Latest / The Love Drive with Shaun Galanos / Peter Pan, grief, and the men who won't grow up with Laura Griffiths

Transcript

Peter Pan, grief, and the men who won't grow up with Laura Griffiths · The Love Drive with Shaun Galanos

• 0:00
  Can I show the truth about why there weren't flirty vibes
• 0:02
  between us? I felt you performing.
• 0:06
  I was like, is this person acting with me?
• 0:10
  You were so charming and I almost didn't trust that.
• 0:28
  OK, my love lies. I am humped.
• 0:32
  About today's episode. Our guest is Laura Griffiths.
• 0:36
  She is a somatic therapist. She's also a sex and
• 0:39
  relationship coach. Happens to also be a dear, dear
• 0:43
  friend of mine. Probably one of my favorite
• 0:45
  people in Montreal. We met on Hinge last year and
• 0:50
  our relationship did not progress romantically, but we
• 0:53
  have become really dear friends and I'm super, super grateful
• 0:57
  for her presence and her wisdom. And this is exactly the kind of
• 1:00
  conversations that I want to be having with guests on the Love
• 1:04
  Drive podcast. That being conversations that
• 1:06
  are intimate, that are touching, that are vulnerable, that are
• 1:08
  funny, that are sweet, and that touch on a whole bunch of
• 1:12
  different subjects. And this is one of those
• 1:14
  conversations. So if you felt touched by this
• 1:17
  episode in any way, shape or form, please share it with
• 1:20
  someone. You know, say like, hey, I just
• 1:22
  heard this really great episode. I think you would love it
• 1:24
  because I think word of mouth is how we're going to get this
• 1:26
  rocket ship off the ground. So here is what we get into in
• 1:31
  this podcast episode. How we met on Hinge and became
• 1:33
  friends instead. The idea of whether men and
• 1:36
  women can actually truly be friends.
• 1:39
  The Peter Pan archetype and men being stuck in Neverland,
• 1:42
  including myself. The missing initiation into
• 1:45
  manhood that boys and teens just don't have right?
• 1:48
  Like positive role models. How do you initiate teens into
• 1:52
  manhood? What does it mean to be a man?
• 1:53
  We touch on Laura's take on the manosphere.
• 1:56
  Also, grief and arrows. Erotic energy, being able to
• 2:00
  live in the same room. And then we of course, we sort
• 2:05
  of dissect our first date, our first Hinge date.
• 2:08
  Laura shares with me and others the mask of charm and seduction
• 2:12
  that I wear on 1st dates. Why powerful and embodied women
• 2:16
  scare the shit out of me. And this is just a really,
• 2:19
  really fun and sweet and tender episode and I hope you love it.
• 2:22
  I bring you Laura Griffiths. My name is Sean Galinos and this
• 2:25
  is the Love drive. I really love it when Sean gives
• 2:29
  me advice. I feel so reflected and mirrored
• 2:33
  back. I feel so grounded in my body.
• 2:36
  There's something about the way that you're just like, Laura,
• 2:39
  what are you doing? And I'm like, Oh yeah, what am I
• 2:43
  doing actually? Music to my ears when anybody
• 2:46
  says that they love it when I give them advice, I mean, I'm in
• 2:48
  the right line of work, you know?
• 2:50
  You really are. You do it very well.
• 2:52
  And I'm surprised actually, because I don't take advice from
• 2:55
  a lot of people. I'm a very stubborn person.
• 2:58
  What is it about me giving advice that works for you?
• 3:00
  I think you have a confidence and a certainty about yourself
• 3:04
  which my relationship to men is often like.
• 3:09
  I will detect the bullshit meter, you know, like what's
• 3:12
  the, what's the bullshit meter that they have?
• 3:14
  But I feel your genuine care is there and your genuine desire to
• 3:19
  help and support. And it's not always, I mean, it
• 3:23
  has happened where it's like to your advantage, but it feels
• 3:27
  like, you know, like that giving me advice or telling me
• 3:32
  something would be to your benefit.
• 3:33
  But yeah, when I don't feel my body respond to a man giving me
• 3:40
  advice, that's my cue that I'm there's something off.
• 3:44
  OK, cool. Yeah, how's that for you to
• 3:46
  hear? It's great.
• 3:47
  I mean, I tried not to, you know, advise people in a way in
• 3:51
  which it will benefit me, like for my sake.
• 3:56
  But does it ever just feel good to give advice?
• 3:59
  Not that the advice that you're giving is to your benefit, but
• 4:02
  just because it feels good and it's something that you need to
• 4:04
  feel in the moment. You need to feel like, oh, I'm
• 4:07
  going to help this person and that's going to feel good to me.
• 4:10
  I think that when you can give advice from a place where you
• 4:14
  take care of yourself, you know yourself, you're able to deliver
• 4:18
  the goods from a place of having a cup that's filled enough to be
• 4:23
  able to do that. I think that's my, my gauge with
• 4:26
  people is like. Where is it coming from?
• 4:30
  Yeah, yeah. Also, I think the way I give
• 4:33
  advice is that it is truly with an open hand and if you don't
• 4:37
  take it I'm like that's fine. Yeah.
• 4:39
  You have your life. I have my life.
• 4:41
  Yeah, detachment is important, being detached on the giver
• 4:46
  side. Well, otherwise it's not really
• 4:48
  advice, it's more like a command.
• 4:49
  Well, sometimes I like that too all.
• 4:51
  Right, Laura Griffiths, welcome to the Love Drive podcast.
• 4:59
  Thank you, it's so good to be here.
• 5:01
  Really excited to chat with you before we jump into how we know
• 5:04
  each other because we do know each other.
• 5:07
  Will you introduce yourself briefly?
• 5:09
  Yeah, my name is Laura Griffiths and I am a somatic therapist and
• 5:15
  sex and relationship coach. I work with couples, women, men
• 5:19
  who are looking to dive into their body and deal with rupture
• 5:24
  and repair in ways that are fulfilling and connecting in
• 5:27
  their relationships. Cool.
• 5:29
  Yeah. And you live in Montreal?
• 5:32
  I live in Montreal. I do.
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  Despite maybe which is which is what.
• 5:37
  Which is where we we know each other from, but.
• 5:40
  Which is where we know each other from, yeah.
• 5:42
  Yeah, I just want to give love to Montreal right now because I
• 5:45
  have been in a little bit of a conflicted state with it since
• 5:48
  I've known you, so we're just going to be good.
• 5:51
  Well, I love I love Montreal and always have.
• 5:54
  I think it's like my one true love.
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  Oh, how come? I think it's a really warm city
• 6:00
  and I love speaking French. I love French culture.
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  I love French Canadian culture. Montreal is vibrant.
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  It's like there's a lot going on.
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  Everybody. You don't know what anybody's
• 6:11
  doing. They're all doing all sorts of
• 6:12
  different fun things. There's a lot of creativity.
• 6:15
  It's like a fun queer place. It's not pretentious.
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  Like it's very accessible. It helps if you speak French.
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  I like how many public services the city provides for its
• 6:28
  citizens. Free festivals, ice skating
• 6:32
  rinks. Like you don't need a lot of
• 6:34
  money to have fun in Montreal. Yeah, there's a lot of parks.
• 6:39
  Yeah, a lot of greenery for for a.
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  City. For an urban place, yeah.
• 6:44
  Yeah, Montreal loves you, Sean. And Montreal loves me.
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  Yeah, I'll be back. I went on a date yesterday,
• 6:50
  actually this with a, with a woman.
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  And I was like, Oh yeah, Montreal best city in the world.
• 6:54
  She was like, yeah, she had a different experience.
• 6:59
  She was like, yeah, she had a an ex, a traumatic ex that was from
• 7:04
  Montreal. Yeah, I have those here.
• 7:07
  So I feel like I was like having to dig myself out, like I was
• 7:10
  already on, you know, shaky grounds just from the virtue of
• 7:14
  being from Montreal. Yeah, sometimes we just need to
• 7:16
  step it back. But it's just like, you know,
• 7:19
  San Francisco, the Bay, where you are now.
• 7:22
  I have so much love for this place and have missed it
• 7:26
  tremendously but also get very afraid when I'm there because of
• 7:30
  my ex's SO. Well, I've lived in a lot of
• 7:35
  different places and there are pros and cons to all of them.
• 7:38
  I was looking for the perfect place and it doesn't exist.
• 7:42
  So then you hop around. Yeah, but then also then you
• 7:44
  don't nest and ground which can be, which is can be fun for, you
• 7:49
  know, a period of time. OK, so we met.
• 7:52
  Are you open to sharing the story?
• 7:54
  Yes, for a moment I had to remember.
• 7:57
  We met on Hinge. We did, we met on Hinge.
• 8:01
  I thought you had a cute date. Yeah, we had a very cute date.
• 8:04
  You had planned something for us, which was unusual.
• 8:09
  And I'm not a big online, you know, apps girl.
• 8:13
  I usually meet a few people and then decide this isn't for me.
• 8:17
  But you had gone above and beyond and planned like a a
• 8:22
  meditation date for us to go to to practice meditation at this
• 8:27
  beautiful studio. Yeah.
• 8:28
  And I was surprised by that. So I brought some cacao to
• 8:32
  share, which is always an offering that I like to bring on
• 8:35
  dates. Yeah.
• 8:37
  Would you like to take a sip of this beverage?
• 8:40
  Yeah, this lovely chocolate, yeah.
• 8:43
  What did you think of me? After the meditation we went to
• 8:49
  and and like sort of walked around and found a place to have
• 8:51
  dinner. Yeah.
• 8:52
  And then we had dinner and it was like raining and we were
• 8:55
  outside on the patio huddling, trying to stay dry.
• 8:58
  Yeah, it was so cute. It was cute and the food was
• 9:01
  great, which by the way, I think is is not the last time we we
• 9:05
  saw each other. We saw each other at that
• 9:07
  restaurant for your birthday and.
• 9:09
  We got to be nostalgic then, too.
• 9:11
  We. Did Now what do I think of you?
• 9:14
  Very warm, very nurturing, giving Montreal vibes actually.
• 9:19
  Yeah. Friendly.
• 9:21
  Playful, I found you like I guess, attuned and present.
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  Yeah, you said afterward that there were no flirty vibes, and
• 9:33
  that was kind of upsetting to me, 'cause I'm like, come on,
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  how quickly do you expect to get flirty vibes?
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  Like on a date immediately OK, really.
• 9:44
  Like flirty miles are either there or they're not.
• 9:47
  Yeah, yeah. It's, it's like it's from the
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  get go or I mean, I think it takes no, I mean, I think that's
• 9:53
  fair. I think it takes a little, it
• 9:54
  can take a little while. Yeah, it takes a while.
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  I think I have a pattern of like putting somebody in a bucket in
• 10:00
  a yes or no bucket like really quickly.
• 10:02
  Yeah, interested. For romantic or not.
• 10:07
  And then these days I'm trying to actually spend more time in
• 10:10
  the, OK, let's see what happens. Even if the flirty vibes aren't
• 10:13
  there. Although I will tell you, I have
• 10:14
  tried going on the multiple dates, third day, like 2-3, four
• 10:19
  dates. Even though the flirty vibes
• 10:20
  aren't there or the flirty vibes are a little, they're off and
• 10:23
  they it never kind of crystallizes into something.
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  More. Like I feel like I have, I have
• 10:29
  a pretty good sense of whether this is someone that I'm going
• 10:32
  to want to continue to know in like a romantic way or sexual
• 10:36
  way pretty soon after meeting them.
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  And you know, given how much you're dating, do you get flirty
• 10:43
  vibes with people often? Given how much I'm dating.
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  Like what's your ratio? Oh 40 to not 40 vibes.
• 10:51
  Yeah, like within because you say, you know, I assess this
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  very quickly. So it sounds like you get a, you
• 10:59
  get a sense where you put people in a box.
• 11:02
  Maybe flirty vibes 1/3 of the time, but just 'cause there are
• 11:05
  flirty vibes doesn't mean that there's longevity there or that
• 11:08
  we're aligned in other ways that you can flirty with someone,
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  whether it's like, you know, maybe it's just for like a one
• 11:14
  night stand or you know, some sort of sexual encounter or
• 11:19
  you're not aligned for other reasons.
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  Is flirty vibes sexual for you? Is flirty vibes the indicator
• 11:28
  that there's sexual chemistry? Maybe.
• 11:32
  Really, 'cause I, I flirt with people all the time.
• 11:36
  Yeah, no, I I feel like we're more flirty now.
• 11:38
  Yes, I think once the once there's like the pressure is
• 11:42
  gone to like maybe well, you know, if I, I think if I'm being
• 11:48
  truly honest, a woman like you is probably a little scary to
• 11:52
  me. We've talked about this, yeah.
• 11:55
  I'm curious if you want to share more about that.
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  What is a woman like me 'cause there are so many, right?
• 12:04
  So many women like you. Yeah, there are.
• 12:07
  There are a lot of women out there.
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  I might not flirt immediately with you on a first date but
• 12:11
  want to later. Yeah, I think this is hard to
• 12:16
  answer. What if you were just radically
• 12:19
  honest? A woman like you requires me to
• 12:23
  show up in ways that I'm not quite ready to or comfortable
• 12:26
  doing. And if you did, what would that
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  look like? I mean, if I did, I would have
• 12:34
  to experience maybe being like having somebody hold me more
• 12:39
  accountable, showing up with more integrity.
• 12:42
  I'd have to maybe like lower the mask.
• 12:47
  I'd have to be like significantly more vulnerable.
• 12:50
  And that's scary. And it's scary.
• 12:53
  It's so scary. And for men who do you know, so
• 12:58
  much performative, it's, I want to say French things, but they
• 13:01
  come. To say French things you're.
• 13:04
  You're like Yvonne Val de la Von, like they come forth with a
• 13:09
  performative nature to feel, you know, loved, accepted belonging.
• 13:13
  And can I share the truth about why there weren't flirty vibes
• 13:17
  between us? Because I I felt you performing.
• 13:20
  I was like, is this person acting with me?
• 13:24
  Like you were so charming and I almost didn't trust that.
• 13:28
  And so maybe that was on me. But you were so charming and so
• 13:32
  alive. And I was like, who am I meeting
• 13:34
  here? And that's why after that first
• 13:37
  date and we didn't end up meeting again, and you reached
• 13:41
  out to me about a year later, I didn't really reply to you.
• 13:44
  Wait, we we did. We ran into each other at the
• 13:46
  park when you were with your boyfriend.
• 13:49
  Oh yeah, that's true. And you got really flustered
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  because not only was I there, you so also somebody else that
• 13:54
  you've been on dates with was there.
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  I was at a park and I'm with my boyfriend who is a very flirty
• 14:01
  person and I'm always. Kind of like your boyfriend.
• 14:04
  He's wonderful, but he's like, Laura, we're going to be going
• 14:09
  to this thing and you might end up seeing like some people that
• 14:12
  I have crushes on. And I was like, OK, that's fine,
• 14:16
  thanks for letting me know. And then it turned out that it
• 14:18
  was like all the people, like people from San Francisco, I ran
• 14:21
  into, ran into you and then to other people, a guy I was going
• 14:25
  on a date with the next week. It was just really funny and put
• 14:28
  me in that place of, oh, I'm being I'm getting caught here.
• 14:33
  Yeah, I didn't know what was happening there for you, but
• 14:37
  I've done some work around this mask.
• 14:39
  Like I feel like the mask of seduction and charm I wear to
• 14:45
  prevent people from seeing the, like, sad little kind of wounded
• 14:49
  boy that's underneath that. I don't know that I can lead
• 14:53
  with that, you know, 'cause that that feels threatening because
• 14:57
  you don't know how it will be received, especially with a new
• 15:00
  person. So who's the person you show up
• 15:03
  with on a date? Like, who's the part of you that
• 15:06
  shows up on a date? Because I hear that there's two
• 15:09
  extremes. There's the little boy who's
• 15:11
  tender and vulnerable. And then there's the hey, I'm
• 15:16
  here and you're on a date with Sean Galanos.
• 15:18
  Yeah, yeah, well, not the little boy.
• 15:24
  Yeah. Not the little boy.
• 15:26
  I think it takes a little while. It's interesting.
• 15:28
  I've I've met a lot of friends through dating apps or through
• 15:31
  like we'll go on a date and then we'll realize that we're
• 15:34
  probably, you know, more aligned as friends.
• 15:37
  And I have a new friend that this happened.
• 15:39
  We were set up and after four or five dates, you know, kind of
• 15:43
  both realize that the chemistry wasn't there.
• 15:46
  But again, she's another woman like you.
• 15:48
  She's actually another she's a somatic therapist.
• 15:53
  I stay away, I stay away. I.
• 15:55
  I can't, I don't want to be naked in front of a, a somatic
• 15:58
  therapist, you know, like it's, it's too scary.
• 16:01
  Is it a power dynamic thing? Is that the assumption that
• 16:03
  there's more leverage? And just to be clear, a lot of
• 16:07
  people don't know what somatic therapists are.
• 16:09
  As a body based practitioner, maybe works with the body to
• 16:12
  move through trauma and. Well, I feel like I would have
• 16:15
  less leverage. OK.
• 16:17
  I want more leverage. Yeah.
• 16:20
  And so if I date women who are are maybe less in their body and
• 16:25
  in their like womanhood and their femininity and their
• 16:28
  power, then I have more power and I can show up lazier or with
• 16:37
  less integrity. I'm just being fully honest with
• 16:39
  you because I love, you know, I love this is what I love.
• 16:41
  I love this about you. Yeah, and I love that you're
• 16:44
  naming this because you're saying that what determines a
• 16:49
  woman that is powerful to you or that you're kind of afraid of as
• 16:53
  a woman who's in her body? And in her power.
• 16:56
  And in her power. And what does that feel like for
• 16:58
  you when you're in front of that kind of woman?
• 17:02
  Well, it feels threatening and it feels like you can see
• 17:04
  through me. That's not something that I'm
• 17:08
  comfortable with. Yeah, I can't see through you.
• 17:11
  Unless you saw that there was a mask on our first date.
• 17:15
  Yeah. Well, is that seeing through
• 17:16
  you, or is that seeing the mask? You can see through my defenses
• 17:20
  and, and that I don't like, I've built these up, you know, over
• 17:25
  my lifetime to protect me and. They're necessary and they're
• 17:29
  important, but I've always wondered with you, you know,
• 17:31
  what is the payoff and then what's the drawback?
• 17:37
  Like what's the cost for you with you?
• 17:41
  I'm getting sad because the cost is like, you know, loneliness
• 17:46
  and not being seen, not being held and going through life on
• 17:51
  my own. Yeah, yeah, I feel your heart
• 17:54
  and I love it and I thank you for nailing that.
• 17:58
  How is it for you to just feel into your heart in this moment
• 18:01
  and share that? There's a part of me that's
• 18:03
  aware that this is going to be like on the Internet forever,
• 18:07
  you know? But that was very beautiful and
• 18:10
  I don't want to skip the moment. And I think these moments are so
• 18:14
  important. And it's the place where the
• 18:18
  connection between people actually starts to have a
• 18:21
  circuitry, you know, in relationship.
• 18:25
  I think the circuitry is that like reciprocity, that feeling
• 18:29
  of, oh, I feel you, you feel me. We can deepen in together and we
• 18:34
  can do that in a way that's both safe, but also where there's a
• 18:37
  little bit of tension. And the tension is where that
• 18:41
  spiciness lives. And I really spend most of my
• 18:46
  time in relationships trying to find that place, whether it's in
• 18:50
  business and, you know, community with my partner,
• 18:55
  'cause I'm, I love safety, but I also feel like the rocking of
• 19:00
  the boat and like going a little bit deeper is where the fun
• 19:04
  lives. You're totally right.
• 19:07
  You're totally right. And I think that's a really hard
• 19:11
  place for a lot of people to go. You know, we're also taught not
• 19:14
  to rock the boat, you know, and I think I was raised in a family
• 19:19
  where, like, we protect the family.
• 19:21
  We don't talk about our dysfunctions.
• 19:24
  And this sort of deep relational connection between humans
• 19:29
  requires opening up and being vulnerable and, like, sharing
• 19:32
  secrets and being willing to ruffle feathers.
• 19:35
  And that requires like, an ability to repair.
• 19:41
  It requires courage, faith that you're gonna be OK, that you're
• 19:46
  not gonna like, shut down or get re traumatized.
• 19:49
  It requires loving humans on the other side that can hold you.
• 19:54
  That's a lot to ask for. You know, most people don't
• 19:57
  really have all of those elements in order to make this a
• 20:00
  viable practice. I'm grateful that I have you in
• 20:03
  my life. We can like you know.
• 20:06
  Yeah. Experience the turbulent waters.
• 20:10
  And it's interesting when you say waters, you know, because
• 20:14
  that is the place where you know, the feminine lives.
• 20:18
  It's like that feminine essence, that principle you think of like
• 20:22
  deep Mother Earth principles, these elemental, the elemental
• 20:27
  nature that you know, the male body can circulate through them.
• 20:30
  And we are meant to go into the deep waters together.
• 20:34
  And like, it's beautiful to witness the waters come out of
• 20:37
  your face. You know, the grief that's there
• 20:39
  is a portal to the love that you're longing to express,
• 20:44
  experience and be with. And that love is so palpable.
• 20:49
  When I'm with you, I feel that love and I want to love you.
• 20:54
  And it's beautiful to be able to share that inside of our
• 20:57
  friendship that is platonic. And having platonic dynamics
• 21:03
  really help people enter into levels of intimacy that are not
• 21:07
  as scary, that are almost like a little bit of practice for the
• 21:13
  romantic. If you're not watching the
• 21:16
  video, you should, because you know you can watch me being
• 21:20
  touched by Laura. Yeah, I'm feeling very tender.
• 21:23
  As you were talking about the the feminine waters, what was
• 21:27
  coming up for me was like, Oh my God, I love Laura so much.
• 21:32
  That's what the tears were like. A really clean love for you and
• 21:38
  gratitude that we got to spend so much time, you know,
• 21:42
  deepening our friendship this year.
• 21:44
  I mean, so much. We spent some time deepening our
• 21:46
  friendship. It was a lot though.
• 21:49
  It was a lot. In a short amount of time.
• 21:52
  There was a lot there was, yeah, there was lots of really funny,
• 21:55
  funny moments. But I mean, you adopted me for
• 21:57
  Christmas. Yeah, your family.
• 22:00
  Welcome to it. Sean was our sweet companion,
• 22:04
  our sweet guest. We fed him.
• 22:05
  We loved him. We we watched.
• 22:08
  The rings together, yeah, that's.
• 22:11
  So sweet. We had dumplings, we had Chinese
• 22:14
  food. So good.
• 22:15
  Yeah. And I agree that platonic love
• 22:20
  can be a playground and it's less threatening, you know, like
• 22:25
  a, a rupture in our, in our relationship is going to be less
• 22:29
  threatening than if you and I were a couple.
• 22:32
  I feel like we get to bounce back a little bit quicker.
• 22:35
  Maybe it doesn't touch our like core wounds as much, but it's
• 22:40
  it's a fertile training ground. For.
• 22:42
  Romantic Relationships. And I I see a lot of men wanting
• 22:48
  that and I have thoughts about polyamorous relationships and
• 22:54
  non monogamous ethical non monogamy thoughts.
• 22:58
  I mean based on my own personal experience inside of it and and
• 23:02
  then also. Thoughts and feelings?
• 23:06
  Yeah, I'm like censor yourself. But seeing a lot of a lot of men
• 23:13
  really wanting connection with women and really wanting
• 23:17
  deepening and maybe touch, but don't necessarily want romantic
• 23:22
  relationships. And they don't know that there
• 23:23
  is an array or a echelon of possibility.
• 23:28
  And because there's so much performative action inside of
• 23:32
  male desire or there can be, being able to ask for that is a
• 23:38
  very tender thing to come into and ask for the array of what
• 23:44
  intimacy might look like or even feel into what the desire is or
• 23:48
  what that might look like. So on dates you know, do you get
• 23:52
  to ask for the more tender in between places?
• 23:57
  I mean, I wouldn't ask for that on dates.
• 24:00
  Why not? Well, I think because it's, it's
• 24:03
  not an established relationship at that point.
• 24:07
  But what this is bringing up for me is when people say, oh, can
• 24:11
  men and women be friends? Our relationship is a prime
• 24:14
  example of how men and women can be friends.
• 24:18
  And not only that, what are the benefits of a male female
• 24:22
  friendship that's platonic? Yeah, I talk about this a lot
• 24:26
  with my male friends. What do you say?
• 24:30
  I've worked really intentionally in developing steady platonic
• 24:35
  relationships. I have worked with my female
• 24:39
  friends to be able to have safety inside of me, being
• 24:43
  friends with their husbands. You know, these long term
• 24:45
  relationships because there's so much underlying nuance between
• 24:48
  women and scarcity, protection, defensiveness and securities
• 24:54
  that are there. And then normalizing attraction
• 24:58
  has been something, you know, as soon as we name the thing and
• 25:03
  allow it to exist, it stops being a tension or kink in the
• 25:07
  field and it can breathe and then become something different.
• 25:12
  Like saying yeah, your husband's fucking hot.
• 25:17
  Yeah. If he wasn't your husband, I
• 25:20
  would totally fuck him. No, I don't say that because
• 25:23
  it's not true. It could be true.
• 25:27
  It could be true, but I think that we so quickly go from
• 25:30
  attraction to I want to fuck and we don't let the space of just
• 25:35
  being in desire without it having to be an ejaculatory
• 25:39
  opportunity. Just being like, no, I desire.
• 25:42
  Like I think that's beautiful. And our relationship with beauty
• 25:46
  is really part of that exchange. So I love surrounding myself
• 25:51
  with men, my male friends, they anchor me, you other buds of
• 25:56
  mine, they really ground me in my capacity to be in a more
• 26:01
  softened place. I'm a, I'm a pretty independent,
• 26:05
  sometimes over functioning woman.
• 26:06
  And so having strong men around me helps me feel myself deepen
• 26:11
  in, get a little bit more containment for all that I'm
• 26:16
  managing or working through or wanting to touch.
• 26:18
  And we also get to talk about their relationships with their
• 26:21
  partners. And I am such an advocate for
• 26:24
  their partners, for their companions.
• 26:26
  I'm like, I want your love to be strong and healthy and like,
• 26:31
  let's talk about it. And I will happily put them in
• 26:35
  their place. Or you're not, you know, tough
• 26:40
  love, baby. Will you put me?
• 26:41
  Have you put me in my place? I think that there was maybe one
• 26:46
  time, and I think it was around the holidays where you were
• 26:49
  being a little bit in your mask. I don't know if it's
• 26:53
  performative, but when you're, when you're masking, when you're
• 26:55
  just being a little bit more, I would call it maybe
• 26:58
  overconfident. Yeah.
• 26:59
  And something about you being that way really annoyed me in
• 27:04
  that moment. Because I know.
• 27:08
  Because I know the alternative and it feels so good when you're
• 27:12
  in that space of just not feeling like you need to protect
• 27:15
  yourself. And I get a little bit like, why
• 27:17
  is it being like that? And so I think I did like, I
• 27:21
  snapped at you. I think I did a little like,
• 27:24
  like, no, I don't remember what the context was, but it was
• 27:27
  definitely a somatic response on my part of just wanting to be a
• 27:32
  certain way in dynamic with you and kind of like not wanting
• 27:38
  otherwise. It just sounds like you wanted
• 27:41
  more of like an undefended Chun, which I think is what I want for
• 27:47
  most of my relationships too. I get really frustrated when
• 27:50
  someone is obviously not well and not able to share why
• 27:55
  they're not well or don't feel safe sharing or don't have the
• 27:58
  language to share it. It makes me sad because I would
• 28:02
  love to be there to support them.
• 28:03
  Ultimately, I want to know my friends in a deeper capacity.
• 28:07
  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you do a great
• 28:10
  job at opening up and being in your vulnerability.
• 28:13
  And I think I saw that over the summer was, you know, you were
• 28:17
  going through such big moments, you know it.
• 28:22
  Was impossible for me to mask like I was.
• 28:25
  I don't know if destroyed was the right word, but I was.
• 28:28
  Demuni is what I is the word I'm, you know, I had no
• 28:31
  defenses. That was defenseless.
• 28:33
  But in that you were so strong. I think there's a difference
• 28:37
  between being defenseless and being alone in it and hiding
• 28:43
  from the world's. And you didn't do that.
• 28:47
  You kept showing up and you kept reaching out.
• 28:51
  And that is a quality of strength that I think a lot of
• 28:54
  people don't know that they have or want to be able to have.
• 28:59
  So the resiliency is being built in those moments of saying,
• 29:02
  like, I'm hurt and I'm kind of distraught here, but I am going
• 29:07
  to be loved. I'm going to be surrounded by
• 29:10
  people. And you let yourself.
• 29:12
  And that was, I think it was one of the most beautiful acts of
• 29:17
  healthy masculinity. So yeah.
• 29:21
  I didn't hide this time. You know, when my dad died a
• 29:24
  couple years ago, I hid for like 6 months.
• 29:28
  And that's, you know, understandable, I think.
• 29:30
  But yeah, this, this like fall, something else happened.
• 29:34
  You know, there was like a, a short romance that triggered
• 29:36
  this like deep childhood wound. I mean, I cried for two months
• 29:41
  every day, you know, and then Roger passed away during that
• 29:44
  time. And so it was like, I cannot
• 29:46
  hide from this anymore. Like it's, I've been hiding
• 29:49
  from, you know, childhood pain for my whole life and I don't
• 29:52
  want to anymore. And I can see how it holds me
• 29:55
  back, right? Do you think that we need those
• 29:58
  moments? I think that that kind of
• 30:00
  descent is different for female bodied people.
• 30:05
  But I wonder for you, do you think you needed that kind of
• 30:08
  encounter with loss and grief to come to this place, of
• 30:13
  experiencing your vulnerability within its strength?
• 30:16
  I don't know. Yeah, I I mean, I think it had
• 30:19
  to be pretty drastic. Mm.
• 30:21
  Hmm. You know, And I had to hit some
• 30:23
  sort of, like, emotional rock bottom where I just, like,
• 30:25
  couldn't keep showing up, you know, wearing a suit of armor.
• 30:30
  Yeah. Because that's incredibly
• 30:32
  isolating. What did that change for you and
• 30:35
  how you're living your life now? The only thing that's coming up
• 30:38
  is that like, I'm way less trying to control everything
• 30:41
  right now. Virgo.
• 30:45
  How I'm showing up, how other people perceive me, like, you
• 30:49
  know, the best whatever. I'm always looking for the best
• 30:51
  whatever. And I've just like kind of
• 30:52
  stopped looking for the best whatever.
• 30:54
  And just like, oh, this is, this is the thing, you know, these
• 30:57
  are the plans I've committed to. This is the thing that I've
• 31:00
  decided to do. Like whatever, it'll be great.
• 31:02
  Or maybe it'll also I can extend that to myself.
• 31:04
  Like, oh, I'm showing up like this, it'll be great.
• 31:06
  It's fine. I don't have to show up any
• 31:07
  other way. I don't have to be more, you
• 31:10
  know, or like funnier or more charismatic or more whatever.
• 31:14
  Yeah. Just me on my own is going to be
• 31:16
  OK. That's a big thing and I've
• 31:20
  heard you in those places of looking for the best thing and.
• 31:24
  Exhausting, by the way, The best thing was spending Christmas
• 31:27
  with you guys, that was. Instead of the orgy or the
• 31:32
  ecstatic ecstatic dense orgy. Yeah, that's right.
• 31:37
  There was an ecstatic orgy or something and I was torn between
• 31:40
  doing that and and what? Just hanging with you guys.
• 31:43
  Uh huh. It was all yeah, it was my
• 31:45
  birthday. I was doing something and I have
• 31:47
  so much trouble telling somebody to choose me when there's an
• 31:53
  ecstatic event happening. You did though you.
• 31:57
  Did I did. You did.
• 31:58
  I said, look, Laura, I need help.
• 32:00
  OK, So I called Laura because I was struggling and sometimes I
• 32:04
  need people to tell me what to do.
• 32:05
  And I go, here's my dilemma. And I was either going to this
• 32:08
  ecstatic orgy or having dinner with you and and spending the
• 32:13
  weekend in the city. Yeah.
• 32:15
  And, and like meeting up for for a brief period of time and
• 32:18
  you're just like, Sean, don't be stupid.
• 32:20
  You need to stay in the city and spend time with me and come to
• 32:23
  my birthday dinner or whatever. Yeah, it was like a solstice
• 32:25
  party. Yeah.
• 32:27
  Oh, it was the solstice thing. Yeah.
• 32:29
  You, by the way, everybody, Laura is a phenomenal ritualist.
• 32:33
  Phenomenal. Even though I walked out of one
• 32:37
  of your workshops? You're like, this is too much,
• 32:41
  too fast. We're not diving into these
• 32:43
  waters. It's.
• 32:44
  Like 9:00 AM. It was too much for me.
• 32:47
  Yeah, I saw you just like we were by the lake doing some
• 32:50
  beginning of a ritual and at a beautiful festival called Jam
• 32:55
  House Camp. And you, I saw you look and
• 32:58
  sense what was happening and just being like, no.
• 33:01
  And later you said I needed to play.
• 33:03
  I was like, great. It's so here's The funny thing
• 33:06
  about that whole arc, that whole story.
• 33:08
  Well, first of all, Laura told me not to go to the orgy and I
• 33:11
  didn't. And I'm so glad that I didn't.
• 33:13
  And so sometimes I just need friends to say, hey, don't be
• 33:16
  stupid, you know, just do this. And now I think I'm able to do
• 33:19
  it a little bit more on my own, which is so great.
• 33:21
  Like I'm, it drives me crazy, my desire to optimize.
• 33:25
  I'm getting to like, loosen my grip on life a little bit and it
• 33:28
  feels so, so good. But Laura and I hadn't seen each
• 33:31
  other since last year and I found out that she was going to
• 33:36
  be leading some workshops and rituals at this three day camp
• 33:40
  out, which by the way, was one of Roger's last outings.
• 33:44
  And we we got to like bring him on a three day camping trip and
• 33:47
  he was like the star of the show and everybody absolutely adored
• 33:50
  him. And it was really, really
• 33:52
  special. It was so special.
• 33:54
  But anyways, I saw that Laura was on the schedule and I didn't
• 33:57
  know anybody at this festival except for you.
• 34:00
  And I barely knew your boyfriend Devlin, but some for some
• 34:03
  reason, he really knew who I was, which is not.
• 34:05
  This is a phenomenon that exists in my life where people like are
• 34:08
  friends with me before I even know them.
• 34:14
  We're friends. Like, I don't know who you are,
• 34:15
  but both you and Devlin had a bunch of experiences at this
• 34:20
  festival. And I even messaged you before
• 34:22
  and I said, hey, I'm going to the Jam house.
• 34:24
  It'd be so great to connect. And I was legitimately excited
• 34:29
  to spend time with you and to see you.
• 34:31
  And I think your response was like, yeah, if we see each
• 34:33
  other, that'll be cool. It was like a very cool, like,
• 34:37
  yeah, maybe, bro, like if I'm around, I guess.
• 34:41
  But the funniest thing is that, like, I was legitimately excited
• 34:44
  to see you lead and to experience your work and your
• 34:48
  magic. And when it came time to go, I
• 34:52
  was like, yay, Laura's do anything.
• 34:54
  I showed up and I was like, Oh no, this is not the space that I
• 34:59
  want to be in. I want to be playing.
• 35:01
  I want to be playful. I felt like I wanted to be a
• 35:03
  child. And your ritual was like, you
• 35:06
  know, I think, what was it? It was actually the opening of
• 35:11
  the space that I was holding, which was the creation cave, and
• 35:14
  so it was a big opening ceremony.
• 35:16
  It was probably not the thing, but there are a lot of other
• 35:18
  events that you were invited to that I think would have changed
• 35:23
  your life when you. Didn't come the the the crazy
• 35:26
  thing is that I was like so pumped to experience you and
• 35:30
  then didn't do any of the things except for the one grief ritual
• 35:33
  that you and Devlin were were leading.
• 35:35
  Oh, yeah, Which is mostly Devlin.
• 35:37
  Who's a Devlin? Yeah.
• 35:40
  But so like, you know, I was like claimed being so excited
• 35:44
  about your work. And then in the moment, I
• 35:46
  decided, oh, this is actually not the right thing for me,
• 35:48
  which is really difficult because I knew that there was
• 35:51
  maybe a part of view that would feel disappointed.
• 35:55
  And by the way, walking out of someone's thing is quite
• 36:00
  possibly the hardest thing that you can ever do.
• 36:03
  But I also want to be the kind of person where if this doesn't
• 36:07
  feel right and I need to leave, I want to be able to leave.
• 36:10
  I want to be able to have my own back and people stay in things
• 36:14
  that aren't right for them. I'm not talking about like a
• 36:16
  workshop. I'm talking about like bad
• 36:18
  traumatic relationships. And it's hard to choose yourself
• 36:22
  in that moment. And also like leaving a workshop
• 36:25
  where there's like other people there.
• 36:26
  Like people are looking at you going like, are you literally
• 36:29
  like just getting up? It's like leaving in the middle
• 36:31
  of class, you know, It's like. When people are crying.
• 36:33
  When people are crying, Yeah. Well, The funny thing is that I
• 36:39
  also did it to Devlin. I left one of his workshops in
• 36:42
  the middle of a men's circle because there was a cumbia
• 36:45
  workshop happening at the same time.
• 36:48
  So good. It's like in the background, I
• 36:50
  can hear the cumbia, and I'm like, in this men's circle, and
• 36:53
  I'm like, my body is involuntarily dancing, like,
• 36:56
  moving suddenly. And I was like, Sean, you gotta
• 36:58
  get out of here. This is inappropriate, you know?
• 37:00
  Yeah. And maybe that speaks to my
• 37:02
  inability to lock in, you know? Maybe, but I, I mean, I think
• 37:07
  when it's really important to be able to hold yourself no matter
• 37:11
  what the circumstances and say, is this rightful?
• 37:14
  Is this a good situation for me? And it's different when you're
• 37:17
  in a relationship versus festival culture, but it's a
• 37:21
  good thing to be able to try out these moments of holding
• 37:24
  yourself, being your sovereignty and less stake scenarios or
• 37:27
  lower stake scenarios. Then when you have to leave or
• 37:31
  you have to, you know, exit, have a Phoenix exodus.
• 37:36
  And you were really good at that.
• 37:37
  You're really good at holding yourself.
• 37:38
  And you know, I was in a facilitator mode and we weren't
• 37:43
  really friends. You know, I had actually reached
• 37:47
  out to you and you didn't respond to me, which was why I
• 37:50
  was like, cool, we can see it like if we do see each other.
• 37:52
  So there wasn't repair between us.
• 37:55
  We were not in this like fluid state.
• 37:57
  So I'm there thinking that you're going to like assess me,
• 38:02
  see if I'm a good facilitator and I am a stickler.
• 38:05
  I really love male validation. It has to be a certain quality
• 38:10
  of validation. But it's a part of me that's
• 38:12
  like, oh, I do feel a certain kind of empowerment when I know
• 38:18
  that people that I respect are in the audience.
• 38:22
  And I've had to get right with that because that wasn't always
• 38:24
  like, very feminist of me, you know, but just doing that.
• 38:27
  And when you left, I immediately had to put that down.
• 38:32
  You're like, OK, that's fine. He's making his own choices.
• 38:36
  And I could feel you making your own choice.
• 38:38
  It was good for you. And I think that that is what
• 38:40
  makes a difference is when you're holding yourself and
• 38:43
  you're not doing it. Like, I hate this workshop,
• 38:46
  right? I'm not vibing like, this is
• 38:49
  your fault that I don't like this.
• 38:51
  And just being like, no, like, I'm wanting something different.
• 38:53
  So it's a different posture to have toward the context, right?
• 38:58
  Well, the, The funny thing is it was a, yours was like very like
• 39:01
  heartfelt and intentional and, you know, beautiful.
• 39:06
  And I, I knew that it was going to be a powerful experience, but
• 39:09
  I wasn't in the right place for it.
• 39:11
  So I wasn't going to be able to really experience your magic
• 39:15
  when I'm in. I wasn't open to that particular
• 39:18
  experience. And just to show you what kind
• 39:20
  of frame of mind I was in, I ran to a bird workshop where we
• 39:24
  like, imitated bird noises and drew bird's song.
• 39:28
  Like, that's where I was like I was at a little boy.
• 39:31
  And I think it's beautiful. I don't think that we as adults,
• 39:35
  as grown men allow ourselves to be little boys and to play and
• 39:40
  to frolic and to be silly and to, like, not worry about how we
• 39:44
  look to other people. I mean also festivals are great
• 39:47
  places to let your little inner child kind of, you know, seek
• 39:51
  its bliss and and run wild a little bit.
• 39:54
  Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
• 39:56
  Oh, I'm feeling a kind of like a wanting to ask you about, like I
• 40:02
  want to ask you a question, but it might turn us into a totally
• 40:05
  different conversation 'cause I'm feeling the little boy in
• 40:08
  you who, you know, went to go to birdsong and frolic and just be
• 40:13
  in that play. And I I'm feeling like the loss
• 40:16
  that you didn't know your men went through that weekend, that
• 40:20
  I know that. How do I say this?
• 40:22
  There are so many opportunities that weekend for you to come to
• 40:25
  some of my workshops where your man would have been cherished
• 40:28
  and nourished and cared for and you optimized to take care of
• 40:34
  the part of you that needed care, which was the little boy.
• 40:37
  But I don't think that you would have known how to be with what
• 40:43
  was there for you and your men, because that's the place that we
• 40:46
  were talking to about in the beginning.
• 40:48
  Like the performative and then the little boy.
• 40:50
  It's like the in between guy who gets to be in his vulnerability
• 40:55
  and his strength simultaneously. So it's like.
• 40:58
  I think you're right. You know, I think maybe don't
• 41:01
  give the little boy enough care and attention, but sometimes the
• 41:04
  little boy kind of rules me, you know, in terms of like my toys
• 41:08
  and my projects and like seeking sexual novelty and desire.
• 41:12
  And like, you know, I, I think I probably give my little boy a,
• 41:16
  you know, a run for his money more than more than most.
• 41:19
  And you know, it's coming up recently.
• 41:21
  This is so embarrassing. But like, whatever, who cares,
• 41:27
  You know, Yolo. I've never identified as like a
• 41:30
  Peter Pan, but apparently. I was waiting for you to say the
• 41:34
  Peter Pan. Bring some union.
• 41:38
  I feel like I'm I must be Peter Pan.
• 41:40
  There must be some some elements of Peter Pan here going on.
• 41:43
  Yeah, that's an archetypal force that lives largely in men, in
• 41:48
  the masculine, because there isn't much initiation that goes
• 41:53
  on for boys who become men in the West or in in a lot of
• 41:57
  cultures. Right.
• 41:58
  And I was going to ask you, was there a moment where you knew
• 42:04
  that you were becoming a man or that you were the gates to
• 42:08
  manhood or masculinity was opening up to you, your dad or.
• 42:14
  No. Yeah.
• 42:16
  Not really. Do you feel a kind of way about
• 42:19
  that? I'm not sure.
• 42:20
  I haven't really. I think it's, it's a shame that
• 42:23
  there was no kind of like shepherding into manhood.
• 42:27
  I mean, I discovered drugs at, you know, 14 or something.
• 42:30
  And then that was my initiation into adulthood, right.
• 42:35
  I, like, grew up quickly using drugs and doing things that,
• 42:39
  like, you know, teenagers shouldn't be doing.
• 42:43
  But no, like, manhood, Yeah. Was never something that I
• 42:46
  discussed. There was never.
• 42:48
  It's just not something that my dad probably knew how to talk
• 42:51
  about. Yeah, I think it's tough for a
• 42:54
  lot of dads, a lot of men. No idea.
• 42:57
  No idea if you were to initiate yourself now into what is beyond
• 43:03
  Peter Pan, what is? Beyond Neverland.
• 43:09
  What is beyond Neverland? Yeah.
• 43:12
  I was talking to somebody yesterday.
• 43:14
  Oh, I did a podcast with a sex therapist, and she was like,
• 43:19
  she's like, yeah, I feel like we should all learn to live in
• 43:22
  Neverland. What if we all lived in
• 43:23
  Neverland, You know, if we were all a bunch of kids kind of
• 43:26
  taking care of each other and playing, which I like the idea
• 43:29
  of that, but. Yeah, it's beautiful.
• 43:31
  I'm not sure what an, an initiation out of Neverland
• 43:34
  would look like. For me, it feels super high risk
• 43:37
  cause the only thing that I can think of is like, oh, dedicated
• 43:39
  partnership and having children and I'm like, oh, that's, you
• 43:45
  know, straight from the kiddie pool into the deep end.
• 43:47
  Well. It sounds like your vibe.
• 43:50
  No. I mean, I mean, it's either,
• 43:53
  it's either kiddie pool or really intense depth, right?
• 43:56
  Sure. Yeah, that is kind of my vibe.
• 44:00
  I mean, I think I'm just going to accidentally knock somebody
• 44:02
  up and we're going to we're going to commit for life kind of
• 44:05
  thing. Is that the ideal?
• 44:08
  That's not the ideal what? Is the deal happened to me?
• 44:12
  I don't want to happen to it. I feel like it'd be good for the
• 44:17
  plot, though. It'd be a really amazing story.
• 44:20
  It's actually what what happened to my brother, kind of he, him
• 44:23
  and his girlfriend at the time, this was like, gosh, 20 years
• 44:26
  ago now. She got pregnant like four
• 44:29
  months or six months into the meeting.
• 44:31
  And then they're like, all right, well, let's get married.
• 44:33
  And now they have three boys and they're happy and.
• 44:37
  So. But my brother always wanted
• 44:38
  family, like that was really important to him, and I think
• 44:41
  like my experience of family life hasn't really inspired my
• 44:47
  desire to recreate that. So for you, living outside of
• 44:52
  Neverland is becoming a father and having a committed study
• 44:58
  relationship. That's the scope of the
• 45:01
  evolution here. Yeah, kind of.
• 45:03
  And being a provider for a family.
• 45:07
  Yeah, that sounds really hard and heavy to hold as as a
• 45:13
  context for what it means to be a man who is living inside of
• 45:18
  like healthy mature masculinity or even like erotic maturity.
• 45:24
  Because Peter Pan is not erotically mature.
• 45:26
  He is hooked on novelty and high dopamine experiences.
• 45:32
  And you know, we want the inner child to thrive and to be there
• 45:36
  and to have access to him. But the child in archetypal
• 45:41
  union theory can evolve to be a sovereign, right?
• 45:46
  Like a, an individuated human who's got himself, who has a
• 45:52
  vision, who has a decree, right, like a law in which he lives his
• 45:56
  life or she lives her life. Because the child exists in in
• 46:02
  the shadow realms as well, which means like when we're stuck in
• 46:06
  the child's mentality of the Peter Pan, it's kind of a
• 46:10
  survival mechanism to keep getting our needs met that we
• 46:14
  didn't get as children. So we're kind of like cycling,
• 46:17
  flying around that. And yeah, I really would love
• 46:21
  for the scope of what the evolution looks like to be
• 46:25
  broader. And I, I see it's broader than
• 46:27
  what you shared, just even how you're living your life, your
• 46:30
  contribution in the world's, what you are sharing with us,
• 46:35
  with others, right? Like there is something of a a
• 46:38
  fathering going on. A a daddy ING.
• 46:43
  There's a daddy ING going on, yeah.
• 46:49
  Yeah, I love it. I mean, I love that, you know,
• 46:51
  that you went there and sort of questioned what me showing up
• 46:55
  more in my I guess it's in my masculine.
• 46:59
  Yeah, And I mean, it doesn't have to be labeled as such, but
• 47:03
  there is, you know, we talk about the manosphere.
• 47:05
  I watched that the other night. Oh, yeah, Me too.
• 47:08
  Documentary. And I'm just like, wow.
• 47:10
  This is a highly amplified version of men who are really
• 47:16
  pissed that their mothers are not their fathers.
• 47:19
  And just, like, taking it to the extreme, Like, there's a happy
• 47:25
  balance there. There's a healthy balance there
• 47:28
  where men can be providers, but also, you know, or there can be
• 47:32
  healthy male leadership where you're not bulldozing everything
• 47:37
  and plowing through and penetrating all the things
• 47:40
  without any kind of responsibility for the
• 47:43
  consequences. Yeah, I want to be having that
• 47:46
  conversation all the time with men.
• 47:48
  And I am actually. It's a big part of how I live my
• 47:52
  life and having it with with women as well.
• 47:55
  Can you expand on like, men being angry that their mothers
• 47:59
  aren't their fathers? Yeah, I really thought about
• 48:03
  this after watching, you know, having those 3-4 examples of the
• 48:07
  men that were documented being interviewed and they all didn't
• 48:13
  have a present father in their lives.
• 48:16
  And their mother seemed to be a highly functioning, hyper
• 48:20
  independent, take care of all the things woman that is, you
• 48:25
  know, very young oriented woman. Like I'm going to do the thing.
• 48:30
  I got to take care of things and.
• 48:31
  Yeah, working 2 jobs, showing up as both the the father and the
• 48:36
  mother. Exactly.
• 48:38
  So there's a big gap where male presence, healthy male
• 48:43
  fatherhood presence was correction, right?
• 48:46
  Men correct each other. It's very different when a man
• 48:50
  corrects his friend, like, hey, don't, don't call her a pussy,
• 48:54
  you know, don't, maybe don't do that.
• 48:55
  Like then if a woman does it, there's a different kind of
• 49:01
  primal body activation inside of that correction.
• 49:05
  So these boys, men, guys, dudes, I could just wonder, are they so
• 49:12
  pissed that their mothers were not their fathers, you know?
• 49:16
  And so that anger toward the feminine, toward women is then,
• 49:22
  Yep, you know, displaced onto so many women except, you know,
• 49:26
  their wives, you know, or. Girlfriends, you know, that was
• 49:29
  definitely. Yeah, but they're they think
• 49:32
  that they're treating their partner as well, which is absurd
• 49:36
  to not have that kind of awareness.
• 49:39
  So that's when I was feeling with that 'cause there's like,
• 49:43
  you know, the father 1 mother wound that plays into that.
• 49:47
  We can look at that all day long.
• 49:48
  Two things. I feel like, you know, when a
• 49:51
  woman corrects me or a man. Let's take these guys for
• 49:55
  example. If they get corrected by a
• 49:57
  woman, they might feel chastised, like they get
• 50:00
  corrected by their mom. If they get corrected by their
• 50:02
  dad, they might feel, oh, like this is a learning opportunity.
• 50:06
  This is like, I feel elevated by this form of correction.
• 50:11
  So there's a big difference between getting corrected by a
• 50:14
  man and getting corrected by a woman.
• 50:15
  Yeah, men respond really well to hierarchy, right?
• 50:18
  Do we do? I I think so.
• 50:20
  I think so. I mean, look at the systems in
• 50:22
  which we are part of. Which leading to the second
• 50:27
  thing I want to say is that like these boys, these guys are angry
• 50:31
  at women when they should be angry at billionaires, right?
• 50:36
  Like that's the real problem. The real problem is the system
• 50:39
  is not the women, right? But they can't be mad at
• 50:43
  billionaires because they want to be billionaires.
• 50:47
  And they can't be mad at billionaires because most
• 50:48
  billionaires are men. And so it's easier to say, oh,
• 50:52
  women are the reason that we're not doing well at school, that
• 50:55
  we're not making as much money, that we're not getting as much
• 50:57
  respect anymore. This is the real problem, when
• 51:00
  really I think it's the system and it's capitalism.
• 51:05
  But they can't rail against that because it's also the thing that
• 51:09
  they want and that they think is going to make them feel better
• 51:12
  is the money, the cars and the girls.
• 51:15
  They often say get out of the matrix, get out of the matrix,
• 51:20
  and you know the etymology of matrix, it's actually womb, it's
• 51:24
  mother. So it's interesting how we use
• 51:26
  language and we don't know what we're saying, but it does create
• 51:31
  in some contexts are realities and they're looking to get out
• 51:37
  of the matrix, which is the system, these systems that are
• 51:40
  in place. But and then you say that
• 51:42
  they're angry at the billionaires, which are part of
• 51:45
  the system. So I just don't think that
• 51:48
  they're cognitive rationality. It's not congruent.
• 51:52
  Like it doesn't really align. There's no ethical values or
• 51:55
  morality to stand on. So they're kind of flailing a
• 51:58
  little bit. You're right.
• 52:00
  When women correct men, it does come off as a coddling, as a
• 52:07
  mothering. And there's a rejection often
• 52:11
  like a man will reject the mother to be able to individuate
• 52:15
  inside of himself. And a lot of women, you do that
• 52:17
  all the time, you know, correcting men left and right
• 52:20
  all the time. So that is something that lives
• 52:24
  in a different realm of how we initiate each other, how we
• 52:30
  don't actually initiate each other.
• 52:32
  I've had to step away from doing that because I'll be like, if I
• 52:37
  take control here, it's easier for me to do it than ask for it
• 52:41
  to be done. And then if he does it, then I
• 52:44
  don't know that it's going to be done well.
• 52:46
  So I'm going to correct him. And I had to walk myself off the
• 52:51
  internal tension that I feel when I get into that mode and
• 52:57
  learn to never correct him. So I, I really rarely correct
• 53:03
  men in my life that are close to me unless they're doing
• 53:06
  something that's illegal or totally immoral.
• 53:08
  But like, if you're driving the car and there's an exit coming
• 53:12
  up, I'm not going to tell you that you're going to miss it.
• 53:15
  You miss it. And what does that do?
• 53:19
  I'm really curious about this because I kind of feel similarly
• 53:22
  to you in in a bit of a different way.
• 53:24
  Like just speaking, that has me feel a little bit of an erotic
• 53:29
  charge because I don't get to, I don't have to control
• 53:35
  everything. And I can trust that if he's
• 53:38
  making a decision, which is a big experience in this body, in
• 53:43
  this female body, to trust a man, Oh my gosh, that's a big
• 53:48
  risk to take. But that risk is where the
• 53:51
  erotic lives is in that place of what else is going to come to
• 53:54
  life here. If I'm not overstepping in where
• 53:58
  he's, you know, has authority or conviction or is in charge in
• 54:04
  the moment driving a car, great example of that.
• 54:07
  You know, another woman might get kind of turned off that her
• 54:11
  partner missed the exit. Yeah, too bad.
• 54:16
  She'd get all panties in A twist about it and then get off.
• 54:19
  I'm being pissed at him. So that's another thing is like
• 54:23
  there's a thing called the pain body.
• 54:25
  Edgar Tolle coined it and it's this unconscious like field
• 54:31
  around us that's filled with our wounds and our trauma and our
• 54:33
  pain and it wants to stay alive. It wants to be active and that
• 54:40
  pain body with the female body is like, oh, we want to collude
• 54:44
  with that pain. It's like the same thing as
• 54:47
  letting down the mask that you were speaking to before.
• 54:50
  Like it's so vulnerable. It's the same thing with pain.
• 54:52
  Like pain is sometimes the thing that we stay hooked onto and
• 54:54
  keep our teeth. Oh it.
• 54:56
  Feels it feels like something's happening right, like feel
• 55:01
  alive, feel like justified and. Yeah.
• 55:05
  And in the realm of somatic work, I had to unpeel the layers
• 55:11
  of my being hooked on the pain. Like being hooked on, oh, I kind
• 55:17
  of like feeling like I'm being disrespected or dishonored and
• 55:22
  then turning that into something that is healthy and pleasurable
• 55:27
  versus something that is creating chaos all over my life.
• 55:30
  Yeah. There's, you know, different
• 55:32
  waves of working with those kinds of dynamics, but one of
• 55:37
  them was really how can I stop being angry at the men in my
• 55:41
  life for doing all the things that they do?
• 55:44
  Like, how am I participating in that conversation and actually
• 55:49
  continuing it? So self responsibility.
• 55:55
  So I'm curious Mouse, I have like so many different threads
• 55:58
  that I want to follow here. I try to keep them all.
• 56:01
  How do we invite men to do better?
• 56:07
  Just how do we invite them to do better?
• 56:09
  I guess I mean, or do we just accept them because it feels
• 56:14
  like there's like, you know, the rhetoric these days is like,
• 56:17
  yeah, men are trash. Men, you know, they're useless.
• 56:20
  They can't hold space. They bottle up emotions.
• 56:24
  You know, they're not very emotionally available like that.
• 56:26
  That's what I'm hearing, right? How do we or is that just men's
• 56:31
  jobs? Like, that's my job to now work
• 56:33
  with men and women. You've done enough.
• 56:37
  Yeah. As in like, not like you've done
• 56:38
  enough. You know, quick fucking shit.
• 56:39
  But, but you. You.
• 56:42
  Also maybe. But also, maybe this is what I
• 56:45
  love about you though. Like you're, you're very, you're
• 56:48
  open to throwing men if they're women, you know, under the bus.
• 56:52
  As well. Yeah, everybody get under the
• 56:54
  bus. Yeah, like how do we do better
• 56:59
  feel ability? How do we become more feelable
• 57:03
  to each other and build our communication from that place?
• 57:09
  And so if I am in my feeling body, right, if I'm really
• 57:14
  connected to my root, my heart, my womb, like if I'm in my body
• 57:19
  and I'm sensing something's off and I'm like, hey, this really
• 57:24
  doesn't feel good to me. This doesn't feel right.
• 57:28
  And I can stay in that place within myself and not collapse
• 57:33
  or vomit the emotion or let it splay all over the place, which
• 57:38
  is something that that I find. Yeah, you're integrating.
• 57:44
  You're integrating. Yeah, that's right.
• 57:46
  That's right. Have you ever had a woman tell
• 57:48
  you that like that something really didn't feel good and it
• 57:51
  had you have a kind of body based or emotional chiropractic
• 57:56
  adjustment and like, oh, OK, like I hear you.
• 57:59
  I feel that. Yeah.
• 58:02
  Have you? Ever had women get mad at you?
• 58:05
  Get kind of pissed and like from a place of 'cause there can be
• 58:09
  like anger that comes out of man from a place of like big
• 58:14
  velocity and big emotion. And I found that that has a man
• 58:19
  react and feel like OK, like give my attention, but it
• 58:23
  doesn't really get to the sweet spot of repair.
• 58:27
  Like it can create a rupture, but it doesn't get to like this
• 58:29
  repair place. And so I have found that
• 58:33
  touching the place of my emotion beyond the kind of like inner
• 58:37
  wild woman crazy. Like, you know, that part of me
• 58:41
  is like, I just want to fucking lose my shit.
• 58:43
  Like, OK, what am I really trying to say here?
• 58:44
  And touch that place that comes with vulnerability and tears.
• 58:49
  And I'm like filled with that sensation.
• 58:52
  And I bring that to my man or I bring that to men and they can
• 58:57
  feel me in it. It changes things.
• 59:01
  It softens his heart. It has him want to be more
• 59:06
  empathic, more connected. But there's so many layers to
• 59:10
  get to that place of touching oneself, like touching the place
• 59:14
  of truth in the body and then sharing that with another.
• 59:18
  So much melting that has to happen to get to that place that
• 59:22
  we're just kind of like, we're not doing that.
• 59:24
  We're just like always, just like triggered and on activated.
• 59:28
  Activated. Yeah.
• 59:29
  Yeah, operating from like a higher, not like a higher
• 59:33
  frequency, Yeah, velocity. Wattage, Yeah, yeah.
• 59:37
  So some of my clients, like they will have the biggest orgasms
• 59:44
  immediately after they're able to go into that place, like move
• 59:47
  with the pain, beyond the pain into the pleasure because it's
• 59:51
  like, whoa, I've never felt myself that way.
• 59:53
  Because the female body has a circuitry that when she opens,
• 59:58
  she's conducting the fields of energy around her.
• 1:00:03
  We're creational beings. So that's a big thing as
• 1:00:07
  birthing women to not just be birthing babies, but be
• 1:00:11
  birthings, energy, wattage, power of life.
• 1:00:17
  That's a little bit more on the mythic.
• 1:00:20
  Careful, careful. Back it up.
• 1:00:25
  Back it up. I don't want, we don't want, we
• 1:00:26
  don't want to lose them. We don't want to lose them.
• 1:00:29
  I will say I love your woo mythicness.
• 1:00:32
  It's. Part of the waters, you know?
• 1:00:35
  Yeah, yeah. I like playing in, in, you know,
• 1:00:38
  all sorts of different spaces. Some might be a more like
• 1:00:41
  psychological. When you bring that, I mean you,
• 1:00:43
  you're like the total package. You bring it all.
• 1:00:46
  Also, I wanted to give you just a little bit of love because I
• 1:00:50
  have attended your Solstice celebration and I've seen you
• 1:00:53
  facilitate and I've experienced you and you were phenomenal.
• 1:00:58
  You're just, you're a phenomenal facilitator and you're, you're a
• 1:01:02
  phenomenal woman. And I'm eternally grateful, you
• 1:01:05
  know, for our friendship and for your presence in my life.
• 1:01:10
  Thank you, I really adore you and I didn't know that and so
• 1:01:15
  now I'm getting the validation from the male gaze and you that
• 1:01:18
  I've been wanting. Finally, how does it feel?
• 1:01:25
  Actually, I was never really sure, you know, like I didn't
• 1:01:27
  know. I didn't actually know that.
• 1:01:30
  So if I were to trust that what you're saying is genuine, which
• 1:01:35
  I'm choosing to do, which I don't always, it feels good to
• 1:01:39
  hear. And I really wanted you to have
• 1:01:42
  a good time because you were you had the option of something
• 1:01:46
  else. So that meant a lot that you
• 1:01:48
  came. Oh, yes, to your solstice.
• 1:01:51
  Yeah. I mean, that was great.
• 1:01:52
  But I'm, you know, I'm tearing up again because I feel sad that
• 1:01:56
  you don't know how I feel about you.
• 1:01:59
  Or maybe is this just in the facilitator concept realm or
• 1:02:02
  like the friendship realm? I think I genuinely have trouble
• 1:02:06
  being with how people really feel about me.
• 1:02:11
  I feel sad because I feel like I've worked really hard on
• 1:02:15
  letting people know how I feel about them.
• 1:02:17
  And I think part of that is they might not just believe me
• 1:02:22
  because I'm so sarcastic. And so like when I say like,
• 1:02:25
  yeah, I really love you. Like people are like, yeah, OK,
• 1:02:26
  whatever. And then the other part is you,
• 1:02:31
  right? Like the the inability or the
• 1:02:33
  the challenge of like letting that stuff in, right?
• 1:02:37
  Like letting maybe it's male love or maybe it's just
• 1:02:40
  validation or affection or attention or whatever.
• 1:02:43
  Yeah, you know, so I'm sad that even though I think I've
• 1:02:46
  communicated it, that it hasn't landed.
• 1:02:49
  I'm letting it land. I can feel this.
• 1:02:52
  You know, the like little wounded child in me is often the
• 1:02:56
  one who's like, what do I have to give in exchange for this?
• 1:02:59
  You know, like, what is the debt that I am now owing?
• 1:03:04
  And that isn't like that's an old yeah, tenderness.
• 1:03:07
  And so I'll have that space of receiving and then also be able
• 1:03:12
  to choose basically, it's OK, you can open, you can receive
• 1:03:15
  it. Take it.
• 1:03:16
  Yeah, you don't have to do anything.
• 1:03:18
  Yeah, you're so good at saying that.
• 1:03:19
  You say that a lot. I've heard you say you don't
• 1:03:22
  have to do anything, just stop. I'm like.
• 1:03:24
  Just show up. Just be there.
• 1:03:25
  Yeah, just like you like as a person is like plenty.
• 1:03:29
  Yeah. Thank you for being that place,
• 1:03:32
  you know, being that person who has corrected me and the most
• 1:03:38
  beautiful way of inviting me into being more in my receiving
• 1:03:42
  space, just receiving, Yeah. It's hard, yeah.
• 1:03:47
  It's hard for me to receive too. We're.
• 1:03:49
  Just doing so good at practicing.
• 1:03:54
  I can imagine that receiving is is hard for a lot of people.
• 1:03:57
  Yeah, it's so it's such a big space to enter into and you're
• 1:04:03
  really committing to being in, in reciprocity or in
• 1:04:07
  relationships where you are having your needs met, having
• 1:04:11
  your desires met, being seen, right.
• 1:04:13
  We all want to be seen. What kind of scene?
• 1:04:16
  The male gaze No. Every now and then.
• 1:04:19
  Yeah, definitely. But it's like a, it's like an
• 1:04:21
  M&M, you know, it's, it's not long lasting.
• 1:04:23
  It's it's like a a little. Quick.
• 1:04:24
  Superficial. It's not the deep manuka honey.
• 1:04:27
  Kind of, yeah. We're gonna link to the Manuka
• 1:04:30
  honey in the show notes. Do you want the real deal or do
• 1:04:34
  you want the Manuka honey? Yeah, use code Laura for 50%
• 1:04:38
  off. Oh.
• 1:04:39
  My God that Manuka honey is expensive.
• 1:04:43
  Rightfully so. You were saying that after I
• 1:04:46
  made the joke, which is what I do sometimes, you know, to,
• 1:04:48
  like, lighten the mood a little bit.
• 1:04:49
  Yeah. Why it's hard to receive, you
• 1:04:53
  know, like the true compliments or presents or, or why it's hard
• 1:04:57
  to be seen. A.
• 1:04:58
  Lot of us receive things we don't want to receive A lot of
• 1:05:00
  us have, you know, not had our receiving needs met so many and
• 1:05:06
  we don't even know what we want to receive.
• 1:05:08
  You know, it's taken me practice to be with the truth of my
• 1:05:13
  desires and really taking responsibility for that.
• 1:05:17
  And sometimes it's a very inconvenient thing to be
• 1:05:21
  responsible for things that I want.
• 1:05:24
  And sometimes I realized too late what I wanted to receive
• 1:05:27
  and then have to be with the grief of that.
• 1:05:30
  So it's a complicated terrain of, you know, being with the
• 1:05:34
  emotional depth of it. And so I think along the way,
• 1:05:40
  forgiving ourselves is really important.
• 1:05:42
  For not. For not knowing and not knowing
• 1:05:46
  how and then figuring it out, you know, in different timelines
• 1:05:50
  or in different times that you're like, oh, I would have
• 1:05:52
  wanted more of that. You know, I have a a client
• 1:05:55
  recently who was like, man, if I would have done this work like
• 1:05:57
  20 years ago, I would have saved so much time.
• 1:06:00
  A lot of people say that, you know, it's like, well, where we
• 1:06:03
  are right now, you're doing great.
• 1:06:05
  Yeah, who knows? We can't backtrack.
• 1:06:07
  We don't know. And we have to grieve, you know,
• 1:06:10
  like, oh man, I really wish I had done this 20 years ago.
• 1:06:14
  Yeah, yeah. Oops.
• 1:06:16
  Which I love. Holding space for grief.
• 1:06:19
  I don't know about you, but. It's what I'm learning to do.
• 1:06:23
  My therapist says that like life is learning to live with grief.
• 1:06:27
  Yeah. And it feels like we don't,
• 1:06:29
  we're not set up for it in this culture, You know, it's, it's
• 1:06:32
  like a funeral. It's like, oh, somebody dies.
• 1:06:34
  We have the funeral like 2 days later they're buried and it's
• 1:06:37
  gone. Like what?
• 1:06:38
  That's and we're supposed to just like go back to work, you
• 1:06:41
  know? Like there's not a lot of yeah,
• 1:06:43
  we're not patience, like space, you know, like we're, we're just
• 1:06:49
  sort of expected to get on with it.
• 1:06:51
  Let's do this quickly so that we can move on with life.
• 1:06:54
  Yeah. And I think it's worthy to name
• 1:06:56
  that we're in a time where we are creating these new systems.
• 1:07:00
  And so we have to be really aware that we're doing things
• 1:07:05
  that our culture has been impoverished by.
• 1:07:07
  And so we're learning to, you know, hold space for grief or
• 1:07:11
  allow there to be, you know, the heart that's breaking open all
• 1:07:16
  the time. And that it might be messy,
• 1:07:19
  right, 'cause it's like, oh, don't show the mess of that.
• 1:07:21
  Like it has to look contained. And grief and love is fucking
• 1:07:27
  messy. Yeah, and it's beautiful.
• 1:07:30
  And it's, you know, when I went to the grief ritual that Devlin
• 1:07:34
  was hosting that you were supporting at this festival.
• 1:07:39
  Well, first of all, I walked in late and walking in late to a
• 1:07:41
  grief ritual into a crowded teepee and like looking for a
• 1:07:45
  place to sit is also kind of ballsy.
• 1:07:47
  Like leaving is ballsy. Arriving is ballsy.
• 1:07:50
  Like, but I was like, no, I want to be here.
• 1:07:52
  I'm going to do this. And I sat next to a person that
• 1:07:55
  I I didn't know. And you know, through this, you
• 1:07:58
  know, the hour long ritual, at some point I, you know,
• 1:08:02
  experienced grief and people around me experienced grief.
• 1:08:06
  And we connected on our grief that was different.
• 1:08:09
  My grief is not the same as this other person's grief, but we
• 1:08:13
  connected around grief and with perfect strangers, total
• 1:08:17
  strangers that now have become friends, right?
• 1:08:20
  Like we can grieve together and that could create friendship.
• 1:08:23
  It could create relationship, it create connection.
• 1:08:26
  And it's so beautiful to be able to see somebody that you don't
• 1:08:29
  know, have that experience and be able to hold space for
• 1:08:32
  something that you don't even know what the grief is about.
• 1:08:34
  And it doesn't even really matter.
• 1:08:36
  It's just there and we all have it.
• 1:08:38
  We do, and there's something about grief that has us go so
• 1:08:42
  deep into our feelings that it reaches the same place as the
• 1:08:47
  erotic nature. And so, you know, you'll see
• 1:08:50
  that in movies or in stories where it's like, oh, I'm at a
• 1:08:53
  funeral and I just want to like, get off.
• 1:08:56
  But there's a more, you know, vulnerable place where that
• 1:09:00
  experience is titrated. And you're like, oh, I am
• 1:09:05
  feeling so much love while I'm grieving.
• 1:09:09
  And this is something that I like to normalize within myself
• 1:09:12
  and with others. It's like, oh, I'm actually
• 1:09:14
  turned on. Why is that?
• 1:09:16
  And so like Eros and grief has been a big point of research or
• 1:09:22
  curiosity of wondering for me, like how do I actually go deep
• 1:09:27
  into my emotional body through grief and then turn it into a
• 1:09:32
  pleasure full experience? And so I do that with my partner
• 1:09:36
  who is really well equipped to do that and then bring that into
• 1:09:40
  the world through workshops and so on.
• 1:09:42
  But have you experienced that? Wanting to fuck somebody at a
• 1:09:45
  funeral. Yes, yes, Sean, I need to know.
• 1:09:51
  Well, no, gosh, I've only been to like one funeral and it was
• 1:09:55
  my dad's. I haven't, have I?
• 1:09:58
  Is that true? Jesus Christ, that's so weird.
• 1:10:01
  And we waited months before having the funeral.
• 1:10:03
  After he passed, my mom was like, oh, I'm not ready for
• 1:10:05
  that. Why would we do that now, you
• 1:10:07
  know? So we waited like 3 months more
• 1:10:10
  five months, you know? Forever.
• 1:10:12
  But my experience of Eroticism and grief, yeah, I mean, people
• 1:10:19
  experience grief in all sorts of different ways.
• 1:10:22
  I had like very little libido after my dad passed, like very
• 1:10:26
  little desire in in relationship connection.
• 1:10:30
  I I literally couldn't show up for anybody.
• 1:10:32
  Yeah. Is there a world in which I
• 1:10:34
  could have found someone just fucked for a night and like,
• 1:10:37
  kind of like grief? Fuck them for sure, but I didn't
• 1:10:40
  have the energy to like make that happen so.
• 1:10:43
  Yeah. Or maybe you were careful about
• 1:10:46
  that. Yeah, no, I didn't want to bring
• 1:10:48
  anybody into into what was going on with me.
• 1:10:51
  But there, you know, there could be a world in which you you set
• 1:10:53
  up a field account and your profile says I'm grieving the
• 1:10:58
  death of my father. Would love a night where I just
• 1:11:00
  forget about that and have sex. Like someone might be like hot
• 1:11:05
  that's fucking weird and hot. I want I could see me even being
• 1:11:09
  interested in somebody who wants a different kind of experience
• 1:11:12
  through their grief and wants to have sex for a night like that.
• 1:11:15
  Sounds interesting. Yeah.
• 1:11:17
  And if anything, it's not shutting off the mind, it's
• 1:11:20
  allowing it, the rivers of that terrain to move differently,
• 1:11:24
  having like the nervous system generate a different kind of
• 1:11:27
  opportunity there. And yeah, like it is totally
• 1:11:31
  hot. And that's why I'm like, you
• 1:11:32
  know, there's like fucking and then there's what if you were
• 1:11:35
  just massaged and you were able to be in that sensation?
• 1:11:40
  I know that when I hold groups and there's a lot of grief that
• 1:11:43
  moves through, like I need to feel my body and I need to move
• 1:11:47
  the grief that I've kind of like been saturated by.
• 1:11:51
  I move it out and I'll do it through like, you know,
• 1:11:53
  different kinds of mediums that are sensual.
• 1:11:57
  Cause grief is a tender thing that means tenderness.
• 1:12:01
  So there's like a a weaving there that does take a lot of
• 1:12:05
  energy. It does require energy to be
• 1:12:07
  able to touch those two places, I think.
• 1:12:10
  Oh, for sure. Yeah, so the.
• 1:12:11
  Titration, Titration. The titration matters.
• 1:12:15
  Like I think it's like, have you heard that word?
• 1:12:18
  Like like go into it slowly. Yeah, yeah, I know.
• 1:12:20
  I just love the word titration. Titration.
• 1:12:25
  Titrate, yeah. Yeah.
• 1:12:29
  Beautiful. It's just having me remember so
• 1:12:32
  many, yeah, just so many of the experiences where you touched
• 1:12:36
  grief and let yourself be held in that.
• 1:12:38
  And so I was really moved by you multiple times for how much
• 1:12:42
  surrender you went into and and let yourself kind of just ask
• 1:12:46
  and be met. So much.
• 1:12:48
  I mean, I was not hiding it at all.
• 1:12:50
  I'd be in coffee shops just like tears streaming down my face
• 1:12:53
  being like, well, that's it. People are like, are you OK?
• 1:12:55
  I'm like kind of not really, but you know, like it was just
• 1:13:00
  really, people were just like, wow, that guy's just crying, you
• 1:13:03
  know, like because we don't do that.
• 1:13:05
  We don't, we go hide. We like compartmentalize it, we
• 1:13:07
  push it down, but we'll deal with this later.
• 1:13:10
  It's like, oh, why don't you just deal with it now?
• 1:13:11
  It's only going to take 5 minutes, you know.
• 1:13:15
  You're not going to crystallize it and have to deal with it for
• 1:13:17
  years in therapy, right? It's not like I was crying
• 1:13:20
  straight for two months, like, but I cried every single day for
• 1:13:23
  two months and I wasn't. And I would also like try, I
• 1:13:26
  would like listen to extra sad songs to go and touch it, you
• 1:13:30
  know, touch more of it, more of it, more of it without even
• 1:13:32
  having a story. It's like, oh, what are these
• 1:13:34
  tears about? What are these tears about?
• 1:13:36
  It's just like, Nope. It's just like a pool of grief,
• 1:13:40
  unconsolidated, just sitting there needing to be like
• 1:13:42
  expressed and felt. And that's how I didn't attach
• 1:13:46
  any story to oh, this is this. This is when they did.
• 1:13:50
  It's just like, Nope, it's all sad.
• 1:13:52
  It was beautiful. That's a.
• 1:13:53
  Good way to do it. That's a great way to do it.
• 1:13:55
  Just not attach a story and let your body be wrung out like a
• 1:13:59
  wet sponge. So good, so good.
• 1:14:03
  I had a friend who I was in the sauna with a few weeks ago and
• 1:14:06
  he is like, this morning I was at a coffee shop and I was just
• 1:14:10
  crying and everybody around me treated me like it was OK and it
• 1:14:15
  was the best experience ever. So you're just paving the path,
• 1:14:19
  Sean. Hey, one more plug for Montreal.
• 1:14:22
  Yeah, come cry in our cafes. Couldn't cry in our cafes.
• 1:14:25
  People let you, People let you. They really do.
• 1:14:28
  They're like, yeah. Yeah, dude, I get it.
• 1:14:33
  Laura, I love you so much. I love you, Sean.
• 1:14:37
  Before we wrap up, who do you work with?
• 1:14:39
  How can we find you? What do you got?
• 1:14:41
  I work with people one-on-one, I work with couples and I am
• 1:14:47
  offering group containers soon. You can find me at the
• 1:14:51
  lauragriffiths.com or Tongue of Honey on Sub Stack.
• 1:14:56
  Jesus Christ. Someone saying nice sweet things
• 1:15:03
  that are also kind of fiery. On Instagram, the Laura
• 1:15:07
  Griffiths. Yeah.
• 1:15:09
  Griffiths, everybody with an S Everything's in the show notes
• 1:15:12
  but. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:15:14
  Thanks for that. Yeah, and what do you help
• 1:15:16
  people do? I help people move through
• 1:15:19
  transitions in their life to access their creative power,
• 1:15:22
  their creative genius, their erotic power.
• 1:15:25
  And we often move through trauma, we move through rupture
• 1:15:29
  and repair, and we use a lot of different tools that are very
• 1:15:34
  potent and that you can use in your day-to-day life.
• 1:15:37
  And over the long term, even generational repair goes down in
• 1:15:41
  our sessions. So yeah.
• 1:15:44
  Beautiful. If any of this spoke to you, I
• 1:15:47
  would love to hear more and I am so grateful to have this time
• 1:15:51
  with you Sean. It's always such a such a nice
• 1:15:54
  time to get to hang with my sweet bud.
• 1:15:57
  Well, one of the things I wanted to do with this podcast was not
• 1:16:00
  only have experts on, but also people that I just genuinely
• 1:16:03
  love. And you happen to be two in one.
• 1:16:07
  You're both an expert and someone that I genuinely love.
• 1:16:09
  And someone is like, oh, I can hear you talk about car parts as
• 1:16:12
  long as it's with someone that you're in love with or like, you
• 1:16:15
  know, have a relationship with. And I think this is a beautiful
• 1:16:19
  example of like how touching a conversation can be when there's
• 1:16:22
  love there. Yeah, you're bringing the love
• 1:16:25
  across many fields. Thank you for that.
• 1:16:27
  And congratulations on this beautiful relaunch.
• 1:16:31
  Boo. You're.
• 1:16:32
  So welcome. Thank you.
• 1:16:34
  Oh and also last question, what does love mean to you?
• 1:16:36
  Oh, it means optimizing for heartbreak, opening your heart
• 1:16:40
  wide open and really letting yourself be in the pool of what
• 1:16:46
  it's means to be alive, when it means to give reverence for the
• 1:16:50
  fullness of this life. That is what love means.
• 1:16:53
  And being in relationship to all beings, humans, ecosystems in
• 1:16:59
  the process of it. Oh, I love that.
• 1:17:05
  Love that question. Thank you for your wisdom,
• 1:17:08
  Laura. Thank you for your Sean.
• 1:17:12
  And that was Laura Griffiths, everybody, I hope you love this
• 1:17:16
  episode. If anything in this episode
• 1:17:18
  landed for you, do me a favor and send it to someone in your
• 1:17:20
  life who needs it. A friend, a partner, a brother.
• 1:17:23
  You can find Laura at all of the links that we've talked about in
• 1:17:27
  the show notes. Share this podcast if you want
• 1:17:30
  to leave a review, that means the world to me.
• 1:17:32
  It will help for when I start looking for advertisers for this
• 1:17:35
  podcast. Leave your comments on Spotify
• 1:17:38
  or YouTube. I love being able to engage with
• 1:17:40
  you. If there's something in this
• 1:17:41
  particular episode that you want to go deeper on or that you have
• 1:17:43
  questions on, please do that on Spotify and on YouTube.
• 1:17:47
  I do read all of the comments and if you have a question for
• 1:17:50
  me that I will answer on the solo episodes, you can leave
• 1:17:55
  either a voice memo or an e-mail at podcast at the Love dr.com or
• 1:18:00
  you can call the hotline, 415-494-9559.
• 1:18:05
  I am currently in Seoul, Korea, by the way.
• 1:18:07
  And next week I will tell you a little bit about my trip in
• 1:18:10
  Thailand and Seoul and then we'll do some Q&A and I'll share
• 1:18:12
  some more stuff with you. I'm grateful that you're here.
• 1:18:15
  Thank you so much for listening and have a beautiful week.