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Pooja Goyal, Chief Investment Officer of Carlyle Global Infrastructure · South Asian Trailblazers

• 0:06
  Simi Shah: Hey everyone, it's Simi Shah, and welcome to trailblazers. On this podcast, I dive deep into the journeys of trailblazing South Asians, sharing the stories of the leaders and dreamers lighting the way across the South Asian diaspora. Hello, my Trailblazers I'm so thrilled to be back after our very short midseason hiatus, and today I have an exciting announcement we are hosting Yes, another events, a breakfast for South Asian founders in the CPG space on Friday, May 19 in New York City. If you are a CPG founder, operator or stakeholder and you're interested in attending, please email us at South Asian trailblazers@gmail.com or message us on Instagram, LinkedIn wherever you like. As always, we will continue hosting events for leaders in our space and community as well as amplifying other community events in our newsletter. So if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe at South Asian trailblazers.com. With that, let's get to the very special episode I have for you guys.
• 1:15
  Simi Shah: Today I'm thrilled to welcome Pooja Goyal. Pooja is the chief investment officer of Carlisle global infrastructure, co head of the Carlyle global infrastructure Opportunity Fund, and head of renewable and sustainable energy. In case you aren't familiar, Carlyle is one of the world's largest investment firms. They specialize in private equity and private credit, and with over 381 billion assets under management. Carlyle is one of the world's largest megaphones.
• 1:48
  Simi Shah: Prior to joining Carlyle, Pooja was the head of the alternative energy investing group at Goldman Sachs, where she led Goldman's investments in the renewables sector. She's been investing in this sector since 2005, when she joined the group as an associate. She was promoted to managing director in 2012 and took over as head of the group in 2013. And under her leadership, the group builds a portfolio of investments dedicated to the renewable energy and sustainable resources sector. Pooja has held several board and committee positions including the boards of Vivint Solar and the American Council of renewable energy, and the investment committees that all his power and Goldman Sachs is America's special situations group. Prior to 2005, she was part of the investment banking division of Goldman Sachs. Pooja is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania, where she received a BS in finance from Wharton, and a BA BS in computer and cognitive science from the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences. She's on the board of advisors of the School of Engineering, and on the Board of Trustees for the ethical culture fieldston school in New York City. Pooja, and I have so much to discuss in regards to her leadership at the intersection of finance and the future of energy. And as many of you know, I spent an early part of my career in the world of investing, which makes me all the more excited to talk to her today. Pooja, thank you so much for being here.
• 3:33
  Pooja Goyal: Well, first of all, thanks for having me, Simi. I'm just so excited to be part of this podcast.
• 3:39
  Simi Shah: Absolutely. Now, as I said, we have a lot to discuss in regards to your leadership at the intersection of finance and the renewable sector and infrastructure, broadly speaking, what I found that when someone finds their niche early in their career as you did, that propensity is usually rooted in their upbringing. And so I'm curious in what ways did growing up in Mumbai shape your early interest in the world of energy and infrastructure?
• 4:11
  Pooja Goyal: It's so interesting that you asked that question Simi. And I do think that people have a tendency to plan out their careers or their education, which will eventually lead to what we all hope are fulfilling careers commercially, as well as personally and professionally. But growing up in India, I had your typical Indian upbringing, where there was just a lot of focus on academic excellence, and that if you got the right grades, you would go to the right college.
• 4:40
  Pooja Goyal: And then after that, I come from a family of serial entrepreneurs. And my father had told me at a very early age that the ultimate success of a business is quite dependent on the availability of capital. And so I knew that I want to do study something in finance or end up getting a job in finance.
• 4:59
  Pooja Goyal: So at least So I would understand how financial markets work. So I would say that first and foremost, my focus was on understanding how capital markets work, and really how the financial system operates. And then after that, a little bit of it is coincidence, a little bit of it is what I ended up doing in college that ended up with me getting a job in the leveraged finance group at Goldman Sachs.
• 5:23
  Pooja Goyal: And I ended up focusing primarily on either placing complex insurance risks in the capital markets, or capital markets risk in the insurance market or focusing on commodity linked financings. And the way it happens on Wall Street sometimes is you end up getting pigeonholed almost quite early on in your career. And so that's really how I got my foot in the door when it came to the commodity markets. And then after that one thing led to the other. And I ended up specializing in the energy transition.
• 5:58
  Simi Shah: super interesting.
• 5:58
  Simi Shah: And I'm quite familiar with how that process works, because I spent part of my early career in finance. And I'm curious, I mean, as you said, you immigrated to the US to attend the University of Pennsylvania, you followed a relatively traditional path of starting your career in finance, in investment banking at Goldman Sachs. But your introduction to the firm started with a project on catastrophe bonds, can you tell us a little bit about how that all came to pass?
• 6:27
  Pooja Goyal: Yeah, it was super interesting, because I was studying under the dual degree program at the University of Pennsylvania, it is a fantastic program, which enables you to get two degrees from two different colleges at the University. So I was already studying for a finance degree at the Wharton School. And I decided to also get a degree in computer science from the engineering school. And I needed to find a job because two degrees meant a full course load. But I also didn't want to spend five years getting my two degrees. So I was accelerating, my car slowed a little bit. And I wanted to support my parents also, to a certain extent in terms of the obligation they taken on with my tuition. So I wanted to get an on campus job.
• 7:11
  Pooja Goyal: And so I started applying for these research jobs, which was a great way for me to get some sort of experience in terms of the practical application of what I was studying in the classroom. And there was this one research project. And it was a bit of a hybrid between the engineering school as well as Wharton. And it was around the study of catastrophe bonds, which is how do you take risks and losses associated with earthquakes or hurricanes, which are natural disasters or catastrophes, and you place that risk in the capital markets. And it just so happened, that the previous students who had had that job, they all came from this dual degree background, so I think they were somewhat partial to recruiting students who had that technical skill set. And then by the time I ended up applying for my summer internship to Goldman Sachs, one of my predecessors from that research program was already an analyst at Goldman Sachs. And they were working on these catastrophe bonds, which for me, was like intellectually, very exciting, but I could see a real world application to what I'd been studying at the university.
• 8:24
  Pooja Goyal: And so that's really how I ended up getting my job at Goldman.
• 8:28
  Simi Shah: Wow. And, you know, as you alluded to earlier, bankers and people in the world of finance are often corralled, if not pigeon holed into specific industry groups pretty early on. And as a banker, you know, you might work on everything from underwriting IPOs, to massive m&a transactions, and you began your career in leveraged finance.
• 8:49
  Simi Shah: Banking is, of course, a notoriously intense job. But I'm curious in what ways this experience helps cement your interest in the world of energy and energy transition and our alternatives.
• 9:01
  Pooja Goyal: You know, you make such a good point. And I do think that that is a criticism for our industry that we do tend to pigeonhole people or specialized people very early on. And that is where I did feel that my peers who had more of a network either because they had family members who had worked at a bank previously or understood financial services previously, really benefited from just mentorship and guidance. And coming out of university. I still remember you know, joking around about this. When I was a junior applying for internships at an AI bank. We used to all call it AI bank. For the longest time I thought it was internet banking. I didn't know that it stood for investment banking.
• 9:41
  Pooja Goyal: And so you know, I do feel that in order to make the industry more inclusive, we need to allow for people to have mobility, absolutely, or develop more flexible skill sets so they don't get specialized so early on in their career, because in the absence of that mentors trippin guidance, it becomes very, very difficult to try to do something else. But I will say for me working in leveraged finance at Goldman, I almost turned around that narrative where it was a lot easier to explain to people if you had worked on a large m&a transaction that was on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. And I said that while I might not be doing that, I was also not using your standard m&a model. Because of the complexity of the deals that I was doing, I was able to build these models from scratch, really understand the nitty gritty of how these different balance sheet work, how to think about raising money for transactions or acids in the commodity markets, and it kind of gave me an edge. So I almost use that to my advantage a little bit while talking to people, which is that, yeah, these might not be the most topical deals that people were reading about in the newspapers.
• 10:57
  Pooja Goyal: But I was creating almost like a proprietary skill set, and maybe one day that would be of use to someone.
• 11:04
  Simi Shah: Wow. I mean, I spent a summer in banking. And then I started my career in private equity. But I remember, even in my intern years, so much of the conversation would be that people working in love fin have the toughest job and the models that they were building, and the analyses they were doing, were just not comparable to any other industry group, because they were so complex to your point.
• 11:24
  Simi Shah: So it's really interesting how you took that and turn it into a strength when you were having these conversations.
• 11:31
  Pooja Goyal: Yeah, and you know, later on to that the complexity of commodity markets, understanding how gas markets work, or power markets work, or even the oil markets work, it's completely different. And those markets can oftentimes get disrupted with events that might not be related to what's happening in the capital markets, either. Weather patterns can have an impact on commodity prices. So look at what's intellectually interesting to me. You know, oftentimes, people have a tendency when choosing their first job, or even subsequent jobs, they tend to go where the tide is, or catch the tide, rather. And you know, I always say this to people, which is find something that is intellectually interesting to you, and the rest will follow.
• 12:12
  Pooja Goyal: If you continue to find it interesting, you're continuing to be challenged, you're learning, you do have to be strategic about planning your career. But first and foremost, you got to feel like you're really learning and pushing yourself, at least in the early innings of your career.
• 12:28
  Simi Shah: Absolutely, I appreciate that. And definitely advice I will continue to take to heart. Now after spending three years as a banker, you decide to switch over the buy side, you join Goldman's alternative energy investing group, where you eventually became a managing director and served as head of alternative energy investing. What was it like making the transition to role of investor and aside from the obvious what drew you to this role, and this sector,
• 12:57
  Pooja Goyal: it's very simple.
• 12:57
  Pooja Goyal: It was the lifestyle that made me put my head down. And I said that I wanted to move to the buy side, it was incredibly hard being an investment banking at Goldman, it is a fantastic training ground, you learn a lot, you work with management teams, of small to mid sized companies, all the way to companies that have a market cap and the 10s of billions of dollars. And you're working with some incredibly smart and talented people. But yes, it really was a decision that I made, I think, even today, sometimes when my friends and family look at my three years, so that time period for those three years when I was in Goldman banking, I'm just missing from pictures, I'm just not there. And so it was a lifestyle decision where I put my hand up and I said that look, I would like to move to the buy side, I will also say by that point in time, I had a lot of my friends and peers who had moved to the buy side. And it wasn't that you worked less hours, it was more that the hours tended to be a bit more predictable.
• 13:59
  Pooja Goyal: And so that gives you some you know, sense of control over your schedule, I think it was the lack of control. That at least bothered me. And I felt like I was ready for a change. The second thing, which is also equally important, if not more important, was that I did conclude that in order for me to have more visibility on how I would be compensated or promoted, I needed to own my own p&l. And the clearest way for me to do that was to move to the buy side where you either make money or you don't make money.
• 14:41
  Pooja Goyal: And so that was a very deliberate decision that I made.
• 14:44
  Pooja Goyal: And you know, I'm not the sort of person who generally thrives in ambiguity, and I like to control outcomes and fully recognizing that you can never control outcomes, but I would like to influence them as much as possible. And so I wanted to have p&l associated with my name. And which is why I decided to also move to the buy side. I was very happy with my time at Goldman. And so it would be obvious for me to at least see if there would be another opportunity there. And it just so happened to be that the special situations group at Goldman, was looking for someone with a corporate finance background, who understood how commodity markets worked to join their alternative energy investing business, which was basically the business that was investing primarily in renewable energy assets, as well as clean coal and those kinds of energy transition projects.
• 15:34
  Simi Shah: Yeah, and as you just mentioned, you had the opportunity to invest in private and public companies across the energy sector, coal, as you said, natural gas power grid solar wind, I assume. Can you tell us about some of the meaningful investments you made while at Goldman, you know, one that taught you a particular tenant of investing, or that was just personally very impactful?
• 15:56
  Pooja Goyal: That's an interesting question. I guess the one deal that's always been quite close to my heart was actually a business that we incubated from scratch at Goldman. It was called Vivint.
• 16:06
  Pooja Goyal: Solar. It's a residential solar platform. And at that time, Goldman and SSG through another business, not the alternative energy business already had a relationship with this company, it was called Vivint. And it was a home security business where this company went door to door selling home security systems to customers, incredibly talented management team and employee base. And we had a specific thesis around residential solar in the US, this is right around the 2009 or 10 timeframe. And we concluded that this was a market that was positioned for a lot of growth, the residential solar market, especially if you could bring clean and green energy to us homeowners, where it would cost them no money upfront, and save them some money on their utility bill. And so it was an economic value proposition, it wasn't just about saving the planet and procuring renewable energy, but there was a savings to be had. But one of the key drivers of success for that business has to be your customer acquisition cost. And so we concluded because we already had access to this business that had very attractive customer acquisition costs in the home security space, maybe we could leverage that into residential solar. And so it was almost like coming up with a business plan from scratch with the management team. And it was just incredibly fulfilling. And it obviously ended up being a very successful company. Even today, when I fly into Salt Lake City, and I see the Vivint arena, it just makes me incredibly proud. We eventually sold that company to Blackstone.
• 17:46
  Simi Shah: Wow. Very, very cool.
• 17:46
  Simi Shah: Now, while you are Goldman, you rose to senior leadership fairly quickly as becoming head of the group just eight years into your career as an investor. What do you think set you apart?
• 18:01
  Pooja Goyal: You know, there were a lot of changes at Goldman. So I joined the special situations group in 2005. And then we had the financial crisis in 2008. And so that was incredibly interesting, sitting in a balance sheet investing business in the middle of a financial crisis. I guess, there were many moments in time where you would wonder about the long term viability about the renewable sector energy transition, the viability of balance sheet investing, also sitting at a bank that was becoming a bank holding company.
• 18:33
  Pooja Goyal: I guess for me, it was more that I again, gravitated towards what I could influence, which is doing deals, and whether those deals made money or not. And I guess I didn't look up too often to be questioning where things were headed, let's say three, five years down the road. I'm not necessarily saying that is the advice I would give to everyone. Because I do recognize that I've been incredibly fortunate that the energy transition has become so mainstream, I know. But I do have examples of people who are incredibly talented. And God pigeonholed focused on niche parts of the capital markets.
• 19:08
  Pooja Goyal: And sometimes those things have gone sideways as well. So what worked for me was that I kept focusing on deals and the deals, whether they performed or not, but that worked well for me.
• 19:22
  Simi Shah: Absolutely. Now, as you said, in 2019, you joined Carlyle as a partner, and sort of as head of their renewable and sustainable energy fund.
• 19:31
  Simi Shah: What drew you to Carlyle after spending the bulk of your career at Goldman?
• 19:38
  Pooja Goyal: Well, you know, Carlyle has a fantastic brand name as an investment firm. It really is a storied brand name.
• 19:46
  Pooja Goyal: Our founders have a fantastic reputation amongst the investor community. So I would say that coming from Goldman, especially as much as I would have liked to maybe even start Bucha coil Investments, LLC. I tend to look at things on a downside protected basis. And Carlyle was just a fantastic brand name. The second was, it was getting a little complicated to invest out of the bank's balance sheet. And ultimately, I was looking for a lot more flexibility in terms of being able to work with the management teams that I was partnering with. And an investment firm offered that flexibility. But really what moved the needle for me was that Carlyle's vision around the energy transition was really very much consistent with what I thought the market opportunity was back in early 2019. And if you think back to 2019 renewables so the energy transition was not as mainstream as it is today. You know, back in 2019, most of Carlyle's peers invested in renewables. So the energy transition more as a sub sector within a broader diversified fund, whereas Carlyle really took the view that like, look, we think that this is a multi decade opportunity, and it needs a dedicated platform to be able to really capitalize on that opportunity. And that is what I thought it was at that point in time as well. So having that shared vision, really is what moved the needle for me. And then obviously the benefit of the platform itself. The other thing is that you come from a large company like Goldman Sachs, and you're joining on a relative basis, a smaller investment firm when it comes to like number of people, number of employees. Sure, I did do my due diligence, I did ask people a lot about the culture. And this has been my experience. Also at Carlyle, it's an incredibly collaborative culture. And women are a significant portion of our investment professional population at Carlyle, in fact, almost 50% of our AUM are managed by women. That is an outlier. I saw that. And so that made a difference as well. Yeah, I want to
• 22:02
  Simi Shah: backtrack a little bit on something that you said about switching over to something that had more of a pure investment mandate, because it gave you the opportunity to work more closely with management teams. As an investor, you have the opportunity to sit on boards of companies that are innovating in this space. And I'm curious, having had this experience, what trends you've become attuned to and what you've seen develop in the space over the past number of years. Yeah,
• 22:33
  Pooja Goyal: I mean, I have to say that is the most exciting and fulfilling part of my job, which is working with these management teams with these CEOs and founders as they are looking to kind of execute on their vision for the energy transition, that is probably the most fulfilling part about my job, I really enjoy it. I do enjoy even spending time with my investors, especially because it's a fairly diversified set of investors globally. And everyone has different challenges that they're dealing with. But I really do like rolling up my sleeves and getting involved with the management teams, in terms of you know how to execute on their business strategy. And we are in a very complex environment right now, specifically around the energy transition, you've got complex geopolitical factors at play, you've got inflationary pressures, you've got supply chain related issues, but then you're also in a sector that's positioned for a tremendous amount of growth right now. And that growth requires a lot of capital. And then you are seeing interesting capital markets right now, both on the equity as well as credit side. And so it's just incredibly interesting to be working with these management teams, and are often times find that I actually learn a lot from these teams as well, when it comes to building the right organizational structure, establishing the right culture within your organization, recruiting as well as retaining talent in a very competitive market for talent right now, especially around renewables and the energy transition. So it's just been incredibly fulfilling, working with these management teams, and the set of issues keeps evolving. And so it keeps you on your toes. Yeah,
• 24:16
  Simi Shah: I want to spend a second on that, that this set of issues continues evolving. I mean, it say consider, take me a novice in this sector. What are the biggest challenges we're facing in this sector today? And how is that evolved? I mean, I've heard you speak a little bit at times about how the 1.0 evolution of this industry was around renewables. What's 2.0?
• 24:37
  Simi Shah: What's 3.0? Where are we at today?
• 24:40
  Pooja Goyal: So you know, 1.0 is obviously renewables 2.0. You are talking about batteries and electric vehicles and charging infrastructure green hydrogen, green ammonia, so you're definitely the opportunity set is expanding. In terms of the complexities in front of us, obviously, look, you know, you've got to deal with higher interest rates, that means your cost of capital On Skarner, you're dealing with inflationary pressures, I would say that those kinds of issues are pretty much par for the course for any illiquid equity strategy right now, one could argue even for liquid markets. But for energy transition, specifically, having been an investor in this market for over 18 years at this point, and I've seen the roller coaster around energy transition, there have been plenty of ups and downs, you know, the thing that I always get concerned about are momentum investors, so people who aggregate bowls of capital, or who make investments simply because it is mainstream and topical, and these are complex projects, they're expensive projects, they require time, they require expertise, resources, and a lot of capital.
• 25:45
  Pooja Goyal: So anyone who's in for a quick flip, or to be in and out of the market, or draws an analogy to tech investing, it's simply not the same. It is very different.
• 26:00
  Pooja Goyal: And so that is one thing that always concerns me a little bit about renewables and energy transition, which is the noise that gets created by momentum investors, because to the extent there are winners and losers, if there are losers, it always taints people's experience with the sector. And that does a disservice not only to investors, like myself, but also to management teams.
• 26:25
  Simi Shah: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you are obviously the antithesis of a momentum investor, you dug your heels into this space back in 2005, pre financial crisis, pre all the hype that we see today, what gave you conviction back then,
• 26:41
  Pooja Goyal: I wouldn't say I had a very high degree of conviction for the last 18 years. I do think there were moments in my career where I was really questioning my career decisions. I think it's what I said, which was that, look, as long as you're finding deals to do, and you have the capital to do those deals, keep doing those deals. That's my job as an investor. First and foremost, it is to find deals, do deals and generate target returns. If you're doing that, the rest will follow. And so maybe I should have been a little bit more proactive about the bigger picture. I know everyone talks about a three year plan and a five year plan. And your I didn't focus as much on that.
• 27:21
  Pooja Goyal: But as long as I was finding the deals to do and those deals, were making money, I was generally okay with what I was doing.
• 27:31
  Simi Shah: Yeah, well, clearly it worked out because today you serve as Chief Investment Officer for all of Carlyle's global infrastructure. In addition to being co head of the global infrastructure Opportunity Fund and head of renewable and sustainable energy. Can you contextualize the broader infrastructure division? And what all of these roles entail?
• 27:50
  Pooja Goyal: Yeah, so look, you know, we've got one integrated infrastructure platform at Carlyle. And there are really five sectors that we focus on, we focus on transport, we are redeveloping new terminal one at JFK Airport. Exciting, it is incredibly exciting, it is very easy for me to explain to my two young daughters exactly what it is that I do, every time we fly in and out of JFK airport. We also invest in digital infrastructure. So that includes data centers, fiber towers, and telecommunications, infrastructure, energy, midstream infrastructure, so that's pipelines, storage terminals, tanks, we also have a focus on water and utilities. So those are your classic utilities, water, gas, wastewater utilities. And then the fifth sector, which is the one that we're seeing a lot of growth on. And that is kind of more correlated with what I've done historically, is the energy transition space, which includes renewables, as well, as you know, what I referred to as energy transition 2.0.
• 28:56
  Simi Shah: end to end, can you walk me through what happens when a potential opportunity comes across your desk? And, and specifically, I'm curious, you know, every time I talk to seasoned investors, there are certain individual principles that they've developed over the years just as a product of seeing as many deals as we've seen. I'm curious what yours are.
• 29:15
  Pooja Goyal: Yeah, so we definitely have some very basic parameters around cheque size target returns, we focus a lot on portfolio construction. Is this the right deal for where we are in our portfolio construction as we think about, you know, how we build robust portfolios that offer the right diversification as well as return potential for our investors. So portfolio construction is incredibly important to everything that we do, and time and resources are incredibly precious. So we have a limited number of investment professionals and we can't be chasing every single deal that comes our way. So sometimes we do have to turn deals down because it just might not be the right moment in time for what well Looking to do within a certain portfolio or strategy within our platform, at the end of the day, when we're looking at deals, number one, we care about the management team who is running the company? What has been their track record? In terms of running the platform?
• 30:15
  Pooja Goyal: Yes, we can get involved in situations where we can make changes. But we would like to understand the talent and the caliber of the management team.
• 30:24
  Pooja Goyal: And hopefully that is a check on the list. So a, what is the management team look like? Be other barriers to entry? Is there a moat around the business? What is it that the company does? Do they develop assets? Or do they own and operate existing assets, and my analysis might be different from a private equity investor that you're talking to, because I tend to focus more on asset oriented investments. So I do those assets are in the ground and already operating, or otherwise those assets are going to be developed. And so what is really the secret sauce around what the company does, either they have a unique strategy around developing those assets, or those assets are monopolistic in nature, or have high barriers to entry in terms of can you have competing assets around that. And then after that, having come from commodity markets, we always want to make sure that you are competitive with the marginal cost producer for the commodity market that your product is going to be active in. So you know, that is where we get into discussions around government subsidies. In general, we do not like to underwrite any future government subsidies in order to make our investments successful.
• 31:34
  Simi Shah: super interesting. I mean, it's very clear and obvious that you're very good at what you do. What gets you up in the morning and excited to go to work every day.
• 31:44
  Pooja Goyal: I really enjoy the people that I've worked with, we have a good group of people, you're at Carlyle, and there is a level of care at Carlyle as well. So it is incredibly collaborative. It's also kind of been cool for me, you know, from day 120 19, I built my team from scratch. And we're a relatively new and emerging business. And so it's given us an opportunity to establish our own culture, your and that's been exciting.
• 32:09
  Pooja Goyal: So it's definitely the people, I actually prefer coming into the office every day, because I just want to run into people in the hallway and talk to them. It's very organic, the interaction, so I enjoy the people that I work with. But it's really what I said that at the end of the day, you're working with these companies, and helping them execute on their vision. And that's just super exciting.
• 32:29
  Pooja Goyal: Yeah.
• 32:33
  Simi Shah: You know, in that same vein, there are a lot of people who work in this space that feel a lot of existential dread around climate and just where this industry is broadly heading and where the world is broadly heading. Do you ever grapple with that? I mean, how do you deal with that?
• 32:48
  Pooja Goyal: Yeah, I mean, as a parent, right, I do think about it. I do think about the studies that come out. But like I said, I tend to gravitate towards things that I can focus on an influence. And I've been fortunate in the sense that I'm not just reading about climate change, I'm not just reading about energy security, I'm actually able to make a difference. And that's pretty neat, because you don't generally tend to find careers where there is kind of that overlap between your personal goals, as well as what would be a academically lucrative career?
• 33:25
  Simi Shah: Absolutely. I mean, it's definitely hard to exist at the intersection of the two. And I think most people are trying to find how they can, I want to spend a second on the causes of some of that drive. And it's, you know, for example, I remember I studied government in college, and we would often talk about the concept of race to the bottom, whereby a lot of nations compete by lowering their environmental standards in hopes of attracting foreign investment and just broader industry. And this relates to obviously, broader conversations around global climate agreements, like the Paris Accords, we're developing nations who haven't necessarily industrialized as much as we have, are saying, you know, it's not necessarily fair that suddenly we have to abide by these rules. But the point being that global warming is a very real thing. And we all need to work to mitigate our impact on climate change. How do you feel as an investor, you help accelerate that transition and accelerate that Biden?
• 34:16
  Pooja Goyal: You know, it's a question that comes up quite often. And the question also comes up in the context of this private capital have a role to play in infrastructure, or generally speaking, the energy transition, and I will tell you every single day I am reminded that private capital has an incredibly important role to play. It's because these companies and management teams that we're working with are dealing with some complex issues. And sometimes they also need expertise and resources to think through them but also capital that has patience and is able to withstand volatile market conditions. And so private capital has an incredibly important role to play now. I'm also not the sort of person who says that you know what private capital can only play a role in isolation. I think there are plenty of examples of public private partnerships, partnerships, not only between private equity firms, local governments, but also including strategics. And that may include oil and gas companies as well, you will have to show flexibility around creating these kinds of collaborative ecosystems where everyone can come together share expertise in order to make these projects successful. So, you know, I do think private capital has a role to play. And that role will not just be in OECD markets, it can include emerging markets as well. The only thing I would add to this, and this is more of my experience, as someone who grew up in India, you cannot be prescriptive, and you cannot step into complex jurisdictions and assume the same rules apply, you need to show a little bit of flexibility, which might also include the pool of capital that you're deploying out of. But you need to be able to adapt and be flexible, if you're operating in markets where you've not historically operated before.
• 36:07
  Pooja Goyal: Yeah,
• 36:11
  Simi Shah: I appreciate the deep insight. Because, again, I think it's a conversation a lot of us are having often superficially because climate is such a hot button conversation right now.
• 36:21
  Simi Shah: You've worked at two behemoth, I mean, stalwart institutions in the financial sector at the intersection of energy and energy transition. And today, as you said, you're building a new business for what has been a long standing institution, what is the most rewarding part of the job?
• 36:41
  Pooja Goyal: I mean, nothing is more rewarding than having a successful investment and a successful exit. Yeah, that is incredibly rewarding. I do think building a business of scale is just incredibly important. And the reason that is the case is because that growth kind of permeates through the organization. Like I said, I built my team from scratch. You know, we believe that we have a shared mission, you're at Carlyle, and just seeing people get excited about milestones that we're hitting, is just incredibly fulfilling, because we feel like we're well on our way on executing on that mission. So just seeing that enthusiasm and energy kind of permeate through the deal team has been incredibly fulfilling.
• 37:26
  Simi Shah: Absolutely. And obviously, no institution is perfect, but private equity over the last number of years has faced its share of scrutiny as even though they've often lean vested and oriented towards ESG.
• 37:37
  Simi Shah: They're often regarded as contributors to the climate crisis from a dollars perspective. How do you grapple with that? And what do you say to people that are sort of trying to deal with this paradox in their minds?
• 37:50
  Pooja Goyal: I mean, look, you know, at Carlyle, we have a fantastic ESG practice, you know, we were the leader in terms of the ESG data convergence project, one of the most important things for us has been that you not only need to set up ESG reporting metrics, those metrics need to be standardized as well. And we were able to get important LPs, as well as other GPS to sign up to that ESG data convergence project. And that has just been something that's made me incredibly proud about the leading position Carlyle's taken amongst candidate investment firm peer group. And candidly, I'll tell you semi that's been an important recruiting tool for me as well. People who join my team, you know, obviously, they are focused on climate change, they are focused on the energy transition. But they also want to be part of Carlyle, because we are one of the leaders when it comes to thinking through these kinds of complex issues.
• 38:40
  Pooja Goyal: Absolutely.
• 38:44
  Simi Shah: You've achieved remarkable heights in the financial world. But I also imagine that it wasn't easy, particularly when you're getting started as a woman as a woman of color as an immigrant. I mean, today, you're a mom, how did you surmount those barriers to entry and avoid being intimidated, not just by the dollars at stake, but the cultural environment?
• 39:05
  Pooja Goyal: Maybe that's where you say ignorance is bliss. I never kind of walked into a room and said that, oh, geez, it looks like I'm the only woman your or I might be a minority woman, your I guess, you know, I never really thought about that.
• 39:20
  Pooja Goyal: I was too focused on whether I knew what I was presenting, or I was prepared for a negotiation session. And so maybe that has helped me a little bit in terms of dealing with that. Having said that, the most complex thing I've done, or I'm still in the process of doing is being a parent. It is incredibly hard.
• 39:42
  Pooja Goyal: It is incredibly humbling. And maybe I can tell you 15 years from now, whether it worked out or not,
• 39:49
  Simi Shah: I'm sure well,
• 39:52
  Pooja Goyal: so I don't know about that. I think that that has been the challenging part.
• 39:55
  Pooja Goyal: So of all the things that you mentioned in terms of the complexities of being Being a woman and Indian woman, the one thing that I still constantly deal with is the fact that you've got two kids at home and you have to do your job. I mean, it is constant triage.
• 40:11
  Simi Shah: Yeah, I want to spend an extra second on that, because as you mentioned, Carlyle very uniquely has almost 50% of its assets under management, managed by women, which is quite incredible. I mean, what have they done to foster that growth?
• 40:27
  Simi Shah: And how personally do you think about balancing your roles in all these senior positions at Carlyle while also being a mom at home?
• 40:35
  Pooja Goyal: You know, they're incredibly supportive. It is an incredibly supportive organization. And by being supportive, I don't just mean they are providing me with resources and all but just being able to talk to other women at Carlyle, who understand that you're managing a portfolio, you're managing a team. And you may be potentially working with various stakeholders, including investors, it is a complex set of issues. So getting that guidance and mentorship is important. I'm not really talking about sponsorship here, I'm just talking about practical advice that's been incredibly useful. So I mean, of course, we've got different kinds of employee groups that also provide support, we've made investments in developing our talent as well, we provide executive coaching to members of our team, but it's more of the organic interactions that result in practical advice that has been incredibly useful to me. I have said this before, and I will say it now, which is that look, you know, Carlyle hired me as a fund head when I was relatively young, with very young kids in preschool. And they didn't bat an eye. They supported me. And that's just been quite incredible. So I really do believe that Carlyle puts its money where its mouth is.
• 41:55
  Simi Shah: Yeah, well, I love to hear that makes me very happy.
• 41:58
  Simi Shah: And it's, like I said, the whole point of Trailblazers is for us to have a line of sight to leaders like you. And it's really incredible to see them making strides in this way. But also to see you there doing that, and making those strides for us today is obviously it's a challenging time, in that the financial system is relatively unstable, which has three banks have failed, which has a ripple effect on the grander part of our economy. Being someone that's live through 2008 lived through a lot of volatility, just given the sector and space that you're in, what are some learnings you can share with aspiring young professionals who are looking to start their careers in the financial sector,
• 42:37
  Pooja Goyal: I just have to say it is an incredibly attractive learning opportunity right now.
• 42:41
  Pooja Goyal: I mean, think about it, we've not had these market conditions, really, since the financial crisis. And as an investor, nothing gets me more interested than these kinds of market conditions. It's an incredible opportunity for people across all levels, whether you're starting off your career, or you are a business leader, it is a learning opportunity. I would also say that, learn from people around you, but also learn from what your clients are doing, or your peers are doing. And make sure that in your interactions with everyone around you, you're not transactional, and you're really thinking strategically, because you know, what, if you are there for your clients right now, and you're able to think through various iterations and give them good counsel, they will be there for you when you need them as well. And so you're just thinking through strategically in terms of your relationships, and your interactions with people is incredibly important, versus just focusing on what's happening in a particular moment in time right now, but it is an incredibly important learning opportunity right now.
• 43:51
  Simi Shah: I love hearing that.
• 43:51
  Simi Shah: And it reminds me of a piece of advice I received when I first started my career in private equity. And we were being assigned portfolio companies.
• 43:59
  Simi Shah: And they said everyone wants the portfolio companies that are smooth sailing, have no problems. But they were like the place where you learn the most is in the companies that are struggling and really going through it. And I feel like that's exactly what you're saying is that there's an incredible opportunity to learn right now because market conditions aren't perfect.
• 44:17
  Pooja Goyal: Yeah. Just make sure you don't get pigeonholed as the workout posted either.
• 44:25
  Simi Shah: I believe that I believe it. No, I have to ask your seasoned investor who's been in this space for as you said almost two decades and I know you alluded to the idea of Pooja Goyal investments, would you ever consider starting your own fund?
• 44:40
  Pooja Goyal: No, I'm incredibly happy at Carlyle.
• 44:44
  Simi Shah: Well, thank you so much Pooja for being here. I really, really appreciate you taking the time to share your story. And I personally enjoy it because again, I've spent a formative part of my life in this arena, and it's really exciting to see women like yourself trailblazing the path that you are.
• 44:58
  Pooja Goyal: Well, it's incredibly accurate. waiting to see what you're doing Simi. Your content is excellent. And so thank you very much for including me, but out keep doing what you're doing. It's such an important avenue for young South Asians out there, and even those South Asians who are established in their career, so keep doing what you're doing.
• 45:16
  Simi Shah: Absolutely. And I can't wait for your daughters to listen to this episode and 15 years and hear what they say.
• 45:23
  Simi Shah: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for joining us for today's episode.
• 45:27
  Simi Shah: If you want to get new episodes straight to your inbox, subscribe to our newsletter at SouthAsianTrailblazers.com And follow us at South Asian Trailblazers on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.