Latest / Real STRength with Sarah Draper / The Freedom to Reflect with Joe Byerly | #11
Transcript
- speaker-0: A lot of our ambition and a lot of our drive doesn't come from a place of warrant. It comes from like some sort of wound, something we're running away from in order to maintain the things that I value. I have to invest time in the things that I value. Am I bringing the right effort to the thing that I'm doing? Like I have my life before reading and writing a reflection and I after. speaker-1: Welcome to the Future Walk Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Drapert. Each week on the podcast, I explore tools to help you lead your best now and into the future, and I talk with top leaders to see how they stay focused when life gets cluttered. It's time to stop reacting to your life and start leading it. Welcome to Future Walk. Welcome to the Future Walk Podcast. I'm Sarah Draper, and I'm so glad you're here. And today I'm joined by Joe Byrley, founder of From the Green Notebook, a retired Army Lieutenant Colonel, a writer, a podcaster, and author of two books: My Green Notebook and The Leader's 90-day Notebook. The Future Walk helps you to step out of the external noise, those daily fires, those back-to-back. Meanings, there's constant demands on you to think clearly about what's most important. Joe's read, write, and reflect framework helps you capture what you're learning, distill your experiences into wisdom, and grow as a leader through those intentional practices. And both practices start with this: Leaders, you've got to take care of yourselves. You cannot lead others well if you're not creating. The space to think, learn, and reflect. Now, Joe and I did a fireside chat at an army convention called Land Euro in Wiesband, Germany, last summer. And that's when I got to know Joe. And I learned really quickly how well regarded he is in the Army and why. He's got a wealth of knowledge and real-world experience, and I'm excited to explore how our work overlaps and what leaders. outside the military can learn from him. He's also a great person, a friend, and a mentor. So I'm thrilled to have him on. So Joe, welcome to the podcast. speaker-0: Sarah, thanks for having me on and and you forgot something. Like my kids or my daughter doesn't care that I have all this stuff. Yeah. ⁓ because I upload the podcast to YouTube, I'm a YouTuber. speaker-1: You're a cheese. speaker-0: That's that's all I've known as to her. Yeah, but going back to Germany, I was gonna say that it was awesome watching you ⁓ facilitate your workshop in and teaching. And so I learned equally from you during our our brief time together. speaker-1: That's all that matters. Well, I I I appreciate that. And I was not gonna say anything to embarrass you, but now that you've done that to me, I am gonna say he is like a rock star. We couldn't walk anywhere with him. Because he's had Joe, you've had such a phenomenal positive impact on so many people. it was it was it was so joyous to see because you truly have changed people's lives and you continue to do so. So I would love if you would share with These listeners, what your journey and your background have been. I mean, you've got obviously all those credentials, but like what is from the green notebook and how how have you used it? speaker-0: Yeah, I guess I I'll go back. So I joined the army in two thousand four, graduated from college in December of ⁓ three. And, you know, like I I really didn't know what I wanted to do. I just know I wanted to be in the military. And so one of the things in the military that we get issued, it's in our supply rooms, is this government I think government issued green notebook. ⁓ you know, it's free, you don't have to pay for it. ⁓ you know, you get one and then as soon as you fill it up or most likely lose them, which is which is what happens. ⁓ you can just go get a new one. And so, you know, throughout my career, I was going to meetings, ⁓ you know, through combat tours, ⁓ through training exercises, always had this this green notebook on me. ⁓ and we would do something called the after action review, which I know you're familiar with, and just try to capture lessons. ⁓ but I I was like filling up all these notebooks with all this hard one experience. ⁓ and that's kind of like where it stayed, unless you know, you you and I were having a conversation like we did in Europe. And then I would share some stuff that from my notebook, you shared some stuff from yours, but that really like that was the reach of the notebook. And so I was working on a project in 2012 ⁓ for then Major General H.R. McMaster, and it was this self-study program that people could go to, they could read, ⁓ they could reflect. ⁓ they could do all these things online, but we were doing it through a US Army and through the government system. And it was clunky, it was miserable. and like we were hitting roadblock after roadblock, so much bureaucratic red tape. And I just remember thinking, like, man, I could probably do this so much easier, but on my own. And so I got this writing bug, ⁓ really, you know, th through a a couple of different things, but that was like a real big catalyst for me. And I started a blog on WordPress in twenty thirteen, so like thirteen years ago. So from the Green Notebook is ⁓ is a teenager right now. And I just started posting my own stuff on there. And you know, there's just leadership ideas and I was ⁓ like early 30s, so I knew better than I mean everybody else, but it was just I you know, I thought my ideas was so great, I I had to share them. And then I would have friends come up to me and they would Ask if they could post something on my website. I said sure. Then I started getting emails ⁓ from people I didn't know asking if they could post on the website. And so then I was like, okay, I need help with this. And I started asking friends to volunteer to help me edit, help me post, help me post on social media. And so over the years, I think we have just over a thousand articles. And I say we because it's been the from the Green Notebook, it's been this revolving team of volunteers. ⁓ since about seventeen. And ⁓ we have over a thousand articles and I think like f over four million views, like three million visitors to the website, something like that. So it's really cool that like this idea that I had in twenty thirteen is has really become a professional development tool for so many people in the army. And that was I I I didn't know what to I just felt that compelled to do something. And try something out. I didn't realize one, I'd still be doing this 13 years later, but two, that I would really fall in love with writing and want to chase it full time once I retired. So yeah, I I went through the ranks, I did all the jobs that you're supposed to do. ⁓ and my last job, I was a commander in Europe, retired in 24. And now I'm a writer-researcher with Ryan Holliday and the Daily Stoic. I still do from the Green Notebook and do a lot of events with A USA. speaker-1: Thank you so much for all that background and for I mean that reach you've had. I think you've got millions, how many three, four million visitors you've had? Yeah. So what do you what is it that you've like not not just touched but really engaged with that was a gap that people were needing? What what do you think it is that has caused so many people to really connect with your work? speaker-0: Yeah, so I think I was a couple of things. Like one, at at the time when I started, ⁓ you know, we had journals that told people how to clear a trench, how to fight a tank, how to shoot artillery, but there was nothing on how to lead another human being. ⁓ we we didn't have like that type of stuff and we didn't have a mech a really good mechanism, a public mechanism for people to share those lessons, you know, like it's really interesting, like over the years, ⁓ You know, that some of the stuff that people have shared, you know, there was there was a guy who was passed over ⁓ you know, several times and told he wasn't going to get promoted to the next rank. And so he talked about living and having to still continue to serve knowing that he had no more ⁓ upward mobility. There was a a woman who was investigated for toxic leadership and kind of everybody turned their back on her. And she she wrote about that. There's somebody who's wrestled with suicide. So I think. You know, one of the things I I love about art is like art comes a lot of times from ⁓ a place of pain. ⁓ it's like the manifestation of of of pain or or you know, your experience into something shareable. And so I think what it does is it allows people to process their experiences and to share those experiences with other people so you know they can either follow in their footsteps or avoid the potholes that they tripped over throughout their career. So I think there's a little bit of buy-in piece. ⁓ to it too is everybody on that pla who's contributed to that platform over the years has been able to contribute to the military profession ⁓ and help make everybody just a little bit better through the process. speaker-1: That's incredible. You look at kind of that culture you've created there too. It it's it sounds like it's one of immense supports and bravery where people can share these things and they recognize like some good that might come out of it for someone else instead of keeping that wisdom internally only, but really taking that time to to do something for someone else. ⁓ I think that's healing in and of itself. speaker-0: It is and and it's been it's been f again, it's been really fun ⁓ to see. You know, that there's people who, you know, wrote articles when they were majors and lieutenant colonels who are generals now, ⁓ you know, s sergeants who are sergeant majors now. like like people I've watched people grow contributors over the years. ⁓ so yeah, it's it's just it's been a fun project to be a part of. But two ⁓ I didn't come in with a vision of any of this. I didn't come in with a vision of starting a podcast, of re of the of cr you know, having this huge reach. I just fell in love with the work and you know, you know, the guys some two of the guys I work with, Ryan Holiday and and Billy Oppenheimer now, they have this they say it all the time, is the work is the win. ⁓ and so I I think like the success of of from the green notebook is an outgrowth of that mindset of just doing something that you're really passionate about and like just letting that be the win. And then, you know, everything else after that is, you know, ⁓ icing on the cake. speaker-1: It's fantastic. The work is the win. Thank you for sharing that. ⁓ we're talking about writing right now. I want to get to your whole framework in a moment, but I want to ask this piece about writing and the reflection that comes from that. What is your practice for writing and and why? Like if if you're a pen and paper, obviously green notebook, you're not doing it on your phone, it probably. But like why why do you do it the way you do? And and how do you? I guess probably a two part question then is ⁓ the three part. What is it? Why do you do it that way? And then how do you recommend others approach this idea of writing for reflection? speaker-0: Yeah, there's ⁓ like this is a this is a three by five moleskin notebook and I carried these around for a while and I have a a paper republic in my my backpack right now. It's ⁓ like it's pretty much like a a notebook that I carry everywhere with me. ⁓ and as I come across interesting passages, ⁓ you know, like I'm sure there was stuff that when you and I were talking that you said that I wrote down. ⁓ and it's it's it's really like a place to make connections. ⁓ you know, Leonardo da Vinci, I think, ⁓ and I'm probably gonna mess this up. I think there's like seventy-two hundred pages of his notebook that survived. And if you like look at him, ⁓ like a single page may have where he was like working on an eye. ⁓ up on the corner, you may have a list of books that he wants to read. And then like maybe down you'll have like a grocery list. ⁓ you may have some scientific stuff in there. You know, he has the the sketches in there of, you know, the the flying machine and other things. ⁓ but like what they found was that, you know, i in the in the great book by Walter Isaacson, he talks about Leonard Leonardo da Vinci being able to make connections across multiple disciplines because he had it written down in his notebook. And so I think I kind of took that to heart when I read the book back in like seventeen. And so I I've tried to keep everything in these notebooks just again to to make those connections. And there's stuff that I've written recently that were connected thoughts, you know, that that originated from, you know, five, ten years ago. There's ⁓ a series I spent a year and a half ⁓ obsessively writing about every Sunday, ⁓ on the hero's journey. And what's interesting is one of my notebooks, my green notebooks from twenty twelve. I had the steps of the hero's journey written out that I had read ⁓ from Stephen Pressfield's blog. And so, you know, here you go, flash forward ten years later, and I become I obsessively write about this for a year and a half. So I I think it's a great place to just capture stuff. I think we have between fifty and seventy-five thousand thoughts swirling around in our heads every single day. I'm on my fifth cup of coffee right now, so that could be a hundred and fifty, two hundred thousand. ⁓ But like you like they come in and then they leave and then you you think you're like, ⁓ I remember that, but you don't. And so for me, these notebooks are a way to capture that and to make connections on the paper. And so I think writing stuff down is very important. ⁓ and and there's a great book. I had it over ⁓ it's somewhere over there. But anyway, there's a whole book on the art of note taking and why it's so important and the science behind it. ⁓ so yeah, I I think it's it's very valuable and it's really helped me become ⁓ a better writer because of it. speaker-1: What is maybe we can come back to this if it's better to talk about the framework first, but what would be a practice you recommend for people to develop their own journaling habit? speaker-0: Yeah, so I think, you know, so there's there's the there's a thing called a commonplace notebook, which you know goes all the way ⁓ back to like the fifteen, sixteen hundreds where people would write down passages, again sayings. That's kind of like I have one notebook that's a commonplace notebook. ⁓ I have several now, but that's what I I write the things that I was just talking about in. Then I have a journal, and that's probably like the most important thing I I do every single day. And so I wake up, you know, roughly the same time every single morning. I have a cup of coffee, which is alpha coffee. I'm very ritualistic, Sarah. ⁓ I have a cup of coffee, it's alpha coffee. A lot of times I light a candle. ⁓ these like awesome Ranger station candles. ⁓ in my office. And then I just sit down and I I write out the day. And I found that when I first started, I was like, What do I write about? Like my mind was all over the place. And so over time I developed a format ⁓ which I captured in the leader's 90 day notebook that really helped me like quickly get in, journal, and then move on, you know, move on to the next thing. And so, you know, I I will track and write about things that I want to track and write about. So, you know, it's always the date, it's how many steps I did the previous day because it helps making sure that I'm moving and I'm active. ⁓ for example. Like I like to have a drink every now and then. Sometimes that'll become a pattern. So I write down how many drinks I have so I can make sure that I'm not doing like a two week streak or something every single day. I write down how much sleep I got the night before. So again, so I'm tracking my sleep so I can be very deliberate about it. I write a summary of the day. ⁓ and then there's a bunch of different categories. ⁓ and I'll just highlight a few of those. Like one is key decisions I made that day. ⁓ I read a book a couple of years ago. And the author talked about how, you know, we all think we're great decision makers, ⁓ but like very rarely do we evaluate the decisions that we make. And so he came up with this thing where he's like, write down a decision you make and what you think the results is going to be. And then come back to that six months later and review those decisions and you know, see if that's exactly what happened. ⁓ I don't do that, but I do write down the decisions that I made that day. ⁓ I'll write down things I'm struggling with. The other thing is that I'm really bad about is, you know, celebrating the accomplishments I do, the small wins every day. So I write down the things ⁓ I accomplish. And then I I try to write down the things that I'm grateful for. You know, gratitude journaling is a great practice to to help you have a more positive outlook on life. If you are if you get in the habit of journaling things you're thankful for, I have found and I think studies have shown. that you will actually start you will subconsciously be looking for things to be grateful for every single day. ⁓ so I do that. And it's really cool. I I can't remember, I think we talked about this. If you journal do you journal, Sarah? speaker-1: I gratitude journal. That's the only journaling I do. I feel like I have my own commonplace notebook version. It's got ⁓ Joe Byrley or two ism in it. But ⁓ I I do gratitude journal, but I don't do this practice you're talking about. I wanna start. speaker-0: It it was really cool because ⁓ for example, the other day I decided to go back and see what I was doing on this day, like three years ago. ⁓ and and it was a really interesting entry because that day, ⁓ my commander had had that conversation with me. I was I was in Europe and he was like, Are you sure that you wanna retire? Because if you do, I'm gonna give you an evaluation. ⁓ that is basically, you know, it's not going to help you. It's, you know, it's it'll leave room to help your your peers. ⁓ but like if you change your mind, you won't be able to come back from this. And I was like, ⁓ sure. And he and I wrote in there, he said, the one thing that I can say is that you've been convicted through the entire time that I've known you that this is what you want to do. Yeah. You're going to retire and you're going to become a writer. And I actually wrote in there, I have no idea how this is going to work out for me. I just know it's going to work out. So it's kind of cool seeing that like three years ago. ⁓ you know, now, especially sitting where I'm at today. speaker-1: That's great. You know, as you're talking about them, I have a calendaring habit, which is almost like a journal, but it doesn't have that reflection piece. I put I keep paper calendars I have for decades. I mean goes way back to the army. I write down what my plan is, but then I also if I do things that aren't in accordance, it's not just a way to keep on track, but it's a way to keep track of what I've been doing and up to. And I've I've had times in my life where I've looked back at them and I've been like, ⁓ wow, that is Really, really interesting. Kids stuff goes in their families. It all goes in there. So it's been, yeah, it's it's really insightful habit. I I can only imagine now. I'm very, ⁓ I'm very interested in beginning this much bigger process. So thank you. speaker-0: Do you use the same calendar? Like do you have the same calendar that you use every year? Or do you use different calendars? speaker-1: No, it's always the same size. I I buy whatever it seems to be cheap. Okay, so for example, this is my all that's a week in February. I write down a lot. So one side ends up almost like journaling and the other side ends up, but it's always the same size. I've got ⁓ twenty-five years of them up here. It helps me a ton. speaker-0: That's really cool. I think that's awesome. I speaker-1: Lost you. I don't hear you. I lost the idea. speaker-0: Okay, what about now? Alright, hold on. Let me see. Did I hit something? ⁓ no. Hold on. What about now? speaker-1: I wonder if something got bumped. You can hear me clearly. You can hear me, yes. I cannot hear. ⁓ yeah, good. Okay. So all right, we'll just back up there and we'll edit all that out. ⁓ so we were talking about we'll just we'll we'll let them my folks do their magic. Okay, so I've been using this I've for something this size for for twenty some years and I keep them all. speaker-0: I hear you clearly. Yes. What about now? That is so cool. And I was ⁓ did like, you know, just because of our outlooks, you know, like the like literally Microsoft Outlook in the military, that's what I was using. And my friend Lindsay got me on Clever Fox calendars. Okay. ⁓ w which which are really inter like it's the same thing. ⁓ like this is this was mine for the month of April. Like but but I like it because I can see what I'm doing. ⁓ I can go back and be like, okay, maybe I filled up my calendar a little bit too much. Yeah. And the cool thing about this particular calendar is at the end of each month it has a monthly review. ⁓ so like what were the biggest wins? What were my biggest lessons learned? Where was life where was I lacking in life? ⁓ and so I just think it's a great tool, like writing that stuff down instead of just keeping it on our digital calendars. Again, it's like a record of your life that you can ⁓ kind of go back and and look look and see things and just You know, again, take kind of take stock of your life. speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's really powerful. And and reality is we all have to keep digital calendars too. We coordinate, schedule, and find space to set up meetings or podcasts with other people, right? Like so it's it might feel like a little bit duplicative, but it is I think it's very, very different for the the paper calendar. And I and I make sure the things that end up in the digital calendar also go in the paper calendar for what you're talking about is is having a visual sense of how full my life has been and maybe connect that to. my energy levels, but it's also a a nice place for some reflection too, which is great. So clever, clever facts calendar you recommend? speaker-0: Huge, yeah, huge fans of those. speaker-1: That's great. Okay, so I've I've I've kind of alluded to it a little bit. So this your framework, read, write, reflect. We've been talking a bit about writing and reflection, I think, but you're a prolific reader and part of your gift to the world is some of the summaries of what you're reading. Can you tell us some about your reading and how you share those insights with others? speaker-0: Yeah, I'll go back to ⁓ you know, like it was I remember it was like twenty twenty, I think. ⁓ and I had met ⁓ the person who was running the blog while I was in Afghanistan was Megan Yantos. and this was I was in Afghanistan twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, and her and I met for coffee and we were just kind of like figuring out like what is like my thing, and I was like, I don't know. And she was the one who was like Everything you write about is reading, writing, and reflection. So why don't we just go with read, write, reflect? And I was like, that's genius. ⁓ but yeah, I I was not I I was like a reader as a kid. I think I read like Stephen King and like James Patterson in middle school, high school. ⁓ but I wasn't like ⁓ I wasn't somebody that read for growth. I didn't that didn't come till much later on. ⁓ and then That same assignment where we're working on this self-study program, ⁓ every single Monday, McMaster would come in and he would ask me, you know, hey, have you read this book? Have you read that book? ⁓ my god, this book is great. So I would go home every Monday and fill up my Amazon cart and order these books. Yeah. And I started just voraciously reading. I was like, I I this is something like I I'm behind. Like I was literally trying to catch up with a person who was two decades older than me. ⁓ and and it was it was it was like a PhD in education that I was getting in this this job. And so after that I just I had this habit and I was like I I have to read and my curiosity is is literally insatiable. ⁓ and so I my like I filled up, you know, I have books behind me, I have books behind the camera, I have books off to the side. And so ⁓ that's part of my morning ritual. So I I journal, I put my journal away, and then I have what I call my circle of reading. And there's ⁓ a group of books that I read every single morning. ⁓ they're like daily reflections. So, like, for example, ⁓ The Daily Laws by Robert Green, The Daily Pressfield by Stephen Pressfield, The Daily Stoic by Ryan Holliday. and I will read ⁓ like a page like the whatever the intention or reflection for each of those days are. And then I have another stack of books right next to me, and I'll read until I get ⁓ and so like my mind starts wondering and then just put that book down and go to the next book and and start reading. So, you know, before this I was reading a couple books a year, maybe five, maybe six. ⁓ now this this habit that I that I do, this rotation of books, has led me to read between like forty and fifty every single year. And and so it's it's been a great just source of development, of learning. And yeah, just the curiosity thing. I'll give you an example. So I read Great Gatsby for the first time a couple of months ago. And I was like, okay, like this was why didn't I read this when my teachers assigned it to me back in the day? This was actually a really good book. And then that led me to a book called Careless People, which was about the writing of the Great Gatsby. kind of the murders and stuff like that that was happening behind the scenes. Then I jump over and I read Traversal by Maria Popova. ⁓ and she's like one of my favorite writers of all time. She just has a very poetic cadence to her writing and style. And so I read her book and part of her book is about ⁓ Mary Shelley and Percy Shelley. And so then I'm like, okay, I need to read Frankenstein now. And so like I I will read a book and then it will lead me to you know all these other books. So now I'm reading the annotated Frankenstein. ⁓ yeah. And then Yeah, we start with Red Gatsby. And what's really cool about it too, Sarah, is that you know, if I talk to people because I read, ⁓ people are constantly recommending books. ⁓ so like there's a book I'm reading right now called The Science of Storytelling. And speaker-1: Starting with the Gats great Gatsby. speaker-0: I have no idea who recommended it. I just know it was on my Amazon wish list 'cause you that's usually what happens. I'll be in a conversation, somebody will make a book recommendation, I'll immediately add it and then, you know, come back to it later. So I I just it's been a it's been a hobby and now it's literally my job and it's been amazing. speaker-1: So I love this. So you've got this morning ritual, right? You journal, you read your circle of books, you will do one until you your mind starts wandering. You'll move to the next. Like what is this? How long does this take in a minute? And where I'm getting going with this is for those myself included who are like, ⁓ my mornings are so busy. I don't have time for this. Like you fit this in and it's it's just benefited so much. But you've benefited and you've been able to benefit others with this kind of wisdom and and ⁓ all that. So like you've made it work and it's paid off probably way more exponentially than than what you've you've, you know, thought at the beginning. So how do you make it work? And and what does that really look like in practice? speaker-0: Yeah, and I'll back up a little bit. So, you know, for fifteen years in the army, I would wake up every single morning, I would like groggily roll out of bed, I would shave, brush my teeth, get some coffee, throw on my f ⁓ my physical fitness uniform, and then like roll out like literally like run out the door. ⁓ and then all you know, when when I'd get to the office, it was like boom, you know, check emails. It was like the day began. And just I don't know, like it I always felt unsettled, you know, just into the day or just didn't feel like I was I was anchored. And so one day I think I just got up early and started reading. ⁓ actually I know what it was. I was in Afghanistan and I ⁓ they moved me and two other people into this like small closet and and like I liked quiet. And so I would get there about 30, 40 minutes before everybody else did and just read like my own stuff before reading the emails of the day. And I was like, that is so peaceful. And so when I came home, I started doing that ⁓ every morning. And I found that like no matter how stressful my job was, ⁓ you know, no matter what was going on, if I could get just 15 minutes and when I was in command. That's all I could get. And I was actually waking up earlier ⁓ just to squeeze 15 minutes in because I needed that time to anchor myself before starting the day. So I think like as little as like 15, 20 minutes. And that's 10, 15 minutes of journaling and maybe five, 10 minutes of reading. ⁓ you know, depending on how long it takes you. And then and then you're out. ⁓ and so th there's another ⁓ thing that that I learned about. Two is I I had this practice and then I got deployed to Poland when Putin invaded Ukraine and all of a sudden like my time wasn't my own. And so like if I was on a black hawk flying somewhere or in a vehicle going to the border or something like that, I would have like 10, 15 minutes of quiet time. And so there's this concept called time confetti, and it's the litters little slivers of time that we have throughout our day. ⁓ that typically we'll just jump on our cell phones and scroll on Instagram or LinkedIn. or X or Facebook and will literally waste that time doing nothing. ⁓ and so in those rides, that's where I would get squeezed my reading in. ⁓ and I think like I was there for like two months or something and finished like four or five books, you know, like I I was still doing the thing that I I had done. So now that I'm not I don't have a 70 hour work week. It's crazy, Sarah. Like I wake up earlier than I did when I was in the military now, so I can get like two hours of quiet time before the house starts waking up. And I like I love it. speaker-1: Yeah. Wow. Thank you for showing all that. ⁓ and the tip of time confetti. I have to laugh because at West Point it was like scraps of time. And then you know, they taught us how to make use of all of those things. Now, of course, I overdid that, which is going to lead into the sustainability thing that's coming next. But it's really ⁓ I mean it's really important, I think, for all of us to recognize like. There is time there during the days. You might not have a big chunk. Maybe you can consolidate, make a chunk if that's how your brain works. But if your life doesn't work that way, you still have some time that you can make do something to better yourself in this in these scraps of time. Or t a confetti pieces of I love that. These confetti pieces of time. Yeah. So okay. So how you know you you you've Performed at the highest levels and you continue to do so. So thanks for laying all that out for us now that you find a couple hours some mornings or every morning to be able to do this. ⁓ you're still performing at the highest levels in a different way. How have you sustained your health, your well being, your relationships, your just kind of your your sense of purpose, all of it? How have you how have you been able to do that over time? I I don't imagine it's ⁓ been easy and I suspect there like most of us, right? You've probably gotten off track in some areas over time and found a way back. but what what has that looked like for you and then what does it look like for you now? speaker-0: Yeah, I'll like I'll start with physical. So, you know, to that even that's like been interesting. Like I my knees were hurting and I was like, ⁓ I can't run anymore. And I used to love running, you know, and I was like, I can't run anymore. So just I was walking everywhere. ⁓ like I I I would get up and that's the other thing is like once I finished all those things, I would go on like a anywhere from a twenty to forty minute walk in the mornings. now that I've retired. ⁓ and I don't have mandatory physical ⁓ training every single day. ⁓ and so so started walking, I was like, I can't do this anymore. And a friend got me like, you know, shared, I think it was like two months free of the Peloton app with me. And I started doing yoga on it. And all of a sudden and then they like pushed me to run and I was like, ⁓ my gosh, like I'm running and I don't have the pain anymore. ⁓ and then I I ended up purchasing a bike about two months ago and I love that. So it's like my what I do for fitness is changed a lot from what I used to do. ⁓ but it's still doing something and it's still moving. And and I would argue that like, you know, my last two years, you know, like I my body was breaking down. I wasn't in the best shape ⁓ because the cortisol levels were high. Like my body was just You know, it was just in a bad place. And now I'm I'm probably healthier now than I was ⁓ at the very end of my military career. Just again, finding different ways to move. The other thing, and you know, my ⁓ the person I co-authored, my green notebook with Cassie Crosby, has been really influential with me on is, you know, determining your values and then constantly reassessing those. And, you know. I need a lot of people experience this. Like when you're in careers that are very ⁓ there's a lot of upward mobility, there's a lot of moves where you're moving cities constantly. ⁓ relationships become very hard to maintain. As a matter of fact, my relationships in the military for years were just based on where I was stationed. So, you know, I would have really good friends for a year, two years, and I would move and I would never talk to them again. ⁓ you know, just And I realized doing a values exercise towards the end of my career, I realized that ⁓ my gosh, like relationships are very important to me. ⁓ and it's something that I want to pour into. I just haven't. I haven't, you know, my my values have changed. It's no longer ⁓ I value ⁓ ambition or or mobility. It's like I value relationship. And so now I do prioritize those things. So speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: You know, if I have a famil ⁓ cousin who's having a birthday and invites me to fly across country for the weekend to go spend it, like I will do that now. Tomorrow I'm getting on the road. I'm going to one of the guys I commanded with, I'm going to his promotion ceremony up in Washington, DC. The next day I'm going to a retirement ceremony for somebody else. And then the next day I'm going to a change of command. ⁓ and so I I think that like now in this stage where I do have a lot more freedom, whereas I would have never done this before, like I'm really prioritizing the relationships in my life and and making sure that that I'm ⁓ investing in those. And then same thing, you know, with family, like I'm around my kids a lot more now. So like am I making the most of that? ⁓ are we, you know, being deliberate with our vacations? Are we you know, taking vacations. ⁓ so yeah, I'm I'm a lot more deliberate I think than when I was ⁓ younger and recognizing that in order to maintain the things that I value, I have to invest time in the things that I value. speaker-1: Thank you. ⁓ right. So you've you've kind of I feel like you've you've earned that. So so first of all, thank you for your decades of service. I ⁓ I sincerely appreciate it because well we all ⁓ we all need to appreciate what it it it takes for someone to have a career of service like you've had. and and and so I feel like you've earned this opportunity now. And and I love that you use the word freedom, talking about freedom with your schedule, freedom to to be there for what is ha has risen up as being of maybe higher value than than you had time for before. But now these relationships, recognizing that's of of ⁓ much higher value and now you've got the freedom to be able to to invest in those and and to be with people. I I think that's pretty, pretty amazing. So thank you for sharing all that. And and also your adjustment over time, right? With the the fitness side, I I often think like the the we notice physical changes as we age of and you know, from cumulative impact or or what else or life in general, we notice those more than we do or we notice those before we notice other changes in ourselves. ⁓ It's a really good signal to listen to yourself. And I love that you you do yoga now. I'm a yoga instructor. I discovered yoga probably when I was around this thing, maybe a couple of years y younger than you are now, but I discovered yoga for all the same reasons. I was wearing myself out and and I just kind of stumbled upon it and it helped bring back some other things I enjoy. So so it's an important piece of sustainability is this ability to recognize when something isn't working for us anymore and we don't have to necessarily throw it away, but make some adjustments. ⁓ but all the while going back to reassessing values, as ⁓ your friend has said, determining and reassessing values and and making sure what you're doing on a regular basis stays aligned with those. speaker-0: Yeah, it's it's so important. And there's ⁓ Brooke Taylor, she had a book come out last month called The Success Wound, and I love this. she talks about how a lot of our ambition and a lot of our drive doesn't come from a place of warrant, it comes from like some sort of wound, something we're running away from, not running towards. And ⁓ you know, she also talks about the importance of sitting down, taking the time to figure out what it is you value and then align your actions to that. And ⁓ I I'm pretty sure it's her term, but she calls it aligned ambition. ⁓ and and I love that. So I'm still ambitious. It's just now my ambition's a lot more aligned to the things I value. And and one more thing on that, sir, I think it's worth talking about. And I'm sure you saw it in your former careers too, is that I think because of the the jobs that that you and I have done, ⁓ there's a lot of values that get projected onto you, ⁓ identities that that you assume. And ⁓ a lot of the things that you do and you say you value come with like an asterisk like ought to and should. And Like I I ought to do this thing, so I'm gonna do it, or I really should do this thing, so I'm gonna do it, or we feel guilty when we don't do these things. And that's those are two words that I really tried to do away with with my vocabulary now is just, you know, like this is what I want to do. ⁓ you know, instead of this is what I should do. I don't know if you've fought kind of found the same thing as as you've retired and moved on to your third career now. speaker-1: Right. Yeah, ⁓ yeah, certainly. There's ⁓ and I'm laughing because I am quite certain I said I should do this morning journey journaling ritual you too. Probably said that I should have rephrased that 'cause I I hear you loud and clear. I want to, I want to try. I I I I believe that. I believe in it and ⁓ I want to. But yes, the the shoulds are o's that is I I think In some ways, how we were raised. It's a uniform you wear and it's part of a collective, it's part of a culture, and it's how big organizations accomplish big missions. ⁓ so when you do have that, as you said before, freedom to to choose what is most important to you and and align with those values, it's really ⁓ it's a it's a it's a gift and and it sounds like one that has not gone unappreciated for you. You you really take, you know, you invest in that. speaker-0: No yeah. One hundred percent no. speaker-1: Love it. Love it. Okay. ⁓ well, I I was just one kind of big final question for you is you've interviewed some top, top people in all sorts of professions. I mean, from military to athletes to authors to musicians. Like you you get a talk to some really remarkable people who have have ⁓ who have invested in a specific craft or skill and and and and many of them are leaders, ⁓ would love to hear kind of what is what's something that right now is coming up in in some of your different conversations with people? Like what's on their mind? You know, when you is it is it largely like values like we were talking about? Is it something else? It it's what's what's one of the leadership lessons or leadership questions you're hearing a lot about right now? speaker-0: ⁓ I guess it's more of a lesson that I've really been thinking about a lot. And ⁓ it came from a recent interview I did with Sam Yo. ⁓ he's a he's a like probably one of the most recognizable Peloton instructors. And when Sam was in his early 20s, he was a rising star on West End, which for those not familiar with that, it's ⁓ London's version of Broadway. And he was just wasn't feeling fulfilled. And so he decides that he's going to join a Buddhist monastery in Thailand. So at twenty-four leaves, becomes a monk, and he's lives in this monastery for almost a year. And he tells his story of how ⁓ you know, like the crematorium, like he was responsible for sweeping that and cleaning it. And he was like, Nobody goes in here, nobody cares. And and then one day the head monk ⁓ basically gives this lecture and is Hey, like everything you do, It does you know, you're you can't control the outcome. All you can control is your effort. So you need to apply the right effort to these things. And and so that lesson really stuck with Sam. And so now like he's using a toothbrush to clean the teeth of the dra the Naga dragons and all that stuff. So he's so he's applying right effort to whatever he does. So flash forward, Sam leaves the monastery, he's an instructor at a spin class on a Friday morning at 6 a.m. And only four people. Four or five people show up and Sam is in there, brings the right effort, and he's treating that class like there are 60 people. Every bike is filled. What he didn't know is one of those four or five people was a producer from Peloton and ended up seeing Sam, seeing the energy he brought, and came to him afterwards and said, Hey, you taught that class like it was a full class, and we would like you to come audition to be a Peloton instructor. ⁓ and that completely changed the trajectory of Sam's life. So now, like I I think about that a lot now. Like where, ⁓ you know, like if those days where I don't feel like ⁓ you know, bringing my best game or whatever, you know, or I'm like, ⁓ like no one's gonna read this piece that I'm writing this rook week. ⁓ I think about that idea of right effort, like, you know. ⁓ am I showing up, putting my best foot forward? Am I doing the preparation? Am I putting in the work? ⁓ because like that's what this particular moment demands of me. So that's that's something that's I wrote about it last week. ⁓ because it was funny, like, even as I I didn't even want to write that post, ⁓ and I was like, you know, I'll just kind of cut corners on it. And then I was like, wait, that is so ⁓ you know like ironic. Yeah. speaker-1: Not you to begin with. speaker-0: ⁓ and so anyway, so like I I ended up in and it actually like people have reached out since then and said like that was the thing they needed to read. And so ⁓ yeah, I I think that that's something that's like kinda sticking with me right now is like am I bringing the right effort to the thing that I'm doing? speaker-1: So thank you. You've s so you've I suspect you've had to distill down the things you bring effort to because to bring that level of intentionality and effort to this massive universe isn't really possible to do everything well for the long term, right? Going back to sustainability. So you've had to distill things down over time to make sure the things you're committed to are the things that are you're able to bring that right effort to. speaker-0: That's and and that's the challenge right now, Sarah, is I think that like right now at least, like everything looks awesome. and so I will pr I'm more apt to say yes to things okay ⁓ that I don't necessarily have the time for and end up like almost like breaking myself to do that right effort. So that is definitely one thing right now that I am trying to work on is to continue, like you said, to f whittle things down so much so that I'm only applying right effort to the right things. And you know, sometimes like everything feels right. ⁓ and a lot and that's where reflection comes into play is like looking at it and go, okay, what did I really need to do that thing that almost broke my back for today? ⁓ and should I, you know, be able to say no to it in the future. So That is something I'm currently working on ⁓ just through journaling and through like, you know, being able to look at my calendar and see how quickly it's filling up. speaker-1: Yeah. They I've heard it. ⁓ well thank you for for honestly sharing the answer. I've I've heard it and s some people talk about like a reverse bucket list. The things once you hit a certain age you can begin to let go of. ⁓ but you're in a fun stage, right? You're retired two not even two years, barely a year and a half, or not even two years, and you're retired and you've got you've got so much goodness. happening for you and through you. ⁓ it's it's easy to say yes to to a lot. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's aga ⁓ like I'm learning. I'm learning. So speaker-1: We all are. speaker-0: Next year would be very different. So we'll see. speaker-1: May I may I, you know, share what works for me. ⁓ I well, we're on the future walk podcast. I I make my daily practice is like I'll do a morning walk, morning future walk just for that day. Like how am I gonna be today? What's most important? What's my top three? But then regularly I do these longer walks. And sometimes they're with my husband or a friend, really speaker-0: Yes, please, please. speaker-1: intentionally, not just chit-chatty, right? Like yesterday my husband and I went on a walk at lunch just because we both wanted to get out of the house and we chit chatted. It that was that was a nice walk. That was not a future walk. Like really thinking forward to how I want to be, what's most important, sometimes, you know, what what can I let go of? And and that's a harder thing. where I get clarity is when I identify what is most important. If something hasn't kind of hit that top list, at least for the next say 90 days for me, then I know that's something that I can I can make a backseat, put on the a back burner a little bit. Maybe it'll be more important down the road, but for now, so I can really invest myself into those things. I get that when I intentionally walk and doing the the future walk things. So that's that's ⁓ a helpful, a helpful thing for me to do. speaker-0: How long how long are those like the you know, 'cause you again like you're talking daily, you're talking like speaker-1: Daily is like a 10 minute, ⁓ 10 to 15 minutes. Your brain is still very ⁓ tactical, just like in the moment, what's happening, executive functions are all online. It's not until twenty plus minutes for me, just the way my brain works. Some people probably as soon as fifteen minutes, but twenty to thirty minutes that all that executive control starts quieting a little and more of that default mode network starts rising up and and and my mind starts to wander a little bit in a good way. Like I seed something. So I seed, for example, we're gonna be doing a starting a series of future walks, community future walks with a colleague. We're gonna start doing them here in Boise. And and so the other day I did one of these longer walks. It was probably 30, 40 minutes. And I I I planted that seed before I started. My mind finally got there at about that 15, 20 minute plus mark. And I started to think through, okay, what message do I really want to share when I'm out there with with these folks? And then you come back and write it down. So it's got all those different components. It doesn't have the reading component, but the the writing and the reflection. So I'm thinking about it as I'm walking and I come back and I capture, capture that. So that's probably 30 to 40 minutes. And then for like long-term planning, 33 to five years, like 50 minutes, an hour, that's a really good one to do with someone who's willing and able to either hold space for you, like a mentor or a coach or something like that, or someone who's a part of that future with you, like a spouse. It's a that's a great one. Like, how do we want our lives to be in five years? What's what's most important? What do we think is going to be most important to us? The again, the first 10, 15 minutes of any of these is just your your brain's not ready for it yet. So you gotta just enjoy that time, chit-chat, do whatever. But once if you're gonna go into some longer term thinking or visioning, ⁓ just work through that time and then your your brain, your conversation will will start to get there. speaker-0: Do you I'm curious, are you listening to music or anything when you're doing it? You're just speaker-1: I recommend not even taking a phone. I I recommend leaving the phone behind or putting it on do not disturb. I I do go on walks where I'll listen podcasts or music or whatever, right? And so my my but my brain is absorbing in those. And there's it's doing a little thinking, but these are, yeah, I don't I don't I I like to listen to nature. speaker-0: Okay, it's that's smart. That's good to know. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so there you go. You can speaker-0: I walk a lot. ⁓ I've always got my AirPods in. ⁓ but maybe I should maybe, yeah. I should start at least one or two, just take them out and just listen to speaker-1: Give it a try. Just plant a question like, how do I want what do I want things to be like in September? You know, pick some, you know, the whatever, three months from now, ⁓ from when we're recording this. And and and ⁓ how how do I want things to be? And then just go and walk. And but your brain will start eventually come back to that and and just let the thoughts go. let the thoughts go and it'll start to make some sense. I even find myself sometimes talking out loud, which is Really interesting, like quietly out loud, but like out loud to myself. Yeah. ⁓ as I'm as it's how my brain works and processes stuff. So then I'll be thinking through things and come back and write it down. In your commonplace notebook. All right, Joe. Thank you so much for joining. ⁓ as we finish up, is there anything else you would one last thing you would love to share with people? And and please do share how people can find you and your work. speaker-0: Yeah, it sounds awesome. Yes. Yeah, I I just again like I think like I have my life before reading and writing on reflection and I have after. And I'm a lot more deliberate in in how I live and I still mess up, I still make major mistakes, I still face ⁓ you know, a lot of struggles, but I feel like right now like I I'm able to at least get to the other side of them a lot quicker ⁓ than I did when I wasn't doing these things. But ⁓ yeah, our websites at from the green notebook.com. ⁓ I'm on LinkedIn. That's where I I spend a lot of my time. On the website, ⁓ we have where you can sign up for the monthly reading list email, the thing that we were talking about, where I recommend three to five books a month, things that I'm reading with short little summaries. Not even summaries, just like, hey, these are something I got out of this. This is why I think you should read it. ⁓ and then the podcast, which is available anywhere you listen to podcast. I think ⁓ we're about to release episode one hundred eighty one. And and then I have the Sunday email, which I usually repost on LinkedIn as well. And that's this like it's a really great writing exercise that I do every single week. ⁓ and it's usually something that I'm pondering or or wrestling with that week and it's just a very short ⁓ maybe five, six hundred word essay on something. So speaking of, I have to figure out what I'm gonna write about this week. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. And feature walk. There you go. I have a feeling you've got a lot of source material. Somewhere around you. Well, thank you again, Joe, so much for for what you do, for being here with us today and sharing all of this. And to listeners, ⁓ please, please do as Joe suggested, look into all of that. speaker-0: Somewhere, somewhere around here, yes. speaker-1: subscribe, read, listen. He ⁓ he shares so freely what he's ⁓ what he's learning and and about his his growth and things that I know benefit benefit all of us. So ⁓ I ⁓ again Joe I I can't tell you how much I appreciate you being on here today and and ⁓ thank you. And for everyone who's listening ⁓ please do subscribe or follow rather this podcast so you can Make sure you catch our future episodes. And I would love to hear from you, especially a comment about maybe what most resonated with you from our conversation with Joe today. I've got a bunch of notes here on my paper that I will be transferring to a notebook. probably need to make a category about all the gems that I've gotten from him since I met him last summer. ⁓ but I I I ⁓ encourage you to do the same and share with others because as he pointed out, that's how we learn. That's how we learn from sharing with one another, and ⁓ that's how we support each other. So, so thank you all again. And this week, ⁓ try one of these practices that he's shared for us. Maybe a little bit about the morning ritual, maybe some of the journaling, maybe some of the reading strategy, and then take that time to reflect. And as you do that, you will begin to see what becomes clear. So thanks for joining us on the Future Walk Podcast. And this week again, take that time. Read, write, reflect, see the wisdom that emerges. And until next time, enjoy your walk.