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So You Think You Can Be a Trump Juror? · Pod Save America

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: On today's show, MAGA Mike Johnson may lose the MAGA
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: and his job over support for Ukraine. Carrie Lake tells
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: her supporters to strap on a Glock as Arizona becomes
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: the central battleground of the 2024 election. And later, I
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: talked to Alex Garland, the writer and director of the
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: hit movie Civil War, about why he chose to make
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: a blockbuster about American democracy coming to a violent end.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: What do you think, Dan? I guess that's more of
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: a rhetorical question.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: Seem like a good year for it.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: You should see this movie. You will like this movie.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: You should see it.
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: I'm excited to see it on an airplane when I
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: see most of my movies.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: No, don't see it.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: No, no.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: You got to see it in a theater. You got
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: to do the full IMAX. I know. I know you're
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: a parent of two, so you don't do that like me,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: but you should. You should think about that.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: We'll see.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: If you want to see if you can persuade my
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: wife that one of our rare nights out will be
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: to see a movie about the end of democracy. Instead
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: of a nice dinner, the two of us?
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, go for it.
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Before we get to that, it's only been a week,
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: but Trump's election interference trial is off to a bit
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: of a rocky start, thanks to the defendant and his
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: propaganda network. So as of this taping, we do have
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: 12 jurors and one alternate. but they're still looking for
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: five more alternates after losing two jurors on Thursday. You
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: can imagine it hasn't been easy to find Manhattanites who
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: don't have a strong opinion about Donald Trump. The judge
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: has been asking potential jurors to raise their hands if
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: they don't think they can be impartial. Dozens have been
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: dismissed that way. If you make it past that round,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: you're asked all kinds of questions, many about your political
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: views and social media posts, all of which journalists in
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: the courtroom have been reporting. One of the jurors, had
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: posted in 2018, quote, Trump invites the Thai boys to
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: the White House and the boys request to return to
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: their cave. That's pretty funny. That's good. Another posted an
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: AI-generated video of Trump saying, I'm dumb as fuck. Could
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: have been more creative. And one juror, who I really
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: identify with, called himself the repost king. We stand a
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: repost king.
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: Right before we started recording, there was another juror who
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: had a tweet where she said that Trump was racist,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: and she was forced to stand up in court and
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: read her tweets. And her first comment when she had
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: to read her tweets was, oh, no, which is like
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: all of us, right? How relatable is that?
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, think about it this way. If we don't
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: all do everything we can to defeat Donald Trump, there's
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: a chance we'll all be doing that in court. Oh, yeah.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: Stay up and reading our tweets.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: You know what? Those are going to be short trials,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: and they're not going to be looking for a lot
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: of jurors.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: Judge Gorka, mercy please.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: The jury of Sidney Powell only has rendered a verdict.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: All right. Anyway. So all of this became a lot
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: less funny when Fox News host Jesse Waters started a
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: conspiracy about the fact that liberal activists were supposedly infiltrating
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: the jury, which Donald Trump then amplified on Truth Social
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: in what the district attorney is now arguing is a
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: clear violation of his gag order. Let's listen.
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: Number two, a nurse from the Upper East Side with
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: a master's degree. She's not married, has no kids and
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: lives with her fiancee who works in finance. She gets
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: her news from the New York Times, Google, and CNN.
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: She said two things that really stuck out. One, quote,
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: I don't really have an opinion of Trump. And quote,
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: no one is above the law. I'm not so sure
• 4:05
  Speaker 5: about juror number two.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: They are trying to rig this jury.
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: They are catching undercover liberal activists lying to the judge.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: They're saying, oh, have you ever said anything on.
• 4:17
  Speaker 5: Social media about Donald Trump?
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: No, I can't remember.
• 4:19
  Speaker 5: Well, what about this post where you said he should
• 4:22
  Speaker 5: be in prison?
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, that one.
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: And they keep throwing these undercovers at him.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: So the juror that Jesse Water mentioned at the beginning
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: of that clip, the nurse, was dismissed after telling Judge
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Mershon she was concerned about being publicly identified. She said
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: just based on the information that was reported out, like
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: friends were asking, was she the juror? So she was dismissed.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: The judge then barred reporters from describing potential jurors. And
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: some reporters... complaining about that. They thought it was a
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: first amendment violation. I don't know if the need to know, uh,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: demographic information about jurors, uh, sort of outweighs the potential
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: threats to their safety, but we'll see. Uh, and then
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: the judge is going to decide next week whether to
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: hold Trump in contempt, uh, for violating the gag order. Uh,
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: there are now 10 truths, um, uh, in question here
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: that the judge will be, uh, deciding whether that violates
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: the gag order. But the damage is already being done.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Trump and Mago World are clearly trying to not only
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: poison the jury pool, but public confidence in the trial.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: How worried are you about that?
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: I'd say pretty worried.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Do I think that Donald Trump, aided by a billion-dollar-funded
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: right-wing propaganda machine, can erode confidence in U.S. institutions and
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: processes and norms? Yeah, I'd say I'm pretty concerned about that. Now,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: does that mean they can render a conviction null and
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: void politically in the eyes of the public? That I'm
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: not so sure about. Right now, who's paying attention to this?
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Who's really seeing it? Who are they really mostly just
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: firing up people who already think Donald Trump's being railroaded
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: and blah, blah, blah, blah, and believe these conspiracies?
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: Probably.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, he's either going to
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: be convicted or he's not. And that's what's going to
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: matter a lot more than what Trump's saying. But what
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: he is making this process, which was already sort of messy,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: as the criminal justice system often is, seem messier. And
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: he's pushing on an open door with a very cynical public,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: a majority of whom we've seen in polls. including a
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: ton of independents and even some Democrats who think that
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: the primary purpose of these trials, all of Trump's trials,
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: is about stopping him from returning to the White House
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: or is politically motive or something like that.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: So he has public opinion on his side.
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: And, you know, we're not going to hear about the
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: jury a ton once it's seated and the trial starts.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: But Trump has already succeeded in, like you said, making
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: it seem like the uh, prosecutions are political and the
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: judge is political and the, the DA is political and
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: all this. And the one thing he doesn't have going
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: for him is, Oh, if you get a convicted by
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: a jury of your peers, most Americans, you know, tell pollsters, well,
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: that that's, that's what the constitution says. And we accept
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: that kind of verdict. And so the only thing left
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: is to impugn the motives of the jurors. And you
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: could imagine like, bunch of MAGA weirdos, like digging through
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: people's social media posts, if they can find the right person.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: And then if just one juror has lied about their,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: you know, previous social media posts or, you know, donations
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: to political candidates, and then they dig it up and, and,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: and publicize that you can see people saying, Oh, well,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: that was, that was kind of bad, you know? So
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: it is totally pushing against an open door.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: All of that is true.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Even if every juror– if no juror is ever outed
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: in this process, no MAGA sleuth ever finds anything like that,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump was already on the 10-yard line from the
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: fact that this jury is in Manhattan.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: He's already– it's a blue city.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: He got a– Lovett very impressively ran through all of
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: the math of this on Tuesday about the number of
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: votes that Donald Trump got. I mean it's– you were
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: already there, right? Once the trial was in Manhattan by
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: an elected Democratic prosecutor– you were there. But every little
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: bit is going to matter. And people are, in an
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: election like this, are looking for permission to do one
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: thing or the other, to stick with Trump or get
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: off the Trump train. And all of these things can
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: matter on the margins.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Trump will be posting a map of Manhattan and
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: the vote totals before the end of this trial, I'm sure,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: or after it's over. Trump also said he thought he
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: had the right to reject as many jurors as he wants.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: He basically posted, he's like, I thought that I get
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: to do as many challenges as I want. I thought
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: that I basically just thought he could get pick the jury.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: He just thought he could pick his jury. Just keep
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: rejecting jurors until he gets, you know, 12 people in
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: MAGA hats.
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: Just the entire Waters family.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: So I feel like I was studying a poll or
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: a focus group trying to detect the jurors political leanings
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: by reading about their demographic information and media diets. I'm
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: fine with not knowing now that the judge has said that,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: but I was interested when we did know. Do you
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: think that the lawyers and jury specialists are also Polar
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Coaster listeners?
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, how could they not be?
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Who would not listen to our hit subscriber exclusive podcast
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: that you can all subscribe to at crooked.com slash friends.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: How about that?
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: We just live for the organic plugs around here. Um,
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: I got a couple more coming too, so beware. But the, um,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a fascinating process. It is exactly what
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: every campaign does, right? This, this secret sauce of campaigns
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: in the age of data is you take where someone lives, uh, everything,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: you know, about them in terms of, are they a
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: man or a woman?
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: Do you know what their demographics are? Do you know
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: their age?
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: And then you take in other data sources that campaigns
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: get access to, which could include you know, for off
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: of social media, who do they follow?
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Who, what, you know, in the old days, this is
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: less relevant now, but like what magazines did you subscribe to?
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: You could actually get that.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: You could buy that information and see if someone was
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: a New Yorker subscriber or subscribe to the NRA magazine
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: and you, and the campaigns create a profile of every
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: single voter and potential voter, and then rate them a
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: scale of one to 10 as to how likely they
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: are to vote for your candidate. And that's exactly what
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: the jury consultants are doing here. It is, this is the,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: probably the most political trial in history.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: And it's using the.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Exact same modeling, uh, processes that, and strategies that are
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: at the core of modern political campaigns.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: And, and the one thing that they're not working with
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: is you can't actually ask people like, are you a
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: registered Democrat or Republican or who they voted for? So
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: they're there, but you can tell a lot just by
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: demographic information.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: But they can know that, right? Don't they have their name?
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: They have their name.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Uh, they have their name, but they're not allowed to
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: ask them in court.
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: But you, they run the same reason they look at
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: all their Facebook posts. You just look them up on
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: the voter.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: They are registered.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, I would encourage people to read the coverage
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: about these potential jurors because I think it would surprise
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: the typical political junkie to learn that there are plenty
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: of people that we have heard from this week who
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: even in Manhattan don't have strong opinions of Donald Trump, uh,
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: and people who have media diets that you might not expect. Like, uh,
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: there was a potential juror who said he gets his
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: news from, uh, the New York Times, Fox, the Daily Mail,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: and MSNBC. You think that's fake?
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fake.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: Come on.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: No one does that.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Well, here's what I told Lovett when he did his
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: fancy math about Manhattan. The biggest chunk of people in
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Manhattan are people who didn't vote. I mean, there's still
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: like 600,000. He was doing the number of votes for Biden,
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: the number of votes for Trump, which was very tiny.
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: But then there's just, I think it was 85,000.
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: 85,000 out of, you know, 8 million people in Manhattan.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: But the biggest chunk of people is people who did
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: not vote. And as we know, like low propensity voters
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: or people who skipped one election or multiple elections, they
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: tend to have like weird political views. They tend to
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: have more diverse media diets. They are moderate on some issues.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: They're liberal on some issues. They're conservative on some issues,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: or they just don't pay attention much. And that's like
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: a lot of voters in the country.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there is a– I mean that is true. I
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: guess my one point of disagreement would be is that
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: what really correlates with partisanship is news consumption. Just merely
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: consuming news, like consuming political news, watching cable news or
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: reading The New York Times or The Wall Street Journal
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: or Fox News or The Daily Mail, which was a
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: ridiculous suggestion there, but is someone who is much more
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: likely to vote. to engage in politics than someone who's not.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: But the vast majority of people in Manhattan and elsewhere
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: are people who just don't consume political news, right? Their
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: answer to that would be TikTok or Instagram or ESPN
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: or the local news, right?
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: And not a national news source.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: I did talk to a 20-something young woman for last
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: season of The Wilderness who, when I asked Media Diet,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: she said, TikTok, Daily Mail, And she was extremely upset
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: about the Dobbs decision and classified herself as very liberal.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: That Daily Mail just pops up, you know?
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: The Daily Mail is celebrity focused.
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Like we view it as a conservative political organ, but
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: there's just a lot of like Kardashian coverage, Real Housewives coverage,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: just celebrity stuff in there, which.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: A lot of people do get.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: No, I thought it was just interesting for, as we're
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: all out there, uh, in the next several months, like
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: talking to voters, knocking on doors, making phone calls, you're
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: going to encounter a lot of people who you'd be like, wait,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: you haven't made a decision yet. You don't, you don't
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: know who you're for. Like, how is that the case?
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: And a lot of people are just, they don't pay attention.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: They don't pay attention.
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: Um, all right.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Joe Biden has been mostly silent on the trial
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: and his staff is telling reporters that they think there
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: will be more than enough coverage without them doing anything
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: to stoke the fire. That said, Biden did make an
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: oblique joke about the trial during his campaign swing in Pennsylvania.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Here he is.
• 13:59
  Speaker 6: Under my predecessor, who's busy right now, Pennsylvania lost 275,000 jobs.
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: I mean, let's look at the facts.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: So he then got a direct question about the trial afterwards.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Let's listen.
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: His lack of ethic has nothing to do with me.
• 14:16
  Speaker 6: I have nothing to, I have not once talked to
• 14:19
  Speaker 6: anyone in my administration about Trump's legal problems. A lot
• 14:24
  Speaker 6: of them occurred well before I became president. And so
• 14:27
  Speaker 6: I have nothing to do with that.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: So what do you think about how Biden and his
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: team are navigating this and anything you think they or
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: other Democrats should be saying?
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the president is right not to talk
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: about it.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: It's just what it would just fuel the sort of
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: conspiracy theories and the Trump messaging about this that we
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: talked about before. Now, he needs to tell a story
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: about Trump that is consistent with the facts of this trial.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: I think he's been doing that.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: You guys on Tuesday talked a lot about how you
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: would talk about it in the message. I thought it
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: was all very good advice, right, about Donald Trump thinking
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: the rules don't apply to him, fighting for himself, not
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: fighting for you.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: This is background noise to the message that Biden is
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: giving out on the stump. And so they have to
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: be consistent. I think they will be.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Politico reported this morning that the Biden folks are telling–
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: and the DNC is like telling Democrats not to talk
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: about this at all.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: And I obviously agree that this should not be our
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: main message, right?
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: We shouldn't be out there every day talking about the
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: hush money trial or Donald Trump falsifying business records to
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: hide an extramarital affair from the voters or however– like
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: not when Arizona is banning abortion without exceptions and Donald
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: Trump wants to give a $ 2 trillion tax cut. But
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: I do think it's a mistake to cede the ground entirely.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Because there's this asymmetry here where the right is talking
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: about all the time. They're shaping everything that comes out
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: of it, raising these questions, spreading these conspiracy theories, and
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Democrats are saying nothing. And I don't know that, and
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I don't think you could have political conversations right now
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: with the people in your lives where this trial does
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: not come up.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: This is what is in the news. This is the
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: thing that's breaking through.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump falling asleep in the trial when it's completely
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: viral on social media. It is part of any political conversation,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: much more so than the expiration of the Trump tax
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: cuts at the end of 2025.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: And so we have to know, we have to talk
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: about it. And if Biden's not going to talk about it,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: someone else has to, right. And I, like I said,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Biden shouldn't talk about it. Just before this podcast, I
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: was working on a post for message box where I
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: was going to lay out talking points and message guidance
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: for all of us voter, you know, as we're talking
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: about the voters in our lives, about how to best
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: talk about the trial. And I just, and that's going
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: to come out in a couple of days. If you
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: want them, you should subscribe at substack.messagebox.com.
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: That's organic plug number two. But just a couple of
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: quick points, a tease, if you will. One, we should
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: always start all these conversations by making the point that
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: the law should apply equally to everyone, including the rich
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: and powerful and even former presidents.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: By the way, it was so funny that in Jesse
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Waters' tirade there, he was like, and then she says,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: nobody is above the law. I don't know about that one.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: That's the key. That's the key. That's the tell right there.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: You don't think there's one guy above the law. I'm
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: not trusting that voter.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: The second one, and you hinted this before, is that
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: it's not just that a jury of Donald Trump's peers
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: are going to decide his fate here. The actual indictment
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: itself was already brought by a jury of his peers.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: These were career prosecutors who laid out the facts as
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: they found them to a jury of Donald Trump's peers.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: who then made the decision that this should go to trial.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: And so it's going to trial.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: And then I think another point here is that we
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: have to take a step back and talk about all
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: of these trials as a way, as an example of
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: the chaos that Donald Trump brings to the White House.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: And they will be distracting from him, right? Because this
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: is not over, right?
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Let's say there's a hung jury here, it's acquitted, or
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: he gets convicted and he's not in prison, but he
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: still goes to the White House anyway. There's still the
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Fulton County trial. There are all these defamation trials. He
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: is just in this legal morass. Like, look at what
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: he's doing right now. If he's dealing with this in
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: the White House, how is he going to be able
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: to help you? How is he going to lower costs?
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: How is he going to make healthcare more affordable? We
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: have to push this forward a little bit to explain
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: how having someone who is always in legal chaos and
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: trouble prevents them from actually helping your family.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: So there's a lot more to say about it. It's coming.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: But those are, I think, some points where I think
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: we should all just be talking about this in a
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: way that explains to voters why they should care. Cause
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: I think that's a big question they're going to have.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, not a surprise after what you all heard
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: me say on, on Tuesday's pod, but like, I think the, the, the,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: the president and the campaign have been pitch perfect on
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: this so far this week. Like I love the joke
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: that Biden told, I'm actually surprised that he told a
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: little joke, but I think it's totally fair, right? He's
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: not joking about Donald Trump in jail, but, um, the
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: fact that he's a little busy, like subtle stuff like that,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I think is really good. The campaign put out a
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: memo after the first day that said, wake up, Donald.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: After stormy abortion ban coverage, Trump poll memo attempts to
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: hush panic, which is like, because I do think they're
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: going to have to get their message in this story.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: But this is the story that everyone's covering even more
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: than the press is going to be. The political press,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: at least, is going to be covering the abortion story,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: which is still much more important for the country and
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: most voters. To get that message into these stories, you're
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: going to have to make the connection a little bit.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: There was a new memo out today from the campaign
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: that said, folks, it's bad for Donald Trump out there.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: And then in parentheses, it says, or in there, wherever
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: he is this week, calls him a con man, accuses
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: him of selling people out to enrich himself, saying that
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: whatever he's doing won't help his personal life, saying that
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: he's in this to fix his personal problems. So they are,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: they're doing exactly what you're suggesting too, which is like
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: putting this trial in the context of the larger message
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: about Trump, which is that he only cares about himself.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: He's only in this to like stay out of jail
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: and to make sure that he's not broke. And he
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: really doesn't care about anything else.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: No shit.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Republicans are like, oh, terrible precedent, terrible precedent, not even
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: doing the trial in the Senate. It's like, well, you
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: send over a ridiculous fucking impeachment that's based on Mayorkas
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: just carrying out Joe Biden's policy and nothing else, then yeah,
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: we're not going to have a trial, idiots.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Oh, now they care about due process.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: I know, it's ridiculous. And over in the House, Mike
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Johnson seems like he's about to do the right thing
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: and lose his job because of it. He's decided to
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: hold a vote on four separate bills that will provide
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: support for Ukraine, Israel and the Palestinians, Taiwan, and surprise,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: ban TikTok. So whatever passes from those four bills will
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: get packaged together and then sent to the Senate for
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: an up or down vote, which is how they would,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: that's why he's kind of snuck the TikTok ban in
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: there because the Senate has not moved on that. Biden
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: said he's supportive. Most Democrats and Republicans in Congress seem
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: at least somewhat supportive, though we'll see over these next
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: couple of days. But the Marjorie Taylor Greens of the
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: world are furious, with Johnson over the Ukraine funding specifically.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: More hardliners are threatening to oust Johnson as Speaker. There
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: was a debate whether Representative Van Orden called Johnson tubby.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: Is he tubby?
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: I don't think he was tubby, but the Freedom Caucus
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: was saying that Van Orden called him tubby and said
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: that he was going to join the motion to vacate,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: and then Van Orden said, no, I'm actually defending Johnson
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: and I would never call him tubby. Ridiculous. That's what's
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: going on in the house, Dan. Johnson, to his credit,
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: does not seem phased. Here he is Wednesday night.
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: Why are you.
• 22:17
  Speaker 7: Willing to risk losing your job over this Ukraine funding?
• 22:22
  Speaker 8: Listen, my philosophy is you do the right thing and
• 22:26
  Speaker 8: you let the chips fall where they may. If I
• 22:28
  Speaker 8: operated out of fear over a motion to vacate, I
• 22:32
  Speaker 8: would never be able to do my job. Look, history
• 22:35
  Speaker 8: judges us for what we do. This is a critical
• 22:37
  Speaker 8: time right now, a critical time on the world stage.
• 22:39
  Speaker 8: I think providing lethal aid to Ukraine right now is
• 22:42
  Speaker 8: critically important.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: I really do.
• 22:43
  Speaker 8: I really do believe the intel and the briefings that
• 22:46
  Speaker 8: we've gotten that I believe Xi and Vladimir Putin and
• 22:51
  Speaker 8: Iran really are an axis of evil. I think they're
• 22:53
  Speaker 8: in coordination on this. I think that Vladimir Putin would
• 22:56
  Speaker 8: continue to march through Europe if he were allowed. I
• 22:58
  Speaker 8: think he might go to the Balkans next. I think
• 22:59
  Speaker 8: he might Have a showdown with Poland or one of
• 23:02
  Speaker 8: our NATO allies.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: And here's what Mike Johnson's loyal friend Donald Trump said
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: when asked about if he still stands by him.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Well, we'll see what happens with that.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. Standing by
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: his guy. That statement from Johnson, which was the like
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: the most. passionate he's been about supporting ukraine or really
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: i mean he hasn't said much of anything about it
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: he has been like mildly for it but also critical
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: of ukraine assistance in the past but that was like
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: a full-throated defense of nato and and and helping ukraine
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: it was to me it was like someone who has
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: had their brain pickled by fox news like shut the
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: tv off for 10 seconds and like read a real article. Really?
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: That's what you think?
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: That's what I thought. I mean, I am willing to
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: believe that Mike Johnson has completely odious views on a
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: whole bunch of issues, but was actually convinced by the
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: intelligence that this is an important vote and he's willing
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: to lose his job over it.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: The way I took this was my interpretation of all
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: those remarks was, you know what, this job, I didn't
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: ask for this job. I never really thought about it
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: before they gave it to me and it kind of sucks.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: So whatever happens, happens.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, but what do you have to gain by
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: losing your job and doing Ukraine?
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: Well, it looks like he's going to lose either way.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: No, I think if he said no to Ukraine, if
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: he said absolutely not, I'm not moving these bills, fuck off.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: He would like the Washington establishment and mainly Democrats and
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: a few random Republicans who are left, would be like
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: writing op-eds about him, but what the fuck does he care?
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, yes.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: I will just, in the spirit of good faith that
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: you brought to this conversation, I will agree with you
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: that I think he.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: Just.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Trying to deal with your knee-jerk partisanship as always, you know?
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: What jury are you trying to get on?
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: I read the Wall Street Journal editorial page.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: That's right. I... He was fine with Ukraine before he
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: became speaker and then changed his position to keep being speaker.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: You know, I guess one way, less generous way of
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: thinking about this is he realizes he's going to lose
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: his job at some point. He's probably not willing to
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: hand Ukraine to Russia for the initial three months of speaker.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: So maybe there's that.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Plenty of his colleagues.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: But you know what? Good for him. Good for him.
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: Good for him.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, I'm saying this to like, it's good
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: for Mike Johnson, but it's also infuriating because it's like, Oh,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: you believe the intelligence? Guess what? All you would have
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: had to do is... You don't even have to get
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: intelligence briefings. You could have just read the news. There
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: wasn't whatever fucking Twitter rabbit hole you've been down and
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Fox News and all that bullshit.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: And it's just a needed delay. We could have done
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: this six months ago.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. If there's a motion to vacate, he
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: would basically be ousted because they have such a small
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: margin in the House. All it would take is like,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: you know, a couple of Republicans at this point. So
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: it could be Marjorie Taylor Greene. I don't know what
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: the count is. One more, two more. It's not that much.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: So Democrats would have to step in and save him.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Do you think they should?
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: I think they will.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: It seems like it.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Some Democrats have already publicly said that if he brings
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: these foreign aid bills to a vote, they would save
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: him over that. Is it annoying that we have to
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: save him?
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 26:41
  Speaker 6: Right?
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Like the Republican Party is just like so fucked up
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: and incompetent. and at each other's throats, that it's being
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: essentially led around by Marjorie Taylor Greene, that we actually
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: have to do that. And the idea that Democrats are
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: going to vote to keep someone with views as odious
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: as Mike Johnson as speaker, just so the government can
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: function sucks. Like that really does sucks, but it's ultimately,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: it's probably the responsible thing to do here. Cause there's
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: not some, you know, Aaron Sorkin ask bipartisan power sharing.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: Agreement in the wings. It's Mike Johnson.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: And if he loses, you know, those you've seen reporting
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: about this is that a lot of problems think there's,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: that's it. There's no one else who can get the votes.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: And just so that the government will be unable to
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: function in a time of wars abroad.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: That'd be crazy.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: We also have one more funding fight. I think the
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: deadline is end of September. Remember they do not fund
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: this government through the election. So like, do we really want,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, could Joe Biden blame a shutdown on a
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: speaker Marjorie Taylor green? when he's on the campaign trail
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: in October? Yeah, and maybe it works, but like, do
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: we want to introduce that variable into the calculation? And
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: do we want just people to suffer for the government
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: shutting down because some person even kookier than Mike Johnson
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: is the Speaker of the House? And when you weigh
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: that against the political benefit we would get from the
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: circus that would come from Mike Johnson being deposed and
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: then another 50 votes till they find the next MAGA Speaker, like,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: I don't know that we got... The Democrats got much
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: political benefit out of the McCarthy ouster. So, like, I
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: don't know. I don't think it makes a huge difference.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: No one is paying... No one's paying attention. No one's paying.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: We can't get people to pay attention to this fucking
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: presidential campaign.
• 28:26
  Speaker 6: I know.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: To follow the ins and outs of Congress. Like, people are...
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: People dropped off of this podcast when you brought up Congress. No, no, no.
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: I said.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of action in Congress right now. You
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: don't think that was a.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: Oh, congressional action.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: People are like, let me go to noise cancellation mode
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: so I can't be distracted. I don't think that people
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: would notice it enough that it's worth the price to pay.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: That's how I feel.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: It should be great, but no one has dialed it
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: enough to know that.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel the same way. All right, we're going
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: to move off this topic.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: Come back, people. Come back.
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: So.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: The highest profile MAGA kook trying to claw her way
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: into Congress next year is Carrie Lake, who's running against
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Ruben Gallego for the Arizona Senate seat, being vacated by
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Kyrsten Sinema. Replacing Sinema with an actual Democrat wouldn't just
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: help the party maintain control of the Senate. Gallego could
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: be the vote needed to pass national abortion protections, voting rights,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: and other things that Sinema never loved as much as
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: she loved the filibuster. In 2022, Lake only lost to
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: now-Governor Katie Hobbs by 0.7%. She's currently trailing Gallego by
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: anywhere from five to eight points, but there's only been
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: a couple of polls in the last couple of months.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: So I wouldn't, you know, take that to the bank. Um,
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: two potential reasons she's trailing one, her previous support for
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: the state's 1864 total abortion ban, which the state Supreme
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: court has allowed to go into effect and Republicans in
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: the legislature have so far refused to repeal. And two,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: comments like this from just the other day.
• 29:59
  Speaker 7: We need to strap on our, let's see, what do
• 30:04
  Speaker 7: we want to strap on? We're going to strap on
• 30:06
  Speaker 7: our seatbelt. We're going to put on our helmet or
• 30:12
  Speaker 7: your Carrie Lake ball cap. We are going to put
• 30:16
  Speaker 7: on the armor of God. Then maybe strap on a
• 30:23
  Speaker 7: Glock on the side of us just in case.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: What do we want to strap on, Dan? It's like,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: she just left it hanging there. She's like, what do
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: we want to strap on? And you're like, oh no,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: oh no. And then the answer is God and a Glock.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: And I would say, just as someone who's a real
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: admirer of organic plugs, way to pitch the Gary Lake
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: ball cap.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Organic plugs. It just keeps getting better. So not the
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: most salacious thing she could have told him to strap on,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: but certainly the most dangerous. So there you have it.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: One candidate wants more Arizonans to have guns. The other
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: one wants them to have health care. Seems like it
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: should be a pretty clear choice now.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: You would hope.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: That's not even the first time she has said something
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: like this. She has told her supporters to arm themselves.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Not just like, I love the Second Amendment and you
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: should have the right to bear arms. Like, arm yourself
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: because this is going to be a tough election. Arm yourself. Like,
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: in the context of the election, after we just saw
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: January 6th a couple years ago. It's fucking wild, man.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: This seems like such a pedantic thing to say, but
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: the polls do show that advocating for political violence is bad.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: No, I think that's a.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, I know that sounds ridiculous.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: It's good to state. It's good to state because a
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: lot of people are like, oh, it's not going to
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: matter who's... Like, yeah, it's not going to matter to
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: her supporters. That's why they're her supporters. But, you know,
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: Arizona is a pretty close state. And there's probably a
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: lot of people who are not Carrie Lake supporters. And
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: there's some people who are undecided. And there you go.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: And there's just the fact that, like, you know, you
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: have candidates talking like that. And you have Trump doing
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: his thing. It's going to be a very contentious election.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: And it's just, it's playing with fire. It's playing with fire.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Lake has been trying really hard to pretend she never
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: supported the 1864 abortion ban. She's basically talking like she's
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: suddenly pro-choice and apparently has been calling Republicans in the
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: legislature to try to convince them to repeal the ban.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: So far, no takers in the House. I think she's
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: got a few in the state Senate who might be
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: trying now. I feel like this is going to be
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: even harder for Lake to pull off than it will
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: be for Trump, since there's audio of her saying that
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: she supports the 1864 ban.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: But I don't know.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, 100%.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: We've talked many times about how Trump gets a little
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: bit of a pass on abortion compared to other Republicans
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: because he is a sleazeball who cheats on his wife
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: and is from Manhattan, all of the above. But Carrie
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Lake is on video. There are audio recordings of her
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: supporting this law. And there is going to be, and
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: this is a low-end estimate, $ 120 million of ads with
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: that footage to show voters. She is not going to
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: be able to escape this. she might be able to
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: get voters to focus on another issue than abortion. I'm
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: very skeptical that she could actually accomplish that, but she,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: this is, she, this is a huge problem, which is
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: why she's desperately trying to get them to repeal the law.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Cause that's the one thing she could do that could
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: lower the salience of the issue.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: I also think the other danger for her in this race,
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: cause she has been trying to moderate herself here and
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: there though. Certainly not. Uh, she certainly didn't succeed with
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: that Glock comment. Um, But I think the danger now
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: is that there's going to be a large segment of
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: voters who see her as too extreme. But she's also
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: sounding like she's dishonest, full of shit, like a typical
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: politician by, you know, just saying things that are obviously
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: flip-flops in service of trying to win an election. And
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I think once you're in that territory, then you're both
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: extreme and full of shit. And it doesn't really help
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: you out too much.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, seeming like her, the reason why she did so
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: much better than Blake Masters last time was, in part,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Mark Kelly, known quantity, so much more so than Katie Hobbs,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: who Carolex was running against, but is that she seemed,
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: she has been to date the most authentic-seeming replica of Trumpism, right?
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Not just the extremism, but the on-the-stump performance, the outsider appeal.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: And if she's trying, if she becomes like a normal politician,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: that is going to undermine that bit of her strength
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: that allowed her to run ahead of some other Republicans.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So Trump's pollster put out a memo saying
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: their poll shows only 11% of Arizonans followed the news
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: about the abortion ban. It was mostly Democrats. It's far
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: from the top issue for voters and that voters prefer
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Trump's position over Biden's. Speaking of bullshit, you think there's
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: any truth to any of that or is it just all,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: what do you think?
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: I think that poll's ridiculous. I think the reporters who
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: reported on it kind of dropped the ball there because
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: the good thing is there was some transparency from the
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Trump people. They actually put out the poll questions they asked,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: and the way they framed Biden's position was absurd and
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: not in position at all.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: It says, Biden supports unrestricted access to universal abortion, including
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: abortion up through the ninth month of pregnancy, and he
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: supports taxpayer funds to pay for abortions for any reason.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: And then the Trump was like, Trump believes the decision
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: on abortion laws should be left up to the state
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: so that voters in each state can decide. However, he's
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: opposed to late-term abortion and would end federal taxpayer funding
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: of abortions. So Trump wins that 51-40, and then he
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: wins 45-41 among persuadable voters. Okay.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: Just think about it this way.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: This is actually a sign of huge weakness for the
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Trump people, which is they've given the worst possible, most
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: dishonest version of Biden's plan, and they're winning by four points.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: That was my first thought, honestly.
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: It's what I, what I think is probably true and
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: worth noting is that probably a lot of people did
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: have no idea that this law passed and that we're
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: going to have to just, this is, this whole election
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: comes down to narrowing the news chasm.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: Between what is happening and the voters.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: And so, I mean, this is like, people know a
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: lot more about this than Trump's trial, other things, because
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: it's a huge deal in the state and being talked
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: about in the state and covered in the state. But
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: People are probably not following it. A lot of people
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: are not following it closely because they're not following news closely.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: And again, this is not just a problem we can
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: yell about and yell at the media for. This is
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: a problem for all of us to help solve too.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: You always say this, we're our own messengers now. And
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: this is part of narrowing that chasm that you talked
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: about is going to be the work that we do
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: between now and November. All of us, everyone wants to volunteer.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: So here's it. Here's an organic plug. VoteSafeAmerica.com. How's that?
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: Nice.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Not as organic as whatever.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Message box. Strap-ons. Carrie Lake's ball caps.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, if the ad sales people aren't out there
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: trying to get a sponsor for the strap-on segment, I
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Strap-ons in Civil War? Is that the good title?
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: Carrie Lake straps on for Civil War.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: Speaking of Civil War, when we come back, I will
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: talk to the writer and director of Civil War, Alex Garland.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Two quick things before we go to break. If you
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: want to fight back against book bans, the Crooked store
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: is doing a flash sale on all Free the Books merch.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Free the Books tees, sweatshirts, and magnets are 30% off,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: but the sale won't last long, so make like a
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: conservative who found out about a kid's book with a
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: gay character in it and act quickly. Head to crooked.com
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: slash store to shop before the sale ends. Also, the
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: entire second season of World Corrupt, co-hosted by Tommy and
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Men in Blazers' Roger Bennett, is officially out on the
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Pod Save the World feed. If you're a fan of
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: the series, you'll be excited to hear that Roger is
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: logging on to Crooked's Friend of the Pod Discord for
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: a round of Ask Me Anything on Thursday, April 25th
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: at noon Pacific. Ask him about anything, including the making
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: of this latest season of World Corrupt, Saudi Arabia's big
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: investments into soccer, F1 racing... And honestly, any embarrassing question
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: about Tommy. That's what I'm just recommending. If you're not
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: a member, you can head to crooked.com slash friends now
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: to sign up. Check out World Corrupt. It's a fantastic series.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: If you haven't listened to the first season, check out both.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: If you have, the second season is fantastic. So take
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: a listen. If you're someone like me who worries about
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: our democracy falling apart, boy, do I have the film
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: for you. Civil War is a vivid depiction of what
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: it might look like for America to dissolve into armed
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: warring factions and what it would look like for journalists
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: to try to cover that story for the rest of
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: the world. It's number one at the box office, the
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: biggest hit yet from our friends at A24. And we
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: are lucky to have with us today the man who
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: wrote and directed the film, Alex Garland. Alex, welcome to
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America.
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: Thank you very much. Pleased to be here. Thank you.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: So for the last eight years, I have lost countless
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: hours of sleep worrying about the scenario this movie is about.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: So I wasn't really sure that I wanted to see it,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: but I did and I loved it. I've been telling
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: everyone to see it. You started writing this movie in
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: the summer of 2020, which was the beginning of a
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: period when I really felt for the first time like
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: everything here could just fall apart. Why did you want
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: to make a movie about that?
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: I would bet it's for exactly the same reasons that
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: you were spending all those sleepless nights. I was also
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: having the same sleepless nights for the same reasons. And
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: it was a huge topic of conversation in public discourse,
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: but also private like, uh, friends, family again and again,
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: and again, month after month, year after year. the newest
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: jolt of shock as the escalation of strangeness continued. Um, uh,
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: my country was in one sort of paroxysm or another. Uh,
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: so was yours. So were several other countries, many other countries.
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: And I wrote it for exactly the same reason that
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: you might have written it.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: What, how did you feel? Cause you've started writing the
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: script in June. How did you feel about the script
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: when you saw. January 6th, go down.
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: So the script pre-existed something else pre-existed as well, which
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: is there was a lot of talk. There had been
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: talk from smart people for a long time, which said,
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: if you use language in a certain kind of way,
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: if you use violent language, it will lead to actual
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: violence that that will be the product of it eventually.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: And That was one of those warnings that turned out
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: to be completely true for exactly the reasons the warning
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: was stated. And actually in the way the warning was
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: stated as well, pretty much, I think. And so what
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: I felt was a mixture of huge shock and no
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: surprise and the weird dissonance between those two things.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: I know your filmmaking is more focused on starting conversations
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: than giving answers. What was the conversation you were hoping
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: to start with this film?
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: I do say that, yeah, I do. And it is true.
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: And in a way, in a sense, the conversation was
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: with the centre-right to an extent, and that's because I'm centre-left.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: And it ran along the lines of... What are points
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: of agreement? And I think that is because one of
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: my realizations in summer of 2020 is that I would
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: always have described myself for years and years and years
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: as left-wing. If somebody said, what are you? I'd have
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: said left-wing. And in some respects, in ideological terms, I
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: could be really very left-wing on particular issues, I suppose.
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: And around that time, I realized I'm not left-wing, I'm
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: a centrist. That is to say, I'm left of center.
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: And it was the word centrist and the way I
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: felt attached to the concept of centrism and suddenly having
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: a kind of epiphany about it in a way and
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: realizing that I had framed politics as left-right and I
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: no longer in a way cared about left-right. I do
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: care about left-right on some ideological issues of, the function
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: of running a country, like how taxes are spent or
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: something like that. But I don't care about left-right when
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: the issue is centrism versus extremism. And at that point,
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: I'm a centrist and I have far, far more in
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: common with someone on the center-right than I do on
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: an extreme. Does that make sense?
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. What was going on
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: that made you think, not that you're not left-wing, that
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: you cared less about being left-wing than you did about
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: being center left.
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: Because within, within a, a sort of reasonably functioning democracy, me,
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: as it were my side trading power with the other
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: side for an amount of time is not catastrophic. It's
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: the normal running of a Western democracy. It's what you
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: would expect. In fact, it's sort of what you would
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: want in as much as that you don't really want any,
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: any one party to be in power indefinitely. because then
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: other sorts of problems start to arrive. That is typical
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: of a very kind of centrist statement, actually, but that's
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: where I am. Extremism poses something completely different, not the
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: trading of power. It starts at a certain point to
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: pose existential threats, not normal back and forth. And by
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: the way, I do want to say, because we're having
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: a political conversation that I do, I have issues with centrism.
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying it's like a great sort of perfect solution, but,
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: but when you put it alongside extremism, uh, most of
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: those problems melt away in comparison to what you're facing.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: I think that the challenge people have had in liberal
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: democracies over the last decade now is if you have a, uh,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: an right now we're seeing this in this country and
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: in your country and all over the world, a sort
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: of right-wing populism that has sort of morphed into extremism
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: that has seemed authoritarian much more in certain places than others.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: And when one party or one political movement is becoming
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: so extreme, the challenge is how do you counter that
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: without becoming extreme yourself or, but also knowing that you
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: need to warn people that they're becoming extreme.
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: Or just stop the sentence earlier. Just stop it earlier,
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: which is how do you counter that? That's it. Full
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: stop or period as you say in the States. Um,
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: one of the issues was I could see that my
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: side was failing to contain right-wing extremism. So what it,
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: whatever it was we were doing. was not effective. And
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: I became increasingly concerned about what was effective. And in fact,
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: in my country, something really odd is happening, which is
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: that the left is about to win a huge victory
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: over the right. And the right in my country has,
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: I think, objectively been extremist. And they are not winning
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: the victory in a funny way because they have done anything. Really,
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: the right has just collapsed in the way extremist uh
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: governments or parties can collapse which is really under the
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: weight of their own madness and and so the the
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: left just had to wait and in fact clearly at
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: a certain point decided to stop being extremist themselves as
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: a counter to the extreme right and the the current
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: leader whatever he might present to the world has moved
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: into a much more centrist ground and then in a way,
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: just shut up. He's just stopped speaking. He does make pronouncements,
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: but they're very kind of banal, bland, sort of broadly
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: reasonable pronouncements and just waits for the right to burn up,
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: which they're doing incredibly effectively, like they are toast. So
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: that might be, it's just not a very satisfactory answer,
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: which is wait until the other side destroys themself. Sometimes
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: something more active has to be done. The easiest thing
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: for me to say is I've got no idea what
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: the answer to your question was, except that I thought
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: one of the ideas might be to stop demonizing the center-right.
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: And somehow I felt that the left, again, which I
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: was part of, was repeatedly, effectively making the same statement
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: as Hillary Clinton made. was sort of making a basket
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: of deplorable statement again and again and again and again
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: and again. And I couldn't see how a reasonable consensus
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: would arrive out of that. People would just get more
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: fed up and more extremist. And that could, could, it's
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: a small could, but could be a road to hell.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. I have said in the past that
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: we treat sort of Trump voters as, we're trying to
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: judge them morally, which is a fine thing to do.
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: But if we want to sustain a democracy in a
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: country of over 300 million people, we got to all
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: live together because if we can't figure out a way
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: to live with these people whose political views we abhor,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: then we're not going to have a country and it's
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: going to fall apart into a civil war. And there's
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: your movie.
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: But I would say on a sort of deep internal level,
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: I don't think that's a fine thing to do because
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: I know... I have friends who are Trump voters. I
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: have friends who are right wing and they are, they
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: are not deplorable. They may be Trump voters for any
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: number of reasons. Some, some of them are actually, uh,
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: very similar to the reason I'm left wing, which is
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: the family I grew up in. I grew up in
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: a left wing family and I took on those ideas
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: and I agree with them in a, in a way
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: I'm culturally left wing. And some people are culturally right
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: wing and, demonizing people for that reason doesn't seem fine.
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: I strongly agree with what you said, that it is
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: a mistake. I believe it is a mistake to make
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: an ethical judgment on the basis of someone's voting preference.
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: You can make an ethical judgment on the basis of
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: whether they're racist or not. you can certainly make an
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: ethical judgment there. You certainly can't make an ethical judgment
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: based on whether someone believes in the free market. Um, I,
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: I don't believe in the free market, but I don't
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: think the argument for it is, uh, irrational or unethical.
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: I just don't happen to agree with it. And, um,
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: I have, I've been saying this sort of centrist stuff
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: in interviews and what, what, what people keep saying is
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: that I am a political and the film is a political.
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: And I think that that is, that is only true
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: if politics means left versus right. And if politics only
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: means left versus right, then that polarization is a kind
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: of inevitable product of that form of thinking. Uh, politics
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: should be a much, much broader term.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Um, uh, in my opinion, no, I look, I, I
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: should be probably one of those critics because I like
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: started a media company to defeat Donald Trump. Like I
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: should be one of those critics who are like, oh,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: it should have been more explicitly political. I left the
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: movie feeling like very glad you decided against that. And
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: also I thought there was more than enough context, like
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: knowing Nick Offerman was a three-term fascist president who kills journalists.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: So I thought the movie was maybe ideological, but not
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: partisan and ideological only not in the left-right sense, but
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: in the sense of, like authoritarianism versus like liberal democracy.
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. So just to say, according to my way
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: of thinking, it could be anti Donald Trump without being
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: anti right wing. And I think there's, there's a complicated
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: for me in myself, I am even unclear whether Donald
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: Trump is right wing. According to the terms, I understand
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: right wing.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: I think he's honestly, I think he's insane. I think
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: he's kind of, He's, he's sort of, he, he gives
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: indications of being unbalanced and he gives indications of being authoritarian.
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: And I, and, and I would say the right wing
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: thinking is not by necessity, either insane or authoritarian. So I, I'm,
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure whether to bracket him there. I also think,
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: by the way, if the left, this is one of
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: the things that I, I'm going to just modulate the
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: language that I'm sort of instinctively reaching for. But if
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: the left wants to combat right-wing extremism, it needs to
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: be in the business of winning elections. That's its job.
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: That is the function of the left in a situation
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: like this, is hands down, flat out to win an election.
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: And you do not win an election without usually persuading
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: people of the other side to come and join you.
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: And you don't do that by screaming at them and
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: telling them they're unethical. And I have felt personally vindicated
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: by some of the responses that I have seen, not
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: vindicated in a good way, but vindicated in a bleak
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: way by seeing the left in a way do that.
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: I find it depressing because I'm left wing. And what
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: I really want to do is remove what I see
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: as dangerous extremists from occupying mainstream political parties.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: And surely social media amplifies that problem. I mean, I
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: sit in focus groups of voters a lot. And so
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: when I see Trump voters or swing voters, like I
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: don't think people who yell about the stuff on social
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: media all the time realize how complex and weird voters
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: can be and have all kinds of different feelings and
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: positions on issues. And I totally agree on the persuasion thing.
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: Just how human they can be. Just, just how like
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: normal human beings they can be. Um, it's, uh, and
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: social media, I mean, this, this would be where I'd
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: start to betray my political colors, possibly with a different
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: sort of language is just a rampantly capitalist unregulated exercise
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: with a tiny group of super, super rich over powerful
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: people with, uh, a kind of politics that makes me twitch. And, uh,
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: and I, I kind of, um, uh, I, I think
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: in some ways, one of the things, one of the
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: questions I keep asking myself is why, why would Woodward
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: and Bernstein not be as effective today as they were
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: back in the seventies? Why is breaking a story about corruption,
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: not effective in the way it used to be? That's
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: a complicated answer, but a big chunk of that answer
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: is social media.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, no, I totally agree. Can you talk about how
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: you calibrated the level of political detail and context to
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: include in the movie? Was it pure storytelling decisions, or
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: were there some larger political landmines you were trying to avoid?
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: No, there were political points I was trying to make,
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: and I've broadly been making the points while we've been talking.
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: which is a kind of reaching out on what do
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: we agree on approach, I suppose. And also by not,
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: when I talk about extremism, that would go into two
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: different directions. I think the left are problematic, that is
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: to say the far left, the extremist left, are problematic
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: in a different kind of way to the extremist right.
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: But they're problematic if you want to win elections, I think,
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: and if you want to defeat the right, then, then
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: that becomes tricky, I suppose. Um, I think also, uh,
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: I made a set of assumptions, which is on a
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: point of agreement. Um, one of, one of the things
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: people keep saying about the film is why doesn't it
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: explain as it were that the sequence of events from
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: the present day to the start of the civil war, why,
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: why is that left blank? And one of the reasons
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: I didn't is because I don't think the reasons for
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: this civil war would lie between this point now and
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: the future. I think they all essentially lie in the past.
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: They are things that precede this moment, not things that
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: follow this moment. And in other words, they relate to
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: history and the way in which history is dealt with
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: or not dealt with. And I think that Uh, one
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: of the politicals sort of, I suppose it's an oblique
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: political statement was leaving that question deliberately in the mind
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: of the viewer, um, to, to contemplate that, uh, and, and,
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: and come to some kind of conscious or, or, or
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: by the way, unconscious conclusion. Yeah.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know you've answered a ton of questions
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: about this and, uh, I, but I always assumed that
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: the big reason that you. had Texas and California on
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: the same side is so that the discussion about the
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: movie wouldn't just be a continuation of our current political debate.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: And as someone who looks into the demographics of voters
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: and everything, I could see a situation where Texas becomes
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: a little bluer and it becomes more of a rural-urban divide,
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: which you sort of hint at in the movie as well.
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: And also these things change, but they change over time.
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: They have changed in the past and they will change
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: again in the future. Things are not concretized in that way.
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: But also I felt there was another point there, which
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: is that the president is presented as the extension of extremism,
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: which is fascism. And I'm using fascism in quite a
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: broad term, just authoritarian. It's not. it's not born from
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: the right. I mean, there are fascist theocracies, I mean, uh, or,
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: or fascist communist leaders as it were. And, um, so,
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: so what I felt was this. So if, if part
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: of the, the thinking behind the movie is what do
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: we agree on here are Texas and California agreeing. They're
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: saying actually our political positions are less important than this
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: fascist president, um, which, um, to me, in a way,
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: would be rational. In fact, I think it is rational.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: And in the face of fascism, the thing to do
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: would be to agree that it's bad. And your, as
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: it were, your family, cultural, ideological background becomes immediately secondary
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: to the problems that fascism presents.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Which is why we have a Cheney on our side
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: here in the US right now.
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: And would one want to not have a Cheney on
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: your side. For me on the left, I'm delighted by
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: it because it feels like a rational voice within a
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: party that has entirely the capacity to be rational. Rational
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: thinking literally cannot just be the preserve of the left.
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: If you think it's the preserve of the left, you
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: are being prejudiced.
• 59:08
  Speaker 6: And.
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: um i do not want to be prejudiced i can't
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: be prejudiced because i genuinely i have right-wing friends and
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: it's not an affectation i am fascinated by their thoughts
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: and opinions and also having a beer with them they
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: make me laugh and i enjoy their company and uh
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: and what.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: Of it yeah So I thought the most frighteningly realistic
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: part of the movie is how so many Americans are
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: just intent on pretending the war isn't happening and think
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: they'll somehow be able to avoid dealing with it. You
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: have characters talking about how their families are sitting on
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: farms pretending it's not happening. There's a scene where you
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: go into a town where it looks like there's no
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: war at all. Why did you want to make that
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: part of the story?
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: I bet for the reasons you think, which is number one,
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: Some people ignore everything when it's a few feet away
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: from them. And that's easy to find, right? There'll be
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: people you work with or people in your family who
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: are doing exactly that. I think there's another thing as well,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: which is that even within conflict, there can be surprising normalcy. Um,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: and so in other words, you can find a market
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: flourishing or sometimes the, sometimes points of the heated point
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: of conflict are not broadly slathered all over the land.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: They are in localized and intensely dangerous areas, but some
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: places can be surprisingly unaffected. And, and a lot of people,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: when normal life can go on. What they do is
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: continue with normal life. They will continue with it up
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: to the point that they can't. And in some respects,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 4: that is an extension of the state we find now
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: not in wartime. So there's a neat line to be
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: drawn between the two.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, I found that terrifying because I think
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: when people wonder, oh, could civil war happen here? you're like, well,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine the entire country and two armies, like
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: the last civil war we had and going at each
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: other all the time because like, look around and yeah, well,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: you could look around and everything could be quite normal.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: And then a couple of cities away, something's happening. And
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: in a way that makes the continuation and the deepening
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: of the war almost more likely because a lot of
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: people are just ignoring what's happening.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: And a lot of civil wars are not fought over
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: an issue. The Or if they are, the issue is
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 4: just generalized disintegration and factionalization.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Right, which is also scary.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 4: So your civil war is not typical of all civil wars.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 4: There was an incredibly clear issue and an ethical issue
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 4: to rally around, but that's really not always the case.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: Different factions might have an ethical issue to rally around,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 4: removing their own authoritarian leader but other ones might not. Yeah, sure.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you read Ross Douthat's column about
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: the movie in the New York Times, but his basic
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: take is that he doesn't think we're at risk for
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: a civil war because the unrest we saw between the
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: summer of 2020 and January 6th hasn't continued, was a
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: product of the extreme and unusual circumstances surrounding sort of
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: a once-in-a-century pandemic, and that most Americans just don't support
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: political violence. Like we're at each other's throat online and
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: we're always fighting and we're polarized, but we just, we,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: we don't have it in it to really be that violent.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: What do you think of that?
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: I think that could very, very easily and likely, and
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: also hopefully be true, but. But the concept of a
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: civil war can also be a form of metaphor for
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: another kind of entrenched conflict that leads to something. And
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: the thing it leads to is people suffering, um, that,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: that the product extremism and popular populist politics and division
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: does not only become bad and problematic at the moment,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: people start shooting each other. It can be problematic way,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 4: way before that point. Um, and so in other words,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: it's not like everything's fine until civil war breaks out
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: division of that sort on its own right now can
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 4: cause problems, significant problems. It not only that it can
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 4: stop other problems from being fixed. So not only does
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: it bring new problems into play, it also seizes everybody
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 4: up where a social improvement is concerned. So, so yeah, sure. I,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 4: that guy, uh, could be right. And I hope it
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 4: is a perfectly legitimate, reasonable point to make. But Civil
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: War isn't the only game in town. And this is
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: a movie being illustrative of a problem at its extension.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: But the problem it's being illustrative of is broader than that.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: So this is a movie about journalists, and you've said
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: it's about the importance of objective journalism. I talked to
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: a journalist walking out of the screening who said, she
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: was surprised because she felt that it was actually critical
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: of journalists and that the characters seemed to care more
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: about getting the story and the shot than they did
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: about anything else, even their fellow citizens and their country
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: falling apart all around them and people dying. What do
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: you say to that?
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: Well, I'd say that's a subjective response and that's typical
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 4: of responses to stories when you offer them up. That
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 4: is to say, my subjective response is that it's admiring
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: of journalists and hers is that it's critical. And, and
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 4: in some ways that could be the end of that exchange,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: except I could say why I, why I think it
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: is not critical. And I think to me, it's actually
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 4: something quite simple, which is that number one, a journalist
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 4: motivation can get separated from the product of what they do.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: So I, a journalist may well be motivated for careerist
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 4: reasons or just competitiveness. So their career, so, so, uh, careerist,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: they get a promotion, competitiveness, they get a scoop that
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: doesn't lead to a promotion, but it gives them a
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: dopamine hit, right? That's just sort of life and work
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: and stuff like that. But, but the product of that
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: journalism has a societal function. Um, so as an individual, um, Uh, like, uh,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: they may or may not, uh, demonstrate great sort of, uh,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: I don't know, uh, moral certainty and ethical behavior and
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: stuff like that. It, it, it's, it would, it would
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 4: vary person to person, but that would not negate the product. Um, and,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: and then this, so in other words, show them as conflicted,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: show them as morally compromised. It doesn't matter. That's fine.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: They're allowed to be those things. Just like I am
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 4: just like you are just like everybody is. Um, but
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 4: they are doing something else, which is the. In the
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: acquisition of the product for whatever reason it is. And
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: I think at times, by the way, Lee, the sort
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 4: of lead journalist lead photo journalist does present an ethical
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: argument about what journalists. So I would also. Listen, it's
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: not as clear as she'd like, maybe, but that's sort
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 4: of my stock in trade. So, okay. I think that
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 4: they're doing something simple alongside all of that, which is
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 4: showing enormous physical courage, huge, huge physical courage. And I
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: do admire that. So that is the other part of
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: the component. That's the other thing that I'm presenting. I've
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: known many journalists very well who do exactly that thing.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: And I admire them for it. So if I present
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: that to the world or to that journalist and she says, well,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: I don't find that admirable. I'd say, okay, well, that's
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: a difference between us. So I am, I am startled
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 4: and admiring of that. And you're not like that. And
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: by the way, if I put it like that, of course,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 4: I'm being a bit tricksy because she probably would say, yes, no,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: I do. Of course I admire that. I realized that I'm, I'm,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: I'm making a point, but, um, uh, I guess. All right.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 4: So there, there's my answer. I don't care if they're
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: conflicted as individuals. That kind of thing doesn't really bother me.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: They do great work if they do it in an
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 4: ideological way, which is to be nonpartisan or, put another way, impartial.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 4: I think that's good for news reporters to be impartial.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 4: Lack of impartiality, I would attach the social media thing
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: we were talking about before. I think it's problematic with reporters.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 4: And the other thing is they can be incredibly brave.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 4: So what's not to admire on that? I would say.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: Although I hadn't read that piece, but the, you mentioned
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 4: that's partly because I decided to detune from the smart
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: debate as well. Um, uh, I had read another thing, which,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 4: which was talking about the journalists being cold in some
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 4: of their behaviors, shooting, dying people, photographing, dying people or
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 4: tortured people or whatever. Number one is that is something
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 4: that all photographers do. And need to do it. And
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 4: the other element of that is that I think in
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 4: the example that's being used, she's actually using the camera
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: to get out of a difficult situation. for she is
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 4: using the camera to be distracting in the moment from
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 4: the direction this this sequence of events could go she's
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: trying to so so i think it's not in my
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 4: in my mind in narrative terms it's not as it
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 4: was presented but anyway that's probably it I.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: Mean, to your earlier point about social media, the movie
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: made me think that the larger incentive structure for journalism today,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: which is very driven by, you know, that the whole
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: industry is having a tough time, and so you need clicks,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: and you need audience, and you're also competing with a
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: bunch of amateurs on social media just spewing all kinds
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: of crazy information. And so I do wonder if, like,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: the state of journalism right now and sort of the
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: incentive structure is... making the problem of authoritarianism worse and
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: not better. I, I think that, uh, you know, there's
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: that phrase that arrived when that book perfect storm came out,
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: which was a very good phrase because it's so, it's
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: so useful in so many, uh, sort of events.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 4: If you have politicians for corrupt reasons, trying to undermine
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: journalism and you have social media, and you have journalistic
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 4: institutions in a state of panic about the things that
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 4: you just stated, uh, that's a perfect storm.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: And I think that is, um, I think that's why
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: we're worried about the exact scenario that you, uh, had
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: made a movie about. Um, Alex Garland, thank you so
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: much for joining Pod Save America. Uh, everyone go check
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: out Civil War. It is a, it is an intense,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: but important experience, I would say. Um, thanks. Thanks again
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: for your time.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 4: Can I say one more thing? Sure.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: You sure can.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: What I wanted to say is this is I've had
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 4: to do an awful lot of interviews for this film
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: and I almost never get a chance to say what
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: I think for various reasons. It might be the length
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 4: of the interview or it might be, I'm being overly
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 4: cautious because not everything I say is a perfect representation
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 4: of what I think. Uh, because for all the human reasons.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 4: I am grateful. I'm genuinely grateful that I got this
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 4: opportunity with you to speak more freely because, uh, it's,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 4: it's just on a personal level. It's a relief. So thanks.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you. It was, uh, it was a great conversation. And, um, I,
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: as someone who has been in politics, been a writer,
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: like I. I very much understood and appreciated sort of
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: all the intricacies that go into creating a story about
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: politics that does not feed into the current political debate
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: in a way that's counterproductive. So I think you did
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: a masterful job of that.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: Thanks, man. Appreciate it. All right. Take care. Bye, Ben.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 4: Please take care.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: All right, thanks to Alex Garland for joining us today.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: Everyone have a great weekend. Dan and I and Tommy
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: and Aaron Ryan will be at the LA Festival of
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: Books doing a live Pods of America on Sunday, and
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: you will hear that episode on Monday, and then we'll
• 1:12:06
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• 1:12:08
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