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Submitting To The Local Church · The Reformatory

0:00
[SPEAKER_06]: What do you got for me?
0:02
[SPEAKER_07]: I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do
0:32
[SPEAKER_06]: As long as I'm not for me, we could have had the benediction right there, that was so good.
0:36
[SPEAKER_04]: What's going on everyone and welcome to the reformatory, the podcast for the local church and by the local church and we are your local churchman.
0:43
[SPEAKER_04]: My name is Josh and I'm here as always with the man Jack.
0:49
[SPEAKER_04]: Barry.
0:50
[SPEAKER_04]: Jack, it is good to be with you.
0:52
[SPEAKER_04]: We had a comment on one of our YouTube, the YouTube version of the podcast asking where they can find the telemokat because they need it.
1:05
[SPEAKER_04]: You got to let the people know where to get the telemokat because they're
1:10
[SPEAKER_04]: They're digging it.
1:12
[SPEAKER_04]: I think they want one.
1:12
[SPEAKER_04]: So let them know him.
1:14
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, I mean, you can go down.
1:16
[SPEAKER_05]: I literally went down to the Tiluma Creamery and got to went to the source.
1:21
[SPEAKER_04]: I went to the gate like people were in Gucci going to Gucci buy in Gucci.
1:25
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just cheese.
1:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, that a person.
1:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
1:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
1:29
[SPEAKER_04]: So exactly.
1:30
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
1:31
[SPEAKER_04]: So you can go to the Tiluma Corgan.
1:33
[SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I'm sure they've got one online.
1:35
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure if you I'm sure if you can go online.
1:37
[SPEAKER_05]: You can check it out and they probably have I mean in the gift shop.
1:41
[SPEAKER_05]: It's pretty crazy There's a ton of cheese in there.
1:44
[SPEAKER_05]: There's a ton of This is good.
1:46
[SPEAKER_05]: There's a ton of exclusives as far as like items go in that gift shop.
1:51
[SPEAKER_05]: It's stuff you can't get online.
1:53
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you're not walking out of the telemok cheese factory with a bag of cheese curds like Ready to demolish when you get home.
2:01
[SPEAKER_04]: You're you're not doing it right
2:03
[SPEAKER_05]: Did we add some like we were we were on that trip with two other families and we brought home like two or three other cheeses and like this spicy jam Yeah, dude.
2:15
[SPEAKER_04]: I love cheese.
2:18
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so bad.
2:19
[SPEAKER_04]: I love how bad I love it anyway.
2:21
[SPEAKER_04]: We're not here to talk about cheese We're here to talk about the local church, but before that we've got a couple of
2:27
[SPEAKER_04]: People to hallowed through the whole, some people that took advantage of the discounted month, right, the 50% off the first month of Patreon, that we did, if you missed out on that listeners, don't worry, we'll do it again.
2:43
[SPEAKER_04]: It'll happen.
2:44
[SPEAKER_04]: But we had two other people join the ranks of the
2:57
[SPEAKER_04]: Nathan and Jason I don't know if they like if they conspired because those names are you know pretty similar they sounds like a kind of like you know What what was the what was the the two man singing Simon and Garfunkel only it's Nathan and Jason right so you guys could be a focusing Nathan and Jason sounds like an evangelical duo band from the night shaming chair.
3:23
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Nathan and Jason
3:26
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they're out here doing covers a good good father.
3:28
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, 100%.
3:30
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they're opening for Keith and Christine getty.
3:34
[SPEAKER_04]: The band Jason and Nathan.
3:36
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, 100%.
3:37
[SPEAKER_04]: But Nathan and Jason, you two are the real ones.
3:41
[SPEAKER_04]: You guys joined the podcast and we
3:43
[SPEAKER_04]: sincerely hope that you enjoy all of the exclusive content that you find there.
3:47
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, hope is hope it's worth it guys.
3:50
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for joining.
3:52
[SPEAKER_04]: We appreciate both of you and Jack are pledge.
3:57
[SPEAKER_04]: Our vow has been fulfilled and the names of Nathan and Jason have been Halued.
4:03
[SPEAKER_04]: Halued.
4:04
[SPEAKER_04]: Halued through the halls of the podcast.
4:06
[SPEAKER_04]: That is what we do.
4:08
[SPEAKER_04]: That is what we've got today.
4:12
[SPEAKER_04]: It's gonna be a good day.
4:13
[SPEAKER_04]: I can feel it in my bones.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's gonna be a good episode But before we hop into today's topic.
4:19
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what time it is.
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[SPEAKER_07]: That's right time for everyone's favorite segment Don't forget to eat your instant grams I know the time you haven't been waiting for Oh, I'm a very proud cast presents Don't forget to eat your instant grams with your host Josh loved us on Jack Mary and remember kids It's not heresy if you're a little hard enough
4:42
[SPEAKER_04]: This is don't forget to eat instant grams and remember kids it's not here See if you believe it hard enough that is how it works Jack my man and here's the thing I just got it.
4:50
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm gonna preface this first video.
4:51
[SPEAKER_04]: I say this Genese is doing too much.
4:55
[SPEAKER_04]: They're doing too much
4:56
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, they're doing too much.
4:57
[SPEAKER_04]: They're trying too hard.
4:59
[SPEAKER_04]: They're trying too hard.
5:00
[SPEAKER_04]: Everyone wants to know while, as I am on the instant gram, I will get inundated with Gen Z Reels.
5:08
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll get in the rabbit hole of Gen Z Instagram.
5:11
[SPEAKER_04]: Don't do it.
5:13
[SPEAKER_04]: And...
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[SPEAKER_04]: Genzy specifically like church culture Instagram.
5:18
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, and I just got to say this.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Genzy has gone too far.
5:22
[SPEAKER_04]: What you were about to see?
5:23
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god.
5:24
[SPEAKER_04]: I had to see and now you're going to see it too.
5:27
[SPEAKER_04]: As always, it's in gentlemen, make sure to be head on over to YouTube so you can watch these Instagrams as well.
5:32
[SPEAKER_04]: Listen to them.
5:32
[SPEAKER_04]: It's much better over there, but Jack, prepare yourself.
5:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't!
5:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You come down!
5:57
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going to your house?
6:16
[SPEAKER_05]: and that goes on that continues there was way too many Beyoncé and other dance moves in that career they're ripping off people
6:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Come and do my house, come and do my house.
6:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm just, uh, Jen, what are they, when are they going to get?
6:39
[SPEAKER_04]: My brothers, my brothers and sisters in Christ, what are you doing, what is going on?
6:45
[SPEAKER_04]: Who are they going to get you to make this trademark infringement?
6:49
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, who made this and thought to themselves, yeah, post it, yeah, this fire God.
6:56
[SPEAKER_04]: That's, this is fire.
6:58
[SPEAKER_04]: Guys, what are we doing as look as as a millennial someone who took the brunt of like Millennials crawled so Gen Z could run Okay, like we took the brunt of so much Just take it from somewhere.
7:13
[SPEAKER_04]: This is this is this is horrible.
7:15
[SPEAKER_04]: This is beyond cringe.
7:17
[SPEAKER_05]: This is bad I don't know if I could say I took the brunt because I became a christian college, so I mean I did really
7:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Right there.
7:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Right there.
7:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
7:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Dude, that is a hundred percent.
7:33
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a hundred percent.
7:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my goodness.
7:35
[SPEAKER_03]: You're right.
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[SPEAKER_03]: All single ladies.
7:37
[SPEAKER_03]: All single ladies.
7:39
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a submersive message.
7:41
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a submersive message.
7:43
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the exact same deal.
7:45
[SPEAKER_05]: Dude, I feel like they're trying to talk to single Christian women through this song.
7:50
[SPEAKER_05]: And the only one they're way they're going to do that is through this.
7:53
[SPEAKER_05]: Dude, this is insanity.
7:56
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, all right, well I got one more for you.
7:59
[SPEAKER_04]: Gosh, all right, well, if you think that this is trying to talk to Christian single women, Jack, wait until you get a load of this next video, ladies, I want to say, look, Valentine's days coming up.
8:12
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, no.
8:12
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, and, you know, Valentine's Day is about, you know, showing expressing love to our spouse.
8:20
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, most of the time I got to say, you know, ladies, ladies, uh, sometimes, sometimes you'd be slacking in that department.
8:26
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I'm just saying, Valentine's Day is just much for the guys.
8:30
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, you, you, you wives, you wives, listen to the reformatory.
8:35
[SPEAKER_04]: I know, I know you're listening.
8:37
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, your husband's got an on and you're in the back,
8:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know about other women, but I treat my husband like his Jesus, so pretty sure that's the secret to marriage, actually.
8:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm back to make a quick, sticky toffee pudding because I don't want him to have the same desire for you, yes or no, I don't want him to have something new.
9:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm really tired, and I've been crying the words you've been all day, I'm exhausted.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't want him to have the same desire as me, so if you treat your husband with his Jesus
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[SPEAKER_05]: I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure that's a man's happened.
9:26
[SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no wait, you're against this My girl be spit and truth dude.
9:31
[SPEAKER_04]: Are you for saving me ladies?
9:33
[SPEAKER_04]: He's lead at that The key to it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We're putting.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so I'm making him sniffy sticky toffee pudding because I want to make sure he doesn't have the same dessert here had yesterday
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[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want that one because Jesus wouldn't want sticky toffee put in twice on a row.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He didn't know what it was.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Did you?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Ladies.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Take some notes.
9:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Listen to your sister here.
9:57
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, daddy.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Y'all ladies be slacking and you know, here's the thing.
10:02
[SPEAKER_04]: If you want a happy marriage, ladies.
10:04
[SPEAKER_04]: If you haunt America's full of happiness, your husband like a cult.
10:08
[SPEAKER_04]: Treat me like I'm Jesus.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's all, just, just, just treat me exactly the way you would treat the sinless, spotless husband of the church.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And everything's going to be fine.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I don't understand what's so hard about this.
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[SPEAKER_04]: The equation at two and two equals four, ladies.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just saying.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Just as the Mormons, just see how they call God.
10:35
[SPEAKER_05]: That's worked out well for them, hasn't it?
10:37
[SPEAKER_05]: No, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Just make your husbands some sticky toffee pudding.
10:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Everything will be fine, everything.
10:47
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, we'll work.
10:51
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, man, dude, they were they they'd be hitting the day.
10:54
[SPEAKER_04]: That's some good stuff.
10:55
[SPEAKER_05]: I sent Josh a couple that that honestly we're so cringe We're they that we did that we cut it.
11:00
[SPEAKER_04]: We couldn't put him on that they were literally cult like so we could they 100% were yeah We'll have to talk about that on the page here on more than likely, but Jack my man I didn't even mean for this big sentence speaking a submission
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[SPEAKER_05]: Unbelievable.
11:20
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Speaking of biblical submission.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We're talking today about submitting yourself to the local church.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And what does that mean?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Why is that important?
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[SPEAKER_04]: And why do so many people seem to have such an aversion?
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[SPEAKER_04]: and a dog on hard time doing that.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so that's what we're going to talk about today.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm going to throw over to Jack first, Jack.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Why would you say in your summation?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Your summation?
12:03
[SPEAKER_04]: Why is this a foreign topic to so many people?
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[SPEAKER_04]: And when we talk about submission to the local church, especially in the broader Christian context,
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[SPEAKER_04]: kind of glaze go over the eyes and people kind of confused about like, well, what do you mean submit to my local church?
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[SPEAKER_04]: That sounds abusive.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That sounds that sounds that that doesn't sound right and right and so why do you think that in our culture today submission within the local church is so foreign and people have an aversion to it?
12:36
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think one part of it is the, the, the water we swim in, it doesn't cultivate that.
12:45
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
12:45
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
12:46
[SPEAKER_05]: When your, when your country is very much, um, which I will say this, even though I will say, I will give a minus to our culture and what has happened in its development.
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[SPEAKER_05]: over the years since the Constitution was written, I would say that the framers couldn't really ever imagine that would come to this to be quite honest.
13:09
[SPEAKER_05]: So in some sense you kind of have to give it to the framers for what they did in kind of making our country.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And putting kind of the cultural kind of points of what we focus on is like freedom of speech, freedom of worship.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Those aren't necessarily bad things, but into one sense they didn't put very individualistic, very kind of freedom based.
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[SPEAKER_05]: values into our culture, and those values have not bred ways in which I think we would like to see people kind of show themselves to God, meaning submission is not
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[SPEAKER_05]: a submission, especially submission to God and submission to your local church is not something that comes easy to anybody.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Both men and women.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, right.
14:08
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think that's a, I think submission is a dirty word in our culture today.
14:13
[SPEAKER_05]: Yep.
14:13
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, yep.
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[SPEAKER_05]: If I were to say submission, I think more often people would kind of cringe at that.
14:23
[SPEAKER_05]: And then I think on top of it as well, too, yeah, you just have a way in which people haven't been really taught that or what that looks like or a healthy way of what submission looks like, both biblically and in the life of their local church.
14:42
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah.
14:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
14:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
14:44
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I completely agree.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I think you hit the nail on the head.
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[SPEAKER_04]: that the whole concept of submission today, especially in the context that we find ourselves in, it is a dirty word, and it is something that I think great against everything that we have grown up with valuing here in the West, especially within the United States, right?
15:09
[SPEAKER_04]: Now look, I'm thankful for my freedom, I'm thankful to be an American, I'm glad that I live here.
15:15
[SPEAKER_04]: but as with every country in the way that it corresponds with the Christians that are in that country, there are unique issues that come against the church that they need to deal with, right?
15:26
[SPEAKER_04]: So the church in China has unique issues.
15:29
[SPEAKER_04]: The church in Pakistan has its unique issues and the church in America has its unique issues, right?
15:33
[SPEAKER_04]: We might not be facing
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[SPEAKER_04]: you know, religious persecution as those other churches are.
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[SPEAKER_04]: But we face, I think, in some ways, and even more insidious issue.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And that is that the freedoms that we have here in America, although they are, they are great, and we can be thankful for them and utilize them to preach the gospel.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I think by and large, they've made a lot of people lazy in their faith and complacent.
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[SPEAKER_04]: in actually digging into what is the responsibility of me as a faithful church member, right?
16:10
[SPEAKER_04]: Because there's no threat and there's no consequence.
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[SPEAKER_04]: There's no fear that goes with that of worrying that, okay, if I join this, you know, I'm taking on an identity and becoming part of a community that is under persecution, right?
16:31
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So the stakes are much lower, right?
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[SPEAKER_04]: And that being the case, I think submission is something that naturally, and I'm talking about the natural human, we fight against, we buck against because I think every Christian, whatever culture that you're in, are natural bent.
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[SPEAKER_04]: without the prompting and the work of the Holy Spirit is to be our own God, to be our own authority.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's what we naturally want.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And what we will naturally gravitate toward.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And if we are not living in a way that is informed by the Holy Spirit into the authority of God's Word, we are going to naturally make decisions that fall in line with our natural state, our natural flesh, right?
17:18
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's gonna be ultimately,
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[SPEAKER_04]: What are things that I can do?
17:22
[SPEAKER_04]: Where are the places that I can go?
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[SPEAKER_04]: What are environments that I can be in?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Where I am allowed to be who I want to be without any type of accountability, right?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Any type of structure, with any type of submission, I want to be in charge.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And I think a lot of folks have that mentality when they come into the local church and they don't even realize it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And that's why membership within a local church is such an important topic because it,
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[SPEAKER_04]: naturally comes against those things, and naturally forces people to view the local church as something other than just something that they receive from, right?
18:05
[SPEAKER_04]: That they take from.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's something that requires something of you.
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[SPEAKER_04]: If we're going, if we're understanding membership correctly, right?
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[SPEAKER_04]: So when we talk about submission to the local church, we're talking about something that does not come naturally.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's something that is fueled by the work of the Holy Spirit, and it's something that is a biblical and worthwhile thing to do.
18:27
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, I think there's multiple ways that we show our submission to the local church, and a lot of those ways I think are.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I think just kind of add practical right and then other ones that I think maybe are a little bit more maybe some people don't really don't really think about it a whole lot right so we're going to talk about just a couple ways that we show submission.
18:54
[SPEAKER_04]: in our local church as members and why we think that's important.
18:59
[SPEAKER_04]: So Jack, for the first one that I have here is a big one in our culture today.
19:06
[SPEAKER_04]: And that is the importance of submitting yourself to the elders of the church.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Right?
19:16
[SPEAKER_04]: The God has placed the elders of that church that he has sovereignly put.
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[SPEAKER_04]: over you, he's done that for a reason, right?
19:27
[SPEAKER_04]: And he's done that intentionally, right?
19:30
[SPEAKER_04]: And we as Christians are called to give our submission to the elders of the church.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And that means that we, uh, we,
19:41
[SPEAKER_04]: we honor them, we respect them, and by and large, we understand that the Lord has put them in our lives specifically to watch over our souls as those who will give an account, right?
19:55
[SPEAKER_04]: So, what scripture tells us.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And I've got chapter 26,
20:03
[SPEAKER_04]: paragraph six of our confession, the 1689, I think speaks to this very well.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It says, the members of these churches are saints by calling, visibly manifesting and evidenting in and by their profession and walking, their obedience unto that call of Christ and do so willingly because consent to walk together.
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[SPEAKER_04]: according to the appointment of Christ, giving up themselves to the Lord and to one another by the will of God in professed subjection to the ordinances of the gospel.
20:40
[SPEAKER_04]: So we see even in our confession, the working out of what does it mean to submit yourself to the local church?
20:47
[SPEAKER_04]: We see
20:55
[SPEAKER_04]: to give up yourself unto the Lord, and to one another.
20:59
[SPEAKER_04]: That does not sound like individualism.
21:04
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
21:05
[SPEAKER_04]: And that is something that I a lot of people, especially in the context of Jack and Iron, would have a great problem with, is it not?
21:12
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I would go a step further.
21:14
[SPEAKER_05]: There's a really good quote, Cyprian, one of the very early church fathers, he said, if God be like your,
21:22
[SPEAKER_05]: if God be your father, then the church would be like your mother.
21:25
[SPEAKER_05]: And so I view of this in very kind of mainly because I think my mom died when I was a younger younger man, but the church has been kind of that.
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[SPEAKER_05]: motherly figure in that sense too.
21:40
[SPEAKER_05]: And if you look at it, scripturely, Jesus and his bride, the church is Christ's bride.
21:45
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm trying to use kind of more imagination kind of towards that language while using Christians of the past to kind of show that like the church is there.
21:54
[SPEAKER_05]: for the upbringing and flourishing and discipleship of God's people.
22:00
[SPEAKER_05]: Just like Jesus, just like the scriptures talk about how Jesus is the bridegroom and the church is the bride.
22:09
[SPEAKER_05]: If God be our father, the church is our mother in the sense, right?
22:15
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think that's a important distinction to make because I think a lot of people think that
22:23
[SPEAKER_05]: When we talk about submission, it's kind of like what happens in Mormonism.
22:28
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
22:28
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
22:29
[SPEAKER_05]: Where you get one guy who's getting called a prophet by no reason.
22:33
[SPEAKER_05]: And then you're told to willfully and joyfully submit.
22:39
[SPEAKER_05]: And just do everything we tell you.
22:42
[SPEAKER_05]: That is not what Josh and I are telling you right now.
22:48
[SPEAKER_05]: Josh and I are telling you that scripture is commanding us to look at our brothers and sisters in Christ and see that there is greater purpose in our community with one another in the church.
23:02
[SPEAKER_04]: versus us trying to go at alone and trying to fight off things using the the carnal man within us so yeah absolutely absolutely yeah and that's that's important to understand right that submission does not require you to leave your brains at the door typical submission knows and understands this these standards of scripture
23:22
[SPEAKER_04]: right and it means and because we understand those, that is why we submit.
23:27
[SPEAKER_04]: So submission has its limits, whether it be in marriage or whether it be in the church and those limits are often is the word is the word of God being violated.
23:37
[SPEAKER_04]: If it is, I am called to submit to a higher authority than my elders and that is the word of God.
23:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
23:45
[SPEAKER_04]: So, and that's, again, why I am a huge proponent of confessionalism, right?
23:53
[SPEAKER_04]: Because although the confession is not scripture, it's not inspired.
23:58
[SPEAKER_04]: We do hold to the confession as a good and right interpretation of the standards of scripture by which we are ruled in the church, obviously under the authority of scripture, but authority nonetheless, right?
24:11
[SPEAKER_04]: And the confession
24:14
[SPEAKER_04]: does not have more authority than the Word of God, but it has more authority than us elders.
24:19
[SPEAKER_04]: And if we step out of line, our people are at Monish, it is their duty to cease their submission and call us to submit to the thing that we have agreed to mutually submit and walk.
24:33
[SPEAKER_04]: and walk with, which is ultimately the word of God, and then the confession, the standards of our church, right?
24:40
[SPEAKER_04]: Which leads me to the second one is you must submit when you are coming into a local church and become a member, you submit to the standards of that church, right?
24:53
[SPEAKER_04]: And here's the thing.
24:54
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what I think a lot of people don't get.
24:57
[SPEAKER_04]: Is that submission does not equal subscription?
25:01
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, when we talk about submitting to a local church or submitting to the 1689 right when we have new members come in we're doing new members class right now and every Sunday I've got a big group in my living room that's going through going through a new members class I love it.
25:18
[SPEAKER_04]: But we have to understand that submission does not equal subscription and what that means.
25:23
[SPEAKER_04]: is you do not have to agree.
25:26
[SPEAKER_04]: At least in the case of redeemer, some other churches might do things a little differently.
25:30
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm comfortable with how we do things.
25:32
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't have to agree with and personally subscribe to the 1689 in order to be a member at our church, but you must agree to submit to it.
25:42
[SPEAKER_04]: And what that means is you submit and understand, knowing that this is the standard of the church, this is what's going to be taught, this is what's going to be preached, this is what's going to be counseled, this is what's going to be discipled with, these are the standards that we have agreed.
25:57
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you want to join the membership of Redeemer, you must submit to that understanding, right?
26:04
[SPEAKER_04]: It also means that you agree not to speak against it.
26:06
[SPEAKER_04]: Don't be divisive, right?
26:08
[SPEAKER_04]: Don't cause dissension in the ranks.
26:10
[SPEAKER_04]: in your lack of subscription do not be unsubmissive, right?
26:18
[SPEAKER_04]: So when you join the members of a church you are agreeing to the doctrinal theological and practical standards of that church and it would be wrong and sinful of you to join that church either in the knowledge that you are going to cause division or somewhere halfway through you come to a different
26:39
[SPEAKER_04]: And as long as your church is not obviously being heretical or teaching outside of Scripture, you know, if you come to a different place in your theology than the standards of the church, and you can't abide by staying there.
26:56
[SPEAKER_04]: It is on you to leave or it is on you to seek a body to where you can be more like minded.
27:04
[SPEAKER_04]: Do not seek to change the standards of the church because that's not your job as a single person.
27:12
[SPEAKER_04]: When you join the members of the church, it you must understand that you are submitting to the scriptural, doctrinal, practical standards of that church and if you cannot point in scripture that they are heretical at a step of scripture, you must submit to them.
27:28
[SPEAKER_04]: Doesn't mean you have to subscribe to them, but you do have to submit to them.
27:32
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think that's probably the hardest thing to walk through with church members.
27:39
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, especially when there is a disagreements on not a doctrinal issue, but more of an issue in which
27:51
[SPEAKER_05]: an interpretation of culture commons comes into play.
27:56
[SPEAKER_05]: So, I'll give you an example, that happened in which our church was moving from one service or from two services to one service, and we're moving from
28:07
[SPEAKER_05]: our church building into a public school auditorium, right?
28:12
[SPEAKER_05]: So we had cultural flags when we got into that auditorium to public school, there was LGBTQ flag and a Black Lives Matter flag.
28:21
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
28:21
[SPEAKER_05]: And some of the people, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say,
28:26
[SPEAKER_05]: It was like half an hour.
28:27
[SPEAKER_05]: People who were attending were a little bit like, I don't agree with us going in there and worshiping and it's like, okay, well, what if we covered it up?
28:37
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not like it's an idol.
28:40
[SPEAKER_05]: And they were equating it to idols.
28:43
[SPEAKER_04]: That was a problem.
28:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
28:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
28:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
28:45
[SPEAKER_05]: So a lot of it has to go to when we talk about like subscription and submission or when we talk about those words.
28:55
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we worked on basically covering up those flags.
29:01
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, like, is there a reason why, like, you wouldn't go in there.
29:07
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, the flag's still there.
29:08
[SPEAKER_05]: We just covered it up and it's like, sure.
29:11
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
29:11
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, then that's a reason.
29:12
[SPEAKER_05]: Then that's a more conscience case.
29:15
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, and you're like, well, we can't really, we want the same things.
29:18
[SPEAKER_05]: But it seems like you guys, your conscience is not willing to go there.
29:21
[SPEAKER_05]: So where do you want to go from here?
29:23
[SPEAKER_05]: Kind of, and looking like going to another church or whatnot?
29:27
[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, there's there's issues like that that come into place where it's tough because it's like, okay, it's a public school, like we know what we're getting into on that level, but if we cover up those things that are culturally,
29:47
[SPEAKER_05]: And still like show that they're not really like interfering with the way that worship's going.
29:54
[SPEAKER_05]: Are you okay consciously and coming to that, you know, standard and coming to that area to worship in that with your local church?
30:05
[SPEAKER_05]: So sometimes.
30:07
[SPEAKER_05]: It's both, and, you know, there's, there's stuff that comes along with that freedom of the conscious stuff and we're not going to bind consciences where we don't think we should bind consciences.
30:17
[SPEAKER_05]: And so, yeah, there's stuff like that that comes into play where we talk about subscription and submission and stuff on those lines.
30:23
[SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, it's really tough to win.
30:27
[SPEAKER_05]: We're all trying to come and it seems we all came to the right conclusions, except it's like, well, we got to get rid of these flags.
30:34
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's like, but the flags are just flags.
30:39
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, it just sounds like here doesn't mean we're agreeing to it.
30:42
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's not a huge 30 foot statue of our governor or anything like that.
30:47
[SPEAKER_05]: that.
30:49
[SPEAKER_05]: Not yet.
30:53
[SPEAKER_05]: There's stuff like that that there's a little bit of gray area on.
30:58
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not completely black and white and that's where I think it's helpful when we talk about submission that you can be submissive to your local church and have opinions.
31:11
[SPEAKER_05]: and be completely committed to them, but also having the freedom and liberty of the conscience that you do to bring up things with them.
31:21
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think good pastures can feel those things pretty well.
31:25
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think amateur pastors will take pretty hard-line stances.
31:31
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
31:31
[SPEAKER_05]: And become offended when someone's in the reason behind.
31:34
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know, why they practice the way they do, right?
31:36
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
31:37
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, no 100% 100% and I think I think there's a couple of the ways we saw our submission to the church Don't want to this episode to be crazy long, but I think one way is you submit your time your treasure and your talent
31:51
[SPEAKER_04]: That's something that you do.
31:53
[SPEAKER_04]: We need to be intentional with making the local church priority and central to our lives.
31:59
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's one of the ways that we so show our commitment and submission to it is that you're submitting those things that you would otherwise want to keep to yourself and have free reign over.
32:10
[SPEAKER_04]: You're submitting that to
32:12
[SPEAKER_04]: The governance is that Scripture gives us for being generous, right, and to supporting the work of the ministry, right, as we're told in, Oh, second, let's see, first.
32:28
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, where is it?
32:30
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, first Timothy chapter five, right, starting over 17.
32:33
[SPEAKER_04]: Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching for scripture says you should not muzzle the ox when it trades out the grain and the labor deserves his wages.
32:44
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's talking about.
32:46
[SPEAKER_04]: the those pastors that are called to full-time ministry and are supported by the church so that the work of the ministry can continue, right?
32:54
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, if we go back to our confession, which is not more authoritative than scripture, but more authoritative than you.
33:01
[SPEAKER_04]: Chapter 26, paragraph 10, the work of pastors being constantly to attend the servants of Christ in his churches in the ministry of the word and prayer with watching for their souls as they must give an account to him, right?
33:13
[SPEAKER_04]: That's that Hebrews 13 language right there.
33:16
[SPEAKER_04]: It is incumbent on the churches to whom they minister not only to give them all due respect,
33:20
[SPEAKER_04]: but also to communicate to them of all their goods, things according to their ability so that they may have a comfortable supply without being themselves entangled in civilian affairs, and may also be capable of exercising hospitality toward others, and this is required by the law of nature and by expressed order of our Lord Jesus who has ordained that they preach the gospel
33:48
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
33:48
[SPEAKER_04]: So what we see here is a submission of our money, the things that we as Americans hold as, you know, very, we, we hold it very high higher than I think a lot of us want to admit that we do.
34:03
[SPEAKER_04]: but we're supposed to be generous with that and to see the good of our church and the work that is being done there and the preaching of the word, the teaching of the word, the discipling, the counseling, we see that as important and worth investing in and submitting our finances too, right?
34:18
[SPEAKER_04]: And submitting our time and our talents to support the church, that's something that we do, right?
34:25
[SPEAKER_04]: And the last thing that I'll say, and Jackie can speak on this, too, is at the beginning of that, right?
34:29
[SPEAKER_04]: We see the work of pastors, right, and the admonishment that they must watch out.
34:36
[SPEAKER_04]: for the souls of people because they will give an account.
34:38
[SPEAKER_04]: That's again, Hebrews 13, 13, 17, right, starting as 17.
34:44
[SPEAKER_04]: It says, Obey your leaders and submit to them.
34:46
[SPEAKER_04]: For they are keeping watch over your souls as ones who will give an account, let them do this with joy and not groaning.
34:52
[SPEAKER_04]: For that would be of no advantage to you, right?
34:56
[SPEAKER_04]: And what our confession here says is that, look,
34:59
[SPEAKER_04]: you have a responsibility as a church to submit to those that God has placed over you.
35:06
[SPEAKER_04]: All right.
35:07
[SPEAKER_04]: And the very particular thing that I would like to key in on because I know I know we started, like we started with this people thinking like, well, like we already covered submission to others.
35:15
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, we did specifically one of the primary ways that you do that.
35:23
[SPEAKER_04]: is one listening to your pastors when they come to you with exhortations or concerns, right?
35:32
[SPEAKER_04]: Because they have been placed in that position by God, and two, and this is the big one, especially in the context that we find ourselves in today.
35:43
[SPEAKER_04]: Your pastors should be the primary people that you are going to when you are looking for guidance.
35:52
[SPEAKER_04]: when you're looking for encouragement, when you're looking for discipleship.
35:59
[SPEAKER_04]: And we have too many people today that are going to YouTubers and podcasters and bloggers long before they even think about going to their own pastors and what ends up happening is they are quote-unquote pastored by these online guys and they end up having more
36:22
[SPEAKER_04]: toward these guys who have never met them, who have never sat at a kitchen table with them, who don't know them.
36:28
[SPEAKER_04]: They don't even know your name, no.
36:31
[SPEAKER_04]: But you show molar loyalty to those guys on the YouTube and the Twitter, then you do the pastors that God has placed in your life specifically to fill that role.
36:45
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's dishonoring.
36:47
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
36:47
[SPEAKER_04]: because now when your pastors begin to teach or preach something contrary to these online guys that you are following, well, all of a sudden now you have a problem because it doesn't line up with the discipleship that you are getting from some guy again who doesn't know you exist.
37:04
[SPEAKER_04]: He's not your pastor.
37:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
37:07
[SPEAKER_04]: He's not the one that God has called into your life.
37:10
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, I'm not saying that we can't utilize a podcast or YouTubers and being encouraged by them, of course we can.
37:18
[SPEAKER_04]: But let's just take this personal, and I'll throw it to you, Jack.
37:21
[SPEAKER_04]: Listener, I'm talking to anyone who's coming through your headphones, come into your car.
37:26
[SPEAKER_04]: If you are going to this podcast, the reformatory, if you're coming to Jack and I, for how you should think about certain issues, before you go to your own pastors,
37:39
[SPEAKER_04]: unsubscribed to this podcast until you get your life straightened out, because that is not what this is for.
37:48
[SPEAKER_04]: You're not your pastors.
37:49
[SPEAKER_04]: We are here to encourage you.
37:51
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, maybe to give you some information that you haven't heard before, right?
37:54
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe maybe you learned some things in this podcast.
37:57
[SPEAKER_04]: You're encouraged by this podcast.
37:58
[SPEAKER_04]: I hope you are.
37:59
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the point of what we're doing.
38:02
[SPEAKER_04]: but we are not your pastors.
38:04
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you are going to us or any other podcast, any other YouTube or any other blogger before you're going to those that God has placed in your life, you've got your priorities mixed up.
38:17
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
38:18
[SPEAKER_04]: And you need to reorient that because that's not good.
38:22
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and on top of it too, I don't think I think your, I think the view of the local church
38:29
[SPEAKER_05]: maybe you look at it as more of a waste station than an actual home.
38:34
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
38:35
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
38:35
[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe.
38:37
[SPEAKER_05]: Because what you're talking about Josh about using your talent treasure, your time, that's family language.
38:43
[SPEAKER_05]: That's that's familiar language that intentionally.
38:47
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
38:48
[SPEAKER_05]: And then on top of it as well,
38:53
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, listen, my pastors are not going to blow people away with sermons, even though I think their sermons are really great.
39:01
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
39:01
[SPEAKER_05]: In my mind, and nourish me very well, spiritually, but if you're going to other people for sermons and stuff like that,
39:13
[SPEAKER_05]: You're just not really understanding the view of the local church and in particularly very good ways that scripture talks to us about the local church being because when you gather with your local church.
39:28
[SPEAKER_05]: Those pastors are responsible for your spiritual well-being.
39:32
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
39:33
[SPEAKER_04]: As those who will give an account to God.
39:35
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
39:36
[SPEAKER_05]: They are the ones that really care for eat.
39:38
[SPEAKER_05]: So this is really interesting too.
39:41
[SPEAKER_05]: I'll say this and maybe turn the page here, but Rich Mullins.
39:46
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
39:47
[SPEAKER_05]: I know the story.
39:49
[SPEAKER_05]: He, Lichmore and C.C.
39:50
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, yeah.
39:52
[SPEAKER_05]: He would say, listen.
39:54
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm really glad that you guys are coming to us and coming to our concerts.
39:59
[SPEAKER_05]: And one clip because, but listen, we don't know Jack about theologically, about stuff here.
40:07
[SPEAKER_05]: And on top of that, we don't know you, right?
40:10
[SPEAKER_05]: And he goes, yeah, I want our concerts to hopefully be a source of entertainment, but if you want real spiritual nourishment, you should go be with your local church.
40:22
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's the absolute truth.
40:24
[SPEAKER_05]: Like you should treat those YouTube things as a dessert option.
40:30
[SPEAKER_05]: Not the main course.
40:31
[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
40:32
[SPEAKER_05]: And those things should be things that you should maybe bring up in relation to what's going on within your local church, but they're not the main course.
40:40
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
40:41
[SPEAKER_05]: Because those people out there don't care about you.
40:44
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm not trying to be mean about it, but they don't know you exist and they don't know what you're going through versus your local church and the pastors and the pastors elders and the deacons that are over you trying to look out for your well-being.
40:58
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I can't tell you how many times I have seen, heard, and also experienced.
41:06
[SPEAKER_04]: individuals come to the pastors and say so you know you've said this or you preach this so and so so and so would disagree with you you know fill in the blank with any popular theologian and honestly as call us as it sounds like I get to the point where I just want to be like I don't care what so and so thanks
41:26
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't care.
41:27
[SPEAKER_04]: They're not God.
41:28
[SPEAKER_04]: They're not scripture and they're not my television.
41:31
[SPEAKER_05]: Give me the verses.
41:33
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I'm going against.
41:35
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so discouraging to pastors when their members go to other people.
41:44
[SPEAKER_04]: other sources of encouragement, other sources of discernment of information before they come to the ones that are literally laboring for your soul that are pleading for you on behalf to the Father that are spiritually burdened for you.
42:07
[SPEAKER_04]: That's their job.
42:09
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's what they are doing day in and day out and you you bring to them the disagreements that you have because you know so and so said this and so until believes this isn't the position Dude, I don't care
42:23
[SPEAKER_04]: Are they the ones that you are calling when you need help?
42:27
[SPEAKER_04]: Are they the ones that are checking in with you when you are in distress?
42:31
[SPEAKER_04]: Are they the ones that are faithfully putting together their sermons and their teaching with specifically you in mind to encourage you?
42:39
[SPEAKER_04]: No, they're not.
42:41
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
42:41
[SPEAKER_04]: No, but you're treating them like the ribeye and they're not right.
42:46
[SPEAKER_04]: Here's the reformatory dude.
42:47
[SPEAKER_04]: We are we're confetti.
42:49
[SPEAKER_04]: We're sprinkles.
42:50
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what we are.
42:51
[SPEAKER_04]: We are not the main course.
42:53
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what you get at your local church.
42:55
[SPEAKER_04]: You get the meat and potatoes at your local church.
42:57
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you want to do this, sir?
42:58
[SPEAKER_05]: You want to do it in the whipped cream.
43:00
[SPEAKER_05]: We're the, Yeah, I mean, we're at least whipped cream.
43:02
[SPEAKER_04]: Come on.
43:03
[SPEAKER_04]: Come on.
43:03
[SPEAKER_04]: Come on.
43:03
[SPEAKER_04]: We're at least whipped cream.
43:05
[SPEAKER_04]: We're at least stopping.
43:07
[SPEAKER_04]: We're at least stopping.
43:08
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe we might be the dessert, depending on the episode, right?
43:12
[SPEAKER_04]: Some episodes, a little bit more like sprinkle.
43:14
[SPEAKER_04]: Some episodes you get a full banana split, right?
43:16
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm just saying.
43:18
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we are not the main course guys.
43:19
[SPEAKER_04]: We should be supplemental to encourage you.
43:22
[SPEAKER_04]: Do not come to us before you go to your pastors, right?
43:28
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
43:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Submit to your local church.
43:31
[SPEAKER_04]: It's good.
43:32
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a good thing to do.
43:33
[SPEAKER_04]: You will be encouraged.
43:34
[SPEAKER_04]: You will be edified and it's how the local church is supposed to work and everyone is blessed and nourished when the body is functioning the way that the body should.
43:47
[SPEAKER_04]: So, Submit to your local church.
43:49
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not a dirty word.
43:50
[SPEAKER_04]: It's fantastic.
43:52
[SPEAKER_04]: and thank your pastors, thank your pastors that are looking out for you watching over your souls, there's a lot of pressure there and thank them for the work that they do and utilize your podcasts and your YouTubers and your bloggers utilize them lightly and keep them in your proper place.
44:15
[SPEAKER_05]: Yep.
44:15
[SPEAKER_05]: That's all I got.
44:16
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's all I can really say to you.
44:18
[SPEAKER_05]: Jack!
44:19
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah!
44:19
[SPEAKER_05]: That's the heck outta here.
44:21
[SPEAKER_05]: Ladies and gentlemen, if you appreciate what Josh and I do to supplements the work of the local church and try to make the local church central to the global church.
44:29
[SPEAKER_05]: So if you're the mentor.
44:31
[SPEAKER_05]: You can follow us on the sociables, if you will, you can comment, give us a comment, question, concern, episode idea all on those sociable platforms.
44:44
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, the Facebook, if you will, the Metaverse, the Instant Gram, as well with Chocolate Marshall, Marshmallow, Sprinkle.
44:52
[SPEAKER_05]: Heresy on there, maybe a little bit.
44:53
[SPEAKER_05]: I guess, and then also the, so as they go formally known as Twitter X, all of the tag at Reformatory Pod, Josh, you can tell the lovely people how they might support us further in our endeavors.
45:05
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely, I will do that, Mr. Jack, if you guys want to support the podcast or multiple ways you can do it, head on over to YouTube, and you can watch this episode as well as listen to it, it does make the Instagrams so much sweeter, believe me, especially this week.
45:20
[SPEAKER_04]: If you choose to do that, like comment subscribe, hit the little bell for notifications, we appreciate that.
45:24
[SPEAKER_04]: As much as, again, we are not the main course, we are dessert, but as often happens, desserts are sometimes best shared.
45:34
[SPEAKER_04]: And so if you are encouraged by the reformatory and you want other people to be encouraged by the reformatory to make their local church central, then maybe share the episode, send it over to somebody.
45:43
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe give us a rating and a review in Apple.
45:47
[SPEAKER_04]: We'd really appreciate that, that'd be awesome to see.
45:49
[SPEAKER_04]: And that would help get the podcast out to more people last but not least,
45:54
[SPEAKER_04]: You got to follow Nathan and Jason, the newest CCM band at the conference circuit opening for Keith and Christine Getty, 2026 at the St. Comference Nathan and Jason, now if you want to follow these legendary dudes in supporting us at the reformatory for $5 a month, that's all it is, it's less than a Starbucks drink, a month.
46:17
[SPEAKER_04]: you get bonus episodes, you get this episode early, you get a whole bunch of fun stuff down there.
46:23
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you choose to do so, I pledge to you as you have heard this episode is that your name shall be Halloween, Hallowed Sena, Hallowed, Hallowed through the halls of the podcast that is our pledge to you.
46:33
[SPEAKER_04]: We thank you all for listening and we will catch you on the next step of the reformatory.