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Beth Graham on Building a Mass Tort Powerhouse · Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Raising the Bar with Rebuttal PR.
• 0:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: The podcast will be elevate the stories of the plane of spar and dive into the key trends, shaping the civil justice system today.
• 0:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Ray D. Lorenzi, and in each episode, we'll bring you insightful interviews with leading attorneys, expert perspectives on current legal events, and in-depth discussions on the issues that matter most.
• 0:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now let's jump in.
• 0:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think tenacity and having the resources and understanding how difficult it is goes a long way.
• 0:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the lot is not, it's not easy.
• 0:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Federal courts are not easy on plane of lawyers and it's getting more and more difficult.
• 0:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I credit my team now.
• 0:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've got this incredible team working with me.
• 0:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've got some really talented younger partners and associates and paralegal staff and I've been really fortunate that way.
• 0:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey everyone, welcome to a new episode of Raising the Bar with Rebel PR.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Reed D. Lorenzi, and today I am joined by Beth Graham, who's with Grant and Eisenhoffer.
• 0:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: She leads their complex and mass tort litigation practice, and she also is a firm member.
• 1:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry of the firm's executive committee.
• 1:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Beth, thanks so much for joining us today.
• 1:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Good morning, and thank you for having me, Ray.
• 1:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Beth, you know,
• 1:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think as we talk before we start recording, you know, I always like to figure out what makes people tick and you've worked on some really big cases.
• 1:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: But not unlike some other, I think, you know, really esteemed plaintiff's lawyers, particularly in the mass tour in complex litigation space.
• 1:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: You also run the defense side earlier in your career.
• 1:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: You say that as you almost felt like kind of like a solemn look.
• 1:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So tell me, like, tell me about, like, why did you even become a lawyer in the first place?
• 1:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Why did it become a lawyer?
• 1:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's an excellent question.
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And from being completely honest, it's because I wasn't really sure what else to do with an English and polyside degree in New York City.
• 1:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was always fascinated by the law and by advocating for people.
• 2:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: who maybe couldn't articulate things in the same manner or didn't have the resources available to make their case ever since I was a kid.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: My parents would tell you that I was always arguing and usually it was not on my own behalf, but on behalf of my siblings or somebody else.
• 2:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I just was fascinated with the law when I was in undergrad and decided to go to law school and just take a run at it.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was the first person in my family to go to college.
• 2:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was obviously the first person then to go to law school.
• 2:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just really important to me to kind of see if it was something that I could do.
• 2:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when I got out of school, I knew it was for me.
• 2:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I find interesting, particularly when someone is first in their family to go to college.
• 2:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to law school in your case, both.
• 2:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Was it ever I got a young age like anyone your family would be like, oh, you're good at arguing you should be a lawyer.
• 2:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Was it even in like the scope of what you could be?
• 3:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Could become?
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, not really, you know, but I was strong-willed, even as a child, and I just thought I'm going to do this.
• 3:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and it was interesting because I grew up in a neighborhood where everybody was a cop or a fireman or a nurse or a teacher, and that was my world.
• 3:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I just, from a pretty young age, said, nope, I'm going to be a lawyer.
• 3:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is what I'm going to do.
• 3:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I just kind of did it.
• 3:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I was really lucky.
• 3:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
• 3:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: In hindsight, you know, if it was skill determination, grit, or a combination of that, but definitely a lot of luck.
• 3:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: When you go to law school, you become a lawyer, and especially for people to at a young garage decide they want to do it.
• 3:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I always feel like their idea what a lawyer is, and then they have kind of like a real awakening at some point.
• 3:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: What was that for you?
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was a very rude awakening.
• 3:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I graduated law school I was twenty-four when I started practicing, which is shocking to me now.
• 3:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought I knew everything because I took all these important classes and I wrote and I clerked for a judge and I, you know, did trial advocacy and then I got to my first job, which was at a big defense firm.
• 4:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I couldn't find my way around anything.
• 4:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was so intimidating.
• 4:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I just remember thinking, oh my god, the secretaries know so much more than I do about the law.
• 4:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: What am I doing here?
• 4:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it was definitely from day one kind of a
• 4:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know humbling experience but I was fortunate I had some really good mentors so pretty early on in my career they just kind of threw me into the deep end and so I kind of learned from there but it was definitely intimidating at first but I just thought well you know I can't quit like day one and then day one became day three hundred and sixty five and all of a sudden I was a second year so
• 4:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they don't teach you what you really need to know in law school all the time Tell me about working out at the fence firm in that experience
• 5:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so again, I didn't really know coming out of law school what to do because I didn't really have, you know, role models other than the ones I'd met in law school and my professors in the like.
• 5:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And back then, everything was kind of, I lived in New York City, everything was kind of geared towards big law, big law, big law.
• 5:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they were the ones who came and recruited on campus.
• 5:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So naturally, I wound up at a big defense farm and found my way to California.
• 5:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: which was in hindsight a blessing because I think I got a lot more experience going to Big Long California at that point that I would have if I'd stayed in New York.
• 5:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've probably still been reviewing documents.
• 5:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it was intense.
• 5:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was all the things that you read about, you know, bill-belowers, weekends, nights, partners who weren't, you know,
• 5:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: the warmest and fuzziest, all of that.
• 5:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it was a great learning experience for me.
• 5:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I got to see really great lawyers on the defense side, and on the plane of side, but watching from the other side of the table.
• 6:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I remember being a young associate, and as I said, I had some really great mentors who would take me to court with them, and they would take me to these meetings, these high level meetings, and so I'd be sitting there.
• 6:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: in a meeting with, like, at that time, like, Elizabeth Cabrera's or a class of table, or Stan Chesley, or Arne Lovian, or these guys who were like, wow, like, I've read about them in cases, and so it was really something, but I didn't love it.
• 6:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, once I realized what I was really doing, you know, in the beginning it was just, oh, I'm writing these memos, and I'm writing these high-level briefs, and I'm doing this, and I'm doing that.
• 6:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to try, and I'm taking depositions.
• 6:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: But when the light bulb went off, which was probably like,
• 6:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: three or four years into my career and I realized I was defending corporations who, you know, sadly in a lot of situations had done the wrong thing.
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just didn't love it.
• 6:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I remember this moment when we were, I had a case against a plaintiff's firm, you know, just kind of a single solo practitioner plaintiff's firm.
• 7:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: single event firm in California and it was a drug case and I knew that there was a problem with our with our label and I figured this guy's gonna figure this out and I had authority to settle the case for you know pretty decent amount of money and I never figured it out and I was so upset on behalf of his client and I realized that that's where my heart was and I should be on the other side of the table because I thought I could do a good job at this and I know what I'm doing so yeah so I kind of quick more quickly
• 7:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: gravitated towards the plaintiff side of the barn.
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean you're like a third or fourth year at a big defense firm like the the path is sort of paved in many ways for folks there.
• 7:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about mentors before you know who did you reach out to to be and like what were those conversations like being like yeah I'm done with like this track and I'm ready to pivot.
• 8:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I think, I mean, I realized in years three or four, I think it took me until my sixth year to really get the nerve up to switch sides, because I started to talk to people who are on the other side.
• 8:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I always kind of, again, gravitated towards the plaintiff side when I'd be in a deposition.
• 8:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to go out with other defense lawyers who are there.
• 8:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be hanging out with a plaintiff's lawyer.
• 8:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I realize it's a contingent fee practice, and it's not like lock-step advancement, and it's not
• 8:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: guaranteed bonuses if you work a certain number of hours it's it's much more about taking risks and so it took me a little bit a couple years after I realized what I want it to do to get you know the nerve up to do it.
• 8:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I sent my resume just coal to at the time the biggest plane at best plane it's still the biggest and best plane of sort of I think at the same for you know homegrown in San Francisco leave cabrais right just sent my resume to Elizabeth.
• 8:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And unfortunately, we have so many conflicts because I was in active litigation against her firm in like three or four cases.
• 9:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the partners who started my work advised the client not to wave the conflicts.
• 9:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I couldn't go work there.
• 9:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: But she was kind enough to hand my resume, which was on a plane.
• 9:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: She handed it to another trial lawyer who was working on a case with her and they were coming back from some meeting.
• 9:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: His name was Dick Alexander.
• 9:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he was a fierce trial lawyer in
• 9:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: at the time San Jose California and he reached out to me and said, you know, I'm trying to build this class, mass, practice, some single event practitioner, what do you think and I interviewed and you know, that the rest is kind of history.
• 9:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I went to work for him and you know, I talked to people along the way, I talked to you know, a lot of the kind of
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, big name lawyers at the time about how to do certain things.
• 9:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was, again, really fortunate to get involved in a really big case right off the bat.
• 9:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I found this client or the client found me.
• 9:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I wound up, you know, my first MDL as a plaintiff's attorney.
• 10:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: about six months into my practice as a plaintiff's attorney.
• 10:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I just asked questions.
• 10:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just asked the plaintiff's attorneys who were on the executive committee with me like, how do you do this?
• 10:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I learned a lot.
• 10:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I learned a lot.
• 10:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: As I said, I got to watch a lot of really
• 10:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, well-regarded plaintiffs firms in the Bay Area.
• 10:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Kachat was out here and Alan Ruby and obviously Dick and Elizabeth.
• 10:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just, you know, because it walked up, it was a really great learning experience for me kind of just diving into it.
• 10:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 10:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you said about six months into your life's a planus layer, you're on an MDL.
• 10:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 10:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, MDLs, you know, sometimes get some, you know, criticism, let's put aside a pair, not like about how hard it is for newcomers to break into those.
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: I actually do that.
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And also did like folks look at you like a scans, like, were you on the other side of the table six months?
• 11:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love that experience, like,
• 11:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was hard not welcoming.
• 11:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would say at first.
• 11:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: But so I filed a case.
• 11:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a dealership franchise dispute.
• 11:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: We represented a car dealer and I was just, you know, I filed it in state court in San Jose County and it got removed to federal court.
• 11:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the next thing I know is shipped across the country and
• 11:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: into an empty aisle and in Baltimore, Maryland, ironically.
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the good news was I had the client.
• 11:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had at the time that I'd tell there was a class action and my lead representative was a guy named Colonel Frank Borman.
• 11:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: who had been to the moon and had run it Eastern Airlines, but also happened to a number of car dealer franchises.
• 11:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he was my client.
• 11:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had answered the phone when his local council called at eight o'clock on a Friday asking some questions about the case I had filed in San Jose and he became my client.
• 11:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it was difficult to push me aside because
• 12:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: he was my guy, you know, and everybody agree he was the best possible class representative for class of cardioers because he was, you know, I've been to the moon, got on our country, I've earned business, you know, like it was, it was an ovarian of her, and then, you know, I just worked my ass off.
• 12:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think eventually the fellow members of the executive committee realized that I knew what I was doing.
• 12:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I wound up forming a relationship, a cordial, even though we were on other sides of the table.
• 12:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: a pretty cordial professional relationship with the in-house council for the defendant, which in that case is American Honda automotive cars.
• 12:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so we would see each other, you know, from time and again in deposition or in court and such.
• 12:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was the person, hey, because I was kind of, you know, they kind of begrudgingly accepted me into the MDL fault.
• 13:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: young and I was the only woman at the time and I know a lot of the clients were a lot of the fellow attorneys were you know cardiovascular attorneys and so I was definitely a little bit handicapped and in certain regards how they looked at me but because of this relationship and because I was tasked with figuring out the damage model
• 13:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: because it was a really complicated case.
• 13:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It had to do with bribery and corruption within the company.
• 13:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: The executives were taking bribes from certain this cadre.
• 13:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: If dealers, certain dealers and the other dealers like my client were affected because they're a limited number of Honda's at the time coming into the country.
• 13:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, it was this complicated allocation system and I wound up being tasked with talking to the guys with big computers up at MIT, that how we were going to unravel this whole thing on a national basis.
• 13:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that became the model for settlement.
• 14:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so coming back, literally, you read these stories, but it's true.
• 14:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Coming back from a deposition in Boston, I met with the general counsel and his outside local, not the lead child counsel, but another outside local.
• 14:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And on the back of an applicant, we started to sketch out what would this look like if you guys wanted to resolve this case.
• 14:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: but it was after several years and a second mortgage on my condo and a lot of antacetal what's on my desk.
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so I think my defense skills came in handy because I wasn't looking at it.
• 14:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the enemy and it's like to the death.
• 14:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, all right, let's try to figure out a business solution.
• 14:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what I think the number is.
• 14:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me what you guys have big computers.
• 14:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think the number is?
• 14:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that your experience in Big Law, you know, I'm not sure if it's like worn off at this point in your career, but do you feel like at least earlier on, it gave you some, you know, credibility with the defense council in case is that, oh, you know what, she knows what makes us tick or they were like, ah, you're the enemy at this point.
• 15:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, whatever.
• 15:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think it's a mix.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there are certain lawyers who I've come up against, um, you know, the last decade who definitely look at me like I'm the enemy and I'm just another plaintiff's lawyer.
• 15:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and then there are certain him, I think, uh,
• 15:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: appreciate that I understand that they have a client and they have a board of directors and they have shareholders and they have concerns about the value of their company and and I understand business solutions so it's not just you know I'm gonna kick your ass in trial it's like I will if I have to but I think it's I think
• 15:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I probably have gotten a little bit of credibility with just coming in the door.
• 15:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we'll give her a shot as opposed to, you know, she just doesn't understand and is just the enemy.
• 16:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it definitely helped.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it's worn off because I've kind of continued to try to
• 16:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: use that as a model for resolution.
• 16:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everything I learned when I was on the defense side and tried to capitalize on that and learn even more from talking to my adversaries, whether it's in a courtroom or in a mediation room.
• 16:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Rebuttal PR is a strategic communications firm that works exclusively with the plan of a spar to market their firms and win high-stakes litigation.
• 16:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: For more than fifteen years, the nation's leading plan of law firms have turned to Rebuttal PR to create winning communications campaigns, ranging from billion dollar mass torts and class actions to positioning attorneys in their markets to grow their businesses and make a bigger impact.
• 16:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: What sets Rebuttal PR apart is the unique skills set of our team, which combines legal knowledge with public relations expertise.
• 16:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Our team's ability to understand the facts and law of a case, as well as the media landscape, means we can develop compelling, narrative-driven campaigns that resonate with key stakeholders and support your firm and legal strategy.
• 17:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Visit our website, Rebuttalpr.com to learn more.
• 17:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not back to our episode.
• 17:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, we're joined by Beth Graham, who is a principal at grant and eyes and offer and leads their mass tour and complex litigation practice.
• 17:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Beth, let's talk about and pivot to joining grant and eyes and offer and what drove that decision and that process as part of your sort of next stage in your career.
• 17:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so as I said, I'd start it with a pretty prominent plaintiff's trial firm and then one of the partners and I branched out started her own firm and then after we resolved that case and another coordinated case involving hip implants, my partner decided he was about twelve years old at him and he decided he was ready to retire and do something else.
• 17:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I really didn't want to run a firm by myself.
• 17:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I took a couple of years and try to figure out, I mean, we continue to like wind down the firm.
• 18:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And as we're doing it, I was trying to decide what I wanted to do.
• 18:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if I wanted to bring more people on as partners, or if I wanted to do something completely different, like mediation, or if I wanted
• 18:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, to join another firm.
• 18:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I had been friends, you know, acquaintances with Jay Eisenhower for a few years by then, we'd met kind of fundraising for different, you know, political candidates.
• 18:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was always asking me like, how do I build this thing?
• 18:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: He wanted a mass tour, class action, you know, tort department.
• 18:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: They were already wildly successful in securities and anti-trust and commercial litigation and he'd been, you know, talking to the mass tort lawyers with him used friends and he wanted to build this thing.
• 18:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I kept telling him how he should do it.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he was frustrated because he wasn't, you know, he wasn't doing it.
• 18:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, he's telling me about it.
• 18:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have these six hip cases.
• 18:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, you're missing the mass part of the tour.
• 19:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you need more than that.
• 19:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so we were at Yankees game one night and he said, you know, why don't you join us?
• 19:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, I don't want to move to New York or Delaware.
• 19:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he said,
• 19:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we'll set it up and I say, I should just go off as we just started talking.
• 19:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought this is the perfect opportunity to build a firm again, but within a firm.
• 19:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And have the resources of a firm so it wasn't quite as daunting a task than just taking what had been my own firm of thirteen people and like trying to find a new partner with him to work.
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was like kind of transporting it over.
• 19:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it was an easy decision.
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, well, you know, we'll see what happens.
• 19:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'll build it.
• 19:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, build a firm within a firm, which is what I wound up doing.
• 19:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we started with me and another associate and a paralegal and now there's, I think, forty two people in my department.
• 19:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, you've been widely successful in terms of building that.
• 19:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, there's a lot out there now where I think lawyers are like, you know what, we're going to bolt on a master practice.
• 20:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're just going to get into this.
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I think maybe also not appreciating the challenges with doing that.
• 20:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: What challenges do you see and why do you think you've had that success in building that, you know, practice when it practice?
• 20:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think, I mean, I have to give credit to my partners at Grant and Eisenhower because a lot of the success came from them giving me the resources to invest both human resources and monetary resources because building a master of practice is not only incredibly complicated because there are so many moving parts.
• 20:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just the law, right?
• 20:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just waiting for clients, you know, six thousand of them to knock on your door.
• 20:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have to do a lot of marketing.
• 20:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have to do it.
• 20:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of kind of, you know, intake and interviews and client relationships.
• 20:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so there's a lot of moving parts and they really gave me the tools and the resources and the runway to kind of get it off the ground, which is fantastic.
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, you have to have a stomach for it because you're right.
• 21:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody's not everybody.
• 21:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of people think, okay, I'll build a mouse tour department, how hard is this?
• 21:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I actually, one of my partners do a grant
• 21:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's retired now, said that, how hard can this be?
• 21:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I see all these guys on TV, you just get clients and then you settle, right?
• 21:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, I wish you were that easy.
• 21:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so we had some really, thankfully, you know, some really successes with cases I had picked to get involved in in the beginning.
• 21:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: We had some not-so-grites, except we had failures.
• 21:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was co-lead in one of my first MDLs at Grat Nies and Hopper where I was appointed co-lead
• 21:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: wound up during the course of the case.
• 21:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: The Supreme Court came out with the all-brook decision and all of a sudden we were gathered it out and the whole MDL was over.
• 21:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: We went from talking about how we were going to pick a jury during COVID to a summary judgment opinion that got rid of all the cases.
• 22:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think tenacity and having the resources and understanding how difficult it is, really understanding how difficult it is goes a long way.
• 22:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, and the law is not, it's not easy.
• 22:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Federal courts are not easy on plane of lawyers and it's getting more and more difficult.
• 22:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, um, you know, I credit my team now.
• 22:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've got these incredible team working with me.
• 22:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've got some really talented younger partners and associates and paralegals and staff.
• 22:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, um, I've been really fortunate that way.
• 22:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, you have a pretty varied, you know,
• 22:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess caseload, and it helps a lot of your successes, you know, drug and device work, done environmental work.
• 22:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you decide this is something where we can have an impact or we can add value?
• 22:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you pick those?
• 22:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what's a good question?
• 22:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we started with drug and device because my experience, even when I was a defense attorney with the pharmaceutical industry taught me that they really, like, absent tort law, they're not going to stay in line, right?
• 23:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like we are the guardian at the gate, I believe, when it comes to devices and drugs because, you know, if you think about the system,
• 23:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: You as a patient go to your doctor and say something happened as a result of the drug or device.
• 23:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: The doctor then reports it to the manufacturer and is the manufacturer who's making a profit on the drug or device.
• 23:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Their responsibility under our crazy system to go to the FDA and then the FDA decides, you know, how and when to act.
• 23:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I always gravitated towards those cases because it seemed like the playing field wasn't exactly level.
• 23:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But more recently, we've expanded the group to include single event catastrophic cases, which was kind of how I was raised up so to speak.
• 23:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think those are important cases because one, you've just got one individual taking on, usually a large
• 24:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: corporation and to it trains my lawyers to think about a single case, a single plaintiff.
• 24:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I like those cases and if it's something that's like product liability that's in my wheelhouse that I understand
• 24:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll take those on.
• 24:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've kind of gravitated a little bit towards the detention center cases and sexual assault cases, clergy cases in the last five years, because we saw an EAT that wasn't really being met unfortunately.
• 24:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of institutional abuse that's being uncovered and we really felt as a firm.
• 24:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I always kind of make the decisions and collaboration with my junior partners.
• 24:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And with Jay eyes and Hoffa, who's the managing partner at the firm.
• 24:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we look at where we can make a difference and how we can change the law and how we can advance legislation and how we can maybe just take a little chunk out of preemption law or whatever it might be and then how we can help the clients.
• 25:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's some cases, I won't take on a case right on understand.
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I mean, like every day I have to learn something new about a drug or a device or an environmental toxin, that's easy.
• 25:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if I don't understand the legal principles, I won't, it's just not something I get involved with.
• 25:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but then I, you know, I have to believe in the human story.
• 25:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like at some point, if you're telling it to the jury, what is your client's story?
• 25:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it has to be something that's like appealing to me.
• 25:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it's just, you know, put my finger in there and go, okay, like,
• 25:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?
• 25:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, you know, and you just kind of do it in early in my office, focus group.
• 25:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what do you think about this case?
• 25:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what would you say to this?
• 25:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes we spend a long time betting our cases at the front end, I mean, weeks, you know, sometimes medicine.
• 25:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I know who in my firm is going to say no to everything and I go to them because they're good like sounding board because they're like, oh, this isn't going to work.
• 26:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And here's the twenty reasons why.
• 26:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I knew the people who were like, oh, that's a great story.
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go get them.
• 26:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of balanced it.
• 26:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I look at the flaws in the case.
• 26:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: If I was a defense lawyer, how would I attack this case?
• 26:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, I know you still hopefully have quite a few years left in your career.
• 26:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: But at this point, if you could pick the case that for you is like, you know, tombstone, you know, going to go on there.
• 26:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is that case to you?
• 26:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: God, I don't know.
• 26:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I love doing the advocacy for for children because it's the natural extension of representing, you know, victims of corporate abuses, now representing survivors of personal assaults.
• 26:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the perfect case would be.
• 26:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't found one yet, so it's hard to conjure what it might be.
• 26:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I also love keeping my hands in in a little bit of everything.
• 26:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I like the environmental
• 26:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then, as you know, I just finished a big environmental case on like, no mass.
• 27:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I want to move on to something else.
• 27:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm right now, I'm starting most of my time doing cases in Maryland and against the archdiocese of Washington and up in New Hampshire because of institutional abuse of, you know, childhood survivor cases.
• 27:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know what the perfect case would be.
• 27:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if there is a perfect case for me.
• 27:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a be honest.
• 27:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: You talked earlier, again, I keep going back to the mentor theme, because I think it's interesting that you talk about all these mentors who helped you.
• 27:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now you have a practice where you have forty plus people in your charge.
• 27:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what's your philosophy to mentoring them that you picked up from others?
• 27:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess, you know, also ways that you felt that you could have been better mentored as a young roller.
• 27:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 27:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I tried to tell everybody, you know, the first of all, the fundamental rules in my office are, show up and be present.
• 27:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: work hard and don't be an asshole.
• 27:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you can do those three things, you're going to succeed working for me.
• 28:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just that simple.
• 28:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I believe in trying to mentor people, you know, I mean, there's the mechanics of it, right?
• 28:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like we do lunch and learns and I try to get younger attorneys out in depositions just to sit and watch and I bring them to meetings and try to get them training, you know, this
• 28:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I take the time, if they've written something instead of just like redlining it and sending it off, I'll sit down with them and say, okay, do you know why I change this?
• 28:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or I'll put in the comment bubbles here's why I'm changing this, that they understand.
• 28:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I try to do it, you know, so right now I'm in the stage where I'm trying to teach my younger partners how to mentor.
• 28:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think the fundamental thing about mentoring is making people feel safe enough to be able to ask the questions.
• 28:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I tell them every single day, I've been practicing over thirty years and every single day, I learn something new.
• 28:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're not learning something new, then you're not doing it right.
• 28:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so it may be a tip I get from somebody who hasn't been practicing as long, but I might go, I never thought of it that way, or maybe from watching somebody who's been doing something better.
• 29:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have a colleague with whom I've been
• 29:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: in leadership in three cases now, and I just marvel at the way he can take a deposition.
• 29:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm always, even if I'm not at the deposition, I will watch the video of his deposition, and I'll pick something up from it.
• 29:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's creating that like safe space, if you will, to tell the people who work for you, like, there's no question that's too stupid.
• 29:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: We all were there once, we all had to learn, and it's a learning process.
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: They call it the practice of law for a reason.
• 29:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: it's a practice and every day you should be kind of like making yourself a little bit better.
• 29:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I talked a bit earlier on, you know, like bats of clean court precedent and it's, you know, tough to be a plaintiff slayer particularly in federal court.
• 29:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, what keeps you up at night and also I want to end with what makes you feel positive and hopeful about the work you do.
• 29:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the current administration keeps me up at night and the current Supreme Court keeps me up at night because it's unpredictable.
• 30:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would rather have predicted ability.
• 30:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what the law is.
• 30:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: You want to expand it and you want it to fit societal norms and you want to advance it on behalf of the people that it affects, right?
• 30:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, decades ago, who would have thought some of these cases could have even existed, right?
• 30:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: if when you have this chaos that we have right now it's really hard to say it's really hard to say to a client like it's going to be okay you know we're going to we're going to power through the laws on our side because it's it's chaos right now I mean it does keep me up at night
• 30:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know what keeps me sane is you're still like okay, I'm California and I have to shout out for California.
• 30:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm still I'm still like in my West Coast bubble enough of the time in enough cases that I have faith in the judicial system because we have some incredible jurist out here and our climate politically is very different.
• 31:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we still, I think, as a state believe that state law prevails and that that's what, you know, that the courts really are the place where disputes are supposed to be taken and it's not supposed to be political and it's not supposed to be issue driven because of, you know, society, it's supposed to be something that you can count on.
• 31:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, state law still gives me some comfort and not just California, other states that, you know, still have
• 31:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, still still believing the constitution.
• 31:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah.
• 31:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the only thing that's going to come for these days, right?
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, well, one of high notes that end on my notes.
• 31:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: But, uh, seriously, uh, that very much appreciate your time enjoying the podcast today, everyone.
• 31:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Beth Graham, a great nice and offer.
• 31:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much.
• 31:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
• 31:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to this episode of Raising the Bar with Rebuttal PR.
• 31:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Don't forget to subscribe and follow it to join us next time.
• 32:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: See you then.