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Distinguishing Shame from Guilt · Pastor John Piper's answers

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  Speaker 1: We get absolutely flooded with questions here at APJ way
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  Speaker 1: more than we could ever get to and answer. And
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  Speaker 1: you know this already if you've read the stats I
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  Speaker 1: put in my little history of the podcast in the
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  Speaker 1: APGA book. But here's something interesting that you might not know.
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  Speaker 1: Quite a few of those questions coming in are actually
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  Speaker 1: from authors who are working on new book projects. It's
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  Speaker 1: quite something to see Ask Pastor John episodes popping up
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  Speaker 1: in the footnotes of books these days. You see it
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  Speaker 1: all the time now, and there's a very good chance
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  Speaker 1: today's episode is going to show up in a future
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  Speaker 1: footnote as well, because our question today comes from author
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  Speaker 1: Scott Christiansen. Scott is a friend of ours. He's a
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  Speaker 1: heavy hitter when it comes to tackling big questions. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: just look at his books what about Free Will and
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  Speaker 1: What about Evil? Not exactly light reading, those are big books.
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  Speaker 1: So he does do shorter versions of those books as well.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you for that. Scott. Scott's new project dives into
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  Speaker 1: true and false shame, true and false guilt, pretty meaty stuff.
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  Speaker 1: And here is the email that he sent Pastor down. Hello,
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  Speaker 1: I've got three questions for you. First up, how do
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  Speaker 1: you separate shame from guilt, than what makes false shame
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  Speaker 1: and false guilt different from the real thing? And finally,
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  Speaker 1: where does each one come from? I keep thinking the
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  Speaker 1: conscience must play a huge role in all of this.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Back in the nineteen eighties, I wrestled a good deal
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  Speaker 2: with the concepts of shame and guilt because they were
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  Speaker 2: very prominent in pop psychology. There was a popular book,
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  Speaker 2: for example, by John Bradshaw called Healing the Shame that
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  Speaker 2: Binds You, published in nineteen eighty eight. That book was
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  Speaker 2: shaping a lot of the discourse in evangelicalism and around
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  Speaker 2: my church, and I found it very problematical, that book.
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  Speaker 2: But I haven't kept up with the way psychotherapy in
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  Speaker 2: the last four years is talking about shame and guilt.
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  Speaker 2: So I don't know whether what I'm going to say
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  Speaker 2: right now is going to connect directly with what people
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  Speaker 2: who are studying these things today would think. But we'll see.
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  Speaker 2: The common definition of psychotherapy back then was, while guilt
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  Speaker 2: is the painful regret and responsibility for one's actions, shame
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  Speaker 2: is a painful feeling about one's self as a person.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't then and I don't now, embrace that definition,
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  Speaker 2: mainly because it's not the definition used in the Bible.
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  Speaker 2: So using that definition makes understanding and applying the Bible
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  Speaker 2: more difficult, which is what I do and want to do.
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  Speaker 2: Understand the Bible, apply the Bible to shame and guilt.
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  Speaker 2: So here's my effort to define and distinguish guilt and
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  Speaker 2: shame from the way the Bible talks about these realities.
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  Speaker 2: Guilt is the moral and the egal condition of deserving
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  Speaker 2: punishment for real wrongdoing. A person may feel guilty, but
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  Speaker 2: his feeling is not the same as the guilt. The
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  Speaker 2: feeling may be justified if there's true guilt, or the
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  Speaker 2: feeling may be unjustified if there's no true guilt. You
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  Speaker 2: can feel guilty and not be guilty, and you can
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  Speaker 2: be guilty and not feel guilty. The Bible doesn't use
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  Speaker 2: the word guilt or the concept of guilt for a feeling.
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  Speaker 2: One may or may not have that feeling and yet
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  Speaker 2: be truly guilty. So guilt assumes a moral law or
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  Speaker 2: a moral standard, and a system by which a person
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  Speaker 2: is held accountable for infractions of that moral standard. Guilt
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  Speaker 2: is the condition of being called to account for those
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  Speaker 2: infractions of the moral law it's not a matter of
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  Speaker 2: how one feels about reality. So James says Biblical Book
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  Speaker 2: of James, whoever keeps the whole law but fails in
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  Speaker 2: one point has become guilty of all of it. James two. Ten.
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  Speaker 2: The Greek word James uses and the course is used
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  Speaker 2: in the New Testament ten times and always means deserving
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  Speaker 2: of or liable to punishment for real wrongdoing. So there's
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  Speaker 2: a biblical concept of guilt which refers to the moral
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  Speaker 2: and legal condition of deserving punishment for real wrongdoing. It's
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  Speaker 2: not a feeling, it's a moral and legal status before
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  Speaker 2: the law of God or man. Shame is different. The
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  Speaker 2: basic idea is a negative, painful emotion of disgrace or
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  Speaker 2: humiliation caused by evil doing or shortcoming or impropriety. I'll
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  Speaker 2: illustrate that in just a minute. And this emotion is
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  Speaker 2: defined in part by the fact that other people think
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  Speaker 2: you should indeed be ashamed. Other people are watching, other
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  Speaker 2: people are assessing. So the basic idea is the painful
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  Speaker 2: emotion of disgrace as others watch us. But the meaning
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  Speaker 2: of the word shame is expanded beyond that in the
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  Speaker 2: Bible to refer to the behavior or the condition that
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  Speaker 2: brings down the emotion of shame. For example, Paul says,
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  Speaker 2: some people glory in their shame. Well, it's been three nineteen.
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  Speaker 2: Those people don't feel shame. They don't they don't feel shame,
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  Speaker 2: but they should. And the behavior that is shameful and
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  Speaker 2: should make them ashamed is called their shame. Or Hebrews
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  Speaker 2: twelve two, it says Jesus despised the shame of the cross.
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  Speaker 2: That means that a condition, namely hanging naked on a cross,
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  Speaker 2: that ordinarily ought to overwhelm a person with shame, Jesus
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  Speaker 2: steadfastly resisted for the joy that was set before him.
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  Speaker 2: So shame in the Bible is a painful emotion of
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  Speaker 2: disgrace or humiliation, or the behavior or the condition that
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  Speaker 2: would ordinarily cause such an emotion as people look on. Now,
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  Speaker 2: what about true and false guilt? True and false shame?
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  Speaker 2: A person is truly guilty if he did wrong before
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  Speaker 2: the law of God or the just law of man.
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  Speaker 2: And a person is not guilty if he has done
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  Speaker 2: no such wrong. If he has done wrong, he should
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  Speaker 2: feel his guilt. This is what a healthy conscience is
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  Speaker 2: for if he is not done wrong, he should not
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  Speaker 2: feel guilty no matter how many people try to make
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  Speaker 2: him feel guilty, no matter whether his conscience indicts him
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  Speaker 2: or not. He's not guilty if he hasn't done the wrong.
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  Speaker 2: There are areas where our consciences need to be as
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  Speaker 2: Andy Nacilli helpfully has written, and need to be recalibrated.
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  Speaker 2: Consciences need to be recalibrated so that they don't condemn
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  Speaker 2: us as guilty when we have not done wrong. There
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  Speaker 2: is an objective reality that we can conform to, and
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  Speaker 2: our consciences might condemn us when we haven't done anything wrong.
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  Speaker 2: We need to recalibrate our consciences according to the word
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  Speaker 2: of God. And if a person is forgiven by God
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  Speaker 2: on the basis of Jesus taking our punishment on himself,
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  Speaker 2: he should not feel guilty even though he did the wrong,
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  Speaker 2: because the wrong is now covered. It's been duly punished.
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  Speaker 2: What about true and false shame, good and bad shame?
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  Speaker 2: A few illustrations my help. Suppose you cheat and lie
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  Speaker 2: on your income tax return in order to hold back
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  Speaker 2: proper taxes. A year goes by, and your conscience bothers
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  Speaker 2: you because you really are guilty, but you don't feel
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  Speaker 2: shame it's all private, nobody knows. Then the irs comes knocking.
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  Speaker 2: The word gets out to everybody you know in your
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  Speaker 2: church and in your community that you lied. You were
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  Speaker 2: caught red handed. You have been fined and humiliated, and
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  Speaker 2: then you feel shame, and you ought to feel shame.
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  Speaker 2: That's proper shame, true shame, good shame, and you should
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  Speaker 2: want to not only to receive God's forgiveness, which is
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  Speaker 2: available in Christ, for your true guilt, your true wrongdoing,
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  Speaker 2: but you should also want to regain your good name
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  Speaker 2: and trust in the community, which may take longer and
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  Speaker 2: involves a good bit of faithful, humble obedience and upright living.
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  Speaker 2: Or suppose you've trained for months to run a fifteen
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  Speaker 2: hundred meter race and you're competing with other runners in
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  Speaker 2: front of a thousand people, and it turns out that
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  Speaker 2: they are so superior to you that all of them
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  Speaker 2: cross the finish line and Ye're still three hundred meters behind.
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  Speaker 2: So while they're celebrating, you're still running. Will one thousand
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  Speaker 2: people watch you. Should you be.
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  Speaker 1: Ashamed?
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  Speaker 2: Well, yes, if you were out partying until one in
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  Speaker 2: morning and wrecking your training the night before, you should,
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  Speaker 2: But no, no, not if you did your best. If
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  Speaker 2: you feel ashamed having done your God given best, it
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  Speaker 2: probably means you love the praise of man more than
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  Speaker 2: the praise of God. Or suppose you simply commit an impropriety.
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  Speaker 2: You go to a party thinking you're dressed appropriately, and
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  Speaker 2: when you get there you find out everybody else is
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  Speaker 2: dressed differently and you look totally out of place. Now
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  Speaker 2: there's no guilt here. It's an honest mistake. But you
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  Speaker 2: probably feel embarrassed. But there should be no mortifying shame.
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  Speaker 2: A Christian should have such a strong sense of being
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  Speaker 2: loved and accepted, invested in significant life and work by
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  Speaker 2: God that such a mistake quickly passes into forgetfulness. Well,
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  Speaker 2: so much more could be said. Chapter ten in my
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  Speaker 2: book Future, Thank Your Grace is all about shame and
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  Speaker 2: how to overcome it. But I hope this is at
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  Speaker 2: least helpful in pointing to how I would try to
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  Speaker 2: answer our friends' questions.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, pastor John. Thank you for the very
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  Speaker 1: good question, Scott. I hope these distinctions will help push
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  Speaker 1: along your research as you write this book. I look
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  Speaker 1: forward to well, I look forward to reading all of
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  Speaker 1: your books, but I can't wait to see this one
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  Speaker 1: that you're working on. Thanks for joining us today. If
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  Speaker 1: you are an author and you have a question to
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  Speaker 1: ask Pastor John, send it to us via askpastor John
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  Speaker 1: dot com and also make use of the archive we
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  Speaker 1: already have for your project as well. Every episode with
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  Speaker 1: audio and full transcripts available for you. This is episode
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  Speaker 1: twenty one thirty eight, so there's a lot in that archive. Monday,
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  Speaker 1: we are back to talk about how to have discussions
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  Speaker 1: with Roman Catholic family about Mary. Don't worship the mother
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  Speaker 1: of Jesus. Become the mother of Jesus. Become the mother
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  Speaker 1: of Jesus. That's what Jesus said. Oh, some sparks are
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  Speaker 1: gonna fly on Monday. I'm Tony Ranky. We'll see you then.