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Wander the World: So What’s in a Name? How well-known places got their names · Wander the World with Pippa Hudson

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: This is Cape Talk. Now, a little bit of a
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: different approach today, because rather than visiting an individual destination,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: we are contemplating how many of our well-known destinations obtained
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: their names. With me in studio is Dr. Malcolm Fenta,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: a former teacher and high school principal who's had a
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: lifelong fascination with both history and language. And those two
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: passions have combined in a wonderful way in his new
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: book called So What's in a Name, which takes a
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: look at some of the interesting and quirky stories behind
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: some of our South African place names. It's been, I think,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: a decade since we had you in studio, Malcolm. Great
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: to have you back again.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is a decade, yes. Thank you. Thanks for
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: inviting me.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: It's a pleasure, and it's a really fun book, so
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to exploring it. And I want to
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: say to listeners, if there is a place whose name
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: you have always wondered about, this is your chance to
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: find out what the origin story is. Do send us
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: a message. on 0725671567 and ask your question. I'm going
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: to try and keep the conversation focused as locally as possible.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: But if you've got a very out there question about
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: somewhere further afield, feel free to ask and we'll give
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Malcolm a go and see if he knows the answer.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Before we get to any of that, though, I mean, Malcolm,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: when did you first become curious about the subject of
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: place name origin stories?
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: I think I've always been interested because of my interest
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: in history and language. So the two things I go
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: together and I've always wondered when I go to a place,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: why is it called that? Why is it called that?
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: And I think about 2016, when I finished the last
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: book that you interviewed me on, I thought I want
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: to write something else. And I found on my computer
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: about two years ago that I put some stuff together
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: and I thought, OK, now's the time to write it
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: up and explore it further.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: I don't claim to be an expert on place names, though.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: I just claim to be a person who's very curious
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: about place names.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: And has collected an awful lot of information as a result.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, it must have been difficult to decide where
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: do you set the boundaries for a book like this? Because,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, you could go global, you could go national,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: you could go hyperlocal. You could even go down to
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: the sort of the street name level. But I would
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: imagine that would take you another century to write one.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. So, South Africa, of course, I deliberately left out
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: street names because there are millions of those. But it
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: does cover the whole country. And then what happened was
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: I would find something which interested me and then it
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: almost took its own route. It would lead me literally
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: a route or a theme route or something or other.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: And so I kind of just wandered around and then
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: decided to put it into categories of rivers and mountains
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: and towns and that sort of thing.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: And the provinces and the stories, etc. So lots of
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: very interesting rabbit holes to go down in this book.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Not a travel guide per se, but it would be
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: a really wonderful book to take with you if you
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: are doing a road trip somewhere.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: It would indeed.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: To use as a sort of an extra resource to
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: add another dimension to the trip.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Yes. Or even to stimulate your own interest in finding
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: out what a place is called, even if it isn't
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: in the book. Okay. So.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: One last question before we dive into the first listener questions,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: which are already streaming in. Obviously, the significance of names
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: can be potentially politically very charged, especially in a country
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: like South Africa. Places are often renamed following conquest and colonization.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: We've seen obviously a wave of renaming of towns and streets,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: et cetera, in South Africa. Makes for quite a delicate
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: subject matter in some places in South Africa.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: It does. And it features in the book every now
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: and then. Particularly the Eastern Cape, which you and I
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: both come from. In fact, if you go, you think
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: that your GPS has gone AWOL or got me drinking
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: something or other because you could get lost completely and utterly. But,
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: you know, it's perfectly natural that people should feel, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I don't belong here because these names are all imposed
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: on me. And then, of course, there's been a move
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: to change the name. It's very controversial. One understands the
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: need to do, but then people say, what about the cost?
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Are you not wasting money there? Others say identity and
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: belonging is more important. And so it becomes a very
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: difficult thing. And then there's the other thing is whose culture?
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: You know, a lot of the Eastern Cape, it's mainly
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: because of names which have been imposed now. in place
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: of the old colonial names. But I mean, of course,
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: they replaced the Koi and the San. So it's not
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: a black-white thing completely and utterly, but it's a controversial thing,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: but it's understandable. Yeah.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: And I mean, as you point out in the book,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: the longer you've lived in a place under one name,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: the harder it can be to adjust to the change.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, I was thinking the other day,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: I now talk about Philip Hosanna Drive completely instinctively. I'd
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: kind of forgotten what Duval Drive was until my folks
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: came to visit and said, oh, we'll go the top
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: way over Duval Drive. And I had a moment of, what?
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: And then I thought, well, of course, you know, you
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: lived in Cape Town many decades ago. That's what you
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: knew it as. One can adapt and one does adapt.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Yes. But it takes a while though. I mean, everybody asks,
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: where was I born? I would still say Utenaig. In fact,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: I'm right off the map because I was born in
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Utenaig which is Karicha. I was educated in Grahamstown, which
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: is Makanda. Sorry, teaching in PE, which is Kaberga. And
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: now I live in Cape Town. Well, I actually live
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: in Durban, which mercifully changed its name many years ago
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: from Pampunkraal. Imagine saying I live in Pampunkara, but fortunately
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: the people saw the light many years ago. Okay.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Malcolm, thanks for that introduction. So the book is called So,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: What's in a Name? And we'll tell you where to
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: find it at the end of this interview. But let's
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: get stuck into some of the questions that are already
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: coming through on the WhatsApp. And Caro, thank you for
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: this question because I have learned something already from the
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: question itself. She'd like to know the origin, who was
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: the Johannes in Johannesburg. But she adds this. I've heard
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: there are two Johannesburgs in the USA, one in Michigan
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: and the other in California. And I looked at that
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: and I thought, really? Surely not. But true as word.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: There are two very small settlements of Johannesburg, one of
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: them in Michigan, one in California.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Who knew?
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Caro knew, apparently. But the origin of our own, Egole, Johannesburg?
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Well, there are various. In the book, you'll see there
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: are various Johannesburgs. that they think are possible. There's a
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: very good book with a dictionary of South African players
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: named Peter Raper, the expert. And he narrows it down
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: to two of them, most likely the two of them.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: But it's like Pretoria, which Pretorius was it? In fact,
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: many places people don't actually know. And they just speculate.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: I think what happened was, you know, a It's different
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: if you establish a new suburb now and it's town
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: planning and you choose a name and you record it.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: But I think what happened there was people just went
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: there and started calling it a name. And then it
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: was only formalized years later. People said, why was it
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: called that? And no one could remember or they'd speculate.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: But I mean, a lovely one is Bloemfontein. I mean,
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: it's either a Mr. Bloom, they think, or an ox
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: named Bloem. which is not very exciting, but most people
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: like to think Bloemfontein, you know, flower fountain.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: I've always thought Bloemfontein. Yes, yes.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: So I've actually been wrong in thinking that potentially all
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: of my life.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Who knew?
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Okay. Keith raises an interesting one for us locally. He says,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Gordon's Bay. I've heard that the stones on the mountain
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: that spell out GB don't actually stand for Gordon's Bay.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: They stand for General Butter, don't they?
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: General Butter, which was a naval base. Yes, that's right.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: I only found that out myself when I was researching.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: that that's something very interesting.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so the GB isn't for Gordons Bay, it's for
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: General Boerter, but who was the Gordon that Gordons Bay
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: was named after?
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Do you know? I do know, but I've forgotten now.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: I think it was General Gordon himself, I think, actually. Okay.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: But I'm not 100% sure now. On that one. Okay.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: We'll get back to you on that one, Keith.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: Okay. Then Ryan asking one, I think I know the
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: answer to this one. He's wondering about the history of
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: the name Robben Island. Is it not Robben for seals?
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, the seals. Okay. It's the Afrikaans.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Afrikaans word for the seals that were swimming around and
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: basking on the shores. Ryan, thanks for that one.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: I think most people think it's Robben, R-O-B-B-I-N.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: But it's Robben, the Afrikaans name for seals. Now, the
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: one I should have started with is our own Mother City. And, Malcolm,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, this tickles me. I know it's always quipped
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: that it's called the Mother City because it takes nine
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: months to get anything done here. But what's the actual
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: origin of the nickname?
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  Speaker 2: Well, it's because it was the first city in South Africa.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: It became the mother of all other cities. So it
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: literally starts there. Okay.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Okay. If you'd like to know about a particular place name,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: please do send a WhatsApp to 072-567-1567. We'll meander around
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: the country in the meantime, but if there are specific
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: origin stories you're looking for, please feel free to ask them. Malcolm,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: I know you had many years as principal at Edgemead High.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: What was it on the edge of?
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Well, it's the edge of a mead, which just means
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: an open piece of ground between there's a heritage site
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: and Portazook, which is where Edgemead was built. So, It
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: sounds very grand, but it's actually just on the edge
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: of a mead.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Of a field.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: Of a field, yes.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Okay. Edge mead sounds a little bit more proper, doesn't it? Okay.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: Lucy is loving the Pampunkral story about Durbanville. She says,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: what's the origin there? Was there a pumpkin farm?
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: There was a pumpkin coral. In fact, where the city
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: hall is now, it was in that area. It used
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: to be where the Oxbergen stopped to refresh on the way. Okay.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: And then people thought it didn't sound so grand, and
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: so they asked to... Benjamin Durbin. So it was actually
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: called Durbin, first of all, but it was confusing because
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: there were two Durbins, both of them at that stage
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: with the apostrophe Durbin. And then they decided to make
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: a Durbinville, which is many names in Africa, a ville
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: on the end of them. And so it's the smaller Durbin, Durbinville.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Okay. And ville in French is a town. That's right.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: On the other side of the Buddha Wall's curtain, as
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: we call it.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Love it. Leon, Leonie, sorry, is wondering about Bartskirdesbos. Do
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: you know that story?
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: No, I don't know that one, no.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's one we're going to have to do some
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: research on.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Leonie.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you for that. The one that tickled me going
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: through your book was the story of Gneisner, because I
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: realized I'd never even stopped to think, in all the
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: years I've been going there, why is Gneisner called Gneisner?
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: It means fern or fern, as from the Koi, N-A-I-Z-A-N,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: which is probably why we don't pronounce it. The K
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: in Nijsne, because the original pronunciation was Nijsne. So, I mean,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: if you go to Nijsne, you'll see lots of ferns.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: So, N-A-I-Z-N-A was the Koi Koi word for fern.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Really, I can't believe I'd never stopped to think about
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: that to this day after decades of going there.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I must admit, I also have been there
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: so many times and wondered. My research told me the answer.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Okay. The ferns. Who knew? Gareth is asking, is Weinberg
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: called that because of the winemaking around there?
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: It was where my friend Riebig established a wine farm
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: in that area. Okay. All right.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: So absolutely spot on, Gareth. Trevor says, I find it
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: so interesting that Woodstock was originally Papendorp. Do you know
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: anything about that origin story?
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I had heard it, but I don't know the details
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: behind it.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, so that's another one.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: Lots of them have changed their names over the years.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: And sometimes inconsequential people. It's just perhaps a farmer or
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: someone who happened to be on the council or something.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: And you think. you know, I know it must be
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: so important. Then you get a bit of a letdown actually.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: That it was actually just a random person. For anybody
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: who's coming in midway to this conversation, our guest is Dr.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: Malcolm Fenter, who has just released a new book called
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: So What's in a Name? A quirky look at what
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: lies behind South African place names. And it's a great
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: deal of fun to go down the rabbit hole or
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: the multiple rabbit holes this book offers because Malcolm has
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: divided it up very sort of practically in a reader-friendly
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: way into looking at the provinces, looking at town names
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: within the different provinces, river names, mountain names, et cetera,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: all of them South African. If you've got questions around
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: particular parts of South Africa, you're very welcome to ask them.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: I knew somebody was going to ask about Tokai. David,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: wondering if you know the origin of the name of
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: the suburb, Tokai?
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: It comes from overseas, and I can't remember exactly now,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: but it is... A name of a forest from somewhere overseas.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: In fact, people don't quite know why the name got there,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: but it got there. It's one of those things, as
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: I said earlier, people sometimes just put a name out
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: of a hat or someone liked the place. A lot
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: of the names, of course, come from other places. So
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: you find many of our names are people came from overseas,
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: brought the name with them. And it's established to the name.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: They were in Berlin and all these sort of places
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: just from overseas.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, as they did in America. If one thinks about
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: New York, New Brunswick, et cetera, they took the names
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: with them. Keith saying the names he loves that he
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: finds very beautiful. Horniclip Bay and Titty's Bay. Well, we
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: all know why Titty's Bay is Titty's Bay. Horniclip Bay,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Dogs Rock Bay. I wonder if there's a rock that
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: the dogs used to visit regularly. I don't know if
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: anybody knows the origin story of that. On that one,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: please do let us know. I enjoyed being reminded of
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: the origin story of some of the Cape Town townships,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: especially Lunga, the oldest in the city. Won't you remind
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: us of the origin there?
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, well, it's called the Sun. It's interesting, the townships generally,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: if you think sometimes the miserable lives of many people
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: live there, but most of the townships may be a
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: form of escape, you know, Sun and then Moon and
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: New Home and these sort of places. Many of them have...
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Very positive sounding names. Or it is my hope for
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: something like that. And maybe people lift their spirits a bit.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Or it was the apartheid regime trying to make up.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Trying to sell it as something positive.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: It wasn't as bad as people might think it was.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Probably the latter.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: But so Lange meaning son. Nyange meaning moon.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: There is a chief whose name comes into a longer
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: version of his name. Langevillele or something like that. who's
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: also honored through it.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Through that name.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, interesting.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Guguletu being our pride and Kyalitsha, new home. Okay, what
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: else have we got here? Ryan asking, is this the Dr.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Fenter from Edgemead High? It most certainly is. Ryan, hello.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Might be one of your former pupils there. You talked
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: about there being two Durbins at one point. Lisa asking,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: who were Harry Smith and Lady Smith that we had
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: so many of those?
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Well, he was the governor of the Cape and he
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: named many places after himself. many, many places, and most
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: of them have changed now, but he really went around
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: the country naming places after himself. His wife was a
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Spanish princess or something like that that he married, and
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: he loved her, obviously, and named places after her. So
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: we had Ladysmith and Ladysmith and that sort of thing.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: One of them has changed, but the Western Cape one
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: is still retained, but he He went from the rampage
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: to naming places after himself.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, clearly.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Big ego, big ego.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Very, very, something to prove to the rest of the
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: world by all accounts. Okay, well, I love it when
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: listeners answer the questions we can't answer. I've had both
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Paul and Nazima writing in with the answer on Tokaj.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: It's a range of hills in Hungary.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: The Tokaj, with a J on the end in Hungarian.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: And then Anita has heard a version of Bart Skierabosz.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: She said, I've heard that a Bartskeder is a spider
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: that in the old days harvested beard hair from a
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: sleeping farmer. The boss is where the Bartskeder spider lived.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: I once went to the Swartland Wine Festival and there
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: was a Boere band called Bartskeder's Boss Orkest playing there. Okay.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: We don't know if it's true or not, but it's
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: a lovely story, Anita. Let's take it for now. Yeah,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: Irene also saying she had heard that Tokaj had Hungarian connections.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: So there we go, the Tokaj Hills in Hungary. Thank you,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Nazima and Paul, for putting us straight on that one. Okay,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: let's see. Karin is wondering if you know the origin
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: of Firmaklakate at the Davenhawks River. No. Firmaklakate, yeah.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: That means Africa.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: This is not very good, unfortunately. Firmaklakate is comfort or?
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: I think so, yes. Firmaklakate, yeah. I think so. It's
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: positive anyway.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a positive association. I don't know if there's
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: more to it than that, Karin, but thanks. Yeah, Fran
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: also saying a wine growing area of Hungary in the
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Takai Hills. So there we go. A kind of a
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: second Weinberg just in Hungarian.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: This is a very interesting question from Susan on the email.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: And it takes us a little bit outside of South Africa,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: but maybe you want to give it a stab. She says,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I know that the concept of America is named after
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Amerigo Vespucci. She says, I know Bolivia is for Simon Bolivar.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Are there any other existing countries that are named after people?
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: I can't think of any. I can't think of any.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: I'm sort of sitting scanning.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: I mean. Yes. One is Puerto Rico. That's a place
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: with a person's name. I wouldn't know.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Interesting one.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Okay. If anybody can think of another example. So we
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: know about America. We know about Bolivia. Are there other
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: countries that are named after an existing person? Ryan's saying Australia.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: That's a reference to direction though. South, right? The Australis
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: is the south. So that's named for the continent in
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: the south. My producer tells me Firmak Lakate is entertainment
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: or amusement in English. So a place of great amusement, hopefully, Karin.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: I hope it is so. I think it is so
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: from what I've heard of the place. I've never been
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: there myself. We're in conversation with Dr. Malcolm Fenter about
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: South African place names. You've got a couple of minutes
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: left to get a question in if you want to
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: ask about a particular spot. Love this one from Phil.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: He wants to know where does the Mzanzi come from?
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Mzanzi for sure.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: It just means south.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Is it also south?
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: It literally means south.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, Mzanzi for sure, the south for sure. Okay, another
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: iteration of the same sort as Australia. What about St.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Francis?
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: We're going a little bit outside of our immediate vicinity here,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: but Maggie asking about St. Francis Bay and Cape St. Francis.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Why did we end up with a town named after
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: the patent scent of animals?
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Well, St. Francis was a priest, and so they were
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: celebrating his birthday or something like that.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think it was the Portuguese who named it.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: A lot of the coastal areas are named after the Portuguese.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: They moved all around the coast. And if they arrived
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: on his birthday, they would name something after a particular
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: priest or something from their background.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Of significance, yeah. I remember Pater Noster, the prayer of
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: thanks for the sailors who were washed ashore, who survived
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: the shipwreck, for example.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Is an example there.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Is there a particular favorite story of yours in this book, Malcolm,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: that you'd like to mention that we haven't got to?
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: One of the most amusing ones, in a way, is
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Mama Lodi, which is said to be named after Paul
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Kruger because apparently he used to imitate bird songs and
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Mama Lodi was meant to suggest imitating bird songs. Others
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: who didn't like him say, He was asthmatic and so
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: he just wheezed as he was caught after that. But
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I think people prefer the other one. A very nice
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: one was this phoenix, which was named by the original
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: man who established a mission station there. And the sugar cane,
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: you know, they always burn the sugar cane so it
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: can regrow. And the sugar cane feels burnt. And then
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: out came the beautiful new sugar cane. So the phoenix
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: arising from the flames from the ancient phoenix. myth.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: That's rather beautiful.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: It is a beautiful one, yes. And of course people
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: talked about it in 2021 when Phoenix was burnt again
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: and then It had to rise from.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: The ashes again.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Paul and DJ and a few others
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: doing some research for us on the question about which
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: countries are named after people. Saudi Arabia is one of them,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: named after the ruling Saud bin Mohammed.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: That's correct. I do mention it in the book, yes.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: America, we've already mentioned. San Marino, named after St. Marinus,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: a Christian stonemason who founded the republic. Dominican Republic named
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: after St. Dominic. Mozambique apparently derives its name from Moussa
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: bin Beek, who was a 16th century Arab trader. And
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: then Mauritius and the Seychelles, both named in the case
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: of the Seychelles after a French politician. And Mauritius named
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: in honor of the Prince of Orange, Maurice of Nassau.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, I remember Seychelles, I mentioned in the book as well,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: when I talk about origins.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you for those. Thank you. Just a couple of
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: the ones that have been coming through. Philip and DJ.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: DJ also adding the Philippines after King Philip II of Spain.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: I should have got that one. Okay. We're almost out
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: of time, and we haven't said the very important thing,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: which is where our listeners can get a hold of
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: the copy of this book. Malcolm, if they've been listening
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: to this with glee and want to read more and
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: explore more, where do they get a copy?
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Well, if you're near the CBD, there are two bookshops,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: the Book Lounge and Clark's Bookshop. They've got supplies. Okay. Otherwise,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: they need to send an email to me. And my
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: email address is drv, for Dr. V, at worldonline.co.za. Or
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: they can WhatsApp me at 083-383-2993. And I'll send them
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: a flyer. And then it tells them how to pay
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: for the book and also the courier service that I use.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: They've got a choice of two courier services. Okay, for delivery.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: One cheaper than the other. It's up to them. So
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: it's either my email address or my WhatsApp. And then
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I will respond, sending them the details. And then once
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: they've ordered, I will make sure it gets delivered to them.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: So it's drv at worldonline.co.za or 083-383-2993. I know some
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: of you might be listening in the car, unable to
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: take down those details. I have them on record. So
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: you're welcome to send me an email after the show
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: and I'll gladly pass them along if you're looking for them.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: An absolute delight to chat to you about this. Thank
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: you so much for joining us and all the best
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: for the success of the book.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Dr.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Malcolm Fenton.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Thank you.