Latest / Nutrition Connection by Dr. Kristen Hicks-Roof / 63: Cathy Carmichael MS, RDN, LDN - COMMUNITY / CHILD NUTRITION
Transcript
- Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Welcome back to the Nutrition Connection Podcast, the show where science meets storytelling. I'm your host, Dr. Kristen Hicksroof, dietitian, researcher, and lifelong advocate of the role of nutrition, health, and wellness. Each episode, I sit down with dietitians and nutrition experts all across the food and hand food and healthcare landscape, leaders whose work touches nearly every aspect of our lives. So whether you're a student, a seasoned professional, or someone simply curious about food, nutrition, and health, this podcast is just for you. The views, thoughts, and comments on this podcast do not reflect those of my employer nor the employers of my guests. So let's go ahead and get connected. I am really excited to bring on a connection of mine. We have crossed pass many times over the past few years. I know you've presented research posters on some of the work that you do. So I just can't wait for you guys to get to know her. We have Kathy Carmichael. She's the project director at Louisiana Team Nutrition with Pennington Biomedical Research Center, LSU. Welcome to the show, Kathy. Cathy Carmichael: Hi, great to be here. Thank you. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: So, like I said, we've kind of crossed paths some over the years and I love what y'all do and you're gonna really dive into it. But it's this community intervention as well as research side of it and really intermingling those together as part of Pennington. So let's start from the beginning though, Kathy. What inspired you and made you want to become a nutrition professional? Cathy Carmichael: Well, my mother is a school nurse. She's a retired school nurse. And so growing up ⁓ cooking and looking at recipes and going to the farmers market was was just part of what we did. And I actually grew up in Sacramento, California. I've lived in Baton Rouge, Louisiana since twenty fourteen. But on Sunday mornings we would go to the Sacramento Farmers Market, which was underneath the freeway. It still is. And it's it was it's tremendous. ⁓ with the variety of fruits and vegetables that are available, getting to meet the farmer. So that was really important to me. I also had two older brothers and ⁓ they were athletes and I love to practice making milkshakes and sandwiches and casseroles and I remember having a bread machine in the early 90s and I would make ⁓ a variety of things. And so but I would definitely say it was my mother who influenced me and she would always say, Now what will you give that plate? Is that plate an A for color? Meaning what colors are on your dinner plate. If everything is white and brown, you're not gonna get an A from Grandma Pat, right? She still does that if we go home ⁓ for the holidays. ⁓ yeah, yeah. So ⁓ I mean there's always a salad at dinner time and talking about the best corn in California and the best tomatoes. ⁓ so she was definitely an an influen influenced me. In in fact to go into dietetics ⁓ as an undergraduate, I went Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Does she? Cathy Carmichael: I did not pass go. I w I was on a mission to do that. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: That's awesome. I know, you know, I used to live in Jacksonville, Florida, and their farmers market is also under the bridge, which at first I was like, This is crazy. But I love going to farmers markets. I feel like you get that exposure. You're right. Two farmers and all the produce or meat or whatever they're selling, you know, lotions and hand creams and everything. Cathy Carmichael: Okay. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. And we're so lucky it comes full circle because here at Pennington on Thursday mornings, the Red Stick Farmers Market comes to our parking lot and sets up year round. So I know all the farmers when I show up there at eight o'clock. Sometimes I have to hurry back to my meeting because I've been chatting with the farmers about the eggplant or the cucumber or whatever they might be ⁓ selling that day. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: That really is full circle. That's crazy. That is really crazy. So let's talk about your journey. You were like, okay, I'm going straight there. I know I want to go into nutrition, inspired by your mom. But what has that path looked like? So what you know, what jobs have you held ultimately to get you over to Pennington before you became project director? Cathy Carmichael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I I got my undergraduate degree at Berkeley, at UC Berkeley. And I will say the the biological science ⁓ requirements were challenging for me. So whenever I speak with students, I'm like, you can do it. Just get through organic chemistry. You can do it. And ⁓ I had a mentor there, Nancy Hudson, ⁓ who she inspired me to go make sure I got enough practical ⁓ application work. And so I actually worked in on-campus dining at UC Berkeley, ⁓ at Ramona's Cafe in Worcester Hall. And ⁓ that was a really great experience for me. She said, in your summers, you need to make sure you can get all the experience you can. I work for the Office of Aging in Sacramento. I did a NACOFS internship, which is the National Association of College and University Food Services. So I went to Michigan State University for a summer and I learned about how to serve 3,000 students in Brody Hall at MSU. So I really had to work hard because I might have had a bad grade or two at Berkeley. But I recovered. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: can't speak. My grades were not I was eliminated from probably eighty percent of the internships to apply to because my grades didn't meet it. So I I feel that vibe. Cathy Carmichael: Yeah, but I Exactly. ⁓ and then I ended up doing my internship at the Medical College of Virginia in Richmond. I really wanted to do an internship at a teaching hospital. And at the time you did not have to have your you didn't have to do a master's program combined. So that was in the year 2000. I finished, I got my RD. I ended up coming back to Sacramento and ⁓ going back to the hospital where I had worked as a diet clerk in the summers. As like an RD eligible, but I decided that clinical nutrition, clinical dietetics really wasn't for me. So my very first job, official job as a dietitian, was at the Native American Health Center in Fruitvale, Oakland. And I worked under a woman named Chris Wayhunt, and she taught me so much about seeing patients and also about working with a very specific culture, and that was the American Indian Alaska Native culture. ⁓ We served a lot of Clients from tribes all over the country because Oakland was a training center after relocation. We served the California Perinatal Services Program. We also had a wellness center called Healthy Nations Wellness Center. So I really got, you know, my feet wet doing that. And I did that for a couple of years. And then I decided that I wanted to go back to graduate school. So I went to the Freedman School of Nutrition Science and Policy. And that's another kind of interesting story. ⁓ Is I was working in Oakland. And Nancy Hudson, my ⁓ mentor, had called me and she said, Jean Goldberg from Tufts is gonna be on campus speaking to the undergraduates. I think you should come to the meeting that's this afternoon. So I'm like, I don't want to tell my boss that I'm gonna quit if I want to go to graduate school. So I think I said, I need to go to the dentist or something. And I drove from Oakland over to ⁓ Berkeley and I got to listen to her talk about the nutrition communication program. At the Freedman School, and I was just, I mean, starstruck. I was like, this is for me. Turns out that Jean had a reservation at Chez Panis, and she did not know how to get there. She was at Morgan Hall, which is the nutrition building at Berkeley, and she didn't have a car because she was traveling. And I was like, ⁓ I can show you. I could drive you. I'd be happy to. And ⁓ we ended up walking from Morgan Hall down the hill on Shattock Avenue, and I dropped her off at Shea Panny. And I'm pretty sure that was my interview. and ⁓ so that was and then I applied and I took the GRE and did all the things and then I packed up my stuff and moved to Boston. And Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: That's crazy. You know, I always think things happen for a reason, you know, and I feel like it's constantly coming up when and when I'm talking with people on the podcast, is like I just kind of said yes to an opportunity, like, or I just went out of my way and said, Yeah, I'll help you. You know, I don't know if I I know where I you're going, so I'll come along with me, you know. And I do think th there's those small instances can add up to bigger things, right? Because you got to know you but got to build the rapport, which we know is so important in Cathy Carmichael: Yeah, yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: professional relationship. So so you went to Friedman and what did that look like? Cathy Carmichael: Yeah. I mean in and that that's the only school I applied to. I didn't apply to another graduate school because I was like, that's the only place I want to go. If I don't get in, it's not meant to be. So I took the GRE, I paid my however much was, I got in. ⁓ I worked on some amazing studies, the Shape Up Somerville study, I worked on the data collection. ⁓ that was Dr. Economos' study. ⁓ I also worked at the New England Baptist Hospital, ⁓ because I was trying to make extra money and I would wear my walkman and I would ⁓ while it's up the hill and the lady in the diet clerk office, she could never remember my name. So she just called me Bebop and I told my kids that story because she would always see me when she was driving up the hill. ⁓ I worked at Ethos Home Care for the Elderly there. So I because I was a graduate student and I already was a dietitian, I was always looking for side hustles just to help make a little extra money while I was going to school. And those opportunities turned out to be terrific. Like they weren't the stakes were not that high because I didn't have to achieve so many hours for them. They kind of just needed an extra RD to help out, go make home visits, ⁓ help do some ⁓ data collection in the storeroom in the hospital. So just kind of little jobs here and there. ⁓ but then I ended up finishing, had a great two years, and I think I just hadn't figured out what I wanted to do. So I moved back to Sacramento. and I worked for a very short time for the California State WIC branch. ⁓ and that was actually the first time I ever had my own apartment in downtown Sacramento. The first time I ever had a queen size bed. I think. ⁓ and that just wasn't for me. ⁓ and then a job opened up at the Sacramento Native American Health Center, kind of a sister clinic to that of the one in Oakland. And ⁓ Britta Guerrero, who is the CEO, is still there. And she interviewed me and ⁓ she said, Yeah, there's an office downstairs. I said, Okay, I'm ready. And I got to kind of be the leader that I had learned from my mentor from Chris Wayhunt. And I was kind of like a one-man band. I saw the patients for medical nutrition therapy. I taught the classes. I cooked the lunch for the healthy eating is traditional lunch, where we had the most amazing raffles. Let me tell you. We would have our the women and men who would make their wares, their jewelry, ⁓ would donate them to our raffles. So people would come. to learn it from the ophthalmologist who was my guest speaker because they really wanted to win at the raffle. ⁓ but those yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: mean that's a good y it when you're doing community level interventions, which I know you're a community nutrition expert, you gotta have a draw somehow. So that's that's good. Cathy Carmichael: Yeah. Yeah, I mean those lunches were legendary. I mean, we would pack the house at 20th and J. And if you ever get the chance, if you're in Sacramento, go by 20th and J Street. The Sacramento Native American Health Center has really evolved. In fact, they have another clinic in South Sacramento and a community garden. I am so proud of them for all the great work that they have done and ⁓ really helped me lay the foundation for my career. And I learned just as much from my peers and my career as I did from my patients. And I still have many patients that I can hear them speaking in my mind. ⁓ I was pregnant with all three of my children while working there. And patients would be like, You're still pregnant? And I would say, This is a different baby. You need to come in more often, sir. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: That's hilarious. I mean that it it does go to show though, like it's a way that, you know, you found it you've it sounds like you really found your passion, right? I even s feel the the passion coming through when you're talking. And was that just because you enjoyed working with the native population or did you just really like that, you know, leadership role, or maybe it was a combination of the two? Cathy Carmichael: Yeah. It it really I mean, I think I learned to really love the community when I was in Oakland. And then to be able to come full circle after going to Tufts and learning just I mean, I took biostats and I took Epi and I took all these really important classes that helped bring full circle because when I was in Sacramento, I was in charge of the diabetes audit, which is part of the special diabetes program for Indians, which is underneath the Department of Health and Cir Health and Human Services. So that became my charge where we would report that data to the California area office and then they would report it to the National Indian Health Service database. And that was making sure that we could get all the standards of care completed for our patients. Did you get your foot check? Did you get your EKG? All the things. ⁓ so no it was it was truly it was very hard to leave. Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Yeah. So did you go from that into Pennington? Cathy Carmichael: Yeah, so my husband is an Alzheimer's disease researcher, Owen Carmichael. He also works here at Pennington. and he was at UC Davis prior to coming to Pennington LSU. And ⁓ so when we moved out, I had three little tiny kids and I worked as like a temporary employee here at Pennington and helped with some of their studies with the Army. And ⁓ I started working for Dr. Catherine Champagne. And then in 2014, Dr. Champagne ⁓ And the Louisiana Department of Education created an interagency agreement where Pennington would help the Louisiana Department of Education Division of Nutrition Support with some of their school nutrition projects, including building a website, help to support their training, and a host of other tasks. And so that kind of fell in my lap when I got here. and we built the website, Louisiana Fit Kids, and built the brand. And I kind of feel like I've morphed into a school. nutrition promotion specialist. That's my title. But there are many similarities between the culture that I worked with in the American Indian community and the school nutrition professionals in Louisiana. And I'm very passionate about helping them. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Yeah, I mean When can you explain to the listeners like what is what's unique about Pennington? Cathy Carmichael: So Pennington is a biomedical research center that is looking to find solutions from cells, solutions to health problems, from cells to society. So we span that whole gamut. We have professors and scientists here and faculty doing basic science, running gel electrophoresis, ⁓ doing animal model research. We have our own metabolic kitchen. We have A residence where people can live when we're doing studies. We have a huge epidemiology group. And then all the way on the other spectrum is the society piece. And that's kind of where I fit in. And ⁓ a lot of people don't know about school nutrition and how, you know, the buying power of school nutrition and the amount of food that is served to our kids every single day. So I do think even though it's kind of a weird thing to say you work at a biomedical research center on school lunch projects, it's pretty important when you think about the cells to the society spectrum. ⁓ so that's kind of the the the family tree of how we fit. The funding from the United States Department of Agriculture goes to LDOE, and LDOE ⁓ worked with Pennington to support these objectives that we have. And team nutrition was an extra grant. Pardon? Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Well, and when you think about it, yeah, when you think about school nutrition, I mean New York City, for example, they serve a million meals a day in New York City. And that that's one of the largest school districts in the country. So obviously that's massive, but you have these massive school districts and smaller school districts, but you have to have the infrastructure, the education, the training, the knowledge. So let's talk a little bit about what do you do as project director as at Louisiana Team Nutrition. Cathy Carmichael: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Like what does that look like? Cathy Carmichael: So Louisiana Team Nutrition is like underneath Louisiana Fit Kids, but it was a special ⁓ grant that we are awarded in 20. Well, this is our second ⁓ Team Nutrition grant. In 2022, I believe, we are awarded a grant that was focusing on developing new recipes using local products. And that includes everything from working on procuring those products, whether it's using local rice to put in a rice dish, ⁓ or Figuring out how to teach the school nutrition professionals how to prepare these new recipes. So that was the first project that we did under the Team Nutrition Umbrella. And then the second project ⁓ was focused more on nutrition education and technical assistance and training for school nutrition professionals. It's a big project that includes many components, everything from nutrition education to training the school nutrition professionals to also doing Beautification with nutrition messaging on the cafeteria walls. Everybody likes to talk about that one. ⁓ Because it's it's very visual, you know. It's it's more challenging to talk about, well, how do we procure this vegetable and how do we chop it up and how do we prepare it and how do we put it on? There's many like, but when you go into a cafeteria and you've seen that that someone cares about what it looks like, it it just creates a great dialogue about the importance of. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Love that. Cathy Carmichael: space and place. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Well, and I I mean, back when I was in school, it was always you eat with your eyes just as much with your mouth, right? And so having that visibility of whether it's the plate that you talked about, you know, with your mom about okay, what's the plate rating? I think that is so important as we think about when we eat with our eyes. Like, is it a very bland looking plate and is the atmosphere exciting or is it kind of dulling, drowning out, you know? I think that I I feel like there's a lot of Cathy Carmichael: Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: alignment here, even when you think about hospital systems and how they're like dreary and white, but then you go to the pediatric floors and they're purples and orange and vibrants. And it's really, why do we not adopt that in every facet? You know, I so I think that's interesting. And you're also, I don't know if you want to talk about it all, like you're a carotenoid researcher and you use vegetar in some of your work. I was gonna say I love the vegimeter stuff. Cathy Carmichael: Right. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yes. I didn't talk about the veggie meter yet. There's like so many things. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: So let's talk a little bit about what do you do in your day to day and how do how does that research play a role? Cathy Carmichael: Yeah, I did want to bring up one thing when we're talking about bright colors. So we did these two trainings, culinary trainings, but I actually called it the Louisiana Team Nutrition Leadership Institute because I really wanted to bring in school nutrition professionals who could learn things to take back to their school. So we did one up at Louisiana Tech in Ruston, where we had about 30 participants and one at LSU. And we Taught many different skills, but one thing we did is we blanched broccoli. So if you have broccoli, you know, a whole pile of broccoli, and you just put it in boiling water for like 30 seconds, it magically turns bright green. And so I actually did that this morning because today I'm going to the Louisiana Farm to Schools Institute to talk about team nutrition. And we're gonna make Tzeki dip and ranch dip. And I wanted them to have something good to dip the That in. So anyway, when but I brought some of the broccoli that hasn't been blanched, and it's kind of gray looking, but then you know if you cook it too much, it turns too gray. Anyway, so I'm a fan of the brightly colored vegetables, but bringing Frost Circle to the Veggie meter. So we had a student from Sanford University, which is in Alabama, visit us two summers ago. And she said, ⁓ we did this study using the veggie meter. And I was like, What? What is that? And I was so interested. In her work that she did with the professor there, that I did some research and I worked with Dr. Champagne and I said, I think I think we need one at Pennington. I think we need a veggie meter. I think this really fits in well with what we're doing with promoting fruits and vegetables through team nutrition, and it's an objective way to measure. So the veggie meter, ⁓ for those of you that don't know, is a device that uses reflection spectroscopy to measure carotenoids through. your skin. So you put your finger in the device, it puts a little pressure on there and shines a light and gives a score between zero and eight hundred. And so we were in Poincope Parish where we did a study. We have a protocol at Pennington. The protocol is specific to working in schools and working with school nutrition professionals. Those are the only people that our protocol can work with right now. And I really like that because it's very targeted. ⁓ so we did a project in ⁓ Point Kippee Parish with my partner group, Eat Move, Grow. They're nutrition educators. They're a nonprofit, part of the Health Enrichment Network. And we showcased fruit and vegetable heroes, and we matched up the fruit and vegetable heroes, which was served on the line. So if cool cucumber was the guy of the day, then ⁓ we served cucumbers on the line. We had cucumber stickers, we had messages on the PA system. And so at that particular school, we were able to do a time zero. veggie meter analysis and then the time the next time when we came back about it was about two and a half months later and we're in a consortium in the United States with other researchers that are using the veggie meter and we always learn from them. You know, we've we did another project where all the scores went down. And so ⁓ that and I think we just didn't control for enough variables. ⁓ but we did do a really interesting study that I submitted an abstract. I'm hoping it gets in. ⁓ but we worked with our partner, Dr. Simone Camel, El Louisiana Tech, who has two veggie meters. And so everyone's like, well, can you do a study where using different veggie meters? And it's kind of like we weren't really sure. So while we were having our training for our school nutrition professionals, we invited them to be participants ⁓ and we tested veggie meter A, B, and C against each other. Every participant had their fingers scanned nine times so we can compare them. And ⁓ the results were conclusive that you can that they were similar enough that you could use these two different devices. And so it's been super fun because as you know, carotenoids are found in brightly colored fruits and vegetables, your sweet potatoes, your carrots, your broccoli. But they're, you know, they're not really high in bananas. So I always try to like keep it real for people. I'm like, if you eat a lot of bananas, that's amazing. Keep eating bananas. But that's not necessarily high in carotenoids. So I think the summary statement with VeggieMeter, with our work of Vegemeter, is stay tuned. ⁓ there's more coming, there's big plans, ⁓ but it's super exciting. And all of these things I've talked about, you can look at our website, LouisianaFitKids.com, you can click research, and you can learn more about the veggie meter there. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Well and and I will link those in the show notes so you'll be able to access those. You know, I think the veggie meter is such a cool scientific technology because let's say even you're a clinical dietitian or a community dietitian or whatever. What if we had this tool where we could actually measure carotenoid intake, right? You're thinking brightly covered fruits and vegetables, which are things that we encourage our patients and you know participants all the time. Now, does it have to be a research context? Cathy Carmichael: Cool. Yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: No, not necessarily. You could go and show some health outcome data when you're in a clinical practice. So like that's where I see that tool almost, you know, when the BIA was kind of getting some traction. Like there's other ways that you can measure weight that are not just on a scale, right? And rather than just a food frequency questionnaire, here's a supplement to a food frequency questionnaire. Cathy Carmichael: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Totally. It it just creates great dialogue because everyone is competitive and they're like, What was your score? What do you eat? You know what I mean? ⁓ I know in Japan the device is used a lot in grocery stores. And so they actually post up with their veggie meter and as people are entering and exiting the store and then they do some, you know, rudimentary graphs, which are pretty cool. They just give people like a sticky dot and then they have it they put it up. If you got a 250, you put it on there and then it's just like the big graph of everybody who's visited that day. So I would like to go to Japan someday and meet the veggie meter researchers over there. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Well, and think you you know, science and tools and technologies, they take a lot of time to go into communities and practices and retails and you know, all these things. But I think when you're building a proof of concept and you're showcasing, hey, here's measurable ways to detect differences, especially in today's era where wearables and you know data like people want data. They, you know, they're putting on these glucose monitors, whether they have diabetes or not, because they want to actually see changes in blood sugar. So they're wearing the rings. They're tracked. Cathy Carmichael: But I think the Samsung watch ⁓ actually has ⁓ the capability to measure carotenoids. You flip it over and you put your thumb on it. So I know that there's some potential opportunities to compare the veggie meter that we have with that type of device. So, you know, that might be something that we'll see ⁓ in the near future, which would be pretty amazing. And then we could give all of our school nutrition professionals one of those watches. That's what I like. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: ⁓ yeah. Right. Right. Well and then you can actually measure things beyond just subjective data of, ⁓ yeah, I'm eating more fruits and vegetables. It's like, well, we could gotta measure. Now it's not a perfect accuracy like you said. Right. Cathy Carmichael: Under view meeting? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's the thing. It's like it's still evolving, which is kind of fun that we're kind of on the cutting edge of that. So I I appreciate that. And it's kind of like this thing. I'm working on my projects for LDOE and team nutrition, and then kind of always on the train with me as ⁓ veggie meter, what could we do? Can we do that kind of pilot study? And that's kind of how we were just really using our resources wisely by doing the device comparison with our partner up in the northern part of the state. So Always and I think for future dietitians, like that's kind of like what you've always got to be thinking about is how can you use your resources wisely to, you know, get things done that you've always been wanting to do. Well maybe you can, just think creatively. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: When we've given a lot of examples of kind of the translation of science, but how does scientific data and evidence impact what you do in your day to day role? Cathy Carmichael: That's a really good question. ⁓ I am very interested in figuring out how to get kids to eat the food that we serve them on the tray and how to have trash cans that are not healthy. I want healthy kids, not healthy trash cans. And so when we're looking at the evidence, it has to be: well, what are the most nutritious foods that we can serve our kids? That they'll actually eat that tastes good and look good. And I think right now there's so much in the media and in the scientific research about ultra-processed foods, right? And so reducing those in the school nutrition menu is going to be a very daunting challenge. ⁓ and so I think we have to really help translate the science on what really is a processed food. So the minute that you shred a carrot. it becomes partially processed, right? And the pineapple in the can in juice, you know, that's still a great food to eat. So I think this is where the nutrition communicators out in the world have to make sure that they have their science correct when translating it. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Yeah, you know, it's it's a tangled web, this ultra processed, highly processed, whatever. But I agree with you in the sense of so let's say they even reduced or eliminated ultra processed food. You also have to think about the entire infrastructure, right? New recipes, new ⁓ recipes that meet guidelines that people are gonna eat, that taste good, right? And so there's like so many layers to this conversation. That's why we need researchers and community intervention. Cathy Carmichael: Yes. ⁓ definitely. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: and education and and you know, leadership training, just like what y'all do to be able to meet the ever changing demands. I mean, school meals, geez, I remember when I was a kid, like there was not as much strict guidelines and yeah, we had all sorts of stuff. I love school meals. I mean, I remember Cathy Carmichael: Yeah. ⁓ I mean I at at Sutterville Elementary School in Sacramento, California, when you were in the fifth grade, you got to work in the cafeteria. I can still remember it. I got to do it. Like you got so many weeks throughout the year if you volunteered. And I have vivid memory. I mean, Sutterville is still there. It's down the street from where my parents live. I don't know if they still let kids do that, but I mean, getting to see like how the sausage is made, no pun intended, is, you know, ⁓ really important. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Yeah, well, and because the infrastructure has changed so much, you have to revert back, right? Like now you have school massive school districts that don't even have kitchens. You know, so how so I think there's a lot of layers and we can get into that, but I don't want to today because we gotta be mindful of time as well. So what has been something you're most proud of, or that's been your favorite part of your career so far? Cathy Carmichael: Right. Yeah. No, that's Yeah. Of course. ⁓ gosh. ⁓ well I have just met some really terrific people along the way that I feel like are all part of my continuum of being a dietitian and understanding how to help people with their wellness and how to prevent chronic disease. ⁓ Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Probably a lot. Cathy Carmichael: And so I think I've had some some excellent mentors along the way and then also some excellent cheerleaders. You know, I have my one friend Charlotte Block. She's my roomie at Fenty. And so we always room together. And so, like, I look forward to Fency just to visit with my my BFFRD as much as I do to go to the ⁓ conferences. And then I love running into people from my background. I in fact, I was at Fenty last year and I was like in the exhibit hall. And a friend of mine from the Richmond Medical College of Virginia Dietetic Internship was like, Kathy, is that you? And I was like, Yes. ⁓ and so I I think that and I'm a people person. I like visiting with people and learning about people. And ⁓ so I would definitely say that has been a highlight. ⁓ and I've enjoyed my time here at Pennington, especially when I get out of the office and get to go and ⁓ be in schools and and work with some really terrific colleagues. So Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: I I love Fenty because it's just yeah, I I used to call it with my students. It's Dietician Disneyland. Like you get to see all the all your friends, new products, new information. But if you've never been to Fenty, I highly recommend you go just to experience it. It really is remarkable. And the more often you go, you know, and to your point, Kathy, too, you connect with people over and over, people who go every year. Like I remember, you know, I randomly roomed Fenty used to offer Cathy Carmichael: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: a rooming match where yeah so I'm still friends with my random Ruby match in Nashville back in like 2016 or something. I'm still friends with her. And so it's nice when you have some of these connection points whether you go to the receptions or the events like so I always do love that. So Kathy, what suggestions or tips do you have for someone who's maybe interested in a career path like yours or to be able to have a role where you're in community s you know, some research, education, leadership, like what tips do you have? Cathy Carmichael: Well, I I would say don't be afraid to ⁓ to try things that you don't think that you're good at. I guess I guess I would say. So like when I used to work at the Native American Health Center in both Oakland and Sacramento, this was before there was like Canva. Okay. So and this was before there was, you know, really texting. And so a paper flyer was still very valuable. And I learned, well, what information do I need to get my participants to attend my programming. What's how big does the font need to be? What's the readability need to be? In fact, I went to New Mexico to the Indian Health Service for a training on writing literature in an easy-to-read format. So that's something that as a dietitian I never really realized that I needed. But to this day, I make stuff on Canva now and I I'm like, I'm like a quasi-graphics person. I highlight the Louisiana tray of the week every week with a different school meal. But I'm the one designing that on there. But that stems from way back in the day when I was using ⁓ some type of Microsoft publisher to make flyers. And I'll never forget I didn't have a color printer back in Sacramento and I borrowed the one of the dentist. So I wrote a grant to General Mills and I got like $500 and I bought a color printer. And I didn't have to go to the dentist because it was a federally qualified healthcare center where the dental office was right next to me. And so that was like the first grant I ever got. And that was because there was something that I needed. And so it kind of goes all the way to team nutrition. When I I called up the Department of Ed, I'm like, ha, y'all, why aren't we applying for this? We can do it. So I know that's kind of talking about both the practical application of building flyers. But also if there's something that you think needs to get done and you're kind of nervous and you don't think you have the skills to do it, you probably do. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Think, I mean, dietitians and nutrition experts are trained on so much. I don't think we give ourselves enough credit. You know, and that's one of the things I love on the podcast is bringing on nutrition experts that span, you know, deep into agriculture in terms of being farming, all the way to nutrition communicators and in the clinic and in the community and in sports and all these different areas. Because we are all trained the same way, you know, whether you're in a food industry. Cathy Carmichael: Right. Right. Yeah. Although I don't think they make ⁓ take accounting anymore. That was tough. I took accounting at the hospital school. That was a tough one. But I it was important. And quantitative chemistry. I don't know if they have to take quantitative chemistry anymore. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: I didn't have to take it county, thank God. Although That's so funny. I th and you know, every program is different, but I think in general we have so many of these translatable skills that we can showcase and be the conduit to say, Hey, here's this opportunity, whether it's a funding opportunity or it's, hey, here's a better way we can measure in our clinical facility to give the ROI back to, you know, the the administration. Cathy Carmichael: I know, I'm just easy. Right. Yeah. Well, and the other thing that I would also recommend is know your audience. The two the two other pieces of wisdom I would offer is know your audience and do not reinvent the wheel. So if someone already has an amazing recipe, call them and say, May we showcase your recipe? Don't retype it with your logo. That's a waste of time. I mean, and also if you're pr putting out information for a specific group, who are they? Do your research. You know, in and if you're gonna ask them to do something like in the public health like, eat more fruits and vegetables, we'll be specific, right? It's really easy to say eat more fruits and vegetables, but that's not specific. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Well, that's why I feel like dietary guidance is so hard to follow. It's like, all right, I'll eat more. I ate one blackberry this morning. You know what I mean? While I was packing my kids lunch, I'm like, I know I need to eat fruits and vegetables. So I was like snacking while I was doing it. So, Kathy, last question here. If you had a crystal ball, what do you think is coming next in nutrition? Cathy Carmichael: I know. I worked on a Goodness. Well, I would like to see what's gonna happen with the veggie meter because I feel like there's so much potential on it getting like better. So as far I I would like to see ⁓ how we can use devices like that in public health in the community that are very accurate and we can trust them with their the results. ⁓ you know, and I I do trust the results now, but I think they can be more finite. ⁓ so I definitely think that ⁓ not just the veggie meter, but maybe other modalities. ⁓ Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Well, I think that actually overlays really well with Tufts and kind of your training because they have the whole food is medicine institute. And really when you think right, when if you think food is medicine, veggie meter is food that could be medicine, right? Like I get that people are like, ⁓ I don't like that language, but you could measure, okay, I can see a a physiological difference when people eat more fruits and vegetables. Cathy Carmichael: It that new toolkit is just phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well Right. Well, and the other thing I just think, like the cautionary tale of the future with nutrition is also we are just on information overload right now. And with all of the influencers on social media, you know, I have three teenagers and sometimes they come home and tell me what they've seen on Instagram. And I'm like, ⁓ my goodness. ⁓ let's really look at the science and see, you know, what what is the truth? ⁓ and so I think we need more people to translate the science and disseminate information that is backed by the research. And so that's what I I and I think we have to figure out how to do that together ⁓ over time. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Yeah, I'm I think that is a great way to close up here. Science communications is so important. And as nutrition professionals, we are educated in the science, both in continuing education and our roots in evidence-based medicine. So I think that's a great segue. And I always believe people should cite their references, give credible information, whether you're doing a TikTok video or you're boot doing a recipe of you making a claim, like. Put the data behind there because it gives a whole nother layer of credibility for nutrition professionals versus an everyday influencer. So thank you so much, Kathy, for coming on the show. And if you like the podcast, make sure you like, subscribe, leave a review. But most importantly, check out the next episode because every episode, I bring on a different dietitian and nutrition expert to share their story and give you tips and advice on how to be successful. Cathy Carmichael: Certainly.