Latest / Unstoppable Success Podcast / Patents, Trademarks & AI: How to Protect Your Ideas and Build a Profitable Business

Transcript

Patents, Trademarks & AI: How to Protect Your Ideas and Build a Profitable Business · Unstoppable Success Podcast

• 0:02
  Jaclyn Strominger: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another amazing episode of Unstoppable Success.
• 0:08
  Jaclyn Strominger: I'm your host, Jaclyn Strominger.
• 0:11
  Jaclyn Strominger: And on this podcast, as you know, we hear from amazing leaders and influential business professionals who are out there doing all things to help make them unstoppable.
• 0:18
  Jaclyn Strominger: And they get to share their insights, their tips, their wisdom with you so you can be unstoppable too.
• 0:24
  Jaclyn Strominger: And today I have an amazing guest, Austin Bonderer.
• 0:28
  Jaclyn Strominger: And let me tell you a little bit about Austin.
• 0:30
  Jaclyn Strominger: He is a seasoned patent attorney with over two decades of experience.
• 0:35
  Jaclyn Strominger: He has a huge portfolio, over 700 issued U.S.
• 0:40
  Jaclyn Strominger: patents, underscoring his expertise and dedication to the field.
• 0:45
  Jaclyn Strominger: And his professional journey has taken him from across the globe, enriching his perspective and broadening his knowledge.
• 0:53
  Jaclyn Strominger: And let me tell you, that's a lot of patents.
• 0:55
  Jaclyn Strominger: So welcome to Unstoppable Success.
• 0:58
  Austin Bonderer: Well, thank you for having me.
• 1:00
  Jaclyn Strominger: You're welcome.
• 1:00
  Jaclyn Strominger: Okay, so I'm just kind of curious.
• 1:02
  Jaclyn Strominger: Did you wake up and come out of the womb thinking I want to go into patents?
• 1:06
  Austin Bonderer: No, I was part of a generation.
• 1:08
  Austin Bonderer: When I went into the patents, uh, I have to tell you, most people did not seek it out.
• 1:15
  Austin Bonderer: Uh, I have to say, now I get, you know, Instagram didn't DM messages, hey, I want to be a patent attorney.
• 1:21
  Austin Bonderer: That wasn't really how it happened back then.
• 1:23
  Austin Bonderer: I uh I went to engineering school.
• 1:25
  Austin Bonderer: You have to be an engineer or a scientist to be a patent attorney.
• 1:28
  Austin Bonderer: So I was going to engineering school, and I part of my capstone senior thesis, I developed this smokeless uh this wireless smoke detection system.
• 1:38
  Austin Bonderer: And I got really interested in, and I, you know, I wrote my own provisional patent, which is horrible now looking back, but I did it, and this was you know part of my thesis.
• 1:48
  Austin Bonderer: I filed it and all stuff, but it got me interested, and the patent office was hiring, so I went and worked at the patent office as a patent examiner.
• 1:57
  Jaclyn Strominger: As a patent examiner, I mean you you know, okay, so like there are things that you just don't think about in terms of professions that are out there, and patent examiner is not really on my list of like number one professions that come to mind.
• 2:11
  Jaclyn Strominger: I'm just letting you know, right?
• 2:13
  Austin Bonderer: I agree, I agree, trust me.
• 2:14
  Austin Bonderer: I thought I was gonna do the engineering stuff or construction management because that's kind of where I was headed, and then it was like, no, you're gonna sit in a back room and research all day and then write papers and push them, and that's that's gonna be your life now.
• 2:29
  Jaclyn Strominger: Okay, so what made you go from that back office to now attorney?
• 2:37
  Austin Bonderer: Okay, so uh a lot of times I I honestly at the time was I did I didn't want to live in uh Boston DC my whole life.
• 2:48
  Austin Bonderer: Okay, and that was the issue.
• 2:50
  Austin Bonderer: Like, so at the time the patent office didn't have it where you could work remotely or anything.
• 2:56
  Austin Bonderer: So in order to leave DC, and you know, I wanted to raise a family and all this other kind of stuff, you had to go to law school.
• 3:03
  Austin Bonderer: So I went to law school at night, became a patent attorney, then started working on the other side.
• 3:08
  Jaclyn Strominger: Okay, so now you're a patent attorney.
• 3:11
  Jaclyn Strominger: I mean, one of the things that I see, and I and talk to me about this, you know, and I and and I know there's a big huge um differential patent, trademark, and then you know, then there you also have like a registration for a name, right?
• 3:33
  Austin Bonderer: Like so the trademarks, that's the names, right?
• 3:36
  Austin Bonderer: So that's the registering, and the whole point of a trademark, most people don't realize this.
• 3:40
  Austin Bonderer: So uh what I do is I help people get federally registered trademarks, and as you mentioned, the difference between the TM and the R, R of the circle, R of the circle means it's registered.
• 3:51
  Austin Bonderer: The TM means you're claiming a common law trademark.
• 3:57
  Austin Bonderer: So you'd be surprised what brands still use TMs, like American Airlines, they use a TM, they are not a federally registered trademark.
• 4:06
  Austin Bonderer: Now, that doesn't mean that well, they got issues because when you trademark a name, you pull it out of the lexicon, right?
• 4:14
  Austin Bonderer: So American Airlines literally describes exactly what it is.
• 4:20
  Austin Bonderer: So they could never stop Delta for sit from saying Delta is an American airline.
• 4:26
  Jaclyn Strominger: That's true, right?
• 4:28
  Austin Bonderer: So they can't they came up with a name.
• 4:31
  Austin Bonderer: So that's one of the things when you work with your clients and you're trying to get some separation there, you definitely go out and try to find a name that you're it's not descriptive because it will never become registered.
• 4:43
  Austin Bonderer: Um, you try to look for strong marks, which you know tend to be a little bit more fanciful.
• 4:48
  Austin Bonderer: Like when Google came out, there wasn't such a thing as Googling, it was just Google or Yahoo or stuff like that.
• 4:56
  Austin Bonderer: So what you get a trademark as soon as you put a service or product out into commerce, right?
• 5:04
  Austin Bonderer: Then you have common law rights to it.
• 5:07
  Austin Bonderer: Now, to make it stronger, what we try to do is we federally register it.
• 5:11
  Austin Bonderer: One of the requirements is that is that you have to have interstate commerce before you apply for the federal registration.
• 5:19
  Jaclyn Strominger: Okay.
• 5:19
  Jaclyn Strominger: I'm like interstate commerce, okay?
• 5:22
  Austin Bonderer: Okay, interesting for some reason the government can regulate everything in the world in the United States, you know, despite the interstate commerce clause.
• 5:32
  Austin Bonderer: But for trademarks, no, we still need the across state lines thing before they get involved.
• 5:37
  Austin Bonderer: So that's what they do.
• 5:38
  Austin Bonderer: So you have to have the interstate commerce and the name.
• 5:42
  Austin Bonderer: Uh, and then once you do that, you can have a federally registered trademark.
• 5:45
  Austin Bonderer: And what that does is it protects you uh throughout the United States.
• 5:50
  Austin Bonderer: Because a common law trademark will be geographically limited.
• 5:56
  Austin Bonderer: So just say you're a Southwest chain or something like that, and you don't get a federal registration, if so happens that someone in New York opens the same type of restaurant with the same type of name, you can't stop them from using it.
• 6:11
  Austin Bonderer: But had you got a federal registration, you would prevent everyone in the United States.
• 6:18
  Jaclyn Strominger: Interesting.
• 6:18
  Jaclyn Strominger: So when people are starting a business, and and this is the part like for listeners, I think this is really important.
• 6:24
  Jaclyn Strominger: You know, if you're planning to be and work, I guess, interstate or globally, I don't, you know, um you know, is it really important right from the beginning to get the tr to be to talk to uh an attorney and say, hey, like I want this, you know, check my registration, trademark, whatever, you know.
• 6:53
  Austin Bonderer: Yes.
• 6:54
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, so it's definitely one of those things you can, you know, definitely in the United States, internationally, if that's what you want to do, you you can do what's called an intent to use application.
• 7:08
  Austin Bonderer: And basically what it is is sometimes say that time is of the essence.
• 7:12
  Austin Bonderer: You will actually apply for four different marks with the intent to use them, and it's almost a form of pre-clearance.
• 7:19
  Austin Bonderer: So once you get that clearance, hopefully you get clearance on all of them, and you can decide to use the one that you like the most.
• 7:25
  Austin Bonderer: But you know, say that one or two falls, now you have one, you know, something in backup.
• 7:30
  Austin Bonderer: Because if you're like, hey, we got to hit the presses, you know, within nine months, because understand it takes a while to get a you know, for your registration process to go through or your intent to use application to go through.
• 7:43
  Austin Bonderer: Uh, I think the backlog now is seven months from the data filing until they look at it.
• 7:49
  Oh, geez.
• 7:50
  Austin Bonderer: Well, for patents, it's two and a half years or so.
• 7:53
  Jaclyn Strominger: Two and a half years.
• 7:54
  Jaclyn Strominger: Okay, so let's talk about patents because I I'm kind of curious about this too, because you know, like like I could tell you, like, I've got I've had a whole different bunch of different ideas and I've never gone through with them because I think, oh, I should get a patent for it, and blah, blah, blah.
• 8:09
  Jaclyn Strominger: I need to get a prototype made.
• 8:11
  Jaclyn Strominger: And then you see these companies that pop up and say, Hey, you've got an idea, we will help you.
• 8:19
  Jaclyn Strominger: Cheesy friend, right?
• 8:22
  Jaclyn Strominger: And you're like, Yeah, you're cringing.
• 8:26
  Jaclyn Strominger: I can see that.
• 8:28
  Austin Bonderer: I can't tell you how many clients have come to me after working with you know those kind of companies.
• 8:33
  Austin Bonderer: I'm not gonna name names, yeah.
• 8:34
  Austin Bonderer: Uh, in fact, if I'm not mistaken, in the 90s or 2000s, Congress actually passed a law, consumer protections against those types of companies.
• 8:44
  Austin Bonderer: I could be wrong, don't quote me on that.
• 8:46
  Austin Bonderer: I was a little bit younger at the time, and I'm much older now.
• 8:49
  Austin Bonderer: I forgot some things, but in any case, um what I tell people who call and they've dealt with it.
• 8:56
  Austin Bonderer: I'm like, look, if you feel like you're the product, you are the product.
• 9:00
  Austin Bonderer: So if you feel like you're being sold, that's where the money is coming from.
• 9:05
  Austin Bonderer: So right.
• 9:08
  Austin Bonderer: So I always tell people, you know, be careful, don't, you know, because their business model is generally they will make money if your invention hits, they'll take a percentage of it.
• 9:22
  Austin Bonderer: But in the meantime, if it doesn't hit, they're still making money because they're like, we need you to pay us to contact all these companies.
• 9:29
  Austin Bonderer: And that's like, well, what does contact all these companies mean?
• 9:32
  Austin Bonderer: It might just be junk mail.
• 9:35
  Right.
• 9:35
  Austin Bonderer: But that's contact, right?
• 9:36
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, there you go.
• 9:37
  Austin Bonderer: Uh, we need all these brochures made, we need all this websites made.
• 9:41
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, just the way that they push your product and all of it is expense to you, and if it hits, they still get a percentage of your patent.
• 9:51
  Right.
• 9:54
  Jaclyn Strominger: Yeah, that's me, that's not great.
• 9:57
  Jaclyn Strominger: That's, you know, I mean, so because yeah, I mean, I've I've spoken to different companies, and they one of the things that they say, if you have an idea, come to us, we're gonna help you manufacture it, we'll help you come up with a prototype, we'll give you the get the patent.
• 10:11
  Jaclyn Strominger: And I'm like, okay, I just want the you know, so many people just want the first part, which is help me make the prototype.
• 10:17
  Jaclyn Strominger: I don't want the other stuff because I'd rather use another person for that.
• 10:23
  Austin Bonderer: Right, exactly.
• 10:24
  Austin Bonderer: Yeah, I know.
• 10:25
  Austin Bonderer: Like the I, you know, I try to help my clients the best I can, but I do have my wheelhouse.
• 10:31
  Austin Bonderer: I am a path interview.
• 10:32
  Austin Bonderer: Now I do have experience with startups, so help with business and stuff, and you know, I can turn into that nagging.
• 10:38
  Austin Bonderer: I always say I'm like the nagging mom saying clean your room.
• 10:41
  Austin Bonderer: I'm like, we need to sign these agreements before we get too far down the road, you know, because inventors and entrepreneurs are like, we're making this this, you know, it's happening now.
• 10:51
  Austin Bonderer: And attorneys are like, slow down, we have to do the boring work first, but the boring work can make it work.
• 10:59
  Austin Bonderer: Um, you're right.
• 11:00
  Austin Bonderer: So just I would not suggest using those companies.
• 11:04
  Austin Bonderer: You can find people to make your prototype much better, let them stick in their wheelhouse.
• 11:10
  Austin Bonderer: Um, and here's the other part you were talking about.
• 11:13
  Austin Bonderer: You know, you had a product.
• 11:14
  Austin Bonderer: First thing I tell people who call is like, you don't need a patent to make money.
• 11:19
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, look around your house.
• 11:21
  Austin Bonderer: You pay good money for a lot of that stuff, and someone made money off of you buying it.
• 11:27
  Austin Bonderer: So, you know, if it's a good idea and you can't get a patent on it, you can still make money.
• 11:34
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right, you can still sell it.
• 11:35
  Jaclyn Strominger: You just have to get somebody, you know, do the prototype and then start doing those things, right?
• 11:38
  Jaclyn Strominger: If that's something that you really want.
• 11:40
  Austin Bonderer: Right.
• 11:40
  Austin Bonderer: And you know, and this is a thing, like, there is a sweet spot.
• 11:43
  Austin Bonderer: You can make a very good living on something before it gets copied.
• 11:48
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, there is a sweet spot.
• 11:49
  Austin Bonderer: Like, I mean, you have to be making a ton of product generally before someone's gonna copycat you in your product, yeah.
• 11:58
  Austin Bonderer: So, you know, if you're making you can make a happy family life with a good product that's selling, maybe, you know, and then add to that product line before you start getting, you know.
• 12:10
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right.
• 12:11
  Jaclyn Strominger: So, so so when, you know, when is the right time to then go get the patent?
• 12:19
  Austin Bonderer: At the beginning.
• 12:20
  Austin Bonderer: Unfortunately, it's it's front loaded.
• 12:21
  Austin Bonderer: Trademarks you can get, you can get a registration anytime.
• 12:24
  Austin Bonderer: I actually had a client that'd been in business for over 70 years and we registered their trademark.
• 12:29
  Austin Bonderer: Oh, right.
• 12:30
  Austin Bonderer: So, but with patents, disclosure kills patents.
• 12:34
  Austin Bonderer: So if you publicly disclose or offer for sale your patent or your idea, you only have a year in the United States to file for a patent application, but you've lost generally lost your right in the EU, China, a lot of other countries.
• 12:50
  Austin Bonderer: The United States tends to be very patent friendly, and a lot of these other places are not.
• 12:56
  Austin Bonderer: So any public disclosure can ruin your right to file in those countries.
• 13:01
  Austin Bonderer: So generally, what we would do is we file in the United States first, and if you're like, hey, it's going to be a big deal, then we can file in the other countries.
• 13:08
  Austin Bonderer: But if you publicly disclosed while you're still able to file in the United States, you can't file overseas.
• 13:15
  Jaclyn Strominger: So do you have an example of somebody that you say, okay, this company made X?
• 13:22
  Jaclyn Strominger: We did it here, but we couldn't do it overseas.
• 13:27
  Austin Bonderer: Um well, it's not so much made.
• 13:30
  Austin Bonderer: Just if you have a patent in the United States, you have the exclusive right to make and use it in the United States.
• 13:37
  Austin Bonderer: But China can make that and they can sell it all over the world, everywhere else.
• 13:43
  Austin Bonderer: Right.
• 13:44
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right.
• 13:45
  Austin Bonderer: So that's kind of how that works.
• 13:47
  Jaclyn Strominger: Yeah.
• 13:47
  Jaclyn Strominger: So but you don't necessarily have to get a patent just on a product, right?
• 13:52
  Jaclyn Strominger: Or there are there's different types of patents.
• 13:56
  Austin Bonderer: Well, it's you generally for a utility patent, you have a patent on either a method or an apparatus.
• 14:03
  Jaclyn Strominger: Okay.
• 14:03
  Austin Bonderer: You know, they they have basically killed software patents.
• 14:07
  Austin Bonderer: It was the Alice decision came out.
• 14:09
  Austin Bonderer: Supreme Clark said, this is just ones and zeros electrons, therefore it's not, it's an abstract idea.
• 14:15
  Austin Bonderer: And in a weird way, they were talking, I mean, they were right.
• 14:18
  Austin Bonderer: Basically, what it is the way I explain to people, because I get calls all the time, hey, I have a new app, I want a patent.
• 14:23
  Austin Bonderer: And I'm like, well, is it generally taking information, comparing it to a database, or running it through an algorithm and spitting out an output?
• 14:32
  Austin Bonderer: And pretty much all apps are that, it's just you know the secret sauce in that algorithm or database, and you can't get a patent on it because technically someone could do that in their head.
• 14:44
  Austin Bonderer: Okay, all right, and you can't patent thought.
• 14:54
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right.
• 14:54
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right, yeah, right.
• 14:58
  Austin Bonderer: That's kind of the way it goes, yeah, exactly.
• 15:00
  Austin Bonderer: So uh, but um so you can generally patent methods and apparatuses.
• 15:07
  Austin Bonderer: But I, you know, I warn my clients because a lot of times they're like, hey, I came up with a new way of making something.
• 15:13
  Austin Bonderer: I'm like, yeah, we can get a patent on that, but then we we tell everyone how you're making it, but how do we enforce it?
• 15:20
  Austin Bonderer: Methods of manufacturer, because it's happening behind a building, like you inside a building.
• 15:25
  Austin Bonderer: How am I supposed to know that they're using your patent method?
• 15:28
  Austin Bonderer: You told them how to use it because it you have to teach someone how to make and use your invention, but there's no way to police it.
• 15:36
  Austin Bonderer: So oftentimes we'll talk about and like, is it something that a trade secret would be a proper remedy in order to protect you know that secret sauce?
• 15:46
  Austin Bonderer: And of course, the most famous trade secret of all time is Coca-Cola, right?
• 15:53
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right, right.
• 15:54
  Jaclyn Strominger: So it's a right, you know, formula, a formula, you know, right?
• 16:00
  Jaclyn Strominger: So you so okay, so that's a trade secret.
• 16:05
  Austin Bonderer: So does that do you get a does a company get a separate filing for a trade secret, or it does not there's no really such thing as a file trade secret, you just have to go through a lot of steps and you know each situation is different.
• 16:24
  Austin Bonderer: Like say you have a manufacturing process, you might do you know that component behind four security doors, so only very few people see it.
• 16:34
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, if it's if you're going to try to protect it as a trade secret, make sure you talk to an attorney because it's a lot less concrete as a patent, because a patent comes in a document.
• 16:45
  Austin Bonderer: You're like, here, the government gave it to me, it says it right there.
• 16:47
  Austin Bonderer: Trademarks registration, same thing.
• 16:49
  Austin Bonderer: Trade secrets kind of like, uh, we did everything we thought possible to keep this secret.
• 16:54
  Austin Bonderer: Court, will you please enforce our trade secret against this rogue employee that's going to try to give it away?
• 17:01
  Austin Bonderer: That's kind of how it works.
• 17:03
  Austin Bonderer: And then the court, the judge is gonna look at you like, what did you do to keep it secret?
• 17:06
  Austin Bonderer: If you're like, we just made everyone sign confidentiality agreements, that's not gonna be enough.
• 17:13
  Jaclyn Strominger: I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh about that, but I feel like that's like you're like not that NDAs are confidential are you know, it just you know, you it's I find that's correct me if I'm wrong.
• 17:27
  Jaclyn Strominger: I would imagine sometimes that some of those things are really hard to enforce if you're just having a conversation with somebody, but sometimes you don't even realize what you're saying.
• 17:34
  Jaclyn Strominger: I don't know.
• 17:34
  Austin Bonderer: It's well, I you know, there's a big thing with you know, I've seen a lot.
• 17:40
  Austin Bonderer: So an NDA at the end of the day is a contract, and a lot of people are like, hey, I told my best buddy, and don't worry, he signed an NDA.
• 17:47
  Austin Bonderer: And I'm like, Well, what did you give him in exchange to keep quiet?
• 17:50
  Austin Bonderer: Because in order to have a contract, you have to have a quid pro quo, like something for something, and his promise to keep it quiet, or your best friend's promise to keep it quiet without something given to them is merely a promise and not a binding contract by any means.
• 18:06
  Austin Bonderer: The other thing is no one seems to read it.
• 18:10
  Austin Bonderer: It's like in there, it says if you give out documents, you need to say it's confidential.
• 18:13
  Austin Bonderer: If you talk to people, you need to say it's confidential.
• 18:16
  Austin Bonderer: Like you have to label everything that you believe is confidential in order to adhere to the terms of the NDA.
• 18:25
  Austin Bonderer: So it's not just this blanket piece of paper, like, here you go, have an NDA, it covers everything.
• 18:29
  Austin Bonderer: It's like there are responsibilities inside that document that you have to live by.
• 18:34
  Austin Bonderer: And if you're not doing it, then you know you might be in trouble later.
• 18:39
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right, right.
• 18:39
  Jaclyn Strominger: So, and so many people I don't really think necessarily read the fine print.
• 18:45
  Austin Bonderer: No, read it.
• 18:46
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, I only do because someone pays me to, right?
• 18:50
  Austin Bonderer: That's I mean, it's so monotonous, you know, and you know, I wonder if that's where AI will start to come in, and you know, and then you you ask these people sometimes like, how'd you sign this contract?
• 19:01
  Austin Bonderer: And you're like, Well, I didn't, it's it was 15 pages long.
• 19:04
  Austin Bonderer: You expect me to read that?
• 19:06
  Austin Bonderer: And I'm like, I get it.
• 19:07
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, I read five pages that stuff, I'm sleepy.
• 19:10
  Austin Bonderer: I can't imagine like someone who doesn't, you know, it's yeah, it's a lot of work.
• 19:16
  Jaclyn Strominger: Yeah, so I have a I I have a question and and and I find it interesting.
• 19:20
  Jaclyn Strominger: I'm hoping my listeners will find it interesting.
• 19:22
  Jaclyn Strominger: Um, with with the impact of AI.
• 19:27
  Jaclyn Strominger: Let's say I have I have a company and I'm putting in all the information about the company into AI to help me generate all my marketing materials, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 19:39
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right.
• 19:40
  Jaclyn Strominger: At what point, you know, is there a lack of protection of intellectual property, you know, because now I have put all of that into AI, and AI can pull from anywhere.
• 20:01
  Jaclyn Strominger: So how do you how do we define, I guess, and keep intellectual property, intellectual property with AI?
• 20:12
  Austin Bonderer: Yeah, that see, I've been harping on this for a while because everyone's like AI, and you know, I'll have people call me and be like, hey, can can you file this for me?
• 20:20
  Austin Bonderer: How do AI write my patent application for me?
• 20:23
  Austin Bonderer: I'm like, I'm not, I'm not.
• 20:24
  Austin Bonderer: I'm sorry, I can't do that.
• 20:25
  Austin Bonderer: Uh, and I wouldn't trust it either.
• 20:27
  Austin Bonderer: But um, you know, there are people who are like, I'm gonna search and see if it's out there.
• 20:33
  Austin Bonderer: So they put in their idea into AI.
• 20:35
  Austin Bonderer: And I've always said, until a court tells me that's okay and not considered public disclosure, because I mean, you're literally giving your prompt, your description to the largest database out there, or at least one of them, right?
• 20:49
  Austin Bonderer: How is that not public disclosure?
• 20:52
  Austin Bonderer: Strange enough, just read a case out of it, I think it was out of New York federal court, and it had something to do with attorney client privilege.
• 21:02
  Austin Bonderer: Someone put these questions into AI or this information into AI.
• 21:07
  Austin Bonderer: They somehow got a hold of it.
• 21:08
  Austin Bonderer: They tried to claim it was attorney-client privilege.
• 21:11
  Austin Bonderer: The court came out and said, if you look at the terms of service, they're allowed to keep your prompts, they're allowed to keep all the information that you put in there.
• 21:18
  Austin Bonderer: Hence, that's a disclosure to a third party unrelated to the litigation, and therefore breaches attorney-client privilege.
• 21:28
  Austin Bonderer: Now, that's not the same thing that we're talking about patents, but to me, public disclosure is public disclosure.
• 21:34
  Austin Bonderer: So still, I think my idea is being reinforced.
• 21:37
  Austin Bonderer: Do not put your idea into the AI prompts to see right.
• 21:45
  Jaclyn Strominger: Because and and and this is actually a really big thing, listeners, because I I I want to bring this up because on the business side, and there's a little personal part of this with me.
• 21:59
  Jaclyn Strominger: Um, if you're in business with somebody, right, and you have a separation, but you have you both of them putting all your stuff into AI, there's no more intellectual property.
• 22:13
  Jaclyn Strominger: It's all it's if if if it it's all in there, like it's out there for anybody to see.
• 22:20
  Jaclyn Strominger: It's in a database, correct?
• 22:23
  Austin Bonderer: Well, I I don't, I mean, I don't know how I'm not an expert in AI.
• 22:28
  Austin Bonderer: I just know they kind of own the information you put in, but I don't think that someone can literally be like, tell me what these people said, right?
• 22:36
  Austin Bonderer: Right.
• 22:37
  Austin Bonderer: I don't think it's that how that works.
• 22:39
  Austin Bonderer: I could be wrong.
• 22:40
  Austin Bonderer: I you know I I'm not a computer guy.
• 22:44
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right, right.
• 22:45
  Jaclyn Strominger: I think I have to do a couple of problems.
• 22:47
  Jaclyn Strominger: So tell me, tell me, Chad and Claude, can you tell me what whatever?
• 22:52
  Jaclyn Strominger: But I but I think but it I think it makes it more like null and void as you put it, you know, if you're sharing ideas and you're sharing information about your business, right, and you're putting it out there, right?
• 23:06
  Jaclyn Strominger: And it's and it's not in a private behind the a firewall.
• 23:12
  Austin Bonderer: Yes, I think I know what you're saying now.
• 23:14
  Austin Bonderer: So that's the other thing about NDAs, they only protect confidential information.
• 23:19
  Austin Bonderer: And if you put everything in AI, there's a good chance that it's not confidential anymore.
• 23:24
  Austin Bonderer: So, therefore, all the NDAs that you signed with other parties are is now null and void.
• 23:30
  Austin Bonderer: That's a court case.
• 23:32
  Austin Bonderer: That is judges, that's going to go up to the federal circuit, possibly the Supreme Court.
• 23:35
  Austin Bonderer: That's where, but I don't want to be the test case, and I don't want my clients to be on the wrong side of that.
• 23:42
  Austin Bonderer: Now, it could be decided in the other way, like the Supreme Court may say this is so you know far removed from disclosure.
• 23:50
  Austin Bonderer: Like you someone can't just come up and say who said this and what did they say, but it's now in in you know integrated into you know a friend of mine likes to say the board, it's now part of the board and uh nerd reference.
• 24:08
  Austin Bonderer: Sorry, right, but I get it.
• 24:10
  Jaclyn Strominger: I'm I'm I'm nerd with you, so that I get it.
• 24:13
  Austin Bonderer: Yeah, so it's in there, but I don't think it's easily accessible at this moment.
• 24:18
  Austin Bonderer: So I don't know how that actually falls.
• 24:21
  Austin Bonderer: I, you know, being an attorney, we're always like slip and falls, don't get hurt, you know, dangers everywhere, don't do it.
• 24:28
  Austin Bonderer: So, I mean, but you know, you gotta move fast in business.
• 24:33
  Austin Bonderer: There are risks that sometimes you have to take.
• 24:35
  Austin Bonderer: If AI is getting you to the market fast, you know, I always say lawyers can lawyer lawyer you right out of business.
• 24:42
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right.
• 24:42
  Jaclyn Strominger: That is true.
• 24:43
  Jaclyn Strominger: That is really true.
• 24:44
  Austin Bonderer: We'll suck up all your budgets.
• 24:46
  Austin Bonderer: Right.
• 24:47
  Austin Bonderer: You will have the best company that has no money to sell anything, right?
• 24:54
  Jaclyn Strominger: So so, you know, I I love the I, you know, I love the fact that what we're talking about is it's really about protecting our assets when it comes to the to, you know, some it, I mean it really brings to light to protect yourself from um you know harm in your business when you're getting out there.
• 25:16
  Jaclyn Strominger: And with AI right now, you know, it's really it it changes how you actually do research on your product and your ideas.
• 25:27
  Jaclyn Strominger: So in that sense, is it is it, and I'm just gonna say, let's say I take my idea, and instead of me obviously putting it into chat, I say, okay, Austin, here's my idea.
• 25:40
  Jaclyn Strominger: You're the patent attorney.
• 25:42
  Jaclyn Strominger: Can you do a better global search of my idea if there is something that's similar out there before I start going down the path of trying to create this?
• 25:52
  Jaclyn Strominger: Because I want, I don't want to use AI because I'm now putting my idea out there.
• 25:58
  Jaclyn Strominger: So do you do you, you as a patent attorney and other patent attorneys become this um the gateway to ideas so that you're uh get you know idea protection?
• 26:13
  Austin Bonderer: Right.
• 26:13
  Austin Bonderer: Yeah, so I don't actually know how that's all gonna hash out.
• 26:16
  Austin Bonderer: So I don't know how good AI is at searching for products.
• 26:21
  Austin Bonderer: You know, I just heard something crazy today about they found it, they developed an AI so advanced on developing software that they're afraid it can turn into like just hacking everything.
• 26:34
  Austin Bonderer: Like it it found all the it found something as software that's been used for 30 years.
• 26:39
  Austin Bonderer: No one's ever found these bugs.
• 26:41
  Austin Bonderer: It found something could make it control the internet or something.
• 26:44
  Austin Bonderer: I forgot what it was.
• 26:45
  Austin Bonderer: So they're crazy how good these tools are.
• 26:48
  Austin Bonderer: I just don't know how it works for searching.
• 26:52
  Austin Bonderer: Um, what I would think is so we do it the old-fashioned way.
• 26:56
  Austin Bonderer: We have to do it with non-disclosure agreements, we keep it private, we do all stuff.
• 27:00
  Austin Bonderer: Now, once your product gets out there, there's no harm in throwing it into AI.
• 27:05
  Austin Bonderer: So people who want to invalidate your patents may throw all this stuff in there and be like, search the entire world.
• 27:12
  Austin Bonderer: Because our searches are done by humans, it's an art, not a science.
• 27:18
  Austin Bonderer: You know, I used to be an examiner.
• 27:20
  Austin Bonderer: The search I conducted on Wednesday and the references that I pull on Wednesday would probably not be the exact same if I did the search on Thursday, because you just you're focused on certain paradigms, certain days, you know, a little bit off here and there.
• 27:33
  Austin Bonderer: You hope that the core is there, but you might have pulled a different one over here, a different reference over there on a different day.
• 27:39
  Austin Bonderer: That's just the nature of human beings.
• 27:41
  Austin Bonderer: AI, boom, it I don't know what's going to happen.
• 27:46
  Jaclyn Strominger: Yeah.
• 27:46
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right.
• 27:47
  Jaclyn Strominger: So well, we're, you know, I have a friend of mine who developed a product and product, and she does have a patent on it.
• 27:57
  Jaclyn Strominger: Um, it's actually quite cool.
• 27:59
  Jaclyn Strominger: Um but you know, so when again, I guess I I guess I'll put it like this.
• 28:05
  Jaclyn Strominger: It's like if if listeners want to have, you know, sort of that success with with their product, go make sure that you've explored the patent idea patent with a patent attorney before it goes out to everybody and their brother.
• 28:23
  Jaclyn Strominger: You can still make money, you can, but as you said, have that year, but protect yourself.
• 28:29
  Austin Bonderer: Yeah.
• 28:30
  Austin Bonderer: So I always get the question when do I know I might have something that's patentable?
• 28:33
  Austin Bonderer: And I'm like, generally, it's when you've solved a problem.
• 28:37
  Austin Bonderer: Because if you've solved a problem, it might be a problem that everyone's had, you know.
• 28:42
  Austin Bonderer: And so that's generally what inventions are, they're just solutions to problems that we've had or problems we didn't even know we had sometimes.
• 28:51
  Austin Bonderer: And you know, that's you know, that's how it works.
• 28:55
  Austin Bonderer: And um, so get a patent attorney.
• 28:58
  Austin Bonderer: My suggestion is companies, you get on a really good relationship with a patent attorney, an IP attorney.
• 29:05
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, but you should also have a good business attorney, right?
• 29:08
  Austin Bonderer: Right.
• 29:09
  Austin Bonderer: Um, your business insurance should have patent coverage in it, like patent infringement, in case someone sues you, case you have to sue someone, right?
• 29:18
  Austin Bonderer: I don't think they have it offensively, but they definitely have it defensively.
• 29:22
  Austin Bonderer: Um, so you should definitely, you know, those are the kind of things.
• 29:26
  Austin Bonderer: Like I said, that's the stuff that I help businesses with sometimes, you know, after they develop their product and they're moving forward.
• 29:32
  Austin Bonderer: Hey, can you help me with some of this business on the back end?
• 29:36
  Austin Bonderer: Um, but if you have a good relationship with a patent attorney and they know what you're doing, and then I, you know, also with your trademarks, too.
• 29:44
  Austin Bonderer: So you say you're developing products and you're moving into different areas, you need to protect those names.
• 29:50
  Austin Bonderer: You know, I had a client that came in one time, and I was like, you guys should have gone because understand, trademarks are classes, so you can have acme oil company and acme uh fragrance company, right?
• 30:03
  Austin Bonderer: That's not trademark infringement because they're in different classes, much you know, far apart.
• 30:09
  Austin Bonderer: But you know, they came to me and I was helping them with them like you should have gone over here and they got usurped by someone else.
• 30:18
  Right.
• 30:19
  Austin Bonderer: Right.
• 30:19
  Austin Bonderer: And just because you have a trademark in one class doesn't mean you have it in all classes, right?
• 30:24
  Austin Bonderer: You need to act, but that should be part of the a search too, or you well, that the the the the reason that happened was because they were not close enough with their attorney for their attorney to foresee where they were going.
• 30:38
  Jaclyn Strominger: Okay, got it.
• 30:39
  Jaclyn Strominger: Well, that's actually a really cool thing.
• 30:41
  Jaclyn Strominger: It goes to building it's it's you need to you it's not you're it's it's not like um patent attorney for hire, so to speak, in the sense of like just you know, you're not putting the coins, right?
• 30:54
  Jaclyn Strominger: You know what I mean?
• 30:55
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right?
• 30:55
  Jaclyn Strominger: Like you really need to have that relationship so that they do know what you're doing, just like your your your CPA, your um like your business attorney, like they all need to know what's going on in your business.
• 31:10
  Jaclyn Strominger: I mean, I always like it like that's part of your, you know, if you if you had to make things efficient every year, get those people together in a room and say, okay, here's what we're doing in our business.
• 31:20
  Jaclyn Strominger: You guys all need to make sure that we're all up and board, right?
• 31:23
  Jaclyn Strominger: Like all on board.
• 31:25
  Austin Bonderer: Right.
• 31:25
  Austin Bonderer: Exactly.
• 31:26
  Austin Bonderer: And you know, and it it depends on the attorneys you have.
• 31:28
  Austin Bonderer: Someone will charge you for all that, some of them are just like, hey, I enjoy having the relationship.
• 31:33
  Austin Bonderer: Because they, you know, that kind of stuff.
• 31:35
  Austin Bonderer: So you should it's I I equate it to kind of like your doctor, you kind of gotta let your doctor know what's going on, right?
• 31:42
  Austin Bonderer: They keep your business and healthy, you're all your attorneys do too, and your accountants, you know, right?
• 31:48
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, what is that?
• 31:50
  Austin Bonderer: That old saying, like, you know, my dad, you said three people, you need a good doctor, a good lawyer, and a good account, right?
• 31:56
  Austin Bonderer: That's and that's what your business needs too.
• 31:58
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right, right.
• 31:59
  Jaclyn Strominger: That's true.
• 32:00
  Jaclyn Strominger: And it's when I think about that right now, so many people don't have those.
• 32:04
  Jaclyn Strominger: So if you don't have those listeners, get them.
• 32:06
  Jaclyn Strominger: Get those all right.
• 32:09
  Jaclyn Strominger: Um, so Austin, tell me, like, what is like what is your next big thing?
• 32:13
  Jaclyn Strominger: Like, what are you really working on?
• 32:14
  Jaclyn Strominger: Um, you know, and and what's you know, what keeps you going?
• 32:19
  Austin Bonderer: Well, it keeps me going.
• 32:20
  Austin Bonderer: I really enjoy what I do.
• 32:21
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, like, I enjoy working with people.
• 32:23
  Austin Bonderer: I, you know, it's when I have a client who truly has, I mean, I I I hate to say it, it, you know, I tell people when they first call, like independent inventors, you may want to take this money and invest it in the stock market.
• 32:36
  Austin Bonderer: It's less speculative than you know, trying to develop a product.
• 32:40
  Austin Bonderer: You know, patent is one thing, but it's a small step in actually developing a business based around an idea that you have.
• 32:47
  Austin Bonderer: That's a lot of work.
• 32:48
  Austin Bonderer: It costs a lot.
• 32:49
  Austin Bonderer: It can, if it succeeds, it's gonna be great.
• 32:52
  Austin Bonderer: If it doesn't, it's painful.
• 32:54
  Austin Bonderer: But I have to tell you, when I'm with a client and it they got a red ball and it's just taking off and it's doing everything, that's that's why I got into this, is you know, to see that stuff.
• 33:05
  Austin Bonderer: And it it really is great to see people making it work.
• 33:11
  Austin Bonderer: And and I gotta tell you, like, I've seen great ideas, I've patented them for or helped them patent them.
• 33:18
  Austin Bonderer: But as we all know, it's it's not the idea, it's the idea and the execution.
• 33:24
  Austin Bonderer: And it's sometimes it's that hard part because there's a lot of question marks in there to get to profit.
• 33:32
  Austin Bonderer: Like, how do I produce this?
• 33:33
  Austin Bonderer: How much money am I gonna spend?
• 33:34
  Austin Bonderer: What marketing do I do?
• 33:36
  Austin Bonderer: And that's hard for one person to get all those right in order to make this thing happen.
• 33:42
  Jaclyn Strominger: It is, it is, but you know, and and I guess that's also comes down to like having somebody, you know, in your back pocket like yourself, where they actually um have somebody sort of rooting for them and and who also has seen, you know, you've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly.
• 34:00
  Jaclyn Strominger: So somebody's gonna come to you and they're gonna be like, okay, Austin, well, this is my my my what I want, a patent, whatever.
• 34:07
  Jaclyn Strominger: You know, you being able to help not just advise, but say, okay, making sure that you have these other things in a row, ducks in a row.
• 34:16
  Austin Bonderer: Yep.
• 34:16
  Austin Bonderer: Exactly.
• 34:18
  Austin Bonderer: I mean, and that's the thing.
• 34:19
  Austin Bonderer: Like, I stay in my wheelhouse.
• 34:20
  Austin Bonderer: Like, I'll have people come to me and be, hey, I have this idea for an invention.
• 34:24
  Austin Bonderer: Do you think it's going to do well?
• 34:25
  Austin Bonderer: And I'm like, I've worked too long because there have been times I'm like, this is going to kill the market.
• 34:30
  Austin Bonderer: This is the greatest idea.
• 34:32
  Austin Bonderer: This is the coolest thing since sliced bread goes nowhere.
• 34:34
  Austin Bonderer: And then other times I'm like, are you sure you really want to spend all this money on this?
• 34:38
  Austin Bonderer: Like, are you sure?
• 34:39
  Austin Bonderer: And then sure enough, right as rain.
• 34:42
  Austin Bonderer: You know, they had the conviction, they had they had everything, they made it work, and it was very successful.
• 34:47
  Austin Bonderer: So when it comes to marketability, that's someone else's um that is not my will.
• 34:53
  Austin Bonderer: Yeah, exactly.
• 34:54
  Austin Bonderer: I is not in I, you know, I do the legal stuff.
• 34:58
  Austin Bonderer: I you know, I can can I get you a patent?
• 35:00
  Austin Bonderer: Can I not get you a patent?
• 35:01
  Austin Bonderer: Maybe I don't know, but yes, uh the marketability that's that's on that's on you.
• 35:07
  Jaclyn Strominger: Uh well, I love it.
• 35:07
  Jaclyn Strominger: Well, I could talk to you for hours about this because I think it's so fascinating.
• 35:10
  Jaclyn Strominger: And I can't, I'm so curious as to like where AI is gonna take it because as we said, like there's there's so yeah, there's some areas obviously like putting it in, right?
• 35:21
  Jaclyn Strominger: You know, right?
• 35:22
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right, and that's gonna there's gonna be some changes down the road that I think pretty, you know, it's gonna be fascinating to see what happens.
• 35:31
  Austin Bonderer: I had the coolest thing, and just one more thing, like about AI.
• 35:35
  Austin Bonderer: And it I think I think we're okay, most of us, because we're at least the shepherds.
• 35:43
  Austin Bonderer: We know what a patent attorney, what in in your business or whatever, like we know what it's supposed to be.
• 35:49
  Austin Bonderer: The problem is the young kids coming up or the young's, they won't have the 20 years of experience to see that that AI did something wrong.
• 36:00
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right, right.
• 36:01
  Austin Bonderer: Yes, it will get to a point where no one knows if AI is right or wrong.
• 36:06
  Austin Bonderer: Because I've spent 20 years writing patent applications, office actions, arguing this and that.
• 36:12
  Austin Bonderer: I know the stuff.
• 36:13
  Austin Bonderer: It can it can put out something that looks really, really good, but you know, I'm sure there are problems with it.
• 36:22
  Austin Bonderer: And if the young people keep using that, they're they're not gonna have the experience to point out when it's wrong.
• 36:30
  Jaclyn Strominger: Right.
• 36:31
  Jaclyn Strominger: That's Sherry, right?
• 36:34
  Austin Bonderer: Or the shepherds, yeah.
• 36:35
  Jaclyn Strominger: I'm that makes me a little nervous about a lot of different things.
• 36:39
  Jaclyn Strominger: So on that note, Austin, I you know, how can listeners get in touch with you, find more about what you are doing um in way of obviously patents and you know, and helping people?
• 36:49
  Jaclyn Strominger: How can they connect?
• 36:51
  Austin Bonderer: Well, it's probably easy to find me on the internet, Bonderer.
• 36:54
  Austin Bonderer: It's I'm the only patent attorney in the United States with that last name.
• 36:57
  Austin Bonderer: So you put in Bonderer and Patent, you will find me.
• 37:01
  Austin Bonderer: Uh, you'll see my work, but my website should pop up and feel free to give me a call or an email.
• 37:06
  Jaclyn Strominger: All right, well, that's great.
• 37:07
  Jaclyn Strominger: Well, we will put your um your website link in the show notes um so that people can reach out to you.
• 37:12
  Jaclyn Strominger: And listeners, please do me a favor, connect with Austin.
• 37:17
  Jaclyn Strominger: This stuff is so important for your business.
• 37:20
  Jaclyn Strominger: And I would hate for you to miss something so critical um in your business.
• 37:26
  Jaclyn Strominger: So, you know, get Austin in your back pocket because you you may need um a patent attorney.
• 37:31
  Jaclyn Strominger: So do me a favor, reach out and connect.
• 37:33
  Jaclyn Strominger: And then please uh make sure to hit subscribe.
• 37:35
  Jaclyn Strominger: And lastly, uh Unstoppable Success, we have a brand new community on the school platform.
• 37:41
  Jaclyn Strominger: So please jump in.
• 37:42
  Jaclyn Strominger: It's Unstoppable Success uh on school, and you can find us there.
• 37:47
  Jaclyn Strominger: Please uh jump in and and join us.
• 37:50
  Jaclyn Strominger: Uh it's going to be free for the first hundred people, and then we may have some other things on there, but we've got great courses that are going to be coming out, so you want to take part in that.
• 37:59
  Jaclyn Strominger: And um, Austin, thank you for being a great guest.
• 38:02
  Jaclyn Strominger: I really appreciate it.
• 38:04
  Austin Bonderer: Well, thank you for having me.
• 38:06
  Jaclyn Strominger: It's such a pleasure.
• 38:07
  Jaclyn Strominger: And listeners, thank you for listening.
• 38:09
  Jaclyn Strominger: I so appreciate each and every one of you.
• 38:11
  Jaclyn Strominger: I am Jaclyn Strominger your host.
• 38:14
  Jaclyn Strominger: Keep being unstoppable and leap to your greatest success.