Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / The Enneagram, AI, and the Relationships That Still Need Repair with Christa Hardin (Enneagram and Marriage)

Transcript

The Enneagram, AI, and the Relationships That Still Need Repair with Christa Hardin (Enneagram and Marriage) · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:09
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast, the Enneagram for Real Life.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most.
0:33
SPEAKER_02: Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, that Christ is the transformation.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: Krista, I'm so excited because while you have been a frequent guest on the Simply Wholehearted Podcast, I am welcoming you to be the first time on Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast.
1:05
SPEAKER_02: So welcome.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: I am so happy to be here.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: I love your rebranding of the pod.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: You are such an Enneagram expert and the world deserves to know it.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: So very excited for this moment for you.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: It really has been an evolution, and you have just been a huge part of my Enneagram journey.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: And I do want to say we're in a way continuing a conversation that you and I had on your podcast because you are an Enneagram expert and you've also been a dear friend over Voxer and we have Zoom coffees often.
1:42
SPEAKER_02: And I just so appreciate how you have lived and really led your way in this world.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm just really grateful to have your support and encouragement and have you really lead the way in this space and a lot of different aspects.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for that vote of confidence.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing the work with you and I am so grateful that we're all learning together.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: So I love just geeking out on all things learning, marriage, research, family.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: So I'm so grateful for this time with you.
2:13
SPEAKER_02: Same here.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: Well, I wanted to share that little detail because these conversations, both the series that you're doing and the series that have really has really birthed here as well.
2:25
SPEAKER_02: The idea hatched, if you will, while you and I were just having personal catch up.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: And I don't even know what preempted it or why we ended up going down in this rabbit trail.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: And we were already wrapping up.
2:37
SPEAKER_02: And I mentioned two different things.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: One, a conversation my college daughter and my husband and I were having at the table about AI and its impact on connection and conversation and are the is the feedback we're getting siloed.
2:52
SPEAKER_02: But then another really concerning fact that I had someone I love very much share that their friend was using Chat GPT instead of going to their counselor, that they stopped working with the counselor and was using Chat GPT instead because they felt they got faster, more accurate diagnosis and information about their family, difficult family situation and dynamic.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: And I felt like I couldn't really engage fully with that conversation in a way I would be now, but it illuminated to me a concern that I already had.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: And I thought, okay, it's time to have these conversations.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: You and I, we talked about how we've both used it and we're not saying you can't use it.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: It's here to stay, it's not going anywhere.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: But I'm excited to hear your perspective and take on AI and the impact it's having specifically in marriages.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: Because as I've done my certification, Andrew, you you have so much information of how the Enneagram can support, help heal, encourage, and strengthen marriages for so many.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: So I just would love to hear first when did you start using AI and what was some of your first was it repelling?
4:05
SPEAKER_02: Were you excited about it?
4:07
SPEAKER_02: How was that first introduction for you?
4:10
SPEAKER_01: For me, I saw people using it for a long time before I jumped on, I would say a good year.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: And I kept thinking, okay, this is kind of weird and quirky, and I'm not gonna rush in, but I'm trying not to judge.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: I just felt like it was a little bit.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: The early adopting felt to me like it was too quirky and too unsophisticated.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: I would see funny people would do funny memes across Instagram and say, look what chat GPT told me.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: And it would, as we all know, have very weird information that was very off.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: I love your information.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: So I was like, I'm not even looking at that.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden I would say, about maybe a little longer than this, but I'm gonna say six months ago, I'll say eight months ago, just to give a little extra.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: But my husband started to talk more about it.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: And he was starting to use Gemini in his way home from work and ask a lot of scientific questions.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: And he was starting to use it with a female voice, and it dawned on me.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: And we were on Zach Brittle's marriage therapy radio podcast together, and I was like, Oh my gosh, Wes, are you using this as a bypass on calling me after work?
5:20
SPEAKER_00: And he was like, No, because we don't even talk after work.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: True.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: Um bit of an anxious attachment response there.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: And then just a sense of like, oh my gosh, am I missing my husband?
5:34
SPEAKER_01: Is he trying to talk to me and he can't talk to me?
5:37
SPEAKER_01: And he's talking to an AI companion named Gemini.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: And so that started a good conversation, and then I had to see what it was about.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: So I downloaded an AI platform, and then I realized, oh wow, people could get sucked into this very much in that way.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: And Wes assured me, I'm having fun asking geeking out science questions.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: At the time, he was writing a book and he was using AI to write a book.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: And so I actually was really enjoying what he was doing once he let me in on it, which was pretty early because we talk every day.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: So he was like, Yeah, this is what I'm talking about with Gemini and coming up with this sci-fi idea.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: And it was like really getting the ball rolling for our family.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: And then very shortly after, it was like he realized that one of the books he was writing couldn't be written because it was copyrighted and it was fan fiction, but it was just an interesting start for our family because he said, I don't have to do it for a bigger world, but at least for our family, I wanted to create this book and I enjoyed hearing it, but it was happening so fast that this is just a silly story.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: We were at a dance weekend, and I was trying to focus on the girls as much as I could, also knowing my husband and son are there, and they are bored out of their minds.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: It was Melody's year at that time, plus their hearts.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: They've done a lot of dance shows, right?
6:56
SPEAKER_01: They have, and the girls are done-ish now, but like this was like the big senior year, and he's listened to my next chapter, and this is the crazy part, as you can imagine, the chapters were coming out within seconds, and so I'm like, I have time to listen to a chapter, but like I'm also wanting to be present, and so I just want to kind of name the explosiveness in the way it came to our family, and then we had to work on that together of just AI is coming at us.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
7:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
7:25
SPEAKER_02: I actually would love for you to expand on that because it is the pace and the little bit of space that we're being like thrust into like words and story and all of that.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: So, what does that do to us personally from just like even a therapist standpoint?
7:45
SPEAKER_02: But then how does that impact our most important relationships, especially our marriage?
7:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it creates a fantasy of life for us because we can use it to the point that we buy the extra program, which he had bought at that time, and we could have almost unlimited conversation and new ideas rolling out.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: And he's a really responsible type one individual for those who probably know Enneagram here.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: And so it didn't take him long to pull right back and be like, I definitely don't want this to take over.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: He's very active physically, emotionally, but even us, we were getting sucked in because I was loving these stories.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, tell me more as soon as I can get done with this next dance change.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: And he was growing a bit impatient at first because he had all this rich information.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: He's like, When are you gonna be listening again?
8:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh my gosh, Wes.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: So I guess I'm just naming that the assault on everybody, including us, was there, even though we tend to be a little more of that responsible couple.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we had to pull back.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people, here's where the danger is a lot of people aren't in the field of therapy and medical like he is, because he's a medical provider, and they're not thinking, oh, my blood pressure is raising up, or this isn't good for my eyes.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: And so just even just taking in the bodily awareness is something Wes and I do.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: And so we were able to notice, watch ourselves, examine it, check in and say, this is overuse, let's pull back.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: And he was pretty much soon out of it and now uses it probably daily still, but not nearly at that, say, like the whole ride home way.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: Now he's more thoughtful on his way home.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: He said, I like silence.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: You said that you like silence on my podcast.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: And so I guess we're learning to use it responsibly along with the rest of the world and just to take a lot more pauses.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: But I think unfortunately, a lot of people statistically are not pausing.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would love to hear some of those stats because you are one of my researcher friends.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: Now, as a disclaimer, I have a couple of those researcher friends.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: I love to learn, but I'm not really a like it depends on the topic.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: When I was worried about using the Enneagram as a Christian, I put on that Enneagram 5 hat and I went deep into research mode.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: But I typically rely on good friends to tell me what I need to know.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: So, Krista, what are some of those stats we should be taking into consideration as we choose how to intentionally engage with AI?
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, there's several stats and other concerning factors.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: I'll just go over them pretty quickly.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: But for one, know that a lot of AI is being created by a very small sector of humans.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: Admittedly, they're saying, hey, I'm usually a homogenous sort of white male in the upper escalon of making money, kind of SES bracket.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: And I want to just name that I am the one feeding the information in.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: Now there are other women like Daniela Braga, I've heard of.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: She's the founder and CEO of Defined AI, and she's working on trying to bring ethics in and scale responsibly.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: There's other women as well doing a ton of work to bring emotional intelligence to the digital world.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: It's just happening slowly and largely the people working, as we all know, at places like Open AI, et cetera, have largely been these people in this one small group.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: And so just to expand upon our horizons together, when you think you're getting this AI from somebody who's very well-versed and ethical and has all this, there's this fantasy thinking that you heard Wes and I doing a little, but oh, this is like a whole compilation of all the wisdom of the world that has ever been.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: And the people giving me advice are now just brilliant geniuses.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: And it's not often it's just people who are just not even at all therapeutic and have not been trained in any mental health form.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: So this is unfortunately we're seeing in our culture people have committed suicide.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: People have been told how they can do terrible things to themselves and each other.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: And I'll just say the statistics specifically, a couple of them are that a lot of people are using AI at this point, 77% or so have some form of AI, but a lot of people don't even know because, like you said, even Google prompts are using AI now.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: Concerningly, 75% of kids are shit showing forth from common sense media that they have an AI companion.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then lastly, I'll just say a lot of business owners are that are even more educated are using it, which to me is a little bit concerning in the way that the more educated we are, you would think we would want more creativity, but the more educated we are, seems like the more shortcuts we're taking.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: So those are just a few things for us all to hold on to.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: There's so many directions I want to go on that topic alone.
12:36
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's for us to understand that we might idealize AI to say it's an unbiased, unfiltered, ethical, moral voice in which to get information.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: And maybe we'd even put wisdom and guidance.
12:54
SPEAKER_02: But the caution here and what the stats are telling us is to go now, is that true?
13:02
SPEAKER_02: While our friend might be slightly biased at some point, they it we do oftentimes know where their moral, ethical values are, the life they've lived, the choices they've made, the wisdom they've had from those.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: So even if we if we're bypassing our friend to go to AI for the answers, we might be missing out on the nuance of wisdom that our friend can offer.
13:28
SPEAKER_02: So we can continue talking about that and let the hearer understand.
13:33
SPEAKER_02: Start thinking for yourself on this too.
13:35
SPEAKER_02: Just fact check for yourself how you're using it, what you're seeking information exactly on.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: And is it, are you getting information or are you getting wisdom and taking soul direction from your AI companion or your chosen AI platform?
13:51
SPEAKER_02: One of Yeah, one of those things, because part of this conversation is the quickness at which we can get information from AI versus a friend or the quick hit that we can get from it versus the a relationship, a real relationship.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: So tell me a little bit about how you're seeing this impact marriage at a broader level.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: You gave an example of you and Wes of how that could there's some danger, even in what you said.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: Was this a replacement for conversation with you?
14:24
SPEAKER_02: Now it really wasn't at the end of the day, but where can you see that maybe being a difficulty if marriage partners are relying on AI too much for different things?
14:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, and it could have been if it kept going in that way where he was exhausting himself and that was like against his type one morality.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people aren't once.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: He has a really strong inner critic that's you need to spend time with your wife and kids and do all these other things for people.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: He's also the social subtype.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't likely to last.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: It was a bit of a novelty, but for people who are more self-preservation inclined, especially, and that's a lot of us after COVID.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: I think that it it presents as though it would be this amazing gift to us and feels like it initially, but we're still seeing an overuse on technology lead to more depression, loneliness.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's about one again, it's staggering, but it's only about one quarter of the people feeding the AI answers are women.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: So only about 25%.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: And so you're having this sense of a 75% or maybe even more, because maybe not all 25% of those women in AI are actually feeding the answers.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: A huge percentage of male-dominated answers to questions.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: And so when we're asking it for relationship advice, we're largely heal hearing from a particular type of male giving us answers.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: And two other men may even have an advantage to men in the relationship because it's just going to be a bias, right?
15:47
SPEAKER_01: We all have biases without realizing it.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: And if I was giving a friend that's a woman an answer, my best friend, we might be sending each other an email or a we send sometimes a funny meme that's like girls supporting girls, you know?
15:59
SPEAKER_01: And so there's just a sense of distrust that I have around AI for helping with any real legitimacy, other than just like I said, using it for a quick brainstorm, like what are some date nights, or tell me this scientific fact.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: And then, like you said, fact-checking it.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: These are better, more responsible ways to use it.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Help me write my list.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I'll do that with AI.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: But often I just prefer even to write my list like yesterday.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: I just wrote my to-do list in my little paper notebook because I preferred that.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: So those are some of the concerns I have is the advice, it's not being given professionally.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: I really want people to leave this episode knowing that you cannot bypass your emotional work with another human.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: And then lastly, around that topic, I want to name that John Bowby and Mary Ainsworth did a lot of studies in attachment research many years ago, as you know.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: Um and they really saw that even though people had often been given just the absolute necessities of life, they needed human connection to even survive, much less thrive.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: So don't forget that even if you get all your information from AI and you have your food and your water and your drink or whatever it is, your favorite kind of life purpose, self-pres things, you still need a human to connect with at the end of the day.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: And that is scientific research.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: As I was listening through the modules of the marriage and enneagram certification, what came to my mind was the alone show.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: Have you guys seen that?
17:28
SPEAKER_02: I think it's on the National Geographic Channel.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: And it's there's many seasons now, I don't remember how many, but basically the premises of the show is that these people are sent off in different spaces and places where they have to survive and ultimately they have to survive alone.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: And what you just stated factually is proven in this every single season, which is someone could have the water they need, the food they have they can get and a shelter, but they are dying on the vine because they miss their people and human connection so much because they have nothing.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: They have themselves and a camera.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: And I think sometimes the test was can they last 50 days, 100 days?
18:13
SPEAKER_02: It's varied every season, but it just that demonstrates and illustrates right there.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: And it never fails within a day or two.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: A lot of people are like, I miss my people so much.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: And we were created for human connection, as beautiful as solitude and talking to yourself and working with your hands and being in beauty.
18:35
SPEAKER_02: It's not enough to fill the hole that we are intended to have and with humans.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: So my gosh, thank you for sharing that.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: That just reiterates what I'm starting to feel.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: And this is something we're all having to feel out ourselves because we're all in this social experiment together, aren't we?
18:54
SPEAKER_02: We are.
18:55
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I want to have you expand on a little bit more of things that we were talking about.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: I alluded to this concept at the beginning where some people were choosing AI versus seeing a therapist, a counselor, or a coach because they were getting advice, maybe even choosing AI over reading a book or listening to a podcast.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: How what are some of the reasons or the benefits of choosing to go ahead and engage with a human or human-created conversation?
19:28
SPEAKER_02: Again, like podcasts hopefully are actual human conversation.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: What are some of the differences there or what you would even just guess the value is and why we want to maybe use AI for the quick answer, but for the long-term healing work, the emotional, intellectual work that we need to really be focusing on the human element of it instead of just the AI for a quick solution.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: Here's my go-to answer for anybody in this is would you like to picture for a moment your last IT tech that you had a conversation with as you brought your laptop in to either the Apple store or maybe the shop around the corner where you got it fix it fast kind of a place?
20:16
SPEAKER_01: Like everyone, just think of that for the moment.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: Who did you bring your computer to?
20:20
SPEAKER_01: You've got it in your minds probably now, right?
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Do you want that person for your therapist?
20:26
SPEAKER_01: Answer me that.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: No way, Jose.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: Do you want that person for your relationship coach?
20:34
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: Do you want that person deciding what you do with your kids?
20:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's a good idea.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: And we're not saying that those people are all gonna have like some of them are probably like amazing at that, but that is not their specialty.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: And whether they're in that aspect of AI development, or we have our, let's just imagine, and this is probably really imaginary, but let's imagine, even if it's the most scientifically amazing people who are the big rollers, they're still not marriage therapists, even if they're like the smartest people on coding.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: It still doesn't change the fact that I don't want them giving me that advice.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate if there's some research they can point me to, because they're amazing at that, right?
21:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, look this up and maybe there's a great study on attachment by John Bowby that and Mary Ainsworth that you can check out, Krista or Amy, if you're looking for more on this topic.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: There's a great book I can recommend.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: Here's a podcast to listen to.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: But for us to be like, what do I do about my marriage?
21:34
SPEAKER_01: That is not the question to be asking.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: So I just really appreciate you giving me the chance to share why I think that's not gonna be a good move.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: Let's suppose, Krista, that someday you and I, because everyone's doing it and because you have to do it to stay in business, is you have to develop your own AI model that you that you charge people a low monthly premium to use to be able to you.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: You've trained it and you have this model that you've input all your training and certification.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: Do you think it'd be really capable to do what you do with your couples over an hour, hour and a half session?
22:15
SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so because the amount of nuance and understanding that a human brings is so different with the little subtle nonverbals.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that AI is going to, at least for a long, long time.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: I know things are moving really fast, but they can't even get the joints and hands right still on Elon Musk's models of robots.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's going to be a long while before, I mean, maybe forever before they could actually mimic human understanding of the smallest nonverbals.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: And that's what you get when you work with a person who uses voice, or like we're doing Zoom and we're seeing each other too.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: And it's or in person, even more so.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: So I just think that is we've learned that nonverbals are up to 90% of our communication.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: So somebody who's just using a text-based AI, even a basic screen, can read some and it'll be cool to be like, oh my gosh, they could tell I was surprised, sad, et cetera.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: But the way we can notice a little shift, you moved in toward your spouse a little bit on this, or I saw a tear.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: These are layers that are, you don't even have to say it out loud if you're doing a counseling or coaching session, right?
23:28
SPEAKER_01: It's just intuitive because you're like, oh, that that wounded them when I said that.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: Let's pull back a little.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: So I just think that human element will never be able to be fully replaced.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: I love your idea.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: You're so good at ideas that we could get a lot closer than somebody else who's just working in the tech field at giving an AI model for our couples to use.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: And we have the paired app and other apps that do a good job with couples.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: So I love your idea of using for good.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it could be used for good.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: And I think this is where, and I know you and I, and there's a couple other coaches in this space, we've talked about how we all have some sort of roadmap that we use with our clients, whether it's our proprietary information or general Enneagram.
24:13
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, I've been trained now in your Enneagram and marriage, and there's guide sheets and information, everything.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: But you and I both know every single session, every single client, even if they're the same pairings we've worked with before, it all is so different.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: There's no way that an AI model could fully predict all the elements that come in.
24:35
SPEAKER_02: For me, most of the time, I always laugh because we have this guide sheet.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: And I think I haven't had the same session twice with anybody.
24:44
SPEAKER_02: And I could even go through the same session sheet with a client and a year later, bring that one back out, and it would be a totally different session because there's new stories, there's new layers.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: And for me as a faith-filled person, I am relying on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide.
25:02
SPEAKER_02: And that is something that I can promise you AI is never gonna have, even if the people building have it.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness, that is so true.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: And the nuance of what's ahead is something none of us know.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: And I've even looked, I've had I heard recently on Diary of a CEO podcast, they were having an AI expert come on and he was doomed forecasting, but he also had some hopefulness too.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: But he was in the AI space for 20 years and he said that it was like we he didn't call it this, but I've heard it called black swan events, where you cannot predict the massive, far-reaching impact of AI or anything around it.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: Finance markets, it's like all of our futures are so unpredictable.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: So AI cannot do that work for us of this is what you need to do from session to session.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: Even we can't do that, as you were saying.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: We can give our treatment plans, but it's never going to be exact because humans are never exact.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: But much less will AI ever be able to have predictive analysis for you.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, no, it's life is full of probabilities, and AI could do a good job of maybe helping you through some of that, just some basic science.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: Like, what are the probabilities if someone smokes that they could get cancer?
26:18
SPEAKER_01: But for them to really dig into your nonverbals in your life, you could, and I am so sorry to say this, but it's true.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna say it.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: I have already seen couples get badly screwed up from taking that route.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: Even clients of mine who are already working with me who want to work faster because they're like, you're not available 24-7.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna let AI tell me what to do in between our sessions.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is a nightmare.
26:42
SPEAKER_02: It is, and I that was one of the red flags for me.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: I didn't share the story on yours or earlier, but specifically, both my husband and I independently basically asked our chat models the same type of question for what we were trying to look for is maybe unvised third-party perspective.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and instead, because we were using it our on our own phones, and he uses maybe Gronk or something.
27:08
SPEAKER_02: I just I haven't explored outside of Chat GBT.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: That's where I stopped.
27:12
SPEAKER_02: But it was fascinating because very similar question, completely different answers that I was able to stand back and go, oh, wait a minute.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: My the response I got, the answer I got is very biased and leaning towards me to support my POV.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: And his clearly was because I could see that all day long, easily, right?
27:33
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's just your echo chamber here and siloed information telling you, reinforcing your perspective.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: And so I think that would quickly get couples into trouble as where your AI model is more affirming, more confirming, more validating at some level.
27:52
SPEAKER_02: And instead of coming together and let's figure this out together, let's learn together, let's invite wisdom into this, whether it's an older couple of counsel, friends who can give some input.
28:05
SPEAKER_02: And again, a coach or counselor who gets the multi-layered perspective and story and history that I don't know that chat GPT or an AI model could fully capture, especially not in a short amount of time.
28:20
SPEAKER_02: There's no way you can feed it all the things that play into the kind of wisdom you specifically need because we are each so different.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: Even with the upgraded model, I have to tell you guys that because clients have used that one of oh, I have the upgraded model.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, you still have doesn't matter.
28:39
SPEAKER_01: And you nailed it that people are ultimately trying to make money who create AI, they want to keep you on the platform longer.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: It's working.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: People are now on the platform more than ever.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: So just continue to take your time back and really allow yourself to say, I know this is biased information and do what Amy did with her husband.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: I actually did that after some clients told me about it just to see.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: I said, I'm a two, and I'm not a two, but I was like, I'm a two.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: And then I think I did nine or eight, but I found immediately it validated me and it told me that I was like better than my spouse from that perspective.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: And it was very interesting just to see how quickly it was like, oh, I'm so sorry your spouse hurt you.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: That was so unfair, you know.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, and then I did the other, and it was the same exact but opposite.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: So I just want people to hear, I love your story.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing it.
29:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:29
SPEAKER_02: No, I'm so glad you said that too.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: It was actually kind of be my next question.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: So I wanted to take these conversations to not only challenge how AI is feeding into our lives or how it's impacting our relationships or different circles of community and influence.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: But I also wanted to just touch on really quick because this arena is very much impacted by AI.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: And I think we're not as discerning as we need to be when we get on social media platforms.
29:58
SPEAKER_02: So, in short, I'm curious because you and I are active on social media.
30:02
SPEAKER_02: We're actively offering content, some of it's information, sometimes it's story-based.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: We're both trying to offer our light into that space and a healthy perspective.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: But there is some often goofy things out there.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: And I'm curious for you because you're not a long scroller either.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: But has there been anything about Enneagram or Enneagram and marriage or marriage that you've seen on social media that you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: I hope people understand that they really need to do some fact checking on this, or this could be damaging or unhelpful to relationship if they're solely getting advice and wisdom from social media.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, I love how you moved it to just that direction because absolutely I feel like people, when they're maybe having a cynical day, some of them are even just pure cynics because we know are just very negative.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: They're not doing anything about their probably unintentional but natural inclination to just go negative.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: So they're just posting all the worst of every personality type.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's just not uplifting, it's not the way people are actually change and grow because we need a lot of couching of kindness as humans.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: We grow through encouragement and we grow through encouragement surrounded by when it's healthy, some actual strengthening tools like, hey, this could be corrected, in the middle of 18 out of 20 times actually being positive.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: And so when you see a lot of accounts that are not trying to at least do four out of five good or 18 out of 20 good to encourage people, you're just seeing them polarize their spouses, people watching more.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: And then they come back with, yeah, I hate that type.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: I see what you're saying.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: They're totally selfish, they're so totally bad.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: It looks like you've probably seen that too.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's just so discouraging because it pigeonholes people, it makes them feel so reductive that they can't get out of the box of the shameful typing they've gotten themselves into.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: And it's, ooh, it's just so toxic and shaming and damning.
32:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:02
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I think we have to, the algorithm is not usually working in our favor.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: It's gonna feed us things that catch our attention, and what catches our attention is not necessarily uplifting and kind and beneficial, and it can put a lot of false messages in our heads and in our hearts that are not gonna help us.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: Well, I know I put you on the spot with that one, but I feel like it's really important because it's not that it's AI generated, but people might be using AI to gen help formulate their content and maybe even their stance or approach.
32:35
SPEAKER_02: And it is another piece of information we need to be fact-checking and not just taking it.
32:41
SPEAKER_02: We're whether it's Enneagram and marriage related, that goes for all the things.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: Please don't diagnose yourself on Instagram, please.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, thank you.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: And all the way, yes to what you just said about the negativity, because you and I are in the building space of how can we make our accounts bigger and better.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: And that's just part of being in the Instagram space, is you want to reach more people.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: So I follow a leader, I won't share the name, but they're a good leader.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: And they just said the negative headline is really good.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: And I just thought, oh my gosh.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: So what you said is basically what I said, please don't just read the bad.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: But then we're realizing some people are growing their accounts through just focusing on the bad, and that's making more money and grow their account.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: And so we have to really consider why are these people sharing in such an emergency way?
33:29
SPEAKER_01: And then our brains get addicted to I need to find that next trauma.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Like it's weird, but we all want that next bad thing, right?
33:36
SPEAKER_01: Like when you hear you want to stop on the side of the road and see the accident, that's what's happening with these posts.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: Ooh, yeah.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: So, consumer, beware as a consumer, understand that people are growing their accounts with bad information that might be misinformation too.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: So beware.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: So be aware of that.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: Me and Amy are trying not to do that.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to learn and grow, but we're also trying to grow ethically.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: When you have a morality, you have a different chance of I want to grow, but I want to grow safely, wisely, well.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: And so I love that.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: I already know that about you.
34:09
SPEAKER_02: It might look slower, but that's okay.
34:11
SPEAKER_02: It's, I would prefer that.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: It's healthier in the long run for both of us.
34:15
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
34:16
SPEAKER_02: I want to wrap this up with a more serious question because I want your gifts and talents to shine here.
34:22
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I've gotten certified in the Enneagram and marriage coaching.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we could talk if you wanted me to work with you.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: Those of our friends who are listening to us and they're thinking about getting marriage coaching or whatever.
34:33
SPEAKER_02: But specifically, I have Krista on, and the reason why I learned from her is she's the expert.
34:38
SPEAKER_02: So, one of the ways I'd love for you to let your light shine, because this I feel encompasses you as a whole.
34:44
SPEAKER_02: But if you could whisper a truth to the woman who feels maybe hopeless about her marriage or just emotionally exhausted even, how would you want to encourage her?
34:56
SPEAKER_02: What would you want to say?
34:58
SPEAKER_01: Wow, I love this question.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: And I would tell this woman to get quiet, to turn off the noise for a little while, to just take a deep breath, to sigh, maybe even right here with us, to just close her eyes and just allow herself to breathe deeply.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: Just slow down, turn off, put the phone even behind you.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: You can still hear our voices.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: And just allow yourself a moment to pause and then to ask yourself if you have your basic needs met right now.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: And if you don't start there with a glass of water, you were entitled to that with a two-minute resting your eyes breath work practice.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: I know Amy is amazing at breath prayers that she shared.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: Just letting yourself be still and know that God is with you and that you are loved no matter what is happening.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: And I also want to remind you that you've not been given a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind, which means when you're pausing and resting and just taking that glass of water, you're coming back to your healthy space of homeostasis, of an open window of tolerance.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: And then from there, you are empowered to make choices.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: Whereas, as you heard me say, me and Wes felt like life was rushing at us with that AI and this account and that account telling us to do different things.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: And when you close your eyes, pause, put the phone out of eye shot or eyesight, it just gives you a moment to be like, oh my gosh, I can make good choices.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: What's the next best thing to do here?
36:34
SPEAKER_01: And just know that you have been given that spirit of power.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to look elsewhere for it.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: You have God's spirit inside of you.
36:42
SPEAKER_02: Ah, Krista, that was beautiful.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
36:45
SPEAKER_02: Again, our friends need to understand that you and I do not rehearse or even send questions ahead of time.
36:51
SPEAKER_02: We are just literally putting each other on the spot, basically, and having a conversation in real time because we can do that at seven.
36:59
SPEAKER_02: So it's fun.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: It's fun for us, actually.
37:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:02
SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much for doing this with me, for having this conversation to be part of this new adventure and new growth for Simply Wholehearted and now the wholehearted Enneagram podcast.
37:15
SPEAKER_02: Tell my friends how they can find you, all the good stuff that they can expect from you, because you got a lot.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Amy.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: You're amazing.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: I love this show and your beautiful presence.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: And if anyone wants to find me, you can go to enneagramandmarriage.com.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: You can also find me at Enneagram and Marriage at Instagram and as a podcast as well.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: And my book is the Enneagram in Marriage.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm writing my next book now, but I'm really excited to share any research I have with you.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: As Amy said, I have a coaching certification as well.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: That is over 12 hours of actual live teaching.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: I'll be starting up in January again live if you want to attend live.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: So thank you, Amy, for this time together.
37:59
SPEAKER_02: Ah, Krista, it was such a joy.
38:01
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, and all the best to you.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, you two.
38:07
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for joining me for the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: If this conversation spoke to you, please share it with a friend.
38:17
SPEAKER_02: You can also visit simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: And remember, friend, your starting point doesn't have to be your stuff point.