Latest / Not a Doorknob / No Effective Mental Defense

Transcript

No Effective Mental Defense · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  [gentle music] So what do you do with a running YouTube channel? Uh, I'm gonna post- Do you, like, run with your phone? Get, get, get that in front of your face real quick. Sorry. Let's, let's get everything going.
• 0:18
  Do you run with your phone? So what I've done so far, I started last- You have a GoPro? Started last week. You put it on your head? No frills. My phone's with me 'cause I listen to podcasts anyway. Yeah.
• 0:29
  So I'll pull it out and just do, like, a two, three-minute clip- Get it out of my head... two, three-minute clip- Yeah... talking about whatever it is I'm doing that day. What are you talking about?
• 0:37
  Like- Like, what are you doing? Nothing. Besides running. Like, "Hey"- You're like, "Hey"-... "we're running." "I'm running." "Trail run day. Here's what we're doing." "I'm running." "Also training for the BFC."
• 0:45
  I mean, it's BS stuff. Do you have, like- Whatever is on the top of my mind... do you have a GoPro stick that you run with? Uh, no. I got nothing.
• 0:52
  Or, like, one of those sticks, and you got your phone, and you're running- No... and you got the thing in front of you? I, I don't have time to do another channel.
• 0:57
  And then you- So it's, it's literally, "Oh, I think I'll talk about my shoes," or- Yeah... "speed work day"- Yeah... or whatever it is that the goal is. It may run its course, but- Yeah... I don't know. See, I love that.
• 1:11
  I need, I need more bandwidth in my life. Well- I need hot takes. That's what I need. I need the platform and the freedom to do hot takes. Well, here's the thing.
• 1:20
  This is, this requires zero additional bandwidth 'cause I'm already running. Right. You're already running, spending hours a week- Right... out there. Right.
• 1:28
  Pull out the phone if you got something to say, and you f- and you'll figure out if you have something to say. Yeah. It's kind of like what we're doing here. Yeah.
• 1:34
  We're just getting our faces in front of the microphone and, and here we go. Yeah. And that's, that's the premise of this channel. And how many subscribers do you have to your running- Three. Three? Three. Who are they?
• 1:43
  You- Me [laughs], my buddy Brian-... Progress and Perfection and the-... and probably my mom [laughs]... the, the Excel channel, too? Oh, you know- Or is it just subscribers?...
• 1:50
  you know, I, I have been commenting from my other two channels. Oh, yeah. No, I noticed that. Yeah. I've noticed that. Dink, dink, dink, dink. Yeah, trying to generate this- [laughs]...
• 1:57
  trying to generate some action there. Get, get something going. So your mom and your buddy? Yeah, my... It's classic, man. Does your mom comment on your YouTube channel? No. See, it started, like, a year ago. Yeah.
• 2:09
  I did urban Barkley Fall Classic urban training. I did, like, six videos a year and a half ago, and then it's been sitting there. Hmm. Oh, yeah. Well, that's interesting. Yeah. Here goes nothing.
• 2:23
  I'll have to find you on the, uh- I'll send it to you... I'll have to find you. All right, well, thanks for the information. Indeed, sir. Always a pleasure. Page, page 39. Is that where that comes from? 39.
• 2:36
  Yep, top of 39. Top of 39. Thanks for the information. You want me to go? You wanna read? Uh, please feel free. All right. Please feel free.
• 2:46
  Uh, "That may be true of certain non-alcoholic people who, though drinking foolishly and heavily at the present time, are able to stop or moderate because their brains and bodies have not been damaged as ours were.
• 3:00
  But the actual or potential alcoholic, with hardly an exception, will be absolutely unable to stop drinking on the basis of self-knowledge.
• 3:10
  This is a point we wish to emphasize and re-emphasize, to smash home upon our alcoholic readers, as it has been revealed to us out of bitter experience. Let us take another illustration." And before we read Fred's story,
• 3:25
  uh, this seems to be-- I agree with what they're getting at here. This seems to be true of alcoholics, and e- they even say potential alcoholics. Right.
• 3:34
  Like, once we get to that point, self-knowledge doesn't seem to work. Right. Didn't work for me. Right. Like, I remember, I think I've talked about it before,
• 3:44
  having a conversation with one of my best buddies before, like, when I knew I had an issue, but before I was ready to get sober, and he was all about willpower. Like, "If you have an issue, just stop." Just stop.
• 3:59
  And for whatever reason, that seems to be one of the criteria for potential and real alcoholics. Like, it just doesn't work. How often do you see people come to your group with that idea? Uh, I,
• 4:15
  I think all of us carry that at the beginning to some degree or another.
• 4:20
  Like, it, it's very rare that I see somebody come in that hasn't already tried or is not actively trying to moderate or to just, uh, do better or, or do it on the- on their own terms. Yeah, that
• 4:36
  gets to a point where the-- you, you amass a certain amount of willingness to ask for help, and when I end up seeing people, and probably you too, when they're actually, "Okay, I gotta do something different.
• 4:47
  Maybe I'll let somebody into the fold." Right. Uh, but yeah, we all-- I don't know that I've ever met somebody who hasn't had some level of that. Sure. Some of us go a lot further with it than others. Yeah.
• 4:58
  Like- Yeah, I mean, it's very-- I, I agree with that. I mean, it's rare you meet somebody that possesses the humility right off the bat- Hmm...
• 5:07
  to just do away with their own willpower, their own ego, and, and allow the Lord to do the work. Typically, there's a, there's some stubbornness
• 5:20
  that gets mixed into the equation that more times than not prevents people from at least grasping sober-mindedness. It may not end up in a relapse. Mm-hmm.
• 5:30
  You know, but in, but, but to achieve that sort of sober-mindedness, I think there's, there's gotta be the surrender of will that, that this book will continue to parse out for us- Yeah... through the steps.
• 5:41
  Well, that it may be in the 12 and 12, that old adage of pain being the touchstone of all spiritual growth. Like, pretty, pretty true, especially in the beginning. Yep.
• 5:51
  Takes a certain amount of that for us to get to that, "Mm, okay." Yeah. "Let's do something different." Yeah, agreed. All right, we got another story here that the chapter kind of closes out with about old Fred.
• 6:02
  Fred is a partner in a well-known accounting firm. His income is good. He has a fine home, is happily married, and the father of promising children of college age.
• 6:13
  He has so attractive a personality that he makes friends with everyone. If ever there was a successful businessman, it is Fred. To all appearance, he is a stable, well-balanced individual, yet he's alcoholic.
• 6:27
  We first saw Fred about a year ago in a hospital where he had gone to recover from a bad case of jitters. It was his first experience of this kind, and he was much ashamed of it.
• 6:38
  Far from drinking, he was an alcoholic, he told himself. He told himself he came to the hospital to rest his nerves. Uh, excuse me, far from admitting he was an alcoholic.
• 6:50
  The doctor intimated strongly that he might be worse than he realized. For a few days, he was depressed about his condition. He made up his mind to quit drinking altogether.
• 7:01
  It never occurred to him that perhaps he could not do so, in spite of his character and standing. Fred would not believe himself an alcoholic, much less accept a spiritual remedy for his problem.
• 7:14
  We told him what we knew about alcoholism. He was interested and conceded that he had some of the symptoms, but he was a long way from admitting that he could do nothing about it himself.
• 7:25
  He was positive that his humiliating experience, plus the knowledge he'd acquired, would keep him sober the rest of his life. Self-knowledge would fix it. We heard no more of Fred for a while.
• 7:39
  One day, we were told he was back in the hospital. This time he was quite shaky. He soon indicated he was anxious to see us.
• 7:47
  The story he told is most instructive, for here was a chap absolutely convinced he had to stop drinking, who had no excuse for drinking, who exhibited splendid judgment and determination in all his other concerns, yet was flat on his back nevertheless.
• 8:05
  Before we dive into, to, uh, Fred's take here, I think it's, it's kind of remarkable that, like, it took him going to the hospital to begin
• 8:23
  the process of admittance that there might be a problem. Yeah. Like, that's... I don't know. I mean, in my experience, not my personal experience, but just with other people too, like, that's years- Yeah...
• 8:38
  in the making- That doesn't happen quick... to wind up in that sort of jittery state that they're talking about- Yeah... sort of the delirium tremens where you're, you know, virtually...
• 8:47
  That's, yeah, like, that's not a overnight thing. So, like, there were years of hoodwinking- Mm...
• 8:55
  and convincing himself that everything was fine prior to him ending up in the hospital, which I guess I'm bringing up because it's, like, the perfect, uh, proof of that sort of self-will. Like, "Nothing's wrong here.
• 9:07
  I've totally got this under control," until [fingers snap] I don't. Yeah. Like, it's, it's, it's, like, catastrophic, man. Yeah. You know?
• 9:16
  And I guess, like, on a certain level, that's all of our, all of ours experiences, but I just, I find that just remarkable. Oh, yeah, and I, I think about how lucky I was.
• 9:26
  I basically ran out of money and was, you know, just a wuss at the time and was afraid of experiencing pain.
• 9:35
  I got so lucky at that moment in time as a young person to reach out and be willing enough for just long enough to get wrapped into treatment and get the help I needed. Yeah. Like, it's usually this...
• 9:48
  Feel like this is the more common slow burn- Mm... downward descent, the downward spiral that are years in the making- Right... of just [laughs] continually getting worse.
• 10:00
  Well, especially I think, I don't know, maybe not, but, like, I think with alcohol in particular- Yeah... it is sort of the slow drip- Yeah... as opposed to sort of the cataclysmic,
• 10:11
  you know, slap in the face when it comes to, like- Mm-hmm... a hard substance like crack or coke or heroin or something like that. Yeah. It's typically just real just kind of like wham into your face. Mm-hmm.
• 10:22
  But I think you're right. Like, maybe there's something to the, the, the social acceptability or the cohort you run in that allows this sort of pervasive spirit of normalcy
• 10:34
  to just, yes, cut death by a thousand cuts- Mm... you know, ends up taking place before suddenly you wind up, uh, in the hospital. Curious about this too. Why do you think, why do you think stories resonate so much
• 10:52
  with addicts and alcoholics? Well, that's a human thing. Mm-hmm. I mean, and I'm, I'm kind of in some online marketing circles online the last year or so, and storytelling is like,
• 11:08
  everybody's like, "Oh, you gotta tell better stories. That's what attracts, you know, people. People wanna hear stories." Mm-hmm. And there's something to that.
• 11:16
  I think we're, we're hardwired as humans to, to both pass down our ancestry and our story- storylines, um, and, and be receptive to that because we can... Like, when I hear somebody's story,
• 11:31
  I can identify, I'm looking for places of it that I can identify with. Mm-hmm. And it makes me feel connected to you when you say some piece of your story that's like, "Oh, that's a parallel to mine."
• 11:45
  And so we, we latch onto that as addicts, and alcoholics more so, because we have such a tumultuous, traumatic past that I used to think was unique to me.
• 11:59
  And part of the, part of my recovery has been the opening of my eyes for, for years now, but in the beginning, the initial opening of my eyes that I'm, I'm not really that unique. I really am not. Mm-hmm.
• 12:13
  And in fact, there's been scores of other people in far worse situations, but we do have this commonality. Mm-hmm.
• 12:21
  And so I latch onto the, the pieces of their unique- their own unique stories that are all, um, uh, that, that are all similar in these regards. Mm-hmm.
• 12:31
  And, and it goes back to relationship, what we always talk about, relationship, fellowship, community- Mm-hmm... the things that solidify our sobriety- Mm-hmm... that seems so slippery in the beginning. Yeah.
• 12:45
  Yeah, I agree with that. I think we are, we're like hardwired to be receptive to, like, narrative and to story, and, and I think, like, particular types of stories.
• 12:56
  It's like the universal story that exists in the word- Mm-hmm... you know, is basically the story of all of us. And, and when we tap into those themes of, like, fall, wandering, redemption- Mm-hmm...
• 13:11
  or, like, it's the, it's the, uh, the story of the tyrant and leaving slavery into the chaos, and then being led by the pillar into the Promised Land. That's basically every story that we read in this book- Yeah...
• 13:25
  and that's basically every story of every addict who- Right... and alcoholic who's in recovery, was understanding that I'm under the rule of this tyrant, and suddenly I'm breaking free from that slavery,
• 13:39
  but I found myself in this chaotic wilderness, roaming around. And then suddenly you orient yourself to, you know, the pillar of smoke and the pillar of fire- Mm-hmm... that eventually leads you into that place.
• 13:54
  Um, and so I think, like, I think you're right. Like, there, there is this sort of almost this... I don't know what you, it's like in our genes, you know, that, that, that these stories resonate with us. Absolutely.
• 14:08
  It, it's kind of neat. Mm-hmm. All right, onward to Fred. All right, tell us about Fred. Uh, where are we? We heard no more of Fred for a while. Uh, we read that. Let him tell you- Let him tell you about it... about it.
• 14:22
  There we go. Let Fred tell you about it. All right, sorry about that. Go ahead, Fred. Let him tell you about it. Do you wanna do a voice for Fred? I was much... Well, I don't know.
• 14:28
  You probably- I don't know if I can do it... probably wouldn't. Would you like to do a voice for Fred? Uh, "I was much impressed- [laughs]... with the fellows about," like, no. Go ahead.
• 14:35
  "I was much impressed with what you fellows said about alcoholism, and frankly did not believe it would be possible for me to drink again.
• 14:45
  I rather appreciated your ideas about the subtle insanity which precedes the first drink, but I was confident it could not happen to me after what I'd learned.
• 14:56
  I reasoned I was not so far advanced as most of you fellows, that I'd been u- unusually successful in licking my...
• 15:03
  or I'd been usually successful in licking my other personal problems, and that I would therefore be successful where you men failed.
• 15:13
  I felt I had every right to be self-confident, that it would be only a matter of exercising my willpower and keeping on guard. In this frame of mind, I went about my business, and for a time, all was well.
• 15:27
  I had no trouble refusing drinks, and began to wonder if I had not been making too hard work of a simple matter. One day, I went to Washington to present some accounting evidence to a government bureau.
• 15:39
  I'd been out of town before during this particular dry spell, so there was nothing new about it. Physically, I felt fine. Neither did I have any pressing problems or worries. My business came off well.
• 15:51
  I was pleased and knew my partners would be too. It was the end of a perfect day, not a cloud on the horizon. I went to my hotel and leisurely dressed for dinner.
• 16:02
  As I crossed the threshold of the dining room, the thought came to mind that it would be nice to have a couple of cocktails with dinner. That was all, nothing more. I ordered a cocktail and my meal.
• 16:13
  Then I ordered another cocktail. After dinner, I decided to take a walk. When I returned to the hotel, it struck me a highball would be fine before going to bed. So I stepped into the bar and had one.
• 16:28
  I remember having several more that night and plenty next morning.
• 16:32
  I have a shadowy recollection of being in an airplane bound for New York and of finding a friendly taxicab driver at the landing field instead of my wife. The driver escorted me about for several days.
• 16:44
  I know little of where I went or what I said and did. Then came the hospital with unbearable mental and physical suffering." Dude, that's insane. Yeah. [snaps fingers] Like that.
• 16:56
  Like, well, I mean, it's, it's, it's quick, but then it's like, it, that's a bender, bro. Yeah. Like, for several days. Oh, he, he did it right, several days. Yeah.
• 17:05
  [laughs] Like, I'm just gonna be, like, blackout inebriated for- Yeah... several days. Yeah. Ghosted the wife. Like, that's- Took a taxi somewhere... hard. Yeah. Like, he went hard. Yeah. He went at it. He went hard.
• 17:18
  Fred doesn't mess around. Fred is just, goes hard, bro. [laughs] Like, a couple of cocktails. If, if he's gonna do it- And it's gonna be fine... he, he's gonna do it correctly.
• 17:26
  Then I'm gonna go have a couple highballs, and that'll be fine, and I'm gonna wake up in the morning and have a couple more highballs, and that'll be fine. Yeah. And then I'm gonna be like, "F the wife, bro."
• 17:35
  It'll be fine. I'm gonna meet this cabbie and just kill it. [laughs] Like, that's pretty insane. Insane is the right word. "As soon as I regained my ability to think, I went carefully over that evening in Washington."
• 17:51
  So presumably in the hospital, he's like, "What the crap?" Yeah. "Not only had I been off my guard, off guard, I had made no fight whatever against the first drink.
• 18:01
  This time I had not thought of the consequences at all." Hmm. "I'd commenced a drink as carelessly as though the cocktails were ginger ale.
• 18:10
  I now remembered what my alcoholic friends had told me, how they professed that if I had an alcoholic mind, the time and place would come." I would drink again.
• 18:21
  They'd said that though I did raise a defense, it would one day give way before some trivial reason for having a drink. Well, just that did happen, and more.
• 18:31
  For what I had learned of alcoholism did not occur to me at all. I knew from that moment that I had an alcoholic mind. I saw that willpower and self-knowledge would not help in those strange mental blank spots.
• 18:46
  I'd never been able to understand people who said a problem had been hopelessly defeated. I knew then it was a crushing blow. Two of the members of Alcoholics Anonymous came to see me.
• 18:59
  They grinned, which I didn't like so much, and then [chuckles] asked if I thought myself alcoholic and if I were really licked. I had to concede both propositions.
• 19:10
  They piled on me heaps of evidence to the effect that an alcoholic mentality such as I had ex- uh, an alcoholic mentality such as I had exhibited in Washington was a hopeless condition.
• 19:24
  They cited cases out of their own experience by the dozen. This process snuffed out the last flicker of conviction that I could do the job myself.
• 19:36
  Then they outlawed the spiritual answer and program of action which 100 of them had followed successfully.
• 19:42
  Though I'd been only a nominal church man, their propositions were not intellectually hard to swallow, but the program of action, though entirely sensible, was pretty drastic.
• 19:53
  It meant I would have to throw several lifelong conceptions out the window. That was not easy.
• 19:59
  But the moment I made up my mind to go through with the process, I had the curious feeling that my alcoholic condition was relieved, as in fact it proved to be. I'ma finish it up here. Yeah.
• 20:13
  It's a, a long read, but let's get to the end first. Yeah. Quite as important was the discovery that spiritual principles would solve all my problems.
• 20:22
  I've since been brought into a way of living infinitely more satisfying and, I hope, more useful than the life I lived before.
• 20:30
  My old manner of life was by no means a bad one, but I would not exchange its best moments for the worst I have now. I would not go back to it even if I could. Fred's story speaks for itself.
• 20:44
  We hope it strikes home to thousands like him. He felt only the first nip of the wringer. Most alcoholics have to be pretty badly mangled before they really commence to solve their problems. Okay, wait a minute.
• 20:56
  So like that's insane. He had felt only the first nip of the wringer? Yeah. What's the rest of the wringer look like? Like good Lord, this dude went hard in the paint like we just said. Yeah. Yeah. You know?
• 21:07
  So like it, it gives you a perspective on like just how bad the conditions were that these dudes were dealing with. They were really ba-- I think more often they were really bad. I know they were then.
• 21:21
  Uh, we see a lot, I do at least, you know, just from the area that we currently live in, a lot of higher bottom- That's right... uh, drunks that, that get, thankfully get there before the bottom really falls out. Mm-hmm.
• 21:35
  But stuff like this is a very, forgive the pun, sobering reminder- Mm... that it can get freaking bad. Yeah. Like that was the same train we were on. Mm-hmm.
• 21:46
  And we, we got off, I think we talked about it a couple weeks ago. Like you can get off, you don't have to take the elevator all the way down. Right. Right. Um, but, but it does. It gets- Mm-hmm... the wringer gets bad.
• 21:58
  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's pretty amazing. All right, finish it out there. Yeah. Many doctors and psychiatrists agree with our conclusions.
• 22:07
  One of these men, staff member of a world-renowned hospital, recently made this statement to some of us: "What you say about the general hopelessness of the average alcoholic's plight is, in my opinion, correct.
• 22:20
  As two of you men whose stories I've heard, as to two of you men whose story I have heard, there is no doubt in my mind that you were 100% hopeless apart from divine help."
• 22:32
  [both chuckling] There's b- a lot of encouraging doctor talk in, in this book. "Had you offered yourselves as patients at this hospital, I would not have taken you if I'd been able to avoid it.
• 22:44
  People like you are too heartbreaking. Though not a religious person, I have a profound respect for the spiritual approach in such cases as yours. For most cases, there's virtually no other solution.
• 22:58
  Once more, the alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense.
• 23:13
  His defense must come from a higher power." I mean, lots of absolutes. Yeah. The spiritual princil- principles would solve all my problems. Mm-hmm. 100% hopeless. Must come from a higher power. Um,
• 23:32
  and these dudes know what they're talking about.
• 23:34
  You know, it's not like they didn't, they weren't experiencing it, and I think that's part of the narratives that they're giving to us is like, "No, we've been in the trenches and we've seen it in the most hopeless situations, this thing come to fruition."
• 23:48
  Mm-hmm. You know, and this program work for people. But it's a, I mean,
• 23:56
  that I, I, I keep coming back to the, it's highlighted in the book, "Not only had I been off guard, I had made no fight whatever against the first drink." Yeah. "This time I had not thought of the consequences at all."
• 24:08
  That idea of like made no fight whatever- Mm-hmm... uh, it just resonates with me because like we've, and I think we've alluded to this prior and we'll continue to allude to it, but like we've got to be
• 24:22
  Prepared on a daily basis to fight so that these types of, like, I don't know, I'd call it a sneak attack. But you know what I'm saying, like, these types of vulnerabilities don't show up. Yeah.
• 24:36
  You know, we're always in the posture of fighting. But I think what that requires is an understanding that also we're always capable of being very dangerous. Mm-hmm.
• 24:48
  That's why we always have to be fighting, and when we think that we've got it licked or like, "I'm not dangerous anymore. I'm not... You know, I'm totally fine to, you know, go to the bar and drink water.
• 24:59
  It's gonna be f- you know." Yeah. Whatever. Uh, I think that's the kind of situation where suddenly your guard is down, and if you're not fighting, like, that's what happens. You become susceptible to the scenario.
• 25:15
  Mm-hmm. Much more so than normal. Yeah. I mean, that's why I think it's appropriate to just highlight, uh, in AA w- there's some basics of AA, like the one day at a time thing. Right. Well, what does that mean?
• 25:29
  That's catchy. Mm-hmm. People say that all the time. Well, there's some basic stuff that we suggest people do from the very beginning- Mm-hmm... every day. Right.
• 25:38
  Like, not Monday, Wednesday, Friday, like every freaking day. And what are they? What are some things that you help people with? And, and I'll give, I'll give a handful. Non-exhaustive. Mm-hmm.
• 25:47
  Hitting your knee- knees in the morning and praying. Mm-hmm. Even, and we'll talk about this in the next chapter, is we agnostics, even if you don't believe in God. Right.
• 25:56
  But going through the motions, praying, "God, keep me sober today." Right. "Will you please keep me sober?" Going through that motion. At night, thanking Him, "God, thank you for keeping me sober today." Mm-hmm.
• 26:06
  Even if I don't believe in God- Posture of humility- It's that posture... and then a response of gratitude. Yeah. Big time. So there's prayer.
• 26:14
  Some sort of recovery literature, like consuming some sort of recovery literature. For me, I mean, you see my couch over there is strewn. I've got Bibles and books and... But feeding yourself- Does the Bible-...
• 26:28
  with something... count as recovery literature? Uh, I would say it- For you... uh, for me it does, but it's not gonna be enough in the beginning. Because, I mean, we got cameras running today if, if the video works out.
• 26:41
  This is my big book that I've had- Yeah... for, what, 21, 22 years now. Mm-hmm. I kinda know this inside out, and so I don't sit here and read the big book every day anymore. There's nothing wrong with doing that, but...
• 26:56
  So I supplement it with other things. In the beginning, this needs to be, or the 24-Hour Day Book- Right... or the Daily Reflections.
• 27:02
  Some very specific, and whatever program you're in, related to that program I think is very important- Mm-hmm...
• 27:10
  to start saturating in that as well as in your faith, if you're coming back to a faith or you're involved with a faith walk. So that's, that's a long second thing there. To just start saturating with recovery stuff.
• 27:24
  Yeah. Talking to somebody else in recovery. Getting a sponsor and talking to him or her. Mm-hmm. Going to a meeting and being around other people. Right. Keeping a gratitude list. Mm-hmm.
• 27:37
  Um, there's just all these little things and, and what I usually do for people is I start suggesting with kinda those as a bare minimum, and then I get into more granular stuff as, as habits become formed. Right.
• 27:49
  But it is so critical- Mm-hmm... so that we don't get caught off guard in a moment where we're not protected. Right. Because all we are when we get sober, I was, was naked and confused- That's right...
• 28:03
  and just like a, an emotional thread- Right. Right... waiting for something to happen. Right. Yeah. Like, s- I'll, I'll, I'll
• 28:14
  describe, like, the difference for a lot of people I help, the difference between, like, abstinence and sober-mindedness, and it reminds me a lot of what you're saying.
• 28:23
  Like, in early sobriety, I'm abstinent, but I'm not yet sober-minded. Yeah. And you apply just like we'll read [laughs] you apply... You begin to apply these principles on a daily basis. It's like putting on the armor.
• 28:37
  Suddenly you become more sober-minded. Mm-hmm. And it's no longer a list of tasks that you're trying to complete. These are just daily habits that you engage in- Yeah... because, like, you're sober-minded now. Right.
• 28:51
  Um, so yeah, I think I, I agree with that, and I think, like, also to your point, I, I, I agree. Like, I mean, I love God's Word.
• 29:01
  In early recovery, I don't know that God's Word, it's kind of dangerous to say, but I don't know that it is enough to keep you reminded of why you're doing what you're doing. Yeah.
• 29:12
  Like, if I'm, if I'm in early recovery and I commit, like, "I'm gonna read the Bible in a year." Yeah. That's gonna be awesome, but suddenly you're gonna be sitting in, like, Numbers,
• 29:23
  and there's gonna be no context in Numbers that's going to remind you why you're doing what you're doing that day. Yeah.
• 29:31
  And that's where I think recovery literature, whether it's, yeah, whether it's the big book, whether it's the 12 by 12, whether it's the 24 Hour a Day, whether it's the devotional book that you're working on- Mm-hmm...
• 29:40
  I think where that, that, that comes in handy. Yeah. Because it serves to remind you that why I'm doing what I'm doing. Yeah. You know? So, like, yeah, I, I, I agree with you.
• 29:50
  Like, I try to touch, I try to touch, uh, God's Word. I try to touch recovery literature. Uh, you know, I'm in communication all day with people [laughs] so like that's good. Check.
• 30:00
  Yeah, but, like, the, the prayer piece is just crucial in the morning time and in the evening time. Um, but then I think the other thing, at least for me, is just sort of a commitment to, like, the whole body
• 30:14
  idea of recovery. Mm-hmm. Which I think also, like, it's the m- body-mind connection, so I think it does pertain to sober-mindedness. But, but sort of engaging in exercise- Mm...
• 30:25
  you know, for me is a big part of, like, my daily armor that I'm trying to put on, uh, that keeps me in that posture of fighting. Big time... you know?
• 30:34
  Um, and not to say, like, everybody's gotta go and run all the time, but something that keeps you engaged in sort of that, that- It's, it's a big help. Mm-hmm. When did you start running?
• 30:45
  Oh, the day I quit smoking cigarettes- Yeah... was the same exa- this is hilarious. It's the same exact day I stopped running, or I, I'm, I, I started running. Yeah.
• 30:53
  Uh, it was at the corner, there was a park at the corner of Old Canton and, uh, Lakeside? Lake something. Lakeland. Yeah, Lakeland. Right there at the corner. Yeah. And there was this park, and it was a mile-long loop.
• 31:07
  Yeah. And I was like, "All right, well, I can't smoke cigarettes and run, so, like, I'm gonna start running to stop smoking cigarettes." Yeah. And so I went out there
• 31:18
  and ran, like, maybe, like, maybe a quarter of a mile, and, like, was, like... [laughs] Ooh, ooh, bent over and was just like- Yeah... couldn't breathe. Yes. Walked the rest of the way.
• 31:28
  Went home that night, flushed all my cigarettes. Did you? I flushed them all. You know, didn't smoke after that. But went back to the park the next day, you know, made it another, like, quarter mile. Yeah.
• 31:41
  Ooh, ooh, walked the rest of it. But I was like, "Well, I mean, that's two miles in a week. That's more than I've done in the past, you know- Yeah... 10 years." Yes.
• 31:51
  Uh, and then, like, you know, over time just went back out there and, and slowly but surely, like, maybe, maybe a month into that, I signed up for a marathon. That's epic. I would not recommend that to anybody.
• 32:03
  But yeah, like, maybe three months into my running career, four months into my running career, I did my first marathon. I thought I was gonna die. That's awesome. Like, I thought I was dead. [laughs] Um,
• 32:13
  but yeah, I mean, that kickstarted it for me. And, like- Yeah... you know, I have an addictive personality. It's, it's, it's beyond just alcohol. It's, it's, it's just sort of this need for dopamine that my brain has.
• 32:25
  So I've got, I, I, I, I had to find something- Yeah... that would give me that, uh, dopamine fix and allow me to get to, like, a homeostasis level- Mm... without it destroying me in the process.
• 32:37
  Uh, and so, like, yeah, running was sort of a substitute for me. And people always make that comment to me. They're like, "Well, you're a running addict. You're an exercise addict."
• 32:45
  I'm like, "It's better than being a crack addict." I, I'll happily take that addiction. Better than me- ask my wife. [laughs] You know, it's better than me being an alcoholic. Yeah. So, like, we'll take it. Yeah.
• 32:53
  You know. Um, but I think, like, that's not for everybody. Mm. You know, some people are just purely alcoholics or purely drug addicts. Yeah. And once they get clean and sober, like, that need for dopamine is solved. Mm.
• 33:05
  Um, but for folks like me- Mm... that, that wasn't it. Yeah, I needed some type of replacement in there, uh, to sort of get my fix, so to speak.
• 33:16
  Well, and it's, uh, I think it's good to highlight that it's a both/and also. Like, you didn't stop your pursuit of your faith- That's correct. That's correct... or your recovery or- That's correct...
• 33:27
  it was, it was an additional component- Right... therein. Right. And that's what it's been for me too. Yes. It's like, I don't do that instead of. Right. I do that- In addition... in addition to. Right. Right.
• 33:38
  And I think that all the components are stronger because they're pieced together- That's correct... in, in healthy sober, mostly healthy sober. That's correct. And, uh, and that's a great point.
• 33:48
  And, and, and, like, yeah, it's, it's part of the, the quote armor that I, I try to put on each day to- Mm... to be well prepared for the fights to come. So it is, it, it's, it's a piece of the puzzle for me.
• 34:01
  Um, but I think also, like, if it's just a trade, then it's still like idolatry. I'm trading one idol for another idol. Uh, and yeah, I don't think that's, uh, I don't think that's wise. Mm.
• 34:13
  You know, so yeah, I think the- Yeah... the, the right way to view that is, is with a, a lens on incorporation. Anything stick out to you with Fred? Well, uh, our last statement here. Mm-hmm. I'll read it again. Mm.
• 34:29
  "Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a higher Power." How, how do you, how do you talk with folks about this? Um...
• 34:48
  Why, why do we have to have a higher power? And we'll, we'll dive into the weeds with this as we get into the next few sessions. Right. Right. Well, so,
• 34:57
  so here's how I diagram this out, especially as it pertains to the steps.
• 35:02
  Uh, because step three is a, is a big-time step, and it's asking you, um, to give over, to literally turn over my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand Him.
• 35:17
  And to do that, I have to know several things, and I have to, mainly, I have to know who God is. Mm.
• 35:24
  And I have to know that God is for me, and God is not against me, and that God is trustworthy, and God does have, uh, my best interest in mind.
• 35:33
  I see it as an absolutely, and you can totally disagree with me, I've got strong opinions, an absolutely foolish thing to put, to turn my will and my life over to the care of the tree. Yeah.
• 35:50
  Yeah, and we've talked about this. That's just seems- This door, this doorknob theology being, uh- The stupidest thing I've ever heard. Yeah.
• 35:57
  Like, now this, so the tree, I've just turned my will and my life over to the care- Yeah... of the tree. That makes absolutely no sense to me. You gotta, you gotta... You can't have it both ways.
• 36:10
  Either it's this is serious, and we're really doing this, and in which case, to your point, and I agree, we need to know what we're turning it over to. Right. Or it's just a whimsical thing. It's like, whatever. Mm-hmm.
• 36:22
  Pick a doorknob, pick a tree. Right. Right. Y- yeah, the idea, I just, I just have a hard time subscribing to the idea that your higher power can be the doorknob- Mm... or it can be the tree. Yeah.
• 36:32
  You just have to be willing to turn your will and your life over to the care of it. I see that step as, as having so much more gravitas attached to it than I think people give, give it credit for. Mm.
• 36:45
  'Cause to me, it's, it's literally the moment you, you... For a lot of us, it's, it's the moment you sort of- Surrender over to Christ. Yeah. It's like the conversion- Mm-hmm... experience.
• 36:59
  And, like, that to me is something that is, like, holy and that is something that is sacred and that is something that, like, should not be entered into lightly or, or whimsically or,
• 37:10
  uh, the significance of the step shouldn't be diminished with just this sort of flippant, like, "Let's just get through the step. Just, your higher power can be the door," and like that's fine. Mm.
• 37:22
  What were we doing in step two? If that's, if, if, if the door is gonna be my higher power, like, what was step two about then? "Came to believe that a Power greater than myself could restore me to sanity."
• 37:38
  So wait, so I came to believe that the door could restore me to sanity? Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. Like it just- Yeah... it just doesn't make sense. And so I think like,
• 37:48
  to your question, when I work with people, I sit on step two and sit on step three for a long time. Yeah. Because I want people to be able to know the God of the Bible- Yeah...
• 38:01
  and know the Jesus of the New Testament and know the power that the Holy Spirit has so that they can enter into step three with the confidence and assurance that like, "No, God is for me." It's 100%. Like,
• 38:18
  God is for me and He is my defense and I can trust Him to be my defense. So that's my, that's my long- Yeah... my long answer to that.
• 38:26
  And, and I've, I've come at this from a couple different angles over the years and I used to be a little bit more liberal with it.
• 38:34
  Um, especially, you know, when I, when I first sobered up, first went through these steps with my first sponsor. I wasn't going back into the Bible. Mm.
• 38:43
  Like I was really treating AA as my religion at that time for a, a couple years initially and I would dabble back in before I really started seeking the faith again.
• 38:54
  And one of the things I adopted early on was, uh, it wasn't the tree approach but it was close to it. Mm.
• 39:01
  Because we explained if somebody had some issue with step three specifically, well, uh, this is just a decision to work the rest of the steps. Mm-hmm. Think of it in those terms. Mm-hmm.
• 39:12
  If you're held up, don't let, don't let God hold you up. Let's,
• 39:18
  what you just said w- is what I did, let's make forward progress here and step into it and see if God is real and we're gonna position ourselves for Him to work in and through us, then He will begin to change us as we go through this.
• 39:32
  Mm-hmm. And I don't know if that's exactly the right approach today. It's, it's not exactly how I approach it although I still use that phrase- True...
• 39:41
  uh, pretty freely when, when trying to explain especially the third step to people. Um, just a layman's term. Um, I appreciate how steadfast you are on- Mm... this point though 'cause it's, it's recently given me...
• 39:57
  And if anybody can hear my son say, [laughs] "I pooped." [laughs] He is like, "Go." Is that what he's saying? I'm gonna have to go- That's awesome... help him in, in the potty in- Yeah... just a second. That's awesome.
• 40:08
  Help him home. Uh, but it, but I've appreciated your steadfastness with that because I think that's really the stance. I mean that's, that's where our belief lies. Yeah. That's where our hope is.
• 40:20
  [shouts] [laughs] And I'm gonna go get him. I think he really needs some help. I think he's stuck on the potty. Yeah. We all need a little help- Yeah. Yeah... every now and then.
• 40:30
  No, I mean I, I appreciate it and I can understand, like, that, you know, there's, there's lots of ways to get, to get sober and there's, there's lots of ways to become sober-minded.
• 40:47
  But I think the Bible makes it clear there's only one way to heaven and there's only one way into right relationship with the Lord. And I think that's just where my passion- Yeah...
• 40:58
  in that part of the step and that part of the exploration comes from, is because my hope for, for, for you, for, for people in recovery is not just sober-mindedness but it's like eternity. Yeah.
• 41:12
  Um, and it's- What's, what's the ultimate point here? Right. Right. Yeah, and I get it. Like, sober-mindedness can lead to eternity.
• 41:21
  It's kinda like what you're saying, like if let's just get you over the hurdle and- Mm... get you engaged in the process.
• 41:26
  But I also at the same time, you know, you never know when people are going out and you never know when people are gonna die or OD or whatever it may be. And, and like,
• 41:37
  I don't know, I just feel like it's, it's, it, it's sort of, I don't know if duty's the right word. It's like my call as a believer- Mm... to have that type of stance and to like encourage them towards that.
• 41:50
  Um, I mean I've, yeah, just in my business I've worked with too many guys that have gone out and- Yeah...
• 41:54
  and it's like, man, you wanna give them that opportunity to get into that right relationship with the Lord so that if something tragic does happen, like, you know, praise the Lord we'll be hugging in heaven. Well said.
• 42:08
  At least there's the choice. Mm-hmm. Choice presented. Right. Word. All right, on that, on that note. On that. [laughs] On that note. On that note, go wipe- On that note... your son's bottom. All right?
• 42:20
  Go help this poor guy out. He's freaking hurting in there. He's- How'd you even get in here? He's got- There he is... poop all over his hands and it's all over his- Oh, he, he just wants to see what we're doing now.
• 42:30
  Yeah. That's awesome. All right. Cool, man. Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. Until next time. Indeed. I got some shoes to buy now. Yeah, you do. I did. I turned you onto those.