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The Power of the Pause: Choosing Your Response Under Pressure · Imagine The Good

0:00
SPEAKER_00: You're tasting your next goal, but you can't remember the last time you felt truly present or fulfilled.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: You're surrounded by people yet somehow still feel alone.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: You've built the success you were told to go after, but you quietly wonder, is this all there really is?
0:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, then this podcast is for you.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Imagine the good.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: So here are your hosts, Jason and Robin.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to episode three of Imagine the Good.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm Robin Maher.
0:38
SPEAKER_04: And I'm Jason Dorland.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to explore the terrain of being in a responsive state versus a reactive state.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: Victor Frankel is attributed to having said a famous quote: between stimulus and response is a gap.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: In that gap lies our power and freedom to choose.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: What allows us to expand that gap so we can align with the values that we most aspire to live and show up the way we want to.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: Looking forward to this conversation with you.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: It's a rich one and an important one.
1:14
SPEAKER_04: And I think for me, it just the penny drop moment of the power of that quote.
1:22
SPEAKER_04: And it's very transformative in terms of how you apply that way of looking at life to your own life.
1:31
SPEAKER_04: And if you imagine the horrific conditions of that soul in a concentration camp and what he witnessed, and being able to come away with the insights and wisdom that he did, it's quite profound.
1:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's a wonderful book, but the lesson is far-reaching for all of us, big time.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: And the book you're referring to is Man's Search for Meaning, Victor Frankel, who is a famous psychiatrist that developed Logos theory, which is about connecting to meaning and purpose, and how that can be a powerful rudder in our lives.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: And many people are familiar with that book, but the profound inspiration of people who had their last bowl of soup, their last piece of bread, and were willing to share and choose kindness, as you said, in such difficult circumstances.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: And so it sets a bar pretty high.
2:30
SPEAKER_04: It does.
2:30
SPEAKER_04: And if you think of that moment, every ounce of your body is screaming, react, survive, eat the food, eat the bread, drink the soup.
2:40
SPEAKER_04: And yet to have a moment of pause and choose something else is, you know, that's big.
2:49
SPEAKER_04: And there's so much to learn from that.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: It speaks to a place of incredible inner freedom in extremely difficult external circumstances.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: One of my professors in graduate school didn't like that quote because she felt like it on some level was dismissive of how our physiology impacts how we show up and how difficult it is to rise above being in a threat response.
3:17
SPEAKER_01: And so when we are reactive, it's not about making ourselves bad when under threat we go first to survival and protection.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: It's just again, how do we expand the possibilities of being more responsive in our lives versus more reactive?
3:36
SPEAKER_01: And all of us can go to moments where we cringe of reactivity where we weren't at our finest.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: And then those moments when we do feel like we can show up aligned with who we want to be, just how good that feels.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: And so for myself, when I've had those moments where I've felt able to be respond, it's really fortified my commitment to the practices and the things that allow me to be aligned with who I want to be in difficult moments.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think, you know, to your professor's point, and fair enough, but I think I look at it more that being in a reactive state is a limiting state.
4:21
SPEAKER_04: If we're talking about performance, if we're talking about being at our best self, when we are in a reactive state, we are cutting off, in many ways, our ability to be at our best.
4:33
SPEAKER_04: Because that reactive state invariably leads to decisions that aren't necessarily serving us or others.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: And we all go to those places.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: It's just part of how we live.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: It's when we recognize our reactivity, are we able to have the response flexibility to work with that in skillful ways?
4:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think yesterday morning I woke up feeling like I'd hardly slept at all that night.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: And my first response, I felt like I had an inner scream of, ah, this isn't how I want to start the day.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna compromise what I want to do and whatever.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: And then I just felt a pause within myself.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: It was like, no, wait, you've had bad nights before and you've been able to do great work and show up, and you know how to take care of yourself when you're challenged.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: So just lean into that and work with this moment to moment.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: And it allowed me to just bit by bit focus and just that reorientation of remembering just what do you want to do now in this moment helped set me in a different rhythm than that initial inner scream of reactivity that I felt upon the fatigue.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: And then if I go back to another moment, I always think of a Benson moment.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Benson was um our big, sometimes crazy dog that we had when we lived at Shaunigan and setting off on a run.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if you remember that boxer that lived in the neighborhood that had a death wish, and he would just taunt and come out of range of Benson's leash.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: And one day he followed us, and Benson was losing his mind, and I was pregnant with Matea, and this dog would just sit down just out of Benson's reach.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: Benson weighed 125 pounds, and he was wanting to get this dog, so I wrapped myself in the leash to keep Benson from getting the dog as he pulled me down the hill.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: But I felt so calm and centered in this crazy circumstance.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: And I could feel the effect of continued meditation, my practices, and just being so grounded.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: And that felt, I was so grateful for that.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: So again, when we have those moments when we're challenged and we can meet that challenge with an expanded what we talk about in our work, Dan Siegel's reference of the window of tolerance in terms of the energy in our body and the state of arousal.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: When we're hyper-aroused with fear, we have anxiety, anger, agitation, and rage.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: And then if we can't protect ourselves with that response, we collapse into numbness, zoning out, a low energy state, frozen.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: But when we engage in practices that expand that window, then we can tolerate high arousal without fear that impedes our ability to be responsive and clear in how we show up.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: So that to me was a very visceral moment of feeling responsive.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: And yesterday morning feeling reactive, but then being able to shift.
7:57
SPEAKER_04: You know what?
7:58
SPEAKER_04: Can I just jump in there for you?
8:00
SPEAKER_04: What I find interesting about that story is that Benson, who was a very big dog, and he was an part akbash, which meant he had a protective, he was a herding dog or a protective herd dog.
8:12
SPEAKER_04: So you take that.
8:13
SPEAKER_04: So Benson was in a reactive state, right?
8:16
SPEAKER_04: Wanting to get that dog losing his mind, yada yada.
8:19
SPEAKER_04: So then go to what a few months later, where you're in the woods and a black bear comes out of the woods, and and Benson doesn't react.
8:30
SPEAKER_04: He responds.
8:32
SPEAKER_04: So in that moment, he knows that if I lose my mind, that I'm going to attract that bear.
8:39
SPEAKER_04: And so instead, he moves in front of you and stands there and shows the bear his broad side and doesn't look at the bear, doesn't engage with the bear, but knows enough that the right response in that moment is to just be between you and the bear and not, you know, sort of taunt or encourage the bear.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes, his language was no trouble here, bear.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: We're just minding our own business.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:09
SPEAKER_04: But I find that amazing that with regards to the boxer, it's a reactive state.
9:15
SPEAKER_04: There's no thinking going on.
9:17
SPEAKER_04: It was immediate.
9:18
SPEAKER_04: I lose my mind.
9:19
SPEAKER_04: I want to get that dog.
9:21
SPEAKER_04: In the state of, you know, perhaps life and death with a black bear in the woods, he has the presence of mind to respond in a way that not only possibly saves his life, but saves your life.
9:36
SPEAKER_04: And that's amazing, right?
9:38
SPEAKER_04: That's a beautiful story, but it's also remarkable.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: And probably an instinctual response on his part.
9:44
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
9:45
SPEAKER_04: But still impressive.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: But it was impressive, it was.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm not so sure everyone.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, oh my.
9:54
SPEAKER_04: I wasn't there, but I'm, you know, goodness, I'm glad I wasn't.
9:57
SPEAKER_04: I just I don't know that I would have had the same calmness and presence of mind as a dog.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Well, it was interesting because Benson's response was so effective because the bear looked at Benson, the bear looked at me.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: And and actually it was Katie, our other dog, that was losing her mind.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, she barked, she went into the woods after something, and then came back out with the bear and his little yappy dog on the side.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: And uh Benson's just standing there saying, No trouble here, bear.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, all good.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: So, yes, uh, the bear got the message and sauntered off, which they tend to do most of the time anyway.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: They don't want trouble.
10:41
SPEAKER_04: Right.
10:42
SPEAKER_04: But it could have ended differently.
10:44
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
10:45
SPEAKER_04: If you you know to say, but uh anyway, I find that really interesting that as human beings, we don't necessarily have the presence of mind to choose those moments.
10:54
SPEAKER_04: You know, speaking of re-interactions with dogs, we've we've had interactions with people and their dogs before where people have reacted very strongly and in a way that they've apologized for later on.
11:08
SPEAKER_04: So, what is it?
11:10
SPEAKER_04: Is it all about that window of tolerance?
11:12
SPEAKER_04: Like, was that individual just in a state where they were could very quickly fly off the deep end?
11:18
SPEAKER_04: Or you know, I'm just curious why in those moments they catch themselves?
11:24
SPEAKER_04: Like, why does the reaction have to happen and then the apology afterwards?
11:28
SPEAKER_04: And I'm sure we can, I mean, goodness, too many to name the the number of times that I have gone down that route of quick reaction, regret, apology.
11:41
SPEAKER_04: So is it all about awareness, or how do we interrupt that?
11:46
SPEAKER_01: It's a big question, and I'm sure you can follow your own threads when you think of specific moments.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: When I think of moments and interesting things, like there's a dog theme in some of my reactive moments as well.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: The time that Ike, our previous dog, when we were in the park in Vancouver, and he grabbed a kid's sandwich out of his hand, and he was a gold retriever, so the kid started howling, and I slapped Ike on the snote to get the sandwich back as if the kid's gonna eat it then, but it was so reflexive, like, oh, I see the look on the kid's face, and it was just a reflexive response.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: And so, again, very quick, and our primitive protective responses fire up really fast.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: And another scenario when Matea was a toddler and she did something that poked at Katie, and I reflexively pushed her hand away to protect Katie, but I did it in a manner that was not gentle with her, and I felt badly afterwards, but the quick reflex to protect the most vulnerable first.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: So our protective responses are very quick, and sometimes our awareness or the I would do this differently, awareness comes online after the effect.
13:05
SPEAKER_02: Right.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: The more presence that we have in a moment, the more likely we're gonna remember who we want to be and how we want to respond.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: And again, those reactive responses are part of our protection.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: So it we're not bad for being reactive at times.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: It's part of who we are and what we do.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: It's just sometimes we have to clean up if we've hurt somebody or made an error in those situations of in the moment.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: And then there's the element of what front loads our capacity to be responsive in our lives, and how do we bring those elements into how we're living so that we live aligned with who we want to be moment to moment?
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:51
SPEAKER_04: I mean, and we've all seen videos of people who are reacting, whether it's road rage, whether it's uh well, I mean, there's so many scenarios to pull on, but in those moments, are is it just about a state?
14:07
SPEAKER_04: Is it just about being exhausted or stressed, or is there something about being in a car and gridlock traffic that brings out the worst in people?
14:18
SPEAKER_04: Because it just seems that I just think if there's cameras that are running while I'm driving or while other people are driving, and they were videoing our behavior or our dialogue with ourselves, it's not always flattering.
14:35
SPEAKER_04: I mean, maybe I'm the only one, but I lose it more in a car than I tend to anywhere else.
14:41
SPEAKER_04: And what is it about that car and the situation of trying to navigate traffic that brings out an aggressive, accusatory, combative individual who, if I was walking, wouldn't respond that way.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember the commercials that were running a while back where they had people on the sidewalk bumping into each other saying, excuse me, excuse me, and being quite aggressive on the sidewalk?
15:08
SPEAKER_01: And it's quite shocking behavior, and it says you wouldn't do this in person, don't do it behind the wheel.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: So I think the same could relate to the internet in terms of things that are said in social media spaces that people would never say in person.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: True.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: So the potentially dehumanizing element of cars with road rage or social media space where we forget that we're there are other people on the receiving end of that.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: So to me, there's that element that creates distance from how do we want to treat people.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: And then for me, the other part that speaks to in a very significant way is how our relationship to time influences when we get reactive.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: And when we think of how often reactivity shows up, it's our relationship to time.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: I feel like the my least favorite version of myself shows up under rush.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: And so not having enough time, energy, or attention and something is threatened as a result of that.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: So being mindful of that and being able to more consciously clarify how we want to relate to our sense of time and what we do, and when we bump up against a time pressure and what is threatened in that circumstance, how we want to work with that in a way to expand perspective about is this really so important that I'm going to dial down how I treat other people and raise my stress level to the ceiling because we lose perspective in those moments.
16:43
SPEAKER_04: Right.
16:43
SPEAKER_04: And that's a good point.
16:44
SPEAKER_04: If I think back on some of those moments where I am reacting in a less unflattering way, like if I were to watch the video of myself driving, I'm gonna wager that the majority of those times there is a time constraint that is added to the mix that's making it come on, let's get going.
17:05
SPEAKER_04: Yada yada yada.
17:07
SPEAKER_04: What are you thinking?
17:07
SPEAKER_04: Why'd you do that?
17:08
SPEAKER_04: That those quick judgments, those quick reactions show up in a situation where it's impacting my ability to be punctual.
17:17
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I never thought of that.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: And when we can be compassionate to ourselves, when we are reactive, we're more likely to recover faster because again, we all go there.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: And when we can have compassion for ourselves, we're more likely to return to ourselves and remember who do I want to be?
17:36
SPEAKER_01: What's important to me?
17:37
SPEAKER_01: It helps expand the space of perspective.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: And when we think about responsiveness, we're aware of our bodies, we're aware of our emotions, we're aware of our values, other people's humanity, who we want to be.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: It's a big picture.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: And so with reactiveness, a threat shrinks our world into this is in my way, and a very narrow.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: And another frame to bring in to exploring this is as you know, the work of Ian McGilcrest in The Master and His Emissary and The Matter with Things talks about the difference between how we attend to the world based on uh left-right brain differences.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: Our whole brain is involved in all processes, but there's a fundamental difference in how we attend.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: The left brain evolved to uh have narrow focus, deal with manipulating the space in front of us and to gather food, whereas the right evolved to have a more wide and expansive.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: Our right uh brain-oriented state is an embodied and connected state, and that tends to be big picture.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: When we attend to the world in that way, we're more likely to be aligned with a responsive way of being in the world that's connected to our values.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: In a left uh task-driven task mode, getting her done sometimes with less sensitivity to how we impact other people with a sense of urgency.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: So it seems that and again, both both elements are important.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: It's just if we lead with the right, we're more likely to align with our deepest values and who we want to be while we get the job done.
19:26
SPEAKER_04: So the right side is more, what was the term?
19:28
SPEAKER_01: It's a more embodied and connected state.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: So there's an expansive awareness that is part of that way of attending to the world.
19:37
SPEAKER_04: Right.
19:38
SPEAKER_04: So when our right hemisphere of the brain is, you know, has the wheel, if you will, it tends to lead us to places we're okay with how we get there.
19:48
SPEAKER_04: But when our left hemisphere of the brain, left side of the brain, is holding the wheel, where it is about task mode, just ticking things off, getting things done, we're more likely to step into a reactive state.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: With the left, without sufficient input from the right, we're more likely to focus on what can I control, fix, defeat, escape.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: When the right's in charge, the right has more awareness of the left.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: And so it's more likely to be balanced in moving forward skillfully while also attending to the broader picture.
20:24
SPEAKER_04: So is there any connection in this to ego?
20:26
SPEAKER_04: And I know ego is a broad term, but when I think of times when I'm reacting in a way that I'm not okay with in reflection, a lot of the times it is about deflecting, protection, blaming, accusatory.
20:44
SPEAKER_04: It's my ego stepping up and going, whoa, you know, not my fault here.
20:49
SPEAKER_04: And so the reaction comes from that.
20:52
SPEAKER_04: When I'm in a more grounded presence state, when I am staying present on in the pressure, you know, my ego's not holding the wheel, and per se, and I tend to make better decisions, at least decisions that I regret less.
21:12
SPEAKER_04: How about that?
21:13
SPEAKER_04: And so I'm wondering: does the ego play a role in this?
21:17
SPEAKER_04: Or is it just because I'm in a pressured state or in a pressure situation, the ego shows up?
21:27
SPEAKER_04: I'm not quite understanding.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: And as we've talked before, I like to reference the difference between the small self and the connected self.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: And so if the ego is more the individual self, with in the way you're describing, without that deeper connection to the whole, then what flows from that tends to feel different than the connected self that feels a part of life, feels like we belong, and is making choices that are related.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: So you're responding as a we rather than a small me.
22:05
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: And so again, threat shrinks and narrows.
22:08
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: And so under the threat, that reactivity can disconnect us from that bigger space of belonging and relational orientation that values how we care for others as well as ourselves.
22:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, when I catch myself arguing to be right, which is a less than an admirable place, I find that again, in reflection, it's defensive mode.
22:39
SPEAKER_04: It is a reaction.
22:41
SPEAKER_04: It is making people's comments or actions mean attack.
22:47
SPEAKER_04: Like it's almost as if I'm defending, I'm under attack, and so my response is quick, it's reactive, it's impulsive, and there's no thought or pro or response in that.
22:59
SPEAKER_04: It's just a quick, immediate response.
23:00
SPEAKER_04: I'm not going to say instinctive because that's not true.
23:04
SPEAKER_04: But again, when I respond, when I have the presence of mind to make a response that I'm okay with in reflection, you know, to your point, it's starting to land a bit more that it seems to be a moment that's void of pressure.
23:19
SPEAKER_04: There isn't a time constraint, there isn't a performative moment to it, you know, what have you.
23:24
SPEAKER_04: When I think of racing, when I used to race, even the Olympic final, that was in a reactive state.
23:32
SPEAKER_04: You know, I certainly wasn't present, I wasn't grounded, I was up in my head, my ego was driving, was holding the wheel.
23:42
SPEAKER_04: It was all about the comparative or the comparison I was setting up in my mind about the others in the race, the possibility of losing to those people and what I would make that mean.
23:57
SPEAKER_04: So just by my very uh internal dialogue, just the nature of that, almost it's no wonder that I was in a reactive state.
24:09
SPEAKER_04: And in that reactive state, to your point, we shrink, we just don't connect with what with what's possible, right?
24:17
SPEAKER_04: We can perform, but we're performing at a limited level or at a limited state of what we actually could do if we were able to respond in a more right hemisphere place.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: Is that and am I making sense?
24:34
SPEAKER_01: And just listening to your description, you're talking about being focused on outcome with a threat that that outcome may not arise.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: And your point of power is in being present and attending to the process, having awareness of your inner space, how you want to show up in that space, who you want to be, and working with the feedback that you have.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: So just by virtue of your attention and energy going to the outcome rather than the process, it impeded your ability to have the awareness that would allow you to be responsive to your inner state, to be an inner ally to what's happening, how the nerves elevate in an important event, and that you want to bring your best to that.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: So again, that leads to some of the practices that allow us to be responsive.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: And when you think about moments when you've been able to catch yourself where you felt reactive and you've shifted, what has allowed you to do that?
25:40
SPEAKER_04: Well, you know, if I'm honest, I would say 99% of my races through my career as a rower were reactive because of my pre-race dialogue, right?
25:53
SPEAKER_04: So it very much was about not losing.
25:55
SPEAKER_04: We didn't race to win, we raced not to lose.
25:57
SPEAKER_04: So that invites, you know, that invites a threat moment, boom, out of the gates, right?
26:02
SPEAKER_04: That's right there.
26:03
SPEAKER_04: So, however, I can think of two races, you know, sort of that come to mind right away, and one of them in particular, which wasn't that, where I didn't feel a threat.
26:18
SPEAKER_04: And I think one of the few times that I experienced, quote unquote, a flow state, right?
26:24
SPEAKER_04: Where, as they say, the race happened through me.
26:27
SPEAKER_04: Not I wasn't the race, I wasn't trying to affect the race, the race was coming through me.
26:33
SPEAKER_04: And I can recall it vividly, and I think what set that up was the fact that it was our 1986 uh University of Victoria uh varsity 8, and we had disbanded to go off and train in our different national team crews, okay?
26:54
SPEAKER_04: And then just this was a one-off regatta where crews from all over North America, Great Britain had come for this one race.
27:01
SPEAKER_04: And so we had gone out for a paddle the day before.
27:04
SPEAKER_04: So we had one row together before, and so you know there was no expectation.
27:11
SPEAKER_04: It was just we're just gonna see how this goes.
27:15
SPEAKER_04: And so the race starts, and it was one of those races where I felt like I couldn't pull hard enough, I couldn't make myself more tired because it was an effortless, and I say that, and I'll get to that in a second, it felt effortless.
27:32
SPEAKER_04: The race just the boat took off, it was quiet, there was flow, and we led from the first stroke and we won the race quite easily.
27:42
SPEAKER_04: But there was no panic, there was no pressure, there was no threat, but one of the best races I can ever remember.
27:50
SPEAKER_04: And what's interesting about that is that, and this speaks to the culture of the sport, is that I didn't know that other guys in the crew felt the exact same way until probably 20 plus years later.
28:06
SPEAKER_04: And the reason being was because no one wanted to admit that the race felt effortless.
28:14
SPEAKER_04: Because that was taboo.
28:16
SPEAKER_04: To admit to your crewmate, oh wow, that was easy, then you were a chump for not pulling hard enough.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: So he didn't appreciate what flow could offer.
28:27
SPEAKER_04: Right.
28:27
SPEAKER_04: You like the notion that it could feel effortless and still be your best performance was so foreign to the culture because everything was about grind and tough and pulling harder than the next guy, and a very machismo experience, right?
28:45
SPEAKER_04: And so isn't it interesting that you take all of that away and the performance goes to another level because there isn't threat, because there isn't ego.
28:57
SPEAKER_04: And uh yeah, I'll never forget that.
29:00
SPEAKER_04: And again, what I find so fascinating is that when I get together with those guys, we all talk about that race as being such an outlier in terms of not just performance, but how it transpired because it wasn't a traditional race, if you will.
29:18
SPEAKER_04: There was no combat going on, right?
29:20
SPEAKER_04: We weren't trying to kill anybody as we normally would.
29:24
SPEAKER_04: It was just, let's just see what happens.
29:27
SPEAKER_04: And what happened was a beautiful experience.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: And so that was an experience of being responsive in a competitive situation which wasn't the norm for you.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: It tended to be a reactive space.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: Can you think of another example where you've been able to shift from reactivity to responsiveness, whether it's parenting and work or well, I'm gonna go to Toastmasters.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
29:55
SPEAKER_04: So uh joined Toastmasters, what, back in the 90s when I was in school, and the only reason I did was because uh part of my fourth year project where I was going to school was I had to give a presentation, I had to defend sort of a thesis, right?
30:11
SPEAKER_04: And I did not enjoy getting up in front of people and speaking.
30:15
SPEAKER_04: It was terrifying, in fact.
30:17
SPEAKER_04: So I joined, like so many people, right?
30:19
SPEAKER_04: Not alone there at all.
30:21
SPEAKER_04: So I joined a Toastmasters Club because my dad had been a Toastmasters when I was a kid, and so I thought, well, maybe there's something, and dad was a beautiful speaker, so I thought, okay, well, I'm gonna give this a shot, see if this can work.
30:34
SPEAKER_04: I remember being at the first meeting, and there was, and people who were in Toastmasters will know this term.
30:39
SPEAKER_04: There was something called table topics, where you have to, in the opening part of the meeting, somebody comes up with impromptu topics where you have to get up and speak for two minutes without any preparation.
30:54
SPEAKER_04: So I go to this meeting and I wear my heart rate monitor.
31:00
SPEAKER_04: And I'm sitting there, and just in anticipation, each time the person starts talking, the thought of being called on is throwing my heart rate up.
31:10
SPEAKER_04: So eventually I get called and I stand up and I look down at my heart rate monitor, and I'm doing about 135, 140, which is a slow run for me.
31:22
SPEAKER_04: And I just couldn't believe it.
31:24
SPEAKER_04: So not only was my, you know, was the pressure of speaking not just in my head, but my body was having a physiological response to that pressure, to that reaction.
31:38
SPEAKER_04: And my body's reaction was holy smokes, like this is a threat.
31:45
SPEAKER_04: You could embarrass yourself, you could make, you know, you could make a fool, what have you, right?
31:49
SPEAKER_04: There was no, wow, this is exciting, this is an opportunity, I'm gonna see what I can think of in the moment.
31:56
SPEAKER_04: It was all based on fear, right?
31:58
SPEAKER_04: The fear of screwing up.
32:00
SPEAKER_04: So, fast forward a couple of years, and I'm giving keynotes.
32:05
SPEAKER_04: And sure, my heart responds, but I'm not doing a slow run.
32:10
SPEAKER_04: I get my heart's responding to the excitement of going up in front of people and sharing our story or what have you.
32:16
SPEAKER_04: So I think the difference being is that you can move a circumstance from a reactive state to being a responsive state, and it takes some work.
32:29
SPEAKER_04: And I think it was about building a callus, if you will, to that experience, getting used to it, right?
32:35
SPEAKER_01: And so in that case, you're describing building competence and confidence and and mastery in terms of getting better.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: And with that, the threat got dialed down, and you were more skillful and more capable of being responsive in how you showed up in that.
32:53
SPEAKER_04: And we talked about intention being linked to this notion of affecting whether or not we enter into a situation in a reactive state or a responsive state.
33:04
SPEAKER_04: You know, if we're going to talk about a strategy, the takeaway from this conversation, I think what I've come to realize is that when my intention is premeditated, it drives a more responsive state.
33:19
SPEAKER_04: Or, yeah, a more responsive state.
33:22
SPEAKER_04: When my intention is not premeditated, I am more likely, not every time, but I'm I kind of set myself up for a reactive state.
33:32
SPEAKER_04: And I go to my coaching on that.
33:35
SPEAKER_04: When I first started coaching, you know, back to the notion we coach how we were coached.
33:40
SPEAKER_04: So I was coached under a threat state.
33:42
SPEAKER_04: Losing is wrong, it's horrible, don't you dare.
33:45
SPEAKER_04: So the fear was of losing.
33:49
SPEAKER_04: Reactive state.
33:50
SPEAKER_04: When I sort of evolved as a coach, when I started to take on some of the stuff I learned from you, I realized that winning was, you know, if the goal was to win, that could set me up to be in a reactive state.
34:07
SPEAKER_04: Because I can't control everything when it comes to winning.
34:10
SPEAKER_04: You can't control your competitors, you can't control the conditions, all these sorts of things.
34:15
SPEAKER_04: You can only control yourself.
34:17
SPEAKER_04: So when winning was the be-all and end-all, I was in a stressed state because if winning wasn't the outcome, then it was a failed, then there was failure.
34:30
SPEAKER_04: Okay?
34:31
SPEAKER_04: That's my first iteration as a coach.
34:34
SPEAKER_04: In my second iteration as a coach, when I was adapting more what I was learning from you, making it about the athlete, not focusing on winning, focusing on process, making it more holistic, the intention became about the athlete.
34:50
SPEAKER_04: So what I focused on was the transformation of the young athletes I was working with.
34:57
SPEAKER_04: So the intention was to use rowing as a way to transform the lives of these young boys.
35:06
SPEAKER_04: So it turns out that the byproduct of what it takes to transform the lives of somebody through an endeavor is exactly what it takes to produce a fast crew.
35:19
SPEAKER_04: And so by not focusing on winning, but by having a higher intention than just winning, it turned out to be a very effective strategy for winning.
35:30
SPEAKER_04: It was a paradox in many ways.
35:32
SPEAKER_04: By not trying to win, I helped set those crews up to win more often because my focus wasn't on winning, because my focus was on something bigger.
35:43
SPEAKER_04: My intention was more right hemisphere, fair.
35:48
SPEAKER_04: It was more about the well-being of the athletes and giving them an experience that didn't need winning to make it be an important experience.
35:59
SPEAKER_04: And when that penny kind of dropped for me that, wow, wait a second, this isn't just about this, you know, sort of a West Coast flaky approach to sport.
36:10
SPEAKER_04: This is actually a high performance strategy.
36:13
SPEAKER_04: When winning is the only reason, you limit your ability to actually win.
36:18
SPEAKER_04: And the notion of reactive, responsive, when as coaches, when we can stay in a responsive state, I just think we make better decisions.
36:27
SPEAKER_04: And you can expand that to any endeavor, whether it's education, business, leadership, parenting, what have you.
36:36
SPEAKER_04: When your intention is bigger than the outcome you seek, I would argue you set yourself up to achieve the outcome that maybe got you going in the first place.
36:47
SPEAKER_04: It's a lot of story, but I think it gets us to where we want to go.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: Yes, intention's powerful.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: And it's also focused on the present moment.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: So when we connect to our intentions, we connect to our heart.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: Who do I want to be in this moment and who do I want to be to other people?
37:08
SPEAKER_01: Because there's often a relational element.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: So that's an important piece of being responsive.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: And the research in terms of what supports people being able to embrace change that's aligned with who they want to be, being a psychological flexibility, being connected to the current moment and aligned with who we want to be and how we want to show up.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: And adaptive in that is a critical piece.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: So setting our intentions on our core values, and then when we go sideways, as we inevitably do, with compassion, being willing to begin again.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: Right.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because we always will go sideways as part of being human.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: And then when we're not focused on the outcome, we're letting go of expectations about how things have to be.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: And that enables us to be present and responsive in the moment.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: Another element that relates to what we talked about earlier on, in terms of time pressures, sometimes it's a conflict of values.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I've got my family to take care of over here, I've got uh work to be done, so competing priorities when we give thought and reflection to planning, how do I make the different pieces of my life work and are intentional on that piece as well, those things can be helpful in setting ourselves up to be more responsive.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: I know for myself the practices of meditation, spending time in nature, moving my body, connecting with people, because uh being with caring others also helps us show up at our best.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: So making sure that the things that allow us to be the person we want to be are built into the way we've structured our days and weeks becomes an important part of priming ourselves to be responsive versus reactive.
39:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
39:24
SPEAKER_04: And what a game changer that can be.
39:27
SPEAKER_04: And I think that's the question to leave with is the notion of you know what could be possible in our lives if we could be more present and be more responsive as opposed to reactive.
39:39
SPEAKER_04: Like what could that open up?
39:42
SPEAKER_01: What would the world look like if we created a culture where under pressure people could choose stay connected to care under difficult circumstances?
39:52
SPEAKER_01: And how do we frontload that to make it more possible?
39:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:57
SPEAKER_04: I mean, different would be the quick word, right?
40:00
SPEAKER_04: The world would look different for sure.
40:03
SPEAKER_04: But yes, so it's such a big conversation, you know, because it touches everything.
40:08
SPEAKER_04: Yes, it really does.
40:10
SPEAKER_04: Our ability to respond in a moment where we are present as opposed to distracted, what have you, and we are flying off the handle, and then coming back to it with regret, shame, what have you, right?
40:27
SPEAKER_04: Just night and day, the difference it can have.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: So, leaving our audience with the final question: what helps you become responsive and be responsive?
40:38
SPEAKER_01: And what do you want to bring into the rhythm of your days to help you be in a dance of responsiveness versus reactivity?
40:47
SPEAKER_01: Anything you want to add?
40:48
SPEAKER_01: No, I think that's perfect.
40:50
SPEAKER_04: I think that's enough for me to think about forever.
40:54
SPEAKER_04: So thanks, Robin.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
40:57
SPEAKER_04: You bet.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: So thanks for joining us today.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh if you enjoyed this podcast today, remember to like and subscribe below.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: And look forward to joining you, to having you with us next time.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, everybody.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: So that's it for today's episode of Imagine the Good.
41:18
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41:23
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41:39
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