her. And then
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: he met his second wife. That marriage fell apart as well.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: And I mean, I guess you could say that there
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: were incidents of violence at that point. He had choked
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: her several times. I think it was about three times.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: And he would hit her, but then stop himself. So
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: there were, I mean, it was starting to show, I
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: guess you could say, his aggression at that point. But
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: he was trying to control it because he knew that
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: if he did kill her or any of his wives, right,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: that he would be the first suspect. And then he
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: got married a third time, you said? Yeah, married a
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: third time. Yeah. So after Marcia, so he got married
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: to Marcia. They were married for about seven years. He
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: had his son with Marcia, and then he ended up
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: getting married to Judith. in 1988. Met her in 85.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Then they got married in 88.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: And they stayed married the whole time?
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: They stayed married the whole time.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: I know that you said when all hell broke loose
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: with his first wife. Is that when he started murdering women?
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Is that when this began?
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: That's kind of what he alluded to. So that's the thing.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: That would date it in the 70s. So when that
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: marriage ended, that was... within the 70s. I believe so.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: The way he made it seem, he would pick up
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: women who were sex workers. And I think early on,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: he would strangle them, but not to kill them. That
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: was in the beginning. So in the beginning, this was
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: something that he would do not, again, according to him,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: his purpose at that point was not to actually kill them.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: And he would leave them unconscious, not knowing, well, maybe
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: he did kill them, maybe he didn't. That's the way
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: he made it sound. But then when it got to
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: later on in the 80s, 82, that's when it dawned
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: on him, you know, he just, it escalated, which I
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: think is true for a lot of serial killers where
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: this behavior starts out one way and then, you know,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: it just gets worse and worse and worse. And I
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: think that's true for him that there were, you know,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: because there were women that he had said that he
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: had strangled, but then their bodies were never found. And
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: it seems like they just got up and walked away,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: which could be true. And they never reported it because... Right.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: You know, the backlash that they could receive from reporting it. Right. Yeah.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: So I think that that could be true. I don't
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: think he's necessarily lying about that. And I think it's
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: just something that over time it then became to him, OK,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: he's going to start killing them.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Now, when you start corresponding with him, is this different
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: than BTK or anyone else that you, you know, Smiley Face,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: anybody else that you've corresponded with? Because this goes on
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: a really, really long time, years, right?
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was different because I was able to build
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: a more solid rapport with Gary. I mean, I have
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: a pretty good rapport with Jesperson as well, but with Ridgway...
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: He started calling me like every day at one point.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: So I was investing a lot more time into speaking
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: with him than others. So I was able from, you know,
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: from that to build this rapport with him.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: So you build a rapport and is it with the
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: intention of what? You know, you've got, you're doing this
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: as like a, you know, a write-up for your website,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: for your blog and everything. But, you know, at some point,
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: you know that you're going to continue talking to him.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: For what purpose, though?
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Well, in the beginning of my communication with him, when
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: he started to talk about all of these unsolved cases,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: that was always in the back of my mind. I
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: wanted to see if there was a possibility that I
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: could retrieve information. And... My goal at that point became, well,
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: let me just keep him talking for as long as possible.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Because if I keep him talking, then there's always the
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: chance that he could reveal something to me.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: You had said he wasn't really talking to the media.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Do you know why?
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: He hates the media. Yeah.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Because what? He's painted as what? I mean, what does
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: he disagree with? The way he's painted that the media.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, he feels that they just look at the
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: gory details of his case and they just want to
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: sensationalize it. And no one... The way he made it sound,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: it was like, no one really cares to get to
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: know me as a person. And he kind of went
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: off on this tangent one day when I began questioning
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: him about these cases. And... he almost made his sound like, oh,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: you're just like the rest of them. And it felt
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: threatening in a way that he was going to cut
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: off communication with me if I didn't shift and allow
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: him control of the conversation. So I kind of took
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: that cue and said, okay. And I said, well, and
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: he said, you know, there's good that I've done too.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: I've done good in my life too. And I said, well,
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: tell me about that. what good have you done? And
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: he was like, really? You want to talk about that?
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, I would like to talk about that.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: And that was a moment, I think, where everything kind
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: of shifted because he realized at that point, like, okay,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: she's really going to listen to what I have to say.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: And maybe she does care to know other things about me.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: And so something definitely shifted at that moment in my
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: correspondence with him. And I think at that point, I
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: proved to him that But yeah, I'm willing to listen
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: to what you have to say. And so then he
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: went off and told me this story about helping this
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: woman that had gotten hit by a car that he
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: had witnessed this whole thing happen. And he went out
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: to help and trying to prove to me, but at
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: the same time trying to prove to me that look,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: there's more to me than being a serial killer because
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: I think he did want me to like him and
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: trust him. And that was all part of the manipulation
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, too.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Okay. Because I was thinking, you know, you agreed to
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: this and you sort of backed down and let him
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: take a little bit of control. But that must be
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: hard because, you know, there's, I feel like, nothing empathetic,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: no matter what he went through in childhood, you know,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: nothing empathetic about Gary Ridgway. But you have to I
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: guess you felt like you were compelled to play the
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: part to get some information out of him.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it really became like a game at the end
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: of the day, yeah.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: That's awful, though, especially, I mean, I know there's no
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: way he's getting out of prison. I had just read
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: that he won't even be able to go into hospice care,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I guess. He can't get transferred anywhere, right? I mean,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: he's where he is.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's in the infirmary. They have an infirmary in
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: that prison, so he's been there long-term. Okay. So he
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: does receive... I guess, medical care. I don't know to
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: what extent. It's probably quite limited, but he does receive
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: some type of care. And it's more like a hospital
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: setting than it is a prison setting at this point.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Well, tell me about, you know, when it sparks with
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: you that there might be a cold case or two
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: that might be able to be connected to him. Tell
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: me kind of how that story goes.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: So when I began researching... cold cases. Because again, this
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: was very early on when I started talking to him
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: that he was telling me, oh, there's like 32 to
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: 42 more cases that he could be responsible for. And
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: I started to look into it and I began to
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: compile a list, which he wanted me to do. He said,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: compile a list, send it to me. He wanted to
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: know dates when women went missing, where they went missing,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: if I could find that. Just to see if something
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: would trigger his memory. So I started to do that.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: And I compiled a very long list. I think my
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: list was about 70 to 80 something, which I don't
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: think he's responsible for all of those. It was just
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: during that time period. So from the early, so from
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: late 70s into 2001, any women who were involved in
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: who could fit into this. But again, I don't know
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: if it's... I would say he's probably not responsible for
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: all of those. But I compiled a list and I
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: sent it to him. And that's when.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Again, everything began to shift in my communication with him
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: because it almost seemed like he was bothered at the
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: effort that I was putting into trying to get answers.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: And he was just like, oh, this doesn't matter to me.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: It's meaningless. None of those names mean anything to me.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: And so it began to become like, it was like
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: a cat and mouse game where I was like, okay,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: when I would get those responses from him where he
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: would seem annoyed and bothered, I would kind of back
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: off a little bit at them because, again, I was
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: trying to keep him talking. So I would have to
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: kind of pivot and kind of go wherever he wanted
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: to take me in the conversation and then try to
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: circle back and get as much information as I could.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: So it really felt like a game. But two cases
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: that really stood out to me were Nicole French and
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Sarah Habakongas. So these two women, they were very young.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: They were teenagers, and they went missing in the early 90s.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: One of them, so Nicole French, actually went missing from
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: the same corner as like three other victims of his.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: It was a corner where he was known to be active,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: and it was right near the 7-Eleven where he would
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: park his truck and just kind of stalk and look
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: out and you know, see if he could find someone, right?
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: So it was that same corner she went missing from,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: and she was found in the North Bend area, in
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: a wooded area in North Bend, very close to another
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: dump site, like he would call them, these clusters or
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: dump sites, where he had left other confirmed victims. So
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Those were red flags. I mean, right away, I said, okay,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: that definitely fits his pattern. Same corner, woman involved in
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: sex work, left in the same vicinity. And that was
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: something that he told me too early on. If a
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: woman was found strangled and she was involved in sex
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: work and she was found close to other remains, other victims,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: then it has to be his. So he gave me
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: a very vague confession because what had happened in the 90s,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: a lot of news reports came out about these two
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: cases too, that it could be another CRO killer, that
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: another CRO killer is in the area. It may not
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: be the Green River killer. And I think the reason
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: for that is because law enforcement, you have to think
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: millions of dollars went into trying to find him and
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: they didn't, they weren't able to find him at that point. So-
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: I think they were trying to possibly protect the reputation
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: of the police department and trying to say, oh, it
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: could be another serial killer. So that was one thing
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: that he brought up to me. How could it be
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: another serial killer? How could another serial killer be leaving
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: women in the same exact locations? Those are my spots.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Those are my locations, he kept telling me, right? And
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: which it kind of made sense because, again, other victims
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: were found in this area that were his, that were
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Leda confirmed to be his. So Nicole French and Sarah
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Habakongas were both found in this area in North Bend
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: in the early 90s. And later on, when I was
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: able to obtain their autopsy reports, because I had to
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: reach out to their families in order for them to
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: approve that. So I was able to get their autopsy reports.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: And then I was able to contact one of the
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: medical examiners. who was able to go through the entire
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: report with me of Nicole French. And he believed at
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: that point it was a Green River case because he
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: had worked so many others and he said it fit
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: the pattern. So when I asked him, well, what do
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: you think? Could evidence be retested? And so he believed
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: that the ligature that was left tied around her neck,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: which again, that's another thing that Ridgway did with other victims.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: His first known Green River victim, Wendy Caulfield, had a
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: ligature tied around her neck. There were several others that
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: he left the ligature tied around their neck. So same
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: thing with Nicole French. Her pants were left tied around
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: her neck. And the medical examiner confirmed that evidence should
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: still be on file. And it could be retested at
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: this point with all of the advancements in technology. So
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I reached out to Othram and I asked, could it
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: be retested? If King County Sheriff's Office were willing to
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: give them this ligature, these pants, They said, yes, they
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: could retest it. So when I contacted King County, they said, no,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: this is an active case. It's ongoing. They didn't want
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: to talk to me. They didn't want to hear anything
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: I had to say. And Offram contacted them, same thing.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: We don't need your help. So I'm left with a
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: lot of questions about that.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Like, why?
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: You know, does something happen to that piece of evidence?
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Why don't they want to at least retest it? Even
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: if it's not him, at least, you know, try and
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: close the case.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Sounds like the family needs to go to the media
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: and create a big ruckus, you know, kind of thing.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: This is all the steps that have been taken and
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: they're still refusing to do it.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: And that would probably be the thing that does it.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: But I don't know if it's Nicole, right? I don't
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: know if her family would be interested in doing that.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, they were speaking with me. And, you know,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: knowing that I'm a writer and I did include all
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: of this in my book, and if my book does
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: anything good, I'm hoping it'll bring attention to these two
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: cases and maybe something can be done. Hmm. Okay. Because,
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, and there were other things, too, that point
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: to him. So later on, when he was questioned about
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: these cases by law enforcement, He went back and forth. First,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: he said, yes, I killed Nicole. And then he said, no.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: And then he said, yes. Which is classic Gary. He
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: did that with a lot of other victims. And then
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: it was determined that it appeared that she had been
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: tied up. Like, there were marks around her wrists indicating
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: that she had been tied up.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: And.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: He had said, well, maybe I started tying them up. Again,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: classic Gary. He didn't really remember. But the rope that
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: they found at the crime scene was identical to a
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: rope that they found in his truck. It was the
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: same type of rope. And they tried to say, oh, well,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: he didn't tie up any of his other victims that
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: they know of. But I don't think.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. Right.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter because we know... He enjoyed tying up women.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: He used to tie up his girlfriends and his wives. And,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: you know, that was a form of foreplay for him.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: And I mean, I think people, when they talk about
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: serial killers, I think people think that they're so rigid
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: about that, you know, they stick with one thing, like the,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, Paul Holes always talks about the idea of
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Ted Bundy always attacking blondes. That wasn't the case, you know,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, and well, but this child is dead and
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: this person never attacked children. It does not matter. Their
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: motive or their way of doing things changes and they're adaptable.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: And that's why they don't get caught, a lot of them, right?
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Because they're so adaptable. So when somebody says, oh, he
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: never used this, but I mean, who cares?
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: He did.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, who cares? It doesn't, none of
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: that matters.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: They go so far out of their comfort zone if
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: they can, if there's a, you know, a crime of opportunity,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: you know?
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. And also with that case too, I mean, in
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: her autopsy, it showed that she had abrasions on her back,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: which he had said that to prove this was his victim,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: if she had marks on her back, it was probably
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: him because he used to drag them through the woods.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: So that's another, I mean, there's so many things that
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: point to him. And like you said, they don't stick
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: to just one pattern of behavior for the entire time
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: when they're killing. I think they do things that are
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: different to try and not get caught. And then also
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: to try to up the excitement in a way. So
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: in the 90s, yeah, maybe he did start tying them
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: up because maybe that gave him more of a thrill.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: So I wouldn't rule him out. I think based off
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: of everything I know, there's a very strong possibility he's
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: connected to those two cases. I would even say there's
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: a third one, Rosemary Curran. She's another one that he
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: did admit to killing. And they didn't accept his confession
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: because he wasn't precise enough in detailing what else he
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: had done to the body. Like, there were some things
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: that happened that he wasn't being specific about. But this
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: was the late 80s. This was 87.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: And as you said, I mean, he started blending details together,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: I'm sure. Yeah. What happens when he, you said, remind
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: me of what he says when he's presented. Is it pictures?
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: How does he know? How is it presented to him
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: when asking about Nicole and about Sarah's, these cases? Does
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: he see a picture and go, yeah or no?
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: No, he just told me, oh, these names don't mean
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: anything to me. He tried to deny it. Like, I
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: gave him a list, and he was just like, no.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: And then later on, this was already after when he
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: had gotten sick, and I was finding more and more
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: information out about these cases, because it takes time. It
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: really took time for me to reach out to the
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: family and get them to agree. They had a sign...
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: all these permission forms to allow me to have access
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: to the autopsy room. All of that took a lot
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: of time. So at that point, I was no longer
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: in communication with him, but I still, I tried to
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: reach out one more time and I had said to him,
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: you know, these two cases came up and, you know,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: did you do this? And no response. I mean, so
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know if he would ever confess anything to
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: any of these additional cases. I think part of the fun, excitement,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it, I think he gets
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: some sort of pleasure out of withholding information from me,
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: from law enforcement, because he's able to maintain power over everybody.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: And I think it brings him satisfaction in doing that
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: and knowing that he's probably going to die with some
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: of these secrets.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: But then why talk to you in general? Because he
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: wanted to try to control the narrative that he was
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: a good guy?
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: I think that's part of it. And also... Not only
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: to show, because he would contradict himself. Like on one end,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: he's trying to prove to me, oh, look, I'm not
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: that bad. But then he's also like, yeah, I killed
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: a lot more, right? So I think he wanted to
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: control the narrative. I think he wanted maybe the infamy
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: to kind of preserve it in a way, you know,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: because he had been silent for so long.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: Why you, do you think? Why not like Esquire magazine or,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: you know, like a big, like with a big media outlet?
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Why go with a blogger?
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: I think because I really was willing to listen and
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: I was willing to invest time in building that rapport
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: with him. And I really think that was a big
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: part of it. And I gave him some sort of
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: control over the discussions. He knew he could talk to
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: me about anything. He could tell me anything. I wasn't
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: going to hang up on him and he would test me.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: A lot.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. You know? So I think that was a big
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: part of it.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: I do. What was going to be the end for
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: you when you got some information about these cold cases?
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Is that what would mark... Assuming... Let's assume he doesn't
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: get sick. What would be the last phone call you
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: have with him?
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: I would have tried to get information about these cases
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: as much as possible. And then he had also told
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: me he had buried a box of evidence... containing photographs
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: and spiral notebooks and other, I guess you can call
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: them trophies, that he took from his victims. He had
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: told me he buried this box of evidence that could
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: possibly help in solving the... additional cases. So, according to him,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: it's in a park somewhere in King County. And he
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: had given me all sorts of hints and clues as
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: to which park it could be in. And according to him,
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: it was along his work route. And he would pass
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: it on his way to work. And when I ran
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: this by one of the members of the original task force...
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: He believed that it existed. Actually, a few of the
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: original members of the task force believed that this box
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: exists because that was one of the things that came
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: up a lot in their interviews with him, that he
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: had taken polarites of his victims and he told them, oh,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: I've repped them up. But they never believed him. They
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: believed that he probably held on to all of you know,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: all of these trophies, I guess you want to call
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: them that. So when he told me that, he said
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: that was his get out of death penalty card. Because
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: he always knew that if it ever came down to
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: them finding another victim in a county outside of King County,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: then he could possibly face the death penalty. That was
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: part of the plea agreement. that he had to, his
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: plea agreement only was for King County, Washington. So if
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: they found another victim in, let's say, Pierce County, then
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: he could have faced the death penalty. So that was
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: always in the back of his mind. So he alluded
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: to me, he pretty much said, yeah, he killed in
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: other counties in Washington. So that was always a possibility.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: that they could discover something. So he felt that he
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: was protecting himself and he felt that they would want
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: this information and then wouldn't give him the death penalty.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is going back. This was before Washington
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: got rid of it. But yeah, I mean, so... I
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: think it's 50-50. There could be some truth to it.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: You didn't go digging around in a park out there?
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, I did. I did.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: He wasn't specific enough with you, I assume.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, he gave me... He broke down as to
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: what it could look like and if it's along his
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: work route from the third house that he lived in.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: So I was able to narrow it down to... I
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: think it was about 17 parks. I went to one.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: I tried. You know, it would really come down to
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: law enforcement putting an effort. And they have the resources.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: They have the tools. They have manpower to maybe go
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: out and search.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: Did he want you to come see him in person?
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: That was scheduled. That was planned. Yeah. We were going
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: to meet face-to-face in 2021. So it was during COVID.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: And everything was planned and scheduled. And that took a while, too.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's not easy to just, you know, you
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: don't just waltz into a prison. So he had to
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: approve it. I had to fill out all these forms.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: And I flew out to Seattle. And then a COVID
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: outbreak happened in his unit. So they canceled the visit.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: And I was going to go back there, but then
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: he ended up in the hospital and just never got better.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: And they wouldn't allow me access to him while he's
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: in the infirmary.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: Does he have a relationship or did he have a
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: relationship with his son?
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: No, not in prison. I mean, earlier, like when his
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: son was young and he was raising him, he had
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: a relationship with him. But once he was incarcerated, his
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: son chose not to speak with him.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: Did he ever talk about that?
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it bothered him. I mean, that would come up
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: in conversation that his son doesn't come see him, doesn't
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: talk to him. And of course, he blamed it on
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: his son's wife that, oh, if always blaming a woman, right? Oh,
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: if his son decided to have a relationship with him,
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: that his wife wouldn't like that. And he believed that
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: was the reason for his son not speaking with him.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: which I think is probably BS. I mean, I don't know,
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: but I mean, I think it has more to do
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: with the fact he killed close to 100 women.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: I was thinking Catherine Ramsland, you know, who, of course,
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: interviewed Dennis Rader for years, you know, she would say
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: that she had once suggested to Robert Hare— I've said
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: this on the show, I think, before— Robert Hare, who
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: made Hare's checklist of psychopathy— that he should add whining
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: to it because she said every serial killer I've ever
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: interviewed has just, they complain, they whine. And she said
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Rader whined about like maybe a brother coming home and interrupting,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: you know, what would have been a sexual assault and
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: a murder. And I mean, just like, it was like
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: he had left his lunch at home. It was like
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: that tone. And it sounds like Gary Ridgway was kind
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: of like that too with you where it's like, gosh,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: you know, none of this is my fault. And of
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: course not taking responsibility at all. Yeah.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, he admitted like, oh, you know, he's responsible
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: for killing all these women, but he always tried to
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: justify it and blame everything else in his life.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: You know, it's not directly his fault. It's, oh, look
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: what they did to him or look what happened here.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: So yeah, he was always trying to justify his behavior
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: in some way.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: I always wonder if people like that does he, when
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: he was healthy, does he sit in a cell ever
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: and just wonder, like, you know, maybe not blaming himself
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: at all, but just sort of says, I mean, this
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: wasn't a good idea and maybe it wasn't worth it.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: And now I've been stuck in this prison for decades
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to die by myself and my son's
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: not talking to me. But he doesn't sound like that
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: kind of a self-reflective kind of guy.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: No. I mean, he would try to act like he
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: had remorse and tell me, you know, he became religious
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: and he would read the Bible all day and, you know,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: all of these, all of these things, which he thought
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: were going to save him, right? Because his belief in
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: the afterlife, you know, he's afraid of dying.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: He's afraid of.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Going to hell. But at the end of the day, no,
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, he pretty much told me that if, He
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: could kill again. He would. And the only thing stopping him,
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: preventing him, is the fact he's in prison. So he
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: would say, well, I'm in here. I can't hurt anybody anymore.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: But he would then pretty much say, you know, like,
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: he would say things like, oh, a leopard can't change
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: its spots. You know, so nobody really changes. And if
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: he could, he would. And he kind of described it
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: as an addiction. It was something that he couldn't really control.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: Where it was difficult for him to control the urges.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Now, I know that you found him to be particularly
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: manipulative of you. Can you tell me a little bit
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: about that experience, what that was like? Because, you know,
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: at the beginning, he's like, I want to, you know,
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: help you try to figure out if we can fill
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: in the blanks on these 21 or however many 22
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: other you know, victims that they say they can't pin
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: to me, blah, blah. So then, but it changes, right?
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: Is it changing very quickly or is it kind of
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: an evolution over time?
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Probably over time and the more comfortable he became speaking
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: with me. And it almost felt like he was testing
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: me as to what am I going to tolerate? And,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: you know, he would, you know, there were points if
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: I became too disagreeable, he would potentially cut off, like
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: try and cut off communication with me or he would
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: go like a week or two, just not call me
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: in a way, I guess, to punish me.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: It's like a bad boyfriend.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he would do that. But then
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: he would begin to feign concern for me where he
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: would make it seem like he really cared about my
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: well-being and that he didn't want anything bad to happen
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: to me. And he, you know, he cared about me
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: so much. He loved me, all this stuff. And at
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: the same time, he would sit there and tell me, well,
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: this is everything that can happen to you. And he
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: would be really descriptive and really explicit. And it would
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: be really disturbing to listen to these murder-rape scenarios and
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. And he would write me these really
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: disturbing letters and just say, well, here's a list. This
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: is what could happen. So.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: That doesn't make you want to stop right there. I mean,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: and just say, I've had enough of this.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Part of me did. I was really horrified and I
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: wasn't sleeping. I was having nightmares. It was really impacting
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: me every day. But at the same time, I just
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: didn't want to give up in trying to find out
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: more information. And I'm like, well, if I have to
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: listen to all of these horrible fantasies, whatever it is,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: just let them talk. And then try to get in
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: my questions and try and he would breadcrumb information to
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: me you know so it was like he would give
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: me like pieces of information and then i'd have to
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: tolerate all of his disgusting fantasies so that was i
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: i think at the core of the manipulation.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: For sure and what's sad is you know i mean
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: you got it sounds like you got really close with
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: these two cases but You've got King County, who's kind
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: of standing in the way of connecting these definitively. Will
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: you remind me, how did he get caught? It wasn't DNA.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: What was it?
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: It was DNA. It was?
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Okay. Did they not have rape kits done on Nicole
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: and Sarah?
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, from what I was able to gather in
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: the autopsy, yeah. And the medical examiner said if he
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: was ever called to testify, in Nicole's case anyway, because
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: there was a different medical examiner in Sarah's case who
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: I couldn't get to speak with. But in Nicole's case,
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: the medical examiner had said that he would absolutely say
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: that there was evidence of sexual assault. It's sexual violence.
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: That there was enough information that he was able to
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: gather that would prove that. So at this point, it
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: really comes down to King County. And, you know, Othram
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: was willing to help. They are willing to retest any
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: evidence on file. So it really comes down to them
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: just allowing that to happen.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Did they give you any kind of indication, King County,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: like if he dies, does that not close the case
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: and then you can, you know, move ahead with this stuff?
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Or are they just going to keep these habitually open?
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: It's really hard to say because the thing is, as
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: long as a case is open and active, they could
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: deny anything. their records. And that was the whole thing.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: They wouldn't give up any of their case notes, any
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: other information that could potentially help piece all this together.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: They just refused to assist and give up their records.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: At one point, I was speaking with an attorney who
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: specializes in public records in Washington. And his advice to
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: me was, well, threaten that you're going to sue them
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: for their records because he believed that if I took
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: this to court, a judge would rule in my favor
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: and would say, okay, he would say to the police, well,
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: You need to prove that you've been working these cases for,
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever, 30 plus years. And he felt that
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: they probably wouldn't have been able to do that. So
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: he said, why don't you try and rattle them? Tell
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: them that you're going to go ahead with this. And
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: so I did. And you know what happened? About three
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: weeks later, they move Gary from Walla Walla to Seattle.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: And I don't know what the exact purpose is. Supposedly,
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: they're trying to solve cases. So I don't know if
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: that's just coincidence. I don't know if they took my
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: threat and said, oh, we don't want to deal with this.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: We're going to make it seem like we're solving cases.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: I don't really know if that was, I'll never be
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: able to prove it either way, but it's just really
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: strange how that happened, the timeline.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think when I've seen things work, It's
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: almost always been when the families come forward and they
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: get in the media and they basically say, this is BS.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: You know, we are so close. There's items that we
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: can test. The autopsy, I mean, mentioning you, working with
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: a journalist, there's an autopsy, you know, report available that
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: indicates that this is probably one of his victims. This
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: happened within blocks, you know, and it's not until it's
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: in the media that where people just say this is,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: you know, they feel a lot of pressure. And then, like,
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: why not do it? Because then they turn out to
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: be the hero, you know?
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: But I think because these cases happened during a time
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: when millions of.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: Dollars were being... Yeah.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: So I think it's a lot about their reputation. And
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: then for some reason, I don't even know what this means,
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: but what I found in the full interrogation So when
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: they had him for six months in the little bunker
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: or whatever, they had him, they were interviewing him for
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: six months. Gary brought up to them that he's responsible
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: for more than 49. And one of the detectives said, well,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: the list has to stay at 49. It's politically motivated
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: to stay at 49. What does that mean? It's been
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: politically motivated to stay at 49. Right.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, because then it means they dropped the
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: ball on the other ones. They didn't pursue him. You know,
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems like.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's really too bad. And it sounds like
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: he's not useful at this point, nor was he really
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: even to begin with. You know, one thing that I
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: was curious about was how are you going to feel
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: when he dies?
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: It's hard to say. I mean, it's one of those
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: things that I think it has to happen in order,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: you know, we could speculate. But until something like that happens,
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: you really don't know. I don't know if I'll feel
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: relieved or probably a combination of relief, but also at
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: the same time, sadness over the fact that he is
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: taking secrets with him to his grave literally. And that's
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: a shame.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: I wonder how the families feel, if it would be
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: like a relief or I don't know what. And I
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: also don't know what the families of the women who,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: you know, are likely his victim's How'd they feel, too?
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Do they want him to be connected to this serial killer?
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: At least the person would be known. I mean, what
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: if it's not Gary Ridgway and it's somebody in their
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: lives that's still alive? I mean, you know, there's, golly,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: just like so many mixed feelings.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I know with Nicole French's mother, she
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: believes it's probably Ridgway. And she had told me she
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: just wants her daughter to be named on that list. Like,
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: she just wants to have that sense of closure. Even
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: some type of, like, to her, that would be, like,
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: a sense of justice that her daughter's being acknowledged that
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: this is what happened to her. And according to her,
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, she did go and she went to Seattle
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: to speak with the police, like, after this happened. And
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: they were not really willing to... give her much information
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: and kind of just wanted her to go away. That's
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: how she made it seem when she described it to me.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: And with Sarah's family, her brother, of course, wants answers,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: you know? And according to him, they told him that,
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: the police told him that his sister's killer was already imprisoned.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: And then, like, what does that really mean, you know?
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: And then they tried to say, oh, no, it's not Ridgway. Like, they, like,
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: tried to confirm that with him, but he doesn't know
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: what to believe. Nothing's really been confirmed. There's no real
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: proof of anything that they were willing to show him.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: So it's, and if the killer, if they know who
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: the killer is, then why is the case still open?
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: Why was it never closed, right? So it makes no sense.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: It really makes no sense.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And, you know, with Dennis Rader's case, you've got
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: his daughter, who is Carrie, who is just pursuing everything
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: she possibly can, of course convinced that her dad has
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: murdered more people and wanting to really pursue justice on
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: behalf of those victims. You don't really have anybody in
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: that position, you know, with... with the exception of you,
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: with Gary Ridgway.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: Sadly, yeah. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm doing, I'm still,
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: even though my book is published, I'm still trying to
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: do whatever I can to get answers. You know, I
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: know if there's like 32, 42 more cases, I don't
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: know if all of those will ever be solved. Like
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: I said before, I think it's harder when... The remains
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: are not found. That makes it a lot more challenging.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: But in these two cases, though, the remains were found.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: And there's evidence that could be retested as far as
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: I know. So there's really no reason not to have
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: answers in this way, especially with all the advancements in technology.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: It really just blows my mind that it has to
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: be so much of a fight to do this.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I think it falls back to the
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: unfortunate reality that, you know, they're doing exactly what has
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: happened in a lot of police departments around the country
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: over the centuries, which is, you know, ignoring or minimizing
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: sex workers as victims or survivors. And so it just
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: plays into that. I mean, it's a fear. I just,
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: I think it's awful. And unfortunately, I wish it were
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: just sort of like a nasty thing oh, it's only
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: happened a few times, and then all the police get
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: pegged with this. But it is something, and now you
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: see it. You have proof that, you know, I guarantee you,
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: if these two women were missing, you know, mothers who
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: were from upper middle class or even middle class, you know,
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: that were not sex workers, probably anybody but sex workers,
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: that this would be pursued.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: But it's not. And that's what's sad about it. And
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: I hope that that certainly changes. But I do think
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: it has to be media pressure. It's got to be
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: coming from the families or from the public. And it's
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: been a lot of years. So I hope that something
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: gets drummed up here. I really do. Me too.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: And that's why any time I do any sort of media,
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: no matter what podcast I go on, I make it known.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: that these two cases exist. And it's my hope that
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: awareness will just spread and maybe there'll be some noise
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: made about it.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: audio versions of my books, The Sinners All Bow, The
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. And
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: don't forget, there are 12 seasons of my historical true
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked. right here in this podcast feed.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: is Alexis Amorosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgareff,
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: at TenfoldMoreWicked.com. and on Twitter at Tenfold More. And if
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: you know of a historical crime that could use some
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: attention from the crew at Tenfold More Wicked, email us
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: at info at tenfoldmorewicked.com. We'll also take your suggestions for
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: true crime authors for Wicked Words.