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Bonus Episode: Charles Manson the Music Man · DISGRACELAND

0:01
Speaker 1: Hey, discos, need a little more Disgraceland in your life,
0:05
Speaker 1: just to touch to get you through. Yeah, me too.
0:08
Speaker 1: This is the podcast that comes after the podcast. Welcome
0:11
Speaker 1: to Disgraceland the After Party. Welcome to the second installment
0:29
Speaker 1: of the new and improved same as before, but slightly
0:32
Speaker 1: more awesome Disgraceland After Party. On this episode, we're talking
0:37
Speaker 1: about the past episode of Disgraceland on Charles Manson. Yes
0:41
Speaker 1: that Charles Manson. Why because yeah, he was a musician
0:46
Speaker 1: and in addition to being a murderer. And we're also
0:48
Speaker 1: discussing Trent Reznor, Mama Cass Elliott, Richard Ramirez, Frank Costello,
0:53
Speaker 1: all Quiet on the Western Front, More White Lotus season two,
0:56
Speaker 1: and a whole lot of Rosie to round us out.
0:58
Speaker 1: All right, before we get if a listener calls, text
1:01
Speaker 1: and emails, let's get into it. So Charles Manson short
1:17
Speaker 1: dude had a sex call back in the sixties. Was
1:20
Speaker 1: a murderous hippie freaked America out, that dude, you know,
1:23
Speaker 1: the one He died in prison a couple of years ago,
1:25
Speaker 1: snuggled up against his body pincushion. Yes, that Charles Manson.
1:29
Speaker 1: He was indeed a musician. This is a main component
1:33
Speaker 1: of our last episode of Disgraceland. Manson the musician, Charles
1:37
Speaker 1: Manson the music man. Manson as a musician is something
1:41
Speaker 1: that either gets overlooked or at best is giving passing
1:44
Speaker 1: attention or is laughed off, and for good reason. Charles
1:48
Speaker 1: Manson wasn't that great of a musician, that was clear,
1:51
Speaker 1: but music. More specifically, his attempts at a career in
1:54
Speaker 1: music are at the very heart of the story of
1:56
Speaker 1: the murders of Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Abigail Folger, voy
2:00
Speaker 1: Tech Freikowski, Stephen parent, Rosemary and Leno Lavianka, and even
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Speaker 1: Gary Hillman. We think of Manson as a murderer, a
2:07
Speaker 1: cult leader, even a serial killer, but not as a musician.
2:10
Speaker 1: Like I said, why or why not when music was
2:14
Speaker 1: clearly at the center of Manson's story. By now, if
2:17
Speaker 1: you've been listening to disgraceand at least you know the story,
2:20
Speaker 1: the story that Charles Manson aspired to be a rock star,
2:23
Speaker 1: to use music to lead the masses, and that he
2:26
Speaker 1: made some famous fans of his music. None other than
2:28
Speaker 1: Neil Young tried to get Charles Manson signed to a
2:30
Speaker 1: record deal with Moe Austin and Warner Brothers and Dennis
2:34
Speaker 1: Wilson of The Beach Boys. Of course, hopd Charlie up
2:36
Speaker 1: with fanned record producer, Wilson's buddy and Bird's producer Terry
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Speaker 1: Melcher to help develop in groom Manson for his music career.
2:44
Speaker 1: Terry Melcher, of course knew what Neil Young and Dennis
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Speaker 1: Wilson somehow didn't, and that was that Charles Manson sucked
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Speaker 1: as a musician. Sure, he had some interesting ideas, and
2:54
Speaker 1: like I detail in the episode, if the mood and
2:56
Speaker 1: the vibe was right and he wasn't too fucked up,
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Speaker 1: Charlie could string together a couple of stream of conscious
3:02
Speaker 1: verses over some poorly played chords on an acoustic guitar
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Speaker 1: in a way that suggested music. But musician hardly. Charlie
3:10
Speaker 1: didn't have the goods. But still that doesn't erase the
3:13
Speaker 1: fact that, like I said, music is at the heart
3:16
Speaker 1: of Charles Manson's story and the Beatles' music is at
3:19
Speaker 1: the heart of the helter skelter motives that prosecuting attorney
3:22
Speaker 1: Vincent Buliosi used to convict Manson of the murders. Yet
3:26
Speaker 1: in the official narrative about Charles Manson, He's constantly referred
3:29
Speaker 1: to as a quote unquote failed musician that descriptor never
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Speaker 1: quite jive for me. Failure suggests a lack of impact
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Speaker 1: or a significance, and when it comes to Manson's music,
3:43
Speaker 1: that's hardly the case. Sure, Manson failed to capture the
3:46
Speaker 1: year of Terry Melcher and Buliosi used that fact to
3:49
Speaker 1: establish motive for the tape murders orchestrated by Charlie, a
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Speaker 1: claim that I think is bullshit. By the way, thanks
3:55
Speaker 1: to Tom O'Neil's excellent book Chaos. But more on this
3:58
Speaker 1: bogus motive than the upcoming moment episodes, and more on
4:01
Speaker 1: O'Neill's book later in this episode, but I digress Melcher's
4:04
Speaker 1: passing on Manson aside, Charles Manson's music did indeed have
4:09
Speaker 1: a lasting impact. His music was recorded and released by
4:13
Speaker 1: some of the biggest artists on the planet and helped
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Speaker 1: shaped and influence generations of musicians to come. We touch
4:21
Speaker 1: on this at the end of our Manson episode, but
4:23
Speaker 1: I want to get more to that here in this
4:25
Speaker 1: bonus episode. In just one second, Okay, in the fall
4:49
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety three, when they were arguably the biggest
4:52
Speaker 1: rock and roll band in the world, Guns N' Roses
4:55
Speaker 1: released an EP called the Spaghetti Incident. It included a
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Speaker 1: hidden track with admit a great title called look at
5:02
Speaker 1: Your Game Girl, and the song was originally released back
5:05
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy on an album called Lie the Love
5:08
Speaker 1: and Terror Cult by You Guessed It. Charles Manson. Apparently
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Speaker 1: the other members of Guns and Roses didn't want anything
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Speaker 1: to do with the song and did not contribute to
5:15
Speaker 1: the recording of the song, and of the reasons that
5:17
Speaker 1: the song was unlisted on the original liner notes this
5:20
Speaker 1: was an Axel Rose jam. The release of the song
5:23
Speaker 1: led to instant condemnation for the band from a broad
5:26
Speaker 1: spectrum of concerned citizens, including none other than their record
5:29
Speaker 1: label boss David Geffen, who said of the incident, quote,
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Speaker 1: I would hope that if Axel Rose had realized how
5:36
Speaker 1: offensive people would find this, he would not have ever
5:39
Speaker 1: recorded the song in the first place. End quote. Geffen
5:42
Speaker 1: went on to The La Times to say the fact
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Speaker 1: that Charles Manson would be earning money based on the
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Speaker 1: fame he derived from committing one of the most horrific
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Speaker 1: crimes of the twentieth century is unthinkable to me. Unquote
5:54
Speaker 1: money quick math based on royalty rates from nineteen ninety
5:57
Speaker 1: three that I stole from an article in the Baltimore
5:59
Speaker 1: sum but low key hoping you'll think I'm smart enough
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Speaker 1: to pull out for my ass work out to be
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Speaker 1: about sixty two thousand dollars to Charles Manson for every
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Speaker 1: one million copies of the Guns and Roses EP the
6:08
Speaker 1: Spaghetti Incident that was sold. Doesn't sound like a failed
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Speaker 1: musician to me, But it doesn't matter. Geffen intervened, and
6:16
Speaker 1: he made sure that the royalties never made their way
6:18
Speaker 1: to Manson in prison. Instead, he made sure that the
6:21
Speaker 1: money went to bartech Fraikowski on behalf of Manson Family
6:24
Speaker 1: murder victim voy tech Frakowski. It also doesn't matter because
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Speaker 1: the song sucks, both the G and R version and
6:32
Speaker 1: the Manson version. But you know it doesn't suck the
6:36
Speaker 1: Brian Jonestown Massacres rendition of Manson song Arkansas entitled Arkansas Revisited,
6:42
Speaker 1: nor does Evan Dando from The Lemonad's cover of Charlie's
6:46
Speaker 1: Your Home Is where You're Happy. With a little digging,
6:49
Speaker 1: it isn't hard to see the influence and the impact
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Speaker 1: that Charles Manson's music had on a later generation of musicians,
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Speaker 1: those who were influential on their own right. And like
6:59
Speaker 1: I say in our episode, Trent Resner of Nine Inch
7:01
Speaker 1: Nails moved in to Roman Polanski and Sharon Tate's house
7:06
Speaker 1: where Tate and her friends were brutally murdered by Charlie's followers.
7:10
Speaker 1: It's where Trent worked on the Nine Inch Nails album
7:13
Speaker 1: The Downward Spiral, and that album does Not Suck. Resnor
7:17
Speaker 1: also recorded Marilyn Manson, who obviously took his name from Charlie,
7:21
Speaker 1: in Tate's former house, San Siello Drive, as well, but
7:24
Speaker 1: ultimately Trent moved out from the Hollywood Hills home when
7:27
Speaker 1: he had a chance run in with Sharon Tate's sister,
7:29
Speaker 1: who asked him why he was exploiting her sister's death.
7:33
Speaker 1: He never thought of it that way. Of course, Trent
7:35
Speaker 1: was just trying to get close to the American folklore,
7:37
Speaker 1: up close in personal with the weirdness of history. But
7:40
Speaker 1: ultimately the meeting caused him to consider the victims, something
7:43
Speaker 1: he hadn't really done prior, and it's something that we
7:45
Speaker 1: should all try to do when we're delving into these
7:47
Speaker 1: insane true crime stories. I try, I do. I fail sometimes,
7:52
Speaker 1: but I do try. Charles Manson was not a failed musician,
7:55
Speaker 1: though his music had lasting impact, despite the fact that
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Speaker 1: his music, at least his recording of it, was not good.
8:03
Speaker 1: I was offered a first pressing edition of Lie the
8:05
Speaker 1: Love and Terror Call Charlie's record on vinyl about a
8:08
Speaker 1: year ago for my friend Dylan at Noble Records for
8:11
Speaker 1: five hundred bucks. A lot of money, sure, but I felt.
8:16
Speaker 1: I don't want to say it. I don't want to
8:17
Speaker 1: overstate how I felt, but I felt a little bit.
8:20
Speaker 1: I think of what Trent Reznor must have felt when
8:22
Speaker 1: considering his association with that house, that Macab feeling of
8:27
Speaker 1: being up close and personal to something that's so dark
8:30
Speaker 1: and such a big part of history. I passed on
8:33
Speaker 1: buying that record, not because I'm a more virtuous person
8:36
Speaker 1: or anything like that. I'm not, but because I was
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Speaker 1: freaked out. I don't want that kind of evil lying
8:41
Speaker 1: around my house. And when we come back after this break,
8:44
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a different evil from a
8:46
Speaker 1: different record than I'm very happy to have lying around
8:49
Speaker 1: my house. All right, Before we get to listener, calls, texts,
9:07
Speaker 1: and emails. I want to talk to you about what
9:08
Speaker 1: I'm reading, what I'm watching, and what I'm listening to.
9:12
Speaker 1: The theme of this culture that I'm absorbing over the
9:14
Speaker 1: past week Evil and that's the name of the record
9:18
Speaker 1: you need to check out, partially Miles Davis's Live Evil.
9:23
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I touched on this album the Miles
9:25
Speaker 1: Davis episodes I released. I think I did. I think
9:27
Speaker 1: I've mentioned it at least, but I pulled it out
9:29
Speaker 1: again last month for Halloween and was quickly reminded of
9:32
Speaker 1: how incredible this record is as an album. It defies categorization.
9:38
Speaker 1: I will say it's definitely not your Miles Davis that
9:41
Speaker 1: your dad listened to. This is seventies era, drugged out
9:44
Speaker 1: Miles trying to fuck up Size Stone, aggressively weird Miles Davis.
9:48
Speaker 1: It's electric, it's funky, it's dark, and again it's weird
9:51
Speaker 1: in all the best ways. Check it out Live Evil
9:54
Speaker 1: by Miles Davis. Speaking of Evil, I'm reading The Life
9:58
Speaker 1: and Crimes of Rich Ramirez, the Nightstalker, and holy shit,
10:03
Speaker 1: is it great. Let me tell you something. I read
10:05
Speaker 1: a lot, and I read a lot of true crime,
10:07
Speaker 1: and this is one of the best true crime books
10:08
Speaker 1: that I've ever read. I'm reading it to research the
10:11
Speaker 1: upcoming ACDC episode that I'm doing, and I cannot put
10:13
Speaker 1: it down. Richard Ramirez was a special kind of evil,
10:17
Speaker 1: and evil that's really hard to imagine. It has me
10:20
Speaker 1: running to the Bible. I'm not even kidding, it's that
10:22
Speaker 1: fucked up. I'm looking for an explanation. I can't get one.
10:25
Speaker 1: I don't know how this dude did what he did.
10:28
Speaker 1: And the author, the late great Philip Carlo, He captures
10:31
Speaker 1: Ramirez on an intimate level that makes all his actions
10:34
Speaker 1: all the more horrifying and especially creepy. This book has
10:38
Speaker 1: me getting up to check if my doors are locked
10:40
Speaker 1: on a regular basis. I'm not even kidding. The last
10:42
Speaker 1: book to do that for me was Tom O'Neill's Chaos,
10:45
Speaker 1: Charles Manson, The CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties.
10:48
Speaker 1: This is the book that led me down the rabbit
10:50
Speaker 1: hole to produce this latest episode on Manson and the
10:52
Speaker 1: upcoming two episodes on Mama Cass. I've talked a lot
10:56
Speaker 1: about Chaos before, but it's just because it's so damn good.
11:00
Speaker 1: It's worthy of talking about and the best way I
11:02
Speaker 1: can describe it is this. You know all the crazy
11:04
Speaker 1: batshit theories and anecdotes about the Manson murders. Well, O'Neill's
11:08
Speaker 1: book Chaos provides a thoroughly source spine of information to
11:12
Speaker 1: disrupt the narrative that we've been fed about why and
11:15
Speaker 1: how these murders happened and just who exactly was involved.
11:20
Speaker 1: Read it, listen to the Mama Cass episodes coming up
11:23
Speaker 1: in Disgraceland, and you will be forever squinting between the
11:25
Speaker 1: lines of Helter Skelter and possibly calling bullshit on the
11:29
Speaker 1: whole damn thing. Chaos, Tom O'Neil, get it and read
11:33
Speaker 1: it before the Netflix stock comes out. All right, I
11:37
Speaker 1: got two recommendations for what I'm watching. Sticking with the
11:40
Speaker 1: theme of evil, I have to talk about the new
11:42
Speaker 1: movie All Quiet on the Western Front. I cannot remember
11:46
Speaker 1: the last movie I watched where I caught myself staring
11:48
Speaker 1: motionless with my mouth literally open. My jaw just dropped.
11:52
Speaker 1: I was afraid to move. I didn't want to look away.
11:55
Speaker 1: This is probably the greatest war movie that I've ever seen.
11:58
Speaker 1: If the horror of war is unimaginable, the filmmakers here
12:02
Speaker 1: did something that's never been done before. They imagined it,
12:04
Speaker 1: and they brought it to the screen in a way
12:06
Speaker 1: that makes Saving Private Ryan look like a fucking PG
12:08
Speaker 1: thirteen feel good hit of the summer. This is incredible filmmaking,
12:12
Speaker 1: and it is dark and horrifying. I don't let that
12:16
Speaker 1: stop you, though, dive in. It's fantastic. You gotta watch it.
12:21
Speaker 1: All Quiet on the Western Front the twenty twenty two edition.
12:25
Speaker 1: All Right, I'm all caught up on White Lotus season two,
12:28
Speaker 1: and I'm waiting with baited breath for the next episode.
12:30
Speaker 1: As I know all of you are. I realized something
12:33
Speaker 1: when I watched this last episode. One of the cool
12:37
Speaker 1: tricks that this show plays. It's the way it presents
12:40
Speaker 1: all these modern day cultural issues on whatever, on politics, gender, class, etc.
12:46
Speaker 1: It presents these arguments from both sides while maintaining this
12:50
Speaker 1: neutral point of view, and it makes the proponents of
12:53
Speaker 1: both sides on screen look thoroughly ridiculous. It's got this
12:56
Speaker 1: objectivity that I strive for in everyday life, and someday,
12:59
Speaker 1: I lucky, I'll get there. Until then, Mike White for President,
13:03
Speaker 1: all right, disc goes, let's hear from you. I want texts,
13:07
Speaker 1: I want your emails. I want your voicemails, I want
13:10
Speaker 1: your dms. Get in touch. Let me know what you're reading,
13:14
Speaker 1: let me know what you're watching, let me know what
13:16
Speaker 1: you're listening to. Send me some freaking podcast recommendations. Some
13:20
Speaker 1: I'm getting weird shit. I'm getting weird shit in the
13:22
Speaker 1: in the Google Voice voice box, and I'm here for it.
13:27
Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. Keep it coming, all right. A
13:29
Speaker 1: Texter from the six four to six area code who
13:31
Speaker 1: didn't give their first name sent me a bunch of
13:33
Speaker 1: awesome subjects for disgrace Land and bad Lands, and then
13:36
Speaker 1: randomly some close up shots of legendary mobster Frank Costello's mausoleum.
13:42
Speaker 1: Totally weird, totally awesome. I have no idea why this
13:45
Speaker 1: listener is hanging out in the cemetery snapping pictures of
13:47
Speaker 1: Mafia Boss tunes. But hey, like I said, I'm here
13:50
Speaker 1: for it. Send me more weird shit, America. I'm I'm listening,
13:53
Speaker 1: I'm watching, I'm looking. Give it to me. Text me
13:55
Speaker 1: at six one seven nine oh six six six three
13:59
Speaker 1: eight or go ahead, call to leave a voicemail. I'll respond.
14:02
Speaker 1: I try to check, not try, I do. I check
14:04
Speaker 1: every single message, not immediately, but I get to it
14:08
Speaker 1: and I respond. I try to respond to all of them.
14:11
Speaker 1: I think I've done a good job of responding. Texter
14:14
Speaker 1: Johnny Vinyl from the six one seven writes, what about
14:16
Speaker 1: a Johnny Thunders episode, to which I respond? I have
14:19
Speaker 1: an LAMF tattoo, so you know that that shit is
14:21
Speaker 1: going to be happening at some point, Johnny Vinyl, keep
14:24
Speaker 1: your ears open, Johnny Thunders will be coming your way.
14:27
Speaker 1: Johnny Vinyl from the six one seven also wrote he
14:30
Speaker 1: said that Bob Dylan said that he wished he could
14:34
Speaker 1: have written a song as good as Johnny Thunders. You
14:36
Speaker 1: can't put your arms around a memory. Is that true?
14:39
Speaker 1: I never heard that before. Is that from Dylan's new book?
14:43
Speaker 2: I don't know.
14:43
Speaker 1: It sounds like it might be. I haven't read Dylan's
14:45
Speaker 1: new book, have you? Is it worth reading? Let me know?
14:48
Speaker 1: Call text six one seven nine oh six six six
14:53
Speaker 1: three eight be like JT here bringing the recommendations. Here's
14:57
Speaker 1: JT's voicemail.
15:00
Speaker 2: Hey, Jake's JT out in California. Heay, first off, I
15:03
Speaker 2: love your shows, all of them. You guys kicked major ass.
15:07
Speaker 2: It entertains me on my long drives to work. Hey,
15:10
Speaker 2: I'd really love to hear an episode on the Red
15:13
Speaker 2: Hot Chili Peppers, in particular focusing on Hillel's slowback and
15:19
Speaker 2: his untimely death. Anyway, I thought that might be a
15:23
Speaker 2: good material. I don't know if you guys have even
15:25
Speaker 2: thought of it. You probably have, but anyway, keep up
15:27
Speaker 2: the good work.
15:30
Speaker 1: Why yes, JT. We have thought of doing an episode
15:33
Speaker 1: on the Red Hot Chili Peppers, but I've been saving it.
15:35
Speaker 1: I don't know much about Helle's death, but I'm a
15:37
Speaker 1: huge fan of the band, and I know a little
15:39
Speaker 1: bit about Anthony Keats is wild upbringing his dad that
15:42
Speaker 1: whole thing. So keep your ear out. We'll definitely be
15:45
Speaker 1: getting into the Chili Peppers in a future episode of Disgrace.
15:47
Speaker 1: Hand Emailer Will Cavanaugh from Australia Rights Hi, just thought
15:52
Speaker 1: I would write to say how much I love your podcast.
15:54
Speaker 1: I came across you during the first wave of lockdowns yeesh,
15:58
Speaker 1: and I've been gripped ever since. The way you make
16:00
Speaker 1: me feel that you are actually in the room, so
16:03
Speaker 1: to speak, when things are happening is right on. As
16:05
Speaker 1: you're a music guy, you may want to read this
16:07
Speaker 1: book Blood, Sweat and Beers an anthology of stories from
16:10
Speaker 1: Australian rock and roll and to quote your pods, some
16:13
Speaker 1: of the stories are insane. Well, I think you will.
16:16
Speaker 1: I will check that out. I've heard of this book before.
16:20
Speaker 1: You know what it's like. Sometimes you got to get
16:21
Speaker 1: things recommended once, twice, three times before you really dig in.
16:25
Speaker 1: So Blood Sweat and Beers, I'm going to check that
16:27
Speaker 1: out and will You'll be happy to know as an
16:30
Speaker 1: Australian that I started writing my ac DC episode today.
16:34
Speaker 1: That'll be out early in twenty twenty three. So guys
16:37
Speaker 1: be like, will send me your recommendations text or call
16:40
Speaker 1: at six one seven nine oh six six six three
16:44
Speaker 1: eight or email Disgracelandpod at gmail dot com or hit
16:48
Speaker 1: me up on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok at Disgraceland Pod.
17:03
Speaker 1: All right, this goes. This brings another bonus episode of
17:16
Speaker 1: Disgraceland to an end. Thank you so much for listening.
17:19
Speaker 1: Next up, like I said earlier, two parts on the
17:22
Speaker 1: Mamas and the papas Mama Cass Elliott in her connection
17:25
Speaker 1: to the Manson murders. These episodes are really just a
17:28
Speaker 1: continuation of the Charles Manson episode that preceded this drop.
17:31
Speaker 1: If you're listening to this on Tuesday before the holiday,
17:34
Speaker 1: please travel safe, enjoy your time with your families and
17:37
Speaker 1: your loved ones, and by all means, hit me up
17:40
Speaker 1: if you feel like blabbing again six one seven nine
17:43
Speaker 1: oh six six six three eight on the text and
17:45
Speaker 1: the voicemail. Disgracelampod at gmail dot com and at disgraceland
17:50
Speaker 1: Pod on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok now for my moment
17:55
Speaker 1: of Zen in honor of the Brian Jonestown massacre, a
17:58
Speaker 1: reading from nineteen sixty seven's Fayetteville, Arkansas phone Book, and
18:03
Speaker 1: if I pronounced Fayetteville, Arkansas wrong, I don't know what
18:07
Speaker 1: to tell you, man, never been there. Here you go.
18:10
Speaker 1: Hammond Alex nine O two Berry Hillcrest two dash five
18:16
Speaker 1: six eight nine, Hammond Hugo one zero one one, Hollywood
18:21
Speaker 1: Hillcrest three dash three two four six, Hammond IRA one
18:27
Speaker 1: two zero one, Wesley Hillcrest two dash four one zero three,
18:33
Speaker 1: Hammond Organ Studios of Fayetteville two four to two three.
18:37
Speaker 1: North College h I three dash two one three one,
18:42
Speaker 1: Hainy f L Missus two one four South Buchanan Hillcrest
18:47
Speaker 1: two dash two, two three one Hankys Eve Hillcrest two
18:53
Speaker 1: Dash five five three zero HANKSS. Kenneth one four three
18:58
Speaker 1: one six, works set three four Walks Clearance one six
19:05
Speaker 1: three three, Quit talking and start mixing.
19:11
Speaker 2: Cut