Latest / The Parenting Podcast / When Helping Gets in the Way | Ep. 228

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When Helping Gets in the Way | Ep. 228 · The Parenting Podcast

• 0:00
  Christie: I mean, their approval of me dictated a lot of my decisions.
• 0:04
  Christie: Ooh.
• 0:04
  Christie: Yeah.
• 0:04
  Christie: You know?
• 0:04
  Christie: How they felt about me, how supported they felt or didn't feel often dictated- Mm-hmm how I responded to their need.
• 0:14
  Sometimes we can fix it, and that's what makes it so hard.
• 0:22
  We can make the call, cover the shortfall, step in when things get difficult.
• 0:31
  And when it's our child hurting, helping can feel like the most loving thing in the world.
• 0:38
  But there's a question we don't always stop to ask: Should I?
• 0:53
  Cheryl: Well, good afternoon to you Joanne and Christie.
• 0:56
  Cheryl: How are y'all doing today?
• 0:56
  Joanne: Hello.
• 0:57
  Joanne: Glad to be here.
• 0:58
  Joanne: Hey, I'm doing great, thanks.
• 0:59
  Cheryl: And here we are closing out this, nice warm summer.
• 1:03
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04
  Cheryl: That we've all had.
• 1:04
  Joanne: Warm?
• 1:05
  Joanne: Yeah, hot.
• 1:05
  Joanne: Ready to tell it goodbye.
• 1:06
  Joanne: I'm
• 1:06
  Cheryl: just-
• 1:07
  Joanne: Scorching hot more like.
• 1:09
  Joanne: Uh-huh.
• 1:10
  Joanne: Okay, so I have a question.
• 1:11
  Joanne: So you guys know, I am in the phase of parenting with my young adult children.
• 1:15
  Joanne: I do have a high schooler, but I've got a couple of young adults.
• 1:18
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 1:18
  Cheryl: So you're fully in the releasing years?
• 1:20
  Joanne: Yes.
• 1:21
  Joanne: Yeah, I am.
• 1:22
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 1:22
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 1:22
  Cheryl: Who's still in your home and who's out?
• 1:24
  Joanne: So I've got my 17-year-old son who's a junior- Mm-hmm in high school, and then my daughter and oldest son are in college, so.
• 1:32
  Joanne: Oh, okay.
• 1:33
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 1:33
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 1:33
  Joanne: 19 and 21.
• 1:34
  Joanne: And, something I'm kind of starting to realize is, there's not really, like, a clear-cut path forward of how to know when to step in and help them out, in particular with, like, financial- Mm.
• 1:49
  Joanne: Oh,
• 1:49
  Cheryl: yeah
• 1:49
  Joanne: difficulties- Mm or whatever, you know?
• 1:52
  Joanne: It's really kind of a tricky thing of wanting to help them, but also just knowing they need that independence, so.
• 1:59
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 1:59
  Joanne: What do you guys
• 1:59
  Cheryl: think?
• 2:00
  Joanne: Uh, it's so hard.
• 2:02
  Cheryl: You know, that- So hard it was interesting'cause you said one thing, and then you said clear-cut path.
• 2:08
  Cheryl: In
• 2:08
  Joanne: Uh-huh
• 2:09
  Cheryl: that age of parenting,
• 2:11
  Joanne: There's no
• 2:12
  Cheryl: clear-cut anything where is a clear-cut path?
• 2:13
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 2:14
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 2:14
  Cheryl: There isn't.
• 2:15
  Joanne: There's, there's no books on this.
• 2:16
  Joanne: Right you know, no parenting books anywhere that I can find.
• 2:19
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 2:19
  Cheryl: Not at all.
• 2:20
  Cheryl: And particularly, finance is practical, you know,'cause you actually have to transfer the money.
• 2:27
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 2:27
  Christie: Mm-hmm, yeah.
• 2:28
  Cheryl: Okay, so that's a Concrete.
• 2:29
  Cheryl: example.
• 2:30
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 2:30
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 2:31
  Cheryl: I see that about everything through the releasing years.
• 2:35
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 2:35
  Cheryl: That trying to figure out, what is my role in it-
• 2:39
  Joanne: Mm
• 2:40
  Cheryl: and what is their responsibility in it?
• 2:43
  Joanne: Yes.
• 2:44
  Joanne: Right.
• 2:44
  Joanne: Yeah,'cause they still need help, but
• 2:47
  Christie: they're also- Wow learning to become adults and stand on their own two feet.
• 2:50
  Christie: Wow.
• 2:50
  Christie: Right, and y- you know, up until adulthood begins, everything is pretty systematic.
• 3:00
  Christie: Like, most kids go through the same rites of passage as they're- Uh-huh growing, where once you hit adult life, it's not like you get the first kid through the 22 marker and then- Right the next kid follows right behind because their scenarios are different.
• 3:15
  Christie: Their circumstances are different.
• 3:16
  Christie: This car- Mm breaks down and this one didn't, so you don't know what to do.
• 3:20
  Christie: You know, this one didn't deal- Right with, you know, this one got a scholarship, this one didn't.
• 3:24
  Christie: There's just all these different variables in adult life that the curriculum, so to speak, is so diverse.
• 3:33
  Cheryl: I'm thinking of all of parenting, okay?
• 3:36
  Cheryl: So if we were talking to young moms on this subject, we would say,"Remember, your children are different.
• 3:42
  Cheryl: They're individuals." Mm.
• 3:43
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 3:44
  Cheryl: But the truth really is a little bit what you're alluding to, but unless there's something really that's an outlier, they, uh, roll over before they sit up, and they sit up before they crawl.
• 3:56
  Christie: Yeah.
• 3:56
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 3:57
  Cheryl: And they crawl before they walk, okay?
• 3:59
  Christie: Yeah.
• 4:00
  Cheryl: And those steps-
• 4:01
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 4:02
  Cheryl: even though the timeline can be open.
• 4:05
  Christie: Right, it's- But- a little more linear.
• 4:07
  Christie: Yeah
• 4:08
  Cheryl: much more linear.
• 4:09
  Cheryl: That's why they have books which are, you know, whatever- Milestones
• 4:12
  Christie: by six
• 4:12
  Cheryl: months milestones.
• 4:12
  Christie: Right.
• 4:13
  Christie: Yeah.
• 4:13
  Christie: Yeah.
• 4:14
  Cheryl: But they're not.
• 4:14
  Cheryl: So true.
• 4:14
  Cheryl: No, I've never heard of a milestone book.
• 4:17
  Cheryl: You know- Uh-huh what your
• 4:18
  Cheryl A: 19-year-old Should know.
• 4:19
  Cheryl A: Uh-huh.
• 4:19
  Cheryl A: I agree with you.
• 4:20
  Cheryl A: That's why we end up talking about it so much here, because I don't hear a lot of processing what to do as we head through these releasing years- Yeah.
• 4:30
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 4:30
  Cheryl: on this nonlinear but really important-
• 4:34
  Christie: Right.
• 4:35
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm thing, because you're talking about responsibility, and work ethic, and philosophy of life, and,
• 4:43
  Christie: Independence
• 4:44
  Cheryl: independence.
• 4:45
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 4:46
  Cheryl: Everything.
• 4:46
  Cheryl: Being an autonomous individual.
• 4:48
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 4:49
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 4:49
  Cheryl: Boundaries.
• 4:50
  Christie: Yeah.
• 4:51
  Cheryl: You cannot put that on a spreadsheet.
• 4:53
  Christie: Right.
• 4:53
  Cheryl: Ugh.
• 4:54
  Christie: Yeah.
• 4:54
  Christie: Yeah, and, and I think, you know, we're saying finances, but all of those principles are drivers behind the scenes- Yeah you know- Mm-hmm of finances.
• 5:06
  Christie: So- Yep finances is just kind of the stage that it plays out on.
• 5:11
  Joanne: Right, especially as they're young adults- Uh-huh and they're getting ready to launch out into the world.
• 5:16
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 5:16
  Christie: Right.
• 5:17
  Cheryl: Because it's, again, that's black and white.
• 5:19
  Cheryl: I mean, or I should say green or red.
• 5:21
  Cheryl: Right
• 5:21
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 5:22
  Cheryl: Or-
• 5:22
  Christie: Red and black.
• 5:25
  Cheryl: There, there we are.
• 5:25
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 5:26
  Cheryl: So I think I like the way Christie's going with this, because both of us are going,"Yeah, wow, sorry, we don't have an answer for that." Except what I really think, like, when we start tackling a lot of issues here, that really, let's back up and look at the bigger picture before we come and deal with the actual finances.
• 5:48
  Christie: Yeah.
• 5:48
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 5:48
  Cheryl: Because, um, there are all kinds of books about financing and teaching on finances, and courses.
• 5:55
  Cheryl: Practical life skills type course,, how to balance a checkbook and how you did savings and how to write a budget, Mm-hmm
• 6:03
  Christie: Well, most of the time, financial problems are not money problems.
• 6:08
  Cheryl: You're exactly right.
• 6:09
  Christie: Some of us are a little more free-spirited with our lives.
• 6:12
  Christie: And a little more creative and a little more, um, you know, go with the flow.
• 6:18
  Christie: Yeah.
• 6:18
  Christie: And that, that is, I think, maybe the deeper issue- Yeah that you're dealing with a lot of times with the young adults is maturity and personality and self-control and those kinds of things.
• 6:30
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 6:30
  Christie: Not information on how to handle finances.
• 6:33
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 6:33
  Christie: Yes.
• 6:33
  Christie: Right.
• 6:34
  Cheryl: And that's what I'm saying, all that information won't help you to have that answer.
• 6:38
  Christie: Yeah.
• 6:38
  Christie: Yeah.
• 6:38
  Cheryl: And then, okay, so let's go all the way back, because I mentioned, you know, toddler and eating and crawling.
• 6:44
  Cheryl: So if we think of going back just to toddlerhood And, um, you have your new grandbaby.
• 6:50
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 6:50
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 6:51
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 6:51
  Cheryl: She's absolutely walking and running, right?
• 6:53
  Christie: Oh, sh- yeah, she's almost two.
• 6:54
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 6:55
  Christie: Coming, yeah.
• 6:55
  Christie: Wow.
• 6:55
  Cheryl: But what you have to do is when she's running faster than you know she really should, do you step in to stop her?
• 7:06
  Christie: Right.
• 7:06
  Cheryl: Or do you let her keep running- Mm-hmm and find out,"Oh, when I run this fast, I fall down."
• 7:11
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 7:12
  Cheryl: Or when they're even younger than that, that pulling up stage- Mm-hmm.
• 7:15
  Christie: Right.
• 7:17
  Cheryl: Yeah Where your hand is right there because they can- The corner
• 7:18
  Christie: of the coffee table's- Yeah right by their head.
• 7:20
  Christie: Yeah, all of that.
• 7:20
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:21
  Cheryl: How much do we cushion and soften all those blows, and how much do we have to let them develop and- Mm-hmm grow and find out,"Oh, if I do that, I fall down and it hurts"?
• 7:34
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:35
  Christie: Right.
• 7:35
  Cheryl: So that's kind of the philosophy of all parenting.
• 7:38
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:39
  Christie: Um, yeah, I mean, even back those very earliest signs, I mean, we've said it before of, you know, releasing your children begins with sleep training.
• 7:49
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:50
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:50
  Christie: You know, putting them in the crib- Yeah and you in the next room, and I think that's kind of what you're saying is from day two- Mm-hmm you're starting to ask, like,"How do I help them grow up?" Yeah.
• 8:03
  Christie: "And how do I help them become independent, and when is helping not helping?"
• 8:09
  Joanne: Right.
• 8:10
  Joanne: Mm.
• 8:10
  Joanne: Wow.
• 8:10
  Joanne: Well, that just made me think of an example of, like, a science example, but, and you probably have heard it in motivational talks, you know, about the butterfly.
• 8:19
  Joanne: When it's in- Mm-hmm the cocoon, you know- Mm that breaking out of the cocoon is actually doing something.
• 8:26
  Joanne: It's driving, you know, the blood into the wings so that it has this- Oh, I haven't heard that actually, huh.
• 8:30
  Joanne: You haven't?
• 8:30
  Joanne: It's fas- it is fascinating.
• 8:32
  Joanne: You should look it up.
• 8:32
  Joanne: Okay.
• 8:33
  Joanne: Yeah, just that whole process is 100% necessary for that butterfly to be able- That's interesting to fly.
• 8:40
  Joanne: And so when you were talking about the toddler- Yes pulling up, it just got me thinking about, like, oh yeah, they're developing- Mm their muscles.
• 8:47
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 8:47
  Joanne: Like, if you stepped in and picked up that toddler and set them up on the couch, they're not developing the strength that they need to pull them up.
• 8:55
  Joanne: So yeah, that's just great.
• 8:56
  Joanne: That's
• 8:56
  Christie: so
• 8:57
  Cheryl: true.
• 8:57
  Cheryl: O- okay, so a question that I think would've helped me, that we might consider, is to really process, not do I do this or not?
• 9:08
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 9:09
  Cheryl: What am I still doing that they're capable of doing for themselves?
• 9:13
  Cheryl: Oh,
• 9:14
  Christie: yeah.
• 9:14
  Christie: Mm.
• 9:14
  Christie: Yeah.
• 9:15
  Christie: That's a good question to ask.
• 9:16
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 9:16
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 9:16
  Cheryl: You know, we talk about each individual child, and they all come out of the same place, but they're so different.
• 9:22
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 9:22
  Cheryl: And so I didn't know.
• 9:25
  Cheryl: And so my first one was really willing to have me help dress her and do a lot of things for her, and she talked, and this free-spirited.
• 9:34
  Cheryl: So she was over four, and her little brother wasn't even two.
• 9:39
  Cheryl: And so we're getting dressed early in the morning, and he's,"I do it myself."
• 9:46
  Christie: Mm.
• 9:46
  Cheryl: I had never heard those words-
• 9:48
  Christie: Wow
• 9:49
  Cheryl: out of his big sister.
• 9:50
  Christie: Uh-huh.
• 9:50
  Christie: That's very cute.
• 9:51
  Cheryl: You know, I want it, but not- Yeah I do it myself.
• 9:53
  Cheryl: Right.
• 9:53
  Cheryl: And so there he is, below two, trying to dress himself.
• 9:58
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 9:58
  Cheryl: And I'm pulling her pants up and putting her T-shirt on, and that's when I realized, oh, I'm enabling her.
• 10:07
  Christie: Yeah.
• 10:07
  Cheryl: And I don't think this is a verb, instead of abling her.
• 10:11
  Christie: Oh, yeah.
• 10:12
  Cheryl: I am doing something for her that she needs to have the capacity to do for herself.
• 10:17
  Christie: That's good.
• 10:17
  Christie: Mm.
• 10:18
  Cheryl: And so it was unhealthy for me to keep doing that for her.
• 10:23
  Christie: Mm.
• 10:23
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 10:23
  Cheryl: And I think that's what we're talking about, is that, where am I doing for them what they should be doing for themselves?
• 10:30
  Christie: Yeah, because you said originally, um, what they can do for themselves, and I think sometimes as parents, we look and say,"Oh, they can't.
• 10:40
  Christie: They can't do this."
• 10:41
  Cheryl: Oh.
• 10:41
  Christie: But they can't learn it until they're given the opportunity- Yeah to learn it.
• 10:46
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 10:46
  Christie: Because, you know, y- I think sometimes we step in because we don't think they're capable.
• 10:53
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 10:54
  Christie: And if we give them the opportunity, they may fail the first 10 times, but it, it's something that they need to learn for themselves.
• 11:02
  Joanne: Right.
• 11:03
  Joanne: Well, and then, you know, just kinda you mentioned it could be our fear of their discomfort.
• 11:08
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 11:09
  Joanne: That so, in some ways is just kind of preventing my anxiety and
• 11:13
  Christie: angst- Oh, my goodness, yeah
• 11:14
  Joanne: versus just letting them learn.
• 11:15
  Christie: I mean, their approval of me dictated a lot of my decisions.
• 11:20
  Christie: Ooh.
• 11:20
  Christie: Yeah.
• 11:20
  Christie: You know?
• 11:20
  Christie: How, how they felt about me, how supported they felt or didn't feel o- often dictated- Mm-hmm how I responded to their need.
• 11:30
  Cheryl: But you know if we can flip it, where it quits being so much about us.
• 11:34
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 11:35
  Cheryl: Uh, because like that, helping her get dressed, that makes me feel really needed.
• 11:39
  Christie: Right.
• 11:39
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 11:40
  Cheryl: You know?
• 11:41
  Cheryl: And then I realized, oh, I need to help her develop her own capacity.
• 11:45
  Cheryl: I'm listening to what you're saying- What about if we also ask ourselves the question, when does my helping take away an experience that they need to grow?
• 11:56
  Joanne: Mm.
• 11:56
  Joanne: Mm.
• 11:56
  Joanne: That's a good one.
• 11:57
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 11:57
  Cheryl: And to use that question, like,"Can't she pull her pants up?" Instead of that,"Is this an experience she needs to grow- Mm-hmm in her becoming- Mm-hmm in her butterfly process?
• 12:07
  Cheryl: Right.
• 12:07
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 12:08
  Joanne: Wow, you know, that just makes me think back to when I was launching out into the world.
• 12:12
  Joanne: You know, I moved out of state for college, and then all of a sudden, like, I had to figure out how to, you know, open a bank account on my own.
• 12:20
  Joanne: And we didn't have the internet back then, so I had to make the phone calls and make my own appointments just because logistically- Yeah like, my parents couldn't.
• 12:28
  Joanne: And it was uncomfortable- Mm-hmm but it forced me to become more independent.
• 12:34
  Joanne: So yeah, I can see that.
• 12:36
  Christie: Well, and I think the, the Gen X-ers in the world- we were kind of responding to maybe some of that, like, hands-off parenting that we- Right received and when we're wanting to overcompensate and do things for our kids.
• 12:51
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 12:51
  Christie: 'Cause I remember similar feelings of like, I hated feeling like I didn't know what I was doing when, you know, I would have to do those adult things.
• 13:00
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 13:00
  Christie: And it was uncomfortable,..
• 13:02
  Christie: and I felt like a little bitty person in the big world.
• 13:05
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 13:06
  Christie: And so then I, in turn, was like,"I don't want my kids to feel that way." And so I wanted to do things- Yeah for them that they needed to be doing by themselves.
• 13:16
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 13:16
  Cheryl: And it is uncomfortable- Mm-hmm You know, one of the things that when I walked with my kids- Mm-hmm
• 13:21
  Cheryl A: in this, we used to have this thing called corded house phones.
• 13:24
  Christie: Yeah.
• 13:25
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 13:26
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 13:26
  Cheryl: But starting saying,"You need to make that call.""But Mom." You know, particularly- Yeah uh, the more timid ones, of reaching out and actually contacting some...
• 13:36
  Cheryl: I have adult children who are functioning very well in the world- Mm-hmm but they hate making, initiating phone calls.
• 13:43
  Christie: Uh-huh.
• 13:43
  Cheryl: They always feel like it's a cold call for a sales job.
• 13:47
  Christie: Right.
• 13:48
  Cheryl: Like a generational thing.
• 13:48
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 13:49
  Cheryl: They feel that way.
• 13:49
  Cheryl: They just hate...
• 13:50
  Cheryl: They would almost rather- Yeah drive to the store- Uh-huh and ask the question, um-
• 13:55
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 13:55
  Cheryl: Than
• 13:56
  Joanne: make the phone call
• 13:56
  Cheryl: than make the phone call.
• 13:57
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 13:58
  Cheryl: But doing that, that's the kind of equipping- Mm-hmm we wanna do- Right to walk alongside of them and-
• 14:03
  Joanne: Right
• 14:04
  Cheryl: um, if someone really has some angst about it, we don't want to throw them to the wolves-
• 14:09
  Joanne: Mm-hmm
• 14:10
  Cheryl: but That's why I like asking the questions about, how can I equip them- Mm-hmm so that they can grow?
• 14:17
  Christie: Yeah.
• 14:17
  Christie: Yeah.
• 14:18
  Cheryl: Because- That was my problem.
• 14:19
  Cheryl: They needed something, so I wanted to help.
• 14:22
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 14:22
  Cheryl: And I think if I'd had the context of capacity and growth, I think I really need to look at it as growth.
• 14:30
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 14:31
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 14:31
  Cheryl: Um, because you do it with clothes and stuff, but I just didn't think about it in this area.
• 14:35
  Cheryl: Right.
• 14:36
  Cheryl: And that word in particular would be helpful for me, you know, that my role needs to be changing as their capacity needs to grow.
• 14:46
  Christie: Mm.
• 14:47
  Cheryl: And so, you know, like the other day, I made a real mess in my kitchen sink because I had a plant and it wasn't flourishing, and that's not unusual in my house.
• 14:59
  Cheryl: Spoiler alert.
• 15:01
  Cheryl: But I went to my sink, and I pulled it up, and it was so root bound.
• 15:05
  Cheryl: I go,"Oh, this is why." It needed more dirt- Mm because it had more capacity than my- Mm-hmm little- Okay.
• 15:13
  Cheryl: Yeah pot.
• 15:13
  Cheryl: It was a cute pot.
• 15:14
  Christie: Uh-huh.
• 15:15
  Cheryl: But it was keeping it bound.
• 15:17
  Cheryl: And so I think that's such a good example- Man, that's good.
• 15:20
  Cheryl: Yeah of what I don't want for my children.
• 15:23
  Cheryl: And we could go, the plant had to get used to the new soil and- Mm.
• 15:27
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm all of that sort of stuff, but the same with our children.
• 15:30
  Christie: Right.
• 15:31
  Christie: Right.
• 15:31
  Cheryl: I don't want to limit their growth Or their capacity because I'm stepping in because- Yeah for one of us it's too uncomfortable, or I'm not giving context or questions to help me see it more accurately.
• 15:46
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 15:46
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 15:47
  Joanne: Wow.
• 15:48
  Joanne: That just makes me think of, and tell me if I'm off in using this analogy, but it reminds me of why I felt like there was great value in giving chores at a young age.
• 15:57
  Joanne: Uh-huh.
• 15:57
  Joanne: Just age appropriate chores was helping them to feel, you know, successful in something.
• 16:03
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 16:03
  Joanne: And then I'd have to resist the urge to go and correct Right.
• 16:07
  Joanne: Um, because for me, the chores thing was really important because my mom, she was so wonderful, but she did everything for me.
• 16:15
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 16:15
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 16:15
  Joanne: To the point of, like, I will never forget the feeling of being on my own and putting a dish in the sink and then realizing, oh, the only way this is gonna get washed is if I wash it.
• 16:25
  Joanne: And then learning like, oh- There's not a fairy- Yeah that's gonna do it for
• 16:28
  Christie: me.
• 16:28
  Joanne: Like it- Yeah I mean, it was so great when I was young and she did my laundry and all that, but I was really crippled there for a little bit.
• 16:35
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 16:35
  Joanne: It was a little bit harder for me- Mm-hmm because I didn't have that.
• 16:38
  Joanne: So with my kids, when they were younger, like I just wanted them to have that self-confidence of like,"I can do things."
• 16:44
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 16:45
  Christie: And confidence.
• 16:45
  Christie: Yeah.
• 16:45
  Christie: I think that's a- Oh, that's good huge thing to talk about because we think we're helping-
• 16:50
  Joanne: Mm-hmm
• 16:51
  Christie: but really, we're putting them in a position of they, they don't feel like we have confidence in them, that they're capable.
• 16:58
  Christie: Yeah.
• 16:58
  Joanne: Right.
• 16:58
  Christie: Whether they could articulate that or not, but then they don't feel confident in that area- Mm-hmm if they've never been taught and then freed up to do it themselves.
• 17:09
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 17:09
  Christie: Whether they like doing the task or not is not the issue, but in life, they're gonna walk with more confidence being able to handle things on their own and be equipped- Mm-hmm with those things.
• 17:20
  Cheryl: That's really good.
• 17:21
  Cheryl: That's great.
• 17:21
  Cheryl: I read someone, I thought it was so good, they said, letting someone struggle is not harming."
• 17:27
  Joanne: Mm.
• 17:28
  Joanne: Right.
• 17:28
  Cheryl: You know?
• 17:29
  Cheryl: And as particularly the parent watching that caterpillar trying to get out of that chrysalis-
• 17:35
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 17:35
  Joanne: Yeah
• 17:36
  Cheryl: that tendency to step in- Mm-hmm because we see struggle.
• 17:40
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 17:40
  Cheryl: Like that four-year-old struggled.
• 17:43
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 17:43
  Cheryl: And then, I mean- Right her little brother was dressed way before she was.
• 17:47
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 17:48
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 17:48
  Cheryl: And so I had to let her struggle with that.
• 17:51
  Cheryl: Um, that's why just so many things for me, like I say, the good questions or the words.
• 17:57
  Cheryl: Again, I'm a very visual person.
• 17:58
  Cheryl: And that's why I love, oh, thinking of the butterfly, the chrystalis.
• 18:01
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 18:02
  Cheryl: All of these are very visual for me to help me understand- Yeah deeper philosophy.
• 18:07
  Cheryl: And one of the things is the word scaffolding.
• 18:10
  Christie: Mm.
• 18:10
  Cheryl: Uh-huh.
• 18:10
  Cheryl: If you go to Europe, expect whatever you go to see be covered in scaffolding.
• 18:15
  Cheryl: Right.
• 18:15
  Cheryl: So the Eiffel Tower Notre Dame, but any cathedral, everything, they're always putting up scaffolding to fix it- Mm-hmm because it's old.
• 18:24
  Cheryl: But scaffolding is made to be torn apart.
• 18:28
  Cheryl: Well, I had a friend, and he was a sculptor, well-known sculpting in the area, and I learned a whole lot from him.
• 18:37
  Cheryl: And our family went in to help him with a big Wow, 12-foot sculpture that he was working on, and we just went to help him and to add some of the clay on there- Mm-hmm but one of the things he did is he built scaffolding to support it, and he said,"As I build it, it gets stronger.
• 18:55
  Cheryl: I take off parts of the scaffolding."
• 18:57
  Christie: Okay.
• 18:57
  Cheryl: And so that imagery- Mm-hmm if we don't do scaffolding, we don't know that.
• 19:01
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 19:01
  Joanne: Right.
• 19:01
  Cheryl: But particularly in this, um, the scaffolding is meant to be dismantled.
• 19:07
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 19:08
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 19:08
  Cheryl: And so if we think of our work in their lives as scaffolding-
• 19:12
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 19:12
  Cheryl: then just like what our friend, would do, he took the scaffolding off as quickly as he could- Mm-hmm because it was no longer needed, and in fact, it kept him from getting to the refining work he needed to do.
• 19:23
  Joanne: Okay.
• 19:24
  Cheryl: So when it was bulky- Uh-huh.
• 19:26
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm we had more scaffolding, and then he began to remove it.
• 19:28
  Cheryl: Interesting.
• 19:28
  Cheryl: And I just think that's a really good image.
• 19:30
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 19:31
  Cheryl: Uh, whether it's finance or whatever it is.
• 19:33
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 19:33
  Cheryl: Okay, I need to give you the scaffolding that doesn't prevent your growth- Mm-hmm so you're getting root bound, but I need to be maybe a little more intentional about how much scaffolding- Oh, yeah.
• 19:46
  Cheryl: Yeah can we remove.
• 19:46
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 19:47
  Cheryl: If he took it down too fast, the whole statue fell.
• 19:49
  Christie: Yeah.
• 19:50
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 19:50
  Cheryl: So he had to do it incrementally.
• 19:52
  Cheryl: For me, that's just a good picture.
• 19:54
  Christie: That is.
• 19:54
  Christie: Well, right, and, and kind of going back to your, um, plant, I, disclaimer, do not know a lot about plants.
• 20:00
  Christie: But I do know that sometimes a pot can be too large for a plant.
• 20:07
  Christie: That's true.
• 20:07
  Christie: Oh, yeah.
• 20:07
  Christie: Correct?
• 20:07
  Christie: Yeah.
• 20:08
  Christie: And so, you know, it's, it's very precise and nuanced work-
• 20:12
  Joanne: Mm-hmm
• 20:12
  Christie: giving your kids freedom to fail but being there to support them, and because you don't wanna throw them to the wolves either.
• 20:20
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 20:20
  Christie: You don't wanna give them a burden that's too heavy for them to carry because then they will feel overwhelmed and discouraged, and it- Yeah won't be a success for them.
• 20:29
  Christie: Yeah.
• 20:30
  Christie: So there's balance.
• 20:31
  Joanne: I've had some friends I've seen do that or, you know, just kinda maybe launch them a little too soon.
• 20:36
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 20:37
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 20:37
  Joanne: And then it can kinda damage the relationship.
• 20:39
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 20:39
  Joanne: You know?
• 20:40
  Joanne: And then there are times where, like, you financially can't step in- Right or whatever, can't help them.
• 20:45
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 20:46
  Joanne: Um, but I like that idea of the scaffolding, and then it can just be kinda customizable to the- Yes individual child and, you know, whatever their particular needs are.
• 20:56
  Joanne: And that's the thing is, like, there's not gonna be a playbook on this, I can see now.
• 21:00
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 21:00
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 21:00
  Joanne: Because they're all very different.
• 21:02
  Christie: Yes.
• 21:03
  Cheryl: I like the intentionality, and then having the conversation.
• 21:08
  Cheryl: For example, one of the things you very wisely said, it's so much easier to set boundaries first or limits first and then remove them.
• 21:16
  Christie: Mm.
• 21:17
  Cheryl: Uh, but I can think of times with my children, I did give them too much freedom- Mm-hmm on something.
• 21:23
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 21:23
  Cheryl: And they will say,"When?""When did you, when did you ever?" And then I had to say,"Oh, wait, I need to back up on this."
• 21:30
  Christie: Yeah.
• 21:31
  Cheryl: Right.
• 21:31
  Cheryl: Because I realized the statue was falling over.
• 21:33
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 21:35
  Cheryl: Uh-huh.
• 21:35
  Cheryl: It needed more scaffolding.
• 21:35
  Cheryl: Right.
• 21:35
  Christie: Right.
• 21:36
  Cheryl: But to have the conversation, not just throw up the scaffolding and bind them and say,"Hey, we gotta talk about this."
• 21:42
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 21:43
  Cheryl: Right.
• 21:43
  Cheryl: And then together let's talk about it, and what would I like to see that I can start removing the scaffolding?
• 21:52
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 21:53
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 21:53
  Cheryl: Or maybe it's one who goes,"I don't want you to remove the scaffolding.
• 21:57
  Cheryl: I, I want to stay." Like,"I don't wanna have to put my dishes in the dishwasher."
• 22:01
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 22:02
  Cheryl: I don't wanna make the call to the dentist." All those different things I guess it goes back to having the bandwidth, and for me to have margin-
• 22:11
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 22:11
  Cheryl: to be thinking about it, asking these good questions, and then having good conversation, and talking about,"No, now it's time for you to take on and do this." Yeah.
• 22:21
  Cheryl: "And I will be walking along with you-"
• 22:23
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 22:24
  Cheryl: you know, when you teach them to ride a bike.
• 22:26
  Cheryl: You don't just say,"Here, get on a bike," and let them go down the freeway.
• 22:30
  Cheryl: That holding behind- Mm-hmm running alongside- Mm-hmm and you let go a little bit and then you hold back on.
• 22:35
  Cheryl: Right.
• 22:36
  Cheryl: Again, I think that's- Right a really good picture for all the decisions we're talking about.
• 22:40
  Cheryl: Right.
• 22:40
  Cheryl: That I want to release you when you're ready, but then I'm right here to hold on- Yeah a little bit if I need to, and then you're gonna have to fall over and scrape your knee sometime.
• 22:49
  Cheryl: Right.
• 22:49
  Joanne: Right.
• 22:50
  Cheryl: But I've got a big box of Band-Aids here.
• 22:52
  Joanne: Right.
• 22:52
  Joanne: Well, and, and then Christie, you know, I love your thought too about the, when you realize that your pot's too big maybe.
• 22:58
  Christie: Uh-huh.
• 22:58
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 22:59
  Joanne: That maybe it's okay to, okay, we need to reevaluate.
• 23:02
  Joanne: Yes.
• 23:02
  Joanne: Maybe go to a medium-sized pot- Right for a time.
• 23:04
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 23:05
  Joanne: And then we'll try it.
• 23:05
  Joanne: We'll keep that big pot to the side- Yeah.
• 23:08
  Joanne: Uh-huh and later we'll come back and...
• 23:09
  Joanne: So that's so helpful.
• 23:10
  Joanne: Both of these analogies have been
• 23:12
  Christie: so
• 23:12
  Joanne: helpful.
• 23:13
  Christie: Yes.
• 23:13
  Christie: Yeah, because the, the bike riding, Regardless of how long you have to stay there with the training wheels- Yeah and ready to catch them, there is still that, I think we can all remember that feeling of it's a very scary moment when- Oh, yeah you realize you're alone, and I'm doing this, and nobody's holding me.
• 23:30
  Christie: Uh-huh.
• 23:30
  Christie: And I'm going down this hill, and what happens next?
• 23:33
  Christie: And so regardless of the support you offer, there will still be that moment of pure terror- of I've gotta make this phone call, or I've gotta go into the bank, or I've got to pay- Right this bill- Mm-hmm on my own, and if I don't, it's on me.
• 23:49
  Christie: But that doesn't mean you did it wrong.
• 23:50
  Cheryl: No.
• 23:51
  Christie: Yeah.
• 23:51
  Cheryl: It was,
• 23:52
  Cheryl A: what we were Saying, struggling is not harming or bad.
• 23:55
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 23:56
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 23:57
  Cheryl: And you're a personal trainer.
• 23:59
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 23:59
  Cheryl: If someone never picks up a heavier piece of metal, they're never gonna get stronger.
• 24:04
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 24:04
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 24:04
  Joanne: That's right.
• 24:05
  Joanne: I've actually had a, a client one time, and she was in a session, and she's like,"When is this gonna get easier?" And I was like,"Hey, it's not." Like, that's the whole point.
• 24:13
  Joanne: You don't want it to.
• 24:13
  Joanne: I was like,"You don't want easy.
• 24:15
  Joanne: That's not what you come here for," because yeah, you only grow stronger when it's the increased resistance and the challenge, and then just that satisfaction, you know, that we want for, of-
• 24:25
  Cheryl: Yeah
• 24:25
  Joanne: being able to do things, and you realize,"I am stronger," and you can do things.
• 24:28
  Joanne: So
• 24:29
  Cheryl: yeah.
• 24:29
  Cheryl: Well, the satisfaction of that little, whatever, four to six-year-old, whatever they are, when they're actually riding the bike.
• 24:36
  Joanne: Yes.
• 24:36
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 24:36
  Cheryl: And they go,"Look, I can do it.
• 24:38
  Cheryl: I can do it." Mm-hmm.
• 24:38
  Cheryl: And then they wanna tell everybody that's what we want to build in.
• 24:42
  Cheryl: Standing there with the Band-Aids.
• 24:44
  Christie: Right.
• 24:45
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 24:45
  Christie: Yeah, you don't want a 30-year-old-
• 24:48
  Cheryl: Right
• 24:48
  Christie: that's still dependent on you and doesn't- Right feel confident in their life choices and decisions that they have to make because you've been there so close to do everything.
• 24:57
  Cheryl: When we shouldn't have been.
• 24:59
  Christie: Right.
• 24:59
  Christie: Yeah.
• 24:59
  Cheryl: That's the deal, because it has to be individualized.
• 25:02
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 25:02
  Cheryl: But when we shouldn't have been.
• 25:03
  Christie: Yeah.
• 25:04
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 25:04
  Cheryl: We wanted to help them grow.
• 25:06
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 25:07
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 25:07
  Christie: And that's great encouragement for the younger parents that are listening right now- Yeah because they're like,"Okay, I've got a four-year-old.
• 25:13
  Christie: I wanna start working on these things now until, b- before we get to 18." If you've got a 23-year-old, and you're like,"Okay, I'm hearing you guys say these things- Mm-hmm that maybe I held on a little too tight and supported a little too much, and that's why we're in the boat we're in now"-
• 25:30
  Cheryl: Or that I
• 25:30
  Cheryl A: failed them
• 25:31
  Christie: Yes.
• 25:32
  Christie: I, I just wanna say, like, it's not too late.
• 25:36
  Christie: No.
• 25:36
  Christie: No.
• 25:36
  Christie: You know, because I think we can all think of our adult kids and s- Sure and see places where we have made those same choices- Mm-hmm and supported too much, and enabled a little bit.
• 25:45
  Christie: And so you're not alone, mom or dad- Mm-hmm that's feeling that right now.
• 25:49
  Christie: No.
• 25:49
  Christie: There's still a way through this challenge.
• 25:52
  Cheryl: Just-
• 25:53
  Christie: Yeah
• 25:53
  Cheryl: I, I mean, you were just saying, Joanne, the balance, the pot's too big, the pot's too little.
• 25:57
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 25:58
  Christie: Yeah.
• 25:58
  Cheryl: This is the thing, parenting is not a precise-
• 26:02
  Christie: No
• 26:02
  Cheryl: accomplishment.
• 26:03
  Cheryl: That's why we have these conversations.
• 26:05
  Christie: Yeah.
• 26:06
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 26:06
  Cheryl: Because it's the processing of life with individual people-
• 26:10
  Christie: Yeah.
• 26:11
  Christie: Right
• 26:11
  Cheryl: and the realities and the limitations and all of this.
• 26:15
  Christie: Right.
• 26:16
  Cheryl: And so there's grace for every bit of
• 26:18
  Christie: it.
• 26:18
  Christie: Yes, and continual humbling and apologizing- Oh, yeah.
• 26:22
  Christie: Yeah when you're a little too far up, you're a little too far down.
• 26:25
  Christie: Yeah.
• 26:25
  Christie: You're too far left, too far right.
• 26:27
  Christie: Yeah.
• 26:27
  Christie: That's
• 26:27
  Joanne: right.
• 26:27
  Joanne: And like with everything we talk about, uh, over and over again, it's communication.
• 26:31
  Joanne: You know, like you said- Mm-hmm you know, apologizing if needed.
• 26:34
  Joanne: Or like in the example I gave earlier of my mom, you know, doing all the things for me.
• 26:39
  Joanne: When I understood why she did it, she would tell me,"I want you to have a childhood." She didn't have that.
• 26:45
  Joanne: Aw.
• 26:45
  Joanne: She had way too much responsibility at too young of an age.
• 26:49
  Joanne: So when I understood the place she was coming from- Yeah it helped me.
• 26:53
  Joanne: I wasn't resentful,.
• 26:54
  Joanne: and I learned the things.
• 26:55
  Joanne: Sure.
• 26:55
  Joanne: And I was okay.
• 26:56
  Joanne: You know, maybe I didn't learn them as early as my friends did or whatever- But it's gonna be okay
• 27:02
  Cheryl: Okay, you know what?
• 27:03
  Cheryl: Because what you just described is what I think is the core psychology statement about what the best of the best say about parenting, and it's Doctor, Urie Bronfenbrenner, and you can look him up.
• 27:17
  Cheryl: I don't know how many doctorates he has.
• 27:19
  Cheryl: And his big, long studies and everything he did in psychology and child development, everything else, and if you summarize what he came down to saying, every child just needs to know there's somebody who's irrationally crazy about them.
• 27:35
  Joanne: Mm.
• 27:36
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 27:36
  Cheryl: I
• 27:36
  Joanne: like that.
• 27:37
  Joanne: And
• 27:37
  Cheryl: so it was
• 27:37
  Cheryl A: your mom's
• 27:38
  Joanne: Mm-hmm
• 27:39
  Cheryl: love of you that put a wash over everything.
• 27:42
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 27:42
  Cheryl: Oh.
• 27:43
  Joanne: That's true.
• 27:44
  Cheryl: She loved me.
• 27:45
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 27:45
  Cheryl: The rest is details.
• 27:46
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 27:47
  Cheryl: Now, messy details and important details maybe, but what you feel from your mother was she loved
• 27:54
  Christie: you.
• 27:54
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 27:54
  Cheryl: And you were valuable.
• 27:56
  Christie: Yeah, and I did appreciate it.
• 27:56
  Cheryl: And if I could say anything to the parents, that's the message that will transform your children's lives.
• 28:03
  Christie: Mm, mm-hmm.
• 28:05
  Christie: All
• 28:05
  Cheryl: right?
• 28:06
  Cheryl: Okay, so back to the finances.
• 28:09
  Cheryl: I
• 28:09
  Christie: know we've got a little philosophical- Yeah.
• 28:11
  Christie: this time.
• 28:13
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 28:14
  Cheryl: What about if we come back again, and then we actually start processing the practical thing, particularly about money?
• 28:21
  Joanne: That would be very
• 28:22
  Cheryl: helpful.
• 28:22
  Cheryl: What in the world- Yeah.
• 28:23
  Cheryl: where, how much do you step in?
• 28:24
  Cheryl: What do you do?
• 28:25
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 28:25
  Cheryl: Do you pay for this?
• 28:26
  Cheryl: Do you buy the car?
• 28:27
  Cheryl: Do you- Mm-hmm.
• 28:27
  Cheryl: You wanna do that?
• 28:28
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 28:28
  Joanne: That would be wonderful.
• 28:29
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 28:29
  Joanne: Thank you.
• 28:30
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 28:31
  Cheryl: Thanks, y'all.
• 28:32
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 28:32
  Cheryl: So parents, remember, hang in there.
• 28:34
  Cheryl: Keep loving.
• 28:35
  Cheryl: Keep persevering because it's worth it.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I keep coming back to that picture of scaffolding in our parenting.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Maybe this week, just look around a little.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Is there one place where you could begin to make a little more room, and see what your child does with it?
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: We won't always know exactly when to step in or when to step back, but paying attention to where the scaffolding is and whether it still belongs there is a pretty good place to start.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Before we go, I wanna take just a minute for something a little different.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: This week marks five years of the Parenting Podcast, which means we're beginning our sixth year together.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Five years of sitting around this table talking honestly about parenting, and five years of you joining us.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Whether you've been here from the beginning or found us somewhere along the way, thank you.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: It means a great deal to me that you listen and that you keep coming back.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: And as we begin this sixth year, I'd love to ask you to help us widen the circle a little.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: If the Parenting Podcast has been helpful to you, would you share it with a friend?
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: There may be another parent in your life who would value a place in these conversations.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: Five years.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: I'm really grateful, and I'm looking forward to year six.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Hang in there.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: Keep loving.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Keep persevering, because it's worth it.