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Transcript

Attenders To Members · The Reformatory

0:00
[SPEAKER_08]: What do you got for me?
0:02
[SPEAKER_08]: I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do
0:32
[SPEAKER_08]: But as I'm not for me, we could have had the benediction right there, that was so good.
0:36
[SPEAKER_03]: What's going on everyone and welcome to the Reformatory of the podcast for the local church and by the local church and we are your local churchman.
0:43
[SPEAKER_03]: My name is Josh and I'm here as always with the man from myth the captain.
0:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Jack Barry Jack and you're looking snazzy today.
0:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you dress up just for me?
0:54
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I didn't No, I didn't man you had an opportunity for Friend points and you're like yeah, no don't need them now.
1:05
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't need those people I don't dress up that's fresh.
1:08
[SPEAKER_05]: You know what I dress up for Josh with a flannel.
1:10
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what I dress up for Josh Yeah, that's yeah, understandable
1:16
[SPEAKER_03]: understandable.
1:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Jack, my man, how are you?
1:19
[SPEAKER_03]: It's good to see you in an eventful week.
1:21
[SPEAKER_03]: We had a postpone.
1:23
[SPEAKER_03]: uh... record regular recording time because my day yesterday was super busy ended up having to run a whole bunch of rebar to a friend's house so five times fun time so that friend is listening yes postponed for you my man uh... good gracious uh... but jack we've got a lot to talk about today man oh but out we got a fun announcement ladies and gentlemen
1:49
[SPEAKER_03]: If you follow us on the socials, you will have seen some amazing new merch that has just dropped over on the reformatory Amazon store, the Baptist line.
2:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Jack, we have two, count them, two, brand new Baptist centric designs that have just
2:18
[SPEAKER_03]: and shirt, and then the particular Baptist, hoodie, and shirt, both insanely reasonably priced for custom apparel, but ladies and gentlemen, you can click the link in the description of this episode.
2:33
[SPEAKER_03]: Have an over to our Amazon store.
2:35
[SPEAKER_03]: and get yourself some amazing Baptist wear or you know if you happen to be of the Presby persuasion we got the stay confessional one on there too we haven't forgot about you guys haven't forgot about you guys we had to show some love some love to our baptism brethren stay warm stay stylish stay Baptist and that's right the Baptist line is now released on Amazon go get yourself
3:01
[SPEAKER_03]: some amazing swag and yeah, stay confessional and look good doing it.
3:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Jack, it's what we do.
3:07
[SPEAKER_03]: So what we do here at the reformatory, we want people to stay confessional.
3:10
[SPEAKER_03]: But we don't want them to be boring, and we don't want them to look dumb or sloppy while they're doing it.
3:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Alright, be like Jack, and dress up for the occasion.
3:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Alright.
3:21
[SPEAKER_03]: It's good stuff.
3:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Make sure to head on over there, check that out.
3:23
[SPEAKER_03]: We'd appreciate the support.
3:25
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you guys happen to pick some up, make sure to tag us on social, so that we can share that around.
3:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Cause we like to see in.
3:32
[SPEAKER_03]: our listeners all swagged up in some good looking stuff.
3:36
[SPEAKER_03]: But Jack, my man, that is all of the announcements that we've got for today.
3:42
[SPEAKER_03]: And before we hop into a topic that I am personally very excited about.
3:46
[SPEAKER_03]: I love talking about membership.
3:49
[SPEAKER_03]: I love talking about just general ecclesiastical.
3:54
[SPEAKER_03]: goodness.
3:55
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what this podcast is built on, right?
3:58
[SPEAKER_03]: And we love talking about that.
3:59
[SPEAKER_03]: But before we do it, it's time to get to everyone's favorite segments.
4:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't forget to eat your instant grams.
4:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And know the time you're moving forward.
4:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't forget to eat your instant grams.
4:14
[SPEAKER_02]: With your host, Josh Loftus on Jack Mary.
4:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And remember kids, it's not heresy if you're
4:23
[SPEAKER_03]: This is, don't forget to eat your Instagrams and remember, kids, it's not here to see if you believe it hard enough that's how it works.
4:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Jack's speaking to the Instagrams, we blowing up over there on the reformatory page.
4:31
[SPEAKER_03]: You see how much how much reach some of these reels are getting, dude.
4:35
[SPEAKER_03]: We cross like 120,000.
4:39
[SPEAKER_05]: I haven't seen that.
4:40
[SPEAKER_05]: I know that you shared Pastor Rudy's clip.
4:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I did that one a day.
4:44
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know, yeah, I'm just good.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, shout out Pastor Rudy.
4:47
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, yeah, no, reformatory killing it over there.
4:49
[SPEAKER_03]: on the real.
4:50
[SPEAKER_03]: So as always, send us your instant grams that you would like us to react to.
4:55
[SPEAKER_03]: But Jack, today we have, okay, how to say this, we've got both sides of the spectrum when it comes to
5:05
[SPEAKER_03]: masculinity, the whole class.
5:07
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm hitting, we're hitting all cylinders today.
5:11
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
5:12
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to start.
5:13
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to start with, uh, we're start the one that I that I personally, well, actually, I mean, one, one, I actually agree with.
5:21
[SPEAKER_03]: It's it's actually funny.
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[SPEAKER_03]: so we've got one that fits in the regular Instagram and the other one that you know it fits the edginess of the reformatory but at the end of the day your boy didn't see nothing wrong with it so but we're gonna hit you with that we're gonna hit you with this one first Jack I want to introduce you to this individual don't know their name don't really care but they've got a message for you and our listeners
5:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, yeah, here you go.
5:45
[SPEAKER_00]: These Christians are jobs should not be to point out the problems of others.
5:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Our goal should be loving others through action and not just word.
5:54
[SPEAKER_00]: In order to love others, you have to put yourself in their eyes of love, not yours.
6:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember when I was not a believer and I literally hated Christians because I always felt like they were just trying to tell me how to love and how to live.
6:10
[SPEAKER_00]: We are
6:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you sure that was the Christians?
6:13
[SPEAKER_03]: What was that?
6:15
[SPEAKER_03]: The Bible.
6:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
6:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe maybe the Bible.
6:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's continue.
6:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Made in his image.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He is actually embedded into our DNA.
6:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Science is provenness.
6:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Reminds me of the one greatest commandment.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Love thy neighbor.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's our job.
6:34
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you forgot the first half of that commandment.
6:37
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's the second part.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Pretty sure the first part is.
6:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, your mind, and your strength.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And then love your neighbor as yourself.
6:48
[SPEAKER_03]: It's almost as if you need to do one in order to do the other correctly.
6:54
[SPEAKER_03]: But I mean, I'm just a hateful Christian, let's continue.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Neighbor.
6:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It's our job, not to say, hey,
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is wrong.
7:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You're wrong.
7:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Love people where they're at and not where you think they should be.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly what Jesus did to me to save me many a years ago.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Not requiring anything, but my heart.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Jack, Jack, I can't.
7:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you know Jack said, all you need to do?
7:25
[SPEAKER_04]: What do you say?
7:26
[SPEAKER_04]: What do you say?
7:30
[SPEAKER_03]: He's at my cart line in person and then I just loved my neighbor and then everything was fine And it just ended up being totally cool between me and God now I just live how I want and everything's fine
7:49
[SPEAKER_03]: The thing is here's the, this came across my feet and I almost didn't put this in but I'm like, you know what, you know what, no dog on it.
7:59
[SPEAKER_03]: This is trash.
8:01
[SPEAKER_03]: This is absolute dog water and it needs to, it needs to be called out because here's the thing people.
8:07
[SPEAKER_03]: You probably already know this.
8:08
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't just love people the way that you think love needs to be without the standard of scripture being
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[SPEAKER_03]: your love.
8:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I know I'm preaching to the choir, but Jack, okay, we're going to move on to the direct opposite other side of this of this spectrum.
8:30
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know who this guy is, but this came across this came across my feet pretty much right after this dude, and I'm like, you know what,
8:39
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, we had some sweet and it's time for some salty.
8:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
8:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, next can stand off here.
8:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Should the Christian allow himself to be killed since he has secured his faith in hopes that the non-believer will someday find hope in Christ?
8:55
[SPEAKER_07]: No.
8:56
[SPEAKER_07]: You should shoot that mug in the head.
9:01
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
9:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
9:03
[SPEAKER_03]: John, John Piper.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, let's look at the end here.
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[SPEAKER_07]: Oh, God, I saw a new salvation.
9:11
[SPEAKER_07]: If God wanted to save him, he would have already done it.
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[SPEAKER_07]: God has either, God is either omnipotent or unable.
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[SPEAKER_07]: So I think he's omnipotent and all powerful to save.
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[SPEAKER_07]: So it is not up to you and your lack of self-defense that this God's salvation is resting upon.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so here's the thing.
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[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, right.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Here's the thing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I understand.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I probably wouldn't have said it the way he said it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm speaking for me personally, yeah, I agree with this dance.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I am not going to sacrifice the safety of myself or someone else in order that because I think there's an inherent flaw in that thinking.
9:58
[SPEAKER_03]: in that you're you're presuming that the catalyst of someone's salvation is your actions.
10:05
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I just I don't agree with that mentality.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Now obviously, I think you can make it 20 to life, but I mean.
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[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
10:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, not if it's self-defense, babe.
10:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we are in Washington, actually.
10:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's true.
10:16
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, Washington is not a great state to want to defend yourself.
10:21
[SPEAKER_04]: So you better hold somebody over on like a block away is like videotaping you just like, yes, yeah, I need my cameras up.
10:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Just text somebody, hey, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: My camera part of that was just, no.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You shoot that mug in the head.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Jack two sides of the spectrum today, baby.
10:47
[SPEAKER_03]: We got ying in the ways, man.
10:48
[SPEAKER_04]: We got tomato and tomato.
10:50
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll talk about this.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We'll talk about the ying into the yang on our our pod like I have some.
10:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, you got some release.
10:57
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
10:58
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
10:58
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
11:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, Jack, my friend, that was fun.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's time to get
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[SPEAKER_03]: Today's episode and I'm really looking forward to today's because I think that it's something that a lot of churches, a lot of churches deal with, especially churches that have, I would say a biblical understanding and a biblical priority of
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[SPEAKER_03]: biblical membership, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: We believe that membership is biblical.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We believe that we see it both in the pages of Scripture as well as in church history.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And we think that there is great benefit, health, and all the things to becoming a member at a local church.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We've talked about membership at Nazim.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's many episodes that you can go back and listen to those.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And we will continue to talk about it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be a future up.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But today's
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[SPEAKER_03]: is talking about how we can make the pipeline, if you will, from a tender to member, a little bit more efficient, a little bit more intentional, if you will, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Because we should have an intentionality
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[SPEAKER_03]: behind that process, we should want to see and have a goal for the attenders of our church to become members of our church.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's what we should want, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's not a bad thing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's a good and biblical thing and something that should be encouraged and something that should be cultivated within a culture of a church.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's too many churches out there today that are content with attenders simply being attenders without any type of
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you get that a lot in a lot of the larger churches, the mega church structure, it's just it's it's it's it's part of the beast that you can't escape right and that's part of the reason why I'm not a fan of mega churches is because it's easy to hide it's easy to simply be a number and not an individual and membership is something that you can
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[SPEAKER_03]: be as intentional as you want but the larger your church is the harder it's going to be to get people through that pipeline.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So we're talking about that today.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What are some things that we can do as churches practically that help encourage and facilitate the process and the conversation of membership with our people.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's something that we should want.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I've written down like four or five things that Jack and I are just going to kind of go back and forth on on some some some some potential strategies if you will some some practical encouragements that you can do as a church some of these are a little easier to do than others some of these take a little bit more prep a little bit more time right but that's okay we're going to we're going to get into the so Jack the first one.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's kind of an obvious one, but you make a priority of teaching, teaching about membership.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You make teaching about membership, the importance of membership, why it's biblical, why it's good.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You have a great emphasis in your local church on the teaching of membership.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Now doesn't mean that you're constantly
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[SPEAKER_03]: you know, creating sermon series on on on membership, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Although I think that those can be effective and that there's a place for those, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But what I think this means is that practically the people that are sitting in the pews are hearing from the pulpit are hearing from the teaching, the importance of one of the primary ways that we live out the instructions that we see in scripture.
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[SPEAKER_03]: is in the context of the local church.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I would say specifically in the context of membership, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And that if you want to live like Christ told you to live and and and and do the things that he told you to do wherever you are in scripture, we're seeking to to apply the theology that we're learning, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Or the doxie and orthopraxie we've talked about that before.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There should be an outlet for that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And that's something that that that that that there needs to be a
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[SPEAKER_03]: for the things that we are preaching to be able to be lived out and the membership of the local church is one of not the only but one of the primary avenues and environments in which those truths are lived out.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So we got to teach on it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We got to teach about membership.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Why it's important?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Why it's vital?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Why the lone wolf Christian is not a it's not a biblical Christian.
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[SPEAKER_03]: right and the spirit of individuality that we've talked about the last couple of Eps, why that has to be broken in us because it's not the spirit of Christ and it's a spirit of self and and wanting to be your own God, wanting to be your own Christ, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's ultimately what it is, as you don't want accountability naturally.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We don't want to be held accountable.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We don't want to
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[SPEAKER_03]: be in community naturally.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We want to isolate, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's a reason that when someone is caught in sin on repentant sin, you don't see them pressing in a whole lot.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The tendency is to back out and self-isolate because you don't want
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[SPEAKER_03]: what comes with biblical community and that's accountability, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And then I was obviously encouragement and mutual pressing one another on toward love and good works, lots of good things, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: But if you want a culture of membership in your local church and you want that to be something that is known, something that is appreciated and is understood.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You gotta teach on it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's gotta be something that's part of your application, gotta be something that people are sick and tired of hearing if I can be tongue and cheek there.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Anything on that, Jack, before you take number two?
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think there's ways in which you could go about doing teaching about membership.
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[SPEAKER_05]: This can be as simple as
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[SPEAKER_05]: structuring it and maybe this is this kind of leads into point two.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Actually, I think I'm going to lead into point two with with my thoughts on teaching about membership Because that's because we're professionals.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, because I do I think they're more applicable.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm going to give you because I give you a couple of examples from what we do at our local church, right?
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, so there's a way in which we I know it's monthly.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's the second Sunday the second boards day in the month
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think it is.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It's a second or lords day in the month where we do a coffee connect.
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[SPEAKER_05]: where new people who have been maybe attending for a couple weeks or something along those lines, they can come have coffee, meet our pastors, talk to our pastors, our pastors talk about probably membership.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I haven't been to a coffee connect, but I know that's how they encourage membership at our local church.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And then from there as well too, even the time in which we do basically like a
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[SPEAKER_05]: a class, like a membership class.
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[SPEAKER_05]: That's not your membership class should not be like a we joke about it all the time.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It's like not like a time share, like meeting to where you're just stuck there and you either have to say yes or somehow you've got to whittle your way out of saying no
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[SPEAKER_05]: in times.
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[SPEAKER_05]: My wife and I actually got stuck in a, like, we didn't know this.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_05]: We were on our honeymoon going down to Mexico and we basically got like free breakfast and all the stuff and we got like a tour of this like a hotel place and then trying to sell time shares and I literally had to say no a thousand times to get out of this even though we got like a really good like
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[SPEAKER_05]: to say no a billion times.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So membership classes shouldn't be like a time share meeting.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Like membership classes should be a time where you actually understand the theology of the church, understand what the church believes about tiding and offerings.
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[SPEAKER_05]: That's an important topic to talk about these days about where do you stand as far as theologically goes?
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[SPEAKER_05]: Like, are we more
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[SPEAKER_05]: Are we more, quote unquote, evangelical or non-denominational in our theology, I would say more evangelical.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, there's no really non-denominational theology other than smoke machines and laser light shows.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So if you want to know those things, like we do it in a way in which we basically do it from capitals to little lower case, so upper case lower case.
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[SPEAKER_05]: We would say that a lot of people would look at themselves as uppercase reformed.
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[SPEAKER_05]: We would look at ourselves as lower case reformed, meaning like a more broader view of what reformed means, because reformed Baptists.
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[SPEAKER_05]: we wouldn't be, we are the, we are the outsiders of the reformed world to be quite honest.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Like we're not, well, we are the party.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We are the bad boys.
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[SPEAKER_05]: 90% of the time.
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[SPEAKER_04]: The dark side.
20:42
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, and we love it.
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[SPEAKER_05]: You have to look at like the upper case letters versus the lower case letters, right?
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[SPEAKER_05]: Some some churches can be capital B Baptist because they are in a Baptist denomination versus we would say that we're like lower case B Baptist meaning that we're credo Baptist and sometimes we don't take on some of those cultural views of big B Baptists.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So there's stuff like that that we talk about in that membership class.
21:13
[SPEAKER_05]: I think what helped me out the most was just
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[SPEAKER_05]: understanding the way in which a belief system is around offering and tithing.
21:26
[SPEAKER_05]: Because I think I think churches who have been a part of Acts 29 or who have been a part of Marsill or those adjacent churches have always been accustomed to this 10% it's either that or nothing kind of modern.
21:40
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure versus hey it's like offering
21:45
[SPEAKER_05]: It's more than that.
21:46
[SPEAKER_05]: It's more than money.
21:48
[SPEAKER_05]: It's more than a number.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so, am I local church we talk about like, hey, we're not telling you to like tie 10% like that's completely up to you in the Lord.
21:58
[SPEAKER_05]: But offering and tithing is way more than just your money.
22:02
[SPEAKER_05]: It's your time.
22:03
[SPEAKER_05]: It's your time and what your talents are for using that towards the church and stuff along those lines.
22:10
[SPEAKER_05]: And so, mm-hmm.
22:11
[SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, I think that membership classes need to be more along those lines of like the teaching dynamics of it as well too, but then also you just have to kind of you could do it in a couple different ways, like I said, you can do coffee connects have those like on certain lords days of the month, you could do it up here in a peer and seed row, we call them red bull round tables.
22:36
[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, there's ways in which you can encourage membership that way, and then there's also other ways, you know, we have when you usually in your local church, you have men's and women's ministries, right?
22:54
[SPEAKER_05]: So, we're doing something where we are starting to do that more often and do it in a way in which the women's and the men's ministries, they kind of are starting to kind of bounce ideas off of each other and get ways in which, you know, you do, you know, right now we're going to have like a hockey night, like we go see the Thunderbirds.
23:17
[SPEAKER_05]: Nice.
23:18
[SPEAKER_05]: to the end of the month.
23:20
[SPEAKER_05]: That can be a way where you can start encouraging membership for like what I do as a community group leader.
23:28
[SPEAKER_05]: I can encourage membership inside of my community group, which has been pretty sweet to see.
23:34
[SPEAKER_05]: I think we had at one point in time.
23:38
[SPEAKER_05]: trying to remember.
23:38
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it was like two couples that came to our church became members.
23:44
[SPEAKER_05]: So two married couples became members within like, I don't know, last, I know last year they became members, but it was just like so sweet to see people in my community group was the majority of the new members in our local church.
24:03
[SPEAKER_05]: And so there's stuff like that where you as a local
24:07
[SPEAKER_05]: leader as a community group leader, maybe as a deacon, maybe as a laelder, you can start to encourage membership through very simple ways, whether that be conversations, whether that be conversations, even at like a men's ministry event or something along those lines, but you could do it in various different ways that isn't like
24:29
[SPEAKER_05]: sign here on the dot line kind of.
24:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
24:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
24:32
[SPEAKER_03]: No, absolutely.
24:33
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
24:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
24:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
24:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
24:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's that's how we view our membership classes as well.
24:37
[SPEAKER_03]: This isn't there isn't a time at the end of those classes where you, you know, you pull out your, you pull out your sign up sheet and be like, okay, who's in?
24:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, who's not like, that's not, that's not how we do things.
24:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Our membership classes are primarily informational.
24:51
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, it's for those people to know and understand who we are and what we do and why we do what we do, right?
24:58
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what it's for, right?
24:59
[SPEAKER_03]: And then those those more intentional conversations come later, right?
25:03
[SPEAKER_03]: But you're right, right?
25:04
[SPEAKER_03]: When not only do we need to, like we said, the first one is teach about membership and you covered that really well.
25:09
[SPEAKER_03]: We have to encourage membership.
25:10
[SPEAKER_03]: We have to have opportunities for membership to be encouraged, whether that be gatherings, whether that
25:19
[SPEAKER_03]: membership should not only be taught, but it should be encouraged.
25:23
[SPEAKER_03]: There should be practical ways for those who are in attendance to know when and where they can get information about joining the church.
25:33
[SPEAKER_03]: It should be accessible and it should be as often as
25:38
[SPEAKER_03]: is needed.
25:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, just because someone's in the class doesn't mean that they are going to join the church, right?
25:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
25:44
[SPEAKER_03]: I think some churches are worried, like, well, this person's only been here three months and they're already asking about membership.
25:49
[SPEAKER_03]: That's fine, right?
25:51
[SPEAKER_03]: They want to know about the church that they are attending.
25:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
25:54
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not a bad thing.
25:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Just because they go through membership classes doesn't mean that they need to become become part of the church, right?
26:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you still have oversight over that.
26:03
[SPEAKER_03]: but encourage membership and encourage those opportunities, right?
26:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Number three, make membership and this is a sticky one.
26:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, this is how we do things that just not every church does this, all right?
26:15
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not saying that this is this is if you're not doing this, then you're somehow doing things wrong.
26:19
[SPEAKER_03]: I have found this to be an effective way to encourage membership and I'll explain why.
26:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Number three is to make membership a requirement for serving in the local church, right?
26:31
[SPEAKER_03]: And right off the bat, some people been like, whoa, dude, like that's, that's way too strict, right?
26:37
[SPEAKER_03]: You're gonna, you're gonna say that only people who are members of your church or the ones that can serve in the church?
26:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
26:44
[SPEAKER_03]: And here's why.
26:46
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
26:47
[SPEAKER_03]: I applaud.
26:49
[SPEAKER_03]: and encourage and I'm thankful when someone comes up to one of us elders and says, hey, I want to get more plugged in.
26:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to get serving in some way, right?
27:04
[SPEAKER_03]: I have this need and I have this desire to do this, right?
27:07
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that.
27:08
[SPEAKER_03]: It's one of the one of the most encouraging things that I can hear on the Lord's Day.
27:14
[SPEAKER_03]: If that also,
27:16
[SPEAKER_03]: goes in tandem with a lack of desire to join the membership of the church.
27:23
[SPEAKER_03]: I have some questions.
27:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
27:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Why?
27:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you have such a desire and a want to serve your brothers and sisters in the church, but you do not want to be in covenant relationship with them?
27:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
27:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Why is that?
27:42
[SPEAKER_03]: What's going on there, okay?
27:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, there can be a lot of reasons for that.
27:45
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't out of the, how do they get me to be in cities?
27:49
[SPEAKER_03]: But I do see it as an inconsistency, right?
27:53
[SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes this is the lack of understanding of what membership is, why it's important, right?
27:57
[SPEAKER_03]: We have, we're right in the middle of our new members classes right now.
28:01
[SPEAKER_03]: And these are stuff that we're dealing with.
28:04
[SPEAKER_03]: People asking, okay, so why do you require, you know, map service?
28:10
[SPEAKER_03]: to be done by the members.
28:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, there's practical reasons.
28:13
[SPEAKER_03]: One, I want to know who you are, right?
28:15
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're going to be serving in the local church, I think you should be part of the local church.
28:21
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're going to be placed in a in a position of responsibility, I want to know that we're on the same page, right?
28:30
[SPEAKER_03]: At least at least as members go, right?
28:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I need to know that you are part of us and we're and we're part of you, right?
28:38
[SPEAKER_03]: I also want to make sure
28:40
[SPEAKER_03]: that you are not trying to seek after the benefits of being a member without the responsibility of being a member, because we can't have it both ways, right?
28:52
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of individuals that treat the local church as a cohabitating with a boyfriend or a girlfriend.
29:02
[SPEAKER_03]: you want the benefits and you gain the benefits, but you don't want any of the commitment, right?
29:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, there's can be reasons for that, some more insidious than others, but that is something that needs to be addressed.
29:15
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's something that I think it needs to be encouraged and worked through.
29:18
[SPEAKER_03]: And I have found that one of the best ways to encourage membership is to tie that to serving.
29:24
[SPEAKER_03]: If you want to be part of this local church and serve this local church, we're in covenant community together.
29:31
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think that that's an outrageous thing to require when you break it down like that.
29:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, let's my thoughts.
29:39
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think I agree with you pretty much 98% of the way.
29:44
[SPEAKER_05]: I would say I'll take it.
29:47
[SPEAKER_05]: I would say the things that I've seen backfire in not having members serve, or not having, yeah, basically not having members serve, but just people attending,
29:57
[SPEAKER_05]: is you sometimes do not know their just belief status.
30:04
[SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
30:05
[SPEAKER_05]: They may say some very Christian things, but I mean on the deeper parts of them, they might be in a situation if they
30:17
[SPEAKER_05]: like discipline, like member discipline at that point, church discipline at that point.
30:22
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, exactly.
30:24
[SPEAKER_05]: I've been in one or two situations where we didn't have church members, where we didn't have that caveat where church members can only serve and it was, anybody can attend, conserve.
30:37
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's playing a little bit loose with this phrase has gotten
30:46
[SPEAKER_05]: This whole idea where you can belong before you believe, kind of idea.
30:52
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's a very secret sensitive, that's a very, like you're showing a lot of non-committal at that point.
31:01
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's just, that's not how the gospel works.
31:04
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's just like we believe and then we belong.
31:08
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's just, it just doesn't like, I get the whole idea of like certain churches aren't welcoming, but that's the problem with your church.
31:18
[SPEAKER_05]: That's not the problem with outsiders, not feeling belonged or not feeling a belonging ship.
31:24
[SPEAKER_05]: No, that's the problem within your local church and not you welcoming those people and talking to them like quick enough and having hospitality.
31:32
[SPEAKER_05]: So, absolutely.
31:33
[SPEAKER_05]: have problems with the whole belong before you believe kind of mantra that's been going around the low like within the last like probably five or ten years.
31:42
[SPEAKER_05]: Yep.
31:42
[SPEAKER_05]: And then yeah, I would say the only caveat to like attend or members may be serving more.
31:49
[SPEAKER_05]: I would say if people have attended
31:54
[SPEAKER_03]: and you know them and you know that they're believers and they're on their way towards membership then I would start maybe opening the gates that is a that is I am comfortable with that caveat yes yes absolutely yes they're if they're known right and they've they are they've been intentional with the relationships right and that's obviously a two-way street and they're in the process of membership I I would be comfortable
32:18
[SPEAKER_03]: with that caveat.
32:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, I think that that was my only two percent.
32:24
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I wouldn't say even disagreement, but just a caveat.
32:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I agree with it.
32:28
[SPEAKER_03]: So now we're back up to a hundred very.
32:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Look at us go jack hit us hit us with number four.
32:33
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so number four is really just, um, I think it's number three, maybe.
32:38
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we talked about serving.
32:40
[SPEAKER_05]: Sorry, yeah.
32:41
[SPEAKER_05]: Number four is present to the attenders objections.
32:44
[SPEAKER_05]: So this is where we come into, um, probably the most contested thing that I would say, if your church wants you to become members is where you're going to get pushed back at.
32:59
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure, um, you know, I think we've talked about this just bits and pieces.
33:04
[SPEAKER_05]: I think where probably Josh, you're going to get pushed back.
33:11
[SPEAKER_05]: And this is from, you know, I'm in a local church.
33:13
[SPEAKER_05]: We, we would call ourselves, our leadership would call ourselves reform Baptist light.
33:19
[SPEAKER_05]: Because we take a plethora of different Protestant confessions and kind of mold them into one.
33:26
[SPEAKER_05]: Even though we are we're pretty much on that pathway towards 1689 kind of pathway though.
33:34
[SPEAKER_05]: So I would say
33:36
[SPEAKER_05]: where we get pushback a lot and I would see where a lot of reform Baptist second-lenderners get pushback a lot is well if I become a member I have to subscribe to this.
33:49
[SPEAKER_05]: I have to subscribe to the 16 and 80.
33:52
[SPEAKER_05]: I would say a lot of people who like attending local churches but they hear that your confession is the 16 and 89 they're going to get
34:01
[SPEAKER_05]: immediately like push back again.
34:03
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
34:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
34:05
[SPEAKER_05]: And in my case, too, we're going to talk more about the, I think the reform dynamics.
34:13
[SPEAKER_05]: I think I get, I think our church gets pushed back a lot when we talk
34:17
[SPEAKER_05]: what it is when we talk about reform theology, what it is we talk about when we talk about Calvinism, what it is when we talk about just even being creed a Baptist or Baptist as well too.
34:28
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think those pushbacks are where we get that and that's where we just kind of have to answer
34:36
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's not so much like giving into them and I think it's not so much kicking them out of the church, but I think it's starting to, it's a, it's a, it's a teariness.
34:47
[SPEAKER_05]: You have to tear you with those people who are attending.
34:50
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, who have objections to just like talk about, hey us, you know, we would love having you guys here.
34:58
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
34:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
34:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's work through these.
35:00
[SPEAKER_03]: We just.
35:00
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
35:01
[SPEAKER_05]: What would you say are the biggest objections that you have in becoming members?
35:05
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
35:06
[SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes I don't know.
35:07
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
35:07
[SPEAKER_05]: If you get this a lot, Josh, I know you have gotten it in previous churches before, but I think the problem that I get pushed back sometimes in is like,
35:20
[SPEAKER_05]: people want more of a historic Christianity where they want to be in some type of building where they want to have certain vibes, sure they want to have certain architecture and they'll say, I don't want to become a member because this isn't, I'm not having to smile.
35:36
[SPEAKER_05]: Why, why, yes, why are you just actually touring?
35:38
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
35:40
[SPEAKER_05]: So like, I feel like that's
35:42
[SPEAKER_05]: that dynamic that we're set up tear down, I think we get some pushback from that because even though we're working, even though we have a building that building doesn't accommodate the structure of having one service for everybody altogether.
35:57
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure, sure.
35:58
[SPEAKER_05]: So even trying to look for that next step in before we get a building.
36:03
[SPEAKER_05]: I think that's some of a lot of people's like pushback that we're getting right now.
36:08
[SPEAKER_05]: It seems like it could be some other stuff, but I feel like overall.
36:14
[SPEAKER_05]: Those things should be very minute versus what is the church's theology?
36:20
[SPEAKER_05]: How have you felt cared for and loved and taken care of spiritually?
36:29
[SPEAKER_05]: by the pastors and the other local members of that church.
36:33
[SPEAKER_05]: How is the word preached?
36:35
[SPEAKER_05]: How does the church look at the word?
36:38
[SPEAKER_05]: And then how has your life in that local church communally been?
36:43
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I would say those are the four things, excuse me, of kind of looking at those objections versus I think the aesthetics, I think everything else,
36:52
[SPEAKER_05]: even though people don't want to hear this, like, I don't think those matter more than those four things that I just mentioned.
36:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
37:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
37:00
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you have all manner of objections, right?
37:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Whether it's theological or practical, you know, the things that you're bringing up, Jack, where it's just like you just seem to have this idea of what a church is.
37:14
[SPEAKER_03]: in your head and it's not rooted in scriptures rooted in what you culturally grew up with, right?
37:18
[SPEAKER_03]: There's all manner of objections.
37:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
37:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And the, yeah, the, whether I have to subscribe to the 1689 or be, or, you know, or not in order to be a member, I think that when we know people have objections or disagreements, I think we automatically have trouble with assuming that they're hostile and therefore we don't want to, we don't want to engage
37:42
[SPEAKER_03]: with those things because we're afraid that it's going to set a grenade off, right?
37:47
[SPEAKER_03]: sometimes people are hostile and that's something that you have to deal with.
37:51
[SPEAKER_03]: In my experience, excuse me, I have found that it's not so much hostility, it's just lack of understanding.
37:58
[SPEAKER_03]: And that people don't understand it.
38:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Therefore, they are not people are naturally leary of things that they don't understand.
38:05
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't want to embrace that which they don't understand.
38:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe they've had bad experiences with membership in the past.
38:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe they've had
38:15
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, bad experiences with individuals who have called themselves Calvinists and have enacted like it, right?
38:21
[SPEAKER_03]: The whole reformed theology is a big, boogie man of a term and they've seen other churches that have, you know, dealt with and lived that doctor and out and I would say an unbiblical and gracious way, they're naturally going to be more leery, right?
38:34
[SPEAKER_03]: So you're going to have people that have objections in your church toward becoming members, but you can't just let it sit.
38:42
[SPEAKER_03]: you can't just let, you can't just be content with them just being on the outside.
38:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, receiving all of the benefits without any of the commitment, okay?
38:54
[SPEAKER_03]: You have to press into those objections.
38:56
[SPEAKER_03]: You have to address them.
38:57
[SPEAKER_03]: You have to take the initiative.
39:01
[SPEAKER_03]: and work through them with those people.
39:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, I'm not saying that it shouldn't take time.
39:06
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying that it won't take time.
39:07
[SPEAKER_03]: We've had people that have come into membership at Redeemer.
39:11
[SPEAKER_03]: We walked with them for two years working through different, because their background was completely different from almost practically everything that Redeemer teaches and holds to, right?
39:26
[SPEAKER_03]: We were willing to do that because there was intentionality there on both sides, right?
39:31
[SPEAKER_03]: What we are wanting to make sure is that those objections, whether you know they're there and you know the reason or you don't.
39:40
[SPEAKER_03]: that they aren't just left to sit and to grow.
39:44
[SPEAKER_03]: And for that particular situation to atrophy, we have to press in to those objections.
39:53
[SPEAKER_03]: It'd be willing to press into those because we want those individuals to become members of the church.
39:59
[SPEAKER_03]: We want to overcome those objections through time and through teaching and prayer and fellowship.
40:05
[SPEAKER_03]: We want those objections to be overcome
40:09
[SPEAKER_03]: become members, that's what we want, right?
40:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, there's sometimes where that does not work, and that doesn't happen, which is where we come to our fifth and final point, right?
40:20
[SPEAKER_03]: So we've had teach about membership, encourage membership, make membership a requirement for serving, press into the attenders' objections, and fifth and finally, there will be times, and this is
40:39
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
40:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
40:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And this takes some nuance and some talking through, but it's important.
40:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
40:46
[SPEAKER_03]: This is not out of a mean spirited.
40:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Our way or the highway, if you're not one of us, then get out of town.
40:53
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
40:54
[SPEAKER_03]: That is not the intention.
40:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Nor is that the spirit that's behind this.
40:59
[SPEAKER_03]: This is why I would suggest someone else gather somewhere.
41:06
[SPEAKER_03]: If you are coming to Redeemer and look, we've had this happen.
41:09
[SPEAKER_03]: We've had this happen multiple times where we have suggested that someone find a different church.
41:18
[SPEAKER_03]: I will say this first.
41:21
[SPEAKER_03]: it is, it is always the last, it's the last thing that we come to.
41:26
[SPEAKER_03]: We try everything else, right?
41:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, I want to work through the persons objections.
41:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to work through their fears.
41:33
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to work through their hesitations.
41:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to give them all of the information that they require about who we are as a church and how we practice things so that they have zero ignorance and zero ambiguity anywhere.
41:45
[SPEAKER_03]: But if it gets to the point where they still have objections at the end of
41:52
[SPEAKER_03]: my goal is not to grow the numeric value of redeemer.
42:00
[SPEAKER_03]: It's to care for the souls that are there.
42:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Primarily those who are members, but that doesn't mean that I don't care for the attenders, also.
42:10
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not that my care only extends to the members.
42:14
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're not a member, then you're going to get the cold shoulder from me.
42:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely not.
42:19
[SPEAKER_03]: It just means that the members
42:23
[SPEAKER_03]: But...
42:24
[SPEAKER_03]: I care for the attendor as well, and I know that what would be best for every attendor at Redeemer is to become a member of a local church, whether that is here or whether that's somewhere else, because I know that's what's good for the soul of the Christian, not just the attendors at Redeemer anywhere, right?
42:47
[SPEAKER_03]: I care more about what would be good for their soul than growing the numbers at Redeemer.
42:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And if the objections that they have are too much or too great or there's too much baggage, whatever it is, if redeemer is not the place where they can become members and thrive and grow together in unity, I want that for them so bad.
43:14
[SPEAKER_03]: I would rather them find it somewhere else than to continue to simply attend it redeemer.
43:20
[SPEAKER_03]: and that's a hard combo sometimes because you know you put a lot of work in a lot of effort in you finally get to the point where you're just like do I don't think this is the place for you
43:29
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
43:30
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I don't think this is, I don't think this is where you need to be.
43:34
[SPEAKER_03]: You obviously don't drive with what we got going here.
43:37
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I'm saying?
43:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's, and that's okay, right?
43:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Redeemer's not going to be for everybody, right?
43:42
[SPEAKER_03]: We're, we're very particular, obviously in the ways that we do things, right?
43:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Not, not every Christian is going to drive with how we, how we do stuff here.
43:49
[SPEAKER_03]: And I get that.
43:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
43:51
[SPEAKER_03]: But,
43:52
[SPEAKER_03]: I want them to be members because I know that's what's going to be good for them.
43:56
[SPEAKER_03]: I would love them to be members at Redeemer, but I want them to be members in general more than I want them to be members at Redeemer.
44:02
[SPEAKER_03]: So there will come a point where you have to out of love.
44:08
[SPEAKER_03]: care for their soul in the way of directing them and encouraging them to find and gather somewhere where they can be members in good conscience, so that they can receive those benefits.
44:18
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's a hard combo for a lot of people to have because they feel either, you know, a pressure to grow the church or they don't want to come across as mean and basically telling someone, you know, to hit the road, find somewhere else.
44:30
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that either of those has to be the motivation.
44:33
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
44:33
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that, unfortunately, that happens with a lot of churches, a lot of churches take the, you're either with us or against us road, which is terrible.
44:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
44:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
44:44
[SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
44:45
[SPEAKER_05]: On us, especially if you're a confessing Christian, I think it were different if that person were leaving the church because of an apostasy reason or a, oh, yeah.
44:55
[SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
44:56
[SPEAKER_05]: Shock off everything.
44:57
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
44:57
[SPEAKER_05]: I think there's a different like, if that, if that Christian is a believing
45:02
[SPEAKER_05]: believing believer.
45:04
[SPEAKER_05]: If that person is a believer, and they, and just the things that you're doing are violating their conscience, they need to go to a place where they have liberty in the conscience, not it absolutely.
45:20
[SPEAKER_05]: 100% not it.
45:22
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, how should I say this, I wouldn't say I'm prison.
45:26
[SPEAKER_05]: That's a tough word, but I would say restricted.
45:29
[SPEAKER_05]: How about that?
45:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
45:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
45:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
45:31
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't want to bind the conscience that, you know, the where it obviously goes against what they believe is biblical.
45:38
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think what's important to in this conversation is if those people have left on good terms, you need to treat them like believers.
45:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
45:47
[SPEAKER_05]: Don't treat the people who leave on wanting to go.
45:53
[SPEAKER_05]: and exercise their liberty of conscience at another congregation, don't treat them like their traders or like their non-believers or that they somehow not their junior varsity Christians.
46:07
[SPEAKER_05]: I think that's the worst thing that a local church can do.
46:11
[SPEAKER_05]: If anything, what you should do is pray for those folks, encourage them, reach out to them, love them still, even though they may not be a part of your local church.
46:22
[SPEAKER_05]: Like the least that you can do is send them a text and say, hey, I'm praying for you guys.
46:27
[SPEAKER_05]: I hope you find another local church.
46:29
[SPEAKER_05]: hopefully that goes well.
46:31
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, here for you, you know.
46:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I can do it.
46:34
[SPEAKER_03]: I've sat.
46:34
[SPEAKER_03]: I've sat with people who, you know, obviously aren't really, aren't really driving with a dreamer.
46:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I've sat with them and search local churches with them.
46:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, hey, let me help you find one.
46:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, tell me, what are you looking for?
46:47
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, obviously, I'm not going to, I'm not going to compromise the essentials of scripture.
46:50
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to send them to like,
46:51
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, Christian science church or something like that, right?
46:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, I wanted to be Orthodox, right?
46:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
47:01
[SPEAKER_03]: But I've sat with with with with with these folks before and pulled up Google and say okay.
47:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what are we looking for?
47:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, let me help you find something.
47:10
[SPEAKER_03]: And I've sent links and sent churches and helped people find somewhere together that's other than my church.
47:18
[SPEAKER_03]: That's, I think that's the spirit in which this kind of fifth and final step needs to be coded in, you know what I'm saying?
47:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
47:30
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I just, I hear horror stories all the time and I've heard horror story.
47:34
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it was like Marcel.
47:36
[SPEAKER_05]: That was a, that was a one big long horror story.
47:39
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah.
47:39
[SPEAKER_05]: Just people leaving because of, I think valid points.
47:44
[SPEAKER_05]: I think the valid points were,
47:47
[SPEAKER_05]: a lot of stuff when it came to they're not being a real good mutual connection between the elders and the congregation and just communication that way and just being honestly just being shepherded like the easiest things of being shepherded in a Marcel adjacent church were not great and so when people are like hey we need better community
48:11
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, and yeah, if you're leaving because of those things, you should not be treated like a trader to the faith.
48:20
[SPEAKER_05]: You're trying to look after the spiritual well-being of your family and the spiritual well-being of yourself and hopefully I mean if you're leaving with a spouse your spouse is well too So yeah, through those things You have to have that kind of demeanor You can't have this demeanor of when everybody leaves her church you just treat him like Their second-rate citizens and after enemies of you like They hate us because they ain't us
48:50
[SPEAKER_05]: You can't have that kind of treatment towards fellow believers because then you're there at that point you're your violating commands from the Lord.
49:00
[SPEAKER_05]: You're not keeping in step.
49:02
[SPEAKER_05]: You're not creating unity within the body.
49:04
[SPEAKER_05]: You're actually creating more divisions.
49:06
[SPEAKER_05]: that's not helpful.
49:08
[SPEAKER_05]: So no, it's not.
49:09
[SPEAKER_05]: No, it's not.
49:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
49:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
49:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
49:11
[SPEAKER_03]: So to recap, you want to encourage that pipeline from attenders to members, right?
49:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Number one, teach about membership.
49:19
[SPEAKER_03]: It's got to come from the pulpit.
49:20
[SPEAKER_03]: They've got to hear about it.
49:21
[SPEAKER_03]: They've got to be educated in it, right?
49:24
[SPEAKER_03]: They should hear why it's important.
49:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Two encourage membership have opportunities for people
49:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Learn about the church, right, and to hop in.
49:37
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't mean that you have to have your doors wide open into membership.
49:41
[SPEAKER_03]: But the doors should be open into the foyer.
49:43
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I'm saying?
49:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Or into the narthx for my Presbyterian brothers and sisters.
49:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Let them in, right?
49:49
[SPEAKER_03]: So that they can learn, right?
49:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Make encourage membership.
49:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Number three, make membership a requirement for serving, right?
49:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Narrow that door a little bit.
49:58
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you'd find that that helps.
50:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Number four, press into the attenders' objections.
50:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't be afraid of them.
50:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Press into them.
50:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't let them sit.
50:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't let them grow stagnant.
50:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk through these things.
50:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's work through these things together.
50:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And if all of those fail, and the membership is still something that is not desired, then encouraged gathering elsewhere and help them find that place.
50:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Because, yeah, we want them to have a spot and to be in a church where they can be members and experience that beauty and that grace and that encouragement and all the things that come with it.
50:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Because it's good.
50:35
[SPEAKER_03]: It's biblical and it's wonderful.
50:36
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's something that we should all want for our brothers and sisters in Christ.
50:40
[SPEAKER_03]: So That is what we have to say on that topic and yeah, I hope that that was encouraging.
50:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Hope that you guys Appreciateed some of those talking points, but Jack my friend We've got some Patreon to get to and want you to get us out of here
50:59
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