Latest / Vox Novus with Victor Fuhrman / Erica Bassani – Women in Love with the Divine

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Erica Bassani – Women in Love with the Divine · Vox Novus with Victor Fuhrman

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Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the new voice. Vox Novus, the new dimension.
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Speaker 1: Vox Novus, thought and movement leaders who will share from
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Speaker 1: their experience and offer tools to help us navigate our
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Speaker 1: rapidly changing world. My name is Victor Furman. Welcome to
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Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the new voice. After years of Buddhist practice,
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Speaker 1: including a year living in a monastery, my guest this
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Speaker 1: week on Vox Novus, Erika Bassani, began looking for guidance
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Speaker 1: that spoke to her experience as a woman. Her encounters
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Speaker 1: explored spiritual authority within patriarchal traditions and the everyday questions
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Speaker 1: that remain alongside devotion— how to listen to the body, live
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Speaker 1: with uncertainty, and stay open through loss and change. Erica
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Speaker 1: Bassani is the founder of Women Awakening Project, which shares
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Speaker 1: women's spiritual wisdom through interviews, writing, and contemplative gatherings. She
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Speaker 1: also created Awakening Softness, a space for embodied presence and
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Speaker 1: inner listening. In interviews, she explores why women's voices in
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Speaker 1: spiritual leadership matter and and how tenderness can inform the
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Speaker 1: ways we respond to the world. Her website is womenawakeningproject.com,
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Speaker 1: and she joins me this week to share her path
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Speaker 1: of discovery and book, Women in Love with the Divine,
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Speaker 1: A Seeker's Exploration of Faith, Practice, and Feminine Power. Please
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Speaker 1: join me in welcoming to Vox Novus, Erika Busani.
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Speaker 2: Hello, Victor. Thank you so much for inviting me.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us and sharing your wonderful story,
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Speaker 1: your amazing book, Women in Love with the Divine. So, Erika,
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Speaker 1: please share with our listeners your path prior to your
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Speaker 1: spiritual quest.
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Speaker 3: So, actually, my spiritual quest, I have to say, started
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Speaker 3: relatively early. I would say just after high school.
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Speaker 2: And....
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Speaker 3: So I started meditating. I was looking for something that
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Speaker 3: I was not finding in the world around me. And
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Speaker 3: the meditation helped me a lot. It was really a
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Speaker 3: good way to begin with. And then I joined a
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Speaker 3: monastery of Buddhist monks from the Theravada Buddhist tradition. So
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Speaker 3: I spent some time in this monastery just really learning about,
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Speaker 3: you know, the practice, the spiritual practice, a bit of
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Speaker 3: 360 degrees.
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Speaker 2: I would say.
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Speaker 3: And that was also a very good school. But you
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Speaker 3: asked me about my life prior to the spiritual path.
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Speaker 3: And yeah, I.
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Speaker 2: Was just, you know, a normal teenager, I would say. Just, uh, happy, uh,
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Speaker 2: good at school. Like, uh, I love to read a lot.
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Speaker 3: I was reading maybe some spiritual books already when I
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Speaker 3: was in high school. And I have to say my
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Speaker 3: father is pretty as spiritual guy. So maybe he was
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Speaker 3: already sending me some messages, you know, before my actual
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Speaker 3: spiritual journey consciously started.
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Speaker 1: And what was your faith background prior to your quest?
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Speaker 2: So I'm from Italy.
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Speaker 3: My parents are Christian, but I would say they don't
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Speaker 3: really practice. So we were like, I went through the
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Speaker 3: whole education as a Christian, but I was feeling that
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Speaker 3: actually the way we were practicing was not really embodied
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Speaker 3: and sincere.
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Speaker 2: It was more like a form instead of a substance.
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Speaker 3: So that was my upbringing.
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Speaker 1: Now, please tell us about your eight years of Buddhist
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Speaker 1: practice and why this felt incomplete.
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Speaker 3: So, as I mentioned before, I experienced a little bit
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Speaker 3: of the life in the monastery, living with the monks
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Speaker 3: and later also with the nuns of this Buddhist Theravada tradition.
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Speaker 3: And this practice was incredibly transforming. So it was just
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Speaker 3: so beautiful for me to be able to have the
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Speaker 3: time and the space to just be in the monastery,
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Speaker 3: literally observing my mind and learning about consciousness and cultivating
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Speaker 3: the qualities of the heart. I mean, for me, it
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Speaker 3: was like a dream come true. At the same time,
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Speaker 3: the life of a monastery, after one year, I realized
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Speaker 3: it was not so sustainable for me. So I thought
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Speaker 3: about ordaining as a nun, but then I realized I
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Speaker 3: wasn't ripe for that yet. So I decided to take
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Speaker 3: a step back, let's say, into the world and started
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Speaker 3: integrating all of those wonderful teachings.
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Speaker 2: In my own daily life.
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Speaker 3: So I kept on practicing Buddhism for some years and
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Speaker 3: until I just bumped into, let's say, a life crisis
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Speaker 3: or another spiritual crisis, maybe at 29. And just all
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Speaker 3: my life changed within a few months. And I felt
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Speaker 3: I was called to something different. I was called to
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Speaker 3: change my approach to spirituality. And so what I thought
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Speaker 3: I took refuge in, which was the Buddha, the Dharma,
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Speaker 3: the Sangha, these beautiful free refuges, was... suddenly not available
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Speaker 3: for me any longer.
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Speaker 2: And I felt I.
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Speaker 3: Was just pushed into the unknown to look for a
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Speaker 3: new way.
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Speaker 1: And you talk about what you call the big flood.
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Speaker 1: What was the big flood and how did it change you?
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Speaker 3: So in the beginning of my book, I talk about
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Speaker 3: the big flood being just this period of personal crisis
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Speaker 3: in which I felt really as if the current of
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Speaker 3: life or like something much bigger than me was just
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Speaker 3: taking away from me everything I thought I knew about myself,
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Speaker 3: about what I wanted, about who I was. And that
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Speaker 3: was just, I was as if just observing that being
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Speaker 3: carried away by these very strong waters, this very strong current.
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Speaker 2: And I felt, to be honest, very helpless at that time.
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Speaker 3: I was just looking at this happening and didn't really
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Speaker 3: know what is going to be left of myself.
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Speaker 2: And, you know, how am I supposed to move on
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Speaker 2: from here?
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Speaker 1: What was the calling that led you to travel to Rishikesh?
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Speaker 2: So.
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Speaker 3: The calling was just feeling that I needed to change something.
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Speaker 3: There was a change that needed to happen, but I
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Speaker 3: didn't know exactly how to address it. You know, I
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Speaker 3: think we are not always ready for the change that
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Speaker 3: life is asking us to embrace.
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Speaker 2: So sometimes maybe we are.
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Speaker 3: And some other times we'd rather not to, we'd rather
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Speaker 3: hold on to what was there before, what was, uh,
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Speaker 3: comforting us before in a way. And, uh, but as
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Speaker 3: that was taken away from me as I, by, by
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Speaker 3: the great flood, as I said, then I was, um, um, yeah,
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Speaker 3: I was like, okay, let me, you know, just, uh,
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Speaker 3: see what's to come. And I went to Rishikesh actually
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Speaker 3: to practice yoga, to immerse a little bit more in
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Speaker 3: the practice of yoga. But then something, again, something completely
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Speaker 3: different that was about to happen.
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Speaker 1: And this is in the early part of your life,
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Speaker 1: so many changes in a very short amount of time.
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Speaker 1: Did you feel almost displaced?
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Speaker 2: Almost? Yes.
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Speaker 1: Displaced, displaced.
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Speaker 2: Ah, displaced.
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Speaker 3: Well, to be honest, I am, I think my life
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Speaker 3: is characterized, I would say, by this intensity. So I,
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Speaker 3: it has always been like this. So in a way I'm,
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Speaker 3: I'm accepting that, you know, that my life has a
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Speaker 3: certain pace to itself and is, often require me to transform, basically. So,
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Speaker 3: of course, I was displaced in many many moments of
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Speaker 3: my life and i think that's why uh the the
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Speaker 3: spiritual let's say call was uh was pretty strong in
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Speaker 3: me because i was looking for uh that uh What
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Speaker 3: does not change? You know, what is not subject to change?
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Speaker 3: So even if we transform like a thousand times, but
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Speaker 3: what is the substance? What is the essence of this life?
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Speaker 1: And can you describe what it felt like within you
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Speaker 1: on a spiritual level and a physical level also to
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Speaker 1: go through these changes?
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Speaker 3: To go through these changes for me meant learning, I
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Speaker 3: would say, many, many things. First of all, about myself,
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Speaker 3: but mainly about trusting into something new. greater than me
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Speaker 3: I think this has often been the uh the case
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Speaker 3: um I felt I was asked to trust and to
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Speaker 3: um to trust into something greater than me and to
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Speaker 3: therefore in a way surrender and uh surrendering is something
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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's you know possible to um
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Speaker 3: to improve you know in surrendering but definitely I have
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Speaker 3: been called over and over again to to surrender my
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Speaker 3: own plans in a way and to open up to
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Speaker 3: to the plans that that the divine maybe has in
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Speaker 3: in mind for me or we could say that life
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Speaker 3: has for me so so I noticed that uh I
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Speaker 3: think our nature, the human nature tends to crystallize and
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Speaker 3: tends to contract very often around things and situations. And
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Speaker 3: all of these changes for me were like life keeping
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Speaker 3: on repeating the same thing over and over again, which
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Speaker 3: is just to relax, just to relax and.
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Speaker 2: Rest, rest as life unfolds.
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Speaker 3: So this is not something I completely learned yet, but
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Speaker 3: I think all of these changes were pointing to this.
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Speaker 2: Teaching.
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Speaker 1: And it also has the essence of trusting the divine
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Speaker 1: that things are unfolding in the right way.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, because our mind, of course, struggles to understand.
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Speaker 2: And of course, how could it be? Reality is so.
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Speaker 3: Beyond our possibilities of understanding. So actually our human understanding
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Speaker 3: is very limited. So often we really have to give
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Speaker 3: that up. Sometimes it's not possible to understand why something
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Speaker 3: is happening to us.
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Speaker 2: And we will.
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Speaker 3: Maybe understand later on, or not even. So I think
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Speaker 3: a lot of this life is mystery and probably it
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Speaker 3: will remain mystery to us. So the trusting side of
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Speaker 3: it is really trusting that this mystery is a supreme
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Speaker 3: intelligence of the heart. that really is graceful and is
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Speaker 3: acting in the best interest of everyone, even in the
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Speaker 3: most unexpected situation and oddest situations.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely. There was an old song by a musical group
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Speaker 1: called the Moody Blues. It was called The Voice. And
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Speaker 1: the lyric said, Make a promise, take a vow, and
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Speaker 1: trust your feelings. It's easy now. Understand the voice within.
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Speaker 1: and feel the changes already beginning. And I think that's
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Speaker 1: what we're talking about.
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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely. So you're in Rishikesh. How did it feel when
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Speaker 1: you saw Indian devotees who seemed to know what to
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Speaker 1: say and what to do in the sacred waters?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so when I was there, I was going through
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Speaker 3: this confusion within myself and this.
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Speaker 2: Inner struggle. And then I was seeing.
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Speaker 3: these beautiful Indian people going to the Ganges, to the river,
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Speaker 3: to the shore of the Ganges every morning to pray.
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Speaker 3: And I was really observing them and I could see
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Speaker 3: that they knew exactly how to pray in a way.
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Speaker 3: They were as if really resting into the ritual. Like
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Speaker 3: they didn't have to, you know, think about it or
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Speaker 3: make it up.
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Speaker 2: It was so.
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Speaker 3: it was really a knowledge that they had inherited or,
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Speaker 3: you know, that they had cultivated. And so the number
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Speaker 3: of times that they were maybe, you know, pouring the
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Speaker 3: vessels that they had in their hands in the water
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Speaker 3: and taking up the water and washing their face and
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Speaker 3: reciting prayers, reciting mantras, there was something very complete about that,
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Speaker 3: very precise about that.
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Speaker 2: They knew how to do it. And by looking at them,
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Speaker 2: I felt, oh my God, I'm.
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Speaker 3: Not sure I know how to do that. I'm not
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Speaker 3: sure I know exactly how to communicate with the divine
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Speaker 3: and to make peace and to connect every day with
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Speaker 3: the divine through a ritual, for example.
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Speaker 2: So that was a very good mirroring.
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Speaker 1: And who is Ganga Mata?
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Speaker 3: Um, so Ganga Mata, uh, is the, the river Ganga, um,
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Speaker 3: but is also, um, one of the women I met.
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Speaker 2: So are you referring to the river or to the woman?
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Speaker 1: The river first, the water first.
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Speaker 2: Okay.
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Speaker 3: So, um, the river, this Ganga river in India is
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Speaker 3: revered since, uh, I don't know, endless, like since centuries
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Speaker 3: as being really a divine manifestation of.
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Speaker 2: The divine mother.
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Speaker 3: And of course, nowadays we are in 2026 and actually
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Speaker 3: there are They do, there are boats on the Gangas,
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Speaker 3: like they do, how to say, I don't remember, rafting. Yeah,
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Speaker 3: they do rafting on the Ganga, which for me was
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Speaker 3: a little bit unsettling. But still, this Ganga river really
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Speaker 3: felt divine to me, maybe because I was opening to
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Speaker 3: exactly to that energy. I was opening to the Divine
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Speaker 3: Mother energy in that moment. precise moment so having the
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Speaker 3: river as a symbol of that was extremely helpful because
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Speaker 3: i would visit the river every day and just the
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Speaker 3: bathing in the ganga is like offering basically your your
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Speaker 3: body offering your being to the divine mother so you
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Speaker 3: can enter into these waters which in rishikesh are actually
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Speaker 3: very clean so it's absolutely safe to do that and
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Speaker 3: I would bathe in the Ganga really as a prayer.
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Speaker 3: So that became my prayer. It was a simple thing
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Speaker 3: and nothing special to be learned, just entering into the
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Speaker 3: water with this intention of I'm offering myself to the
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Speaker 3: Divine Mother, to the Creatrix, to the substance of everything,
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Speaker 3: however you want to define that. And I was asking
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Speaker 3: for support, for direction, for anything, but also just as
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Speaker 3: a hug, almost like to be hugged by this principle.
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Speaker 1: I was going to say that letting go of any
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Speaker 1: type of motivation and just allowing those beautiful waters to
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Speaker 1: embrace you must have been very special.
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Speaker 2: Yes, indeed. Absolutely.
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Speaker 3: And I think the water is really the perfect element
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Speaker 3: for this in this sense because it has a lot
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Speaker 3: of strength inside itself. So when you are in the
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Speaker 3: water of a Ganga, you.
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Speaker 2: Actually feel the current, of course. So you feel there
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Speaker 2: is a direction, you know, and you don't have to
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Speaker 2: direct to this. Like you are in.
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Speaker 3: Something that is already flowing and you can really allow
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Speaker 3: yourself to... You know, you can let go of your
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Speaker 3: tensions and everything and just, you know, the water also
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Speaker 3: has a sound. So the beautiful sound of the water
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Speaker 3: is also, you know, helping the thoughts to be.
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Speaker 2: Released, let's say, and to clean. I think really the
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Speaker 2: sound of the water cleans beautifully the mind from excessive things.
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Speaker 3: Or worries and just that being in the water element
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Speaker 3: with its beautiful sound and the texture of the water
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Speaker 3: on your limbs I think that itself is a moment
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Speaker 3: of paradoxically grounding into you know into the unknown and
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Speaker 3: relaxing into it.
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Speaker 1: And almost a sense of rebirth.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. That is exactly what, uh, uh, what I experienced.
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Speaker 3: I experienced a rebirth.
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Speaker 2: During that period. And, um, and, uh, kind of magically,
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Speaker 2: but of course.
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Speaker 3: Through prayer and through grace, this rebirth started to take
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Speaker 3: place in me and I really felt the ground was
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Speaker 3: coming back under.
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Speaker 2: My feet and it was a completely new ground. Wonderful.
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Speaker 1: My guest is Erika Bassani. Her book, Women in Love
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Speaker 1: with the Divine, A Seeker's Exploration of Faith, Practice, and
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Speaker 1: feminine power. Erika, please share with our listeners where they
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Speaker 1: can get your book and find out more about you.
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Speaker 3: So you can get my book through the website of
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Speaker 3: a publishing house, which is shambhala.com. You can also find
21:16
Speaker 3: it on Amazon and in several independent bookstores worldwide. And
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Speaker 3: you can discover more about the project, Women Awakening Project,
21:28
Speaker 3: on the website, which is www.womenawakeningproject.com.
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Speaker 1: And we'll be back with more of Erica after these
21:37
Speaker 1: words on the OM Times Radio Network.
21:40
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Speaker 1: Back on Vox Novus, my guest this week, Erika Bassani.
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Speaker 1: Her book, Women in Love with the Divine, A Seeker's
22:20
Speaker 1: Exploration of Faith practice, and feminine power. Erika, you had
22:27
Speaker 1: many experiences with sisterhood and spiritual women. How did this
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Speaker 1: change your life perspective?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, Victor, when I started then turning my mind
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Speaker 3: and my heart to the spirituality of women, then I
22:49
Speaker 3: started really seeing women under a different lens because i
22:54
Speaker 3: met so many women during my my travels and my
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Speaker 3: own seeking so many women who uh were really uh
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Speaker 3: seekers of the divine lovers of the divine and uh
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Speaker 3: I really, I myself fell in love with that, with
23:14
Speaker 3: that quest itself, with that not knowing, you know, what exactly,
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Speaker 3: why did we did some changes in our life? And
23:25
Speaker 3: now we are, you know, traveling to some remote temple
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Speaker 3: or to meet a certain master or anything else, just
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Speaker 3: wondering because we felt a call. So I think that's
23:39
Speaker 3: really beautiful and that brought my relationship with other women
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Speaker 3: on a level of really spiritual, I would say, sisterhood
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Speaker 3: so that we really, we are as if called by
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Speaker 3: the same beloved, no? If we imagine the divine to
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Speaker 3: be the beloved of all of us, you know? We
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Speaker 3: are secretly called in a unique way All of us
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Speaker 3: by the same beloved. And then we meet during this
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Speaker 3: journey towards our beloved.
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Speaker 2: And we become friends. We become supporters.
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Speaker 3: And I think that is tremendously important.
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Speaker 2: Especially for women. So....
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Speaker 3: So it was very enriching for me. And then, of course,
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Speaker 3: exploring the spirituality of women who devoted their life to
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Speaker 3: the divine was yet another level of discovery.
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Speaker 1: Your book is called Women in Love with the Divine,
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Speaker 1: and it's based on the stories of 12 extraordinary women,
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Speaker 1: spiritual teachers from diverse traditions. What inspired you to write
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Speaker 1: that book?
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Speaker 3: So when i was um in rishikesh as i said
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Speaker 3: before and going through that uh rebirth through the death
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Speaker 3: of the old way and rebirth to a new yet
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Speaker 3: unknown way uh this connection with the uh with the
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Speaker 3: divine feminine i would say rose in me and then
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Speaker 3: uh I suddenly, and I really mean it, suddenly realized
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Speaker 3: something that was very basic. And it was the realization
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Speaker 3: that all the spirituality I connected and received during this
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Speaker 3: lifetime reached me through either male spiritual figures, such as
25:45
Speaker 3: Of course, Jesus at first, and then Buddha, and then
25:49
Speaker 3: great Buddhist teachers who were men, the men I was following,
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Speaker 3: and then the monks, and all the incredible transformation and
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Speaker 3: incredible wisdom that I'm so grateful I received reached me
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Speaker 3: through these.
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Speaker 2: Men. So suddenly I was hit with.
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Speaker 3: This realization and I was like, I now need to
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Speaker 3: look at and to listen to and to immerse myself
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Speaker 3: into the spirituality of women.
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Speaker 2: So how? And I was really curious how....
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Speaker 3: Do women talk about spirituality? Of course, it's not that
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Speaker 3: I never heard of a woman, you know, nun, or
26:46
Speaker 3: I was friends with many nuns. So of course, I
26:49
Speaker 3: know women dedicate their life to the divine and they,
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Speaker 3: you know, talk about it and so on.
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Speaker 2: But still, I realized I was never exposed to that
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Speaker 2: as much as I was exposed to you know, what
27:03
Speaker 2: I said before, this spirituality coming from male.
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Speaker 3: So I was like, okay, I really want to inquire
27:10
Speaker 3: into this and I want to personally meet women who
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Speaker 3: are alive right now and they dedicate, they made this
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Speaker 3: choice of dedicating their life to the divine.
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Speaker 2: So, and I didn't really.
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Speaker 3: care so much about which tradition they belong or so on,
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Speaker 3: but actually the opposite.
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Speaker 2: I was really drawn to.
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Speaker 3: Looking at the infinite differences that there are within traditions
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Speaker 3: and at the same time, of course, that same deep
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Speaker 3: call that was, you know, the same for all of them.
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Speaker 2: So this is how it started.
27:54
Speaker 1: And what are some of the traditions of the women
27:57
Speaker 1: in your book?
27:59
Speaker 3: So, of course, there is Buddhism, because I said this
28:02
Speaker 3: is one of the.
28:03
Speaker 2: Traditions I'm most familiar with.
28:05
Speaker 3: So in Buddhism, actually, I interviewed a Theravada Buddhist nun,
28:10
Speaker 3: and then a Tibetan, a previously Tibetan Buddhist nun, and
28:18
Speaker 3: then a Zen Buddhist practitioner. So there is Buddhism in
28:25
Speaker 3: different traditions within Buddhism.
28:28
Speaker 2: So there is that.
28:29
Speaker 3: And then there is, of course, a Christian nun from Italy.
28:34
Speaker 3: And then a non-dual, I would say, Advaita teacher. And
28:41
Speaker 3: then a Jewish voice, which is Julia Watts Belser. She's
28:53
Speaker 3: a theologist and really an activist. And then there is
29:01
Speaker 3: a yoga teacher and a dancer, sacred dancer, a Muslim theologist. So,
29:12
Speaker 3: of course, there are not all the traditions, but some
29:17
Speaker 3: of the main traditions, I would say, are there.
29:20
Speaker 1: And what are some of the things you discovered about
29:24
Speaker 1: women's spirituality while researching and writing your book?
29:30
Speaker 3: So I discovered that it's difficult to make a difference
29:37
Speaker 3: between the spirituality of women and spirituality of men. And
29:41
Speaker 3: I discovered I'm actually not interested in that. So I'm
29:45
Speaker 3: not interested in saying the spirituality of women is more this,
29:48
Speaker 3: more that, because I think that would be a generalization.
29:53
Speaker 3: Because every woman embodies the practice, just like.
29:56
Speaker 2: Every man embodies. in her own unique way.
29:59
Speaker 3: And I wouldn't say that this brutality of women is
30:04
Speaker 3: necessarily more embodied, for example, while this is a common,
30:10
Speaker 3: let's say, characteristic that we would ascribe to maybe women practicing,
30:16
Speaker 3: that they tend to embody, to bring more the body
30:20
Speaker 3: in the forefront. But again, for me, this is a
30:22
Speaker 3: bit of a generalization. So I would rather say that
30:28
Speaker 3: the spirituality of women is kind of difficult.
30:35
Speaker 2: To describe.
30:36
Speaker 3: It's a complex universe and it's very important to approach
30:41
Speaker 3: it with a sense of really the preciousness of each journey.
30:48
Speaker 3: For sure, most of the women I interviewed actually struggled
30:52
Speaker 3: within the tradition they belong to So there is this
30:57
Speaker 3: struggle that they faced that is on one side, they
31:01
Speaker 3: love the tradition, of course, in which they belong to.
31:05
Speaker 3: And at the same time, In many cases, these traditions
31:13
Speaker 3: are really carrying all the paradigm into being, into practice.
31:21
Speaker 2: And women have to fight.
31:24
Speaker 3: For some equality within these spiritual traditions, which I think
31:31
Speaker 3: is a very big topic nowadays. And especially in the
31:36
Speaker 3: spiritual world, it's a different discourse. So that is, I
31:42
Speaker 3: liked how none of them, in fact, talk about it
31:46
Speaker 3: as a fight, but it's more like a creative, you know,
31:54
Speaker 3: endeavor of how can we, you know, and can we
32:01
Speaker 3: change the way, you know, we think We.
32:06
Speaker 2: Talk about women in spirituality.
32:10
Speaker 3: Can we change this dynamic of genders within spirituality? And
32:16
Speaker 3: many of them are opening really beautiful paths, new ways
32:25
Speaker 3: to move together because we want together to go to
32:29
Speaker 3: the same goal of merging into... this beautiful consciousness we
32:36
Speaker 3: are all part of. And so instead of, you know,
32:39
Speaker 3: carrying on this gender diversity limits and old paradigms, we
32:48
Speaker 3: can really understand, yes, we are different and we can
32:53
Speaker 3: address these differences with awareness and we can even solve
32:58
Speaker 3: them and, you know, create new structures. So this is what.
33:05
Speaker 2: I found out.
33:08
Speaker 1: And did you find that it is common for spiritual
33:11
Speaker 1: women to seek the feminine aspects of the divine?
33:17
Speaker 2: This, not necessarily, actually. I think.
33:22
Speaker 3: Some women are for sure drawn to that, just like
33:26
Speaker 3: some men, actually. But I wouldn't say most women are
33:31
Speaker 3: drawn to the feminine side of the divine. Because actually
33:37
Speaker 3: also the manifestation of the divine is masculine.
33:41
Speaker 2: I think it's very.
33:45
Speaker 3: It's very appealing to the heart because just because of our,
33:49
Speaker 3: you know, culture, just because of the whole beloved concept.
33:56
Speaker 2: So, you know, I think.
34:00
Speaker 3: It's true in both cases, but I met actually mainly.
34:08
Speaker 3: Women that are you know just devoted to the divine
34:11
Speaker 3: and don't define it necessarily in a female aspect or
34:18
Speaker 3: male aspect maybe they are not so attached to one
34:20
Speaker 3: or the other aspect but a few of them instead
34:26
Speaker 3: are sensitive to the language um within their tradition, and
34:31
Speaker 3: they started talking about the divine, talking about God as mother,
34:36
Speaker 3: for example, or talking about God as she. But I
34:42
Speaker 3: think it's not really to say that God is a woman,
34:46
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? It's more like allowing that
34:51
Speaker 3: aspect also to be there and to.
34:56
Speaker 2: You know, to be out there as a possibility, more
35:00
Speaker 2: than a restrictive, you know, definition.
35:04
Speaker 1: Let's look at a few of the amazing women that
35:07
Speaker 1: you featured in your book. Please share about, and forgive
35:11
Speaker 1: me if I mispronounce names, Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo.
35:17
Speaker 3: Yes, so Jetsun Matenzin Palmo is a nun, is a
35:22
Speaker 3: Buddhist nun in the Kagyu lineage of Tibetan Buddhism and
35:29
Speaker 3: she's a very revered and very beloved figure in Buddhism.
35:35
Speaker 3: She accomplished some extraordinary things within her life as a nun.
35:40
Speaker 3: She started being a nun very early in her 20s
35:43
Speaker 3: and She's originally from London, but now she's living in
35:51
Speaker 3: India at the feet of the Himalayas since quite a
35:54
Speaker 3: long time. And she spent 12 years in total in
36:00
Speaker 3: a cave in the Himalaya on a solitary retreat.
36:07
Speaker 2: So that is pretty....
36:11
Speaker 3: A pretty intense endeavor and uh there was a beautiful
36:14
Speaker 3: book written about this it is called the cave in
36:18
Speaker 3: the snow um and after after this jutsuma uh was
36:26
Speaker 3: called to open a nunnery for nuns of the himalayan
36:32
Speaker 3: regions who often don't have a place to practice actually
36:38
Speaker 3: so she offered them this um you know, this place
36:42
Speaker 3: where they can study just like the monks do study,
36:46
Speaker 3: you know, all day and the Dharma. So that is
36:51
Speaker 3: where I went to meet her in this nunnery at
36:55
Speaker 3: the feet of Himalaya. And it was really the first
36:59
Speaker 3: meeting that I planned, the first interview. And she kind
37:05
Speaker 3: of sets the tone, I would say, for the entire
37:10
Speaker 3: book almost because she gave very practical advices, very down-to-earth.
37:19
Speaker 2: Suggestions. And her message is very strong in regard to
37:25
Speaker 2: realizing that as women we have the same, really the
37:30
Speaker 2: same spiritual possibilities not only material but also spiritual possibilities
37:35
Speaker 2: as men do.
37:37
Speaker 3: So that is a very powerful message, just to really
37:46
Speaker 3: believe in ourselves and knowing that there is nothing that
37:51
Speaker 3: can really stop us. The sky is our limit, as
37:57
Speaker 3: Jitsunma says.
37:59
Speaker 1: Wonderful. Please tell us about Antonietta Potente, a Dominican theologian.
38:06
Speaker 3: Yes, Antonietta Potente is a theologist and a nun, a
38:13
Speaker 3: Dominican nun. I met her in Italy. She's also a
38:19
Speaker 3: teacher in the University of Spain of Italy. women right
38:29
Speaker 3: and she's very strong also on that and her main
38:34
Speaker 3: message in the interview was regarding the importance of waiting
38:42
Speaker 3: so the importance of being expecting the divine constantly in
38:47
Speaker 3: our life and at the same time uh with this
38:52
Speaker 3: attitude that is not not expecting like the uh you
38:56
Speaker 3: know the divine to show up let's say when we
39:00
Speaker 3: want it and when we need it necessarily but it's
39:03
Speaker 3: more like this quality of expectation together with infinite patience
39:09
Speaker 3: and a capacity of being in the waiting itself as
39:14
Speaker 3: a form of prayer in the waiting of maybe life
39:20
Speaker 3: will talk to me, life will probably you know speak to.
39:24
Speaker 2: Me louder.
39:27
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe not so I like to be in this
39:32
Speaker 3: phase of not knowing and really I think it's a
39:36
Speaker 3: humble humble position and within ourself as I as a
39:41
Speaker 3: graceful way to pray.
39:46
Speaker 1: In your chapter about Lama Sultram a Leon You ask
39:50
Speaker 1: her if there's a need to reconcile with the sacred
39:53
Speaker 1: feminine within. How did she answer this?
39:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was actually a very important point within my
40:03
Speaker 3: search and within the book itself, because La Mazzu il
40:07
Speaker 3: Trimaglione brought up the relationship that there is with, for example,
40:16
Speaker 3: climate change. and the fact that women haven't been, you know,
40:23
Speaker 3: considered much in roles of power within spirituality. And that
40:29
Speaker 3: for me was like a new link, was something I
40:34
Speaker 3: never thought about in these terms. But she says that
40:40
Speaker 3: because we forgot... In many traditions, many spiritual traditions, the
40:46
Speaker 3: goal is somehow to transcend this reality and go beyond.
40:51
Speaker 3: So there is this idea that heaven or like peace,
40:56
Speaker 3: eternal bliss is somewhere else. And this reality on earth is,
41:05
Speaker 3: to be honest, pretty miserable. And we are bound into
41:08
Speaker 3: this body of flesh and so on. So all of
41:12
Speaker 3: this is seen as something to go beyond and transcend.
41:15
Speaker 3: But actually, what she says is that this ideology has
41:20
Speaker 3: become also political, it's become cultural and it's become political.
41:25
Speaker 2: And it resulted.
41:27
Speaker 3: Finally in treating the earth as something we can exploit
41:34
Speaker 3: instead as a sacred, you know, being.
41:37
Speaker 2: So....
41:40
Speaker 3: And the same with the bodies of women, exploiting them
41:43
Speaker 3: instead of treating them as a sacred manifestation. And so
41:51
Speaker 3: this is a link, a helpful link.
41:55
Speaker 2: To reconcile with the material, let's say, side of life
42:00
Speaker 2: on earth as a sacred ground itself. So we are
42:05
Speaker 2: here and this is a miracle and this is already,
42:09
Speaker 2: you know, we are already in consciousness, you know, in
42:14
Speaker 2: this pure consciousness manifesting. It's just.
42:21
Speaker 3: a level of manifestation that sometimes we struggle probably to
42:24
Speaker 3: make peace and terms with. But this is really where
42:28
Speaker 3: the spirituality can begin in a very integrated way and
42:36
Speaker 3: also peace with the body, peace with women and men.
42:41
Speaker 3: peace with the earth can really take us to spirituality.
42:47
Speaker 2: We don't need to leave the body. We can be
42:50
Speaker 2: here and now.
42:52
Speaker 1: Wonderful. My guest, Erika Bassani, her book, Women in Love
42:56
Speaker 1: with the Divine. We'll be back with more after these
42:59
Speaker 1: words on the OM Times radio network.
43:03
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43:31
Speaker 5: is where your heart is.
43:33
Speaker 1: Back on Vox Novus, my guest this week is Erica Bassani.
43:37
Speaker 1: Her book, Women in Love with the Divine, A Seeker's
43:42
Speaker 1: Exploration of Faith, Practice, and Feminine Power. Erica, was there
43:48
Speaker 1: one woman featured in your book that surprised you?
43:52
Speaker 3: I really have to say that all of them surprised me.
43:56
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it to be like correct or politically correct.
43:59
Speaker 3: Or anything, but they really, because I never knew what
44:04
Speaker 3: they were going to share in a way. So I
44:07
Speaker 3: was going very open-minded, but also I have no idea
44:10
Speaker 3: what is going to come out of this meeting, of
44:12
Speaker 3: this interview. So in this sense, all of them surprised me.
44:16
Speaker 3: But I would like to mention one in particular, that
44:19
Speaker 3: is Marina Borruso. Marina Borruso, actually, she left the body.
44:24
Speaker 3: She passed away a few months after the interview. So
44:27
Speaker 3: she remained in my heart and in my experience as
44:31
Speaker 3: a very important meeting. And she surprised me because she
44:36
Speaker 3: talked about the divine in an unconventional way. And she
44:42
Speaker 3: said that if we expect to find the divine somewhere else, well,
44:48
Speaker 3: we can be forever waiting for nothing. The divine is
44:55
Speaker 3: inside of us and it is in all those things
44:58
Speaker 3: that we don't want to face about ourselves.
45:01
Speaker 2: That was a very... a very.
45:03
Speaker 3: Nice, you know, way to enlighten the possibility of the
45:07
Speaker 3: spiritual life as really a way to, uh, be with the, uh,
45:14
Speaker 3: entirety of our experience. Cause sometimes we think spirituality is
45:18
Speaker 3: just about picking, you know, following the light and, you know,
45:22
Speaker 3: becoming better and, uh, uh, more virtuous. And, um, that
45:27
Speaker 3: can be of course part of it, but actually, uh,
45:31
Speaker 3: a lot of, um, The spiritual path is just being
45:35
Speaker 3: with what we usually distract from, cannot be with. So
45:42
Speaker 3: it's actually addressing that. Consciousness is actually.
45:49
Speaker 3: If we cultivate consciousness, it means then we are more
45:53
Speaker 3: aware that, for example, in a difficult situation, in a
45:57
Speaker 3: stressful situation, we tend to avoid it. And we immediately
46:02
Speaker 3: run somewhere else with the mind, with the body, with
46:05
Speaker 3: our actions. So instead, what Marina taught me in that
46:12
Speaker 3: interview was really stay there, stay there. Of course, if
46:18
Speaker 3: you can stay there, it doesn't have to be a
46:21
Speaker 3: forceful action. But if you can stay there, if you can.
46:27
Speaker 3: Every time a tiny bit more, increase that capacity to
46:32
Speaker 3: be there with the discomfort, that is where you're actually,
46:37
Speaker 3: you know, meeting the divine in yourself, in that very resilience.
46:43
Speaker 1: Beautiful, beautiful. How did your life change while working on
46:48
Speaker 1: this book?
46:50
Speaker 2: Wow, my life changed dramatically in so many ways.
46:56
Speaker 3: Since I started working on the book. Initially, I fully
47:00
Speaker 3: dedicated myself to writing the book and to the research,
47:04
Speaker 3: so it was really an immersive process of two, two
47:10
Speaker 3: and a half years, and a very inspired time. So,
47:19
Speaker 3: I was literally, you know, following basically what, uh, uh,
47:23
Speaker 3: where the book was leading me kind of. So after that,
47:27
Speaker 3: it came a more grounding phase after writing the book. Uh,
47:32
Speaker 3: so especially this year and part of last year, I
47:35
Speaker 3: started a grounding phase in which, uh, uh, I actually
47:39
Speaker 3: stopped traveling and, uh, uh, I started, uh, working again, uh, um,
47:45
Speaker 3: normal jobs on the sides and, uh, And I started
47:49
Speaker 3: really integrating that wisdom slowly and understanding that this is
47:55
Speaker 3: going to take some time because it does work within
48:01
Speaker 3: the system. I felt I received really a lot from
48:06
Speaker 3: these meetings.
48:08
Speaker 2: And yeah, and so.
48:11
Speaker 3: Now is a more grounding phase and learning throughout.
48:16
Speaker 2: Wonderful.
48:18
Speaker 1: Please tell us about the Women Awakening Project that you
48:21
Speaker 1: founded and Awakening Softness.
48:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, so after writing the book, I realized this is
48:31
Speaker 3: kind of just the beginning. And I thought that because
48:35
Speaker 3: I met so many women, like apart from the women
48:39
Speaker 3: that are in the book, I met like so many
48:41
Speaker 3: more because I did video interviews and several I interviewed,
48:46
Speaker 3: you know.
48:48
Speaker 3: For, you know, just to know about them and so on,
48:52
Speaker 3: just to document and I wrote articles. So I met
48:56
Speaker 3: so many of these super interesting women that I realized
49:01
Speaker 3: a book is not enough because there is so much.
49:04
Speaker 2: More to this.
49:06
Speaker 3: And it can go on and on. And there is
49:08
Speaker 3: a lot to unfold still, you know. Of course, it's
49:12
Speaker 3: not that I am the first one who started talking
49:15
Speaker 3: about this spirituality of women luckily this is already happening
49:19
Speaker 3: and it's it's I feel it's a movement of the
49:24
Speaker 3: collective consciousness that is now giving more space and reflecting
49:29
Speaker 3: more on the experience of women throughout the fields, including
49:34
Speaker 3: the spiritual life of women.
49:37
Speaker 2: And I'm very happy with my.
49:40
Speaker 3: Little capacities, let's say, as a single person, to be
49:47
Speaker 3: part of this movement, greater movement, which is really important
49:54
Speaker 3: for women today. So the Women Awakening Project really wants
49:58
Speaker 3: to be, it's a multimedia platform and it wants to
50:02
Speaker 3: be a space where we have conversations about the spirituality
50:11
Speaker 3: of women today across traditions and addressing all the, basically
50:18
Speaker 3: all the kinds of challenges, but also the joys of,
50:23
Speaker 3: you know, being in love with the divine.
50:26
Speaker 1: What might women's spiritual leadership offer to a world that's
50:31
Speaker 1: struggling with division?
50:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, so what spiritual leadership, women's spiritual leadership would offer
50:41
Speaker 3: is maybe a different way of handling, well, leadership itself,
50:51
Speaker 3: handling management itself. So I believe that in this sense,
50:57
Speaker 3: women can really, are really shifting the paradigm of power
51:03
Speaker 3: and of leadership, showing that it is possible to be more,
51:11
Speaker 3: you know.
51:13
Speaker 2: More open let's say um.
51:16
Speaker 3: More empathic like it's possible to have uh to be
51:21
Speaker 3: a leader and to have an intelligence that consider really
51:24
Speaker 3: the benefit of a whole uh instead of the benefit
51:28
Speaker 3: of a few so.
51:31
Speaker 2: Is that um is that.
51:35
Speaker 3: Maybe more uh circular way of managing instead of vertical
51:42
Speaker 3: like from the top to the down, it's more circular,
51:45
Speaker 3: it's more like, let's do this together, how can we
51:48
Speaker 3: do this together? And like, bringing the, you know, the
51:52
Speaker 3: best from everyone out, the best skills, and it's a
51:57
Speaker 3: bit more about making a concert. So she can lead
52:04
Speaker 3: this orchestra, And this would be the ideal way in
52:12
Speaker 3: which a leadership more, let's say, based on a female sensitivity,
52:21
Speaker 3: we could say, could work, which, of course, men could
52:26
Speaker 3: totally also apply themselves, not exclusively to women. But because
52:33
Speaker 3: before you asked me also about awakening softness, and this
52:37
Speaker 3: is exactly what I found out. One of the biggest
52:44
Speaker 3: lessons I got from this interview is that I discovered
52:48
Speaker 3: through their words and their testimonies that really there is
52:54
Speaker 3: a huge power in.
52:57
Speaker 2: Softness.
52:58
Speaker 3: Softness not intended as, you know, not standing up for yourself,
53:06
Speaker 3: being a sweetie pie, not necessarily that type of softness,
53:10
Speaker 3: but the softness of, let's say, the heart, right? The
53:15
Speaker 3: softness of the heart and the mind that is a
53:18
Speaker 3: mind that is kind of at the service of the heart.
53:21
Speaker 3: And there is a softness there, which is like a
53:25
Speaker 3: lack of defensiveness that comes from having a safe safety
53:32
Speaker 3: net within yourself and, you know, kind of knowing your
53:38
Speaker 3: Knowing your boundaries, knowing your strength also, knowing your weaknesses.
53:42
Speaker 3: It comes from a lot of self-knowledge and.
53:47
Speaker 2: Therefore is.
53:50
Speaker 3: Open, very open to collaborate and very open to move
53:56
Speaker 3: with reality just like water would do.
54:00
Speaker 2: So....
54:02
Speaker 3: This connects to leadership and is also awakening softness is
54:07
Speaker 3: also the program I created for women, but also for
54:13
Speaker 3: men really who want to connect more with this softness
54:17
Speaker 3: within themselves and bring it in their daily challenges, understanding
54:22
Speaker 3: how some of our daily challenges can change.
54:27
Speaker 2: If they can apply the power of softness within themselves.
54:32
Speaker 1: What would you like your readers to take away from
54:34
Speaker 1: Women in Love with the Divine?
54:37
Speaker 3: Like that they feel inspired maybe to follow their dreams
54:42
Speaker 3: or to follow their spiritual life more or that they
54:45
Speaker 3: feel empowered in some way. And especially, you know, I
54:51
Speaker 3: always think about girls. I always think about younger women.
54:55
Speaker 3: And I think I would love them to realize how
54:59
Speaker 3: many powerful women there are.
55:01
Speaker 2: That are not necessarily.
55:04
Speaker 3: What we are used to think of as a powerful woman.
55:08
Speaker 2: So I would love these young women to know that
55:13
Speaker 2: there are so many ways to be a powerful woman.
55:16
Speaker 2: And some of these ways include being a wise woman.
55:21
Speaker 2: And the power that comes from a wise woman is
55:24
Speaker 2: a very powerful power.
55:27
Speaker 1: Absolutely. The wisdom of my guest, Erika Bassani. Her book,
55:32
Speaker 1: Women in Love with the Divine. Erika, one more time,
55:35
Speaker 1: please share with our listeners where they can get your
55:37
Speaker 1: book and find out more about you.
55:39
Speaker 3: Yes, so you can find Women in Love with the Divine,
55:42
Speaker 3: the book, on the website of Shambhala Publications or on
55:50
Speaker 3: Amazon and in many independent booksellers all across the world.
55:55
Speaker 3: You can find out more about Women Awakening Project on
56:01
Speaker 3: our website, www.womenawakeningproject.com.
56:05
Speaker 1: Erica, thank you so much for joining us and sharing
56:08
Speaker 1: this wisdom, this knowledge, and this awareness that is so
56:11
Speaker 1: desperate in our world today.
56:13
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Victor, for giving me this opportunity
56:16
Speaker 3: and the beautiful questions you prepared for me.
56:19
Speaker 2: I'm really honored.
56:21
Speaker 1: And thank you again. And thank you for joining us
56:23
Speaker 1: on Vox Novus. I'm Victor the Voice Furman. Have a
56:27
Speaker 1: wonderful week.