Latest / Between The Rounds Official / Mastering the Amateur Field, World Cup China Breakdown & The Pro Crossover Debate with Gráinne Walsh
Transcript
- Sarah C: Welcome back to Between the Rounds. I'm your host, Sarah Cunningham, and today I want to talk specifically about amateur boxing. Now I know there's a lot of sport happening in New York these past couple of weeks, and honestly, the city has come alive. It's been really amazing to be around it all. what also took place this week was the World Boxing Tournament in China, ⁓ something I wanted to spend some time breaking down so before we close out, there was just one topic that myself and Grainne did touch on that I wanted to bring back for open debate here, Grainne Walsh is an elite amateur boxer with Team Ireland, competing at the 65 KG division and part of Ireland High Performance Team. because ⁓ there is a trap most amateur boxers fall into, and that is very much that they study a lot of historic professional boxing. So when we think about the pay-per-view, superstars, the stuff that gets millions of views, and honestly, it's easy to access on YouTube and ⁓ other major platforms. Grainne, thank you so much for joining me today. But that is ultimately the wrong library to focus all your efforts in on. I'm not saying there's not a place for it, there absolutely is, but to master the amateur landscape, you really have to be watching elite amateur contenders in live tournament brackets because that's where the real technical evolution is happening right now. Gráinne: Thanks for having me. Delighted to be here and looking forward to the chat. Sarah C: For anyone who doesn't follow the ranking system closely, ⁓ what does this tournament actually mean for Irish boxers in terms of LA twenty eight? Gráinne: well all of these World Cups, there was one in April in Brazil, this is the second one of the year, and the third one will be in November in Uzbekistan. and these tournaments are an opportunity for people to get ranking points, which essentially will give you ⁓ seeding points terms of next year's qualification tournaments. If you have a certain amount of points it might might give you a seed and give you a better draw. Sarah C: So today we're gonna spend some time breaking down some of my ringside research from the World Boxing Cup in China. Gráinne: Essentially it's a chance to get more fights, to mix with the best in the world and the standard it's absolutely unreal. And a lot of the time people see Team Ireland coming home with no medals and don't actually see the bigger picture of what we're trying to build. You're obviously part of that as well and seeing the work that goes in day in, day out and the bigger picture. So, all that hopefully will come to light next year. And this year was always going to be a building block year anyway. Sarah C: So when you scrub elite amateur tournament tape, you're looking for a number of things. The first one for me is styles. So really looking for how do top tier international operators establish range and rhythm? next one for me is tactics, those micro adjustments that we see, ⁓ rhythm disruption, the second phase attacks, the setup to their attacks, and then the corner correction that happens between rounds, really listening to what the coaches ⁓ directing their boxer adjust into. For sure, what was the energy like around the squad heading into the tournament for this particular cycle? And then finally, judging variability. Quite often we see it even at the domestic level and at the national level, panel might reward aggressive forward pressure and another scores clean, unanswered counterpunching from the outside. ⁓ at world level, you have to be able to read the judges early and be able to adjust in real time. ⁓ that's the beauty of live scoring because it gives you that ability to adjust based on what you're seeing the judges scoring for. Gráinne: Yeah, it was a quick turnaround, to be honest, from from Brazil. They were home, like had a week off to regroup and then they were straight back in for a four week block and then they were gone to China straight away. So you don't have much time for hanging around feeling sorry for yourself or any of that. ⁓ but ⁓ all of us wanted a busier year. I'm obviously in a different kind of ⁓ battle at the moment, but it's great to see them getting those opportunities. ⁓ and then off the back of that, like I was speaking to John Mackey, speaking to some of the coaching staff, they've learned so much. Sarah C: we'll work through a couple of different insights and ⁓ I'll go deep on a few fighters that caught my during the ⁓ world boxing tournament in China. Gráinne: The girls, I've been obviously I'm very close with the girls, so I've been chatting away to them and like they're coming away full of enthusiasm for what's to come as well because although they didn't get what they went for, like when you come home, even after having a couple of fights, a couple of spars, you mix it with the best, like you're gonna learn so much from that. Sarah C: so first off is management. If there's one technical area that separates good international boxers from elite ones, it's range management. ⁓ So really how you it, how you maintain it, and how you break it down when your opponent has that locked. and there are plenty of at this tournament who are very effective at managing their range. ⁓ Some who show you how to hold it, some who show you how to dismantle it. this is year one of a rebuild ⁓ in the programming and kind of just the approach to the amount of ⁓ tournaments that you guys are doing. ⁓ Are there any in particular that you're seeing kind of that development play out really nicely? Gráinne: Yeah, like I'm seeing growth every single time I watch my teammates. Like even in the gym day to day, week to week, you see so much growth from them. And then to be able to transfer like competitive spars where you're performing at your best and bring them into an environment where all the lights are on you, there's nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, that's what real growth I think is. And like you can't expect a young, inexperienced team to be coming home with ten medals. Like it's it's not gonna happen, especially at world level. If you go to multi nations or Sarah C: First up is Wu Yu. She's the reigning Paris Olympic champion. And she won gold on home soil for this tournament. And you'll notice in the clip that I share that she uses Subtle shifts and stance switching to keep her opponent guessing. So the moment they're attempting to reset, she plants her attack. she really capitalizes on that transitional moment before they can recover. And that's all in the range management that she's able to establish and really understand. Gráinne: Whatever, it's more ⁓ more of a possibility 'cause you're not competing against the world's best. But these tournaments, like medals are not just handed out. It's you really have to fight for them. So, obviously Daina a an amazing tournament as well, and she she lost against the a lot of them lost against the eventual gold medalists. So, like again, they're they're things that the wider general public won't see because they'll just see no medals coming home. But like on another day, on another way that draw could be made, they could be coming home or might not meet that person until the finals. And like that's boxing. It's the d like a lot of the luck is actually in the draw. And I don't care what anyone says, in any walk of life, in sport, in normal life, you need a certain rub of the grain to get you over the line sometimes. And boxing is definitely no different to that, Sarah C: So a similar positional discipline runs through Lorenzo Patricio from USA. ⁓ So he has the ability to dominate center of the ring really early on and then lets his hands go in sharp combinations and controls the pace throughout. ⁓ You can see him managing that range really well. And then closer to home, I got a chance to take a look at some of Team Ireland's performances. Dean Clancy, for me, was a masterclass at utilizing range to completely deny his opponent any entry into his attacks. when you look at his opening performance against Hong Kong, he managed range flawlessly with a touch-touch move pattern on both front and back foot. ⁓ He's using the jab to keep the opponent completely out of attacking range. And resulted in a dominant referee stopping the contest in round two. Then there's Tadhg Go'Donnell at 75 kg. Now, this was a textbook for long range execution against Kazakhstan. ⁓ He had sharp shot selection, excellent bodywork, and he was an elite operator managing that range and distance and kept the fight on the outside throughout. And then finally, touching on Beatrice Ferreira. ⁓ Now, she is the blueprint for being able to break long-range outside counter punches. what I love as well about just in particular like my exposure to the Irish coaching team as well is that ⁓ you all share the same perspective on it, right? It isn't a case that ⁓ you're for not getting, ⁓ you further in the tournament. It is truly about their seeing it as the development process. ⁓ And long as you're doing what they have asked of you, that's all they care about. You know, and obviously you'll go through the reviews after of like whereas there's ⁓ areas improvement. I'm curious to kind of hear your thoughts on on that and and your perspective on kind of the coaching feedback. Gráinne: I think Damien Kennedy in particular has the perfect balance he knows when you need an arm over the shoulder. He need he knows exactly when you need a bit of a stern word or a kick up the arse for want of a better term. like he knows exactly because he understands each individual and it's not just, you know, I'm a sixty five kilo boxer. No, I'm Grainne I'm a human being. He knows exactly Sarah C: And the mistake many fighters make against length is landing the entry shot and then stopping dead. So they'll only execute the first phase and then add nothing on behind it. ⁓ And a long-range fighter will reset and control the clean from the outside every single time. So there might just be single attacks, ⁓ but that's all they need to win the fight. Gráinne: What makes me tick what w when I need to be led down a different path. And I think that is such a skill that like a a top coach possesses, which I think Damien has in spades. then like you said on the review aspect, there's a time where it c it comes to you need to make this quota place to qualify for the Olympics. And that's when the real coming away with that prize matters. But in this build-and-block year with a younger team, it's all about your process. Sarah C: But Ferrera does a fantastic job of connecting on the initial entry and then follows up really quickly with continuous accurate volume. So she leaves no gap ⁓ and no opportunity for the long range fighter to reset ⁓ and re-establish their jab again. Gráinne: you know, build up to the competition, how you're sparring, how you're approaching competition. That's where the coach is learning about the athlete as well. Because Damien mightn't have worked with some of those younger athletes before. So that's what this year is all about. And then when they come home, they reassess, there's an open it's a very ⁓ I it's a very safe environment to speak how you feel. ⁓ ⁓ definitely can vouch for that because there's nothing that I fear speaking to John Mackey. Sarah C: the next one I want to talk about is rhythm and timing. So while range management tells you where the fight is happening Rhythm and timing will tell you who's controlling it. at world level, ⁓ the fighters who dictate the tempo are the ones who are making their opponents look predictable ⁓ and then punish them for doing it. So a couple of fighters that I want to touch on from this tournament as well that this better than anyone else currently in the international field. Gráinne: Damien, any of the coaching staff, like I feel completely hurt whenever I speak my voice. And like I think that's such a powerful thing as well, because you can't if you can't be open and honest on both ends and like I d I definitely think that's one of the like honesty is one of the most my most valued qualities in someone and something that I stand by myself because like if you don't have that you really have none. Sarah C: Yeah, and it's the trust thing, like there's a real trust and bond and connection with you guys. Like you can see it, you can see it in there and can feel it. in terms of when you look at kind of the c countries that, you know, seem to always do well, and obviously China did really well in this and then the Kazakhstans and Uzbekistan ranked really well, ⁓ what you feel other countries who consistently rank at the top level? What do you think structurally that they're doing that, you know, Team Ireland can learn from? Gráinne: Yeah. A good question, I suppose that's the million dollar question, really. If we could dip into that consistency, bringing home medals every time and finishing on top of the podium, like but you have to kind of put it into perspective too. Like, look at the size of those countries and like the fact that in Kazakhstan that's kids grow up with gloves on their hands. Sarah C: So the two fighters I want to talk about here are Nazym Kyzaibay And one of all-time Abdumalek Khalokov. So Nazym Kyzaibay uses quick feints and half steps to make her opponent throw first. So controlling exchange before she's even executed her first phase attack. So when a lot of Gráinne: I've been to Kazakhstan once. I'd love to go to a camp there to kind of see what their approach is to training. I remember last year we went to Beijing for a camp and before the first world championships. And ⁓ the we learned in that, just seeing a approach to training. And it's not saying that one is right or one is wrong, but you're looking at them finishing on top of the podium all the time, and you're like, right, what can we actually nitpick from them and not take their ideas? But you know, knowledge is power. And if you share, if you share that. Sarah C: Coaches and what I learned a lot in Team Ireland was your attack begins at the preparation phase. And so that's exactly what Nazym Kyzaibay is so good at being able to execute on. And then Khalokov well, he works on the same principle but a little bit differently. ⁓ Now he intentionally drops both of his hands to mix up his opponent's read. And he's using head movement to create angles and lands counters in positions that you just don't see coming. Gráinne: And like we brought home a lot of their training strategies back to Dublin, some stuff and and like you said about this being a kind of transition period, like Damien Kennedy is now the head coach and he's brought in his own flair. And like those results will come, but they just won't they won't all happen overnight. But we have this year to build, next year is the big year where everyone's gonna be starting to chase those Olympic qualification spots. Sarah C: So against a master class performer like Khalokov, who's a brilliant counterpuncher, and he has your jab timed and is consistently coming over on top, ⁓ Just ⁓ talking kind of the qualifications and kind of within your weight division itself. ⁓ Obviously, Beatrice Ferreira just come back in from playing a bit of a window in the pro side of ⁓ the business. And she's ⁓ had strong kind Olympic legacy as well. ⁓ When we look at kind the back and forth between, ⁓ I guess, different ⁓ countries, Team USA prohibits at home in terms of ⁓ once you're in, once you've pro, you're not allowed back into the amateurs. ⁓ Boxing Ireland has a strict You can't keep doing the same thing. And it's really important that you identify that you're being tagged with same shot over and again and make the adjustments live in the moment. 5 fight cap in terms of returning to the pros and it varies between different ⁓ As an elite international operator yourself, what are your thoughts on that crossover? And do do you like the idea of the sport being able to become more fluid between the two, or do you feel like there needs to be more strict kind of limitations for that very reason? Gráinne: think it's interesting because I've seen examples like Beatrice Ferrera where she has excelled in amateur boxing, went over to the pro route, excelled there as well, and then but like it's it's hard to do a bit of both. You kinda have to be all in on one because they're cli they're completely different sports. Like it's two minute rounds, it's three minute rounds, it's ten rounds against three rounds. Like it's impossible to compare apples and oranges really. So Sarah C: So to be able to counter against counter puncher, you've got to stop throwing single shots. ⁓ really got to use your feints and use your feints in between your phase attacks, ⁓ up your speed and your tempo when you're throwing different combinations to disrupt their rhythm before they get comfortable. Gráinne: I feel a lot of the time the the countries that have the flexibility to to dabble in both, they literally go one route and then they go the other until that's not working out for them and then they end up coming back. And it's not to say that it didn't work out for Beatrice. Like she won a world title, but her last fight then she got knocked out by the the Turk, Elf Turhan. So just one of those. I I I don't know, I've always I've always would have loved the chance to try pro route. But then with my injury history, I was like, how are my hands gonna hold up after all the hand injuries? That's like small gloves, no head guards. And again, it's not what lights the fire within me. I think that's the question that you really have to an answer for yourself as well, because like I'm boxing is an individual sport, but ⁓ ⁓ much part of Team Ireland and my teammates are some of my best friends, and like I have the biggest team I could have ever asked for from the loneliest sport in the world. And and just having that that thing keeps me in amateur sport. That's that's what really drives me. Sarah C: as you kind of as we look to Sophia in September, right, the European championships, as someone who knows what it takes to prepare for that, what does that window between now and September look like for for this particular squad, for for Ireland? now let's pop over to my conversation with Grainne Walsh to hear more on her perspective on Team Ireland's performances and their road to LA twenty eight. Gráinne: They're definitely gonna gonna need a little dip just because there's only so many times in a year that you can actually peak. And like if you're trying to peek ⁓ eight times a year for all these tournaments, you're not gonna actually get to your full a hundred percent when it matters. it'll probably follow a very similar pattern to what the preparation was for the first two World Cups. Sarah C: we're watching fighters like Beatrice Ferrera compete across both the professional and elite amateur circuit. And it's becoming more and more common. But whether a boxer can actually do that depends entirely on which governing body is setting the rules, and those rules vary significantly country to country. So back in twenty sixteen, AIBA opened the doors to professional fighters to compete at the Olympic Games, That's great. ⁓ I know is probably a bit of an unfair question to close out with for you, but I'm gonna ask you. If you could one Irish boxer to watch closely between now and Sofia someone you think is on the edge of a real breakthrough, who is it and why? Provided they had qualified through the amateur pathway. Now, Keyshawn Davis was a prominent example of that. He had turned professional, competed in his first three pro fights, and then represented the United States at Tokyo 2021 Olympics. Now that rule came from AIBA specifically. It was an international framework decision at the Olympic level. Now World Boxing formed in 2023, and they haven't published an equivalent positioning on it. Gráinne: Okay. Great question. God, I'm gonna have to deal with the backlash of this question. I don't I don't know how to even go about this. I know Michaela is preparing for the Commonwealth now, so the fact that she didn't compete in China, gonna be really on an upward trajectory now of like she didn't have to compete there, so she's gonna be competing in the Commonwealth and that will lead nicely in. I have to give Jenny shout out as well, but I have to say I think Sarah C: Their current competition rules don't actually address professional status either way. Gráinne: Daina is really on the verge of once that happens, once she just gets over that line ⁓ sees what I I think believes what she can produce because that's ⁓ a massive part of it as well, because people can tell you all they want that you know they think you're brilliant and you're talented and all this, Sarah C: What they do establish is that domestic eligibility sits entirely with each national federation. the international and domestic frameworks are operating independently, and the gap between them is exactly where fighters like Ferreira are navigating. So in practice, that means that the same fighter with the same professional record. Gráinne: but until you start to believe that you're you're kind paddling the wrong way. So I think if Daina could get could just get little break. I think she's definitely one to watch. Sarah C: Yeah. just seeing her in the World Games, the versatility in her boxing and her adjustments that was able to make between the two bouts for me like there was real growth there. can be eligible in one country and not in another. Gráinne: Yeah. Sarah C: So Ireland has a published reinstatement pathway, so you can't have any more than five professional bouts. England boxing draws the line at six. these rules but they're localized. And then the USA a hard rule against it, in terms of anyone who has competed in professional combat sports are deemed ineligible to compete at the domestic level. however there are petitions and waivers that can be established, ⁓ to the board of of USA Boxing for consideration. So I think what that captures is that the landscape isn't uniform And that raises a question worth opening up. Do these hybrid boxers actually have an advantage? Or is amateur and professional boxing genuinely two different sports? We know the rounds are different, the gloves are different, the scoring criteria is different, the tempo is different. gets rewarded in a three round amateur bout is not what gets rewarded over ten rounds for a crowd. And yet some fighters transition successfully between both, But on the other hand, we've seen plenty who don't well into the professional game. So my question to you all is, does this crossover sharpen a fighter? or does it pull them away from the foundations that make an elite amateur performance possible? I'm curious to hear your thoughts. So feel free to drop your comments below. that's it for me for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed my ⁓ assessment and analysis on amateur boxing. And if you can do me a favor, please hit subscribe if you enjoyed this episode. And in the meantime, keep your hands up, stay sharp, and keep putting in the work between the rounds. I've been your host, Sarah Cunningham, and I'll see you all very soon.