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They Shall Not See The Dawn The Manhunt For The 3rd Reichs Most Wanted From Charles Lachman · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: Enjoy your exploration. Hello, and good morning everybody. How's everybody
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  Speaker 1: doing today?
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  Speaker 2: I always hope to call on my Round eleven. I'm
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  Speaker 2: a guests on the show.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're more than a guest. You are somebody that
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  Speaker 1: we can all jump into and learn a lot from
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  Speaker 1: because you're speaking a language here that many of us
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  Speaker 1: were lost dude, And Charles, you're doing something here that
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  Speaker 1: finally has enlightened me on the whereabouts of a lot
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  Speaker 1: of things that are still pretty much kept secret these days. So, man,
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  Speaker 1: you're in the right place, dude.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, great, I've definitely reached to the right number. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And let's start it off with the title of
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  Speaker 1: the book, because I want listeners to understand and I
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  Speaker 1: am going to ask godball questions because I'm not the
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  Speaker 1: only one here. They shall not see the dawn. When
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  Speaker 1: we think of the Third Reich, we always think of,
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  Speaker 1: you know, the top dogs that they've always put in
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  Speaker 1: the headlines and stuff. But we never think about those
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  Speaker 1: that were seventeen, eighteen, nineteen year olds that happened to
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  Speaker 1: go into this. Were they committed of crimes as well.
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  Speaker 1: We don't know those stories, but you're at least giving
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  Speaker 1: us a view.
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  Speaker 2: Well. My book focuses on the search for the top
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  Speaker 2: leadership of the Nazi Party. These are not seventeen to
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  Speaker 2: eighteen year old soldiers in the Wehrmach. These are Hitler's
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  Speaker 2: top dogs. These are the people who ran the Third
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  Speaker 2: Reich in Hitler's name, and they were the most evil
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  Speaker 2: people perhaps to ever walk the face of the earth.
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  Speaker 2: These are big shot Nazis who are being targeted by
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  Speaker 2: this man hunt, and.
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  Speaker 1: It comes at such a great time because it really
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  Speaker 1: feels like here, at least the way that we're being
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  Speaker 1: trained fed by the media today is that with Communism
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  Speaker 1: and Nazism is very much alive today and it's growing
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  Speaker 1: in popularity. And I need a book like this because
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  Speaker 1: I need to know my footing so I can understand
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  Speaker 1: where we are and who we should be looking for.
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's all true. The book takes place in the
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  Speaker 2: immediate aftermath of World War two, and the war came
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  Speaker 2: to an end in May nineteen forty five. But for
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  Speaker 2: the soldiers who were agents in the US counterintelligence courts,
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  Speaker 2: the war was really just beginning. Why do I say that, Well,
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  Speaker 2: they were assigned the task of tracking down all these
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  Speaker 2: monstrous Nazis and bringing them to justice, and it was
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  Speaker 2: more to it than just vengeance or seeking justice. They
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  Speaker 2: were running what was called the Werewolves, a organization of
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  Speaker 2: fervid Nazis who wanted to continue with Hitlerism and carry
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  Speaker 2: on with the war and gage jing guerrilla warfare targeting US,
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  Speaker 2: British and also the Soviet Army that were occupying Nazi
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  Speaker 2: Germany or occupying Germany at the time. So this was
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  Speaker 2: a very important mission, not just designed to bring them
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  Speaker 2: to justice at the dock at at the Nuremberg War
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  Speaker 2: Crimes trial, but also to make sure that they would
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  Speaker 2: squelch the resistance to the occupying Western powers and also
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  Speaker 2: the Soviet Union.
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  Speaker 1: Another reason why it's so important is because people are
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  Speaker 1: still watching the book with mister Crow in it. And
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  Speaker 1: the thing about it is, though, is that we still
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  Speaker 1: sit there and we search and we seek and we
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  Speaker 1: watch videos, but we don't have words. You gave you
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  Speaker 1: opened up my soul so clearly when it came to
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  Speaker 1: everything in the afterlife, because I did not know that
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  Speaker 1: they wanted to continue it forward until I read it
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  Speaker 1: inside your paragraphs.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that. Yes, that's one of the reasons
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  Speaker 2: why this is such an important assignment. There was a
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  Speaker 2: lot at stake here, and the young Americans who were
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  Speaker 2: given this task they were called the g Men and Khakis,
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  Speaker 2: and the reason for that is that some of them
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  Speaker 2: were police detectives in civilian life. Others were scholars who
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  Speaker 2: knew the German language. So they were given assigned to
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  Speaker 2: the counter intelligence court because of their knowledge of German
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  Speaker 2: and the German of the language and also the German culture.
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  Speaker 2: And a lot of them also were refugees who had
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  Speaker 2: been kicked out of Germany in mid to late nineteen thirty.
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  Speaker 2: They had left just in time. A lot of them
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  Speaker 2: were Jewish, and when they came back to Germany, they
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  Speaker 2: were members of the conquering US army and they used
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  Speaker 2: their language skills and the knowledge of the culture of
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  Speaker 2: Germany to engage in this man the successfully tracked down
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  Speaker 2: the top Nazi leadership and.
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  Speaker 1: Speaking to a modern day generation, when we stay tracking
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  Speaker 1: down during this manhunt, there was no GPS system, there
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  Speaker 1: was no chat, GPT or any AI technology. They had
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  Speaker 1: to do it the old fashioned way and do the
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  Speaker 1: dirty work right.
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  Speaker 2: That's absolutely just a good point. They were the Nazi leadership. Uh.
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  Speaker 2: They were mostly hiding out in the castle of the
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  Speaker 2: post war weeks and months, and they were living under
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  Speaker 2: phony identities, and some had even changed their their their
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  Speaker 2: their their their, their their look. They had grown mustaches
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  Speaker 2: or shaving shaven off the mustaches. There's one notorious Nazi,
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  Speaker 2: Heimrik Kimla, who was famous for his for the glasses
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  Speaker 2: that he wore, so he removed those and put eye
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  Speaker 2: patch over his over his left eye to hide his identity.
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  Speaker 2: So this was a classic shoe leather work. A lot
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  Speaker 2: of them were turned in by Germans who either opposed
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  Speaker 2: the Nazis or wanted to put themselves in the favor
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  Speaker 2: of the new rulers of Germany, so they turned them in,
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  Speaker 2: but a lot of them also were It was it
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  Speaker 2: was it was just a matter of of of of luck,
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  Speaker 2: and and and really wherewithal in terms of the the
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  Speaker 2: knowledge of of of of of Germany.
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  Speaker 1: You know what's really shocking about this because I can
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  Speaker 1: still hear my father's voice. Try to explain this to
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  Speaker 1: me that once Hitler took his life, then it was
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  Speaker 1: all everybody lived happily ever after. But your book is
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  Speaker 1: opening up my eyes saying, no, there was a bunch
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  Speaker 1: of stuff that took place. How did the soldiers react
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  Speaker 1: to that suicide and what gave them the inspiration? Do
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  Speaker 1: you think they could keep it alive elsewhere in the world.
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  Speaker 2: Right, referring to German soldiers, Well, yes, most of them all.
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  Speaker 2: They all had to swear personal allegiance to Hitler when
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  Speaker 2: they were sworn into the Wehrmacht, and when Hitler died,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of them reached the conclusion that their allegiance
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  Speaker 2: was at an end. Also, practically, they wanted to live,
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  Speaker 2: They wanted to survive the war and go home, so
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  Speaker 2: there was a lot of incentive for them to just
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  Speaker 2: surrender and give up the ROMs. There were, of course,
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  Speaker 2: the diehard Nazis who were unrepentant and continued and wanted
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  Speaker 2: to continue the fight. But for the most parts of
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  Speaker 2: the seventeen eight year old Germans that you referred to earlier,
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  Speaker 2: they they knew it was all over, and they did
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  Speaker 2: get themselves up. Hitler's death was a turning point in
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  Speaker 2: the war in that it ended the Nazi regime and
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  Speaker 2: it brought in the US and British and Soviet armies
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  Speaker 2: to take over control of the country. There's a lot
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  Speaker 2: of speculation that he had staged his own death, in
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  Speaker 2: other words, that he was still alive and in hiding.
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  Speaker 2: So there's all sorts of buzz about, you know, whether
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  Speaker 2: they had engaged Hill, had started the greatest hooks in
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  Speaker 2: world history, that he was hiding out in the Alps
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  Speaker 2: in Austria or even at a hacienda in Argentina, and
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  Speaker 2: other crazy, crazy stories. But it was only many years
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  Speaker 2: later that was firmly established that he had indeed committed suicides,
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  Speaker 2: that was done through a forantic science.
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  Speaker 1: Please don't move, we're just getting started with Charles Lockman.
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  Speaker 1: The name of the book, They Shall Not See the Dawn.
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  Speaker 1: It's coming up next. Hey, thanks for coming back to
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  Speaker 1: my conversation with Charles Lockman. Once again, the book is
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  Speaker 1: called They Shall Not See the Dawn. One of the
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  Speaker 1: things that really grabbed me by the heart through your writing.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm so grateful that you put this book out
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  Speaker 1: because it really is filling up a lot of silences
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  Speaker 1: that I have felt over the years, from my parents,
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  Speaker 1: to my grandparents to everybody beyond. I did not know
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  Speaker 1: that Henry Kissinger even had a role in this, and
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  Speaker 1: my mouth dropped wide open when you put his name
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  Speaker 1: in those paragraphs.
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  Speaker 2: Right Well, Kissinger was one of those younger refugees who
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  Speaker 2: came to America penniless. He had obviously a brilliant mind.
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  Speaker 2: He went to City College here in New York City,
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  Speaker 2: and when the war started, he was drafted and entered
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  Speaker 2: the army, but he was quickly recognized for his brain
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  Speaker 2: power and he was assigned to the counter Intelligence Corps. Again.
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  Speaker 2: He was a German speaking native who knew the language
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  Speaker 2: and the culture, so he was extremely useful in terms
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  Speaker 2: of tracking down some of these Nazis. Another very person
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  Speaker 2: who later became famous who was in the CIC was J. D. Salinger,
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  Speaker 2: who would achieve fame as the author of The Catcher
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  Speaker 2: and the Rye. And he was also a brilliant young
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  Speaker 2: rid whose brain power was recognized and they transfred him
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  Speaker 2: as part of the CIC Division of the US Army.
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  Speaker 2: But a lot of them were also not famous at
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  Speaker 2: all and went on but brilliant, brilliant people in the
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  Speaker 2: role right. And also, just as I say police detectives
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  Speaker 2: who knew how to do basic shoe leather work, a
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  Speaker 2: lot of them were accountants who tried to track down
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  Speaker 2: the Nazi missing Nazi gold. So they came from all
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  Speaker 2: walks of life. But again the brain power involved in
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  Speaker 2: this search was considerable.
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  Speaker 1: So would you say that the secret weapon then would
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  Speaker 1: be the art of listening, because with so many people
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  Speaker 1: on this trail, something had to be the creator of
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  Speaker 1: the lead the art of listening? Was it body language?
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  Speaker 1: What was the one thing they were looking for where
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  Speaker 1: they knew that they were on the trail?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a good question. I think it
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  Speaker 2: was the willingness to go the extra mile. If they
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  Speaker 2: got a tip from a native German that so and
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  Speaker 2: so was living in a in a in the a
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  Speaker 2: on the third floor of a shoemaker's house in a
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  Speaker 2: remote village in Bavaria, but the tipster was refusing to
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  Speaker 2: give up the name. This is an actual anecdote in
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  Speaker 2: a real story in the end the book, and so
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  Speaker 2: they they went the extra mile. They could have ignored it.
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  Speaker 2: They could, well, you know, we don't even have a name.
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  Speaker 2: But no, they an American major named Henry Plitt and
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  Speaker 2: a platoon of his his men, uh took a jeep.
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  Speaker 2: They went to the shoemaker's home. They went to the
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  Speaker 2: third floor, They burst down the door and they're in bed.
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  Speaker 2: Was the notorious Nazi leader Robert Lay who was head
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  Speaker 2: of the Nazi slave labor movement, who actually ruled over
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  Speaker 2: five million Europeans who were forced laborers working in Nazi
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  Speaker 2: Germany in the nineteen forties.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, I would love to see the reaction of those
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  Speaker 1: that are currently living in Central America right now. The
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  Speaker 1: reason why I bring it up is because I've studied
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  Speaker 1: martial arts with many people from Honduras to l Salvador,
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  Speaker 1: all the way down the central coastline. The thing is
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  Speaker 1: is that when I would bring up you know, that's
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  Speaker 1: where I was taught, that were the Nazis ran to,
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  Speaker 1: you should see their eyes of interest because they know
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  Speaker 1: the stories as well. But yet they came to their soil.
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  Speaker 1: So what are the people in Central America thinking? And
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  Speaker 1: what did you find out in doing that kind of research.
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  Speaker 2: Well, my book focuses on the kind of untold story
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  Speaker 2: of the search for again the top leadership of the
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  Speaker 2: Nazi party. These were the twop saw a video or
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  Speaker 2: the film of the famous Nazi propaganda film Triumph of
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  Speaker 2: the Will, the notorious Nuremberg rally that was held in
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  Speaker 2: the late nineteen thirties, and you see Hitler on the
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  Speaker 2: giant podium with his top people carrying Himla and many others.
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  Speaker 2: That's the focus of the book. They had to be
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  Speaker 2: captured because they were running the resistance movement and they
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  Speaker 2: were the rulers of Nazi Germany. The people you're referring
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  Speaker 2: to were mainly the lower level concentration camp gods and
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  Speaker 2: commandants who fled via the ratline it was called the ratline,
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  Speaker 2: either through Germany or through Italy, and somehow made their
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  Speaker 2: way to South America, Argentina in particular, Uruguay, Brazil. We
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  Speaker 2: know all the countries and lived there in obscurity on
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  Speaker 2: the phony names for many many years, most of them now,
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  Speaker 2: all of them now dead. Some of them were captured.
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  Speaker 2: Most famously, of course, there was a search for doctor
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  Speaker 2: Joseph mengelas the Angel of Death of Auschwitz, who people
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  Speaker 2: believe was still love in South America right up into
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  Speaker 2: the nineteen eighties, when it was determined that he drowned
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  Speaker 2: by accent in Brazil in the nineteen seventies. But again,
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  Speaker 2: the book focuses on the top notz the leadership, as
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  Speaker 2: opposed to the lower level people who made their way
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  Speaker 2: who escaped after the war to via the ratline to
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  Speaker 2: South America.
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  Speaker 1: But you know what's so effective about this book is
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  Speaker 1: the fact that it is effective in the way that
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  Speaker 1: it's engaging to a reader, because of course it made
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  Speaker 1: me go research it. I'm not going to be the
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  Speaker 1: only one that's going to sit there and go dig
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  Speaker 1: in for more dirt because but you start the conversation. God,
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  Speaker 1: I love you for that, because you are doing something
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  Speaker 1: that so many people have said, well, it's over with,
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  Speaker 1: we don't have to think about it anymore. And then
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  Speaker 1: here comes Charles with this book, and I'm going, thank God,
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  Speaker 1: thank God, that you are reigniting a conversation that needs
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  Speaker 1: to be shared. And I guess my guilt trip is
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  Speaker 1: is that I like also, I know the names up
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  Speaker 1: on top, I just always say that they would not
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  Speaker 1: be there if they didn't have the support of those
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  Speaker 1: beneath them. And that's all I want, is SA, God,
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  Speaker 1: just keep giving me the stories. I can't get enough
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  Speaker 1: of them.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I really appreciate those words. I think people will
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  Speaker 2: enjoy the book not just for the information, but to
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  Speaker 2: the exciting narrative. If you like a book like The
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  Speaker 2: Day of the Jackal, which was pure fiction although it
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  Speaker 2: was based on a real incident, I think you'll enjoy
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  Speaker 2: They Shall Not See the Dawn because it's written in
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  Speaker 2: that kind of a fast paced, energetic I mean, the
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  Speaker 2: whole point of reading writing a book is not the
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  Speaker 2: bore people, is to make them into it, make them
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  Speaker 2: excited about about going training the page. So I think
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  Speaker 2: this book definitely achieves that. Well, it's an important book.
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  Speaker 1: Am I being a guilty fool by saying that I
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  Speaker 1: thought for the many, many many years that this was
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  Speaker 1: all for the love of country, but it all turned
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  Speaker 1: out to be the love for a man. Am I
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  Speaker 1: wrong in thinking like that?
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  Speaker 2: Well? I think, you know, the motivation that the Germans,
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  Speaker 2: the German people had for Hitler was, you know, was
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  Speaker 2: a striking madness that afflicted the country at the time,
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  Speaker 2: and they were obviously historical reasons for that and socioeconomic reasons,
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  Speaker 2: but of course in retrospect, he just destroy the country
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  Speaker 2: and they realized that in the end, and by nineteen
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  Speaker 2: forty five that he had laid waste to the country
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  Speaker 2: that they loved.
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  Speaker 1: And isn't it odd, Charles that my mother was that generation.
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  Speaker 1: My father fought in World War Two and they always
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  Speaker 1: reminded me it was the silent generation. Yet you're speaking today.
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  Speaker 1: That's what I face, and that's why I love your
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  Speaker 1: book is because they wouldn't talk about it. You are
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  Speaker 1: and that's why I respect everything that you're doing.
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  Speaker 2: Well. As you know, they were also called the greatest generation.
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  Speaker 2: The reason for that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Where can people go to find out more
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  Speaker 1: about what you're doing? Because they need to jump onto
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  Speaker 1: the chart else boat here and really support what you're
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  Speaker 1: growing with very easy.
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  Speaker 2: The book is available online at Amazon, Bonds and Noble,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: all the top websites where you purchase books. And all
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  Speaker 2: they had to do is put an invasion out to
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  Speaker 2: the dawn and it'll be at your home very quickly.
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  Speaker 1: I love it. Please come back to this show anytime
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  Speaker 1: in the future. The door is always going to be
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  Speaker 1: open for you.
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  Speaker 2: Sir, thank you so much for having me really appreciate it.
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  Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today?
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  Speaker 2: Okay, okay, you too,