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Dirt Sorcery and the Living Field with Aidan Wachter · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, somethings are going to happen. What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What?
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the occult rejects. Today we're joined by
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Adian Walker, author of Six Ways, Approaches and Entries for
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Practical Magic, Weaving Fate and Change Them. Aiden's work sits
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  Speaker 1: in a very practical current of modern sorcery, animasm, spirit work, sigils, offerings, trance,
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  Speaker 1: talisman's dreamwork, feate work, witchcraft, and what he calls dirt sorcery.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: What makes his approach stand out is that it's not
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  Speaker 1: built around rigid dogma or ceremonial performance. It is about relationship, attention, embodiment, responsibility,
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  Speaker 1: and learning how to live in a world that is
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  Speaker 1: not dead matter, but alive with powers, spirits, signals, and relationships.
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  Speaker 1: In Six Ways, Aiden gives a direct, grounded approach to
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  Speaker 1: practical magic and spirit relationship. In Weaving Fate, he goes
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  Speaker 1: deeper into fate, memory, selfhood, the Black Book, the Corridor,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: and the Feverstone as tools for reshaping the forces that
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  Speaker 1: influence our lives. In Changeling, he continues into witchcraft, practice, sovereignty,
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  Speaker 1: self discipline, change, and what it means to weave magic
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  Speaker 1: into the whole fabric of life. So today we're going
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  Speaker 1: to talk about practical magic, animism, spirit relationships, offerings, trance, sigils, talismans,
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  Speaker 1: the dead, sacred fear, spiritual hygiene, dirt, sorcery, and what
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  Speaker 1: it means to build a living sorceress practice without turning
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  Speaker 1: it into fantasy theater or empty occult aesthetics. And joining
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  Speaker 1: me today to talk to Aiden. We got sonre from
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: the Order of Chaos. What is going on? My man.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I'm very glad to have you back. It's been a minute.
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  Speaker 1: It's good to see you.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, it's good to be back. He's been
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: of a hectic couple weeks over here. But that was
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: quite Your introductions are getting so good.
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  Speaker 2: I was gonna say, I think I'm more interesting in
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: that description than I've heard, certainly more so than in reality.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: I'll give it to you. And he says, you're like
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: a biography on your next book or something.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that was great. And then, but you know,
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  Speaker 3: to be fair, I think it was totally accurate. Also great,
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  Speaker 3: it's a great introduction because it's a lot of good
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: stuff to say about your work. You know, it's I
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  Speaker 3: think that there's a couple of people who are moving
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  Speaker 3: in this direction of animism as the kind of bottom line,
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: you know, it's like getting back to pagan roots but
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  Speaker 3: with modern technology and modern insights. And I love that
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: and I think that you're doing that extraordinarily well. So
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  Speaker 3: all that to me sounded dead on accurate, but also
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  Speaker 3: just a good job. That was very cool, very well written. Anyways, Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I'm Son. I'm the head teacher at the Order of
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: cast the Cult University. I also do YouTube kind of,
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: but I think of myself as a teacher and a
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: YouTuber and real quick plug. Everything on my website today
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: is half off. That includes uh subscriptions, It includes joining
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: the school, includes getting it if you want just arror
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: reading or a coaching package, even if you want to
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: become a lifetime member. You say, I have five hundred
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: bucks on that one today. So the code to get
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: that is three three three, put it in the coupon code.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: Unless you're getting a coaching package, then it's four four four.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: Have fun with that, all right.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: It sounds like too much for people to remember, and
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: somebody's gonna screw that up right later. I know I
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: would be. I'd be stolen out and.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Mix these things up and get something special. Yeah, it
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  Speaker 2: does like.
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  Speaker 1: Four three, we try five to five.
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  Speaker 3: I wanted to do guys for the longest time, so
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  Speaker 3: I have this weird obsession with like cartoon ish secret
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: Illuminati stuff. Okay, so if I if I won the
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: lottery today and I would, here's how it's spend money.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: I would buy a house that had every every bookshelf,
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: would have a you know, a book that you pull
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: and then something flips around. There's a staircase, and there's
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: a you know. So what I wanted to do for
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: my website for a long ass time was have like
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: some kind of esoteric puzzle that you had to solve
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  Speaker 3: to even see the website. And I did that for
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: a while, but no one could fucking solve it. I
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  Speaker 3: couldn't think of anything it was both easy enough and
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  Speaker 3: fun enough to make it worth doing. But if I
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: if I can think of one, I would do that.
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  Speaker 1: That's like some Cicada three three on one ship.
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  Speaker 3: Totally amazing. Yeah, that'd absolutely But you know, all who
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: does is keep people from seeing my website.
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  Speaker 1: Nice let me know when you do figure that out, though,
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  Speaker 1: that'd be interesting. So if please let everybody know anything
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: that I left out or anything you want to promote.
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  Speaker 1: Please let people know what your deal is and where
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  Speaker 1: they can find you.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much what was said. My focus mostly on
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  Speaker 2: this point is on animism and on uh kind of
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: the course stuff that I do, which there probably won't
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  Speaker 2: be another one for about a year, but because we
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  Speaker 2: just started one. Uh. The courses are usually kind of
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: framed as building a tool set rather than a data dump,
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  Speaker 2: and so they're very intensive, hands on. Do it during
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  Speaker 2: the course, get involved with the course people and all
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  Speaker 2: that stuff, and that's been working really well. We're just
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  Speaker 2: a week or so into the current one.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: The way that I've described it recently is that I
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  Speaker 2: was initially drawn to magic due to spirit contact, but
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  Speaker 2: then kind of got sucked into the grid, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the the wider world of you know, the Leima and
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: witchcraft and Kenneth Grant and chaos magic and all of
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  Speaker 2: that stuff, and I've kind of popped out the other side.
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  Speaker 2: It is how I think about it. I ended up
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  Speaker 2: close to where I started, but with way more actual
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  Speaker 2: understanding of what's happening in way clearer contact. It's not
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  Speaker 2: random anymore, and I'm mostly just talking to what I
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  Speaker 2: call the peeps, which are the kind of spirits that
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  Speaker 2: are around me. And we do all this stuff together.
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  Speaker 2: It's a group project. And yeah, so I'm working on
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  Speaker 2: another book right now that hopefully will come out next year.
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  Speaker 2: It's kind of headed off to the editor for the
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: first past, but they'll probably have it for a few months.
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  Speaker 2: We take this stuff really slowly to kind of generate
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: what we want to do with each book. And yeah,
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  Speaker 2: other than that, I'm really active on Patreon. That's the
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  Speaker 2: main place that I exist. There's probably one hundred and
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  Speaker 2: fifty q and a videos up on Patreon now on
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  Speaker 2: a lot of stuff. There's a thirteen part sigil course
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  Speaker 2: on how I work with oh that's just available for
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: the baseline. There's the tiers are all the same. It's
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  Speaker 2: just according to what you can pay. And that's about it. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I just animist who happens to have gotten there through magic,
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  Speaker 2: and magic is what I know. So that's how I teach.
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  Speaker 1: I love it. I like how you said that. I
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  Speaker 1: guess you mentioned you had spirit contact which kind of
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  Speaker 1: brought you into it or something along those lines. I
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  Speaker 1: always ask every person that I have on what got
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  Speaker 1: you even into this stuff? So I don't know if
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  Speaker 1: maybe you want to kind of get into that a
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  Speaker 1: little bit more. What got you into the magic or
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  Speaker 1: the occult?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Sunri knows this because we've talked about some
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  Speaker 2: of it. But for folks that don't know me, I
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  Speaker 2: grew up in suburban California, super boring, uh now, really
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: obviously neurodivergent kid back when that was not really a
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  Speaker 2: thing in the US to be that they were aware of,
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: which I think is probably good because that was also
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  Speaker 2: I grew up in the time where most of my
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  Speaker 2: friends that were really noticed as being weird ended up
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  Speaker 2: institutionalized so at least for a short period of time,
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  Speaker 2: or heavily drugged, and I missed. I skipped all that,
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  Speaker 2: and I just had weird shit visually when I was
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  Speaker 2: a kid, usually when I was sick. My first memories
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  Speaker 2: or hallucinations from when I had a really bad fever
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  Speaker 2: with pneumonia when I was two. But the relevant piece
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  Speaker 2: is that when I was eleven, I had a visitation
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  Speaker 2: by what I now know is the Man in Black, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: or the dark Man. Derra mason Field has a really
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  Speaker 2: good book called Song of the dark Man that talks
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  Speaker 2: about the dark Man quite a bit for folks that
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: are looking kind of for more general information on that,
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  Speaker 2: and that just tripped some switch and I didn't recognize
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: it at the time, but everything got weird or and
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: I definitely got weirder. And so that would have been
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: in seventy eight, maybe seventy nine and seventy nine. I
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: was shopping for science fiction books and I saw this
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  Speaker 2: brand new book called The Spiral Dance by a woman
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  Speaker 2: named Starhawk in the probably I don't even think it
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  Speaker 2: was Barnes and Noble, it was Dalton b. Dalton. I
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  Speaker 2: remember that it was old enough and got that and
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  Speaker 2: I could recognize that there was something in there, but
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  Speaker 2: I couldn't figure out how to apply it. I did
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  Speaker 2: do a little bit of magic up until before, up
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  Speaker 2: through the time till I was fifteen, and when I
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: was fifteen, maybe right at sixteen, just because of when
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  Speaker 2: my birthday lands, I ran into some other punks and
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: visited them at their house and they played for the
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Hand of Chance by Psychic TV for me, and I
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: was like, what in the fuck is that? And that
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  Speaker 2: set me out to go buy a copy for myself
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  Speaker 2: on vinyl imported from Japan, very expensive for my little
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  Speaker 2: fifteen year old ass yea. And in it they had
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  Speaker 2: a thing that you could write to them and send
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: them international reply coupons to get more information. And so
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  Speaker 2: my best friend and I polled for that and we got,
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  Speaker 2: you know, a couple of little psychic cross pins and
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: the Gray Book and a few other little flyers from them,
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  Speaker 2: and I started practicing magic out of the Gray Book. First.
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  Speaker 2: It was the kind of first somebody telling me what
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  Speaker 2: to do in me actually doing it pretty much, just
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: because it was about masturbation and I was already really
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: good at that, so that is funny.
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  Speaker 1: That is a cool experience, though that you had to
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  Speaker 1: do the whole like mail Cower correspond.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was super cool. Everything was still mail. Then
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  Speaker 2: I ordered a lot of shit online. I ordered a
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: lot of vellow bound multi generational xeroxes of magic books
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: online because that was the only way you could get them.
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  Speaker 2: So like through the Temple, I had a copy of
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  Speaker 2: Kenneth Grant's Images and Oracles of Austin Osman's Spare, which
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: was a huge influence on me. But you could hardly
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: see the pictures it had been xerox so many times.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: But you could buy these things. You know because I
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: was the shit just wasn't available.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: Do you miss the the element of mystery and this
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: is this is like a cool thing that I had
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: to work really hard to get aspect of that, rather
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: than everything's just being at your fingertips and online.
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  Speaker 2: Now, I think that there's massive power in that, and
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: I think it's something that people have lost and more
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: than that, or it's related to that, but it's almost
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: more than that. It's it's really hard to get and
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: there's nothing common after it as far as you know. Yeah,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: and so you find some book, whether that's Earth Power
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  Speaker 2: by Stuart Cunt or Scott Cunningham. That's another book that
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  Speaker 2: I found that I actually did some work out of
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  Speaker 2: because it's like, oh, I understand this. There's no theory
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  Speaker 2: that is relevant there, it's just do it. And so
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  Speaker 2: I just did it. And so because of that, I
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  Speaker 2: got to find out what that type of work did
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  Speaker 2: for me, rather than let's go and fucking learn everything
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  Speaker 2: fucking possible about elemental magic before I even do something,
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  Speaker 2: and I think that really fucks people up personally.
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  Speaker 3: I definitely agree. Yeah, I think that the mechanical doing
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  Speaker 3: of magic is eighty percent of what your magical practice
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  Speaker 3: should be. And the part that I did where I
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: banged my head against the wall for three years trying
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  Speaker 3: to figure it all out is not like I wouldn't
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  Speaker 3: recommend that to anyone else.
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  Speaker 2: I wouldn't be able to quote it. But I'm currently
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: reading a book called God Is Read from I think
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: ninety four ninety five by Vine Doloria. On it's he
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: subtitles it a Native view of Religion. And there's a
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: really cool thing that I just found this morning that
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: really spoke just I think a lot of that idea
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: which he said that like Western religion and I would
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: throw Western occultism into the same boat, is really like
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: locked into to temporal things like time, like the history
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: of where as he was saying, kind of native and
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: indigenous stuff was locked into place, and so it's the
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: actual lived experience of where you are for fucking generations
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: until it's fucking in your everything, right, Because it's like
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: and I think that that's uh more what I'm kind
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: of what I've been leaning more and more into, even
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: as though I'm a constant traveler, so I don't have
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: a land base, which also is a kind of weird
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: one for an animist but yeah, I kind of think
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  Speaker 2: that you need to know enough to get started. But
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the answers to all the shift that everybody wants to
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: know come from the practice. There's just no other way.
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  Speaker 3: So okay, yeah, I agree. The one thing I would
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  Speaker 3: be wary of, and I guess the driving force for
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: me into really looking at the underlying theory, which is
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: just kind of the way my mind works. But like
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: I said, I don't recommend everyone else to do this.
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  Speaker 1: I don't don't.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting this is universal at all.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So the one thing that I am wary of
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  Speaker 3: because it happened to me many many many years ago,
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: and I've seen it happen with people since they have
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  Speaker 3: an experience of spirit contact and then think that it
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: that that contact and that experience applies ubiquitously to everyone everywhere, right,
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  Speaker 3: And that's how religions get started. Someone talks to God
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: and then they're like, well God told me, yeah, right,
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: Like I think it's important to get your knowledge from
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: direct experience, but then also not to like balance that
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: out with Okay, now how do I sort out I
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: don't know what I'm trying to say. How does this
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: apply in a way that does not inflate my own
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: ego or or cause me to think that I know
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: the one secret truth.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think that that's that's kind of the
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: key to the whole thing. Is this is the other
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: terrible thing about the Internet is you have literally millions
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: of people providing their interpretations of someone else's experience. Yeah,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: and way too many people actually engage in this practice
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: on all sides, and it's really bad for you because
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: of that kind of thing. It's like, if we talk
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: about that kind of time versus space thing right in
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: the time, what we're saying is like, whether it's the
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: Bible or whether it's you know, some particular grim War
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: way of practicing magic from the thirteen hundreds, that's the
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: time based idea that we're talking about, right versus the
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: spatial idea is like, Okay, I have this altar in
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: my room in my house, and I do things there. Yeah,
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: and what happens happens because all of us are in
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: the same space. It is literally specific to that and
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: to try and extrapolate that out to the wider world
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: is kind of sketch totally. And so my approach to
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: kind of guiding folks is to go Hey, these are
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: approaches that have worked with for me, me, and that
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I've seen work for lots of people. And here's the
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: best way that I know into them to see what
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: they do for you. But you shouldn't assume they're gonna
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: do what I say at the end, because sometimes some
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: people get just like reverse effects from shit that I get.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: There's shit that super chills my shit out and it's lovely,
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: and they're like, oh fuck, totally blew me up. It's
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: like cool, stop, yeah, not keep going and try and
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: make it mesh with my experience, Like fucking stop and
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: ease up, and let's look at that maybe, or maybe
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: we find something else for you to do. Because what
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: we're after is the effect that I got, But what
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: got me that effect is not the same.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Right, that could be due to mental state, expectation, a
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: few things, you know what I'm saying. Neurology, Yeah, exactly, Yeah, exactly.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Neurology is the biggest one. It's also, yeah, metal state.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: How the social conditioning that we have and all of
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: us have it, it's inescapable how that has affected you. Right, So,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: like one of the things that I talk about a lot,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: and it's not like it's really a big deal, but
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: it's just to kind of throw an alternate idea out there.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Is there's like a whole section of the Internet that
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: is massively obsessed with all of the ways that folklore
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: and folk tales have produced these dire warnings about magic,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, okay to me, I look at those
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: things and I go, is that legit warnings or is
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: that actually anti magic propaganda that has just survived, knowing
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: what we know about the last couple thousand years. Mostly
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: it's anti magic propaganda. People are way too paranoid about
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: things that they don't need to be paranoid and not
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: paranoid at all about shit they should.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: Be, right, Yeah, because the first thing I think of
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: when you say that was, well, our subconscious, our collective
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: imagination has also produced so many very stern warnings about
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: AI and we're just like, hey, let's.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Do this, or like you look at where we are
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: now you look at an AI. Part of why the
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: AI equation is so interesting right now is this is
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: like whatever sixty years on from people really beginning to say, hey,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: the science is in and we're fucking this up. Yeah,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: and then there was massive propaganda that still runs rampant
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: to this day from people that are like, yeah, but
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: that will affect my bottom line, so we need to
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: like get you to not believe this shit. Right, The
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Church did this everywhere around magic, and it's uh, it's
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: just kind of a you got to look at that
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: and go, okay, is this a real thing? And to me,
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: when you're talking about kind of internet magic, you don't
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: know know what these people have actually done unless they're
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: kind of overtly out there for a long time. That's
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: a good point, right, And there's not a lot of
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: people that are that way, And so there's lots of
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: people that talk so much shit about stuff that I'm
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: just like, what are you even talking about? Like, there's
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: like I can find if I do the search, I
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: can find all the tiktoks and all of the blog
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: posts and all of the fucking live journals if I
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: can go back far enough where these ideas kind of
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: gained ground. But I don't know anybody that actually practices
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: seriously that has ever had these experiences. It happens all
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: the time. It's like, seriously, dude, come.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: On, that's that's even like I hate to say, like
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: even because of me being when I originally started podcasting,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: it was much more in the conspiracy community. The idea
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: of what they think that we must do in our
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: house is like absurd, absurd.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just like, yeah, my favorite genre of YouTube,
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: not my favorite one. What I'm always looking for is
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: the the X you know X Satanist X, which turned
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: Christian exposes everything, right, and they're just they're just talking clearly,
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: they've never engaged.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, I did a thousand abortions.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: From Yeah, I have a great story for that, you
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: guys would appreciate. So back in the early nineties, this
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: was like for me when I was kind of co
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: running the Temple of Psychic Youth topin NorCal kind of
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: office or access plight they called him. With my friend
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Mark and some other folks, there was this evangelical dude
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: that was present that his whole shtick was he was
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: God's g I, and so he would go into different
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: places to do battle with the forces of darkness, right,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: and so the he was coming to San Francisco to
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: have like this big rally in one of the kind
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: of downtown you know venues that you could put a
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: couple thousand people in. I don't remember which one, and
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: he was gonna exercise San Francisco of the demons of
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: homosexuality and basically kind of you know, demonology, paganism and.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: All that shit. Did this make the news?
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was all over the news, and I.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Was gonna say, I think I remember this next I
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: remember getting some silly shit like down my g nice try.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: And so he is coming and there is this big
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: fucking shit storm, and it's you have the queer community
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: up in arms about this, and they're going to go
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: protest this thing. And you have the pagan community up
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: in arms and protest this thing. And I, who especially
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: at like twenty three, am like pretty bunch of shit
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: disturber and like, why are you all throwing the fucking
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Levey and all the Satanists under the bus, which is
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: kind of what everybody kept doing. Not everybody put a
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: number of these things in the You would get public
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: statements of like, look but we aren't the Statanists. You know,
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: that's that black house up on California, But we aren't them.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: We are at the Temple of Fatter any of that.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: And they were all silent about the whole thing. You know,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: the Satanists were all silent about it and.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: They're throwing them under the bus. That is funny. Come
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: on out, guys. Ins.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: So one of the day, one day, they're in the
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: local paper leading up to this, maybe like a week
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: or two weeks before, there is this witch who has
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: a magic shop, hasn't a culture shop in the city,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: saying like, I'm going to go to like go do
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: spiritual battle with the god guy guy right, And I'm like,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: I've never heard of that guy, and I've never heard
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: of that shop. I think this is bullshit. So one
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: of my friends from the temple, her and I went
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: over and walk in and it's like an almost empty space,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: like there's nothing, like it was rented for this purpose, right,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: with a few props. It's human bason, And so we
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: come in and start asking this guy questions and he
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: gets really uncomfortable, and so we just kind of laugh
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: at him and leave and we walk out and we're like,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: that's it. That guy's gonna fucking convert at this event,
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Like this is a shtick. This is a straight up
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: con job done on a really large scale. So we
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: decide that we're going to go be the shit disturbers
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: for everybody, and so we generate a fake Satanic organization
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: to the world Satanic Liberation with like ridiculous propaganda. It's
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: like really brief. It's like this blood red sheet of
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: paper with like black print on it and you know,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: great graphics, and it's done as this like kind of
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: slah militant fucking California, bloodthirsty Satanists thing with that quote
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: from de Grimston from the process at the end, you know,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: drain the dregs and leave not a drop in the
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: glass at the bottom of the thing. And so we
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: didn't go to this thing. A bunch of us. Everybody's
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: like dressed to the nines and they're best black and
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: looking sexy, and about fifteen of us go to this
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: thing and start handing these things out to everybody and
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: fucking being like we are gonna be the sexiest people
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: here and we're going to stand up for the Satanists.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: All as a joke. It's entirely a joke. None of
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: us give a fuck. So everybody does this and then
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: it actually is time to go in, and I think
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: only me and my girlfriend maybe one other person were
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: like everybody else like I can't go listen to this guy,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, no, I want to go see if
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: this guy converts, you know, because I'm sure of it.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: And he did and he is still at least I
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: forgot who all their names, but like ten years ago
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: I checked and he was still on the circuit of
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: the evangelicals coming to speak about how he was saved
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: by this guy from his horrible occult past which never existed.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, and now bring that into YouTube in
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: the internet age. And how seriously should you take this ship?
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: You should at all?
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, at all?
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: There is.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: There was an episode of it was Tucker Carlson talking
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: to like a demonology guy just having a few months ago,
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: and I remember hearing about this is gonna happen. I'm like,
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: oh my god, I'm gonna get popcorn. This is gonna
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: be fuckings gonna be the most pretend conversation that ever happened. Right,
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: It's like two massive liars lying to each other and
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: agreeing with each other's lies, with millions of people watching
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: going oh my god, that's oh my you know. I mean,
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: I'm sure all the evangelicals who are watching this think
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: it's absolutely the gospel truth, and it's just just fuck,
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: it's pretending, making ship up. You know, Oh my god,
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: it was yeah, unreal said.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Because it's like, and I know somebody just converted publicly,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: there's a big ship storm because some internet internet astrologer
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: or tro reader just recently converted. And it's funny because
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: it's like I told, I started telling people like when
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Trump was reelected and when they brought in the vote
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: in particular respot into uh uh the organization that was
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: clear they were going to go super Christian nationalists. I'm like,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: watch all the people switch teams.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: And some of those may be legit because it does happen,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: but look at that and see if you smell the
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: grift behind it, because there's going to be a lot
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: of that, because it's like you were the people that
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: were the most they viewed as the most viable that
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: they could take for some money because fucking you know,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: WU people pretty open to bullshit. And then they went, ah,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: but now I have the credibility of the former WU
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: person to get and fucking grift real hard on the evangelicals.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: I'm in on that because that's good money. And I'm
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: not saying that that's the case with this woman. I
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: don't know anything.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: I've heard a few people give that theory though. They're
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: even saying she was too in depth in it. Anyway,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: it's very scratched the surface. Yeah, that is interesting. I
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: saw a lot of people complaining. I was like, Yo,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: you should be happy. That's like McDonald's closing down, and
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Burger King would be happy they can get their customers now.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Oh that lady, I'm sure had a bunch of suckers
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: paying the money. Now they're all available for you to
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: go after.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: No.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: But uh, yeah, no, I had heard the same thing
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: that you had said. And I do think not any
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: study specific is coming to mind a little bit more
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: in the conspiracy community, but not so much of the
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: magical community that I don't know of or talk to.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: But there is. I always say, you really don't know myself,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: including you don't know what I do once I shut
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: this camera.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Off, absolutely exactly.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: You have zero clue the hell I actually am. I'll
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: be totally honest with you. I really don't know who
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: the people are on my show. We get along, but
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: sorry could tell you I'm not asking this kid twenty
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: questions about his personal life.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to do this in the Patriot group
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: that I have on the Discord server, it's periodically remind
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: people and it's kind of in the un ramping now, like, Hey,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: I can't vouch for any of these people. Like my
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: girlfriend's on there, I can vouch for her. There's another
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: five people out of the six hundred people on there
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: that I can vouch for this because know them. I
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: don't know, but I actually do know them. And it's
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: also funny because it's it's when we get into kind
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: of the like teaching the courses or what's in the books,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: periodically it becomes really clear that people are like, ah,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: this is their vision is I'm doing these things exactly
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: that way, which is totally not real. It's like, no,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: these are the things that I know gets you to
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: where I think it would be helpful for you to
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: get to and for and I'm probably doing something way
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: different by now.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: So let me this is an idea that I was
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: talking about today and about evolving practices and the importance
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: of evolving your practice because one of the things that
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: seems very very evident to me, and this you can
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: even you know, the thing about talking about scientific studies
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: of magic is like someone's gonna say that's bunk, and
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: that's fine whatever, But it seems very evident to me
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: that your level of excitement versus boredom is incredibly important
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: to the potency of the magic that you're doing. And
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: so if you do the same ritual over and over
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: and over, and if you're like me at all and
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: you get bored easily, then you ritual that was once
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: very very effective can become completely non effective because of
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: your boredom. About it, not that the mechanism no longer works,
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: it's just that like that excitement and curiosity in that
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: sense of like a mystery and wonder, all of that
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: makes your magic work so much better. And so you know,
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: to constantly be changing up the way you do things
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: can be really beneficial to getting results.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think there's a there's there's a distinction.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: So I'm I'm gonna you're gonna get a lot of
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: this probably here just because of what I'm doing with
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: most of my time. But uh so, the course that
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: I'm teaching is called building a practice, and it's explicitly practices.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: There's no kind of ritual or spell work in the
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: sense of I'm doing this to get this. It's not
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: about that these are like underlying practices, right, and it's
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: very funny because that's where that flips, because I do
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: agree with you. You got to be into what you're
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: doing or it doesn't make sense. You know, that's not
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: gonna work. But what I do see and another side
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: effect of so much information is people don't necessarily give
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: themselves the time with those actual practices, not spells, to
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: get through the phase of this is new. It's hard.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: I have to think about it a lot too. It
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: becomes no, it's really cool, and maybe I get some
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: cool effects off of it too. Now it's boring, and
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: then now I kind of hate it. And anybody that's
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: kind of done these kind of practices, whether that's meditation
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: or many different things that are outside of kind of
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: the spiritual realm, it's after that that you figure out
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: what they really do. And that's a big piece that's
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: also missing in the modern age. You know, it's a
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: really interesting thing. So it's like, no, like, maybe give
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: that another few months of doing it every day and
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: then see what you think, because you're probably dropping it
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: too soon. But at the same side, there's that other piece,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: which is also if it's clearly doing something fucked up,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: drop it, get away from it, find something else. There's
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: many choices, and really, anybody that I think that's kind
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: of in the position of talking about it should be
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: able to help you find it. It shouldn't be. You know,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: sometimes we're wired so differently. There's a lot of folks
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: that come into my zone that it becomes clear that
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: or neurologically and kind of spiritually running on different tracks,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: and it gets to the place where you go like,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: I can't really help you because what you are kind
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: of wound into. I can't. I can't go there. It
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: doesn't make any sense to me.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: And if you had to say, like as a weird
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: thought experiment, like if you had to pick one thing
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: that is like the absolute core of your entire magical
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: thinking system pieces everything, like what's the centerpiece for you?
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: It's all relationship based. Yeah, Everything else is to facilitate.
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: That relationship to I mean, this is the cooling My
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: animism is like, well, relationship is all there is, all
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: there is.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: And so instead of it goes back to what we're
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: talking about before, like and this is kind of why
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: I lean so hard on the practice piece and everything
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: that I do is that's the shit that will change
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: you in ways that might open doors for you to
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: kind of figure out who hangs around with you and
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: who likes you and who you like. And you know,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: another thing that we see is this kind of because
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: there's so many options now so easily available by asking
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: your phone, you know, hey, what spirit does this? It
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: sends people further afield all the time instead of going like, hey,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: you have some people around you, because everybody does. Can
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: you build engagement with them and then ask them and
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: in my experience, when they can't help, they'll guide you
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: to things that can. But they'll do that very surgically
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: precision wise compared to like at let's ask chat GPT,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: what the fuck is up? Who I should pray to
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: for this?
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: So yeah, absolutely, I think so many people are so
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: quick to run to, you know, these very well known
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: spirits when it's entirely possible that the spirit of your
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: you know, distant cousin Joe is hanging around and could
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: help you significantly more than you know, the spirit with
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: the name that's recognizable.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: And it's also really interesting because you also, to me,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: one of the things that I find really fascinating is
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: where people go for specific things because I'm totally in
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: agreement with you like like your ancestors, and you can
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: just ignore or do some other things to make them
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: not be a problem with the ones that were really
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: shitty tend to be the fantastic at base level material stuff.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: In many situations now you can hit problems because they
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: don't necessarily drop all of their bullshit, and so the
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: ancestors are not a super smooth ride for everybody initially
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: at least, but like, yeah, if your ancestors were good
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: people and were sound, and you know, we're able to
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: have good, stable lives, they're probably good at helping you
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: do that too. Whereas you bring this to some underworld
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: deity because you think it's got tons of power, It's like,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know that Heckity gives a fuck about whether
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: you have a nice house, right, Like, I'm not seeing
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: that relation, even though I fucking love her. You know,
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: she's really into some shit that I'm into, and it's great,
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: but that's not where I'm going, you know.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting, and so so Heckity and So in
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: particular are two s very that I.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Think are.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: There to be guides and teachers, and it seems that
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: they they're very enthusiastic about doing this, but I would
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: not ever think to ask any either of them for
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: like give me stuff I did help me acquire that
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: they can't. I just I would never it would never
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: even occur to me to to ask them for that.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: They're more to me. These are guides that are there
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: to tell you how, when when you fuck up, and
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: how and when and where you can do better.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: And I think like some of this stuff for me
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: is because I'm a fantasic, right, I can't have no
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: inner really, I can't visualize that.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I know what that is, like the way
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: there I can visually just but like not not.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Well, I can't imagine how magic is like practicing certain
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: things without that that's going to be.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: So it's well, it's it's it's actually really interesting because
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: it's like if you if you are fully a fantasic,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: at least in my case, you bang your head against
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: the wall for many many years until you figure out
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: it's just not happening, Like no, after this many years
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: of trying this many systems to change this, it's probably
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: not changing. And it's only about ten or twelve years
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: ago that kind of a fantasia was named, I think,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: and it's more prevalent than people think. It's not super prevalent.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Somewhere between one and twenty and one in fifty people
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: are totally a fantasic, and so it's very much a spectrum,
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: and I'm probably on that bottom five percent where it's
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: really useless to even try. And so you just have
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: to look at all that stuff and go, ah, this
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: entire system was developed by somebody who was hyperfantasic, and
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: they're not going to be able to help me because
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: they've never had to figure out all the stuff that
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: I have to figure out to work. And so really
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: it's funny when you look at my stuff, Like in
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: the course, some of the materials that I've shared are
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: like just a description of the words you say and
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: the physical acts and like what you should be thinking about.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: But there's no suggestion of visualization because I've learned how
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: to work without it. And it's very funny to me
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: because people will periodically going, well, I'm doing this visualization
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: of this, and it's like, oh, that's cool, yeah, whatever,
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: Like it doesn't mean anything to me. It's it's uh,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: it's it's useful for them, but I can't touch it.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: And so but I don't even remember where we got
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: started with that one, but it's just interesting. It's like
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: the neural, the neurological piece is the largest piece of
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: finding what works for you, I think is you have
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: to find a guidance that actually is in aligned with
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: what you are literally capable of doing, not what you
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: could in a perfect world learn how to do. And
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: so that's a that's a big thing. And as soon
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: as I figured out that shit, I was like, ah,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: ninety percent of magical materials are towards people who can visualize.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: What do you do if you can't? And had to
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: work that out.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: Well, So I mean, like I said, I'm not good
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: at visualizing it. I can do it a little bit,
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: but for me, I always wonder what people who are
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: who can visualize very well, what that experience is like.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: But I look at it as the visualization is actually
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: this is just again like I don't know, but actually
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: there to help you generate the feeling, and the feeling
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: is actually what really matters, right at least that's how
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: it works out for me because I'm I can't visualize
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: very well, but if I can feel, if I can
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: generate the emotional resonance with what is I want to accomplish,
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: Then that becomes very very powerful, and to me, the
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: visualization is like just a bridgeway to getting to the
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: feeling right.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: And so for me what it is is I focus
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: primarily on bodily sensation and on kind of imagined felt sense,
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: so imagine to bodily sensation. And also I figured out
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: that it's really interesting that the ability to phrase a
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: sentence about something is as imaginable as generating an image.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: And so one of the things that I teach that
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: helps a fuck ton of people that are in my
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: boat is to actually literally talk yourself through stuff, and
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: to train yourself to talk through all of your work,
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: so that if you are, say imagining that you're supposed
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: to visualize yourself entering into a cave, you do it
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: as if you're writing a story, like, Okay, I'm walking in,
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: I'm seeing this, this is to the left, this is
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: to the right, and it feels like you're making it
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: all up, because all of it, we're making it all up.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: In this sense, it's all translation. But what happens is
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: that process for most people eventually kind of falls away
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: and they realize that they know they're in this space,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: and they know where everything is, but they still can't
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: see any of it. It's just an odd little translation thing.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: But it's totally workable. It's not a big deal.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I And I wonder I also, this is something
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: that is such a dumb thing. But I think about
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: it all the time. Is what would it be like
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: to be blind and to want to visualize?
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: It's all just description and so and even your your
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: visual like what you see and what I see aren't
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: the same. I of course they're remarkably similar. I'm not
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: saying they're totally different, right, fun if they were, but
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: I think they're remarkably similar, but they're not the same.
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: And really, your visual experience is a kind of language.
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: It is an interpretation. It's like cartoon that your brain
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: makes up to give you, like this this visual image
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: of what is otherwise description. Right, Well, in terms we
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: kind of put it, really well says the reality doesn't
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: exist except as an object of description.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so that's an interesting way to put it.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: And kind of where I think about it is that
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: and how I talk about it is everything is translated.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Everything that we experience is a translation, and so I
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: can use the visual translation if that's available to me, right,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: But I can also use all these other kind of
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: internal senses, and some of those are not definable.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: You know, we have kind of these terms even for
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: the various Claire's Claire audience, Clare sentients and all that stuff,
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: and those are still super insufficient in a lot of ways.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: It's like, you know, I get most of my spirit
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: communications in two ways now, and this is after a
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: long time in this isn't where it used to be
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: at all. And the first is that I just know stuff.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: And this is very common. Like I will be like
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: I'll have a question, I'll throw it out in the world,
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: and sometime later it almost never happens immediately. I'll be
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: walking down the street and it'll be like boom, oh,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: I have the answer to that, and it's not even
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: really accessible to me until I start talking or I
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: start writing. And so the same thing. It's like, well,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: part of why I do so much interface with people
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: on the discord and why I love podcasts and all
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: that stuff is because it brings stuff out that wouldn't
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: come out otherwise, which I think ties back into that
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: relation thing that it's human relationships. You know, we're spirits.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: We're just embodied currently embodied, you know, land spirits, the
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: spirits of that were never incarnate or never had a
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: physicality in the way that we consider it. All this
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: stuff's available, and also everybody's going to have a different
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: experience with it, Like I think as much as I
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: kind of fought it, like if I have a function here,
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: it's to teach this stuff. And so a lot of
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: what happens, if not most of it happens because of that.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: And the more I've leaned into that, even though it's
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: uncomfortable for me as kind of an identity because I'm
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: not into that whole scene really as an identity, the
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: more open it's gotten, and it's now to the point
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: where the peeps are like, we'll look you up with
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: everything that you need if you just keep doing this.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: This is not everything I want, but everything I need.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: They're like, we'll cover the basis if you do this consistently.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: M Yeah, Zindra, that's a great question. And the only
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: thing that I can say is why I got How
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: I got to where I am now came about due
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: to a breakdown that was really a complete nervous system
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: fucking meltdown that happened a few years ago. I guess
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: I came out of it about started coming out of
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: it about three years ago. It happened right after a
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: published change relling is when it reached its worst point.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: That's why I disappeared offline. I went heavy into somatic
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: based stuff. I found some material from a woman named
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: Suki Baxter on YouTube and I've taken one of her
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: courses and she helped me with that quite a lot.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: And to me, that's kind of the base practice for
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: anybody that's got that is just to figure out what's
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: how close to kind of a non blowing up state
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: can you get to? And like, you don't have to
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: get all the way there, you have to get little
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: moments of traction. And that's what happened, and that's how
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: I got out of that breakdown. Was I was kind
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: of guided to some things. If you go to to
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: my patreon and just become a free member there, you
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: don't have to join. One of the recent posts you'll
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: see is a compendium of six what I call energy workings,
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: and these are kind of sematic trans induction energy work
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: sometimes offering practices and see how those work for you.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: And you know those like I said, you don't have
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: to join the paid part of the Patreon. You can
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: just check them out there out there. They're all about
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: a half hour long, and don't use them when you're
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: driving because they are pretty trancy. And see what that does.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: And if it does, that may kind of give you
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: some pointers as to things that will help. And they're
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: all really similar to you because structurally, I've kind of
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: got a set of patterns that seems to work for
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of people. And so play with the different ones,
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Like some of them are really spacey and some of
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: them are a little clearer energy wise, but they do
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: follow really similar patterns. And there may be some things
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: in there that you can snag and definitely check out
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Suki's work. It's s u k i e. Last name Baxter. Uh.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: There's in particular a thing on polyvagel ear massage that
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: is one of the biggest kind of fucking life changing
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: things I ever found to get myself regulated.
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: Interesting, that's fascinating. I've never I've never gotten into any
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: of the somatic stuff, like I don't I know very
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: little about a very little experience with it.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's saved my life. I spent two years with
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: a kind of body based therapist where it was half
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: of it was on the table. That's so cool, and
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: it coupled that and then the other stuff that I
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: found and kind of figured out and worked into other
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: things that I knew how to do already, those who
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: have been the biggest skill upgrades that I've ever had, Uh,
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: not all of the Unfortunately, it's one of those things
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: like magic, where you don't know what you get, so
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: you just kind of try it because there's a lot
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: of people who are kind of just hopped on the
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: keyword of that when it became a big keyword. But
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of really good stuff in there, and
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: it's and if the stuff that I suggest doesn't work,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of ways into it. It's it's not
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: a it's not a small field, really.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: No, none of this is. That's the crazy thing too
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: about this entire the entire like field that is on
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: the umbrella of metaphysics is that it's it's so expansive
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: no one could ever you cannot. It's like music, like
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: no one can just master music in its entirety in
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: one time, be completely impossible, And the same is true
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: with metaphysics. And yeah, so we have to like each
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: specialize where we where we feel drawn to what feels
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: correct to us. But to try and like get to
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: every thing, it's such an impossible task.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: One thing I did want to ask you, I did
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: have something to do with I think six ways. Yeah,
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: when you talk about the field, what does that mean
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: to you? And I guess, like what I guess if
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: I remember correctly, I think there was like the point
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: of kind of like becoming an inter being or connecting
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: with it? What does that mean? As well?
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: So as somebody who's not very theistic, like I view
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: the deities as just kind of big spirits with cults,
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: and my people screed. They gave me that language when
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: I asked them recently, like what's the deal with the deities?
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: And they're like, they're just spirits with cults. I don't
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: have the kind of, uh, what most people when they
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: talk about kind of like religious reverence to kind of
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: like big god concepts, whether that's the goddess or whether
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: that's you know, sky gods or whatever. I don't really
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: have that inclination, and so I can't use that language
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: to describe what I think is going on in the world,
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: or how I perceive the world, and how I began
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: thinking about animism when I first started was as a
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: biological view. So you can even you can probably find
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: old things on me online somewhere talking about biological animism
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: a bit. And what I came the best conception I
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: could see of kind of the big world is that
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: the field is the organism that we all exist as
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: components of this larger organism and were like cells within
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: that body. Right, And so the field is everything is
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: all of manifest and unmanifest reality. It's all possibility, right.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: And if we take that view, and we take that
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: we're in there, it means that we have the ability
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: to tap into the unmanifest stuff as well as the
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: manifest stuff, because part of that is what we are.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: There are aspects of us that are unmanifest. Even if
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: we think about this in a purely biological sense, like
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: gene expression, right, there's switches that can trip in us
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: biologically that completely change who we are. We see this
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: as far as brain chemistry, right, we can do a
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: couple things to anybody's brain chemistry and they become a
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: different person. Right. That's unmanifest reality of who you are, right,
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: it's still part of you. It's available, and so to me,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: especially when I was initially kind of talking about this
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: animism early on, as I kind of came to that
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: or maybe in twenty twelve, that was how I began
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: thinking about it, it was like, okay, give me a frame
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: where I can start situating this right. And so it
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: also ties into kind of like ideas that are kind
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: of popularized by ticknot Hahn of inter being right, that
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: everything in the universe inter is right, nothing is alone,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: and this is another core component of animism, like I
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: can't do something that doesn't affect everything else. Most of
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: that is not ever going to be noticeable. I'm not
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: going to have much control over most of it, but
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: there's no way for that not to be true in
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: this totally interdependent system that we're parts of. And to me,
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: I love that idea because it means that these things
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: aren't outside of us. Really they aren't about us either,
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: which both of those things are really freeing to me.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: If I go okay, yeah, it's like I can't help
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: but be agentic, even if I try to escape that,
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: I have causal effects, even if I don't understand the
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: mechanism of those chains, so I might as well get involved.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: Like a lot of people hit that and go super nehilistic,
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: or they go like, how do I ever figure it out?
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: Instead of going like it's already happening, so I better
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: see if I can get good at it.
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: Yep, yep, I totally agree. I think that you know
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: when okay, So, the way I always describe it, it's
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: like the idea of being a drop of water in
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: the ocean, right, that there's a drop of water in
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: the ocean. They're the same thing, but they're separate. There's
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: the individual drop, and then there's the entire the entirety
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: of it all. But you can't if you remove the drop,
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: you change the entire ocean, right, And you can't talk
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: about with the drop really without talking about the entire ocean.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: And I think that's that's the way the universe is,
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: And even if there's a multiverse, that's the way the
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: multiverse is, right. I don't know. It just seems like
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: this core understanding that everything is connected to everything else
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: is at the heart of pretty much every mystery tradition, right.
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: And then from that mechanical point of view, I always
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: look at that and say Okay, So like this is
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: this is a kind of description of empathy, which I
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: think is kind of the point of not everything, but
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: like what makes us different, what makes us human, is
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: like this vast capacity for introspection and empathy that we
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: have and the understanding that everything affects everything else. And
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: so yeah, get involved. I think that's wonderful advice. It's like,
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: if everything you do affect something, why not do your
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: very best to you know, have some agency in that
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: if you can, like the tiny amount that we can,
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: right at least try.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly, you know. And I also think one of
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: the things that I ways that I talk about animism
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: to you, and like the book that I'm writing that's
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: in editing is really about it's a kind of an
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: I don't like the term because it's not really correct,
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: but it's I don't know anyway else to put it. Really,
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: it's kind of an argument between or about how animism
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: is the antidote to what I call empire. Right, an
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: empire is a vast range of things, and I view
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: empire as kind of a spirit pathology. It's not I'm
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: not talking about the state. I'm talking about the state.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about spousal abuse, I'm talking about sexual assault,
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about emotional abuse. I'm talking about extractive capitalism.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about a random generation of borders, of weaponizing,
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: of wealth, inequality. All of these things I umbrella under
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: the term empire, right, And how I think that works
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: is that empire is the impulse that happens to everybody
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: to some degree in different places, I think, but it
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: be gooes pathological for a chunk of the population that says, hey,
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: I am different enough from that that that thing is
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: an object now, and animism says no, right, everything is
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: being and you don't you might have to discern between
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: levels of being this and what that means to you,
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: but you don't get to say that thing isn't that,
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: that thing's just object. And so it's a very it
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: forces an ethical conversation continuously, right. And so with that
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: then we also look at and this is just kind
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: of based on vast historical human perspectives as well as
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: things that I picked up from different indigenous cultures. And
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: I'm really careful not to reference most of the indigenous
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: stuff because I think that that's it's almost unrelated, like
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: we're too far away from that to fucking touch it,
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: and so I try to like learn what I can
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: from it, but then bring it into something that I
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: can actually operate with, which my basis is magic, but
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: it's influenced by those ideas as I understand them, and
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: is like, so, I've got dinosaur in me, right, I've
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: got dinosaur in me because we breathe the same air.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: I've got dinosaur in me because we've been recycling fats
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: and proteins for as long as there's been animal life
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: on the earth. I've got dinosaur in me because some
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: of those minerals impacted me. I got dinosaur in me
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: because we've been burning fossil fuels for so long that
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: I've got fucking probably dinosaur toxic overload going on, you know.
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: And so that is still present with me. The past
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: is present in me. The past is present in all
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: of us, all the other fucking species. I was talking
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: to somebody about this the other day in these terms,
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: I'm like, like I was joking, I have the complete
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: fixation about squirrels. I super love squirrels, and practically I'm like, Okay,
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: that's really interesting because it's like some of my ancestors
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: were functionally that right in this context, there's no way
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean that I that I evolved from a squirrel.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: But how do we make our real decision when we
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: all fucking theoretically, you know, we're or we're once you know,
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: single cell organisms that began dividing in the ocean that
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: eventually turned into fish that fucking figured out how to walk. Right,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: at some point, we're all the same thing. And when
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: you accept that, to me, it just shuts down all
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: sorts of activities as far as things you don't get
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: to think about. This is what I love about animism,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: and is really is you go, Okay, if I make
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: a distinction between the tree and the squirrel and that person,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: that's a distinction I'm making. Yeah, it's not necessarily sound. Uh,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's a it's a thing I've done. It's
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: a it's a it's a game that I've I've I've
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: chosen to engage in. And so it just shifts things
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: around a lot. Uh And and I think for me
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: it's been an incredibly helpful way to shift things around
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: because then I'm like, wait a second. So there's been
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: a billion fucking billions and billions obviously of justus humans
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: who are dead here, and those energies still are present.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: They're available. There are a fucking gazillion other spirits there
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: are present, and they're available, and not in the sense
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: that I need to go and find them and find
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: their name in a book and then conjure them. I
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: can begin a set of practices that begins to kind
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: of open my house in a controlled way to them
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: and going, hey, this is the house rules. Anybody that
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: wants to play according to those house rules. We have
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: treats here, and we have projects, and let's do it.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: You know, that's very very cool. I love everything you
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: just said so much. The thing that you call empire,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: I call reptilian consciousness. It's like the animal part of
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: you that is not that seeks to dominate rather than
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: be one with right your environment, with everyone else, with
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: everything else. And I think of it as as just
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: like you were saying, like as you were talking about
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: you've got dinosaur and you like, we all have parts
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: of our our brain that evolved millions of years ago
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: in a situation where it's you know, constant just survival
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: and competition. And you know, my theory, one of my
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: my ideas not even theory, but like, my belief about
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: consciousness is that it is evolving towards greater levels of
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: empathy and compassion and away from you know that that
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: need to dominate, right, but that's still in us. And
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: this this the whole idea of the battle between good
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: and evil? To me is which which direction do you
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: want to go? Within your own mind? You move towards
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: greater levels of empathy and capacitors, do more towards levels
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: of of dominance and control. Both are there. Both are
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: options that are available within your mind, right within your
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: brain structure, within the way that you can move through
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: the world, and you know where, ultimately, where do you
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: want to go?
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know it's like it's I know you'll get this,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: but just to be clear for anybody listening, like I
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: totally get kind of the benefit of that perspective and
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: that it's the one that makes sense to you. But
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: I come at it from a totally different viewpoint. And
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: some of this is because I was very early on
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: influenced by Pyotr Kropotkin's mutual aid, which is really a
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: refutation of the ideas that everything was competitive in nature,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: basically saying like this, happens interspecies between certain species, but
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: it doesn't really happen within most species that this was
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: an error in judgment, right, And so that influence has
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: always been really big on me. And so what I
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: think in what the allies and some of the peeps.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: So the allies to me are like my are a
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: very small group that tell me that they came into
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: this existence with me or this kind of manifestation with me,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: and they will exit with me. So you don't call
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: in your allies, you don't find them, you don't get
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: new ones in this specific sense. They're they're they're they're
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: they're functionally a part of you. And frequently you'll you'll
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: hear me or see me talking about we, and this
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: is because it's that, you know, it's like I still
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: get caught in believing that I'm just a solo little
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: person here, but I know that's really not real, you know.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: And what they say is that there's always been some
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: folks that that catch that drive to compete and to dominate,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: and that in deep history, when we were in much
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: smaller groups, this was very recognized and dealt with, right, uh.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: And so it would be you know, if we try
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: and use kind of we're going to just use kind
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: of a generic imagining of a of a much earlier
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: indigenous past for whoever this person is. We're talking about.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: The folks whose job it was to keep track of
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: that ship would be like, dude, Larry is off the
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: fucking chain and it's going to fucking fuck shit up
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: so bad. We got to get Larry back. And they
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: would basically go and to send out a crew of
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: people who would go, hey, Larry, you're coming with us.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: And if Larry didn't want to come with you, Larry
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: didn't have a choice. This is what some spirits I
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: talk about basically told me this story a million times
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: for about two years, in different forms, and they would
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: be brought in and there would be ceremonies done to
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: kind of clear them of this kind of pathology because
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: they were they recognized it. It's like, you're gonna fuck
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: shit up, and it happens. People get really wound up
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: in their heads and start to think, Hey, I could
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: own that person, or I could take whatever I wanted.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: But I don't believe this is normal. I believe that
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: it's normal as an impulse, but I don't believe that culturally. Yeah,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: this was this was a historical truth at all. I
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: don't think it's who we are. I think it's one
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: way we can be.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a it's a mode of being that's available,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: but it's not the one that's natural. It's not what
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: we should be moving forward. It's not beneficial to anyone.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: Right that the understanding that you are part of a
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: network and a group is so number one, is so
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: plainly obvious. Right, But there's this, But this philosophy continues
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: to manifest itself. And it's one of the things that
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna be recording a video about this later today.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: This is and I'm careful, I want to be careful
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: with these words. I'm not trying to insult, you know,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: millions of people or anything like that. But the extreme
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: manifestations of what is known as the Left hand Path philosophy, right,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: which is of the self and individualism and me me,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: you know, like I'm not there. Looks hundreds of thousands
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: of Left hand Path practitioners are just out there trying
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: to like improve themselves. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: But an extreme manifestation of that philosophy, which is like
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: what you see with the on nine A for example, Right,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: is this idea that you must become separate, to individuate,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: to to be to dominate the group. Right, it's it's
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: the law of the jungle. Might makes right to mentality,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: you know, And and I wonder where it comes from.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: And you know, I look around it like there are
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: other species that can have a mentality like that, and
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: that mentality within that species is good for the overall
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: system of planet Earth. Right, there have to be predators,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: but we don't have to be predators in that sense.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: We don't be predatory towards each other. And I think
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: that one of the things that fox humans up is
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: that we have such a degree of intelligence and free
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: will that we're just not going to do what's good
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: for us all. I'm gonna do the other thing, you know.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: And I've met people like this who who are good people,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: but still have this kind of mentality of like, if
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: you tell me what's good for me, I'm absolutely not
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 3: going to do it.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: Well, this is, you know, functionally. I think this is
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: because we've basically lost what would make one indigenous. The
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: vast majority of us have, which is this kind of
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: like that your life experience is entirely built within endless, endless,
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: endless kind of law and law that are rooted to place,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: that are rooted to thousands of years in place, and
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: learning what works in that space, what spirits are in
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: that space, which ones you need to propitiate, which ones
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: are allies and as we kind of and this is
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: what the function of empire was began to split us
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: off from that connection. It does it everywhere, It drives
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: wedges between us and reality, is how I think about it.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: As soon as that's happened, you're kind of fucked. And
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: so to me, this is all a process of what
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: I do is kind of in part trying to do
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: a little tiny, tiny drop in the bucket to kind
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: of start to swing things different direction. Yeah, because I
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: think we're in, you know, a mass probably one hundred
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: or more generation process of digging out of this hole.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: Uh you know, at least that's the that's the super
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: super conservative estimate, you know, or happy estimate. I don't
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: think that that's probably real, And I think it's fascinating.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: It's like the deal is is And this is again
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: the spirits that I call the queens, who uh are
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: the ones who really kind of brought the constant pressure
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: of the empire stuff into my world. It had always
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: been things that I thought about, but they were the
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: ones like, no, you're talking about it. Uh. What they
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: say is that in functional society is what what occurs
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: is like a form of a radical intolerance. And this
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: is that there's ship that's fine to do, even if
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: it's kind of stupid and it doesn't serve you. But
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: as soon as you begin doing damage to the land base,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: to the actual society and begin to make that society
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: non functional, it has to stop. And functionally, what I
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: call empire in its more advanced forms is like, how
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: do we get people to concede all of that ground
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: everywhere so that they accept that, yeah, the fact that
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: I'm going to fucking build eight million data centers for
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: no real reason except I think it's fun and I
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: think it'll make me some fucking money. And it's beyond
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: though nobody wants it, we can see the outcome.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: To put nobody wants some things.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and it's like and if we had
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: a functional societciety, that would be instantly shut down like
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: those people. Yes, you look at somebody like Elon Musk
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: or Peter Teal or these guys, they would have been
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: totally stripped of all power. In a functional society.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: Yea, he should never even have gotten to where they are.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: Never ever, ever, ever, ever ever should we allow this.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: But we glorified to an extent where it's like, dude,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: like tech bros worship these motherfuckers and they are just
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: robbing the world and they are don't get me start,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: all right, So it's interesting.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: So the queens, and the queens were the ones who
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: basically came in and said, yeah, like, view all of
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: this as a singular pathology scaled in different ways.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, and I think that that pathology is
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: something that we can we can single out and then
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: just like you were saying, and in a functional society,
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: we would single it out and say no, no, no, no,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: this is the wrong way this. We know where this leads.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: We've seen it over and over again. It's not good
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: for you, it's not good for anyone, and we gotta
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: shut down to that extent. Though at the same time,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: we don't want to homogenize society. We don't want to
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: tell people not to be individuals. But there's certain mentalities
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: in philosophies you know, sets of actions that we can
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: say like this is objectively bad for everyone, don't do it.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: And also I think there's a difference between being an
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: individual and what we conceive of as being an individual
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: in the modern West, totally right, Like like we all
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: said kind of early on, I don't know if it
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: was when we were recording or not. Like, none of
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: y'all know what I do in my house, right, Like
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: you can see some of my kitchen in my one
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: of my altars, you know, but you have no idea
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: if I'm, like, you know, smearing shit all over the
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: walls of my bedroom. And frankly, unless you fucking her
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: my upstairs neighbors, it doesn't Like if you knew, maybe
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: you don't want me bringing food to your pot luck, right,
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: But it's just not important, And this is not what
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: we're talking about, right, No, we're talking about something very different,
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: the idea that, as an individual, I think it's okay
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: to I don't know, fucking bulldoze eight million acres of
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: forest because I want the money out of the lumber.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: That knowing what we know about the reality of the
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: ecosystem is a hard No, that's not you expressing your individuality.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: That's me saying, Hey, that's you saying, Hey, guess what,
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: I'm going to come into your house and smear shit
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: all over your fucking walls. And I'm going to do
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: this to everybody, and I'm going to do it because
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: I've generated a legal system that protects me. I'm immune
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: from the consequences of my actions, which is really and
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: this is another thing that came from the queens was
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: I was asking them, like, how do we talk about
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: the elites in a way that isn't the way that
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: it's just all the conspiracy nonsense and all of the
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: pure like it's all about money, right, And they said
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: that what it is to be elite in our system
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: is to be immune from the consequences for your actions,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: which again coming for what we're talking about before isn't
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: really a thing, but it is a thing on a
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: on a human societal level if things are set up
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: in certain ways, you know.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: Right, And that's so that's we can never let the
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: system or we can never we already have it. But
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: you know, in an ideal functioning society, we would never
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: allow for these protections to exist either.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: To build layer after layer after layer after layer of
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 3: protection and propaganda and you know, laws that further enable
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 3: this group of people to keep doing what they're doing. Right,
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: So this is something that I you know, I hate
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: to burst everyone's bubble about this again, something I'm recording
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: on a video but later today. But everything that has
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: happened that even the worst things that are described in
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 3: the Epstein files have been going on for hundreds, if
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: not thousands of years. Jeffrey Epstein's Epstein is just a
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: guy that they caught facilitating these things that have been
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: happening NonStop since you know Samaria at the at least, you.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: Know, And it also allows people to ignore the way
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: more important reality that almost all of this abuse of
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: this type happens within the home. Yeah, it's parents, uncles,
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: brothers doing this in the home, like almost all of it.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: And so all of these attempts to and I'm not
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: fucking defending those guys at all, they should all fucking
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: burn as far as I'm concerned.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: But it's that pattern of consciousness that we have to do.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: But again, it realized that it's a distraction. You have
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: people who are on the internet fucking screaming about Epstein,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: who are raping their daughters. This is a fact.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well I was going to say, oh, they're hashtag
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: and save the children, thinking they're defeating child sex trafficking
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: with reposts when your neighbor's doing it to their kid.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, like you're making a queen come on. Yeah,
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: And this is where the queens come in and they say, no,
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: radical and tolerance, this shit that can't be allowed. And
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: so I do think we're you know, we're talking about
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: a massive, multi generational project to shift things. But I
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: think until I think it just has everybody's got to
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: figure out their piece and the thing. And because of
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: who I work with in this stuff, part of my
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: piece is addressing this stuff and not that I have
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: thus solution, but that we have to accept that there
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: is a solution. But that solution isn't a quick fix.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: It's like there's an entire change in the way we
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: do society, in the way we think about it, individuality,
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: in the way we think about freedom, blah blah blah
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: blah blah. Uh. And that's a huge fucking project, but
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: I think it's important. And so you know, my little
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: piece of it is I get to talk to magicians
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: about things that hopefully will uh, you know, begin to
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: shift somebody's thinking that then gets handed down, that then
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: gets handed down, that then gets handed down. Because we
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: got here incrementally, nothing really happened fast, and we're going
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: to have to take it. We're gonna have to kind
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: of get back to something that works incrementally as well.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think that there's that we're making progress,
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 3: and and here's my evidence for that. And maybe maybe
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 3: there's some naivity here, but I'm you couldn't pay me
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: any There's no amount of money that you could give
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 3: me that would cause me to hit my child. I'm
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 3: very much even in this because I got this shit
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 3: kicked at me when I was a kid, and I
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: won't do it. And the reason I got very angry
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: at my mother when my son was born because I
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 3: suddenly realized, oh my god, I could, I could never
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 3: do the things that were done to me. And I
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 3: think that that is a millennial trait. I think that
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 3: that is something that you're just like. I don't. None
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 3: of my friends hit their kids either, right, but like
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: our parents all kicked the shitt oune of us, and
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: their parents did it much worse to them. And so
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 3: I do see this sort of a line in the
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 3: sand being drawn where we're an entire generation, not the entirement, obviously,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 3: not that entire generation, but a large portion of a
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: generation is saying no, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: enact violence upon my child. And I do think that
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of rhetoric out there about like things
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 3: being hopeless, But I honestly think if we can raise
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: one generation of humans to just to not have had
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: so much violence visited upon them, that they will continue
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: that trend, and it will it will get better. And
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 3: so you know, I see the motion there, and.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: I'm with you. I'm not at all helpless. I don't think,
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: like I said, I don't think we get any any
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: quick fix. I don't think there's anything like that. But
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: I'm entirely hopeful. I think that, you know, one of
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: the things that I was going to say earlier is
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: I think that the difference what makes us special, because
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: you were kind of talking about what kind of some
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: of our cognitive stuff, is that combo of that cognitive
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: stuff and the opposable thumb makes us wildly dangerous in
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: a way that no other picture is. So instead of
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: that kind of dominionist kind of view of I am man,
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: I get to take it all. What it should do,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: is it, or what I think it has to do
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: is force like really comprehensive ethics, stewardship. It's that moves
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: into kinship, that moves into stewardship, and moves into this
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: thing that we know is present because it's still present
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: in many many societies. We just have to be in
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: working our way closer to that understanding that you don't
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: go back to what was you know, if giant comment
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: was the next election, like you know, the bumper stickers that.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 3: I really approve.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: I've always say, maybe we get to go back to
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: got to go back there, you know, like in November
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: or whatever. But barring that, it's a very big project.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 3: It is, it's a very big project.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: But I think that.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 3: I just so my again, my belief is just that
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 3: this is the natural progression of consciousness is towards greater
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: levels of empathy, but also that we have to we
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: have to consciously choose to perpetuate that also, and that's
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 3: part of the mechanism of what evolution, how evolution occurs,
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: is that there's a very heavy psychic component to it,
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 3: and the choices that we make and the views that
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: we develop. Like, you know, the biggest conundrum for me
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 3: is capitalism, right, because it's there's so many negatives and
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 3: there's but then there's also so much going on in
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 3: with socialism that doesn't work out. But like a lot
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 3: of that is because of capitalism, and it's like we
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 3: have to find this the correct balance between the group
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: and the individual, and that that right there, that that
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 3: finding the balance between the group and the individual is
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: such an important part of the human story and I
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: hope that we that we get it right in the end.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: No, I hear you on that. Yeah, it's interesting, interesting shit.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one thing I did want to make sure I
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: got into before we ended it. I did want to
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: get into, uh what is uh dirt sorcery to you?
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: Dirt sorcery is mostly uh it started as a joke,
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: and so I found the Temple Psychic Youth stuff and
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: it started that practice. And then when I was twenty,
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: so i'd been doing I'd kind of figured out some stuff,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: so I was doing magic, but I hadn't kind of
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: really gotten full full on into it. And when I
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: was twenty, I ended up joining the OTO and shortly
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: after I actually ended up joining the Table of Psychic Hue,
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: so I hadn't really connected with them. I just was
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: using the materials. And my own practice was very much
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: it still is, very much rooted and material based, so feathers,
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: rock stone, statues, objects. My work is very object based.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: But I was living and down the street or up
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: the street from Thalame Lodge of the Oto and that
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: I was a part of, and so I'd be at
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: Thlame Lodge all the fucking time. I hung out there continuously,
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: a ton of friends. It was great. But periodically somebody
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: would roll through that like just assumed that since I
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: was there that I was really into kind of Western
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: esotericism and heavily studied and all this stuff, and they
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: would start talking a bunch of nonsense to me. Everybody
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: that knew me in there was like, that's not his jam,
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, and yeah, so they would go for
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: a while and I would finally have to cut them
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: off because it's like, dude, it's not my jam, you know.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: And so I started telling people. I'd say, like, excellent,
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: you know, astrology, kabbala, fucking tesseracts, whatever. I'm mostly a
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: rocks and string kind of guy, because it was really literal.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: I'm like winding rocks, I'm stilizing rocks, I'm tying shit
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: to them. Making these natural fetishes and then working with
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: these things is pretty much how I worked magic, and
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: that eventually became what I started calling dirt sorcery. Really
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: is kind of a joke, but then I began, as
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: I kind of played with it, I began to really
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: like the term because it's about everything that we're talking
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: about here, that it's not trying to transcend to this place.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: It's like, we're made from dirt to dirt. We will return.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: It's not impure, we're not impere, we don't need to
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: be compure in some way, we don't need to transcend
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: to the physical. None of that shit's sound in my perspective,
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: And so the dirt sourcer is really is kind of
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: magic focused on that reality of being right here. It's
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: not trying to escape any of this stuff. It's really
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: wetting yourself in and going, yeah, I get that I'm
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: an animal. I get that I have, you know, a
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: big brain and opposable thumbs, but that don't really mean
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: shit in the bigs in the grander scheme, except that
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: I need to be more careful than other animals do. Uh,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: let's let's do this really well and whatever happens next
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: happens next. I love that.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hell yeah, that was really good. Thank you.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 3: You know, it's a weird thing for me because I
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 3: am Ceremonial magic is deeply unappealing to me. Magical theory,
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: the mechanics of magic, right, the the how does it
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: all work? The physics stuff. I adore that. I love it,
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 3: But then in my practice, I like things that are
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 3: real that that are you know, what you would call
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: dirt sorcery, just using the sympathetic resonance and feeling and
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 3: emotion and and what you have at hand and what's
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 3: what is a part of your natural environment.
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I totally get that. I'm like on the
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: other side, I like we were just talking about it
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: in the group because it's like I kind of and
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: one of the ways that I put it was that, like,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: I don't consider myself an occultist at all. It's not
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: I'm not interested in theory beyond what is necessary to
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: do work, and that is very little. And to me,
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: it's all related. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's you got
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: to have an idea of what my work. That's where
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: the theory side of it comes in, you know. In
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: one of the ways that I put that was that
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: for me. You know, there's some occultists are magicians or
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: what I my kind of preferred term at the moment
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: is people who are like practicing operative spirituality, right, spirituality
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: that requires you to actually get in there and do shit,
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: not the vague let's think WU thoughts, but like let's
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: do WU things. You know, there's a big difference. And
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: you know in most people who practice don't care about theory,
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: and in the modern world because again, if you love
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: talking and you love theory, there's tons of people to
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: talk about it with, and so it's what floods the thing.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: There's only so many different ways you can talk about
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: sympathetic magic and contagion and really basic kind of yeah,
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: like you can form relationship with spirits that are just around.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, I talk about it all the fucking time,
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: but you know, it's my job. And so it looks
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: like kind of the vast swath of all this information
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: isn't necessary to practice, and that's absolutely not true. Many
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: of the best practitioners I know have read like one
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: or two books on magic, and they're so fucking good
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: because they spent the next forty years honing what they experienced,
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: feeding relationship and feeding it back in. Like they didn't
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: get lost in the sauce, you know, in.
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's goods ship advice, not to get lost in
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: the sauce.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: It's always there's you don't have to wait into it.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: It's very easy to get listen to.
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: And again, the neurology thing is super important. Like, I
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: know a lot of people are really driven to study.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: I'm not. I never have been about anything. I'm a
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: very bad student. Because you give me like three notes
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: that sound good on the guitar and I'm done. I
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: don't want you to show me the rest of the scale.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: I'm like, that's it. I love those three notes. Let's
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: go fuck around. And I'm fucking around with those three notes.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: And what happens because I fuck up around to them
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: and some of it sounds good. For the next twenty years,
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: I'm still there. I know fucking nothing, but I play
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: for you know, an hour.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 3: So many great musicians though, so I mean like that
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 3: mentality has created some of the greatest We're not that mentality,
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: but just that that that approach, I guess, right, Like,
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, obviously Krkobin is like the perfect example, right,
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: here's here's one chord shape one and then and then
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 3: maybe he's got a couple of acoustic chords that he
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 3: threw in there. Also think that was it the Beatles,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 3: you know, I mean, like a couple of chords, that's it.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: And so I think it's really interesting because it's like,
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: so like when I say all this stuff, I also
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: understand that what's going to work for a fuck ton
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: of people is not what I'm suggesting. And so you
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: know what, I generally like, I don't know if I
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: remembered to do it on this course, that could explain
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: a couple of things. But usually I suggest people like
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: dive pretty deep into listening to me on podcasts and
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: stuff before they buy a course, because I think I
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: blow some people up because they're just like, can we
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: talk about this? It's like I can't. I don't know
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: anything about that. And to them it's like, oh, but
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: this is like such a core component, and I'm like, yeah,
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: for you, yeah, you know, can we talk about k pop?
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, that happens a lot with me. I get
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 3: a lot of people who want to talk to me
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 3: about like I know absolutely nothing about the cabalistic true
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 3: of life, and everyone's like, what do you what do
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 3: you mean?
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah about that.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 3: I know that I recognize it if you show it
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 3: to me, but like it's not a part of my
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 3: practice at all.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: M M.
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 3: I know the runes, I know, you know, I know
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 3: the things that I'm interested in, but the tree of
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 3: Life to me is just like, oh, I don't want.
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: To Oh no, I was like that for a long time.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to get into it.
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I like that about astrology and how I love astrology.
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: I had a hilarious chat with somebody about that a
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: long time ago, and they were like, yeah, but it's
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: just this filing cabinet. I was like, but you assume
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: that I know enough that I need a filing cabinet.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: This is totally wrong.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned before that. Uh, I was gonna ask earlier.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: You mentioned before something about the OTO. You you were
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: still involved with the OTO. Are you consider yourself elite
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: still or no?
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: No, I don't. I'm not sure I ever really considered
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: myself with elemite because I have like a pretty hate
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 2: heart on for Crowley I don't like the guy I
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: never have agreed is really not interesting to me. But
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: it was a place much like this is. The groups
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: that I joined were places where I could play. I
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: didn't want to strictly go it alone. And so when
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: I found a particular lodge of the Oto, which a
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: friend of mine was the lodge master of, I immediately joined.
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, let's go because it was people
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: to play with. And at that time I was because
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: of you know, I found I got into the Crowley
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: material and the Golden Dawn materials simultaneously with Libernol and Psychonot,
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: so everything was filtered through my thinking about Liberan Nolan, Psychonot,
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: and so I really just viewed it as like it
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: was a place to play. And so I did that
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: for four initiations. I think I ended after my third,
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: and then I was in the IoT briefly in the
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: same situation like, Okay, this is not quite what I do,
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: but it's a place that will let me do what
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: I do and let's see what it's like to work
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: around people. Uh, And generally I just came up with
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: the I'm better probably not actually in ritual work with
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 2: people live it's it doesn't work great for me.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: It's definitely a good place to meet other people and
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: get different ideas of what's out there.
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was really cool. There were some There
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: were some folks in the there's a guy that lived
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: downstairs of the actual temple itself until Ama Lodge that
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: had a killer library and so I got to see
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: actually original printings with the spare books before they were reprinted.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: That was the first time I got to see kind
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: of really good uh spare art reproductions. So uh and yeah,
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: lots of folks that were down with chaos magic and
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: down with experimentation. Uh. It was a very pro kind
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: of cas pro experimentation, pro psychic youth temple at that time. Uh.
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 2: Flame Lodge was.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: Cool. Yeah. I used to be a member of Tahui Lodge.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah nice. Yeah, when you mentioned that earlier,
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: I was meant to ask you. And you know, the
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: funny thing is is that, Uh, I don't think I
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: could be wrong. It's been a while. I don't think
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: you mentioned anything about the Lima in six Ways.
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: Right, No, it's unrelated to anything.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you were very popular amongst some people I
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: knew in the Oto and other you know witches.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I was making a lot before I
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: wrote Six Ways, I was mostly known as a jeweler
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: making talismanic jewelry, and because of my time in with
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 2: the Oto, I also one of the things that I
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 2: pushed was some specifically kind of babylon based jewelry that
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 2: was not the usual that kind of came through and
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: trancewerk and related stuff, and so some of that came
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: from there as well.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: The thing that I got from Crowley was libra Oh.
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: That's there's a there's a phrase in libra oh that
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: is kind of the root of chaost magic to me,
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: And that's the biggest influence from him, And that's where
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: he says, basically says, you know, in this book, we're
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: going to talk about that. I'm not quoting it directly.
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: You know, the spheres and different planes of being and
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: all this stuff that may or may not exist, and
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: it's immaterial whether they exist or not. When we do
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: certain things, certain results follow. And this to me is
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: the most important thing in magic that if you could
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: get somebody to get that, it would it realized that
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: that's the most important statement in that entire book. Uh,
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 2: it's it's it would change things and how people approach magic. Yes,
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 2: it short circuits that. It means you can figure out
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 2: all the theory, but you can create the perfect ritual
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: theoretically that doesn't do what you wanted to do right,
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: And people, I think it stuck. So they're like, fucking,
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna do the Headless right until this result works.
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: And it's like, it's not doing that for you do
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: something else. But they're like, but theoretically this should do it.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 2: It's like, who gives a fuck?
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 3: That theory is? Like it can which theory is the
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 3: working theory will be radically different person of the person,
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 3: depending on all kinds of all kinds of things that
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 3: are not under the control, some that are, some that aren't,
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 3: some that they're completely unaware of, something we don't even
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 3: know about yet, you know.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: And because and it's interesting too, because it's like like
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: I never played with the Headless Right or the Goesha
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: really at all early on, and then I did around
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, and it was so awesome because
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: what happened was it fucked up everything, Like the whole
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: little that little chunk of work did so much, created
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: so much carnage in my life, and my stubborn refusal
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: to stop is what made my allies actually start talking
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: They were like fucking stop and I was like, oh,
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: who are you. They were like, you know who we are.
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: We've always been here. This ain't right, don't do it.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: We will guide you.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 3: And I was like, okay, I thoroughly agree.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: So like, totally effective, utterly horrible. I don't recommend it
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 2: to anybody.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 3: But right, and it's so fucking trendy right now and everyone.
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 3: I have so many people who come who book like
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 3: I do. I'll do a free discovery call with anybody,
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 3: you know, talk for fifty minutes, see if joining the
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 3: school is a good idea for you. A lot of
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 3: people assume that I work with the goashi because I
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 3: have lots of friends that do. And I'm like, I wouldn't.
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 3: Fucking every time I touch that book. I have a
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 3: copy of it as bat if. Every time every time
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 3: I even touch it, shit starts happening in my house
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 3: that I don't want to happen. In fact, yesterday, So
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 3: after this recording, one hundred percent this is true story, guys.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 3: After this recording, I've asked three of my students to
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 3: come and be present while I try, for the twenty
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 3: fifth or so time to record a video while I
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 3: talk about this, because every time I do it on
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 3: my own, my microphone and video cut out midway and
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 3: I start over, so I have to ask them to
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 3: come kind of shield the space so that I can
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 3: get through the fucking lecture so I can post it.
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 3: But even when I did this lecture live a few
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 3: days ago, video cut out in the middle and everyone
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 3: had to rejoin the meeting. And it's like the disturbance.
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 3: That disturbance doesn't start to happen every time I get
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 3: anywhere near the Goaisha are so infuriating to me, and
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 3: it's like, okay, cool, you don't want me talking about you.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 3: I don't care. I'm gonna do it anyway. But you
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 3: know that this trend going on right now. Everyone wants
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 3: to work with demons, everyone wants to worth the goisha.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 3: I'm like, did you read the Gosha because it says
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 3: in like the beginning, don't do this. It's a bad
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 3: idea and you and you just started learning magic and
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 3: this is what you want to do, like on day.
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 2: Two, Well, I think it's Also it's also you know,
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: one of the ideas that I play with a lot
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: with people is this idea of, uh, we do a
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: lot of stuff as proxies for things that we don't
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 2: know what they are. Yeah, And one of the things
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: that is a big one there is we chase intensity
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: or where we think we're going to find intensity, And
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: it's like, what the fuck are you actually trying to achieve?
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: And does the intensity of the experience when you kind
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: of set things in motion, which was the ritual, right,
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: is that related to the thing you're trying to get?
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 2: It usually isn't. And this was one of the really
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: big shocks for me was that part of my neurodivergence
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 2: is that I will do things for endless periods of
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 2: time if I find them interesting. So like seven years
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: on a working a single ritual has happened, you know,
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 2: where I'm just like this works. I will just slowly iterate,
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 2: but it's the route never changes, you know. That's very
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 2: much my approach. And it was so funny to have
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: the Allies very much just be like, Okay, you're not
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 2: doing that with them, and I was doing stuff with
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: the Saints. I was kind of in the hole I was.
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: I came back from being away from kind of the
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: wider magic world into like twenty twelve, twenty eleven, twenty twelve,
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: and so I started playing again really and so they
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: were like, uh, like, pay off the four Kings, stop
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 2: with the Headless Rights. And then like next up, they
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: were like, okay, pay off the Folk Saints, get them
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: out of here, like just clear all this shit. We
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 2: got you, uh, And it was very obvious, like as
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 2: soon as that shit was out of my space, everything
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 2: began flowing. Is this everybody's experience? Obviously not. You got
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 2: to pay attention to what's actually happening and if it's
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 2: working for you, because just because somebody says this is
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: the way doesn't mean it is for you.
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 3: Well, and people will say it, but just from observation,
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 3: I don't know a single person, and I know many
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 3: people who kind of exclusively worked with these these energies
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 3: like the go AGEA specifically, and they're not to be
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 3: I'm not trying to be a dick here, but like
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 3: their lives are all full.
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: Long apart. Yeah I've said that too before.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 3: And so you know, best example is my buddy Matt
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 3: A couple of years ago because when we were I
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 3: say a couple of years is probably at least a decade,
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 3: but quite ago, when we were both still very much
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 3: experimenting with a lot of stuff, I very foolishly recommended
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 3: to him, well, why don't you try try to go istia,
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 3: try some say how this works. And then for the
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 3: next two years his life just went down the shitter.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 3: And then we were talking about it a couple of
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 3: years later. I'm like, do you still have that book?
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 3: Is that the fucking problem? Is that the problem here?
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 3: And he's like and it just hit him like Les, go,
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 3: oh my god, that's the problem, and he got rid
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 3: of it and things started to get better.
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: It's really interesting because it's like, and again I believe
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: that it kind of goes to that proxy thing. It's like,
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of folks should be asking more
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: questions rather than reading more and really to themselves like
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: why is this thing interesting to you? Like why what
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: do you see here? Specifically that it addresses the needs
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 2: in your life? And this is true when somebody says like, well,
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: what spirits should I work with for blah blah blah blah,
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 2: It's like, what are you actually trying to achieve and
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 2: have you really gone down that road? And is that
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: thing like a stop gap, because if it is, you
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: should sometimes you got to deal with it, but often
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 2: you can skip it right. You go, Okay, I think
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: I have to take this step before I take this step,
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 2: It's like, but keep that further step in mind at
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: least and go this is where I'm going. And this
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 2: is kind of what I love about working with the
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: spirits in the way that I do is most of
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 2: it has become conversational, and it's mostly one way. I
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: don't get a ton of feedback. I'm not super sensitive,
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 2: but it is that I will go to the altar
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: and there's three in the house that are all kept daily,
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: and I'll bring everybody tea in the morning and clean
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 2: up the flowers if they if that needs to happen,
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 2: or bring whatever offerings. I'm going to bring them and
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 2: say hey, and then let them know what's working really
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: well in my world and let them know what things
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: I would like some assistance on, if I would like
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: something to smooth out, if I would like some guidance
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: to appear, because I don't care if it's them telling
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: me or if I find the right book right to
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: help me through something. And it's all just conversational, which
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: means that that kind of ritual no longer becomes about
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 2: like let's generate a lot of power into the correct
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: statement of intent. It becomes this really epic conversation. And
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 2: this has worked for me really beautifully in a way
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: nothing else has. And I don't know that it's going
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: to work for ever. This is not me suggesting that,
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: but for folks that are maybe kind of found that
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: they've been spinning their wheels other ways, this is a
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: different way of working and it's viable for a lot
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: of people. Uh. It's it's a fascinating thing. And so
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 2: that goes back to that whole thing that it's the
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: relationship thing within animism. It's like, no, it's like years
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: in with the same people and generally kind of similar processes,
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 2: you end up with a very different reality.
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Sure. Something I kind of wanted to bring
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: up that I thought maybe might be I guess a
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: thought or a possibility on maybe like what Sanri was
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: saying that I've said before with people working in the Goatia,
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: they just end up having a ship life. Uh. I
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 1: have wondered just like this almost kind of goes back
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: to what you said with Crawley, where you know, who's
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 1: to say this ritual is doing anything? But in my opinion,
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: for most people that I know, when they were using
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 1: the goatia, they were probably using it to do something
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: to somebody or something not the best. You know, they
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: might have been using it for a negative reason. Now,
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 1: to do a ritual, you're going to probably, depending on
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: how you were, you might spend a lot of time.
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 1: You might even have made things, constructed things thought about
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 1: how you're going to do it, or maybe you just
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: do it a lot faster and you're not that in
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: depth as another person. But my opinion, you're going to
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: rehash in your head over and over again what you're
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: going to do, and you're going to harp on that
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: feeling and that idea over and over and over again.
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: If you're doing a spell towards somebody, you might have
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: killed the motherfucker a hundred times in your head before
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 1: you even did the spell, you know what I'm saying.
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: So if you keep doing that throughout your whole life,
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: is that going to affect you regardless?
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 2: Well, this is I think this is a really big thing.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 2: And even if we bring it down to more subtle stuff.
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 2: So one of the things that how do I put
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 2: this to me the most kind of important magic that
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 2: one can do, and it then spills out into everything else,
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: so it has all of the real world effects people
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: are looking for is the stuff that's pointed at yourself.
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 2: And it's like, Okay, how do I get the most right,
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 2: you know, in right relationship with my friends, with my family,
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: if that's possible, cut off the people that you got
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 2: to cut off, cut out the people that drag you down,
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 2: if you got to do that, begin to like really
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: work on kind of your energetic and kind of magical
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 2: psychic hygiene, get things really focused on just real wellness,
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 2: however you would define that. I'm not talking about healing
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 2: chronic disease or any of that stuff. These are it's
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: there's people that have some luck with that, but it's
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: not there's not a lot of not a big track record,
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 2: uh there for magical stuff. But really, can you work
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 2: consistently towards the things that you want and fucking just
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: ditch everything else? Like I tell people, like, and I'm
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 2: pretty unequivocal about this, Like I don't do much binful
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 2: work ever, Like throughout my life, very little has been done.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: Absolutely fucking none of it would happen in this house.
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: Like if I was gonna do something to someone, I
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 2: wouldn't do the research on it in this house. I
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 2: wouldn't bring the materials into this house. I wouldn't do
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 2: any of that shit. I would go out to a
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 2: fucking cafe I do not hang out in, do whatever
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 2: I need to get prepped, collect all that shit head
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: out of the woods, do it, dump everything left over,
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: and then fucking maybe go to the gym and take
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: a shower before I go home. But because it's I
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 2: don't want that. None of that is what I want.
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 2: I don't want the competition. I don't want any of
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 2: it lined up. I want my house, and by that
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 2: I mean both the spiritual and the physical house to
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: all be pointed towards the things that I actually want
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: to see, every bit of it. Now, Sometimes you're really fucked.
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 2: Sometimes your situation is really fucked, and the best thing
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: that you can do is maybe see if you can
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: take the person out that's causing that for real that
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: you cannot just walk away from, you know, But it's
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 2: people are kind of in that whole thing of like, ah,
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: if you if you don't hex, you can't heal. It's
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: like fucking see if you can heal.
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 3: First thing is if you don't understand how it works
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 3: doesn't mean you have to do it.
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 2: It's really Yeah. I mean, I've had friends that were
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: in really bad usually specifically domestic violence situations, that have
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: asked if I would kind of generate some tools for
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 2: them to use there.
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: And just give them a bat.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 2: Pretty much that's the correct one, but you know it's
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 2: not always right, uh, you know. And I remember doing
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 2: this for a friend of mine and I sent her
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: the PDF and with the instructions that i'd kind of generated,
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 2: and she wrote me back and she's like, there's a
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 2: reason nobody fucks with you. And I love that because
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 2: she's like, this is the most fucking medieval sh It's
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 2: really not like I asked you, are you okay if
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: they die? You know, because we have much control?
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, I agree.
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 1: So yeah, that's another thing too. Absolutely.
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 3: I don't like, I think it's possible to cast like
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 3: a light hex, but you don't know.
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 2: You don't fucking know, man, You like you like send
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 2: somebody like I want to give the person like a
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 2: skin condition and they get that through something that puts
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: them into anaphylactic shock.
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, you could give somebody's so
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: it could react to totally different way. They take a
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: prescription that pucks them up.
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 2: You know, and so it's like and it's to me,
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: it's just like why is that the focus? Why? And
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 2: again that's what we're going to. What's the proxy or
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 2: is the proxy that you feel powerless? Then work on
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: stuff that actually builds your personal power. Yeah, that isn't
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 2: personal power, that's just the ability to like it's it's
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 2: like the the epidemic in this country of people conflating
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 2: the ability to pick up a gun and shoot someone
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: with personal power. That's not personal power. That's just your
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 2: ability to use a fucking tool. Okay, you can drive
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 2: a nail, great, you're no different.
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 3: Well, there's there's an interesting phenomenon in that many of
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 3: the things things that make a person feel powerful or
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 3: are actually the opposite of what makes them powerful. Right,
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 3: Cocaine I'll make you feel powerful. Cocaine's bad for you,
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 3: meth I'll make you feel powerful. Shooting guns, being violent,
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 3: all of these things activate those parts of your brain
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 3: that make you feel powerful, where really they're all rooted
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 3: in I would say fear right, fear of not being powerful.
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's also it goes back to
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 2: the whole again thing we were talking about before. Our
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: power lies in each other. Our power lies in network
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 2: groups of people that know each other really well that
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 2: will both step up for you and say hey, I'll
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 2: help you out with that, and also say, hey, you're
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 2: just fucking, really fucking heartbroken and you feel really rejected,
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 2: and let's talk about that shit, because that's not worth
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 2: you actually getting further riled up to try and throw
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 2: something at you know, you take out the trash, you
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 2: don't fucking take it into the bedroom and like sort
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 2: it on the bed for weeks on end, which is
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 2: a lot of what I think this stuff ends up doing.
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 1: So uh, snary. Was there anything else you wanted to
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 1: ask or anything? I'll probably wrap it up.
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 3: It's almost no, not in particular. I always really enjoy
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 3: talking to you, and I think you've got great ideas
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 3: and a great way of articulating yourself. And you know,
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 3: one of the things is just a statement of appreciation,
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 3: is that I love that you are You're not You're
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 3: saying this is the way it is, this is what's correct.
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 3: Everyone else is wrong.
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: I'm right.
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 3: This is something you see all over the occult world.
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 3: So I really appreciate that, and you know, I think
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm good, lots to think on.
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: Awesome. Thank you man, Thank you. I'm really glad you
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: made it. I appreciate it. I hated that was a
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: really amazing discussion. Really, I'm so happy you came on.
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: Like I said before, so it was an awesome experience
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: for me because I read your book and it did, uh,
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 1: it did influence me to get hit more hands on
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: with stuff. I did start kind of making like my
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: own candles and talismans. I start getting more into that,
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: and I guess a lot more of like what we
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: would consider a ceremonial magician would consider low magic, you
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 1: know when they start doing that. Yeah, but you know,
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 1: I got more, uh, and I had a lot of fun.
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: I had a lot of fun with that stuff. I'll
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 1: always remember that. So thank you for coming on.
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 2: Because again, thank you for having me.
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember even your name and your book. When
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: that book came out, that was You're a big hit
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 1: among the people I knew.
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 2: So that's awesome. Yeah, I surprise, total surprise. It was
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 2: not expected. I've said it many times. I like was like,
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: I bet I could sell like three hundred bucks. Yeah,
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 2: it's it's been more than that.
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I was gonna say I would assume it
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: has been more than that.
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 2: The next one might only be that. It's it's probably
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 2: the one that will fall.
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 1: Well, who's uh do you have a publisher for that yet?
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 2: Oh? It's always me. Oh okay, all right. The last ones.
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 2: When I was having my breakdown, I formed there's a
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 2: there's basically a co conspirator for the first three and
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 2: so those are kind of locked in place. We set
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 2: that up when I was kind of losing my mind,
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 2: just to keep me out of doing stupid things. But
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 2: the next one will be under my own imprint. Again nice. Yeah, no,
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 2: I I do the whole thing. I have an editor,
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 2: and I do all the layouts and all that shit.
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: So please, when it's out, let me know if you
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 1: want to come on and promote it.
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, I would love to come in and talk about
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 2: that one. It's it's an interesting book. At least I
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 2: think it's an interesting book.
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 3: I'm sure it's gonna be and I think again. That's
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 3: one of the great things about all of your work
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 3: is that it's interesting. You're not regurgitating other people's ideas.
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 3: You've got interesting ideas that are really exciting to read about.
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 1: It's good to hear, you know, which I think keeps
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 1: it keeps it exciting.
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: I think that that's you know, it's one of the
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 2: things that I kind of when I was writing Six Ways,
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: I began writing some of those absurd footnotes and because
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 2: they kept me light with it, and the more I
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 2: did it, the more I was like, oh, I've never
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 2: seen this anywhere, and I really like it. I think
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: it's really good and it was really funny. A friend
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 2: of mine read I think it's maybe it's the beginning
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 2: of the process of weeding out that chapter and like
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 2: the first three sentences quote like I think three or
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 2: four different songs from the eighties to make my point.
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 2: Like it's almost there's just me connecting things, you know.
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: And they were like this is wrong, and I'm like,
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 2: but did you laugh? And they were like, I did it.
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 2: It was like, so I did exactly what I wanted,
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember when I think I was reading your book,
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 1: I was also reading one of long Milo's so like
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: between movies, it was pretty like it was a nice
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: experience to be reading like two funny people's books, like
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 1: back to that.
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 2: I think it helps people drop a lot of the
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 2: stuff we've talked about, where it's there's a belief you
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: have to be deadly serious that a lot of people hold,
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 2: and that's another big block. It's like, yeah, you should
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 2: take what you do seriously, but that doesn't mean you
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 2: can't have fun with it. I talk shit to my
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 2: spirits like it's there's two ways we talk, and one
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: is when I'm doing the offerings and when I'm making requests.
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 2: It's actually kind of formal, but it's not super formal.
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 2: It's not as formal as what's in the books anymore
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: because we've got those relationships built. But I frequently am
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 2: wandering around talking shit with them. Uh, you know, bitches
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 2: and motherfuckers are kind of my go to things that
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: come up that people are shocked by when they I
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 2: realized this isn't a joke, because I will be like, motherfucker's,
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 2: what is up with this? Why did that go that way?
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 2: You know? And then on the other side it's like
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 2: then we get real with how important that relationship is.
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 2: But it does also keep me in mind that this
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: is a reciprocal friendship relationship and I get humor off
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 2: of them. They can be very funny. There's a shit
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 2: that comes from from my peeps that is fucking hysterical,
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 2: and some of that makes it into the books in
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 2: other places, because again, the things that are attracted to
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 2: me the way that I work are things that like
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 2: me as I am. And this is again I think
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 2: another key for longevity is like do you want to
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 2: hang out with that spirit? If not, why you talking
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 2: to him? And then also like spirits pop in on
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 2: people and people think they got to deal with them.
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 2: And I always say, that's like going to the bar
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 2: and it seem that because some guy walks up and
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 2: starts talking to you, you need to go home with them.
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 2: It's like, no, it's not, it's not real. Let that
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 2: shit go if it doesn't. If you don't have the
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 2: hell yet, I want to go bang this thing. Don't bother.
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: You know that's well put totally agree. Thank you. Before
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 1: we wrap it up, Sorry, was there anything you want
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 1: to promote about your show or anything? No?
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 3: Not really, I mean just you know, we have a
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 3: really fun school and a really fun community over here.
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 3: And like I said, everything on my website is half
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 3: off today. The coupon codes, I'll say it more clearly
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 3: this time are three three three for everything except coaching packages.
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 3: Than it's four four four, and I'm probably gonna run
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 3: the sale all week. My book will be out October second.
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 3: You can pre order it on Amazon now, and I
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 3: did just launch a certification course that comes that goes
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 3: along with the book. So if you'd like to learn
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 3: the system of magic that I've developed, which I think
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 3: is a lot of fun and very effective, then come
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 3: do that, come hang out. We do a lot of
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 3: community events, We do a lot of fun stuff, and
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 3: I'd love to have people come and join us.
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 1: Well, so much to thank you. That's great, Sam, thank
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: you very much for making it and aid and please
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 1: remind anybody too where they can find interview stuff or anything.
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 2: You can find me mostly on Patreon. The only social
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 2: media I'm regularly paying any attention to is blue Sky,
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 2: But I'm not really active on social media unless I
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 2: have something to promote or cross promote. The Patreon is
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 2: pretty much it. And then also the first episode of
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 2: my podcast dropped about a month ago maybe. So if
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 2: you do a search on Apple Podcasts for Glimmering, you'll
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 2: get episode one of that and it's g L Y
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 2: M M E R I n G. And I will
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 2: try and get the next one of those out in
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 2: the next couple of weeks.
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 3: So what's your podcasting me about? What's the magic?
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 2: Whatever makes sense to me? It's uh, I'm it's I
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 2: want it to be about magic, but often kind of tangentially,
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 2: I'm interested in talking to people about their experiences more
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 2: than as a promo thing. I'm also have some I've
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 2: had a few musicians that I know are practitioners in
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 2: some way who I want to get on to talk
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 2: about kind of the intersection of their kind of spiritual
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 2: practice and their music and uh more of that if
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 2: I can, uh and then those will be the shows
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 2: that have guests, and then kind of the solo shows
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 2: are more just kind of talking about my thoughts about
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 2: all of this stuff in a way to I've been
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 2: producing endless kind of videos on Patreon, and at this
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 2: point I think I will shift a lot of those
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 2: onto the Nice platform.
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 1: So nice man, good luck with all that. I hope
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 1: that I hope that works out for I want to
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 1: hear it. I'm looking forward right, Yeah, that sounds good.
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much again for coming on. Like I said,
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 1: it was, it was wild for me to have you on.
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 1: So I really appreciate it.
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm totally stoked that we got to talk.
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, thank you, and Sonrai again, thank you
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 1: for jumping on and all your wonderful questions. I really
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 1: appreciate it.
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 3: And I appreciate you appreciate being here.
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was super nice to talk to you again, Sonray.
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you gotta do this more often.
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: This, you know, there's put this.
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 3: I'm not trying to be a jerk to anyone, but
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 3: like there's a certain type of mindset of practitioner that
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 3: I love talking to, you know, and then there's then
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 3: there's everyone else. I don't know, but day and you're
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 3: definitely in that group of people who I'm really fascinated
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 3: to hear what you have to say about just about anything.
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I totally enjoy your approach on things too interesting.
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 3: Very cool. Thank you very much. Oh my god, it's
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 3: time to eat.
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm can't huguring myself and everybody in the chat.
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 1: I appreciate the questions. I appreciate Freda RC, thank you
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 1: for the five dollars. I appreciate that. And the other
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 1: people and they're asking questions, whatever, making comments. I appreciate it.
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 1: And that's why we go live and until the next one,
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 1: everybody be well. Lada