Latest / The You Project / #1868 Sneaky Little Manipulators - Dr. Sam Casey

Transcript

#1868 Sneaky Little Manipulators - Dr. Sam Casey · The You Project

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment the show
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: tif Any and Cook. We'll start with you.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Hi, Hello, sir.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: It's a little bit late for you. It's twenty five
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to seven. Do you are you okay?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Well, daylight savings, it feels real late. I'm not.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: I'm ready for bed when the sun goes down.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: What's your typical going to bedtime?
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: I get like to hop into bed at nine and
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: read a book.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: How many hours of sleep? Doctor Sam? Will come to
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: you in a moment, apologies. How many hours of sleep
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: do you get on average?
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: I think that my average is around seven hours now
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: or set might even be seven and a half. I've
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: worked very hard on that. I'm trying to check my
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: stats as we speak.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: And you're not hungry. I was worried that you would
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: get on because it's twenty five to seven in the
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: PM and you without food. You're not like my favorite
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: you is not a hungry you. I'm going to be honest.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: You're not alone. You're not alone on a hungry Do.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: You get angry, doctor Sam?
• 1:03
  Speaker 4: I do get hungry, and like I often refer to that,
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: you know, with my friends, when it's getting to that time,
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: I'm like we need to you know, we need to
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: get to lunch now, Like I'm getting hungry, So it's
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: definitely a thing for me.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: I wonder if that's more of a girl thing than
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: a guy, I think, because I don't. I don't think
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: any of my mates get that. Maybe I don't. I
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: don't really get it, Like I get hungry, but I'm like, ah,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: I can do kids get hungry? Do kids get cranky
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: because they're not eating or they Yeah?
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so, And I think there's probably two parts.
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: So well, obviously it's the being hungry and not knowing
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: how long, you know, Like for us, we could go
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: I'm hungry, but I'm going to go to the shops
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: and I'll get it will be ready in five minutes.
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: But for kids, they don't see that, So I think
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: that's one part. But also the blood sugar levels too,
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: Like if they're constantly sacking throughout the day, they're having
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: just a lot of carbs without that protein and that
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: fats you know, you get that boost of energy, but
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: then you come crashing down And I feel like that's
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: where the hangary in this comes from too.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: So do you when kids are grumpy or out of sorts?
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: That's what Mary, that's what my mum calls children out
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: of sorts, Like, oh, he was out of sorts? Yeah,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: what eighty five year old ladies say? Is it more
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: often than not tiredness, hunger, or anxiety one of those three?
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Or is it something else?
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: I think there's like always the combination of things, right,
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: Like we can look at it from our basic needs
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: of like, yeah, they tired, they're hungry, are they overstimulated?
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: Are they understimulated? So there's all of those like kind
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: of basic stuff. But then yeah, I mean they could
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: be anxiety in a situation where they're feeling like they
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: have to do it right, do it perfectly, they're scared
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: about something. So I think there's almost a lot going
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: on and it's hard for kids to articulate that as well.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I've never asked you about this, I don't think. But
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: tell me about I don't want to offend anyone, but
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: tell me about clinging kids, like you know, like that
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: the kid that just holds mum's leg. Mum walks and
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: the kids hold like a little spider monkey holding the leg.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Tell me about cleanness, how like how do you deal
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: with that?
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's such a good one. So separation anxiety, yeah, yeah,
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: so common in those for younger kids, and partly you know,
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: there's it's really like it should be normalized in some ways.
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: It's like yep, kids you know struggle to understand that
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: separation if you can go but you can come back,
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: and so then that's their I don't want you to go,
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: and then they cling on, right. I think the problem
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: becomes when we feel as adults that we can't then
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: live our lives, so then it becomes a cycle.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: So for example, if you've got a mum and you've
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: got a child going, I don't want you to go
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: out with your friends. I missed you, and a mom
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: then starts to feel guilty and she's like, oh, like
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: my child really needs me, Like I shouldn't leave them.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: I don't want them to feel abandoned, So then they
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: don't go. What ends up happening is that the mom
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: then becomes obviously resentful naturally because she feels like I
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: can't do anything without my child being upset, and then
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: the child's like, but I just need you here, but
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: they physically want the mom there, but the mum emotionally
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: obviously can't be there. If she's having to be present
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: twenty four seven, or the child is demanding so much
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: of her.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: So what ends up happening.
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: Is that the pair and then kind of gets a
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: bit snarky and a bit annoyed with the child, and
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: then the child wants someone even more because it's like,
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: I know I need you, and I don't know, and
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: I'm not getting this need met, So it becomes this
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: perpetuating cycle. So I think I think the anxiety for
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: child breths anxiety for parent, and so in order to break.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: That, we need to be like, of course you're upset
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: that you needed me to leave.
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: I miss you too, and I know that you miss me,
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: but here's a boundary. I am going to leave and
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: I'm going to come back. So what would you like
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: to do when I come back? How can I reconnect?
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: And so it's almost like teaching that child that cycle.
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: If there is a rupture, so to speak, I'm having
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: to leave you and you're really upset about that.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: But then we're going to repair when I get back.
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: And so I think it's about us having that kind
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: of confidence and that separation and going it's okay for
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: my child to feel worried, but I need to be
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: able to hold this boundary as well.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, otherwise the kids are kind of manipulating the parents, right, Well.
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no one really gets their needs met because then
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: the child gets is like kind of cranky, annoyed parent
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: that's like, oh, I'm like kind of I'm feeling really
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: touched out right now, and you're overwhelming me and so.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: I'm not really giving you the best of me.
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: And then the child then thinks it's obviously them and
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: then they kind of seek that out more. So I
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: don't really feel like that helps either one of them.
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: I think it's much better for the mom to be like, okay,
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: I still need to go, and then the child be upset,
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: But then the mom fill up their caup and come
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: back and be like, Okay, I'm really going to give
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: you this quality time then yeah, in a way that
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: you want and actually be present with that. So yeah,
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: it's it's hard, but it becomes a cycle.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: One of my one of my friends or a couple,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Nigel and Mary Jane, they own three childcare centers and
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: so they have about forty forty five staff and I
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: don't know a shitload of kids in those three centers,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: and I just think that is a hard job. Like
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: they I mean, they love it, they're very good at it,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: they do very well, they're very popular, they've got a
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: massive waiting list, all that stuff. But yeah, I just
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: think that would be, you know, dealing with the hysterical
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: kid that doesn't want mum or dad to leave. I
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: guess generally mum, and then trying to what is the
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: strategy when going to childcare or kinder or school for
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: the first time when the little one kind of loses it.
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's such a good question because I used to
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: wake in a child concentered too, And I think one
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: of the worst things that we can do, which looks
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: like it's the best in the short term, but the
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: worst in the long term, is sneak out. So a
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: lot of parents are like, my child gets so distressed
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: if I say.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Goodbye to them. So what I'm going to do is
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: I'm going.
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: To quickly sneak out, and they're just going to get
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: distracted and have fun with their friends and then I'll
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: be back and everything's fine. And I think what we
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: do as adults is we're thinking what's the path of
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: least resistance, which could be that, but then what ends
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: up happening as a child gets even more anxious because
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: they're like, every time I look away, you're gone, So
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: how can I trust that you're not.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Going to do that again? When are you going? When
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: are you coming? When a you're going? It's just so confusing.
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: It's much better is I think that prep work of
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: playing around what you know, play boss, playing around that beforehand.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: If this is how it's going to go, I'm going
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: to I'm going to be dropping you here, and I'm
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: going to be leaving and it could be tough, and
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: you're going to have your friends, and then I'm going
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: to come back. And so the child understands the story,
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: but then when the parents in that situation, they hold
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: that space. So I've come here, I've helped you with
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: your bag like I said it would, I've given you
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: a hug and a kiss.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: But then I'm going to.
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: Go and not making it a drawn out process and
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: not making it a trying to plead and bargain with them,
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: but I am going and kind of being able to
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: say goodbye. And what ends up happening is, of course
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: the child's going to be potentially upset, and that's okay,
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: but then kind of coming back, and I think once
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: we're able to, I guess feel that discomfort offere, they're
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: going to be upset. I'm going to see that, but
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: still not letting that guilt then cause us to do
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: something different, right, which you stay plead, feeling really bad,
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: maybe quitting, you know whatever. Else They can move through it,
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: because it's okay to feel wirried at times, and you
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: know what, you'd kind of prefer a child to do that,
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: to be honest, then to be too scared to tell
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: you that they are and sit with that and then
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: that kind of bubble away. So I think, you know,
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: the kids that are able to say no, I don't
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: want you to go, that's a good thing. We don't
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: want kids to put on a mask. We just want
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: to be able to help them through that.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: If do you wish doctor Sam would talk a bit quicker.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: I listened to podcasts on one point five and she's
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: already on point I'm down with this.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't need to you don't need to listen.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: You probably need to wind it back to put out.
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: What you're here for the too, right, that's what you're
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: here for for it, you know, like being able to
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: slow it down to the listeners.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: She doesn't slow it down. She said it about one
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: point five. I reckon, I want to know about I
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: don't know if this is the right term, but this
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: is the Craig term incidental learning with little kids versus
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: intentional learning teaching. Like, obviously, kids are from when they
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: can fathom anything, right from when they can understand anything.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: Parents are teaching them stuff. But at what stage do
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: you think you should start to consciously teach them things
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: in a semi organized, structured way.
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: I think that we should always be moving between the
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: two of intentional and incidental. I don't think that each
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: either one is better or worse. I think each situation
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: calls for different ones. So is there a situation that
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: you're thinking of in terms of what's better.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: I was just thinking about like this guy that I
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: know where I'm doing at UNI at Monash. He's got
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: this little kid who's this I don't want to throw
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: anyone under the bus, but he's this genius penist. He's
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: like seven. He plays like fucking Mozart and like that
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: kid's been playing since he was I think two. I
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: mean he's a prodigy, Like he's been on TV all that, right, ridiculous. Yeah,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: But like I imagine he started to learn, like being taught
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: reading music, understanding tempo notes, chords, like putting stuff together
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: timing at about two or three yea. And you know,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't have an opinion. I'm just curious
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: around that. And I guess it's different for different people, right.
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I guess it's different of how that started.
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: You know, was it really parent led? Was it a
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: child kind of showing an interest in something and so
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: then we're just following that pace and then they ended
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: up really liking it and you know, being so driven
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: internally that you're kind of supporting that. Or was it really,
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: like I said, parent led and then kind of pushing that?
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: And I think it's so easy to look at that
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: when you're looking at these examples of really talented kids
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: and kids that are obviously above the rest of their peers,
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: right with a certain skill. But I think when we
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: look at success, it's not just that, it's looking at
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: their mental health too, right, It's looking at everything and
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: the whole picture.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: So you'll see that with like child actors.
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, they do amazing, they're in shows, they're super famous,
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: and then they get on the drugs and the alcohol,
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: and they're numbing and they're really struggling in their life.
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: So I think that's a tricky bit. I don't think that,
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: like I said, it's one or the other. I think
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: it's trying to get a live in both walls that
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: you want to provide opportunities. You want to help kids
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: get out of their comfort zone and guide them and
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: be directive with that. But then you also want them
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: to love learning and love what they're doing and have
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: that passion and let that be internally driven. So how
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: do we manage both? I think it's like a dance.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Really.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting, right because when you said that about
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: child actors, and I know that some some went great,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: but this there's probably a disproportionate number of very very
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: very famous children and it didn't go well for them
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: over the long term as adults, you know. So yeah,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: and that's that kind of I mean, do kids feel
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: this is I don't know if this is dumb question,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: but I know kids feel pressure. But you spoke before
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: we started recording, you spoke about burnout, Like do kids
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: get burnout?
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it is different.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: Does that mean, like, how is that how's that different
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: to adult burnout? If at all?
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: That's a good point. So I guess with adult burnout.
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: You know, where how do you see that someone's burnt out?
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Let's just say at work.
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: They might lose their passion for things, right, They may
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: feel like depressed, they may feel really stressed. They might
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: have a bit of a breakdown, they may quit their job.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: With kids, they don't have as much control over their
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: lives to be able to do that.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: So when a child's.
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: Really at the tent, like at their end, you know,
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: how would that show out? Probably behavior issues? Yeah, right,
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: a lot of behavioral isshous defiance.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Maybe you know what I mean.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I mean this is not a silly question. What do
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: kids have to be burnt out? I like too much sand,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: pit time, too much monkey bars.
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: I think it's the expectations, to be honest, when I
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: when I hear a lot of parents and they're like, okay,
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: so my kids to wake up at this time, and
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: then they do this, and then they do that, and
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: they come back from school and then pretty much every
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: moment is.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Scheduled until they go to bed.
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: I couldn't operate like that, Like I'm not a robot,
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: like I need space to do nothing. I need I
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: need different rhythms. Right, some days do call for like
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: productivity and like yeah, I'm on it, but other days
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: really cool for just like I want to have fun
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: and just be and have space to just like when
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: I say play, I mean like have a little dance
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: party with my kids, or just go down to the
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: park and not have to worry about what how many
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: to come back and I'll come.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Back when I'm ready, you know, like that kind of stuff.
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: So I think what we do again, with the best intentions,
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: a lot of parents want to give their kids all
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: the opportunities and everything that they didn't receive, but what
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: ends up happening is they actually overscheduled to the point
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: of it's really stressful and because it's coming from someone else.
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: If you could imagine, you know, if I plan something
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: for myself and I feel differently, I can then you
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: know readjust kids don't get that opportunity if they're like
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: to their parents, I don't feel like it the parents
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: like now I scheduled this or where do you do this?
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: So it is really hard. Yeah, I think that's where
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: the bend that would come from. To be honest, overscheduling
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: and expectations which are just not developmentally appropriate. Kids aren't,
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: you know how they haven't got their brain completely you know,
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: developed at such a young age, and so we have
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: these expectations if you should be able to do this,
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: I saw you do it yesterday, But they can't keep
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: that up right twenty four to seven. Like, we've all
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: got different sides of us. We have, you know, responsible sides,
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: and we also have these other sides that we need
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: to be playful and spontaneous, and kids are the same.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you ever see You probably don't because you're
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: not really involved in sports so much. But like I've
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: been around a lot of athletes, like even kids from
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: ten through to obviously elite adult athletes. But it's interesting
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: with kids in sport, how often, like I've often wondered,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: how much is this how much of this motivation and
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: drive coming from the kid, and how much of it
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: is coming from the parent, and how much of it
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: is because the kid feels obligated or this is how
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the kid thinks she's going to please dad or mum
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: or she's going to I feel like that with children
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: in sport it can be precarious as well, because it's
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: not because, like especially for elite children, Like one of
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: my friends, their kid is in the Victorian bask A girl,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: young girl twelve, she's amazing though her name's doesn't matter
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Indie Indiana. So she's in the state basketball team and
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the state netball, state football team for girls and elite
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: and probably going to be a professional athlete. But she
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: trains like an adult, Like she has strength program, running program, skills, agility,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: football training, basketball training. I look at all that, I'm thinking, Wow,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: this is a lot for a kid. I mean, she's
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: twelve and she's in the she's once say which school,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: but she's at a fancy school in Melbourne. She's in
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: the senior basketball team. So she's in year seven. They're
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: all in year twelve.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Wow, there's this thirteen year old girl running around with
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: seven and an eighteen year old girls. And I just think,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: you know, she seems to be doing great. Their parents
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: are great. But for a lot of kids, that's not
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: always the case, right.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: No, it's not.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: And like you said, where is it driven by? Because
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: sometimes parents, you know, pick specific sports that they really
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: love and they're like, I want my child to have
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: that love for it.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: All. I wish I had this opportunity.
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: So I feel like I've actually had whole opposite experiences
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: with this as my own kids. You know, my son,
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: you know, I got him into soccer fest. I had
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: no idea if he would like it or not, and
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: he really thrived with it and he loved it.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: And he's you know, winning awards.
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: And he's you know, you know, in the top division
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: and he's mean, he's ten, so it's still quite new
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: for him, but it's very intently driven, you know, when
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: I watch how he plays, even by himself, right, he
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: really just enjoys the sport.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: And so that's really cool.
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: Providing an opportunity for a child that wants to be
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: there and wants to exceed on that. I tried to
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: give the same opportunity for my daughter, and I mean
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: it was it was a struggle to even get head
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: to like stand on the field, you know. And I
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: definitely felt that for my own, you know, because it
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: was so easy with my son and terms of him
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: just really thriving in that environment. With my daughter, I
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: was like, oh, but it's it's soccer time, and again
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: she didn't want to go, and then when she did,
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: she didn't really want to participate, and I could feel
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: that like, oh, okay, you know this is kind of
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: where these parents feel this pressure because you're like, no,
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: this is this.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Is great, let's do that.
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: And then you kind of have to step back and
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: you're like, that's not their thing, and that's all right,
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: what is her thing? You know, she loves us, So
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: for me anyway, I think it's really important to notice
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: our kids' strengths, not just strengths, but they interests, their curiosity,
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: what captures their interests, you know, a little bit longer
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: than the normal activities, and then let's hone in on
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: that and give them different opportunities and also kind of
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: support them and knowing that sometimes part of that is
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: to feel uncomfortable and we kind of want to run
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: away from it. But how do we hold that space
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: where where like, when we do something new, it is uncomfortable.
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: And I think that's why it's really important for parents
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: to be doing that at the same time, so you'll
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: notice the parents that are living through their kids and
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: that's why there is so much pressure. And then you'll
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: notice the parents that are actually achieving their own goals
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: and they're going through their own path of doing their
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: own hobbies and they're like, I want my child to
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: experience there, so they're sharing it with them. It's very different.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: It's not a pressure. It's more like, yeah, like a journey.
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: They're both on that journey together.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: It must be very hard for a parent, I reckon.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: I'm not a parent, so this is a hypothesis. But
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: you know, if you're really good at something, or you're
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: into something, you're into you know, you're a musician, or
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: you're a whatever, you're an athlete or and you know
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: that your kid could be good too, and you you're
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: passionate and you want them to share your passion, but
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: they don't, you know, to not like to have enough
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: awareness to not impose that on them when they show
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: no interest in the thing that you're interested in exactly.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: And this is why I think it is so important
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: that we really have our own stuff and we're working
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: on our own goals, because then we will look at
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: it that like I talk. I think about this in
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: one of the other podcasts where I left school at
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: an early age, and you know, I thought that was
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: like a bit of an unfinished business for me, and
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: I think if I didn't go back to university and
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: I didn't obviously complete my studies, I would have naturally
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: put pressure on my kids because I would have been
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: like I didn't have a parent that really was supporting me.
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: But here I am supporting you guys, and I'll give
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: you anything. What do you need to succeed versus now
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: I'm doing that and I've realized, you know, studying is
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: such a hard path and it's got to be internally driven.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: So I can step back.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: I can be there to support them, but I know
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: that that's their journey, and what's more important is probably
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: them getting something that they're really interested and they're passionate about, right,
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: And then I'm there to support that, not lead it,
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: and not drive it because it can't be driven externally.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: Like that's never going to be the way that we
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: should be supporting our kids.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: It has to be. Yeah, And I.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Guess one of the challenges with this, I feel like
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: we live in a very externally focused world. Like when
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: we talk about success, yeah, like, oh, isn't he doing great?
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Isn't she doing great? She's getting amazing marks. He's in
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: the football team, or she's in the football team, he's
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: getting amazing marks. Whatever, you know, We never look at
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: kids and go or isn't she doing great? She's content?
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Isn't he doing great? He's got no anxiety? Like It's
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: always about stuff that we can obviously see. It's about achievements,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: it's about performance, it's about gold, it's about appearance, it's
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: about outcomes. It's like nobody looks at somebody across the
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: bar or wherever it goes. Wow, look at her. She
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: seems like she's really in a good place, emotionally well done,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: like nobody.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: That's so true. That's very true. I imagine in the
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: precious parents to keep one with well.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, I reckon. We've all grown up in a
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: model that says that success is about outcomes and things
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: and stuff that people can see, you know. And so
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: when your kid knows, well, if I'm prettier, or I'm faster,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: or I'm stronger, or I'm smarter or I'm whatever, then
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: that gives me social currency. Then you know, of course
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: they're going to strive for that perhaps or feel terrible
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: if they're not that.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: This is a really good example.
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: So we have this thing at my children's school, and
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: it's like a reading based kind of challenge program. So
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: you read a certain amount of books, and then you know,
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: you get like a stick air and then you get
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: like a badge, and then everyone who's read like twenty
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: five books has a twenty five badge.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: You know that kind of program.
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: Now you can see how socially it's important, right if
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: kids really want to be a part of that. And
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: I ask my kids, is this something that you really want?
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: You really want to get that badge?
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: And they don't.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: And so then for me as a parent, now you
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: could go two ways with that. You could be like, oh,
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: this is you know, something that the school's driven, and
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: I really need to do it, and we need to
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: get that because all the other kids will be getting that,
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: and I need to look like a good parent and
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: you need to be able to achieve this. Or I
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: could kind of take a step back and going before
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: they had this program and before my kids went to school.
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: I just think reading's great in general, and I would
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: do that anyway with my kids. And I have a
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: lot of books and my kids have a lot of
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: that as well, and I just want to cultivate that
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: to just normalize that without the you get a badge
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: because you've wrote twenty five books, like I don't really
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: know how many books I've read.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: And to be honest, it's not really important.
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: We could sit on a book one for one page
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: for twenty minutes, or we could breeze through a couple
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: in ten, you know, like it's me if for me,
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: it's about the experience of it. I'm not trying to
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: rush through books just to tick a box. I would
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: like to talk about it if they want to, and
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: you know, imagine things and all of that kind of stuff.
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: So that was something I decided to opt out of.
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: So it's things like that, I think, where you know,
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: you can put an external prize on it, but then
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: choosing to be like, yeah, I don't really want to
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: do that because this is just a value of mine
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: and I just want to normalize that. So I think
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: there are that we can kind of mute out the
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: noise and not.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Fall into that trap if yeah, making it always about
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: like what's the reward?
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I was very proud of Tiff recently because
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: she got her twenty five book Badge. I mean, she
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: started when she was seven, so it's taken a while.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: But to be honest, I don't really think I could
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: get that because I'm just like chronically never finishing books.
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: Like I'll get a book and I'll read the chapters
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: that I like, and then I'll move on to the next.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: So I don't sit there and read one from start
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: to finish, like I actually don't.
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, it would be hypocritical of me to expect
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: my childhood they didn't really want to.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: My reading days of books, like physical hard copy books,
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: I think they're almost over, although maybe I'm just going
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: like I've read in Inverted Coomma's nine books in about
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: the last three months, but they're all audible.
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: Okay, you didn't really read them. Then you listen to
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: the books.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's people say red but yeah, I agree
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: with you. It's definitely not reading. So I've got a
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: couple of specific questions. How old are your kids again?
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I know you've told me I forget.
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so my sounder ten ten and my daughter will
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: ten eight in a few months.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: So now we've covered this a little bit. But as
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: somebody who is a therapist in the child's psychology behavior space,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: what's your personal philosophy. I'm not talking about what you
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: recommend or what you teach, but what's your approach to
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: your kids? And social media and what you're thinking. Not
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: as a therapist, but well you can't as a therapist second,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: but a mum first.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Really good point. I haven't.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: I mean, my kids, you know, have iPads, but they
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: don't have mobile phones and they're not really on any
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: of the social media, so I haven't really had to
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: I haven't had to.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Deal with that yet.
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: But I I think the way that I would do
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: it is knowing that these things exist, right, and how
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: do we navigate that? Because the more that you say
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: no to something completely, the more they're going to want
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: to do it. So I think it's probably important to
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: have these conversations right, understand what they want out of it,
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: and probably that visibility and that transparency. But I think
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: we do live in a day and age where social
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: media is a thing, So I think I'd much more
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: want to be on board with that and showing them
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: how to use it in healthy ways when it comes
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: to that, rather than demonize it. And I think that's
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: the same to be honest with screen time. Like we
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: can sit here and demonize screen time, but the reality
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: is I was doing a PhD in another state, I
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: was working in another state, I was learning in another
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: states all things that I was only able to access
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: because of the power of the computer, or even say
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: social media. I mean, we're having this conversation because of
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: social media. So I much like to talk and I
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: already do this without them having it talking about the
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: power of social media, like they know that my business
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: is on social media, they know that, you know, they
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: can search up my name and find me kind of situation.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I'm definitely already starting to talk to them
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: about chat, GPT and using these tools, but in probably
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: in better ways.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, do you use.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Just speaking of that, do you in your work? Do
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: you use AI, chat, JPT and the like.
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I use it in general for like not just brainstorming,
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: but I think kind of like brainstorming like a bit
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: of a conversation.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I like to to you.
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: Know, frame it in ways, ask them to you know,
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: compare different let's just say, compare different theories, you know,
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: dop point things like that kind of stuff. I don't
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: use it in terms of writing or my voice, but
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: I definitely use it as a bit of a research tool. Sorry,
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: So I might ask it for recent research on a
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: certain topic, or I might, yeah, use it in that way,
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: and I think I think it can be really powerful
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: to be honest chat GBT if we are using it
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: in the right ways. Yeah, yeah, more for brainstorming a situation.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Do you use that?
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah. I mean I can't use it in
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: my research of course, because it's it's all.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: The PhD of course. Yeah, that's sorry. Yeah, disclaimer around that.
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: Of course, if you're doing a study, you can't do it.
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: But I mean just in terms for the everyday person
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: when we're looking at researching, what's even researching like buying
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: a product? You know, it's really good to be able
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: to like what do you think are these two things?
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: It's great you actually can use AI, but it depends
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: how so yes, Like for example, mine is a research PhD,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: so you've got to you know, run interpret data them.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: But I might write something or I might I can
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: put actually in an entire academic paper from a journal
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: and put it into Claude, which is an academic more
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: academic AI tool. Yeah, and so give me a two
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: hundred word synopsis of this, okay.
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: So could you use it for your that crown stuff
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: of going? Can you find me similar studies in the
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: last ten years?
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Yep?
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: You can't use it to write your papers, yeah, you know,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: but yeah, definitely.
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: I even have got my like my kids or my daughter,
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: for example, asked me a question about space. It was
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: like a black hole thing and I didn't really know
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: about it at all, and I asked, chactually be ten.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: It was a really complicated answer, and then I said,
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: could you please explain that two a seven year old?
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: And they came up with a really good thing.
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: So it stuff like that I think can be really
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: useful one hundred percent.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that, and I love it when you know,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: even you could like say, you're trying to teach your
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: kids a lesson about I don't know whatever, like self
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: awareness or whatever. Right, yeah, you can ask you can
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: ask it to write a story that explains self awareness
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: and self regulation and you know, suitable for a seven
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: to ten year old or it does, and it's like
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: it subtly kind of blinds these reasonably complicated constructs in
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: a way that kids can understand where they are. Oh,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: I get that, I get that. Ye, I mean, I think,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: you know, people, I think with a lot of things,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: we're digressing a little bit. But I just think that
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: with all of the resources and tools that we've got
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: available tools. It's like, I don't think social media is
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: good or bad. I think people use it poorly and
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: people use it well. I think people share hate and
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: people share love. It's like, you know, social media itself
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: is just a tool. AI is just a tool, agreed.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: You can use it, you cannot use it. You can
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: pay attention, you cannot pay attention. But I think it's
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: like most things anyway, is it depends what you do
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: with that. It depends how you use that.
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: You know differently, and as part of I think just
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: human nature, Like it's even with screen time or your phones, right,
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: You're going to notice maybe times in your life where
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: you're using it a bit more than you want and
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: then you have to kind of read just and then
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: maybe you feel like you're not using it as much
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: as you.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Could and you want to, like you know, learn online
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: or something.
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: So I just think there's always going to be this
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: relationship with it and what we want, I think from
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: a young age to start those conversations with the kids
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: so that they.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: Can self adjust. Like we're all trying to navigate this.
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: I haven't got a perfect either, and I would definitely
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: be telling my kids out like we're all learning what
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: works for us, what.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Doesn't the idea that social media is evil or AI
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: is evil, or it's like, well, it's not going anywhere
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: for a start, so you probably want to get used
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: to it, especially AI. Yeah, and you know that doesn't
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: mean that it's it's you know, it's more about, as
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: you said, our relationship with it, how we behave around it,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: what we do with it. Yeah, how much we allow
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: it to hijack our brain for our lives.
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: How much is it impacting our lives so impacting us
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: from things that we really want to do. So you're right,
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: it's like that self reflective kind of questions that we
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: can continue to ask ourselves around it. But it's not
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: inherent evil, And you're right, So I think it's good to.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Get on board a hunda, a hundo. So I wanted
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: to ask you something which we haven't touched on before.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: I don't think do you talk to the kids that
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: you work with and the parents of the kids and
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: your kids, do you talk about bullying?
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah? See, this is a really good one.
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: So I noticed for schools, right, they had this like
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: zero bullying policy, And I've never really agreed with that
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: because what it kind of does that it demonizes like bullying,
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: to like these are you know, people are bullying and
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: these are bullies and these are not, and we just
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: have no tolerance versus Look at a workplace, there's always
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: going to be those.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Kind of behaviors.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: I think it's more important to not label people as
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: bullies or not, but rather understand really the root of
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: those kind of behaviors and how we can manage it better. Right,
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: how we can put boundaries in white does that? So
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: I talk to kids a lot about our brains. So
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: when our brain, you know, there's that part of our
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: brain that's a bit like a guard dog, and we
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: perceive danger.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: Because we perceive danger, we want to.
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: Fight back, or we want to run away, or we
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: freeze that kind of stuff.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: I think that the more that they can understand that,
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: and the more we can talk about these boundaries and
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: what we can kind of do when we're in those situations,
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: the more we're equipping them to actually deal with it
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: when they're in the workplace or you know, with adults.
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: So I think we're all capable of using those kind
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: of behaviors, but we're also capable of not and so
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: I really like to separate the person from the behavior
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: and understand that these behaviors are often coming from a
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: place of protection or safety or not feeling safe. And
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: you know how we can, yeah, understand why we do
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: what we do right and put things in place.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to go yeah.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: But really, well, I agree with you.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: But there are bully in school, so yeah, and of course,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: like let's not unfairly label anyone, and we're just talking.
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: Home, there's bullying in school, you mean, yeah, I mean
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: I was talking to a very well known Australian you're
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: both off air today, and her daughter.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Has been horribly I mean the shit that this girl's
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: been subjected to horrendous, to the point where she had
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: to leave the school that she was in. Yeah, right,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: and I mean legit bullying, horrible, horrible, terrible behavior and
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: like in that case, and I know that's not most people,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: and that's not most cases, but that exists. And I
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: don't know whether or not it's getting more airtime Sam
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: and Tif or whether or not it's it's always been there,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: but just we haven't spoken about it as much. But
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: Yah, I mean, and that this is the hardest bit
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: because when we see that kind of behavior, right, and
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: we see like a clear imbalance where someone is really
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: bullying the other, and we have so much emphasy for
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: that person who's getting.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: Bullied, you're going to kind of think of the bully.
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: You're like, someone's really going to be hurting to be
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: able to project that like her. People hurt people, and
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: so you kind of think of in nat child's life,
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: where are they getting bullied, you know, or what's happening
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: for them to feel the need to do that. So
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: it is really hard, I think, because I think often
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: school deals with it in a really like yep, this
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: is a consequence of your behavior, and it's kind of
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: the external stuff.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: But we're still seeing this problem, So what are we missing?
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's hard because at the same like I
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: agree with you, I feel like you're right, well, absolutely right.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Hurt people do hurt people, and understanding where this is
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: coming from matters. But when you're getting kids who are
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: more vulnerable getting like threatened, like threatened by kids who
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: are bigger and stronger, and I fucking hate all that stuff. Now,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: it's I don't know, like, of course we can't. You know,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: the bullies are people too, of course, and we can't,
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: especially when we're talking about ten or twelve or fourteen
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: year olds. It's very it's very complicated. It's very socially, emotionally,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: intellectually complicated. I don't think there's an easy or a
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: quick answer, but yeah, it's it's.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Certainly it's really complex.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Well it's not going away either, it seems.
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: And like you said, though, like kids deserve to feel
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: safe at school, and no one can learn when you're
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: not feeling safe, Like these kids that are getting bullied.
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: You know, if they're constantly fearing for getting hurt or
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: you know that their safety, then they're not going to
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: really be able to take in what they need to
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: and then there's going to be gaps in their learning.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: So I think it's difficult. But then you've got these.
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: Public schools that actually can't expel kids and they need
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: to obviously every kid deserves an education. So how do
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: they put these boundaries in place where we're trying to
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: minimize the harm?
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all round, super complicated, and I mean extremely Like
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: this terrible not long ago, a week or two, maybe
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: a little bit more in Melbourne, this young girl took
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: her own life a thirteen year old girl because of bullying,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: you know. And I'm like, I understand what you're saying,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: but part of me is like, fuck the bullies. It's
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: I know that's not an answer, and that's just being reactive.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: But of course I have this protective gene and I
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: don't like adult bullies. I don't like kid bullies. I
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: just don't like bullies, and I probably need to be Definitely,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: don't put me in charge because I won't create good outcomes.
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: No, I'm agreeing with what you're saying. You know, when
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: you look at like how you know, targeted, some of
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: these behaviors are, it's so triggering, and that's exactly what
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: you do.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: You're like, I want to protect this person.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: But then it's hard because if we kind of switched
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: over to the bully and we probably looked at their
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: history or their childhood or when they were younger, they
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: probably have had experiences of being bullied, and then you'd
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: want to protect them, right, and then we keep going down.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: So I agree, I agree, it's it's it's all right,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: let's finish on something a little bit more hopefully relevant
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: for the average tips getting depressed over there.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: I'm angry and depressed. Now lift it up, please.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you're not a fan. You and I
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: are not fans of bullies, are we, tiff?
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: No?
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: No, So I want to talk about praising kids. I
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: want to know how much is enough and how much
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: is like is there a point that's too much? Doctor Sam?
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Where you know we say to everything they do, oh,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: you're incredible, you're beautiful, that's amazing, when you know it's
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: not always amazing, Like, is there too much?
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: I think so because you think about it, like, you know,
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: kids end up picking up on the tone and how
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: it can kind of come across as fake and in
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: genuine when you're like, oh my god, that is incredible,
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: and imagine that response for every single thing kid's going
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: to kind of like everything will then just be treated
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: the same. So I think it is important to be
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: more I guess, genuine with maybe the comments that we're saying,
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: but it also keep switching it up, you know.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Sometimes yeah, of course you want to be.
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: Like home like that's like, that's great, and you know,
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: talk about I know, the specific bit of a painting
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: that you love, But other times you might want to
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: check in with how they feel and maybe not just
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: jump to like overly praising it too, So I think
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: it's just trying to be a bit more genuine. It's great,
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: positive reinforcement is amazing, but I think at the same
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: time you also want kids to not just seek that
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: out and also think about how do they feel about it,
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: Like how do they feel about the effort right that
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: they put in, or how do they feel about what
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: they've created, or what do they like about it? So
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: always having that balance, if letting them know they feel
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: the support from us and all of that, but also
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: they can hear their own voice too.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: I have this little video in my head of a
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: six year old, you know, taking a picture that they've
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: just torn up to dad, and Dad looks at it
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: and goes, well, that's shit. Try better or try harder
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: to do better. You know. It's like, yeah, I mean,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: And I think also when you're when you're telling them
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: that every thing that they're doing is amazing and brilliant
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: and the best and fantastic, then you're creating a precedent
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: that's probably not healthy because when you don't do that,
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: you know, it's like you're giving them all the dopamine
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: all the time, or all the praise or all the whatever,
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: and then it's yeah, it's it doesn't They don't have
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: the same experience anymore because they get desensitized because it
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter what they do, they get praise and accolades exactly.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: So that's what it doesn't come across as genuine, does it? Then?
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: Like would you want a friend like that? Then no
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: matter what you do, it's like just that one response,
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: that one it's amazing and you're like, Okay, do you
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: really feel that way?
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Think so. I think the more that we can kind
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: of humanize that out of it, the better.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: All Right. My last question is this, and it's quite
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: a deep one or I don't even know. I'm sure
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: you have an idea around this. I don't know what
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: my idea is. But like one of the things that
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: I talk about with grown ups a lot in this
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: philos topical, psychological, you know, kind of self awareness space
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: is around identity who we are and who we think
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: we are and who others think we are. And in
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: the middle of all of the shit that I'm not
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: my job, I'm not my money, I'm not my body,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: I'm not my brand, Like who am I? The identity piece?
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: When do kids start to think about or have an
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: awareness of their identity. Is this or is that something
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: that happens in teenage years.
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: So there's probably definitely different schools of thoughts on this,
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: but kids go through different developmental Like there's one kind
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: of school of thought where they go through developmental crisises,
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: you know, at certain stages. So kids will go through,
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: say when they're toddlers, right of having this autonomy and independence,
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: but then also like kind of like and that's why
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: they like, I want to do it my way, you know,
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: but they're also trying to go like you're having to.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Take the power, so they're kind of in that balance.
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: And so for kids in school years, it's more about
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: the confidence like can I do this here? Know, when
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: they're looking at the achievement side of things. And then
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: usually it's the adolescence, which is the identity who am I?
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: Where do I belong in this world? So in that way,
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: that's usually the crisis of that developmental stage.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: It's usually adolescents, but.
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: Kids start that from the get go, right when they're younger,
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: like they are looking at their place in the world
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: and you know, they're noticing similarities between their parents and
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: that they are the peers and what.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: They like to do.
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: So I think we should always be conscious of that
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: if you know, they're figuring out their identity. But it
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: usually becomes a bit of a crisis for them when
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: they're in adolescents.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Is there a problem? Maybe this was just where I
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: grew up, but a lot of the little girls were
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: told constantly how beautiful they are, how pretty they are.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: It was all about how they looked, ye, not how
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: smart they were or not how good they were at
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: maths or Yeah. There was a lot of emphasis on
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: appearance and a lot of praise or appearance, it seems like.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: And then so maybe am I correct in assuming that
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: they might then identify who they are with what they
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: look like.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: Definitely be cause if you think about childhood, it's like survival,
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: you know, in their mind of how do I get
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: and how do I get love?
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: How do I receive love?
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: So kids notice from a very young age, Okay, when
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: I act in this way, I get a lot of love,
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: and when I don't, I don't really And so then
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: they kind of mold themselves.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: So for kids, yeah, they're getting praise when they look so.
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: Beautiful and they're so pretty, and how you do your
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: hair and how you wear that.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: What are they going to do? It's survival, It's a
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: pattern they learn.
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: So they end up really focusing on that because that's
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: how they get love and that's how they felt the most,
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: you know, safe and accepted.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: So what's the solution or the antidote to that as
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: us go on?
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: So as be as they balance it out really, you know,
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: making note of being able to notice those different things
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: about your child, you know, what makes them them, and
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: being able to identify that. I love how you like
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: you know again, the things that we might be a
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: bit annoidered with as parents. A lot of parents like
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: they just want to do it their way.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: I love that you. You know, you advocate for yourself.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: You know exactly what you want and you want to tell.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: Me about it. You know, you want to make sure
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: that fighting for yourself. That's great. I like that about you.
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: Like being able to actually talk about the different attributes
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: so that we're not just based on the physical stuff.
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: We are looking at what makes them them and we're
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: pointing that out for them and then you know, leaving
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: that open for them to like what do you like
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: about you? Like asking those kind of questions as well,
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: to see what they notice other than just the looks
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: with your pearance stuff.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: That's why we have you, because you're the smartypants. You're
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: the smartypants. Hey, how do people find you? Doctor Sam?
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Where are you at? Website and socials and all of
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: that stuff?
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: Yep, you can find me on Instagram at doctor Samcasey
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: or my website at www dot dotor samcc dot com.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: And where can people find you? Tiff down at Albert
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Parkbeach or.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: In all the places hYP in their bamboo out their
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: back window.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and tifcock dot com.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Tiffcook dot com. Perfect. I will say goodbye a fair
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: but Dr Sam thanks love it and brilliant as always
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Thanks very much for having me on here, Craig