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Unlocking Your Brain: The Role of Dopamine · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Adults who have ADHD have chaos as well because they have a difficult time if they're parents managing home life, let alone what they need to do in the office.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: They're late for their meetings, they don't follow through on their submission of reports.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: So chaos can rain when it comes to uh ADHD.
0:18
SPEAKER_06: Now you're meddling.
0:19
SPEAKER_06: I'm not comfortable with this conversation anymore.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: Is this resonating too much with you chip?
0:26
SPEAKER_01: There's no longer ADD.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: So they used to differentiate between the different kinds of attentional issues, and everything is under the umbrella of ADHD.
0:36
SPEAKER_06: That little voice in there would be whispering this.
0:39
SPEAKER_06: What makes you think you're gonna finish this one?
0:41
SPEAKER_06: And eventually it would win.
0:42
SPEAKER_06: And I just say, you know, you're right, Screw it.
0:44
SPEAKER_06: I wasn't lazy.
0:46
SPEAKER_06: I was afraid of repeating the cycle of not finishing.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: Very often people who have ADHD are are mislabeled and misunderstood.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: Lazy, they're defiant, they're difficult, they're not motivated.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: That's not necessarily the case.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Hey, it's Brittany, and welcome to another episode of Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: In this episode, Chip and Joey focus on a very specific mental health topic that affects nearly 15 million adults and 7 million children in the United States.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: ADHD.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: They're joined by Hannah Bookbinder, an expert in this long-term condition who brings a wealth of knowledge and practical insight to the conversation.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Hannah helps us better understand what ADHD is and how it shows up in everyday life, and what it looks like not just to cope, but to actually flourish.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Hannah also shares about an app she's developed that offers customizable, truly specific to you approach for people with ADHD.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: You can find the link in our show notes.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: By checking it out, you'll also be supporting this podcast.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: If you sign up for the app, be sure to use the code ChIP10.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: That's Chip10.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining us.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: And now here is Chip, Hannah, and Joey.
1:55
SPEAKER_07: Now, where are you tuning in from, Hannah?
1:57
SPEAKER_01: I am in suburban Philadelphia.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: What about you guys?
2:00
SPEAKER_06: Oh, I gotcha.
2:01
SPEAKER_06: Charleston, South Carolina, basically.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: I love Charleston.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: It's one of my favorites.
2:05
SPEAKER_06: Oh, it's awesome.
2:06
SPEAKER_06: I feel I feel honored to live here.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: Are you born and raised?
2:10
SPEAKER_06: Buffalo, New York.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Ah, so what brought you south?
2:14
SPEAKER_06: Uh, college.
2:15
SPEAKER_06: I went to the Citadel.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
2:18
SPEAKER_06: And uh met my wife and let's see, Buffalo or South Carolina.
2:23
SPEAKER_06: Hmm.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:25
SPEAKER_06: I'm not I'm not too smart, but that was a pretty easy decision.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: That sounds like it.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: And you have less snow, so that's even better.
2:32
SPEAKER_07: Oh my gosh, man.
2:34
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
2:35
SPEAKER_07: All right.
2:35
SPEAKER_07: Well, let's rock and roll.
2:37
SPEAKER_07: We are here with Hannah Bookbinder.
2:40
SPEAKER_07: And Hannah is introducing innovative new tools to vastly improve the quality of life for millions of people with ADHD.
2:51
SPEAKER_07: We're here with Chip Judd, the main guy of this podcast.
2:55
SPEAKER_07: I just get to introduce people and facilitate the conversation.
2:59
SPEAKER_07: But let me tell you a little bit about Hannah.
3:01
SPEAKER_07: She is an ADHD executive functioning coach and the author of Unlock Your Inner Superhero.
3:09
SPEAKER_07: And we're going to be getting into this too.
3:10
SPEAKER_07: The creator of My Toad app, a tool designed to help people with ADHD manage time, organization, accountability, and distractability.
3:18
SPEAKER_07: She's breaking the stigma and shifting people to empowerment.
3:22
SPEAKER_07: ADHD does not, according to Hannah, does not mean that you're broken.
3:27
SPEAKER_07: She wants to help people build self-confidence and resilience.
3:32
SPEAKER_07: Now, how long has this been your main thing, Hannah?
3:34
SPEAKER_07: And Chip, I want to ask you too, after she answers that, how knowledgeable do you feel you are about ADHD?
3:42
SPEAKER_07: You may I can tell you that real quick.
3:46
SPEAKER_06: Other than probably personal experience.
3:48
SPEAKER_07: Gotcha.
3:49
SPEAKER_07: Gotcha.
3:50
SPEAKER_07: So, Hannah, how long has this been your main thing?
3:52
SPEAKER_01: I've been doing this for almost 30 years.
3:54
SPEAKER_07: Dang.
3:55
SPEAKER_07: We're not going to smell it as arrogance.
3:57
SPEAKER_07: Just say it how it is.
3:58
SPEAKER_07: You would say you're an expert.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: I would say that, yes.
4:01
SPEAKER_07: You're an expert.
4:02
SPEAKER_07: All right.
4:02
SPEAKER_07: So, Chip, with all of your years of counseling and research and studying, I mean, you're a very smart guy when it comes to the mental health field.
4:11
SPEAKER_07: Why not ADHD?
4:12
SPEAKER_07: It's just not something that you've really dug into much.
4:15
SPEAKER_07: Or maybe you have ADHD and you just couldn't do it.
4:18
SPEAKER_07: That's right.
4:19
SPEAKER_06: Every time I went there, I got scared.
4:22
SPEAKER_06: No, uh, just haven't dealt with a lot of it, other than truthfully, probably my own son and maybe a touch myself.
4:29
SPEAKER_06: I don't know.
4:30
SPEAKER_06: I'm looking forward to as we get through the show today.
4:32
SPEAKER_06: I don't know.
4:32
SPEAKER_06: It's a good question, Joey.
4:34
SPEAKER_06: I tend to read in the areas of uh marriage and family stuff, fancy cognitive therapy, you know, that kind of stuff.
4:41
SPEAKER_06: It just kind of fit my style and the people I was dealing with.
4:45
SPEAKER_06: Although I would be quite confident that particularly some of the leaders that I deal with, uh, I'm sure there's some ADD ADHD issues uh bouncing around.
4:54
SPEAKER_06: And I'm not, I don't deal a lot with, you know, like from a parenting perspective and kids and all, uh, then I'd I'd probably have had to have learned more.
5:03
SPEAKER_06: Really more just time and energy focus more than anything.
5:07
SPEAKER_06: Gotcha.
5:08
SPEAKER_07: Well, Hannah, I what I thought that we would do is I did uh I did some substantial research on ADHD.
5:15
SPEAKER_07: And since you're the expert, I will I will let you say yay or nay to these questions.
5:21
SPEAKER_07: I think they're they're interesting takes, things that I didn't know before looking into ADHD to prepare for this conversation.
5:29
SPEAKER_07: And so you tell me what you think about these uh five quick questions that my assumption is that it's valid research and it's a yes, but I'm not always great with Google, so you'll be you'll be the judge.
5:44
SPEAKER_07: Um, but is it true ADHD meds don't fix attention, they give your brain enough dopamine to choose the task you want to focus on.
5:54
SPEAKER_07: Would you say that's accurate?
5:55
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I would say that you know that one of the big issues that comes with ADHD is that the neurodivergent mind doesn't produce and fire off enough dopamine.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: So therefore, you're gonna have difficulties with things like attention and organization, not just your, you know, personal belongings, but also being able to organize your thoughts into some sort of cohesive presentation.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: And what the medication does is that it increases the access to the dopamine and then enables you to do some of these things that require executive functioning skills.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: I will caution your listeners, there is no such thing as a magic pill.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm not, you're not gonna start taking medication and then all of a sudden everything comes more easily to you.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: The you still have to modify your behaviors and you still have to be very self-aware as far as what trips you up, what are you good at, where do you need to have support?
7:04
SPEAKER_06: First of all, Hannah, I've never I've never even heard of the dopamine connection.
7:08
SPEAKER_06: That's a whole new thought for me.
7:09
SPEAKER_06: It's a reward mechanism.
7:11
SPEAKER_06: I'm trying to figure it out.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that we need to be able to follow through on things that we plan to do, for example.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: And if you don't have, if your brain doesn't have access to it, if it's not firing, then all these other executive functioning skills become more difficult to execute.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: It's less about the satisfaction, but it's more about the ability to be able to do these things.
7:42
SPEAKER_03: Right.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: It's it's the key that unlocks your brain to being able to do these things.
7:48
SPEAKER_07: Interesting stuff.
7:49
SPEAKER_07: Chip is well aware of my background and not so not as much nowadays, but I have a hereditary form of depression and anxiety struggles.
8:03
SPEAKER_07: And over the years, with medication that I'm still on, but with a lot of therapy through the years, I feel like the therapy has been instrumental in for sure having tools to navigate through depression and anxiety, but I would say even more so getting further and further away from those struggles just in general.
8:27
SPEAKER_07: It doesn't sound like that's an AD, that's not the same way that ADHD works.
8:32
SPEAKER_07: Like, can you get really good therapy and for someone who's born with ADHD, say, I don't really have ADHD anymore, or is it what we're gonna be getting into today?
8:42
SPEAKER_07: You're gonna have this challenge, you need the tools.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: You will have ADHD, you know, once you have it, you have it.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: But as you, you know, if medication is necessary, because it's not always necessary for everybody, but as you master some of these skills and tools and tricks, then you can reduce the impact that ADHD has on your life, which is why it's so important to get diagnosed earlier on, because I'm meeting so many adults now who are being diagnosed as adults.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: We didn't have necessarily the testing, or some people didn't have the resources to be able to access that type of assistance to know that they had ADHD.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: So, in many ways, as adults, they have tried to compensate in their own way.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, some of them, interestingly, have been spot on with how they've gone about doing that.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: But having that early diagnosis really helps to kind of pave the way to be able to, first of all, understand your profile and second of all identify the areas where you need support because you know, some people who have ADHD don't need help in every single arena.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, so having that diagnosis helps you to get the support that you need so that by the time you progress from childhood to adolescence to young adult to full-fledged adult, you now have a tool chest that's full of things that work for you so that you can kind of compensate for where ADHD is present in your life.
10:16
SPEAKER_07: So if you're ever diagnosed with ADHD, you always had it.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: You always have it.
10:21
SPEAKER_07: You always had it, though.
10:22
SPEAKER_07: A H A D.
10:24
SPEAKER_07: Did you always have it?
10:25
SPEAKER_07: You just didn't know it.
10:26
SPEAKER_07: Like if a if an adult is diagnosed, did they have it as a child, they just didn't know?
10:30
SPEAKER_01: It's very likely that they had it.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, most of the time it's it's starting as uh children.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: And what happens sometimes is that as the auntie is raised in school, for example, at some point that's when the kids aren't able to compensate for anymore and they kind of hit the wall.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: So thinking about the transition maybe from fourth grade to fifth grade, or fifth grade to middle school, or your junior year in high school, or then if you make it this far when you graduate from high school and you're going into college, you are, you know, continuously being challenged to rise to the next level.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: And at some point, that becomes difficult to do because you just run out of those natural compensatory skill sets that you've been using to get to that point.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
11:22
SPEAKER_07: All right, four more.
11:24
SPEAKER_07: Is it true that ADHD brains have motivation disorder, not a focus disorder, because they rely more on interest, urgency, or novelty to activate?
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Everybody's different.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, it could be a comp it could be a combination.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: But yes, absolutely.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you think about it, going back to the conversation about dopamine, if if I don't have access to dopamine, then these things that are less interesting to me or less like intriguing are gonna be tasks or whatever you want to call it that I'm not motivated to fulfill.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: So if you can do things like gamifying, are you familiar with that term?
12:06
SPEAKER_06: I'm not.
12:06
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: But Chip, you are.
12:08
SPEAKER_06: You know, it's interesting you say that when you were talking earlier about how you you develop strategies.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:14
SPEAKER_06: I've told my wife for 20 years, I make a game out of everything.
12:19
SPEAKER_06: And I never thought about it in the context that you're saying it.
12:23
SPEAKER_06: That's fascinating.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:25
SPEAKER_06: Wow.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: So gamification or gamifying something is exactly what Chip is talking about.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: You make what you need to do into a game.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, one of the things that I use with my clients is to play beat the clock.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Let's say that you have three buckets of laundry that you need to do because you just came back from vacation and you're really dreading it.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, who really likes to fold laundry?
12:50
SPEAKER_01: So you can set a timer and say, you know, for it's gonna be for 15 minutes.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: What can you accomplish in that 15-minute period?
13:00
SPEAKER_01: Can you beat the clock?
13:02
SPEAKER_01: So now you've got the adrenaline pumping, you've got the dopamine flowing, and this seems like a quasi-interesting challenge that you're up to, you know, meeting.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: You could take like a bowl and fold up a whole bunch of daily tasks that you need to do and just stick your hand in there and pick one that you need to do, and and that's the task of of the moment that you do.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, those are just two examples of gamification.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: It's part of why I put those features.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: There's three modes of um gamification in my app because I wanted to incentivize people to continue to develop these skills by using the app.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: So you have a complete the circle um gamification, which if you pick a tool from each of these uh suites of tools in the app, then you get to fill your circle.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: And by the end, you get confetti that that comes down from the screen.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, you also get streaks and badges.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: So if you're using the app, you know, for every day that you use the app, you get a streak.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: And uh then there's also badges that you can earn by meeting certain criteria.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: So I was very conscientious about that when I was designing it because I know the gamification can be intriguing, it can be motivating, and therefore people will follow through on what it is that they need to do.
14:23
SPEAKER_07: That's cool.
14:24
SPEAKER_07: And we'll get into it even more.
14:26
SPEAKER_07: But but for folks listening now, if you're playing around on your phone and you're interested in this app, it's the My Toad app.
14:32
SPEAKER_07: How long has it been out?
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we just released it in July.
14:36
SPEAKER_07: Gotcha.
14:37
SPEAKER_07: All right.
14:38
SPEAKER_07: Is it true that ADHD makes people gravitate toward crisis, chaos, or last-minute pressure because of the adrenaline their need their brain needs to function?
14:50
SPEAKER_07: Is that typical of people with ADHD?
14:52
SPEAKER_01: Chaos is not unusual, you know, unfortunately, because and I talk to parents all the time of kids who have ADHD.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: It's a mad dash to get out the door in the morning to, you know, to get the bus.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: There's stuff all over the place.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: I have clients where you can literally follow the trail of things throughout the house where they've been because they just like drop everything where they are and go.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: There, there are battles over homework.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh, people, adults who have ADHD have chaos as well because they have a difficult time if they're parents managing home life, let alone what they need to do in the office.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: They're late for their meetings, they don't follow through on their submission of reports.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, they're letting down their coworkers because they didn't do what they needed to do for a project or a presentation.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: So chaos can rain when it comes to uh ADHD.
15:47
SPEAKER_06: Now you're now you're meddling.
15:52
SPEAKER_06: So is it is it I'm not I'm not I'm not comfortable with this conversation anymore.
16:02
SPEAKER_07: So is it more time, is it more time blindness and lack of working memory bandwidth than it is self-control?
16:12
SPEAKER_07: Because I think the self-control component is more of a negative connotation.
16:17
SPEAKER_07: And in my opinion, as someone who doesn't have ADHD, you think of someone who lacks self-control.
16:24
SPEAKER_07: That doesn't sound too flattering.
16:26
SPEAKER_07: But if if someone is suffering with like time blindness, lack of working memory bandwidth, that sounds a little bit better.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: Again, it depends on the individual.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, it there are three kinds of ADHD.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: There's the hyperactive, there's the inattentive, and then there's the combination.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: So if you are hyperactive, then you tend to be more impulsive with what it is that you're going to do.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: You can't sit still.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: You may be calling out in a meeting or you might be calling out in a classroom, depending on what role you're playing.
16:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, and as far as the struggle with time, that's something that is not unusual for people across the board.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: Uh, if you have the inattentive type of ADHD, then it's very difficult for you as a child to sit there and pay attention to what the teacher is saying.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: You're frequently missing, you know, the fine points of when is this due?
17:23
SPEAKER_01: Or what are you supposed to do next in the classroom?
17:26
SPEAKER_01: And the same thing is true for adults.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: You know, you were you were talking about chip your work with um spouses and and um marriage, ADHD can wreak havoc on on a marriage because you know, your spouse says to you, honey, on your way home from work, don't forget to pick up the eggs and the chicken because I'm, you know, your your parents are coming over for dinner, or my boss is coming over for dinner.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: And if the chicken is the main draw to the dinner table and your spouse forgets to bring it home, that's a little bit of a problem.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't look good on, you know, it doesn't uh look good for your spouse who's having the boss coming over.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: So, and then when you have the combination type of inattentive as well as hyperactive, that's a whole other level of ADHD as well, because now you're experiencing it from both ends.
18:16
SPEAKER_06: A thought I had as you were talking, Hannah, is and again, I'm really thinking of myself.
18:21
SPEAKER_06: Like I'd use this thought.
18:22
SPEAKER_06: It's like I need a higher threshold to engage an activity.
18:28
SPEAKER_06: Like I don't like small talk.
18:30
SPEAKER_06: Small talk just bores the crap out of me.
18:32
SPEAKER_06: I don't want to, you know, forgive me, guys.
18:34
SPEAKER_06: I don't want to hear about the deer you shot this weekend.
18:36
SPEAKER_06: I I don't care.
18:38
SPEAKER_06: I now you throw me in where you know somebody's in some kind of crisis and it's and I come alive.
18:45
SPEAKER_06: Uh even talking about concepts and ideas that matter, I I come alive.
18:50
SPEAKER_06: But if you're just talking about, you know, small talk, I'm just like, yeah, whatever.
18:54
SPEAKER_06: I'll go over here and read a book.
18:56
SPEAKER_03: Right.
18:56
SPEAKER_07: Do you have to pretend with choline and I'm serious?
18:58
SPEAKER_07: Like, uh of course I all the time.
19:00
SPEAKER_06: No, I'm kidding.
19:01
SPEAKER_07: I mean, of course a wife wants me small talk.
19:04
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I mean, truthfully, I do sometimes.
19:06
SPEAKER_06: I I because my mind's over here, like, you know, thinking about this or thinking about the book that I'm working on or whatever.
19:13
SPEAKER_06: And yeah, it's it's it's kind of like I'm up here, you know, err, and I gotta come down here and and you know, slowly listen and like like you said, kind of act interested.
19:25
SPEAKER_06: And uh I'll make sure she doesn't listen to this episode.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say you might be digging yourself into a hole here.
19:31
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, really.
19:32
SPEAKER_06: Won't be the first time.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: You you mentioned, you know, putting on an act chip, and that's something that's frequently done when people have ADHD.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: They they wear a mask because there's a lot of shame and frustration that comes with having ADHD.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: And so people will mask.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: They don't they don't ask for the help that they need because they're embarrassed or ashamed.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, they they feel you know frustrated by this disconnect because so many people who have ADHD are extremely bright and intelligent, yet they can't deliver on what it is that they need to do.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: And that discrepancy is humiliating for them.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: Putting on an act, putting on a mask is something that's also very common.
20:13
SPEAKER_06: Joey, did you hear that about being extremely bright and competent?
20:18
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, but I didn't believe it.
20:22
SPEAKER_07: All right, my last quick question is Is it true that people with ADHD sometimes freeze rather than decide because decision making costs their brain too much energy?
20:35
SPEAKER_01: Making decisions can be difficult.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: We kind of joke about this in the office sometimes with my clients.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, they, you know, they will make up the jokes too.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: But you know, you could spend literally 45 minutes debating between life cereal and frosted flakes for dinner.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, for uh for breakfast, because making that decision is just seems so huge.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then imagine if you complicate things and somebody says, well, in addition to those two cereals, you could also have French toast or waffles or bacon and eggs.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, decision making can be very difficult and overwhelming.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's why so many people, or a lot of people, as a as a coping mechanism, they develop structures and routines so that they know, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna whittle down the number of choices and I'm gonna I'm gonna limit myself to oatmeal or rice krispies, and we're just gonna keep it really simple.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: Um because if you give them too many options, then everything is whirling and it's it's too overwhelming to to make it.
21:42
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, like Steve Jobs with his jeans and black t-shirt.
21:46
SPEAKER_06: That's all they ever wore.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
21:48
SPEAKER_06: And he and he literally explained it that way that it was one last choice he had to one last decision.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: I met with a podcaster, um, I was just over in London and He was talking about how we were we were making a joke because um I had come over there to record two recordings and we were talking about change of wardrobe.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: And he looks at me and he says, Well, this is typically what I wear all the time.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: So you can feel free to change.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: But to your point, Chip, he does that because it is literally one less decision that he has to make in the course of his day.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Because every day is just a series of decisions that people have to make, you know, neurodivergent or neurotypical.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: We just have choices that we have to make.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, and this is one less one that he has to do.
22:33
SPEAKER_06: Maybe this is a dumb question, but I've always wondered exactly where the line is.
22:37
SPEAKER_06: What's the difference or the line you cross between ADD and ADHD?
22:43
SPEAKER_01: There's no longer ADD.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Everything has been put under the umbrella of ADHD.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: So they used to differentiate between the two the different kinds of ADHD of attentional issues, and everything is under the umbrella of ADHD.
22:59
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, the difference seemed kind of weird to me.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
23:02
SPEAKER_06: It always felt like you guys are splitting hairs here, man.
23:05
SPEAKER_06: I don't know what your deal is.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wait, wait till you know a couple of you know years from now, and maybe we'll go back to ADD.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: We could we could come up with a whole other diagnosis.
23:15
SPEAKER_07: So the acronym is attention deficit hyperactive hyperactive disorder.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: Hyperactivity.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:22
SPEAKER_07: So when I think of hyperactivity, I uh it takes me back to the school days where some kids were on Ritalin and they, you know, they were just uh a ball of energy and they couldn't control it.
23:35
SPEAKER_07: I know a lot of people who said that they chip, for instance, if you're if you have ADHD, I don't see chip as hyperactive.
23:44
SPEAKER_07: Like there's a lot of people.
23:45
SPEAKER_07: So do some people have ADHD without the hyperactivity?
23:48
SPEAKER_07: Or is hyper is hyperactivity a characteristic of the brain functioning?
23:53
SPEAKER_07: Like it's a hyper brain?
23:54
SPEAKER_07: Like where does hyperactivity fit into this?
23:57
SPEAKER_01: So hyperactivity, and remember we were talking about how there's three different kinds of the ADHD.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: So uh the hyperactivity is just, you know, the inability to sit still, going back to the classroom.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: You're you see the kid literally bouncing the knee all the time or fidgeting, can't stay in the seat.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, when you have that, it's I think that it's really important for schools, workplaces to make accommodation for the individuals who have that difficulty.
25:08
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
25:08
SPEAKER_07: The vast majority of people with ADHD is genetic.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: There is a genetic component to it, yes.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: There's also environmental factors like you know, there are certain pollutants that can contribute to it.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, things like premature birth can also contribute to it.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: One thing that we know for sure does not contribute to it is bad parenting because that's been flow uh floated out there.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, those are some things that can contribute to the diagnosis.
25:36
SPEAKER_07: Gotcha.
25:36
SPEAKER_07: Gotcha.
25:37
SPEAKER_07: How about how it manifests differently per gender?
25:42
SPEAKER_07: Is there anything to how women experience it versus men?
25:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so usually women experience it as the inattentive type, whereas boys and men usually tend to experience it with the hyperactivity.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: But that's not to say that boys and men can't just be inattentive.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: I have plenty of clients who are male and are simply inattentive.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: And I've had a sprinkle of female clients who have been, you know, bounce literally bouncing off the walls.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, for girls and women, there's also the hormonal uh element to it as well.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: And the estrogen can influence the uh production and the flow of dopamine.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: So if you think about it, once girls hit puberty, now you have the menstrual cycle that you have to be mindful of.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: And on a good day, you know, in a good month, you can have fluctuations of your mood and your your attention outside of the um confines of ADHD.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: But now if you throw in ADHD on top of that, it can become quite a carnival ride for all parties concerned.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and that can lead to, if you want to talk about masking, there are a lot of women and girls who mask because there's the societal expectation that we're going to be, you know, demure and quiet and reserved.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: And when you have a young lady or a woman who is not so, then they're shamed frequently because they're kind of out of their uh out of their element and not like sticking to the script.
27:24
SPEAKER_07: All right.
27:25
SPEAKER_07: Well, before we get into your professional background and your work, I want to dip our toes in kind of the social aspects and connectivity for people with ADHD is interrupting a thing.
27:41
SPEAKER_07: And I and I was reading that oftentimes it's a thing because the person with ADHD supposes that they know what the person's gonna say anyway, and it's almost like an impatience deal.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: That can be part of it, but it can also be that they are self-aware enough to know that if I don't get this thought out right now, I'm going to lose it.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: So I gotta get it out there.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: Like if you think about if you're in a um work meeting or if you're in a classroom setting and the teacher asks a question, and particularly for kids who have been repeatedly um punished or embarrassed in class, this is one of their shining moments to be able to show how intelligent they are.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: So they got to get the answer out now.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, they're gonna redeem themselves with this one answer.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, or simply because they have such a busy mind, they're not gonna be able to retain it.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: So, one of the things that I suggest in those situations is to have like a little pad of paper that they can jot down that thought and so that they won't lose it, so that when the time is more appropriate, like maybe the teacher is just straight lecturing or the professor is lecturing, or the boss doesn't want to hear from anybody because he or she needs to get all this important information out.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: Then when there's an opportunity for questions to be asked or comments to be made, they can look at that little cheat sheet that they've made and then reference the the thought.
29:03
SPEAKER_07: Nice.
29:04
SPEAKER_07: I was pretty surprised about this.
29:05
SPEAKER_07: And I I would imagine we're getting into territory where this this you know, you we can't talk about ADHD people with ADHD, it's just everybody's the same, and maybe some struggle with some things and some don't.
29:18
SPEAKER_07: But is it ever a thing for there to be an obsession with something or people for a short span of time but it's short short-lived because of the uh I don't know if it's a spike of of dopamine, but basically uh I was reading how some people with ADHD can invest tons of time and energy into a new friendship and then the excitement is gone, or something as basic as like super excited to call someone and you've got the energy to do it, but then they don't answer, and then you ignore all of their callbacks because the dopamine is gone.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: I think that there's an element of that across the board, not just in social um relationships, because one of the gifts and challenges that come with uh ADHD is this ability to hyperfocus.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: So if you think about it and you have this relationship with somebody, and um you know, maybe it's a partner, maybe it's a a friend that you just met or a teammate, somebody or coworker, and just the process of getting to know somebody is in and of itself sometimes very exciting and intriguing.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then when the new and shiny wears off, yes, you can tire of it.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, you can become so wedded to this relationship that you can almost, I wouldn't say obsessive, but hyper-focus on this relationship.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: You want to be there all the time, 24-7, engaged in that process.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, the other thing is, you know, to your point, Joey, about the ignoring, it's not, I think that it's very rare that it's a deliberate ignoring.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: It's rather there are so many other things that are going on that they kind of lose sight of these things.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's almost like if you were were making macaroni and cheese on your stovetop and you're boiling the water, right?
31:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, if something more intriguing and fascinating comes along, or just something that distracts you, you now have gas pouring into your air because the pot has overflowed with the water and you lost sight of the fact that you were making the macaroni and cheese until you realize that you smell a strong odor of gas, which then pulls you back to hopefully to the stovetop where you were making dinner.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: So I don't really think that it's an intentional kind of ignoring thing.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: Of course, there are specific situations in which, yes, that is the case, but I I think that everybody experiences ADHD in their own way, and these are just some of the trends that people can see in their behavior.
32:15
SPEAKER_07: So Chip, a lot of his work is trying to bridge the gap between church and the mental health community, and honestly helping church people and Christians understand the importance and weightiness of good psychology and all that.
32:37
SPEAKER_07: But he used to be a pastor, and Chit, I was editing a conversation you had recently, and this just occurred to me.
32:44
SPEAKER_07: You told this guy that you think that you were a sucky pastor.
32:47
SPEAKER_07: When you were pastoring a church, you literally said, I think I was kind of a sucky pastor.
32:52
SPEAKER_07: Do you was it because of maybe some struggles with ADHD and not being attentive to people or calling them back?
32:59
SPEAKER_07: Like what do you know what you meant by that?
33:01
SPEAKER_07: I'm curious if it ties into what you think any of these uh issues could have been for you.
33:06
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, you're not far from from the reality, Joey.
33:09
SPEAKER_06: I think I was always drawn to uh edgier subjects, um, more future leaning subjects.
33:17
SPEAKER_06: You know, the day-to-day stuff was just uh I mean, it wasn't that I didn't care about people.
33:24
SPEAKER_06: Oh gosh.
33:25
SPEAKER_06: Most people's lives are, as Hannah was saying, fairly predictable and to a point that I think is unhealthy.
33:33
SPEAKER_06: They basically do the same thing week after week after week, month after month, and they don't they don't go on trips, they don't they don't even go to different restaurants for crying out loud.
33:42
SPEAKER_06: So yeah, I I wanted to deal with like books and ideas and and concepts that can move this thing forward, and you know, we're not getting our job done, and you're not changing.
33:54
SPEAKER_06: I mean, Hannah, I'm I was so horrible as a pastor.
33:57
SPEAKER_06: I would literally I had said this from the pulpit speaking that some of you have sat under my ministry for 10, 15 years, and the only thing that's changed is your weight and hair color.
34:08
SPEAKER_06: I mean, that's how dumb I was, and not a very, not a very friendly thing to say, but that's kind of tells you a lot about me.
34:15
SPEAKER_06: I just was like, you get one life.
34:18
SPEAKER_06: You seem content to just kind of coast.
34:21
SPEAKER_06: I I couldn't live that way.
34:23
SPEAKER_06: So I wasn't, you know, if you think about sheep and shepherd, uh, sheep want safety, they want security.
34:29
SPEAKER_06: I was not that kind of guy.
34:31
SPEAKER_06: I wanted and still do.
34:33
SPEAKER_06: I mean, I'm 71 and I still want to rock the boat, man.
34:37
SPEAKER_06: Let's move this thing down the field.
34:38
SPEAKER_06: Oh, it's so comfortable.
34:40
SPEAKER_06: Tough.
34:41
SPEAKER_06: Let's go.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: But maybe with those sermons, Chip, you inspired some of your flock, so to speak, to kind of sort of step outside of their comfort zone.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: You never know.
34:51
SPEAKER_06: I I think so.
34:52
SPEAKER_06: I think some.
34:53
SPEAKER_06: I think the numbers, uh people, you know, young younger guys will ask me, what's the hardest thing about longevity in ministry?
35:00
SPEAKER_06: And I told them the the the poor return on your investment.
35:04
SPEAKER_06: What the the hardest thing for me about pastoring in I pastored a church for 24 years, about half of that I started to travel and do this kind of consulting and whatever.
35:14
SPEAKER_06: You know, they would ask, and I told them, I said that the hardest thing for me was how so many people sat in the same room, hearing the same messages, same opportunities, same challenges, and nothing changed.
35:26
SPEAKER_06: You know, I love now that I I I I get in different situations and I get to I get to you know get dropped into different messes, and you know, you get to kind of like sort it out.
35:37
SPEAKER_06: And there's pastors are like, you just love the drama, don't you?
35:40
SPEAKER_06: And I kind of do.
35:41
SPEAKER_06: You know, it's kind of weird, but I kind of do.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like a puzzle, you know.
35:45
SPEAKER_06: Absolutely that all the time.
35:48
SPEAKER_01: It challenges you to problem solve.
35:50
SPEAKER_07: Are you familiar are you familiar with the Enneagram numbers?
35:53
SPEAKER_01: Mm-mm.
35:54
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
35:54
SPEAKER_07: All right.
35:55
SPEAKER_07: Well, I was just gonna call Chip an eight.
35:58
SPEAKER_07: He also likes to pick fights and make people angry sometimes.
36:02
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
36:03
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, man.
36:04
SPEAKER_07: All right.
36:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
36:08
SPEAKER_07: That's right.
36:09
SPEAKER_07: So are you doing a lot?
36:11
SPEAKER_07: So you're uh you're a coach.
36:12
SPEAKER_07: Do you do a lot of sitting with people one-on-one, helping them through?
36:17
SPEAKER_07: Hey, and and would you say the best way of posturing is you are helping people with ADHD to function well and to exceed in life?
36:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, at first it starts with establishing a rapport with them because you're nowhere without that.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's true for most professions.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: But then it shifts to helping them to understand their profile and why some things come more easily to them than others.
36:45
SPEAKER_01: And then it's helping them to identify their goals and what they want to accomplish in the relationship with me, and identifying what helps them or would help them, and what will stand in their way and how to address or avoid those obstacles because there are some things that are avoidable.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: And then we, you know, we partner together.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: It's a partnership, and it's you guys are old enough to appreciate the analogy of Rocky Balboa, and I'm like Burgess Meredith.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm in the corner and I am standing there.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: Or for your listeners who don't understand who these people are, it's like having Rocky Balboa who becomes Creed's uh you know, coach.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm standing there in the corner, I'm supporting you, I'm not taking away car keys, I'm not humiliating you.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: I get it and I understand, and I'm here to support you.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: And the and the thing that I ask of my clients is that I need them to be completely transparent with me because my best help is best based on the best information that they give to me.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: So if you're gonna come in here and tell me everything is hunky-dory and it's going great, but then I'm hearing from teachers that you're failing two out of your five classes, or I get a report from the spouse that so-and-so just got docked salary because they're screwing up in the office or got fired.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: That's not you know what you're presenting to me.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: So it sort of cuts me off at the needs to be able to help you.
38:13
SPEAKER_06: So, from what you just said, you do children and adults.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: I do, I do the whole lifespan.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: Good deal.
38:18
SPEAKER_07: I gotta tell y'all two things because I'm a Rocky fanatic.
38:22
SPEAKER_07: It's probably my favorite, it's probably my favorite series, and because of that series, Sylvester Stallone may be my favorite actor.
38:29
SPEAKER_07: But listen to this, it you are you are spot on, Hannah, as far as kids.
38:36
SPEAKER_07: There's there's kids that know the Creed movies without the Rocky contacts.
38:42
SPEAKER_07: I'm like, why would you even watch the Creed movies not having the Rocky contacts?
38:47
SPEAKER_07: And then this, both of you guys will will love this.
38:50
SPEAKER_07: So there's a volunteer who's helping with production at Seaco's, the church Chip and I go to, and he was a chef in LA, and he would fix Burgess Meredith his favorite dish that the restaurant discontinued years ago, but they would make it every time he would come in there.
39:09
SPEAKER_07: Because of that, he would give this guy and his friends beach access through his house.
39:15
SPEAKER_07: So they they got to go to the beach through Burgess Meredith's uh house.
39:20
SPEAKER_07: I was like, you have gotta be kidding me.
39:22
SPEAKER_06: All right, tell us about unlock your Hannah.
39:25
SPEAKER_06: Was that a little example of ADD right there?
39:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was no, it actually was a lucky fan.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: It was it was very related to my my analogy, so yeah.
39:36
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
39:37
SPEAKER_06: Oh, I I'm with you.
39:38
SPEAKER_06: That's some of the finest Hollywood's ever produced.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
39:41
SPEAKER_07: And and do y'all know the story that that Sylvester Stallone he he wrote it and wanted to be the actor of it, but Hollywood wanted to buy it from him and put a different actor and he wouldn't do it.
39:57
SPEAKER_07: And just imagine if he would have sold out, we would never know who Sylvester Stallone is.
40:01
SPEAKER_07: The Rocky movie wouldn't have been successful.
40:03
SPEAKER_07: All right.
40:04
SPEAKER_02: Um there would be no creed.
40:06
SPEAKER_07: Yes, yes, right.
40:07
SPEAKER_07: You're right.
40:08
SPEAKER_07: You're right.
40:09
SPEAKER_07: All right.
40:09
SPEAKER_07: When did you write Unlock Your Inner Superhero?
40:12
SPEAKER_07: And would you say that this book is a nut is a book of tools similar to what your app is?
40:18
SPEAKER_07: Is it all intertwined?
40:20
SPEAKER_01: So I wrote Unlock Your Inner Superhero, Conquering the Challenges of ADHD about three years ago.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: It was just published in June.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: And there were three reasons why I wrote the book.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: The first one was I wanted to let the readers know that somebody out there understood them and I wanted to validate their experience because while there are many terrific books out there about ADHD, not a lot of them really speak to the experience that teens and college students, or kids for that matter, have with ADHD.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: The second reason I wanted to write the book was to remind them that they are bringing their own strengths to the table without even reading the book.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, we all bring something to the table in the form of strengths.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: And for people who are have ADHD, they are constantly thinking outside of the box.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: They're very creative, they're great problem solvers, they're extremely intelligent.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, so many of them are compassionate because they know what it's like to live in a world that's not going to bend to them and accommodate them.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: And I wanted them to know to remember that about themselves.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: And then the other was to empower them.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: So there are a ton of tools and strategies in that book that I actually use with my clients and their families.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: And I know that they work, so I wanted to go beyond the confines of my four walls in the office and help as many people as possible for both the book as well as the app.
41:50
SPEAKER_07: And you've told us already some examples, the gamifying and some other exercises, but yeah, tell tell us a few more and then start tying that into how the app has enhanced the whole tools and exercise endeavor of yours to help people.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: So I think that if you can develop a sense of awareness about yourself, what makes you tick and what holds you back, I think that that's really important.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: I think that if you know you are prone to waiting until the last minute to get out the door, that the night before, if you can put out your clothes, if you can, you know, make your lunch if you're packing your lunch and put it in the refrigerator, maybe even have a sticky note on your mirror that says lunchbox to remind you to bring your lunchbox, put everything that you need packed up in your work bag or your backpack by the door so that all you have to do is literally put on your shoes and go, then that's in that's key.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: I think that you know, if you tend to get lost in the shower, which a lot of people do, um, you can either set a timer, but if you want to add a different element to it, then you can create a shower playlist so that you know that when Casha comes on with you know her song, that that's the last song on your playlist.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: And when she comes on, you need to get ready to leave the shower.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: So that's a fun way to kind of you know weave in that time element of it.
43:24
SPEAKER_07: Um I did not know the shower was a thing.
43:27
SPEAKER_07: You said getting lost in the shower.
43:30
SPEAKER_07: Wow.
43:30
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I was I was trying to figure out a question myself because I was like, because I know some people that take really, really long showers, and um I didn't know that it possibly had a connection to ADD or ADHD, whatever.
43:43
SPEAKER_06: ADD's not a thing anymore, Chip.
43:45
SPEAKER_06: I know, and I I caught it.
43:47
SPEAKER_06: Um so what explain that, like what's happening there?
43:51
SPEAKER_01: In the shower?
43:52
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: So first of all, it feels good.
43:56
SPEAKER_01: Second of all, some people do their best thinking in the shower.
43:59
SPEAKER_01: And if you have ADHD and you tend to get lost in thought, then you know I mean I have had families come in to me and tell me that their kid takes a shower and they're not out for 45 minutes to an hour later.
44:12
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: So, which is not advanced.
44:14
SPEAKER_06: I've got a grandchild that says that does that.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they do play their music, but they play their music like ad nauseum.
44:21
SPEAKER_01: There's no endpoint, which is why if you want to play your music, then make a playlist so that you know that you've got five or six songs that amounts to 20 minutes.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: That's a civilized period of time to take a shower and get out.
44:41
SPEAKER_06: As soon as that last song starts to Would it be wrong to think that a child who takes a forty five minute shower is that indicative of ADHD?
44:52
SPEAKER_06: Or would that be the wrong connection to make?
44:55
SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they could be in there with uh, you know, the soapy crayons that you can decorate the inside of the shower with and they're just getting, you know, lost in whatever it is that they're doing.
45:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
45:06
SPEAKER_01: It could also be an avoidant thing, you know, maybe something happened with mom or dad and uh they just got home from soccer practice and they know that if they're in the shower, they can sort of push push off the inevitable.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: So uh or they're really dirty because they were playing rugby out in the rain and in the mud.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's any number of things.
45:26
SPEAKER_06: But what if what if it's not connected to any circumstantial you know it it's all the time?
45:35
SPEAKER_01: Would that be it could be I I wouldn't hang my hat on ADHD just because they're you know spending time in the shower for 45 minutes.
45:43
SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: Joey, you also talked about I forgot exactly what the original question was, but you know, stacking the things that you need to do.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: So for example, if you need to feed the dog, and that's something that you sadly forget until you know Fido is nipping at your heels, then you could put the bowl above a drawer where you keep all of your dog's um kibble and maybe canned food and um pills or whatever that they need.
46:11
SPEAKER_01: So all you have to do is literally open the drawer and take out the food.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: The bowl is right there, you pour it, you put it down, and then you wash it and put it back right above the drawer, you're setting yourself up for success like that.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, and that's what I try to do for the app because sometimes when it comes to kind of accessing thoughts and making decisions, like we were talking about earlier in this interview, it's really difficult to do that.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: So I tried to prefabricate everything that the user would need so that there's a minimal amount of initiation and thinking that needs to take place.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: And all of these tools are integrated with each other, which is very um unique.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: There isn't an app out there right now that addresses time management, organization, accountability, and dialing in, which is what Toad stands for.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: And in doing that, I am giving the user the opportunity to not only support themselves with this app, but also to develop and maintain these executive functioning skills.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: So it's like having me in their back pocket.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: And that was actually one of the interesting pieces of feedback that we got from our beta testers was that they said it's like having Hannah Bookbinder in my back pocket wherever I go.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: And you take everything that you have in the course of your life and you kind of whittle it down to one area so that if you need to be held accountable for your time management, if you need to be reminded of things, if you need to be able to reach out for help and advocate for yourself, if you want to develop a document, if you want to remember your get-to-dos that you need to do on your to-do list, and I try to put a positive spin on that by calling it a get-to-do list as opposed to a to-do list, these are all available in one location.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to go to multiple apps to do it.
48:03
SPEAKER_01: It's very simplified and it's very ADHD friendly, just like the book.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: The book is very ADHD friendly.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to read cover to cover in order to benefit from it.
48:13
SPEAKER_01: You can pick and choose, things are bullet pointed.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: And with the app, if you need help to be able to remember how to use one of the tools, we have a help center that's built in there as well.
48:23
SPEAKER_07: So it sounds customizable, like the dog example.
48:27
SPEAKER_07: You can actually, if somebody has your app, they can input that information and get help with remembering about the dog.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
48:35
SPEAKER_07: That's pretty cool.
48:36
SPEAKER_01: There's points of reflection in the app too, because I have a task manager feature where if you have a particular task, you are pointedly asked, how do you feel about this task?
48:49
SPEAKER_01: And if it's easy or medium, great.
48:51
SPEAKER_01: If it's difficult, then you're prompted to reach out to your contacts, which I call SOS contacts in the app.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: And you can import those from your phone into the app so that if I am working on something that I feel particularly uneasy about, then I can send you or Chip or both of you a message that says, you know, hey guys, I'm working on this project and I just wanted to let you know because science has shown that when I announce and publicize my intentions, I'm more likely to follow through on it.
49:21
SPEAKER_01: However, if I am feeling that that's not going to be enough, then I can ask you in a prefabricated text, everything is written already for them, to say, I need you to check in with me tomorrow at two o'clock to make sure that I followed through on this, then you guys get that text as well.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: And then you know to follow through.
49:39
SPEAKER_07: Well, I'll close with a question for both of y'all.
49:42
SPEAKER_07: You guys answer this however you feel.
49:44
SPEAKER_07: If someone has ADHD, would you say they have a responsibility to acquire tools for themselves and for people they love who are in their day-to-day?
49:56
SPEAKER_07: Would you use that word responsibility?
49:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I would say it's a responsibility.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: I think that you know each of us owes it to ourselves to um, you know, to Chip's point, you have one life to live.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: You owe it to yourself to give yourself every opportunity to live that great life.
50:18
SPEAKER_01: So if that means that you need to get evaluated and or if you know that you have ADHD to work with a coach or to work with a psychiatrist or a physician who can prescribe medication, who who can reliably um, you know, decide that medicine is the right way to go, then you know, why wouldn't you give yourself that opportunity?
50:41
SPEAKER_07: You agree, Chip?
50:42
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, definitely.
50:43
SPEAKER_06: Responsibility is a tricky word for people.
50:45
SPEAKER_06: It's very isolating, you might say.
50:48
SPEAKER_06: You know, I'd probably want to do exactly what Hannah just said, challenge them, you know.
50:52
SPEAKER_06: Let's just say this is the biggest detractor or thief in your life.
50:55
SPEAKER_06: In other words, this this takes more away from you in the areas that matter than anything else.
51:01
SPEAKER_06: Wouldn't you want to do everything you could in that one area that's going to enrich every other area of your life?
51:07
SPEAKER_06: And again, try to do it in as non-judgmental a way as possible because uh, I mean, partly because of ADHD and other factors, people don't uh don't find it easy to take on challenges like that.
51:23
SPEAKER_06: And I think I I was that way to some degree because I would look at the hill in front of me.
51:30
SPEAKER_06: I would be aware of what's on the other side, like, wow, this would be so worth it.
51:34
SPEAKER_06: But here's what I would do I would estimate based on past performance the likelihood of my getting over that hill.
51:41
SPEAKER_06: Often what would happen with me is I'd start a project or something, an endeavor of some kind, that little voice in there would be whispering this, what makes you think you're gonna finish this one?
51:52
SPEAKER_06: What makes you think you're gonna blah, blah, blah?
51:54
SPEAKER_06: And eventually it would win.
51:55
SPEAKER_06: And I just say, you know, you're right, screw it.
51:57
SPEAKER_06: Bottom line is my dad would call me lazy.
51:59
SPEAKER_06: And I don't know, Hannah, if you've seen people have to deal with that connection.
52:04
SPEAKER_06: But when I realized I wasn't lazy, I was really afraid.
52:09
SPEAKER_06: I was afraid of repeating the cycle of not finishing.
52:14
SPEAKER_06: And uh when I realized it was fear, not laziness, I I don't know, something shifted inside of me.
52:19
SPEAKER_06: And I said, I can deal with fear, I can deal with fear.
52:22
SPEAKER_06: And I got over a few hills and tasted what's on the other side.
52:27
SPEAKER_06: But I know how hard it is to look at that hill and and decide, not not that you're willing to put forth the effort, but that you have some reasonable hope that you're gonna really follow through this time.
52:41
SPEAKER_06: That was a big breakthrough for me when I realized that I was sabotaging myself out of projecting my past into my future.
52:49
SPEAKER_07: Interesting.
52:50
SPEAKER_07: That's cool.
52:51
SPEAKER_06: People know they're screwing up, man.
52:52
SPEAKER_06: I don't know any people you have to tell them they're messing up.
52:55
SPEAKER_06: I I don't know that I've ever met one.
52:57
SPEAKER_06: You know you're screwing up in this area of your life.
52:59
SPEAKER_06: They know that.
53:01
SPEAKER_06: Most of them want some help finding and then somebody who'll walk with them down a path they've never been able to navigate before.
53:10
SPEAKER_06: It's a tricky thing.
53:11
SPEAKER_06: And I like the way Hannah.
53:12
SPEAKER_06: Hannah went there too, that she, you know, obviously she's been in the trenches.
53:16
SPEAKER_06: You can't just lay a challenge out there.
53:18
SPEAKER_06: You know, here it is.
53:20
SPEAKER_06: Pull it off, do it.
53:22
SPEAKER_06: Three-quarters of the people are done.
53:24
SPEAKER_06: They're they're gonna go to another counselor.
53:26
SPEAKER_06: Because if they could do it, they'd have done it without you.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: And I and I think, you know, you raise a good point, Chip.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: I think that very often people who have ADHD are are mislabeled and misunderstood.
53:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh they're lazy, they're defiant, they're difficult, they're not motivated, and that's that's not necessarily the case.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it depends on the circumstances, it depends on the individual.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think that it's really important for people in general, not just people who are neurodivergent, to surround yourself with people who understand you, who value you, who will support you and bring out the best in you, and forget the other people who are just gonna pull you back.
54:05
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
54:06
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and I've been I've been blessed and honored by having those people around me for the most part.
54:11
SPEAKER_06: I I would say pretty much always.
54:14
SPEAKER_06: My mom was like that.
54:15
SPEAKER_06: I had four sisters, and it was like having five moms and friends like Joey, much as I hate to compliment them.
54:25
SPEAKER_07: Well, if if you struggle with ADHD and you like what you heard from Hannah Bookbinder, and you'd like to have Hannah in your back pocket, it's all possible with the My Toad app.
54:39
SPEAKER_07: We'll have a link in the show notes for people to be able to check that out as well as the book.
54:44
SPEAKER_07: And then Hannah, out of curiosity, with you living in, I think you said the suburbs of of Philadelphia, can you do online consulting or that has to be in state or uh I do it all the time.
54:57
SPEAKER_01: I cross state lines all the time.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: We do virtual um work, uh, and people can find out more information about my practice at uh www.academically.com.
55:10
SPEAKER_01: That's the word academic with a hyphen in between and then al y dot com.
55:16
SPEAKER_07: Cool.
55:16
SPEAKER_07: We'll have that in the show notes too.
55:17
SPEAKER_07: Thank you so much.
55:18
SPEAKER_07: This has been great.
55:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they can also follow us on our socials too.
55:22
SPEAKER_01: We're on Facebook, LinkedIn, um, TikTok, and Instagram.
55:27
SPEAKER_06: Enjoyed it.
55:28
SPEAKER_06: Enjoyed it, Hannah.
55:29
SPEAKER_06: I really did.
55:29
SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for having me, guys.
55:31
SPEAKER_06: I did put you gave me some nice handles to think about it.
55:35
SPEAKER_06: Uh yeah.
55:37
SPEAKER_06: Even for myself, to be honest with you.
55:38
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
55:39
SPEAKER_01: I also wanted to uh I know that you're still recording, but I also wanted to um put out to you that as I'm meeting people, I'm trying to partner with them because it's really important to me.
55:51
SPEAKER_01: This is obviously my life's passion and working with this population to try and get these tools out to as many people as possible.
55:59
SPEAKER_01: So um one of the things that I'm doing is to um give people their own personal code.
56:08
SPEAKER_01: So I and uh Chip, I forgot the name of your um podcast, but it could be the name of the podcast, and then when anybody from your pool of followers or people who you know uses your code, then you would get a commission off of that sale.
56:27
SPEAKER_01: Open to that conversation.
56:28
SPEAKER_07: Cool.
56:29
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, that'd be great.
56:30
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, absolutely.