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The Bloodline of Giants | Tim Chaffey | The Week in Bible Prophecy | Repost · The Week in Bible Prophecy

0:02
Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
0:08
Speaker 2: Hi, I'm gary' Steerman and I have across the table
0:12
Speaker 2: from me an author. His name is Tim Chafey, and
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Speaker 2: he's written a book called Fallen and we're going to
0:18
Speaker 2: talk about fallen angels and a whole lot more, right.
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Speaker 1: Tim, that's right, Gary, Thanks for having me on. It's
0:24
Speaker 1: a privilege.
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Speaker 2: It's a privilege to have you here because this book
0:28
Speaker 2: is an example of how to do deep research. And
0:32
Speaker 2: you've done a lot of research on the sons of
0:34
Speaker 2: God and the nepheline and the Bible, and I think
0:39
Speaker 2: in the days in which we live, people are coming
0:42
Speaker 2: up with a lot of questions about that, and maybe
0:45
Speaker 2: a few decades ago Christians didn't look that deeply into
0:48
Speaker 2: the Bible on this subject.
0:50
Speaker 1: I think that's true. I think part of that is
0:52
Speaker 1: probably due to the rise of the Internet and social media.
0:55
Speaker 1: You're able to find materials that you never would have
0:58
Speaker 1: been able to find before, and so there's more books
1:01
Speaker 1: being written. Unfortunately, a lot of times, I think they
1:03
Speaker 1: focus on the fantastical or the sensational rather than just
1:07
Speaker 1: a detailed biblical study on the topic, which is what
1:09
Speaker 1: I wanted to do. But yeah, the Internet has allowed
1:14
Speaker 1: us to realize there are a lot of other people
1:16
Speaker 1: who think about these weird things like I do, and
1:19
Speaker 1: they want to know about it too. And whereas before
1:21
Speaker 1: publishers are like, that's not going to sell, we don't
1:24
Speaker 1: need to do that. But the Bible talks about this
1:27
Speaker 1: subject quite a bit, and so there are a lot
1:29
Speaker 1: of questions about it.
1:30
Speaker 2: Well, in Genesis six, the sons of God came in
1:33
Speaker 2: to the daughters of men took wives, and it's a
1:37
Speaker 2: very simple statement, not much to it, no details, but
1:41
Speaker 2: it raises a multitude of questions, and in a way,
1:46
Speaker 2: that's what your book is all about, right.
1:48
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, So the first half of the book
1:50
Speaker 1: is all about who are those sons of God? Because
1:52
Speaker 1: that is a debated topic within the church. And then
1:54
Speaker 1: the second half is who are the Nephiline?
1:57
Speaker 2: Okay, who are those sons of God? Now a huge question,
2:01
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking of a lot of TV I've seen
2:03
Speaker 2: lately speculating on ancient peoples and ancient mythology and linking
2:10
Speaker 2: it to maybe some of the UFO appearances and saying
2:13
Speaker 2: they're back those same angels that used to fall down
2:17
Speaker 2: or I have come down on planet Earth are now
2:20
Speaker 2: coming down in their UFOs, and you hear all kinds
2:24
Speaker 2: and every kind of mixture you can think of on
2:26
Speaker 2: this subject lately. But of course what we want is
2:30
Speaker 2: the truth as expressed in the Bible.
2:33
Speaker 1: Right, And so that was my goal, is to filter
2:35
Speaker 1: out a lot of that noise, that of all of
2:38
Speaker 1: the modern speculation, modern sensationalism, if you will. It doesn't
2:43
Speaker 1: mean that all of that is necessarily wrong. But let's
2:45
Speaker 1: just look at what does the Bible actually tell us.
2:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, give it a go here. Where would you start?
2:50
Speaker 1: Well, first we've got to identify who the sons of
2:52
Speaker 1: God are? Who are the daughters of men? And when
2:55
Speaker 1: you look at that terminology and tell us when men
3:00
Speaker 1: began to multiply on the face of the earth and
3:01
Speaker 1: daughters were born to them, that the sons of God
3:04
Speaker 1: saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful, and
3:06
Speaker 1: they took wives from whomever they chose. So the sons
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Speaker 1: of God, that's the first time that wording appears in
3:13
Speaker 1: the Bible. And there are three primary views that Christians
3:16
Speaker 1: have held for the last two thousand years. One is
3:20
Speaker 1: the earliest view that we know of is that they
3:21
Speaker 1: were angelic beings who rebelled against God, married women and
3:25
Speaker 1: had children by them. And most people who hold that
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Speaker 1: view would say that the nepheline the giants, were the
3:30
Speaker 1: children from those unions. That was the earliest Christian view,
3:35
Speaker 1: is the earliest Jewish view as far as we know.
3:37
Speaker 1: And then around the beginning of the second century, another
3:41
Speaker 1: view came about from some Jewish rabbis, and it was
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Speaker 1: what we call the royalty view or the divine kings view.
3:49
Speaker 1: These were kings who viewed themselves as divine, or there
3:51
Speaker 1: were judges who viewed themselves as divine, and their children
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Speaker 1: the sons of those divine beings, the people who themselves
4:00
Speaker 1: as divine. The sons were taking wives into their harems,
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Speaker 1: and so the sin there would be like polygamy, and
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Speaker 1: that's why they were judged for that. It doesn't really
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Speaker 1: explain why they would have giant offspring. There are a
4:13
Speaker 1: lot of other problems of that as well. But the
4:15
Speaker 1: third view, and the one that's been dominant in church
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Speaker 1: history from about the time of Augustine, so late fourth century,
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Speaker 1: early fifth century up until about the last hundred years,
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Speaker 1: is that the sons of God were actually men from
4:27
Speaker 1: the line of Adam to Noah through Adam's son Seth.
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Speaker 1: So they call this the Seth I view. And then
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Speaker 1: the daughters of men were the women in the line
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Speaker 1: of Cain. And so what the sin there was according
4:40
Speaker 1: to this view is that the sons of God, the
4:43
Speaker 1: descendants of the son of the descendants of Seth, were
4:47
Speaker 1: marrying intermarrying to believer, marrying unbelievers, what the view says,
4:51
Speaker 1: and so that was the problem. So those are the
4:54
Speaker 1: three major views. And so what I do in the
4:57
Speaker 1: book is I lay out each case and I say,
4:59
Speaker 1: here's the argument for each one. Here's the arguments against it.
5:02
Speaker 1: And I think the first one I mentioned, the fallen
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Speaker 1: angel view, is the only one that holds up to
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Speaker 1: any scrutiny.
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Speaker 2: And the dominant portion of the book is devoted to
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Speaker 2: explaining that the angelic view right.
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Speaker 1: That's right. So I spend several chapters. I think there
5:17
Speaker 1: are four chapters that deal with the arguments for that
5:20
Speaker 1: position from scripture, both Old Testament, New Testament, also church history.
5:25
Speaker 1: And then there are five chapters dealing with the objections
5:28
Speaker 1: to that view. Because I want to make sure everybody's
5:31
Speaker 1: objections are heard. I've heard a lot of them, and
5:34
Speaker 1: if people read the book, they're probably going to think,
5:35
Speaker 1: I've never even heard of that one before. But I'm
5:37
Speaker 1: glad he included it because I'm wondering how he would
5:39
Speaker 1: explain it. But the other ones I think have fatal flaws.
5:43
Speaker 1: So the Sethite view and the Royalty Boot view, I
5:46
Speaker 1: think that the text rules them out pretty easily, and
5:50
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times the reason people adopt
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Speaker 1: those is they're uncomfortable with the fallen angel view. It's
5:55
Speaker 1: not because of what the text does or doesn't say.
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Speaker 1: It's the more of a gut feeling reaction to it
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Speaker 1: that they don't like it.
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Speaker 2: Well, you have mighty men of old in the King
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Speaker 2: James version. What came out of these unions with sons
6:11
Speaker 2: of God are called mighty men of old, men of renown.
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Speaker 2: Who are those mighty men? And who are those men
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Speaker 2: of renown?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So the beginning of verse four says the nepheline
6:21
Speaker 1: or the giants, that the word nephiline just means giants.
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Speaker 1: People will try to say, oh, it means fallen ones.
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Speaker 1: No it doesn't, and I go through that in the book.
6:28
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you.
6:29
Speaker 2: Do spend a lot of time on that question. By
6:31
Speaker 2: the way, what does that we call it nepheline from Nephal.
6:39
Speaker 1: Well, people will argue that it's from Nephal, but it's not.
6:43
Speaker 1: But it's not, it's not.
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Speaker 2: And I remember that you spend a lot of time
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Speaker 2: on that question.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it destroys a lot of the other arguments.
6:50
Speaker 1: People will will base their entire idea.
6:53
Speaker 2: But that's what I hear all the time.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all over the internet, it's on podcasts, it's
6:59
Speaker 1: all over. But you know where, you won't find it
7:01
Speaker 1: where Hebrew English lexicons. You won't find it in academic commentaries. Wow,
7:06
Speaker 1: you won't find scholar saying it. You'll find pop theology
7:09
Speaker 1: saying it. And it's not that it's not that they're
7:12
Speaker 1: always wrong. But if the linguistic scholars are saying, no,
7:15
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that, and the academic the people who
7:19
Speaker 1: make a living and then study this their whole career,
7:22
Speaker 1: are saying it doesn't mean that, but the language itself
7:25
Speaker 1: shows that it can't be from the verb nepal, because
7:27
Speaker 1: if you wanted to turn that into a participle, which
7:29
Speaker 1: is they're going to be using this verb as a
7:32
Speaker 1: noun it either because the way the Hebrew language works
7:35
Speaker 1: that it morphs the morphology so that the letters change,
7:40
Speaker 1: the vowels change a little bit. It becomes nophilim or
7:43
Speaker 1: neff fulim with a U, it does not become nephiline.
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Speaker 1: So the word nephiline is actually from an Aramaic noun, nephiel.
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Speaker 1: And when you make that plural and aramic, it's nepheline.
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Speaker 2: Not feel rather than the fall right, and feel.
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Speaker 1: Just means giant, okay. So nephiline is plural of giant.
8:04
Speaker 1: It means giants.
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Speaker 2: Giants, okay. So that kind of puts us on course
8:08
Speaker 2: here to begin the discussion.
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Speaker 1: And so that's who those mighty men were, because it
8:12
Speaker 1: tells us the nepheline the giants were on the earth
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Speaker 1: in those days. Now, remember Moses is writing this, So
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Speaker 1: he says, in those days talking about before the flood
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Speaker 1: and also afterwards. So before the flood and after the flood,
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Speaker 1: whenever the sons of God came into the daughters of
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Speaker 1: men and bought children. And these are the mighty men
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Speaker 1: of all men. Every now, so the offspring of those
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Speaker 1: unions were giants.
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Speaker 2: Now, Moses was in a really good position to know
8:35
Speaker 2: that history. Yes, having grown up in Egypt as part
8:39
Speaker 2: of a very important family in Egypt, and himself a
8:45
Speaker 2: notary of personality, he was very well known, very well respected.
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Speaker 2: Apparently I've read from secular history history that Moses actually
8:56
Speaker 2: was a general in the Egyptian army and is credited
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Speaker 2: with having fought a battle and won, and he was
9:04
Speaker 2: called a hero in battle. And you don't read that
9:08
Speaker 2: in the Bible, but you do find it in little
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Speaker 2: tidbits of history here and there. Whether true or not
9:15
Speaker 2: that we can discuss that. But the point is Moses
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Speaker 2: is writing from that perspective, and you sort of have
9:23
Speaker 2: to listen to him when he puts these things down.
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Speaker 1: Right, So Moses is if you think about when he's
9:28
Speaker 1: writing this, it's during the probably during the wilderness wandering,
9:32
Speaker 1: so it is, Yes, he spent forty days on Mount
9:35
Speaker 1: Sinai with the Lord, and that's where you get Exodus
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Speaker 1: twenty and some of the Law. But then a lot
9:40
Speaker 1: of Genesis and some of the other books are being
9:42
Speaker 1: written during the wilderness wandering that forty years. And they
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Speaker 1: sent the spies into the land before that, and they're
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Speaker 1: supposed to spy it out, and they come back talking
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Speaker 1: about giants, talking about nepheline in the land, and so
9:57
Speaker 1: Moses is talking about, here's how these people got here.
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Speaker 1: Let me take you back to Genesis Chap. I'll tell
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Speaker 1: you what happened before the flood. By the way, they
10:04
Speaker 1: were here before, they're also hereafter. And how did it happen, Well,
10:07
Speaker 1: it's whenever the sons of God did this activity. That's
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Speaker 1: how you get the nephilem on the earth. And so
10:12
Speaker 1: he gives us that. The other thing that it happens
10:15
Speaker 1: in that same context, and we often skip over verse
10:19
Speaker 1: three of Genesis six, where it talks about the Lord said,
10:21
Speaker 1: my spirit will not strive with man or dwell in
10:23
Speaker 1: man forever, for his indeed flesh and his days. She'll
10:25
Speaker 1: be one hundred and twenty years. Most think about where
10:28
Speaker 1: that this passage is positioned. It's right after Genesis five,
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Speaker 1: where Adam lives nine hundred and thirty years and he died.
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Speaker 1: Seth lives nine hundred and twelve years and he died.
10:37
Speaker 1: Skip down a little ways Methusalah nine hundred and sixty
10:39
Speaker 1: nine years and he died, And all of these guys
10:41
Speaker 1: over nine hundred years old if you're an Israelite wandering
10:44
Speaker 1: in the wilderness and hearing that for the first time,
10:46
Speaker 1: what question are you asking? How come we don't live
10:49
Speaker 1: so long? How come these guys used to live over
10:51
Speaker 1: nine hundred years? And then right after that you get
10:54
Speaker 1: this passage the Sons of God and the Nephilem, and
10:57
Speaker 1: in verse three, God says, your days are going to
10:59
Speaker 1: be a hundred twenty. And what you see from that
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Speaker 1: point on is a drop. You have Noah living nine
11:03
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years, next generation is six hundred. Then
11:06
Speaker 1: it's into the four hundreds, all the way down to Moses,
11:08
Speaker 1: who lived one hundred and twenty years. And since Moses,
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Speaker 1: how many people have lived one hundred and twenty years?
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Speaker 1: Just Jehoya to the priest one hundred and thirty years.
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Speaker 1: Other than that, nobody reaches that true. And so I
11:19
Speaker 1: think it was God's way of saying, look, I let
11:21
Speaker 1: you live. You're supposed to live forever, but you ate
11:24
Speaker 1: the fruit, you're gonna die, and now you're not going
11:27
Speaker 1: to live more than a thousand years. At least that's
11:28
Speaker 1: what we see in Genesis five. So he reduced their lifespans,
11:32
Speaker 1: and then look how wicked people become if we let
11:35
Speaker 1: them live nine hundred years. So now to curb that wickedness,
11:39
Speaker 1: you're dropping down to one twenty. And that's what we see.
11:43
Speaker 1: So I think that this topic explains that as well.
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Speaker 2: So Moses writes about the mighty men in which we're old,
11:52
Speaker 2: and of course Moses himself is a landmark figure, and
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Speaker 2: he was he was hated but respected, and I remember that,
12:06
Speaker 2: you know when you read about Moses in secular history
12:09
Speaker 2: or in Greco Roman histories, a touch on Moses occasionally
12:14
Speaker 2: and say things that did that really happen or not?
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Speaker 2: But he was a legendary figure, I think, even to
12:24
Speaker 2: people scattered around the world at his time, the powerful,
12:28
Speaker 2: powerful man. So when he makes this statement and he's
12:31
Speaker 2: talking about mighty men which were of old men of renown,
12:36
Speaker 2: he is pointing you to something for a reason here,
12:41
Speaker 2: and that's something is still being debated very assiduously.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it could be a reference to you know, you
12:50
Speaker 1: look at Greco Roman history, you look at the Greek
12:53
Speaker 1: gods on Olympus and the you know, the Romans kind
12:55
Speaker 1: of had the same gods, just give him different names,
12:59
Speaker 1: but you got Norsemithought and all sorts of different mythologies
13:02
Speaker 1: that have the gods coming down and having affairs with
13:06
Speaker 1: women and producing demigods, mighty men like Hercules and Theseus
13:12
Speaker 1: and some of these other ones. Even the Amazons according
13:17
Speaker 1: to some tradition, like the women who were some of
13:20
Speaker 1: them have them as demigods. And so you have these
13:23
Speaker 1: mighty beings that are talked about in these different cultures,
13:27
Speaker 1: and I think what those are. I call them echoes
13:30
Speaker 1: of reality, echoes of history. So it's like the mankind
13:35
Speaker 1: had a shared history up till Babbel. You know, in
13:38
Speaker 1: Genesis chapter eleven, they had the same they got off
13:41
Speaker 1: the arc and that those people, rather than scattering like
13:44
Speaker 1: they were supposed to, they went to the plane of
13:46
Speaker 1: Shinar and they're building the city in a tower, and
13:48
Speaker 1: so they had the same history at that point. But
13:50
Speaker 1: then when they scatter, they start to pass that history
13:53
Speaker 1: down generation after generation and it gets distorted over the years. Yea,
13:57
Speaker 1: but that kernel of truth is still there. So you
13:59
Speaker 1: have a whole bunch of things from Genesis one through
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Speaker 1: eleven that these ancient cultures share, even though they're distorted
14:06
Speaker 1: in many ways. So the creation of man from the
14:07
Speaker 1: dust of the ground, man being man dies or becomes
14:11
Speaker 1: sinful because of something to do with the tree and
14:13
Speaker 1: or a serpent. A worldwide flood is all over the place.
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Speaker 1: Hundreds of those legends have that, even Babbel legends. We
14:19
Speaker 1: found about twenty three of those. But the other thing
14:22
Speaker 1: that occurs in a lot of them is the gods
14:24
Speaker 1: coming down and meeting with women and producing giants or demigods.
14:28
Speaker 1: And so I think what we see there is echoes
14:32
Speaker 1: of the real history which is recorded for us in Genesis.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. What I would like to say at this point
14:37
Speaker 2: is not only when you're looking at Genesis six, not
14:40
Speaker 2: only do you suddenly come to the flood, the mighty men,
14:45
Speaker 2: which were of old men of renown, and then just
14:50
Speaker 2: very quickly we turned to the ungodly being destroyed in
14:54
Speaker 2: the flood and the godliest And it begins with these words,
14:58
Speaker 2: Noah found grace in the eyes to the Lord, which
15:01
Speaker 2: is the biggest turn of history you can possibly think of.
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Speaker 1: The incredible wickedness and fund grace.
15:07
Speaker 2: And Noah found grace. And I explicitly believe, you know,
15:13
Speaker 2: in the story of Noah and the Arc and the
15:16
Speaker 2: global flood.
15:18
Speaker 1: For the record, I do too. I work at the
15:20
Speaker 1: Arc as a matter of fact, I've done a little
15:23
Speaker 1: bit of research on that too.
15:24
Speaker 2: You've done a little bit of research on the flood,
15:26
Speaker 2: and you basically, and we can talk for a moment
15:30
Speaker 2: about that. You meet people, you talk to people, they
15:33
Speaker 2: have a lot of questions. What's the number one question
15:36
Speaker 2: about the flood and all those animals and that big
15:39
Speaker 2: boat and so forth.
15:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you hit on both of them right there.
15:42
Speaker 1: People will always ask, especially skeptical to last, but even
15:45
Speaker 1: Christians will wonder how could he fit all those animals
15:48
Speaker 1: on the arc, and how could you build something so big?
15:51
Speaker 1: And then once they go and visit the ark encounter,
15:53
Speaker 1: which I would encourage everybody to do, and of course
15:56
Speaker 1: the best part is my writing, but just to see it.
16:00
Speaker 1: When you see how large it is built to the
16:02
Speaker 1: biblical scale, and you begin to realize, oh, you could
16:05
Speaker 1: fit a lot on there. And when you realize what
16:08
Speaker 1: animals he actually had to bring on board the arc.
16:10
Speaker 1: It wasn't millions and millions like so many people throw
16:12
Speaker 1: out there. Once they start to think through this topic
16:16
Speaker 1: in a way that makes sense of the text, in
16:19
Speaker 1: a way that makes sense of reality, they realize this
16:22
Speaker 1: is feasible, this could happen. And one thing I don't
16:24
Speaker 1: remember if I said it at the beginning of the show,
16:26
Speaker 1: but I should probably mention it here if people recognize
16:29
Speaker 1: me from the Arc Encounter the Creation Museum as the
16:32
Speaker 1: content manager there. What I'm talking about today is my
16:35
Speaker 1: own personal view as a ministry answer. The Genesis doesn't
16:38
Speaker 1: take an official view on the sons of God. In
16:39
Speaker 1: the nepheline, we have a non position position. So I
16:44
Speaker 1: just don't want people to think that, Oh Tim speaking
16:46
Speaker 1: on behalf of the ministry at that point. Now, this
16:48
Speaker 1: is my own view and it's the right one. And
16:52
Speaker 1: there you go.
16:54
Speaker 2: I know you believe in the right view because you've
16:57
Speaker 2: got this book entitled Fallen, which is I have to say,
17:01
Speaker 2: some of the most detailed grammatical research I've ever seen.
17:06
Speaker 2: And by grammatical I'm looking at the sons of God
17:12
Speaker 2: and the way you have followed that through grammatical history
17:16
Speaker 2: to determine just exactly who these sons of God were.
17:19
Speaker 2: And it's a grammatical work of art.
17:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. So if you look at the rest of the Bible,
17:27
Speaker 1: you know that the wording there in Hebrews bene Elohim,
17:30
Speaker 1: it's just sons of God or sons of the gods,
17:32
Speaker 1: depending on how you want to translate Elochim. There it's
17:36
Speaker 1: used three times in job job one, job thirty eight seven,
17:41
Speaker 1: and we know for a fact in thirty eight seven
17:43
Speaker 1: it's referring to angelic beings God is talking about while
17:45
Speaker 1: he's creating the world, and he asked, job, were you
17:48
Speaker 1: there when this happened? Then he said, when the sons
17:50
Speaker 1: of God shout out for joy in the morning, starts
17:52
Speaker 1: saying together. Or maybe it's the other way around, but
17:56
Speaker 1: they're angelic beings watching what's taking place when God is creating.
18:00
Speaker 1: And then in job one, in job two, it's talking
18:02
Speaker 1: about when Satan came to prison, when the sons of
18:04
Speaker 1: God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan
18:06
Speaker 1: also came among them. They're clearly angelic beings in this passage,
18:12
Speaker 1: in all three of those passages. And so when you
18:15
Speaker 1: go back to Genesis and you see the only other
18:17
Speaker 1: time that that phrasing is used is in Genesis sixty
18:20
Speaker 1: two six' four and Also deuteronomy thirty two eight in
18:25
Speaker 1: The Dead Sea, scrolls and you see that mirrored in
18:27
Speaker 1: the septuagen it also used That it clearly is referring
18:30
Speaker 1: to angelic. Beings so to suddenly turn that into these
18:35
Speaker 1: are godly, Men, well The bible tells us that Only
18:38
Speaker 1: noah was righteous Before. God the rest of the people
18:40
Speaker 1: at that time weren't. Godly and if these men were so,
18:43
Speaker 1: godly like The sethite view, says why do they keep
18:46
Speaker 1: marrying ungodly? WOMEN i, mean sure that happens from time to,
18:49
Speaker 1: time but why would that continually? Happen and so why
18:54
Speaker 1: Would there's so many problems with That sethyite view from
18:57
Speaker 1: a grammatical textual. Perspective why if you look at those
19:02
Speaker 1: two lines like they, do the line From cain and
19:05
Speaker 1: the line From, seth why do they narrow it down
19:06
Speaker 1: to just Two? Adam and you've had a lot of
19:07
Speaker 1: other sons and daughters, too it says In genesis five to,
19:10
Speaker 1: Four so why only? Two and how come the line
19:13
Speaker 1: where they want the daughters to be from is the
19:16
Speaker 1: line that never mentioned. Daughters but the line With seth
19:19
Speaker 1: mentioned sons and daughters in every, generation and so it
19:23
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense of the immediate context at. All it
19:27
Speaker 1: has to use something from The New, testament this idea
19:30
Speaker 1: that believers are called sons Of god except for whenever
19:34
Speaker 1: The New testament speaks to that nearly every. Case it's something,
19:38
Speaker 1: future it's something that will be revealed when the sons
19:41
Speaker 1: Of god are, revealed As Roman date talks, about it's
19:43
Speaker 1: something that we're longing for when we're looking forward to.
19:46
Speaker 1: That so, positionally, yes we are sons Of god.
19:49
Speaker 2: Now but you Mentioned, job And job begins With satan
19:54
Speaker 2: and as some of his henchmen being instructed by The,
20:01
Speaker 2: lord who Presents job as a case case in, question
20:07
Speaker 2: and he, SAYS i would like for you to look
20:09
Speaker 2: at my Servant job down, here see what You and
20:13
Speaker 2: the whole book Of job is an instruction sort of
20:16
Speaker 2: on the interaction between the devil and humanity and Where,
20:21
Speaker 2: god the love Of, god interposes. Itself and in a,
20:26
Speaker 2: way that's the story we're looking at In. Genesis when
20:28
Speaker 2: the sons Of god came into the daughters of. Men
20:31
Speaker 2: god did not Destroy. Satan he did not destroy all
20:35
Speaker 2: those evil, ones but rather allowed them to continue in
20:38
Speaker 2: an interaction that lasted and is still. Lasting but they
20:43
Speaker 2: are going to be destroyed at some point in the.
20:44
Speaker 2: Future so we're part of that, long long.
20:46
Speaker 1: Story, Yeah And jude and Tewod peter both tell us
20:50
Speaker 1: that those the angels who, sinned and One peter three
20:53
Speaker 1: eighteen and twenty says it as. Well those angels that
20:55
Speaker 1: sind In noah's day are being held in chains of
20:57
Speaker 1: darkness until that day of. Judgment so they were allowed
21:00
Speaker 1: to run around and do their thing for a, while
21:03
Speaker 1: but eventually got said enough and those ones are incarcerated
21:08
Speaker 1: for until the. End but other ones are still roaming,
21:13
Speaker 1: around still doing their their deceptive, ways And god Allows
21:18
Speaker 1: that's just like he allows human beings to be, sinful
21:20
Speaker 1: to do wicked, things and they're in a sense they're
21:23
Speaker 1: heaping judgment upon, themselves but he's also patient and giving
21:26
Speaker 1: them time to turn, back to turn to.
21:28
Speaker 2: Him he allows them to, sin but there is still, grace,
21:31
Speaker 2: Yes and who can plumb the depths of the love Of.
21:35
Speaker 2: GOD i, mean it's it's, phenomenal, yeah and which is
21:39
Speaker 2: a central message of The, bible by the. Way but
21:41
Speaker 2: the evil that comes about in the, rebellion the original
21:48
Speaker 2: big rebellion that we read about and all of the
21:51
Speaker 2: the subsequent rebellions down through The Old testament and into
21:55
Speaker 2: The new really set the. Scene and there's always a
22:04
Speaker 2: side story out, here which is kind of What i'm
22:07
Speaker 2: interested in because WHEN i read your, BOOK i couldn't
22:09
Speaker 2: help thinking but think about the video productions that are
22:16
Speaker 2: going on these, days, DVDs pro television programs on. Supernatural
22:23
Speaker 2: everybody's kind of in love with the. Supernatural wh the's hunting,
22:26
Speaker 2: ghosts Hunting, bigfoot looking up in the sky to see
22:30
Speaker 2: if we can find supernatural beings coming down and landing
22:33
Speaker 2: on planet. Earths and they're all looking for a. Savior
22:37
Speaker 2: they want something to come down and kind of save.
22:39
Speaker 2: Mankind and then when you go to the sci fi,
22:43
Speaker 2: world science fiction, movies one after another after, another all
22:48
Speaker 2: have that sub theme of man being saved by superior
22:53
Speaker 2: technology or. Whatever and you have a hero or a
22:57
Speaker 2: group of, heroes and people love. That and so you
23:02
Speaker 2: go back to The. Bible you look at That bible
23:04
Speaker 2: story and you, say, wow. Heroes Job and by the,
23:10
Speaker 2: Way job is one of my. Heroes he went through
23:13
Speaker 2: that And god used him to illustrate a particular point
23:18
Speaker 2: about his. Grace but it's intermixed with the story of
23:23
Speaker 2: The sons Of, god count cole mingling with the daughters Of.
23:28
Speaker 2: Men that whole story it kind of filters through The
23:31
Speaker 2: Old testament into The new and SO i notice here
23:35
Speaker 2: in chapter eight you have The Old testament Fallen angel,
23:39
Speaker 2: view The New, Testament Ancient jewish the support for the
23:44
Speaker 2: Fallen angel, view and Early christian support for the Fallen angel.
23:49
Speaker 2: View so this story is kind of traceable down through.
23:52
Speaker 1: History it, Is and SO i included for each of the,
23:55
Speaker 1: VIEWS i gave the best arguments that were out there
23:58
Speaker 1: for the, view and THEN i critiqued the. Views and
24:02
Speaker 1: so when it came to the Fallen angel of, you
24:03
Speaker 1: there are four chapters worth of evidence or arguments for the.
24:08
Speaker 1: Position you Have Old testament. ARGUMENTS i gave a few,
24:11
Speaker 1: already but there's one other THAT i didn't. Mention In
24:13
Speaker 1: daniel three twenty, five you mentioned one of your, heroes
24:15
Speaker 1: Job daniel's one of my, heroes and so you've Got
24:18
Speaker 1: shadrack mechekind of been go thrown into the fiery. Furnace
24:21
Speaker 1: and then The neva sees a fourth one who looks
24:24
Speaker 1: like the son Of god or a son of the,
24:26
Speaker 1: gods depending on your translation The. Aramaic that's one section
24:30
Speaker 1: Of daniel that's actually written In, aramic Not. Greek it's
24:32
Speaker 1: Bar elaheen is the word that's he's. There it's The
24:36
Speaker 1: aramic equivalent of Bene. Eloheim so and then he says
24:41
Speaker 1: three verses, later For god has sent his angel to rescue.
24:46
Speaker 1: Them So nevzer equates the sons Of god the Bar
24:52
Speaker 1: elahen Or Bene eloheim with. Angels so even in that,
24:56
Speaker 1: passage that mindset for The, HEBREWS i don't know that
25:01
Speaker 1: they're not A, hebrew but A hebrew is writing. That
25:06
Speaker 1: so that is the position of The jewish people in
25:10
Speaker 1: The Old. Testament we know from the ancient intertestamental writings
25:13
Speaker 1: all not just The book Of, enoch but and some
25:17
Speaker 1: of these other. Ones but there are a whole bunch
25:19
Speaker 1: of ancient intertestmental writings that all had this, view and
25:23
Speaker 1: whenever they talked about, it was the fallen angel. View
25:26
Speaker 1: the Early church fathers up until about the third, century
25:30
Speaker 1: middle of the third century that they had this view as.
25:32
Speaker 2: Well, well let me run something past you here that
25:36
Speaker 2: just happened to come into my mind while you were.
25:39
Speaker 2: Talking and it may or may not be question a
25:46
Speaker 2: suitable topic to fit into this. Discussion but we read
25:50
Speaker 2: about principalities and powers and rulers of darkness in heavenly
25:55
Speaker 2: places in The New. Testament in other, words there's still
25:58
Speaker 2: a large continue those negative forces out, there and they're,
26:03
Speaker 2: very very, busy and where do they fit in this.
26:07
Speaker 1: DISCUSSION i think that's a great, question and it's one
26:09
Speaker 1: thing THAT i WISH i would have elaborated on more
26:12
Speaker 1: in the. Book in, Fact i've thought about revising adding
26:14
Speaker 1: one chapter or an append appendix on this one. Thing
26:20
Speaker 1: when we have an exhibit at The Creation museum Called Biblical,
26:23
Speaker 1: authority and one of the things we do in that
26:25
Speaker 1: we're moving you through biblical history and showing you some
26:27
Speaker 1: of the archaeological. Evidence but one of the themes THAT
26:30
Speaker 1: i traced throughout The bible is the way that The
26:34
Speaker 1: god of Scripture, yahweh The, creator you, know the one True,
26:39
Speaker 1: god demonstrates his authority and his power over not just the,
26:43
Speaker 1: nations not just kings and, rulers but also the gods
26:47
Speaker 1: of those. Nations so you look At exodus twelve, twelve And,
26:49
Speaker 1: god So i'm going to execute my judgment against the
26:51
Speaker 1: gods Of. Egypt all ten of those. Plagues we're an
26:55
Speaker 1: attack on The egyptian gods who are supposed to be
26:58
Speaker 1: protecting the, children who are supposed to be, protecting are
27:01
Speaker 1: supposed to be The Sun, God well it goes dark
27:03
Speaker 1: for three. Days who are the you, know all of
27:05
Speaker 1: these different gods and What, god what The True god
27:09
Speaker 1: is showing is they can't stop. Me i'm going to
27:12
Speaker 1: systematically take out each one of. Them but it wasn't
27:15
Speaker 1: Just egypt that. Happened when they go into the land Of.
27:17
Speaker 1: Canaan think about what happened With. Dagon when The philistines
27:20
Speaker 1: take The ark of The, Covenant dagon falls down on
27:23
Speaker 1: his face right before. It they prop him back. Up
27:25
Speaker 1: the next morning he's fallen down. Again this time his
27:27
Speaker 1: arm's broken off, right and they, said we need to
27:29
Speaker 1: get him, out get this arc out of, here and
27:32
Speaker 1: so over and over and over again in The Old,
27:34
Speaker 1: testament ANDed in The new you see How, yahweh the
27:38
Speaker 1: One True god is showing his power over the, nations
27:42
Speaker 1: over the people's and over the gods of those. Nations
27:45
Speaker 1: who are these principalities and powers who are supposed to
27:48
Speaker 1: Be when you Read dudonomy thirty, Two god said that
27:53
Speaker 1: he gave them the sons Of. God, dude only thirty
27:55
Speaker 1: two eight talks About and there's a there's a variant
27:59
Speaker 1: there in The hebrew where maseratic text has The sons
28:02
Speaker 1: Of israel The Dead Sea, scrolls which predate it by
28:05
Speaker 1: over a thousand. Years the septuagen always have sons Of,
28:08
Speaker 1: god the or angels Of. God At, Babble god divided
28:13
Speaker 1: the nations up and he placed them under the authority
28:16
Speaker 1: of the sons Of. God and they were supposed to rule,
28:18
Speaker 1: well they're supposed to be, just they were supposed to
28:20
Speaker 1: be caring for the, oppressed but they. Didn't, instead they
28:25
Speaker 1: abuse their. Authority and if you Read psalmiti, two you
28:27
Speaker 1: read about that judgment That god pronounces on them and
28:31
Speaker 1: says THAT i said you are. Gods that's the line
28:35
Speaker 1: That jesus quotes In john ten and he's Quoting psalmaiti. Two,
28:39
Speaker 1: nevertheless you will. Fall you will die like, men and
28:42
Speaker 1: fall like any one of the. Princes and so he
28:46
Speaker 1: In psalmaiti two known of That Divine council passage that
28:51
Speaker 1: some people might be familiar, with where it's That god
28:53
Speaker 1: takes a stand in The divine. Council he judges among the.
28:57
Speaker 1: Gods and a lot of times people will try to
28:59
Speaker 1: make that about judges In israel or about other. Things
29:03
Speaker 1: that's not what's going on. There and it's a judgment
29:06
Speaker 1: on these angelic, beings these powers that The bible calls.
29:11
Speaker 1: Gods they're not, eternal they're not omnipotent or. Anything they're
29:15
Speaker 1: not The One True, god but they're angelic, beings principalities
29:19
Speaker 1: and powers That god gave them an opportunity and they blew,
29:23
Speaker 1: it and so he announced the judgment. There and then
29:27
Speaker 1: you see the same sort of thing going on in
29:28
Speaker 1: The New testament When paul And, silas what do they?
29:32
Speaker 1: Think They're zeus And hermes Or. Hermesan so you still
29:35
Speaker 1: have this interaction with these pagan gods going, on And
29:39
Speaker 1: god demonstrates his authority over.
29:41
Speaker 2: Them you mentioned here the divine, council but in the
29:45
Speaker 2: very next breath you also talk about, polytheism and you're
29:50
Speaker 2: suggesting that's a divine council should not be in any
29:54
Speaker 2: way interpreted as being.
29:55
Speaker 1: Polytheistic, Right, Yeah so polytheism if you think of more
30:00
Speaker 1: like The Greek olympian, gods they're all kind of on
30:04
Speaker 1: the same level. There so they're just a multitude of
30:08
Speaker 1: gods that, exist and they're all on the same. Level
30:10
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, IS i Think Michael heiser uses
30:16
Speaker 1: this term mono. Yahwism there's one, true all Powerful. God he's,
30:19
Speaker 1: eternal he's the, creator and he'd made everything. Else and
30:23
Speaker 1: so these other quote unquote gods lowercase g if you,
30:26
Speaker 1: will they're angelic. Beings but The bible is not afraid
30:29
Speaker 1: to call them. Gods in, fact you look at the,
30:31
Speaker 1: commandments you shall have no other gods before, me, right
30:35
Speaker 1: and so over and over again it uses that. Terminology
30:39
Speaker 1: and it's JUST i think a lot of times in The,
30:41
Speaker 1: west As, christians we get nervous about, that, like, well,
30:43
Speaker 1: no there's only there's only One, god and there's one
30:46
Speaker 1: god capital g, true, yes, true but the other. One
30:50
Speaker 1: The bible still refers to these other entities as, gods
30:53
Speaker 1: AND i don't think we need to be afraid of.
30:55
Speaker 1: That it's just it's just what The bible. Says but
30:58
Speaker 1: let's be clear about. It one all, powerful all, knowing Eternal.
31:03
Speaker 1: God his name is. Yahweh or maybe that's not actually
31:07
Speaker 1: pronouncing it, right it's we don't know if that's for
31:10
Speaker 1: sure the right way to pronounce. It but these other
31:12
Speaker 1: ones are they're not, eternal they're not all, powerful and
31:16
Speaker 1: the ones who, rebel they're going to be judged.
31:18
Speaker 2: Now from the perspective of your, book it would seem
31:23
Speaker 2: that you take the view that there was a rebellion
31:27
Speaker 2: and That god has a very, systematic but to, us
31:31
Speaker 2: a very long term program of dealing with this. Rebellion
31:36
Speaker 2: and of course the Whole bible is about the rebellion
31:39
Speaker 2: and about the solution to the, problem and the new
31:43
Speaker 2: heavens and the new earths at the end of the
31:45
Speaker 2: of the. BOOK i love that part me.
31:47
Speaker 1: TOO i can't.
31:48
Speaker 2: Wait but in a way that your book is dealing
31:54
Speaker 2: with the rebellion from a perspective THAT i think most
31:57
Speaker 2: people don't.
31:58
Speaker 1: Take, YEAH i think what we've done In i'm going
32:02
Speaker 1: to use this term. Again But western theology and maybe
32:04
Speaker 1: The east does this as. Well but especially since the
32:07
Speaker 1: days of The, reformation we tend to look At genesis.
32:09
Speaker 1: Three we call it the, fall and it clearly was
32:12
Speaker 1: the fall Of. Man BUT i think what you would
32:14
Speaker 1: see with Ancient, hebrews they wouldn't have just a singular,
32:18
Speaker 1: fall you, know not everything hinges On genesis. Three you
32:20
Speaker 1: also Have genesis. Six there's another rebellion, there and you
32:23
Speaker 1: Have genesis. Eleven you have another rebellion. There and those
32:26
Speaker 1: three rebellions And genesis one three eleven kind of shaped their,
32:30
Speaker 1: worldview whereas what we do because of What paul talked
32:33
Speaker 1: about In romans five and what he talks about One corinthians,
32:36
Speaker 1: fifteen we go back to the First adam and his,
32:39
Speaker 1: fall and of course our need for, salvation which that's
32:42
Speaker 1: extremely important and absolutely we should talk about, that but
32:46
Speaker 1: we tend to minimize the other two and we don't
32:49
Speaker 1: realize how much that shaped the worldview of the biblical.
32:53
Speaker 2: Writers now let's turn to another. Story everybody's familiar With, golias.
32:59
Speaker 1: Okay And. DAVID i get nervous around people Named david a.
33:04
Speaker 1: Podcast people can't see, me But i'm about six foot,
33:07
Speaker 1: nine so When i'm Around DAVID'S i get.
33:08
Speaker 2: Nervous all, RIGHT i understand from the opposite point of,
33:14
Speaker 2: View david is more than a. Hero he's an incredibly
33:20
Speaker 2: complex human, being incredibly. Smart he was used Of god
33:26
Speaker 2: to do a number of different. Things but everybody thinks
33:29
Speaker 2: About david And goliath and what was goliath, Nepheline and
33:36
Speaker 2: let's talk about that question and about that confrontation Between
33:39
Speaker 2: david And goliath and what it really.
33:41
Speaker 1: Means, yeah it is WHEN i SAY i get. Nervous
33:45
Speaker 1: BUT i said that a little bit tongue in. Cheek
33:46
Speaker 1: it's one of my favorite. Passages So goliath is in
33:50
Speaker 1: first Ame i. Seventeen he's not technically called a giant
33:53
Speaker 1: there it does describe how his size and his armaments and,
33:56
Speaker 1: everything but he has called a giant later on In
33:59
Speaker 1: chronicles it refers to him the descendant of the giant
34:04
Speaker 1: or son of the. Giant that back To, goliath but he.
34:09
Speaker 1: Is if you think about In joshua, eleven you Have
34:13
Speaker 1: joshua driving out or or wiping out The amorites and
34:18
Speaker 1: then these other giant. Clans The anachem it, says it tells.
34:21
Speaker 1: US i think it's verse twenty one That joshua drove
34:23
Speaker 1: out The anachema throughout the land except for In, Gaza,
34:27
Speaker 1: gath And. Ashdod so those three cities the giants. Remained,
34:31
Speaker 1: well what do we read a few hundred years? Later
34:33
Speaker 1: who's still In? Gath that's Where goliath is.
34:35
Speaker 2: From that's where he.
34:36
Speaker 1: Is so he would be one of the he would
34:38
Speaker 1: be a descendant of The. Anachem, yes he's A philistine,
34:41
Speaker 1: nationally but you know his, genealogy you go back through
34:45
Speaker 1: that he's going to be part of The anachem and
34:46
Speaker 1: then of course numbers thirteen to thirty three tells us
34:49
Speaker 1: the anachem er of The, nephelene so he is he
34:52
Speaker 1: would be one of the.
34:53
Speaker 2: Nepheline, okay now having said that, story that's, so what
34:58
Speaker 2: is the real import of The david And goliath story
35:03
Speaker 2: set on the background of your?
35:05
Speaker 1: Book, WELL i mean there's a lot to. That so you,
35:10
Speaker 1: have of Course, david who is Trusting. God and IF
35:13
Speaker 1: i mentioned earlier about The yahweh versus the gods of the.
35:16
Speaker 1: Nations even in that, confrontation you know That goliath boasts
35:20
Speaker 1: and says he's going to feed him to the, bird
35:22
Speaker 1: or he's just he's my, dog coming with, sticks And david, says,
35:26
Speaker 1: no you've come against The god Of. Israel and this
35:29
Speaker 1: day people are going to know who the True god
35:31
Speaker 1: is and He so you see that confrontation even there
35:34
Speaker 1: between the one True god and these false gods That goliath,
35:38
Speaker 1: serves and of Course david wins that. Battle he's the
35:41
Speaker 1: one who trusts In. God and So god is showing
35:44
Speaker 1: how he is preserving and protecting his chosen, people The,
35:48
Speaker 1: israelites so that they can eventually bring The messiah. About
35:53
Speaker 1: eventually they can they can provide the scriptures for us
35:57
Speaker 1: Because god used them, to As romans three talked about
36:00
Speaker 1: record the oracles Of god and so all of that
36:03
Speaker 1: is so important to the rest of biblical. History What
36:07
Speaker 1: david is doing, there and of course he's going to
36:08
Speaker 1: be the king Of israel After saul. Dies AFTER, ISO
36:14
Speaker 1: a lot of people guess That david wasn't the second
36:16
Speaker 1: king Of, Israel he's the. Third saul was the first
36:18
Speaker 1: that Sawtun is Ruled israel for two. Years, Well, david
36:21
Speaker 1: it was Ruling. Judah but he's the first, one second
36:25
Speaker 1: one to take it for a.
36:25
Speaker 2: While and you, know in a kind of a lightheard,
36:28
Speaker 2: way there is a high tech aspect to that battle
36:32
Speaker 2: Because goliath had all these incredibly heavy, weapons and then
36:38
Speaker 2: he represents brute. Force david as high. Tech he's got
36:42
Speaker 2: a sling and if you know anything about, slings and
36:45
Speaker 2: of Course david the shepherd would protect his flock from
36:48
Speaker 2: wolves with his, sling and he got to. Be and
36:52
Speaker 2: by the, way there are slingers who are incredibly. Accurate in,
36:56
Speaker 2: fact The roman army is sling shots.
36:58
Speaker 1: Well AND i think people in our. Misunderstand they think
37:01
Speaker 1: these little steel. Bebies, no, no, no if you can see,
37:05
Speaker 1: them if you go to the museum in The, bible
37:06
Speaker 1: they have a pile of. These if you go To,
37:07
Speaker 1: israel you can see. Them these things are almost the
37:09
Speaker 1: size of tennis. Balls, yeah like somewhere between golf ball
37:11
Speaker 1: and tennis ball. Size if you get hit by one of,
37:14
Speaker 1: those going big of the, sling you can throw that
37:16
Speaker 1: about one hundred and twenty to one hundred and forty
37:17
Speaker 1: miles an. Hour you get hit with one of, those
37:19
Speaker 1: you're gonna have a bad day and maybe your last.
37:21
Speaker 2: Day it'll be your, last as it was For. Yeah
37:26
Speaker 2: and So, david the man of Whom god is backing
37:32
Speaker 2: in this, contest has a lot of aspects that kind
37:36
Speaker 2: of come down to. Us and you know they we
37:39
Speaker 2: have echoes of the battle Of david And goliath going
37:42
Speaker 2: on even today and on into the, tribulation And david
37:48
Speaker 2: won and he always. Will but again there's the. Giant
37:55
Speaker 2: there were giants and all in those days and also after.
37:58
Speaker 2: That so how big was goth and what did he
38:01
Speaker 2: come what lineage did they come?
38:03
Speaker 1: From, yeah so he so it says he's a, philistine
38:06
Speaker 1: but AS i mentioned before he is of The, anachem
38:09
Speaker 1: that that's. Where, yeah they're still From, Gaza gath And.
38:12
Speaker 1: Ashdod The anachem were still there In judges Or joshua.
38:15
Speaker 1: Eleven so The anachem are From, anak and it talked
38:21
Speaker 1: About arba is is mentioned in several places In joshua And.
38:26
Speaker 1: Judges he was the greatest of The. Anachem SO i
38:29
Speaker 1: don't know if that if he's the forefather of The.
38:31
Speaker 1: Anakin we don't know who he. Is but every time
38:32
Speaker 1: his name is, mentioned whether as his name or as
38:35
Speaker 1: part of the city The Kuriot, arba it tells us
38:38
Speaker 1: something else about. Him it will always have a parenthetical after.
38:42
Speaker 1: It so it's like The israelites The hebrews knew who that,
38:45
Speaker 1: was and he was a prominent. Figure we don't know
38:47
Speaker 1: today Who arba was other than the mightiest or the
38:51
Speaker 1: first of The. Anachem we're not. Sure so that's Where
38:55
Speaker 1: goliath came. From that was. His and as far as
38:58
Speaker 1: how big was, He SO i have a whole chapter
39:01
Speaker 1: in the book about how tall were the. Nepheline you,
39:03
Speaker 1: know you see these pictures on the internet were skeletons
39:07
Speaker 1: of ten twenty thirty forty fifty feet. Tall AND i
39:11
Speaker 1: roll my eyes at that a little, bit not BECAUSE
39:15
Speaker 1: i Doubt god's power or anything like. That it's there are,
39:18
Speaker 1: limits as far as we know to the to. Size
39:24
Speaker 1: so for, Example i'm let's use me and. Og So
39:30
Speaker 1: ogg is the last of the. Reference he's the king
39:33
Speaker 1: that is killed In deuteronomy two that he's, mentioned and
39:36
Speaker 1: it says that his bedstead was an iron, bedstead and
39:39
Speaker 1: indeed it was nine cubits by four, cubits so roughly
39:42
Speaker 1: thirteen and a half feet long by six feet. Wide
39:45
Speaker 1: we don't know if he was as tall as his
39:47
Speaker 1: bed was, long but let's assume that for the sake of,
39:49
Speaker 1: argument that would make him thirteen and a half feet,
39:51
Speaker 1: tall which is exactly twice my. Height i'm six to. Nine.
39:55
Speaker 2: Wow and by the, way, folks WHEN i, stand.
40:00
Speaker 1: You're not six foot.
40:01
Speaker 2: Nine WHEN i stand beside, HIM i disappear.
40:05
Speaker 1: Well and when the, Last i'll become, first and first
40:07
Speaker 1: i'll be. Last i'm gonna have, hair and you're gonna be.
40:09
Speaker 1: Tall how's? That?
40:10
Speaker 2: So?
40:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, well so my, point he's exactly twice my. Height
40:15
Speaker 1: i'm two hundred and thirty. Pounds so in order for
40:19
Speaker 1: a person to be built to my dimensions is the
40:23
Speaker 1: same AS i. Am if you double my, height he
40:26
Speaker 1: doesn't become four hundred and sixty. Pounds you have to
40:29
Speaker 1: multiply that by a figure of. Eight he becomes one
40:32
Speaker 1: eight and twenty. Pounds, wow because you have to double the,
40:35
Speaker 1: width you have doubled the length and the. Depth so
40:40
Speaker 1: you have to multiply that by eight eight. Times so
40:43
Speaker 1: if you're gonna say that somebody's thirteen and a half
40:45
Speaker 1: feet tall at my, size Which i'm fairly thin, now
40:49
Speaker 1: THANKFULLY i used to be over two fifty but and.
40:52
Speaker 1: More but eighteen hundred, pounds imagine a heart pumping that.
40:57
Speaker 1: Long imagine human bones trying to handle that. Weight, now
41:01
Speaker 1: the compressive strength of bone where you're just putting waiting straight,
41:04
Speaker 1: down you can hold that. Weight but the ten style
41:07
Speaker 1: strengths are when you're moving and you're, twisting bone is
41:10
Speaker 1: not really good at. That and when you're talking about
41:14
Speaker 1: that much, weight it's going to create all sorts of.
41:16
Speaker 1: Problems SO i think there is an upper. LIMIT i
41:18
Speaker 1: THINK i think thirteen and a half is probably too.
41:20
Speaker 1: Tall if you look at What goliath is talked about
41:24
Speaker 1: in some of the, text he's about nine foot. Nine
41:27
Speaker 1: you look at some of the Ancient egyptian records and
41:29
Speaker 1: even some of their, ARTWORK i think it puts them
41:32
Speaker 1: in like the eight to ten foot. Range you, know
41:34
Speaker 1: it talked about These The egyptians had a document that
41:37
Speaker 1: talked about THE i think it's about The, shasu who
41:41
Speaker 1: it says they were from they were it would translate
41:46
Speaker 1: to about eight foot ten from nose to. Toe and
41:49
Speaker 1: so that's something Ancient egyptian talking.
41:51
Speaker 2: About, Well i'm going to bring up another, SUBJECT i,
41:53
Speaker 2: mean which it really kind of fits, here But genesis,
41:56
Speaker 2: fourteen we have A i'm coming up against four gentile
42:01
Speaker 2: kings and they make war with. Him and we won't
42:06
Speaker 2: talk about the, kings but you drop down To genesis
42:10
Speaker 2: fourteen to. Five you have the Repi, emes The, zuzims
42:16
Speaker 2: the a Memes, uh and a couple of other species
42:21
Speaker 2: or or the line plans of. Giants and would these
42:27
Speaker 2: how would these fit With? Goliath we're talking to About
42:30
Speaker 2: goliath right.
42:31
Speaker 1: Now, Yeah so those those individuals clans are mentioned, again
42:34
Speaker 1: several of them are mentioned In deuteronomy two and. Three
42:38
Speaker 1: so the e mem dwelt in the land And god,
42:41
Speaker 1: says but he drove them. Out they were people as
42:43
Speaker 1: great and as tall as The, anachem so again he's
42:46
Speaker 1: calling them. Giants The zuzim are mentioned, there but they're
42:51
Speaker 1: called The zamzumm And gudonomy two and three again people
42:55
Speaker 1: great and tall as The. Anachem they were driven, out
42:58
Speaker 1: and the whoreights are mentioned in places and never specifically
43:02
Speaker 1: calls them, giants but they're always mentioned in the same.
43:03
Speaker 1: CONTEXT i think they probably. Were and then The amrits
43:07
Speaker 1: are also considered to be. Giants they're called that In
43:10
Speaker 1: amos way back in the book Of amos talks about.
43:13
Speaker 1: Them their height was like the height of the oak,
43:15
Speaker 1: tree you, know that kind of, thing that they're.
43:17
Speaker 2: Giants SO i guess my point for bringing this up
43:20
Speaker 2: is With david And, goliath you're talking about a metaphor
43:25
Speaker 2: Of israel coming against this giant. Force and again you've
43:30
Speaker 2: Made genesis Fourteen abram is going up against forces and
43:36
Speaker 2: even giant. Forces and the giant forces we think of
43:39
Speaker 2: as non human or somehow connected with something a little bit,
43:45
Speaker 2: powerful something that you would hate to take on as
43:48
Speaker 2: a mere human. Being these people have got special powers
43:53
Speaker 2: and special strengths put it that. Way and so you
43:58
Speaker 2: have these, battles the credible, battles what but what do
44:02
Speaker 2: they represent? Metaphorically you, know because these GIANTS i think
44:06
Speaker 2: are a metaphor for the forces Of satan in a.
44:09
Speaker 1: Way, Well i'm sure they can be used that way
44:12
Speaker 1: if we were. TO i. DON'T i don't. KNOW i
44:15
Speaker 1: know you're not spiritualizing the. Text you because you believe
44:18
Speaker 1: there were real giants, there WHICH i do. Too and
44:20
Speaker 1: so in the, sense like With, david we can talk
44:23
Speaker 1: about how we know when we depend on The, lord
44:26
Speaker 1: when we're trusting in, him he he is faithful to
44:32
Speaker 1: fulfill his. Promises that doesn't always mean that we're going
44:34
Speaker 1: to win every single battle, physically that we're going to
44:37
Speaker 1: make our mortgage payment on, time we're going to do.
44:39
Speaker 1: Whatever it doesn't it. Doesn't god doesn't promise all those
44:42
Speaker 1: things to. Us but he does guarantee that those who
44:46
Speaker 1: have trusted In Him tho's a place there faith In
44:48
Speaker 1: christ are going to be raised to. Life at the last,
44:51
Speaker 1: Day we're going to Be we're going to dwell With him,
44:54
Speaker 1: eternally and there will be no more, tears no more,
44:56
Speaker 1: sorrow no more. Pain that's that New heaven And New
44:57
Speaker 1: earth you were talking, About, yes and so all of
45:01
Speaker 1: those things are promises to. Us and also even in
45:04
Speaker 1: this life we can have. Joy we can have peace
45:07
Speaker 1: of The, lord and peace from The, lord peace with The.
45:10
Speaker 1: Lord all three of those nagers are so. Important and
45:14
Speaker 1: SO i think even in the midst of whatever this
45:16
Speaker 1: world throws at, us no matter how dark it, gets
45:21
Speaker 1: we can trust that, one Our, savior has already been through,
45:24
Speaker 1: it And he's done it all without, sin and he
45:29
Speaker 1: gives us The Holy spirit to empower us to live godly,
45:32
Speaker 1: lives and we can remain faithful to The lord during.
45:34
Speaker 2: That now you're chapter ten, here the fallen angel view
45:40
Speaker 2: Is jewish Given jewish support in chapter, eleven the fallen
45:45
Speaker 2: angel view Early christian support coming on into The christian
45:51
Speaker 2: era of what has been the history of belief in
45:54
Speaker 2: the fallen ones fallen.
45:55
Speaker 1: Angels, yeah so this, topic the early church, fathers anybody
45:59
Speaker 1: who who wrote on the topic for the first two
46:01
Speaker 1: centuries held to the fallen angel. View they all acknowledged
46:05
Speaker 1: that these were angels who came, down married women and had,
46:08
Speaker 1: children and the giants were from. Them so that is
46:11
Speaker 1: found in multiple early church father's writing it's not until
46:15
Speaker 1: about the three. HUNDREDS i think there's one in the
46:18
Speaker 1: middle of the second middle of the two. Hundreds but
46:20
Speaker 1: then around the three hundreds you started to see the
46:22
Speaker 1: shift to more of an allegorical. Interpretation and that's what
46:25
Speaker 1: happened with The jewish writers in the beginning of the second.
46:27
Speaker 1: Century they started to adopt an allegorical approach and suddenly
46:31
Speaker 1: it was which is kind of ironic because they will
46:34
Speaker 1: accuse the people like me who hold to the fallen angel.
46:38
Speaker 1: View they, say, oh you're borrowing From greek. Mythology actually
46:42
Speaker 1: they're the ones borrowing from The. Greeks the allegorical approach
46:45
Speaker 1: came from The. Greeks and do you know why it
46:46
Speaker 1: was developed the philosophers back in the fifth and sixth CENTURIES.
46:51
Speaker 1: Bc The greek people Loved homer And hesiod and all
46:57
Speaker 1: these myths that they. Had you, know you think of
47:00
Speaker 1: the oddists that you think Of, zeus but when you
47:04
Speaker 1: started to get to more of a philosophical, age you
47:06
Speaker 1: think about what the gods were. Doing zeus is Leaving
47:10
Speaker 1: olympus to come down and have affairs with, women and
47:13
Speaker 1: the gods are pretty foul. Characters when you really start
47:16
Speaker 1: to think about. It and so a way to rescue those,
47:20
Speaker 1: writings rather than just dispose them and throw them on
47:23
Speaker 1: the ash heap of, history was to allegorize. Them say, no, no, No
47:27
Speaker 1: zeus just represents the, wind or he represents some. Force
47:31
Speaker 1: and so they started to come up with different. Meanings
47:34
Speaker 1: that's what the word allegory is, like other, wording other,
47:39
Speaker 1: interpretation and so they started to come up with a
47:42
Speaker 1: different way to interpret the text in a way that
47:45
Speaker 1: was not consistent with what the word actually. Means and
47:47
Speaker 1: then that became popular down In, alexandria which is The
47:50
Speaker 1: greek center of learning for some time Besides. Athens and
47:54
Speaker 1: if you look at where all the allegory comes from
47:56
Speaker 1: in The jewish, writings you Have philo From, alexandria and
47:59
Speaker 1: then from a lot of The christian. Writing it also
48:02
Speaker 1: flowed out Of. Alexandria so you have this allegorical approach
48:06
Speaker 1: to scripture where the words don't actually mean what we
48:09
Speaker 1: think they, mean they mean something. Else and that's what
48:11
Speaker 1: happened with The sons Of god and the. Nephline it
48:14
Speaker 1: was it no longer is exactly what we think it.
48:16
Speaker 1: Means it has to be something else because we don't
48:19
Speaker 1: like what it, says.
48:21
Speaker 2: And what does it really. Say what it really.
48:23
Speaker 1: Says is that there were angels who rebelled Against god
48:26
Speaker 1: and they had children with, women and those children in
48:30
Speaker 1: the offspring were giants for whatever. Reason we don't know
48:33
Speaker 1: why an angel and human coming together that way would
48:36
Speaker 1: create GIANTS' i don't know THE dna involved there, Exactly but.
48:41
Speaker 2: You do hold to the veracity of these these, narratives.
48:46
Speaker 1: Right and even IF i know sometimes people will, say,
48:48
Speaker 1: well but that's why Would god allow? That that's just. Disgusting,
48:51
Speaker 1: well first of, All god allows a lot of things
48:55
Speaker 1: that are evil to, Happen but the whole idea of that's.
48:58
Speaker 1: Disgusting it can't. Happen think OF i think people have
49:02
Speaker 1: the wrong idea of what fallen angels. Are you, know
49:06
Speaker 1: we tend to think of more of like a horned
49:09
Speaker 1: toady wardy kind of creature that you, know would scary
49:13
Speaker 1: to death of you saw, it or something like. That
49:14
Speaker 1: but if there was one who was coming to try
49:16
Speaker 1: to deceive, you don't you think they would appear in
49:19
Speaker 1: a very appealing. Manner, sure when you think about the
49:22
Speaker 1: way that it's portrayed in, film where you have a
49:24
Speaker 1: similar storyline the movie Be, dazzle the newer one that
49:27
Speaker 1: the remake you Have Elizabeth hurley is playing the devil
49:29
Speaker 1: tempting at, well of course you're gonna have a beautiful woman.
49:32
Speaker 1: There or you Have Chris hemsworth Playing, thor Who jane
49:36
Speaker 1: falls in love, with you, know and he's either.
49:39
Speaker 2: Way i'm glad you brought that up because that shows
49:42
Speaker 2: the secular infatuation with this same. Story The thor series
49:48
Speaker 2: of movies that are, very very very. Popular probably most
49:53
Speaker 2: of the teenagers in early twenties have seen those movies
49:56
Speaker 2: and they've absorbed that. Idea you, know that the gods
49:59
Speaker 2: are just pretty good.
50:00
Speaker 1: People you even have That guardians of The. Galaxy it's
50:03
Speaker 1: the same thing where the second, film the Guy Chris
50:07
Speaker 1: pratt's father played By Kurt, russell is viewed as a
50:10
Speaker 1: god and he goes around to these different planets and
50:13
Speaker 1: is sleeping with different women and producing offspring in That
50:17
Speaker 1: so that's the same. Idea but they're appealing characters in
50:19
Speaker 1: the sense that they visually. Appealing they're not going to
50:22
Speaker 1: be these horrible Gross now from a spiritual, perspective we
50:26
Speaker 1: know who they, are and that's, Disgusting but from just
50:28
Speaker 1: the physical, perspective they're not going to appear in the
50:31
Speaker 1: most vile form that you can. Imagine satan manifests an
50:34
Speaker 1: angel of, light and so it's no wonder if his
50:36
Speaker 1: ad ministers do the. Same.
50:39
Speaker 2: Now, so, really this mythology has leaped forward into our,
50:45
Speaker 2: era our contemporary, era and it's kind of, a if you,
50:48
Speaker 2: will satanic, propaganda in my, Opinion and for those who
50:54
Speaker 2: do not know The lord and who are infatuated with
50:58
Speaker 2: the whole idea of outer space and powers and acquiring
51:02
Speaker 2: various kinds of, power and, WOW i WISH i could
51:05
Speaker 2: meet one of those people who could impart some of
51:09
Speaker 2: his powers to, me and, boy WOULD i ever do
51:11
Speaker 2: some wonderful things IF i had those. Powers and that
51:14
Speaker 2: whole mythology has kind of crept into our.
51:16
Speaker 1: CULTURE i think it's part Of god putting eternity in our.
51:19
Speaker 1: Hearts we long for something bigger and grander than, ourselves
51:23
Speaker 1: and yet our culture has been so deceived to the point, where,
51:25
Speaker 1: well it's not The, bible it's not what The bible tells.
51:28
Speaker 1: Us it's got to be something. Else and they will believe,
51:30
Speaker 1: anything no matter how outlandish or buts are but the.
51:33
Speaker 1: Truth The truth is the True son Of, god the
51:37
Speaker 1: Actual son Of, god The Lord Jesus christ became one of,
51:40
Speaker 1: us and he took on human, flesh and he was
51:43
Speaker 1: born as a baby In. Bethlehem he had his diapers,
51:47
Speaker 1: changed he went, through he grew up and grew in
51:49
Speaker 1: wisdom and knowledge and, stature and he in favor with The.
51:52
Speaker 1: Lord As luke tells, us he was tempted in always
51:56
Speaker 1: that we, are and yet without. Sin and then he
51:58
Speaker 1: did the most amazing thing. Ever he went to the
52:01
Speaker 1: cross and died in our. Place he took the most
52:04
Speaker 1: horrifying death that we can ever, imagine was beaten, mercilessly
52:09
Speaker 1: and went to the cross and took our. Place that's
52:10
Speaker 1: what we. Deserve we've all rebelled against our. Creator we deserve.
52:14
Speaker 1: That and Yet god himself Said i'll take. It i'll do.
52:17
Speaker 1: It and it's not over three days. Later i'm going
52:20
Speaker 1: to rise from the dead And i'm going to show
52:21
Speaker 1: you what's going to happen to you if you. Believe and,
52:25
Speaker 1: yeah you can't plumb the depths Of god's. Love as
52:28
Speaker 1: you said, before it's it's, incredible and nobody would make
52:30
Speaker 1: up that, Story.
52:32
Speaker 2: No they would. Not and as you're sort of telling
52:35
Speaker 2: that story recounting, that what comes to my mind is
52:39
Speaker 2: one of the most impressive scriptural statements in the Entire
52:43
Speaker 2: bible In First john and his three little, words and
52:47
Speaker 2: the three words Are god is, love.
52:52
Speaker 1: Says it. Twice it says it.
52:53
Speaker 2: Twice you're exactly, right and those are that's kind of
52:58
Speaker 2: a throwaway. Line god is love a minute a. Minute that's.
53:02
Speaker 2: Huge that's.
53:03
Speaker 1: Huge it's especially in our day because if you look
53:07
Speaker 1: At jesus told his disciples shortly, before before he was
53:11
Speaker 1: arrest and, everything all men will know you are my
53:13
Speaker 1: disciples if you have the best theological, arguments if you
53:18
Speaker 1: fight and argue with your brothers all the, time, no
53:20
Speaker 1: if you have love for one another a new command
53:23
Speaker 1: WHEN i give you love one. Another that's what we've
53:25
Speaker 1: been commanded to. Do and you, know as a, church
53:28
Speaker 1: a lot of times we fail at that loving fellow
53:31
Speaker 1: believers because they might have different theological views than. Us
53:34
Speaker 1: AND i think it's a shame because The, Bible jesus
53:37
Speaker 1: is very, clear people will know the outside world is
53:39
Speaker 1: going to know you're my followers if you have love
53:41
Speaker 1: for one, Another if we want to reach this lost
53:45
Speaker 1: and dying, culture then let's show them Who god. Is
53:49
Speaker 1: god is. Love let's show them what that really looks
53:51
Speaker 1: like and treat fellow brothers and sisters In christ with
53:56
Speaker 1: love and. Respect it doesn't mean that there's not, correction
53:58
Speaker 1: of course there, is but it's of, gentleness As galatians
54:01
Speaker 1: six talks. About and so that's an issue that's been
54:04
Speaker 1: really close to my heart. Lately i've been in the
54:05
Speaker 1: middle of writing an article on. IT i THINK i
54:07
Speaker 1: think it's so important for us to Take jesus seriously
54:11
Speaker 1: when he says, that.
54:12
Speaker 2: Well if you're writing an article on, it we might
54:14
Speaker 2: be able to print. That and the PropheC watcher that
54:18
Speaker 2: sounds like a great. Article but as we look at
54:21
Speaker 2: the big, picture and MAYBE i should say the huge
54:24
Speaker 2: picture of The, nephilim the, demigods people who tried to
54:32
Speaker 2: assume the power Of, god and they tried to take
54:35
Speaker 2: the earth by, force and by the, way they're still.
54:37
Speaker 2: Trying those principalities and powers are still at. Work, really
54:43
Speaker 2: this entire subject becomes a question of the love Of
54:48
Speaker 2: god versus the revolutionary power of human beings under the
54:57
Speaker 2: guidance of sat trying to still try to, rebel still
55:01
Speaker 2: trying to create another superior. Culture and by the, way
55:09
Speaker 2: that's you, KNOW i guess behind everything we see, today
55:13
Speaker 2: the strive Toward marxist, communism it's all backed by these
55:21
Speaker 2: ancient the conflicts that we read about in The. Bible
55:25
Speaker 2: it's coming to us in a slightly modified.
55:28
Speaker 1: Form oh, yeah it gets repackaged all the. Time and
55:31
Speaker 1: there's a reason Why marxism is very much Anti. Christian
55:35
Speaker 1: marx himself was very clear on that. Issue and so
55:38
Speaker 1: you see in our culture today a lot of this
55:40
Speaker 1: what we call Neo, marxism whether it's the critical gender
55:44
Speaker 1: theory or critical race theory or all the other. Ones,
55:47
Speaker 1: yes they're all part of a Neo marxist worldview that
55:50
Speaker 1: is attacking anything of A Judeo christian foundation of our.
55:54
Speaker 1: Culture because if you can destroy the, family if you
55:57
Speaker 1: can destroy the, church if you can just you're going
55:59
Speaker 1: to bring down the. Country and that's what they, want
56:01
Speaker 1: as much conflict as. Possible they want to separate everybody
56:05
Speaker 1: any means. Possible and yet The bible talked about how
56:08
Speaker 1: good it is when brothers can dwell in, unity and
56:11
Speaker 1: what we talked about just a little bit. Ago that,
56:13
Speaker 1: sure The christians are supposed to have love for one.
56:15
Speaker 1: Another and by the, way we're also commanded to love our.
56:18
Speaker 1: Enemy we're also commanded to love our. Family and can
56:23
Speaker 1: you think of anybody outside of? That love one, another
56:25
Speaker 1: love your, neighbor love your. ENEMY i think that includes.
56:28
Speaker 2: EVERYBODY i think it. Does and again we have an
56:33
Speaker 2: opportunity these, DAYS i think to practice that as never.
56:38
Speaker 2: Before the Author Tim, chafee and that the book is
56:46
Speaker 2: a very detailed book about the sons Of, god The.
56:49
Speaker 2: Nephilum this this ancient battle that's been going. On if
56:53
Speaker 2: you want, clarity if you want to detailed the detailed
56:59
Speaker 2: aspects of, this this revolutionist's been going on for how
57:04
Speaker 2: many thousand years? Now and.
57:07
Speaker 1: Since before the, flood so before the.
57:09
Speaker 2: Flood, yeah and if you really want to read about the,
57:12
Speaker 2: Details tim's done some amazing research. Here and what are
57:16
Speaker 2: you working on?
57:17
Speaker 1: Now by the, Way, well Actually i'm glad you, asked
57:20
Speaker 1: BECAUSE i think the Project i'm working on at work
57:22
Speaker 1: at The ark And counter in The Creasy museum is
57:24
Speaker 1: something that you guys are going to. Love we are
57:26
Speaker 1: building a huge model of first Century jerusalem from the
57:30
Speaker 1: time Of jesus so it's going to be about forty
57:32
Speaker 1: feet by sixty, Feet so it's not as large as
57:34
Speaker 1: the one that you see at The Israel museum, today
57:36
Speaker 1: but that's FROM ad sixty six and it's all made
57:40
Speaker 1: out of the same. Material it's not populated at, all
57:42
Speaker 1: so it's hard to see the. Scale what we're doing
57:44
Speaker 1: is actually putting more than fifteen thousand little figures in.
57:47
Speaker 1: There we're putting all the greenery Every it's going to
57:50
Speaker 1: be the most accurate model Of jerusalem anywhere in the.
57:53
Speaker 2: World, now this is The jerusalem Of jesus.
57:55
Speaker 1: Time, yeah so from thirty THREE. Ado SO i don't.
57:58
Speaker 2: Think anybody's ever done that THAT i can think THAT
58:01
Speaker 2: i know.
58:01
Speaker 1: Of we're working with the, experts even the curator of
58:04
Speaker 1: the museum or The Israel, museum who is the curator
58:06
Speaker 1: of that exhibit that that huge. Model we've been working with,
58:09
Speaker 1: him contracted with him to look over some of our.
58:12
Speaker 1: Stuff we have been digging through excavation reports and everything
58:17
Speaker 1: we can to get it exactly. Right in fact that
58:19
Speaker 1: WHEN i finished my doctorate back In, may my dissertation
58:22
Speaker 1: was on a historical study Of jerusalem from circa thirty
58:25
Speaker 1: three a. D and comparing it to. Today so you,
58:29
Speaker 1: know when you go there, today they, say here's The
58:30
Speaker 1: Via Dola rosa Where. Jesus now that's on the wrong
58:33
Speaker 1: side of town and actually over, here and even if
58:35
Speaker 1: it was, here you'd be twenty feet. Lower so it's
58:38
Speaker 1: not that you can't have a profound spiritual experience, there
58:40
Speaker 1: of course you can.
58:41
Speaker 2: Well but having gone To, israel of, course the steps
58:45
Speaker 2: at the south end of the SOUTHWEST i guess it, is,
58:49
Speaker 2: yeah southwest end of the temple that that go up
58:53
Speaker 2: into the southern. Platform people say That jesus actually may
58:58
Speaker 2: have walked on those. Steps SO i got a chance
59:01
Speaker 2: to walk up those, steps you, know AND i walked
59:03
Speaker 2: up there AND i thought about, This, wow what a
59:06
Speaker 2: what a.
59:07
Speaker 1: Thing we were there a year, ago and there are
59:08
Speaker 1: four of us on the team that went, there and
59:10
Speaker 1: we walked on what's called the pilgrimage road from The
59:12
Speaker 1: pool Of saloam and they're excavating right. Now we got
59:14
Speaker 1: The we were led by the archaeologist who's doing, it and,
59:18
Speaker 1: yeah some of the steps are first. Century you're walking
59:20
Speaker 1: Where jesus walked after he would have healed the blind. Man,
59:23
Speaker 1: yeah and it's people pretty soon that road's going to
59:26
Speaker 1: open up maybe in about five, years and people can go.
59:28
Speaker 1: There but what people won't be able to do there
59:30
Speaker 1: that they can do with what we're. Doing you're still
59:33
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of times on top of you,
59:35
Speaker 1: know twenty to thirty feet of rock and, sediment we're
59:38
Speaker 1: going to be showing people what it actually looked like
59:39
Speaker 1: In jesus' time and doing a lot of teaching. There
59:42
Speaker 1: SO i can't wait for that to.
59:43
Speaker 2: HAPPEN i want to see. That, yeah you are going
59:45
Speaker 2: to make a, book.
59:46
Speaker 1: So probably several of. Them, Yeah i'm working right on right.
59:49
Speaker 2: NOW i guts thumbed through and see all these. Places that's.
59:52
Speaker 2: Terrific may The lords be your, Work thank you so.
59:56
Speaker 2: Much his name Is Tim. Chaffey he's Written Follow them
1:00:00
Speaker 2: Of god and The nephelem and by the way that
1:00:04
Speaker 2: it's a it's a good read AND i suggest, it
1:00:08
Speaker 2: and may The lord bless.
1:00:09
Speaker 1: You