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Discovering Bitcoin with Ian · Discovering Bitcoin

• 0:01
  Yeah, I see the world through an entirely different lens.
• 0:06
  It doesn't just give you confidence, but it gives you
• 0:08
  hope. Take like we're squandering our
• 0:12
  energy, our life force. So Bitcoin is changing that.
• 0:16
  For me. It's like it's healing energy.
• 0:20
  It gives you a kind of of a stand feeling, right?
• 0:27
  Grab a. Holder deep and deep and deep.
• 0:29
  In the immortal words of the Doors, the time to hesitate us
• 0:34
  through discovery.
• 1:01
  And what's going on, man? What's up brother, How are you?
• 1:05
  Yeah, I'm good. Living the dream, as they say,
• 1:08
  right? We're recording a Bitcoin
• 1:10
  podcast, man. It doesn't get more dreamier
• 1:12
  than that, I can tell you. Exactly, exactly.
• 1:15
  But sometimes I do feel like I'm living in a nightmare out in the
• 1:18
  field world. Yeah, well, you're in.
• 1:22
  I mean, I'm not going to dock your location.
• 1:23
  Your accent says that you're somewhere in and around the UK.
• 1:28
  I don't know what you mean mate and if.
• 1:30
  You were to believe what you see and hear and read on Twitter.
• 1:35
  You'd think that that place is going to the dogs.
• 1:37
  But I don't know, man. I don't believe the hype.
• 1:41
  Huh. Man, yeah, it's it's you know
• 1:45
  what? Right.
• 1:46
  I think that one of the biggest problems in society today, you
• 1:50
  know, you if you ask somebody what is the most imminent thing
• 1:55
  threatened society today, and you get people saying all sorts
• 1:59
  of stuff, war, AI, you're all that sort.
• 2:02
  And it's all true. But I think the biggest risk in
• 2:06
  society now is the lack of truth, right?
• 2:12
  No one knows what the truth is anymore.
• 2:14
  And I think that's, and you hear things in the media, right,
• 2:17
  about what's going on here, what's going on there.
• 2:20
  And you know, they're just pumping out these Co opted sort
• 2:23
  of, you know, syopy type narratives all the time.
• 2:26
  And people don't know what is right, what is wrong.
• 2:29
  And they're polarized, always arguing amongst each other.
• 2:33
  And I think it's all a big distraction.
• 2:36
  But the truth of it all, I think ultimately is obviously it's all
• 2:39
  Fiat money incentives, right? And it's a continual degrading
• 2:45
  of money and society a whole right.
• 2:49
  And it just, it leaks out into all aspects of life.
• 2:53
  And of course, like, you know, the longer fear goes on, the
• 2:56
  more chaos there is. And I think we're in a era of
• 3:03
  our lives and in society where it's really come in sort of
• 3:08
  omnipresent everywhere. And it is shit here, of course,
• 3:12
  Like the cost of living is actually horrendous.
• 3:15
  People are struggling, house prices are ridiculously,
• 3:19
  stupidly priced because obviously real estate is being
• 3:23
  used as an asset store of value. And yeah, it's just driving
• 3:27
  people crazy, man. You don't want to get me started
• 3:30
  on this rant really, but. It's too early.
• 3:33
  Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, I mean, the thing about
• 3:39
  all of that is people feel it. Yeah, they can sense it.
• 3:46
  It's like an energy in the atmosphere that yeah, it just
• 3:50
  pervades everything. But unless, you know, you don't
• 3:56
  know, like you can't put your finger on it.
• 3:58
  You you can't. Yeah, name it, you know?
• 4:03
  Yeah. Exactly.
• 4:04
  And that's, that's what I'm saying about the whole truth
• 4:06
  thing is like, and people like cling on to something that they
• 4:10
  think it is. Yeah.
• 4:12
  They're hacking a branch is trying to trying to name this
• 4:15
  thing, trying to grasp it, trying to see it like you know,
• 4:20
  see it and hold it and touch it and be like right, you're the
• 4:23
  culprit. Fuck you and go after him and
• 4:27
  everyone scattered in 1000 different directions and it's.
• 4:31
  Yeah, and people cling on to it like no matter what your, no
• 4:35
  matter what counter now, if you, you offer, people cling to
• 4:41
  their, their, you know, story or their what they think is the
• 4:46
  problem. Yep.
• 4:48
  And there's no convincing them otherwise.
• 4:49
  And it just becomes this echo chamber within an echo chamber.
• 4:53
  Everyone's sticking to their truth for whatever it is.
• 4:56
  It's just a massive circle jerk and.
• 4:59
  It is. It is, yeah.
• 5:00
  I mean, the, the, the interesting thing I think for me
• 5:02
  is that this isn't like this is a very old tale.
• 5:07
  You know, there's a God, I can't remember what it's in.
• 5:12
  I could be, don't know. It's Jiminy Cricket from, you
• 5:16
  know, like Walt Disney and he's going through.
• 5:20
  Yeah. I think it was the consciousness
• 5:23
  in Pinocchio maybe, but I think he, he, he appeared in something
• 5:27
  else. Anyway, I've got this clip and I
• 5:30
  think I clipped it and, like, saved it to one of my, one of
• 5:33
  my, you know, folders or whatever.
• 5:35
  But it was him going through the paper and he was talking to like
• 5:39
  a fish in a fishbowl, I think. And it was basically like the
• 5:43
  the long and short of it was, you know, like shit's shit
• 5:47
  happens. Shit's always happened.
• 5:49
  Like, none of this is new. And you can see all the
• 5:51
  headlines in the newspaper are like, you know, such and such
• 5:55
  has happened. World may end soon or something
• 5:57
  like that. And they were kind of was all
• 5:58
  tied in. And this was like, you know,
• 6:01
  illustrated in the 40s or 50s, you know, and, and this thing
• 6:06
  just is a tale as old as time. And I used to work in the
• 6:10
  industry, man. And I saw it first hand.
• 6:13
  You know, I've told this story a million times on the pod, you
• 6:17
  know, but I worked at the BBC and, you know, the, the London
• 6:23
  Occupy London protests were going on for a full month before
• 6:29
  we were allowed to cover it, you know, and I'd bring it up in the
• 6:32
  in the, in the production meetings each morning.
• 6:34
  Like, you know, there's people camping in the City of London.
• 6:37
  We should probably go down, have a yak to them.
• 6:40
  You know, this thing will blow over this thing.
• 6:42
  And it was just constant, you know, kick in the can.
• 6:44
  And then by the time they got around to, you know, sending
• 6:47
  some crews down and and, and covering the story, you know,
• 6:51
  they painted them all as whinges, whiners, you know,
• 6:55
  hippies, vagrants, the whole thing.
• 6:57
  I. Was just like, yeah.
• 6:59
  What? Yeah, that's true.
• 7:03
  It's like they're big, big brainwashing corporation.
• 7:07
  But I mean, I've always said, look good, good news isn't good
• 7:13
  news. And what I mean by that is it
• 7:14
  doesn't sell papers, right? People like drama and
• 7:19
  controversy. We used to have a like a motto.
• 7:25
  I don't know. It's not anything that was
• 7:27
  unique to The Newsroom I worked in.
• 7:28
  But if it bleeds, it leads. That's it.
• 7:33
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 7:34
  If it bleeds, it leads. And, you know, we would put wild
• 7:37
  weather up and people losing their homes and all of this
• 7:40
  devastation. I can remember I worked a 12
• 7:42
  hour day once when the when the tsunami hit just outside of
• 7:47
  Fukushima and then, you know, wiped out the nuclear power
• 7:52
  thing. And it was a hectic day and I
• 7:54
  was having quite literally the time of my life.
• 7:57
  Like adrenaline was pumping. I couldn't believe I was in the
• 8:00
  middle of this. And then I remember a couple of
• 8:02
  days later just thinking, whoa, for me to have a good day at
• 8:07
  work, like an exciting day, like a day that was like, fuck, man,
• 8:10
  everything was happening today, this was amazing.
• 8:13
  Couldn't catch my breath, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 8:14
  For me to feel that exhilaration, because that's
• 8:18
  what it was meant that a whole bunch of people had to have a
• 8:23
  super shitty day on the other end of that.
• 8:25
  And I was like, fuck that, you know, the industry's cooked,
• 8:32
  man. And and as you say, like, trying
• 8:35
  to grasp that little kernel of truth is so difficult for a
• 8:44
  person not willing to do the work that's required and be
• 8:54
  humble about it, you know? Yeah, and it's you know what, I
• 8:59
  think you're absolutely right, brother, totally.
• 9:05
  I think that in society, and again, I think it's all down to
• 9:10
  Fiat incentives, time, preference.
• 9:12
  And you know, what we've been talking about, about what is
• 9:14
  truth and journalism and all these narratives is that people
• 9:19
  are incapable now of or don't have the time or capacity or
• 9:24
  brain power or whatever you want to call it or point to, to sit
• 9:29
  with an uncomfortable truth or to admit if they might not have
• 9:38
  the right opinion or reassess, you know, their their narrative
• 9:45
  because the gateways communities that you know, they associate
• 9:50
  with and identify with. And the algorithms don't help on
• 9:53
  social media as well because they just tend to feed you what
• 9:55
  you want to hear as well. So you are kind of you are kind
• 9:58
  of trapped in this matrix or echo chamber and it's hard to
• 10:01
  escape from. And it does really take a lot
• 10:05
  for you to sit with yourself and realise actually, I might have
• 10:12
  it wrong and you're up against your ego, you're up against
• 10:16
  being outed or ostracized from whatever clique you're in, all
• 10:21
  right. And I think a lot of Bitcoiners
• 10:23
  might identify with what I'm saying because once you discover
• 10:27
  and understand Bitcoin, you're confronted with truth or
• 10:33
  reality, right? And you've, I'll bother me
• 10:35
  personally, you're confronted with, with how you see the
• 10:39
  world. And once you discover it,
• 10:42
  everything that comes up in your life is, is a question mark.
• 10:45
  Hence what I'm questioning Bitcoin, I'm not questioning
• 10:49
  Bitcoin per SE. I'm questioning reality and,
• 10:53
  and, and life, right. And, and in doing so, I'm, I'm
• 10:56
  sort of going deeper down that rabbit hole.
• 10:58
  And it's, it's, it's a difficult realm to be in, but I'm grateful
• 11:04
  for it. It's made me a better person
• 11:07
  overall. You know, I see the world vastly
• 11:11
  different from what I used to see it before I discovered
• 11:14
  Bitcoin. Well, let me ask the question,
• 11:18
  how did you discover Bitcoin? I love that question, right?
• 11:25
  And obviously I've got a podcast, Rabbit Hole Stories.
• 11:29
  I want to show that just quickly before you go on Yeah, Rabbit
• 11:34
  Hole Stories podcast. This is one of the most meta
• 11:37
  podcasts I'll ever record. I've had podcasters on the
• 11:41
  podcast before and we've gotten better, but I don't think I've
• 11:45
  ever had another podcast who deals in the same realm as this
• 11:49
  one. And I love that we are certainly
• 11:52
  contributing at least twice the amount of hours to the 40 hour
• 11:57
  HPW. So, you know, shout out to the
• 12:01
  bugle boys. We, you know, we're we're sort
• 12:04
  of doing double time right now. This is cool.
• 12:08
  Yeah, this is like meta, isn't it?
• 12:10
  It's like a rabbit hole within a rabbit hole.
• 12:15
  Yeah, When I asked people that story last day, I watched an
• 12:18
  origin story with Bitcoin and it's fascinating where people
• 12:21
  start and finish and how they discovered it.
• 12:23
  Anyway, I won't delay any favour.
• 12:24
  Let's get into this. This is going to probably be a
• 12:28
  bit of a think boy preface I think as well.
• 12:32
  Start my rabbit hole story is is this is how deep I'm getting
• 12:38
  into the rabbit hole. So please excuse me, but
• 12:42
  discovering Bitcoin, I think I'm still discovering it and I think
• 12:47
  I always will be discovering Bitcoin.
• 12:52
  And if you zoom out in, in my sort of mind, I think, OK, have
• 12:58
  I always been discovering Bitcoin ever since, you know,
• 13:02
  I've been alive and people sort of say, was Bitcoin invented or
• 13:06
  discovered all that sort of stuff?
• 13:08
  And that just brings me off on a whole mind journey that that
• 13:11
  sort of stuff. Because I think, you know, we're
• 13:14
  talking about earlier truth and what is truth?
• 13:16
  And you know, I was fortunate enough to stumble across Bitcoin
• 13:20
  and be curious just enough to sort of involve my most of my
• 13:25
  time in it. So it's a never ending
• 13:28
  discovery, I think. But for me, if you was to put a
• 13:32
  timeline on it, it it came at a point of chaos in my life.
• 13:37
  I was in I was married with kids.
• 13:42
  It was straight up I met my ex-wife straight in college.
• 13:46
  It was a whole fast and you know, I was going through
• 13:51
  society's expectations. Ultimately, I was escaping quite
• 13:55
  a chaotic childhood from my my family home and I jumped from
• 14:01
  the pan into a different fire that replicated my chaotic toxic
• 14:07
  family home, You know, just trying to survive in familiarity
• 14:12
  and I wasn't awake or aware, self aware.
• 14:15
  I was just living life through, you know, my nervous system and
• 14:19
  familiarity. And it wasn't until much later
• 14:24
  after I've bought my first house, had my kids, you know,
• 14:27
  like a 2.4 children get a house, all that sort of stuff that that
• 14:31
  people are sort of like expected to do in society.
• 14:36
  And it all just came tumbling down because, you know, it was
• 14:39
  it was never meant to be. It was a moment in time where I
• 14:46
  realized that my life was on a trajectory of a end goal.
• 14:54
  So like work, retire, all that sort of stuff at my house and
• 14:58
  things, and that was never going to happen.
• 15:00
  So I was thinking far too ahead in the future, trying to keep up
• 15:03
  with the hamsters will. When my marriage fell apart, you
• 15:08
  know, I lost the house and you know, I had to change my whole
• 15:12
  lifestyle and routine and work around seeing my kids and all
• 15:16
  that sort of stuff. And I was like, OK, here I am at
• 15:21
  rock bottom now, not living the life I thought I was.
• 15:24
  And it was a wake up call. But even then I still wasn't
• 15:29
  awake. I was still trying to get back
• 15:31
  to where I was before the marriage feather part.
• 15:35
  So I wanted to try and figure out a way to try and make money
• 15:40
  quick to try and catch back up to where I was before.
• 15:44
  And that's where I discovered the the realm of cryptos.
• 15:47
  I remembered when I remembered I was at one stage I was working a
• 15:53
  full time job working 12 hour shifts and shift work.
• 15:57
  I was going to night college twice a week to say become an
• 16:01
  electrician. And I had little side gig doing
• 16:05
  photography events. So I was like I was juggling.
• 16:09
  I was, you know, keep trying to keep my head above water all the
• 16:11
  time. And I remembered in in my
• 16:15
  college course in the electricians course, the tutor
• 16:18
  was getting into crypto at the time and it was quite a new
• 16:20
  thing back then. And that just kind of sparked my
• 16:25
  interest because I remembered him and I knew he did quite
• 16:28
  well. So I went straight on to
• 16:31
  Coinbase and I put like 1000 lbs and I divided that 1000 lbs up
• 16:36
  into the top 10 cryptos, obviously Bitcoin number one and
• 16:40
  whatever the others were. And I just threw this money
• 16:44
  blindly at it thinking that, you know, I might be able to make
• 16:49
  these gains, right? Because all this, all these.
• 16:52
  Show me the incentive, baby. Some blah, blah, blah, yeah.
• 16:54
  And I was like, OK, I can, this is like, I can probably, you
• 16:58
  know, make some money here. Actually, I've seen it go up and
• 17:03
  down in value. There's been rug pools
• 17:05
  everywhere. I was like, Oh my God, I'm way
• 17:07
  over my head here. And I was fortunate enough to
• 17:12
  sort of try to investigate a little bit more about what these
• 17:16
  things were. And I was fortunate enough to
• 17:19
  stumble across the toxicity of some Bitcoin and saying Bitcoin
• 17:23
  only. And, and the the tone and the
• 17:27
  the message and the narrative was starkly different from what
• 17:32
  you were hearing about all the other stuff.
• 17:34
  It wasn't about pumping this to here and that.
• 17:37
  It was more like philosophical and sort of that purposeful with
• 17:40
  Bitcoin. And that was the thing that
• 17:43
  really sort of like sparked my curiosity enough to dig a little
• 17:46
  bit deeper. And once once that curiosity is
• 17:51
  sparked and then you read something, you've been inspired
• 17:54
  to read something else and then something else.
• 17:56
  And then it just becomes this perpetual tumbling of
• 18:00
  realization. And I can't remember exactly
• 18:03
  when it was, but there was a moment I was like, OK, I think I
• 18:06
  understand this now is Bitcoin only for me?
• 18:10
  And I transferred everything over to to Bitcoin and I haven't
• 18:12
  looked back since. And I still even then didn't
• 18:15
  know much about it. But I knew that that Bitcoin was
• 18:19
  different and special. And that's why I'm saying you're
• 18:23
  always discovering Bitcoin because I didn't stop right
• 18:27
  trying to understand it, whether it's the technicals, what's
• 18:30
  mining. And when you know, then you go
• 18:32
  into energy, then you go into incentives.
• 18:34
  And before you know it, you're like confronted with all these
• 18:39
  different possible possible ways to, to relearn everything.
• 18:44
  So that's where I'm at today, ultimately.
• 18:46
  Unreal. It's, I mean, it's, it's
• 18:50
  definitely one of the most intellectually pleasurable
• 18:57
  things you could probably have a stump upon if you're a curious
• 19:00
  individual. And no matter what triggers it,
• 19:05
  you know, if you have that innate curiosity, you will be in
• 19:12
  like, it's an insati, like it's insatiable.
• 19:15
  You can just spin off into so many different directions.
• 19:17
  And I see it, you know, certain people with certain personality
• 19:21
  types that are a little bit more analytical and perhaps
• 19:25
  engineering minded, you know, want to sort of reduce
• 19:28
  everything down to its component parts and pick it all apart.
• 19:31
  And then there's others that spin all the way up to the top
• 19:34
  and want to see it from a macro perspective and or holistic
• 19:38
  perspective, or in my case, you know, a spiral.
• 19:44
  But yeah, I mean, just in terms of because because that whole
• 19:50
  breakdown of your relationship, your marriage, losing all of
• 19:55
  that shit, going through all of that fire, going through all of
• 19:58
  that hell and torment, really. Like, it's not, it's it's that
• 20:02
  shit is not easy. Do you think that like they
• 20:09
  always sort of talk about, you know, that's the the moment when
• 20:15
  when everything is sort of falling to shit, you can either
• 20:18
  like really just kind of lean in and let it fall to shit and just
• 20:22
  be a complete nihilistic. Household or you can halt, take
• 20:28
  a look around and be like, cool, OK, this is happening.
• 20:31
  Let's make peace with this as best I can right now and how can
• 20:35
  I sort of move forward? And when you sort of make that
• 20:38
  mindset shift, that's when the guru appears or whatever it is,
• 20:44
  you know, in in that in that case.
• 20:47
  And that all comes from within. But do you think from a mental
• 20:52
  health perspective, once you started to grok Bitcoin and
• 20:56
  you're like, hang on a minute. I can at least distract myself
• 20:58
  with the amount of fascinating information that this thing it
• 21:02
  gives gives me. And then over time that
• 21:05
  cultivates into a like a more of a mental toughness, I guess.
• 21:08
  Am I barking up the wrong tree here?
• 21:12
  No, man, you're exactly on the right path.
• 21:14
  And but you know, in, in, in moments like that, you're,
• 21:17
  you're, you know, are you going to get back on the horse or are
• 21:21
  you going to stay down? And, you know, I'm fortunate
• 21:26
  enough to have, you know, sort of like, and it takes a lot.
• 21:30
  It takes a lot. Once you, once you're down,
• 21:32
  you're like, it's hard for people to stand back up again.
• 21:39
  And I don't quite know what it was other than the fact that,
• 21:45
  you know, I, I've got kids and that, you know, I, I, that that
• 21:51
  was a huge incentive for me was to be like, OK, I'm in this
• 21:56
  situation and I, you know, want my kids to still respect and
• 22:04
  might be in my life, right? And I need to be the best
• 22:08
  representation that I can be of what's possible for them, you
• 22:14
  know, be be a lesson for resilience and growth.
• 22:22
  And I think that was the biggest driver ultimately, you know, and
• 22:28
  I'm grateful for that, obviously, because, you know,
• 22:30
  being a parent changes your whole outlook on on life as
• 22:35
  well, just like Bitcoin does in a weird way.
• 22:40
  And yeah, you just have to, you just have to get up again,
• 22:42
  right? And all it was really for me as
• 22:46
  well was survival. And I needed to sort of like get
• 22:51
  by in society as well. You know, I needed to try and
• 22:54
  figure out a way of being independent and sort of living
• 22:57
  my own life. And, you know, when you're not
• 22:59
  used to that, you're not positive with a map of life,
• 23:02
  right? You just have to try and figure
• 23:04
  it out. So yeah, at some point, you just
• 23:06
  have to get back up. And that's the sad thing about
• 23:09
  Fiat incentives. If we go back, there is, you
• 23:13
  know, you, you, once you've established something earlier,
• 23:18
  it's, it's twice as hard to establish it and restart again
• 23:22
  at a later time. Because obviously the constant
• 23:25
  devaluation of, of your purchasing power, the increase
• 23:30
  in the price of real estate, you know, you have to run harder and
• 23:35
  faster just to try and achieve the same goal.
• 23:39
  That would have been a little bit easier, you know, 10 years
• 23:42
  prior. And it's, it's, it's a difficult
• 23:47
  situation out there at the moment for people, especially if
• 23:49
  you're trying to, you know, find somewhere to live.
• 23:52
  People living in like houses with like 6 people renting that
• 23:57
  same house, you know, on top of each other just to try and sort
• 24:00
  of have a roof over your head. And it's hard, man.
• 24:04
  It's hard. It's.
• 24:06
  Gross. It's gross.
• 24:07
  I've started. It's disgusting, it's disgusting
• 24:10
  and it's I've started to sort of think about fear as a
• 24:19
  narcissistic parent lately as well.
• 24:23
  Because in narcissistic personality disorders, there's
• 24:29
  these 9 traits of what makes up a narcissist.
• 24:33
  And if you take the headings of that, So the traits of a
• 24:37
  narcissist are grandiosity so that exaggerate yourself for a
• 24:42
  sense of self importance. Fantasies, fantasies of
• 24:47
  unlimited success or power. So preoccupation with ideas of
• 24:51
  brilliance and wealth and all that sort of stuff.
• 24:54
  The third one is belief in them being special, seeing themselves
• 24:59
  as unique and only understood by or needing to associate with
• 25:02
  other high status people or institutions.
• 25:05
  The need for excessive admiration is #4 sense of
• 25:09
  entitlement #5 exploitation of others number six, lack of
• 25:14
  empathy 7. Envy 8.
• 25:17
  So often being envious of others or believing others are envious
• 25:20
  of them. Right?
• 25:22
  And arrogance. And they're the 9 traits of a
• 25:24
  narcissist. Seriously.
• 25:25
  OK, that's that's fear. That's.
• 25:27
  Totally. That's fear.
• 25:28
  That's the state, brother. That's the state and that it's,
• 25:35
  it's exactly so we, we've all been brought up with a
• 25:39
  narcissistic state. And if you think about it a
• 25:42
  little bit, OK, so your parents were born into that, you know,
• 25:46
  and they and people tend to play out those narcissistic traits on
• 25:50
  each other in society because, you know, that's normal, right?
• 25:55
  And people in narcissistic relationships don't know they're
• 25:57
  in narcissist relationships until they start to sort of
• 26:00
  question it a little bit and push back.
• 26:01
  And that starts Bitcoiners, right, where you can start to
• 26:05
  see and realise that you're in this relationship with the
• 26:07
  state. And that goes into the, you
• 26:10
  know, personal relationships as well, because I think
• 26:13
  relationships now are becoming much more transactional and
• 26:17
  there's, there's no real commitment anymore.
• 26:19
  You know, it's what can you offer?
• 26:20
  What can you give the other person?
• 26:23
  What can I get? What can I get from?
• 26:25
  What can you get? What can you get?
• 26:27
  And and there's always someone out there that willing to give
• 26:30
  you more than what you're getting.
• 26:32
  So it just creates this whole incentive in society that that
• 26:37
  falls apart, right, because you're in an environment with
• 26:40
  with a state that's a mass and it's hard to escape that and.
• 26:45
  You almost have to capitulate and become a narcissist in that
• 26:51
  in that way as well, just in order to.
• 26:53
  You're going to survive. Yeah, Yeah, you have to, you
• 26:56
  have to replicate that in order to get by in life.
• 27:00
  And when you start seeing the world through that, that lens,
• 27:02
  you're echoing behaviours of a narcissist.
• 27:06
  And that's why I think you get a lot of social media content now
• 27:13
  about all he this is this person's.
• 27:15
  And you get a lot of narratives about people being narcissists.
• 27:20
  And I think, you know, people are right in the fact that
• 27:22
  people do behave that way. But if you zoom out, it's, it's
• 27:26
  a far bigger problem than just, you know, down to people.
• 27:32
  It's just the incentives of how to live nowadays.
• 27:36
  People again, like, it's that pervasive feeling that is just
• 27:41
  in the air and they can't put their finger on it.
• 27:44
  And then they, they probably don't even realize that they,
• 27:50
  they're doing that. They're treating people
• 27:52
  transactionally. You know, I can recount like I
• 27:58
  used to be deep, deep, deeply embedded within a particular
• 28:02
  industry and would, you know, it was sort of an offshoot of, of
• 28:07
  like my journalism career. And I would cultivate these
• 28:10
  relationships over long periods of time to develop some high
• 28:14
  trust so that I could extract the best stories and see, you
• 28:18
  know, get the most candid kind of thing.
• 28:20
  And, and, and eventually, I mean, possibly it was my fault
• 28:24
  because I was, you know, you sort of, you never mates with
• 28:26
  them because they're still like the subject on the other end.
• 28:30
  But there is a sense of camaraderie maybe.
• 28:35
  And when all that turned to shit, I just realized not a
• 28:41
  single one of those people reached out and was like, hey,
• 28:45
  are you cool? Like, you know, and I just
• 28:48
  realized, oh, you transactional mother fuckers.
• 28:51
  Like here I am thinking we've got like, I mean, that's
• 28:54
  probably my personality type too.
• 28:55
  I was talking to random Quedum on on a pod the other day and it
• 28:59
  was like INFJ or some shit. And apparently it's like, I
• 29:02
  don't know, I don't even want to go into it.
• 29:04
  But my point is this, like I'm sure none of those people were
• 29:07
  meaning to be transactional or meaning to be forgetful or
• 29:12
  whatever. And like, because like, who the
• 29:13
  fuck who cares anyway? Like it's not, you know, it's
• 29:16
  not their responsibility to check in and see how I was
• 29:19
  doing. But it was that point of like,
• 29:20
  I'd like to think that I would, you know, like, like if there
• 29:23
  was a, a couple of friends out there or some comrades or
• 29:26
  whatever the fuck, you just be like, hey, man, like, haven't,
• 29:29
  you know, you're cool, You know, And I think that most people
• 29:33
  just are so consumed by their day-to-day bullshit and they're
• 29:38
  fed through algorithms and the fucking news.
• 29:41
  And as we've talked about, like at the top and it's just you,
• 29:44
  you have no bandwidth, no breathing room, no space to even
• 29:48
  like sit and just be for 5 minutes, you know, and, and even
• 29:53
  contemplate some of this stuff, you know, you just swept up and
• 29:56
  then life just starts happening to you and you turn around twice
• 29:59
  and like 2 decades have gone and you're like, what the fuck just
• 30:03
  happened, you know? Totally, man.
• 30:08
  Like, yeah. And like even with, like,
• 30:10
  exactly right. You know, even with all the
• 30:13
  different types of work and relationships at work, I've
• 30:15
  built up and you you go to work and like, you associate with
• 30:19
  these people and like you have a good, you know, banter and
• 30:22
  relationship, but once you leave, it's like you're
• 30:26
  forgotten, right? And yeah, all these connections,
• 30:31
  friendships even, right? So many superficial friendships
• 30:35
  now. Like I've got a very, very small
• 30:38
  circle of friends and they've stayed with me for for, you
• 30:42
  know, a long time, right? And, you know, you know, you've
• 30:46
  got a friend where like, it could even be a year since you
• 30:49
  last spoke to them, but you know, you can meet up with them
• 30:52
  and they're, you know, still there for you.
• 30:55
  And like it's like, you know, they always will show up for
• 30:58
  you, but everything's very, very short term nowadays and
• 31:06
  transactional, like we said. And it just becomes, you know,
• 31:10
  what is mutually beneficial for us now.
• 31:14
  And people don't, people don't challenge their friends anymore.
• 31:23
  It's just everyone's very agreeable, validating everything
• 31:27
  they say. And I think a true friendship
• 31:30
  would be, it'd be like me, you know, about this, you know, and,
• 31:35
  and have these uncomfortable conversations wherever it may be
• 31:38
  and that, that, that, that will strengthen the friendship,
• 31:42
  right? But if you're always pretending
• 31:45
  and being superficial and just sort of going along with
• 31:47
  whatever everyone's saying, mate, that's, that's a sad,
• 31:50
  lonely place to be, right? Because you, you come, you come
• 31:53
  out of that engagement lacking, you know, empathy or, you know,
• 32:01
  you just become this sort of person who's just trying to
• 32:04
  offer somebody some dopamine relief and then you're hoping
• 32:08
  you're going to get that back from them.
• 32:11
  And it's just also very superficial and.
• 32:14
  Platitudes, man, you just and imagine, yeah, it's it'd be like
• 32:22
  you're like paying for a fucking blowjob, you know what I mean?
• 32:24
  Like it just wouldn't be that good.
• 32:26
  It just it can't be it can't be I never have.
• 32:28
  I never will. But like, I just can't imagine
• 32:30
  it being that fucking good because you know in the back of
• 32:33
  your mind that you've spent like whatever, I don't know what
• 32:37
  what, what, what it is but you know what I'm saying?
• 32:39
  Like it, it, it's just this hollowness this like you've
• 32:43
  effectively rug pulled yourself because you've you've placed
• 32:48
  like you've transacted with value, but you've in it because
• 32:51
  it's it's such a such a hollow transaction.
• 32:54
  It's you've kind of lost touch with reality.
• 32:56
  I don't know. Yeah, it's and so like, I mean,
• 33:01
  obviously, yeah. Like if you're just entering
• 33:03
  constantly conversations like you'd if you do it at work.
• 33:07
  Yeah. No.
• 33:08
  Wow, that's amazing. I'm at the water cooler and I
• 33:11
  somehow give a fuck about, you know, your football team or
• 33:13
  whatever it is like, you know, I'd rather tell someone that
• 33:17
  they're that they're wrong, you know, and just deal with the
• 33:21
  consequences and be like, look, I'm not trying to be in an
• 33:23
  asshole here. But I mean that's part of the
• 33:25
  Bitcoin to trade, particularly nowadays early doors is we're
• 33:28
  all very disagreeable people. Yeah.
• 33:32
  And you know what, right now in I'm in Bitcoin, I'm very much
• 33:36
  appreciate people telling me that they think I'm wrong and
• 33:40
  I'm willing to sort of listen and hear what they got to say
• 33:44
  because, you know, everyone's got an opinion about whatever.
• 33:49
  I've got mine, you've got yours, someone else has got theirs.
• 33:52
  Let's all share our opinions and then have a discussion about it,
• 33:55
  right? Because that's where you get
• 33:57
  close to the truth, right? And and then you can sort of
• 33:59
  like discover where people are coming from and, and why.
• 34:04
  And I think there's a lot of value in there.
• 34:06
  And I think Bitcoin does and Bitcoiners being not very
• 34:11
  agreeable, you know, we're willing you go to these meet
• 34:15
  ups, you go to conferences and you know, the real conversations
• 34:19
  aren't on the stage. The real conversations are out
• 34:22
  outside. But Bitcoiners are just talking
• 34:26
  about the most random stuff in depth, right?
• 34:29
  And, and it's a, it's a fascinating ecosystem and I'm so
• 34:35
  grateful to be a part of it because you know, it, it gives
• 34:40
  everyone agency, sovereignty, you know, curiosity and
• 34:46
  everyone's got an interest in whatever it may be.
• 34:50
  And the incentive advises you to educate yourself, be more
• 34:54
  insightful, more articulate, more engaging, better
• 34:59
  communicators. And I think the incentives of
• 35:03
  Bitcoin, if we compare it to what we're just talking about
• 35:07
  with Fiat and our system, is I think it is a way to unpack
• 35:13
  those narcissistic traits, right?
• 35:15
  And that we can't help because of the society we've grew up in
• 35:20
  and the way that we've been indoctrinated and sort of like
• 35:23
  told to see the world and associate with others.
• 35:26
  We can't help but bring those traits as Bitcoiners into the
• 35:29
  Bitcoin space. And I think it's important for
• 35:32
  us as Bitcoiners to be aware of our own flaws or own fear
• 35:40
  identities within Bitcoin. And I think that's where, you
• 35:44
  know, these conversations like the one we're having right now
• 35:47
  and in conferences or whatever, where we can actually really
• 35:52
  start to recognize, you know, the way that we see the world
• 35:55
  and re educate ourselves to each other and with each other and on
• 35:59
  our own as well. So I'm quite hopeful for that as
• 36:04
  a Bitcoin, you know, as a reverse incentive, right, where
• 36:08
  you can escape those sort of transactional relationships a
• 36:12
  bit more because you know, the amount of friendships I've I've
• 36:14
  gained in, in the Bitcoin space, it's unbelievable, right?
• 36:19
  You travel around the world, you see people you know, you know.
• 36:24
  It's, it's, it's a great, it's a great sensation, right, to be
• 36:27
  part of. I think it's almost impossible
• 36:31
  to make friends as an adult unless you're a bitcoiner.
• 36:35
  Seriously, like I've got a couple of of solid mates that I
• 36:39
  would count as like super solid friends that I've known only
• 36:44
  because of Bitcoin. And there is not a fucking
• 36:47
  chance in hell that hadn't not been for our just general.
• 36:51
  And we've spun off into all these different other topics
• 36:53
  now. And you know, but it's the thing
• 36:55
  that broke the ice because I mean, and I don't know, like if
• 36:58
  this is just an exclusively male trait, I'm pretty sure it's not,
• 37:03
  but it's, it's, it's very difficult to put yourself out
• 37:06
  there as an adult and like an attempt to ingratiate yourself
• 37:11
  in a new company of people when you when you have your call set
• 37:18
  of friends from uni or high school, whatever.
• 37:21
  But man, like the, the couple of these mates that I've made, like
• 37:24
  quite a few of them just just from Bitcoin alone is, is
• 37:28
  bananas. And, and like the depth of
• 37:30
  conversation and the, and the fearlessness with which you can
• 37:34
  all sort of talk to each other too.
• 37:37
  I mean, it's, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's huge.
• 37:41
  Hey. No, it's, it's massive.
• 37:44
  And I was in, I was in the pub last week and I just stuck up a
• 37:50
  conversation with the people on the table next to me.
• 37:55
  And I've, I've quickly regretted it because the way that they see
• 38:00
  the world ultimately, you know, you present something this, this
• 38:03
  very sort of echoing of, of mainstream media now here for,
• 38:07
  you know, very like, I don't know, lacks understanding.
• 38:15
  Whatever they're saying. It's almost like they're
• 38:17
  parroting something they've heard to sound, but they know it
• 38:23
  and to appear intellectual and and when you're a bitcoiner.
• 38:28
  Guardian readers. Or that.
• 38:30
  Yeah. And you're like, oh, OK, yeah.
• 38:34
  I can't, I can't have a conversation.
• 38:36
  They watch. They watch like we, we, I mean,
• 38:38
  fuck, I used to do that. Not exactly that, but you'd
• 38:42
  really, you'd watch political shows.
• 38:44
  You know, I don't know what the equivalent is.
• 38:46
  You know, they'd have it on a Monday night, like we call it
• 38:48
  Q&A, or they'd be like this thing on a Sunday.
• 38:50
  Yeah, Question Time. Yeah.
• 38:53
  And like, yeah, if you didn't watch that and then have those
• 38:56
  sort of highbrow conversations the next day, you weren't
• 38:59
  keeping up. And that's that's like at some
• 39:01
  point you just realize all you're just stupid.
• 39:05
  Or, or they, they, they, they genuinely, I don't know.
• 39:08
  I don't know, like a lot has changed in the last five years.
• 39:11
  Let's be honest. But yeah, it it's and it's just
• 39:17
  a shallow conversation. You just and you want to tell
• 39:20
  them, hey, man, like I read the headline too.
• 39:22
  Hey, and I actually don't agree with it.
• 39:26
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they don't know how to
• 39:28
  handle that because they don't actually understand what they're
• 39:32
  saying. So if you challenge it, you're
• 39:34
  you're, you're challenging the lack of understanding of it and.
• 39:39
  Well, they're just saying, oh, come on, Ian, you've been, come
• 39:42
  on, Just don't just leave it. Just leave it, mate.
• 39:45
  Come on. Conspiracy theories.
• 39:46
  Just leave it, yeah. Just can't we all just get
• 39:49
  along? You're saying about male traitor
• 39:53
  earlier as well? That's an interesting one
• 39:57
  because into slightly now I think, I think masculinities.
• 40:03
  A difficult topic, right be being a man in society is is a
• 40:08
  difficult thing at the moment. And again, it comes down to
• 40:13
  these swinging narratives about, you know, what's toxic, what is
• 40:19
  appropriate? You know, you get all these new
• 40:21
  laws and regulations that are, you know, enforced by the state
• 40:25
  and, you know, certain people in society are, are blamed for
• 40:30
  whatever it may be. And it's, it's, it's tough out
• 40:33
  there, man. It's tough.
• 40:35
  Yeah, people got to look at the stats though, you know, the, the
• 40:40
  lack of, I mean, if anything, we should have more toxic
• 40:42
  masculinity, you know, and when I say toxic masculinity, I mean
• 40:47
  just standing up and doing what is right, doing the thing that
• 40:52
  is right. And, and you know, you don't
• 40:56
  have to be arrogant. You don't have to be an asshole
• 41:00
  about it or a dickhead or, you know, be a bully.
• 41:05
  You can, you can just, you know, I mean, there's a lot of a lot
• 41:08
  of people in the Bitcoin space that I just, I take a lot of
• 41:12
  like inspiration from. And sometimes some of them go, I
• 41:16
  mean, look, you just got to spit out the bone.
• 41:18
  As a buddy of mine says, you just take what works, leave what
• 41:20
  doesn't. And but ultimately the the the
• 41:27
  the rising like there's just a lot of pussies around this just
• 41:30
  to say it. It's just a lot of people that
• 41:34
  pussies platitudes and just just being just being far too
• 41:41
  agreeable effectively. 100% May and that I You might listen to
• 41:50
  someone, but you're never going to agree with everything one
• 41:53
  person is going to say because because if you do like you need
• 41:57
  to check yourself. You know, there's always going
• 41:59
  to be something in whatever someone says that you don't
• 42:03
  agree with, even though the majority of stuff you do agree
• 42:05
  with, like, you know, doesn't mean if you disagree with them
• 42:10
  that they're bad person or you should counsel them or whatever
• 42:14
  it may be. You know this, everyone's on
• 42:16
  their own bloody journey, right? Everyone sees the world through
• 42:19
  their own lens and their own experience and they're into
• 42:23
  normal, you know, understanding and like maybe all, we're all
• 42:28
  trying to just get by in life and just fucking survive a
• 42:31
  little bit, right? And there are some things that
• 42:35
  are unlikable about everyone, including myself, right?
• 42:38
  And, you know, you just need to just be authentic as you can in
• 42:43
  any given moment and be brave enough to stand up for yourself
• 42:48
  and challenge other people without it being a whole bloody,
• 42:52
  you know, way to sort of cancel each other out or, you know,
• 43:00
  everyone's easily offended. I mean, you're going to be
• 43:06
  offended in your life. Just deal with it.
• 43:08
  You know, they're going to be tough times in your life.
• 43:10
  Just, you have to get through it, right?
• 43:14
  And just just grab a fucking pair.
• 43:18
  Well, I mean, there's that notion that, you know, that I've
• 43:23
  been coming on to a little bit lately, which is that there's,
• 43:30
  we're all just souls. I mean, there's this, I can't
• 43:33
  remember who said of whatever, but we're all carrying around a
• 43:36
  bag of rocks, right? Everyone's got their own bag of
• 43:38
  rocks. They're trying to get drag
• 43:39
  around and trying to offload. We're trying to get the rocks
• 43:43
  out of the bag. Like don't be that person that
• 43:46
  adds more rocks to that other person's bag.
• 43:48
  Try and lighten their load a little bit.
• 43:50
  Like, you know, we've all got, as you say.
• 43:52
  And Ramdas, I listen to quite a lot.
• 43:56
  He he talks about like trying to get back behind the form into
• 44:03
  the formless where the person is as a soul that is just here on
• 44:08
  this, on this plane, trying to, as you said, like just get on
• 44:13
  and try and make trying to figure out what the lessons are
• 44:16
  here, You know, doing the curriculum.
• 44:18
  You know, if this is a school, let's take the curriculum and
• 44:22
  try not to try not to be that substitute teacher or that that
• 44:27
  headmaster that just makes someone's life shitty for that
• 44:31
  moment, for that day. You know, it's yeah, I don't
• 44:35
  know, man. Yeah.
• 44:37
  Two ears, one mouth. Yeah, yeah, you've got, what was
• 44:42
  that saying? You've got one mouth and two
• 44:45
  ears, so you should do twice as much listening as talking.
• 44:49
  Yes. It's very true, man.
• 44:53
  And that you've mentioned school and that's the whole other whole
• 44:56
  thing, right? Is like schools are very profit
• 44:58
  driven. That's bombs and seats, budgets
• 45:00
  and curriculum and expectations of, you know, are you a good
• 45:05
  school, bad school? And even if even this stuff
• 45:09
  people are taught, man, we are not taught money in economics in
• 45:12
  school. That's suspicious, right?
• 45:14
  Come on. Why is that?
• 45:16
  Oh yeah. Are they trying to keep
• 45:19
  something from us to question, to question what this horrible
• 45:24
  bloody thing called Fiat money is?
• 45:27
  Right. And I've said to people
• 45:29
  sometimes, do you know what Fiat money is?
• 45:31
  And they're like Fiat money. It's like complete.
• 45:36
  It's the money used to buy little cars from Italy.
• 45:42
  Sometimes I feel sorry for Fiat the company the company because
• 45:47
  at some point they might have to change their brand.
• 45:49
  That's a shitty name. Change it, I don't care.
• 45:52
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe we should.
• 45:54
  You can't decree a car, you have to engineer one.
• 45:56
  You have to test it. OK, you can't just decree that
• 45:59
  you've got a car. Fuck you.
• 46:01
  It's a shit name. Change it.
• 46:04
  And shit cars as well. Shit cars exactly change it.
• 46:08
  It's like it's just pick up the signal for goodness sake.
• 46:16
  Quick break just to say, if you're enjoying the show and
• 46:18
  digging what you hear, please consider supporting discovering
• 46:21
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  sats or zaps of sats in support of the show to Discovering
• 46:51
  Bitcoin at primal.net. Thank you for listening and
• 46:55
  thank you for your support. How has discovering Bitcoin
• 47:00
  changed you? Oh my God, what kind of question
• 47:05
  is that? Come on.
• 47:06
  Like, how can I even begin to start answering that one?
• 47:10
  It's still changing me today. It's made me OK.
• 47:20
  It's going to sound a little bit steam and more emotionally
• 47:22
  mature. I think, I think, I think, I
• 47:25
  think a lot of people in society I'm very judgmental and wide
• 47:31
  sweep and I realized that. But I think, you know, I need to
• 47:34
  compare me to where I was to where I am now.
• 47:38
  And what I observe in Society of my interactions out there is a
• 47:41
  lot of people get stuck in like their their teen years and they
• 47:44
  don't emotionally grow from that that point.
• 47:52
  But me now I, I think I'm, I'm more my emotional actual age
• 47:58
  that as my, you know, Asian years, it's like everyone's
• 48:04
  trying to be Peter Pan and sort of stay in a part of their life
• 48:11
  that they they most associate with before rarely he kicks in
• 48:16
  and life becomes hard. I think I put that down to, you
• 48:22
  know, time preference as well, because if you're operating on a
• 48:26
  high time preference, you get to a point when you start work and
• 48:29
  now you just have to pay the bills and get by.
• 48:32
  So you're investing less in yourself because you're out
• 48:37
  there just trying to, you know, get by in society.
• 48:42
  And the older you get, the more harder you have to work because
• 48:48
  of the purchasing power thing. So I think we've we've time
• 48:51
  preference and that shift that Bitcoin has given me is, is
• 48:55
  giving me more time to be more self reflective and sort of,
• 49:02
  yeah, look at my, you hear that term Bitcoin as a mirror.
• 49:07
  And I think that's right. Because when you're in Bitcoin,
• 49:10
  Bitcoin doesn't give a shit. Bitcoin doesn't care.
• 49:14
  And and sometimes I want Bitcoin to care about me a little bit on
• 49:19
  an ego level. And the fact that it doesn't and
• 49:23
  and still refuses to, I'm like, fuck you, Bitcoin, give a shit
• 49:26
  about me, you know, agree with me, go high.
• 49:29
  And yeah. And it's like, no, he's he can't
• 49:35
  hear you, you know, he can't see you.
• 49:37
  He just does not care. And and if you sit in that for a
• 49:42
  second, think about it, you're just left with yourself, right?
• 49:47
  And I think that's why it's the mirror is like, OK, I'm going to
• 49:51
  have to look at myself in the Mirror Now.
• 49:54
  And I don't like what I see. And it's easy to look away.
• 50:00
  But you know, if you immerse yourself in it and actually sit
• 50:03
  in that discomfort, there's growth there and there's there's
• 50:07
  reality. And we started this conversation
• 50:10
  about the biggest problem in society today.
• 50:13
  I think it's the lack of what is truth, what is true.
• 50:17
  And I think Bitcoin represents truth, right?
• 50:20
  2 + 2 = 4 and you can't escape that, and then you can't escape
• 50:28
  yourself at the same time. So yeah, that's the answer to
• 50:32
  your question I think, brother. I like that because again, the
• 50:37
  Miss Masculinity take, you know, again, that's not really a thing
• 50:43
  that's often talked about either.
• 50:46
  Is that that yeah, that that it's, it's almost like per
• 50:52
  missing giving you, not giving you permission.
• 50:55
  It's permissionless, but that it's sort of like inviting you
• 50:59
  to grow, to evolve effectively. Like, and and it's not, it's not
• 51:05
  that it's doing it, it's a neutral protocol.
• 51:08
  Like it doesn't, as you said, give a shit, but what it, what
• 51:12
  it demands, I think is for you to abide by its rules.
• 51:21
  It's not going to coerce you into, you know, doing any of the
• 51:27
  things that you you want to do. It's not going to, you know, it
• 51:30
  does. It doesn't force you to do
• 51:32
  anything at all. You don't even have to do it.
• 51:35
  It's all voluntary. It's all participatory.
• 51:37
  You can choose to interact with it or not, but if you do want to
• 51:40
  play the game, if you do want to interact, if you want to
• 51:42
  participate, these are the rules.
• 51:46
  Abide cohere. And it's all gravy, baby.
• 51:50
  You know, like that's it. Just create some, create some
• 51:53
  value. And so from that, that is an
• 51:55
  emotional leap. That is a cognitive leap.
• 51:58
  That is something that once you you stand in that for a minute
• 52:02
  and you grok and you think, damn, like, OK, yeah.
• 52:06
  All right, And then you can effectively, you know, not to
• 52:11
  put too fine a point on it, sort your life out, you know, and we
• 52:18
  don't have anything that that holds anyone to account.
• 52:21
  You know, you certainly can't account.
• 52:23
  The whole notion of accounting on Fiat is the most like it's,
• 52:27
  it's just it's so egregious, it's not even funny.
• 52:31
  You know, the fact that they try an account like you can't and
• 52:34
  all all the accountants actually like fearful of this thing.
• 52:39
  It's like, bro, this wouldn't make your job that much easier
• 52:42
  to the point where you'd be obsolete, which is a great
• 52:45
  thing. But yeah, like, again,
• 52:49
  coherence. And it scales it to like
• 52:53
  literally a global, a global terrain.
• 52:58
  I don't know, I don't know how to best describe it, but and
• 53:02
  then it enables you to like as you said, you can, you can
• 53:06
  still, you can actually, it actually amplifies that ability
• 53:09
  to be Peter Pan. Like if you want to remain in
• 53:12
  Neverland, you can. That's not real.
• 53:15
  It's hell of a lot of fun. But what you can do is you can
• 53:18
  shift Neverland to just a, you can have it as a sandbox
• 53:22
  somewhere. And you can have like, because
• 53:24
  you're increasing your optionality, you know, you're
• 53:26
  increasing your time so you don't have to constantly
• 53:30
  spending, you know, 40 hours, 50 hours, 60 hours a week chasing
• 53:35
  the dragon. You can start to chip away at
• 53:39
  that. And then, OK, cool.
• 53:40
  I'm a bit more comfortable. I've got a bit more of a firm
• 53:43
  foundation from which to stand on.
• 53:46
  And now I've got some bandwidth to pay attention, maybe explore
• 53:49
  that subject or this topic, or spend more time with the kids.
• 53:54
  Whatever it is, it actually provides that freedom, so long
• 53:58
  as you play by the rules and submit yourself to them.
• 54:01
  You know, it's a weird thing. It is a weird thing and it's and
• 54:07
  you know, you hear that you can opt in to Bitcoin.
• 54:12
  Yeah, true. You can, you know, opt in to
• 54:16
  Bitcoin, but I think there's an opt in to the opt in as well and
• 54:23
  go back to the mirror thing. You have to opt into that
• 54:29
  looking at the mirror. And a lot of people, you know,
• 54:34
  choose not to do that and hold themselves accountable, right?
• 54:40
  Because people don't like to be accountable or responsible for
• 54:47
  their actions or the way or who they are.
• 54:52
  And I think if you actually do that, it makes you a better
• 54:56
  person, right? And Bitcoin not caring is a
• 54:58
  great sort of space or platform or foundation, I suppose.
• 55:06
  It's probably the right word for you to actually play out and
• 55:10
  sort of like theorize and sort of question yourself a little
• 55:13
  bit more. You know, you come back in and
• 55:16
  out of it, you know, depending on your time preference.
• 55:20
  But I think it's an important thing to do is to hold yourself
• 55:22
  accountable, you know, because ultimately, you know, if if we
• 55:28
  can as humans within Bitcoin be the best representation of what
• 55:35
  Bitcoin is and what you can do for people and the way we
• 55:40
  interact with each other. That is the ultimate orange pill
• 55:44
  moment, I think, where you know, if you are a better person
• 55:51
  overall and the more people that do that, the more recognizable
• 55:56
  would be and spark difference for people to see.
• 55:59
  There is a difference between Bitcoin and crypto and the way
• 56:03
  people communicate. Like I discovered Bitcoin.
• 56:07
  Yeah. So it's a it's a, an opt in to
• 56:12
  an opt in. So I think, you know, that is an
• 56:15
  opportunity for Bitcoin as and I'll see more and more of that
• 56:18
  now, which is which is nice and encouraging.
• 56:19
  The longer you're in Bitcoin, you know, the the lower your
• 56:24
  time preference gets as well. And exactly and you, you use
• 56:31
  you're compelled to save rather than Squanda.
• 56:36
  You, you want to, you want to make sure that if you're going
• 56:39
  to allocate capital, particularly that kind of
• 56:42
  capital and it's context dependent.
• 56:45
  You know, I bought a bacon egg roll with some sats the other
• 56:48
  day because I could, right? Yeah, yeah.
• 56:52
  And. It's fun painting stuff with
• 56:55
  lightning A. 100 percent, 100%, it's great.
• 56:58
  It's awesome. It's it's actually incredible.
• 57:00
  Yeah. Just how simple it is.
• 57:04
  But yeah, it's the the the holding yourself to accountable
• 57:09
  and and ensuring that you grow is, is something else.
• 57:16
  And because again, like as a father, you do have that
• 57:19
  responsibility. That's one of the main drivers
• 57:21
  that got you through that really tough time.
• 57:24
  And so then you want to now honor that even further and
• 57:27
  deeper by by, you know, being that rock, that maturity that
• 57:33
  that kind of North star effectively for your kids to be
• 57:36
  like, damn, OK. Yeah, I'm passing on that,
• 57:40
  passing it. On.
• 57:43
  Legacy or that incentive within them as well.
• 57:46
  You know, you need, you need to you know, you want I want my
• 57:52
  kids to be like a better people, whatever that means.
• 57:58
  But I want you want I want better for them than I had level
• 58:02
  up, level up. And you know, you can only do
• 58:06
  that by being the best example you can be for yourself, for
• 58:10
  them. Yeah.
• 58:13
  And if you live by that and and you've got Bitcoin in your life,
• 58:16
  mate, that's that's a that's a cheat code and a half.
• 58:18
  All right. That's it, man.
• 58:22
  I mean, these kinds of conversations drive must drive
• 58:26
  like Guardian readers at the wall.
• 58:28
  I mean, if they if they just listen, you know, like when it's
• 58:32
  such a genuine, heartfelt and authentic conversation that
• 58:35
  we're having, it's, it's just, it's really quite something,
• 58:38
  man. And, you know, we're painted as
• 58:41
  speculators and psychopaths and, you know, ocean boilers and all
• 58:46
  this other shit. And it's like, Nah, man, yeah,
• 58:48
  we're just trying to get on and. And you and I have never met Net
• 58:52
  4. This is the first time we've
• 58:53
  ever spoke and we're able to have a type of conversation like
• 58:57
  this. That's fucking wild, bruv.
• 58:59
  It's like. Yeah, I mean, like, I can't even
• 59:05
  name family members that I'd probably have this deep a
• 59:08
  conversation with, truth be told.
• 59:10
  Yeah, Yeah. So that's Bitcoin.
• 59:12
  That's the value in Bitcoin, I think.
• 59:15
  Well, not the value. There's many different values by
• 59:17
  it's not just whatever prices that you know there is.
• 59:22
  There are multiple different values and value incentives in
• 59:26
  Bitcoin and this is 1 of it. Our conversation is an example
• 59:29
  of that. It's real space.
• 59:32
  In reality, we're just talking about what's real, you know?
• 59:38
  What do you wish more people knew about Bitcoin?
• 59:45
  OK, I I've got my. I want them to realize that it's
• 59:56
  not just about how much money you can earn.
• 1:00:02
  But why this is astute like this is like a, you know, a brain
• 1:00:08
  fart answer. But I want people to find out
• 1:00:13
  for themselves, and that's the only way you can do it, you
• 1:00:18
  know? Touch the stove.
• 1:00:21
  Touch the stove. It will hurt, but you'll heal.
• 1:00:27
  Yeah. And that's what I wish for
• 1:00:28
  people, is if they just brave enough to touch the stove.
• 1:00:32
  And yeah, then they'll understand.
• 1:00:35
  Because you can't describe what touching the stove feels like
• 1:00:37
  until you touch it, right? You know it's going to be hot.
• 1:00:42
  Be brave. What?
• 1:00:43
  Does hot mean? It's like, it's like.
• 1:00:46
  Sit with uncomfortable truths, you know, confront yourself a
• 1:00:50
  little bit. Hold yourself to account.
• 1:00:52
  Our whole conversation ultimately is the answer to your
• 1:00:55
  question, yeah. Yeah, true.
• 1:01:01
  I was thinking that scene in Indiana Jones and the is it the
• 1:01:06
  Last Crusade? And he has to take that leap of
• 1:01:09
  faith across the chasm to get the Holy Grail.
• 1:01:13
  Yeah. And some like dependent
• 1:01:14
  financial pass or whatever, I don't know, but like it's the,
• 1:01:17
  it's a leap of faith you have to have.
• 1:01:19
  Yeah. Totally the curiosity and the
• 1:01:27
  courage to dive in, see what happens.
• 1:01:32
  You know, I mean, it's not, it's not like all people give it
• 1:01:35
  probably this much thought and this much depth and breadth in
• 1:01:38
  their minds. There's there's people out there
• 1:01:40
  that are just like, fuck it, let's just, you know, and then
• 1:01:43
  maybe over time they cultivate that.
• 1:01:45
  I mean, I know I did. I was just like, whatever, I'll
• 1:01:47
  just Chuck some money at this thing and see what happened.
• 1:01:51
  But yeah, like inherently you, you do need to cultivate that
• 1:01:57
  sense of curiosity to really, yeah, to really get get to
• 1:02:03
  understand it and rock it in the.
• 1:02:05
  You don't know until you know you know.
• 1:02:07
  Exactly. Exactly.
• 1:02:11
  Everyone has to start from zero, and zero is yeah, 00, right?
• 1:02:18
  Get to 1, not to one Bitcoin, because I'm don't agree with the
• 1:02:21
  whole American British hobble thing.
• 1:02:22
  That's ridiculous. But yeah, one Bitcoin equals one
• 1:02:26
  Bitcoin just. Some sats man like shit.
• 1:02:28
  Post on nostril and people will send you Bitcoin for fucking
• 1:02:31
  yeah. That's right, mate.
• 1:02:34
  Live your life, you know, be sovereign and be authentic,
• 1:02:40
  right? Yeah.
• 1:02:43
  That's, you know, that's a good way to live.
• 1:02:47
  What does Bitcoin mean to you? It, it, it means that what,
• 1:02:58
  what, what it means to me is that it's, it means it's a
• 1:03:03
  purposefulness about it. It's it's, it's saved me from
• 1:03:09
  nihilism, cynicism and just stuck in an echo chamber because
• 1:03:23
  but we're just saying, if you don't know until you know what
• 1:03:29
  else, if you're going to do, you just have to subscribe to
• 1:03:32
  something in, in life, you have to make a choice of what echo
• 1:03:37
  chamber is that you're in, not knowing that you're in an echo
• 1:03:41
  chamber. And that's a horrible bind, man.
• 1:03:46
  You know, it's, it's horrible seeing like people who haven't
• 1:03:49
  understood or discover Bitcoin. It's sad because, you know, like
• 1:03:55
  I was at one stage stuck in the ignorance and the matrix eating
• 1:03:59
  steak that isn't steak, you know?
• 1:04:06
  And it's hard, man, because like, you know, I've stumbled
• 1:04:08
  across Bitcoin after touching the stove and I was fortunate
• 1:04:12
  enough just to be a little bit curious about it.
• 1:04:19
  But yeah, man, I don't know. It's hard, isn't it, out there?
• 1:04:23
  You got to remain enthused, man. You know, enthusiasm is it's the
• 1:04:29
  best fertilizer. Yeah.
• 1:04:31
  And that's how you can have that Peter Pan thing.
• 1:04:34
  You know, you're going to be an adult, right?
• 1:04:37
  You're going to have take on the accountability and
• 1:04:39
  responsibility. But you can still have that,
• 1:04:41
  that childlike sense of joy and wonder and enthusiasm.
• 1:04:47
  And if you can spread that at the same time as submitting
• 1:04:51
  yourself to a rule set that is immutable and you need to
• 1:04:56
  account for like that's the, that's the, that's the eye of
• 1:05:01
  the needle. It's life changing.
• 1:05:03
  Yeah, it's life changing. And it's ineffable.
• 1:05:06
  You can't explain it. You can't articulate it.
• 1:05:08
  As somebody, you know, if I had this conversation with a normie
• 1:05:12
  or whatever, they'd be like. What?
• 1:05:15
  Are you talking about talking about you weirdo?
• 1:05:20
  100% man, you're off a Bitcoin is it's the best.
• 1:05:24
  Fuck the chasm. We're going to stay right here
• 1:05:26
  in the early early adopters phase.
• 1:05:28
  I'm down with that. Yeah, yeah, it's GFY.
• 1:05:34
  Ian, thank you so much man for spending scarce time finer
• 1:05:38
  energy telling us the tale of how you discovered Bitcoin.
• 1:05:42
  Mate, thank you for sharing your finite time with me and having
• 1:05:46
  this fascinating conversation. It's always a pleasure to talk
• 1:05:49
  like this with, with fellow Bitcoiners.
• 1:05:51
  It's refreshing, it's educational, it it inspiring, it
• 1:05:59
  gives energy and it's, it's a privilege to be able to, you
• 1:06:04
  know, put this out there and someone might listen.
• 1:06:10
  And I hope they do and they discover Bitcoin.