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How to have difficult conversations · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
0:11
the project profession. My name is Emma Devita, and I'm
0:15
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host.
0:19
In this podcast, I'm speaking to Marie Coombs and Sophie Payton
0:22
about that perennial topic of interest, How to have difficult
0:26
conversations. I'm sure all of you face this
0:29
challenge in your project work, so we've got some advice from
0:31
two people who know all about it to help you feel less daunted
0:35
and get better at doing it. Marie is the Director of We
0:38
Restore Calm and a seasoned expert in HR, conflict
0:41
resolution, mediation, and employee engagement, through
0:44
which he's won a number of awards.
0:46
Sophie is an experienced facilitator and partner at Make
0:50
Happy, a consultancy that helps teams unlock their full
0:53
potential, solve complex problems and find new ideas.
0:57
I got them together to share their inside tips on how to make
1:00
difficult conversations less difficult.
1:03
In fact, I was told that we shouldn't even describe these
1:05
sorts of conversations as difficult, but rather reframe
1:08
them as essential. Listen on to some of their other
1:11
brilliant insights. Marie and Sophie, it's lovely to
1:18
have you here. Thanks for sparing the time to
1:20
talk to us about having a difficult conversation.
1:23
Thank you for asking. Us very nice to be here.
1:25
What makes a conversation a difficult one to have?
1:29
Why does it become difficult if it started out OK?
1:32
Sophie, maybe you'd like to go first.
1:35
My definition of what makes a difficult conversation is anyone
1:38
that you're feeling worried about that you're feeling a bit
1:41
trepidatious about maybe lying in bed thinking, oh gosh, I
1:45
really don't want to want to have to talk to this person
1:48
about that. And it can be maybe it's
1:50
something really big. You know, we're not going to be
1:53
able to deliver this because of one person's inability to
1:57
produce what they need to produce.
1:59
But sometimes it can be smaller stuff.
2:01
You know, it might be that you want to move where your desk is
2:06
in the office or something because of, like, a personal
2:08
reason to you. But those things can, over time,
2:11
become big in your mind as well. And so, yeah, I guess that's
2:15
what I'd say is anything that you're worrying about, that's
2:18
what becomes a difficult conversation.
2:20
OK. And I guess, Marie, you'd agree
2:23
with that. I do, yeah, to A to a certain
2:25
extent, I have an issue with the word difficult purely because
2:28
that automatically puts that reframe that it's a conversation
2:33
to be avoided. It's a conversation to be
2:34
worried about. And I'm actually on a mission to
2:37
try and change the word difficult to essential because
2:40
they're conversations we need to have.
2:42
And actually what makes them difficult is the fact that we
2:45
build them up in our minds as being difficult.
2:48
We build them up in our minds as something to be avoided or
2:51
that's something that we're not looking forward to.
2:54
And that's not saying that doing the reframe, we're automatically
2:56
going to look forward to them, but it just shifts something in
2:59
our mindset and it gets us looking at that conversation
3:02
from a slightly different perspective and a slightly
3:04
different point of view. Because when we frame something
3:07
as difficult, that activates the fight or flight mechanism in our
3:11
brains. So it activates the emotional
3:14
centre that automatically tells our brain that the conversation
3:17
is a threat. So we then think of it as a
3:19
threat. Whereas if we think of it as a
3:21
conversation that you know needs to happen, but actually could be
3:25
incredibly productive and constructive and actually be a
3:28
driving force, if that actually shifts our mindset and makes us
3:32
less afraid of it, which means generally it's going to be a
3:34
better conversation than the one we probably thought of as being
3:38
difficult. I know when we've spoken
3:41
previously that you you made the very obvious point that you have
3:45
to expect to have conversations like these with other people.
3:49
It's just part of life. Everybody thinks that conflict
3:52
is something bad, and actually conflict just is.
3:55
It's like death and taxes. It's how we deal with it that
3:59
decides whether it's destructive or constructive.
4:02
It's the destructive nature of conflict we can avoid, not
4:05
conflict itself. And that reframe just starting
4:08
off thinking about that conversation as being a
4:10
conversation that's essential, that makes it more likely it's
4:14
going to be a constructive conversation.
4:16
And constructive conflict is where innovation lives.
4:18
It's where creativity lives. It's where ideas live.
4:22
If you go into the mindset of it being destructive, you don't get
4:25
any of that creativity because your mind is hardwired for
4:28
threat. Sophie, do you have any tips
4:30
about how to prepare to have an essential conversation?
4:35
I'm rebranding it essential not, not difficult that can help you
4:40
go in I guess with greater confidence.
4:44
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with what Marie says there about
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reframing it. And I think as well as reframing
4:50
the whole idea of the conversation as being essential
4:52
rather than difficult. Sometimes you can get more
4:55
specific. And you know, if you've got
4:57
these thoughts running through your minds like this is going to
5:00
be awful to just flip that and say, you know, this is going to
5:02
be really valuable. This is going to help me achieve
5:06
whatever it is I need to achieve.
5:08
And it sounds really obvious and so simple, but actually just by
5:11
doing that, you do really start to have a powerful effect.
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And as Marie says, so much of why we dread these conversations
5:17
is because of our fight or flight response.
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And actually reframing your thoughts can be the first step
5:23
in starting to regulate that emotional primal response, that
5:28
threat detection and system that's being triggered by the
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thought of having a conflict with someone.
5:33
It can be useful to plan a little bit so to have in your
5:37
mind what your goal for the conversation is like, what do
5:39
you actually want to achieve? And then maybe jot down a few
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points of kind of essential points you need to get across.
5:47
But I think, again, tying into what Maria was saying about when
5:49
you let it start to go over and over and over in your mind is
5:53
not to expend too much mental energy in the preparation, sort
5:57
of thinking how it's going to go, because you never really
6:00
know how the other person is going to react.
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And you can use up a lot of emotional energy kind of
6:05
thinking about it in advance. Are there any tips about going
6:09
into a conversation and when you're preparing to think about
6:14
what are the outcomes you'd be happy to have and should you be
6:18
a bit flexible about that? So should you have almost like
6:22
best case scenario and a worst case scenario?
6:25
Yeah. Interestingly enough, in the
6:26
mediation world we, we have 3 phrases, Batna, Watna, malatna,
6:31
which is best alternative, worst alternative, most likely
6:35
alternative to what it is you want to get out of that
6:38
conversation. So we use a lot of that in the
6:42
conflict resolution world and the conflict transformation
6:44
world to get people to think about, you know, what's the
6:47
worst case scenario? How do I feel about that?
6:50
What's the best case scenario? Is that actually achievable?
6:53
And what's the most likely scenario that's going to happen
6:56
in that situation? And if you go in prepared for
6:59
those 3 eventualities, actually that conversation just becomes a
7:02
lot easier because you're not trying to think in the
7:04
conversation what those things might be.
7:07
So my advice would be any preparation.
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They're really the three key things to think about it in
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terms of what your outcomes are going to be.
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What are those potential outcomes?
7:15
And that could be, again, apologies for for chucking in
7:18
acronyms. Mediation world's full of
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acronyms as I'm sure project management is as well.
7:23
Yeah, they love the acronym. It's catchy, though.
7:28
That's the sort of things, you know, if you feel nervous and
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everything just flies out of your brain.
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But if you can cling on to something, that's always
7:34
helpful. Sophie, was there anything you
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wanted to add? For me, I think the most
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important thing going into a conversation, I mean, you're
7:42
kind of mentally thinking about how you're going to approach it
7:45
is that you also have to be willing to listen and you have
7:48
to be willing that actually your outcome might not be the outcome
7:52
that's reached and you might actually not be as right as you
7:56
think you are. And I think that's a really
7:58
important part of preparing is to say this is going to be a two
8:01
way conversation. It's not just going to be me
8:03
getting my way. And you know, obviously ideally
8:06
both people go into the conversation with that mindset
8:09
as well. But definitely the bit you can
8:11
control is your own approach. I don't know if you've read
8:15
Nancy Klein time to think. It's about really creating the
8:19
optimal environment to do great for human beings to do great
8:21
thinking. One of the things she says,
8:24
which what really resonates with me is that because of the way
8:26
we're educated and then we're managed in the workplace, often
8:29
when another person is speaking, we're not really listening and
8:32
processing what they are saying. We're actually just formulating
8:35
our own response in our mind. And, and I think we can all
8:38
reflect on ourselves and our experiences and when we do that
8:41
quite a lot. And so to try and dial down that
8:45
in a voice that's maybe mentally rebutting what the other person
8:50
is saying as they're talking and just actually listen and try and
8:52
understand and look for meaning in what they're saying is a
8:55
really, really important part of having a great conversation with
8:59
someone. So try to be a great listener as
9:02
much as worrying about what you're trying to get across.
9:05
Thank you. Is it natural to want to avoid
9:09
difficult or essential conversations and is that a good
9:14
strategy? Yes, 100% normal.
9:17
And no, it's not a good strategy.
9:20
It's a very, very simple answer. It's really, really interesting.
9:23
I was running a training course yesterday and every single
9:26
person in the room, when I said to them, if you ever had any
9:28
training on conflicts, the answer was no.
9:31
Because it's one of those topics that we never really get taught
9:34
how to do. We just expected to do it.
9:37
And what generally happens is you pick up how to deal with
9:40
essential situations. We pick up how to deal with that
9:44
from our parents, from what we learn as children, and then we
9:47
take that into adulthood. So from my perspective, I got
9:51
bullied a lot as a kid. I was always told by my mum,
9:54
walk away from those bullies because they'll stop if you walk
9:58
away. So I had the mentality until I
10:01
did my training in 2014 as a mediator.
10:04
I had the mentality of walking away from a difficult situation
10:07
or an essential situation was the right thing to do because if
10:10
I walk away from it, it goes away.
10:12
Spoiler alert, it doesn't. It never goes away because if
10:16
nothing else, it builds up as an internal conflict, even if the
10:19
other person isn't aware of what's going on.
10:22
And we sometimes forget that conflict isn't just between two
10:25
people. It's also internal as well.
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It's that self talk. It's that building up a
10:30
situation to be worse than it is and avoiding it.
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What we tend to do is we tend to build it up so that when we see
10:36
that person again, we're already in a situation where I'm
10:40
dreading seeing this person because of that build up in our
10:43
minds. So but it's not about going in
10:45
or guns blazing as well and saying, you know what, we just
10:48
need to crack on with this and fix it.
10:49
And it is about that listening and picking up on on what Sophie
10:53
said. Stephen Covey also came out with
10:55
a very, very similar line. We spend our lives listening to
10:58
respond rather than listening to hear.
11:00
And that is usually what happens when we do go in or guns
11:03
blazing. We go in with our own
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preconceived mindsets of this is how the conversation's going to
11:09
go. And it becomes more complicated
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when we don't get the response we've expected to get.
11:14
So we're spending our time thinking of what a new response
11:17
is going to be rather than listening to hear essentially.
11:21
So yeah, walking away. There's lots of different ways
11:23
people deal with conflict. Walking away from it, not
11:25
dealing with it at all, going in all guns blazing, phoning
11:30
people, pleasing, you know, just capitulating because it's easier
11:33
than having the conversation. When actually the keyword is
11:36
collaboration. It's about getting in there and
11:39
having a two way conversation. That is the way to deal with
11:42
essential situations. OK.
11:46
That is some really excellent and thoughtful advice.
11:50
I think I would just like to go in and ask you there for how do
11:54
you try to have the best conversations you can have when
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you're talking about something difficult or something
12:00
essential. So kind of what are the do's and
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then we could maybe move on to the don'ts.
12:05
We've already covered quite a lot in terms of thinking about
12:08
the conversation and preparing, but Sophie, what advice do you
12:13
give to your kind of clients about having conversations like
12:16
this? The number one thing that I
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think makes the biggest difference is actually just
12:22
breathing, which might sound strange, but again, you know,
12:26
going back to what Marie described about the our nervous
12:29
system being triggered in these conversations, our bodies are
12:31
just being pumped full of adrenaline.
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And just as Marie said, it produces these responses,
12:36
whether it's avoidance, withdrawing, fawning, coming
12:40
out, fighting, whatever it might be.
12:42
And none of those are going to help you have a good
12:45
conversation and help you achieve what you need to
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achieve. Something to really help you
12:49
regulate that is just breathing. Because it's a two way dialogue
12:52
between that kind of nervous response and your brain.
12:56
And if you can start to just slow your breathing down and
13:00
regulate your breathing, then that sends a really strong
13:02
signal to your brain that actually you're safe and it
13:04
starts to give you a bit of control and it starts to dampen
13:07
that adrenal response and that's happening in your body.
13:11
We recommend sometimes using a technique called rectangular
13:14
breathing, which some people might be familiar with.
13:17
There are lots of different breathing techniques you can
13:19
use, but with rectangular breathing, you can find a
13:22
rectangle in the room and try and breathe in as you run your
13:28
eyes up the short side of it and breathe out as you run your eyes
13:31
over the long side of it so that you're just deepening that out
13:34
breath and you're just slowing your breath down.
13:37
And just even doing that for half a minute, a minute, you'll
13:39
start to notice in your body. Maybe your heartbeat starts to
13:43
slow down. Maybe if your hands a bit shaky,
13:46
that will start to calm down. You know, maybe you're feeling a
13:49
bit sweaty, all these things that really, really common.
13:52
Maybe you feel a bit nauseous. That will all just start to
13:56
settle. And it's such a simple thing to
13:58
do. But again, going back to Marie's
14:00
point, we're just not taught, we're not equipped with any of
14:03
these skills really quite simple steps we can take to create
14:06
better conditions for a conversation to happen.
14:10
OK. And Sophie, what about when
14:12
you're in that conversation? Is there any tips on how to
14:15
start a conversation like that? Maybe you're the one that's
14:18
asked for the meeting or perhaps you're not.
14:22
How do you try and get it off on a good foot?
14:25
I mean, there are a few different things.
14:27
Again, something quite simple, it's just about your body
14:29
language. So are you kind of keeping your
14:31
body language open? Again, you're showing to that
14:34
other person. Just as you want yourself to
14:36
feel safe in the conversation, you want the other person to
14:39
feel safe too, and to send a signal to them that their flight
14:43
or flight system doesn't have to come into action.
14:47
And a really immediate way of doing that is just by having
14:49
open, relaxed body language, you know, not folding your arms over
14:52
your chest, not kind of clutching a folder in front of
14:56
you. And also linked to that is just
14:58
thinking about where you sit in the room, you know, to maybe try
15:01
and sit next to the person rather than across from a table
15:05
to create that mental shift that you're not in opposition, you're
15:08
in partnership. And the problem is, you know,
15:10
external to both of you and you're working together to solve
15:14
it, rather than the problem being the other person.
15:17
That's a very good point, Marie. What would your kind of tips be
15:21
for trying to get a conversation like this started Well and and
15:27
and to continue? Well, so Sophie's done some
15:30
really good stuff there in terms of the body, in terms of
15:33
mindset. Going into the conversation,
15:35
starting the conversation from a place of curiosity.
15:39
If you sit there with just a curious mind, it automatically
15:42
changes the tone that you're using because you're coming from
15:46
a place of I want to understand rather than you've done this
15:49
wrong or we've done this wrong. So that curiosity changes your
15:53
tone. It changes your language because
15:55
you're coming from a place of seeking to understand rather
15:58
than seeking to punish or have a go at somebody.
16:01
And it also changes how your body reacts as well, because if
16:06
you come in from a place of curiosity isn't a threat.
16:08
So it naturally helps in terms of regulating that body as well.
16:12
One of the things we do in the mediation room is we have no
16:15
tables. So tables automatically create
16:18
an adversarial atmosphere. And I'll tell you what, watching
16:21
people's panic when they walk in the room, when they see there's
16:23
no tables, that is absolutely hysterical because people walk
16:26
in looking for that safety barrier, which tells me straight
16:30
away that they're coming and thinking this is a threat based
16:32
conversation, which automatically changes how I
16:34
introduce the conversation because I know I need to make
16:37
that person feel immediately psychologically safe.
16:41
So straight away, how are you doing?
16:43
What's you know what, what have you been doing before you came
16:45
in here today? What did you have for your tea
16:46
last night? I immediately go to curious
16:49
questions to understand somebody before I get into the meat of
16:52
the conversation. And if somebody is struggling to
16:55
regulate in the room, I change the environment.
16:57
So I have done a number of conversations, not just
17:00
mediation, It's just general conversations where I said,
17:03
let's go for a walk. Yeah, let's get up and get out
17:05
of this room. Let's go and get some fresh,
17:06
even if it's just walking down the corridor because what that
17:09
does as well, it naturally helps regulate because then the body's
17:13
concentrating on movement, not on getting away from the threat.
17:17
So it is just several, several little things that you can do,
17:20
The biggest ones in terms of mindset, of curiosity, going in
17:23
with an open mind and going in from a place of empathy as well.
17:28
So there's 2 words that are hugely, hugely important to me
17:32
and they are acceptance and agreement.
17:34
You can accept what somebody's saying is their truth, but that
17:37
doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
17:39
And actually what that can do as well is it can change the tone
17:42
of a conversation because it's about accepting somebody else's
17:45
perspective and understanding of a situation.
17:48
But that doesn't mean you have to agree with it because it's
17:50
their perception and their understanding of the situation.
17:53
All you can do is agree on how you move forward.
17:56
And that's where the curiosity really comes into play when
17:59
you're starting to agree on how to move forward.
18:01
So so your curiosity, open minded empathy are big big
18:05
things for me. We're APM, the only chartered
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apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed,
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society benefits. Have you got any advice, either
18:39
of you on going into meeting with a, a group of people?
18:44
So a team of people? So I'm trying to put myself in
18:46
the shoes of a project professional who might be tasked
18:48
with delivering bad news on a project to a team of
18:52
stakeholders that perhaps it's beyond their control what's
18:55
happened, but they are the ones that now have to deliver the
18:59
news and fix the problem. And I like very much what you've
19:02
just been talking about. You're there together to fix the
19:05
problem together to find a solution together.
19:08
But I mean, I can imagine how daunting that must be.
19:11
And also if it's something that you personally are feeling quite
19:14
upset about because it's going to give you a lot of headaches,
19:16
but you have to be the face of positivity.
19:20
And also, you're going to go into that room knowing that
19:24
you're going to have a bad reaction.
19:26
You know what you're saying is going to give you grief.
19:29
So any advice around handling that situation as best you can?
19:34
I support managers doing a lot of this kind of thing and what I
19:39
I usually recommend is maybe having some form of pre
19:41
conversation, even if it's only sort of 5-10 minutes with
19:45
everybody just to say how you feel and this is what's
19:47
happened. What are your thoughts rather
19:50
than having to do that in front of everybody else.
19:51
If you've got any key thoughts that you want to bring into the
19:53
room. Is that something you could do
19:55
by e-mail, or is it sort of trying to catch people?
19:58
I would personally do it verbally.
20:01
You don't necessarily do it on a team's call or whatever.
20:03
It might just be a phone call. It doesn't have to be anything
20:06
to owners. It certainly doesn't need to be
20:07
anything more than maybe 5 or 10 minutes.
20:09
The problem I have with e-mail is people read emails in the
20:13
tone that they receive them in, not in the tone in which they
20:15
were sent in, which can often mean that that message is
20:19
misjudged or misunderstood. So if you're already feeling a
20:23
little bit frustrated or stressed about situation and an
20:27
e-mail pops into your inbox from the project manager saying this
20:30
isn't going well, I want to get your thoughts.
20:32
You may read that in the sense of being stressed and frustrated
20:35
rather than coming from a place of curiosity yourself.
20:38
So I I'd written communication when there is an essential
20:43
situation that needs to be talked about.
20:45
Used sparingly. A lot of people use e-mail as a
20:48
way of avoidance. And actually it's about picking
20:52
up the phone, jumping on teams, having a conversation.
20:54
But when you're actually in the room together, for me, it's
20:57
about honesty. When we when we start a a
21:01
mediated conversation, I will start the conversation with
21:04
we're here because we found ourselves in a challenging
21:07
conversation. We've found ourselves in a
21:09
challenging situation and this is the place to get that out in
21:12
the open. So it's not about whitewashing
21:15
that conversation and going right, we're here to fix it.
21:17
It's about actually acknowledging, yeah, this is
21:20
rubbish, but this is our opportunity to flip that and put
21:25
that in a place where actually we can move out of it.
21:27
So actually highlighting the fact that it's challenging
21:29
bringing that out into the open rather than hiding it is often
21:33
the first step in those conversations.
21:35
And that can shift things on its head because everybody kind of
21:38
goes, all right, OK, yeah, we've acknowledged this, rub it.
21:41
OK, let's just talk about it then.
21:43
OK. And Sophie, what would your
21:45
advice be for these situations? Well, I think Marie's imparted
21:49
so much wisdom there, and I totally agree with everything
21:53
she said. I think the challenge in those
21:55
group situations is often what happens is they've got eight
22:00
people in the room. There are three people who are
22:03
very comfortable talking, and then there are five people who
22:07
aren't. So the conversation gets
22:09
dominated by the three loudest voices in the room.
22:12
And if those three voices are not feeling positive about the
22:18
situation, then that can really shape a negative outcome for the
22:22
whole conversation. So I think it's useful, just
22:26
building on what Marie's saying, to think about ways that you can
22:28
make sure everyone's able to contribute equally.
22:31
Have you got any practical tips? Any advice about doing that?
22:36
We use a couple of different techniques, one which is going
22:39
to sound really zany, which I'll say second.
22:41
The first one is using rounds. So just literally, you know,
22:45
whether you're posing a question or you're explaining a situation
22:48
and you're asking for people's ideas or response.
22:51
And just to go in turn, one by one, people have, let's say a
22:55
minute each to share what they want to say.
22:58
And then there's no rebuttal. So people don't disagree or
23:01
respond. It's just about giving each
23:03
person an allotted spot to make their contribution.
23:06
And you're not getting into a back and forth.
23:09
And that's really useful techniques.
23:10
It means everyone is given the option to contribute.
23:13
You can also give people a bit of thinking time before they
23:16
share. So those people who might need
23:18
just a bit more processing time before they're willing to
23:20
contribute have that, and then they're given an allotted space
23:24
to speak. So if you are more reserved,
23:26
it's really hard to interrupt when you've got those dominant
23:29
voices going. So by giving everyone their own
23:32
space, you create the best conditions to get the most out
23:36
of everyone. What we sometimes add on to
23:38
this, which is the only part, is that we sometimes get people to
23:42
build their response with Lego. They have 5 or 6 minutes
23:47
building time, they can process, they can think, they create this
23:50
kind of visual artefact of their idea, and then one by one people
23:55
explain the story behind their model.
23:58
There are lots of reasons why it works really well.
24:00
Partly it's the thinking time, partly it's the doing something
24:03
with your hands which activates different bits of your brain and
24:07
makes you a bit more creative and opens new ideas.
24:10
But also it again externalises the problem.
24:14
So you're talking about a model, you're not talking about the
24:17
fact that you know Sandra never gets her reported on time or
24:21
whatever it might be. So you try and avoid that kind
24:24
of flame game. How should you handle negativity
24:31
from people in a meeting or maybe even aggression?
24:35
So I think there are a few environmental things that you
24:37
can try and do from the outset to make people feel calmer.
24:41
You know, we have a tendency to have meeting rooms that are in
24:44
the middle of a building. They've got no natural lights.
24:47
You're under some kind of strong strip lighting.
24:49
You're sat at a table just like Mary was talking about earlier.
24:53
And often you're really crammed into a tiny room.
24:56
None of those things are going to help people feel calm and in
24:59
a good place. If you can have a more spacious
25:01
room, if you can have some natural light, if you can think,
25:05
you know, being able as Marie has to have no tables might not
25:08
always be possible. But as much as you can, if you
25:10
can get people sitting around in a circle in chairs with no
25:14
tables, that's going to be such a better environment for a good
25:16
conversation. Also, I think you can.
25:20
I think it is useful to sometimes give people a space at
25:23
the beginning to vent so they can put out all the things that
25:28
they're feeling annoyed about, that they're feeling frustrated
25:31
about. And you get that out on the
25:33
table at the beginning. You give them that space to just
25:36
get everything out that they need to and then you can turn
25:39
the conversation on to, OK, we've talked about that.
25:41
So now what are we going to do? Because if you don't give people
25:44
that space, they keep coming back round to that stuff
25:48
throughout the conversation. So they've got to get it out.
25:51
Do you ask people then at the beginning of the meeting, like,
25:53
so how do you feel about this? And then everyone that's out,
25:56
their frustration, anger, whatever.
25:59
Yeah, there's. Kind of a, there's kind of
26:00
another step to come after that as well, because it's great to
26:02
allow people to vent In the mediation world, we call that
26:05
uninterrupted speaking time. So we have a much more unwieldy
26:08
word for it, but I quite like rounds.
26:10
I might have to go back. I might have to use that
26:11
instead. But we have the uninterrupted
26:14
speaking time, which means that not only it's, it's that
26:17
listening to hear rather than listening to respond in action
26:20
because you're having, having to listen knowing you can't
26:23
respond. So it, it, it changes the, the,
26:26
the way that people listen in the room.
26:27
But the other side of that is whoever's leading that meeting
26:31
acknowledge that emotion. So it's not just about about
26:35
allowing that emotion out and somebody saying, you know what,
26:38
I'm really frustrating and there being no response to that.
26:41
It is about the person leading that session to go.
26:43
You know what, I hear that frustration and I'm sure it's
26:45
shared in the room. But thank you for giving us your
26:47
perspective. And it's about voicing that
26:50
we've seen it because people will hold on to emotion.
26:53
And this is one of the key parts of empathy that people don't
26:55
realise and people hold on to emotion because they're waiting
26:58
for somebody to either bodily or verbally say I've seen it, I'd
27:02
love to know more about that. So one of the key things do to
27:05
help people step away from that emotion, which eventually will
27:08
potentially lead to aggression or the opposite, which is
27:11
withdrawal, is to actually say I've seen it, I'd like to know
27:15
more. It's that curiosity piece again,
27:17
you know, I'd like to know more. And another way you can set that
27:20
up as well is make it very, very clear in an agenda, even if it's
27:23
a very, very loose agenda that we're going to set this time
27:26
aside for talking about the past.
27:28
So this is the stuff that's gone wrong.
27:30
This is how we feel about it. This is what we wish hadn't have
27:34
happened, right? That's the line.
27:36
Now we're going to talk about how we make sure this doesn't
27:38
happen again. So splitting your, your
27:41
conversation in the past and future.
27:43
So it's very, very defined so that people know that, you know,
27:47
we've talked about the past, we've emptied that emotion out,
27:50
right? How do we now move that forward
27:53
and how do we agree on what the next steps are going to be?
27:56
So for me it's about splitting it up as well.
28:00
When you say dealing with what's happened in the past, that's
28:04
when blaming can arise. So how do you stamp out that
28:11
kind of blame game that people do, especially if they feel very
28:14
under pressure projects? There's a lot of money at stake
28:17
and time at stake and serious repercussions.
28:19
So although many project professionals want to have an
28:23
open, transparent culture within the team, but often it's not
28:28
them that this has set the culture of working with people
28:31
from from different organisations that have their
28:33
own way of doing things. How can you deal with that issue
28:37
of blame as it arises, and how, As a corollary to that, how can
28:41
you set up a meeting where that blame is just not allowed to
28:45
happen? I think one thing that can be
28:49
really useful is to set ground rules for any meeting or
28:52
conversation you're having. So right at the beginning, often
28:55
as the facilitator, you might have your own set of ground
28:58
rules. So that's, you know, this is not
29:00
going to be a discussion about personalities.
29:02
This is not going to be about individual accountability.
29:05
It's about us taking accountability as a team.
29:08
We always say, you know, you have to listen generously,
29:11
although whatever your ground rules might might be.
29:13
And then perhaps offer the group to contribute a couple of their
29:16
own ground rules. And then normally we have them
29:19
written up so they're on a flip chart or on a screen in the room
29:23
and you get the group to agree. But we are going to abide by
29:26
these ground rules to ensure the success of this meeting or
29:29
conversation. And then at the point, you know,
29:32
inevitably it will slip back at some points into unhelpful
29:35
behaviours from people of the group.
29:37
You can just remind people, you know, gently, just going back to
29:40
these ground rules that we agreed at the beginning, Let's
29:43
try and stick to them because they're going to help us get the
29:45
outcome that we need. Thanks Sophie Marie, any other
29:49
tips you'd add? Yeah.
29:52
My very, very first ground role in any facilitated conversation
29:56
is speak from the eye. I feel like this because as
30:01
opposed to you've made me feel like this or you're the person
30:05
that's created this situation. So what we're trying to do by
30:09
getting to people to speak from the eye is its natural
30:11
accountability and responsibility for how you're
30:13
feeling, but it's also about not directing it personally at
30:19
somebody else because you're perfectly entitled to feel the
30:21
way that you do. And actually that needs to live
30:24
and breathe in these conversations, but it's how it's
30:27
positioned. So my very first ground rule is
30:29
we speak from the eye. If you want to share something,
30:32
you need to take ownership of how you're feeling.
30:35
And that's one of the ground rules that in any meeting that
30:38
I'm running, whether it's the mediation side or the team
30:40
facilitation side that I do doesn't matter where it's always
30:44
speak from the eye. And I've done some really,
30:47
really testy conversations between managers and union
30:49
representatives at quite senior level.
30:52
And it's quite interesting seeing how quickly people do
30:55
regress back into the you've made me feel and the pointy
30:58
finger and all the rest of it. And immediately when you say,
31:01
OK, the beginning of today's session, we agreed some ground
31:04
rules, the first one being speak from the eye.
31:06
Are you doing that and actually asking it as a question as well?
31:10
Are you doing that? Are you embodying those ground
31:13
rules rather than being a bit of a parent and going, you're not
31:15
doing this, which is kind of exacerbating that as well, you
31:19
know, asking them, are you avoiding by the ground rules?
31:22
They all go a little bit. Oh, actually we're not OK,
31:24
reset. And another way you can
31:27
challenge that as well is just jumping in every so often with
31:29
summaries. So as a facilitator, one of the
31:32
things I had to learn very early on was how to summarise.
31:35
And actually summarising gives people breathing space.
31:38
So when they are getting into blaming language, OK everybody
31:41
just step back a second. I'm just going to summarise what
31:44
I think I've heard and I automatically summarise it in
31:46
terms of this person feels like this, this person feels like
31:50
this, but this person's frustrated because of this.
31:52
So I push them back into that accountability place as well.
31:56
Thank you. That's a really useful tip.
31:58
We've been talking about conversations where you know
32:02
it's going to happen and perhaps you've got time to prepare or
32:05
perhaps you're the one leading it.
32:07
Have you got any advice for people who find themselves in an
32:10
unexpected, essential, difficult conversation like you?
32:13
You just suddenly boss says, can you come jump on a call now?
32:17
Can you get to my office now and you've got no idea what's going
32:19
to happen. Do you have any advice to people
32:22
who find themselves in that situation?
32:25
Yeah. And I think that's something,
32:27
you know, that we've all probably experienced, isn't it?
32:30
Just something completely out of the blue where whether it's your
32:32
boss or your client pulls you aside and says actually this
32:36
thing you've done isn't good enough or we're going to have to
32:39
completely change what you think your job is, You know, something
32:42
totally unexpected. And I think all those things
32:44
we've been talking about are going to happen.
32:46
You know, your nervous response is going to be triggered.
32:49
Your body's going to be pumping adrenaline into you and you're
32:52
probably going to slip into one. What, however you respond to
32:55
those situations, whether it's withdrawing, whether it's being
32:59
very defensive, whatever it might be.
33:01
So I think the first step is just practising recognising
33:05
that. So to recognise, OK, I'm feeling
33:08
defensive right now because I've had this bolt from the blue and
33:12
it shocked me and I'm it's triggered my nervous system, you
33:15
know, doing the breathing, trying to regulate that, doing
33:18
that, you know, even if you have time to do that reframing that
33:20
Marie was talking about to be saying, OK, this is unexpected,
33:25
but I need to hear this. Just starting to do that to
33:28
regulate your response. But I would also say if it's a
33:31
total bolt from the blue, definitely listen to what the
33:34
person is saying. I think it's totally acceptable
33:38
to say this has been a big surprise to me.
33:41
I really want to listen to what you're saying, but I need a bit
33:44
more time to be able to respond. And I think that is, you know, a
33:49
very reasonable request. So rather than being confronted
33:52
with something that you weren't expecting and having to respond
33:55
right away to say, you know, would it be OK if I go away for
33:59
whatever it might be? Obviously really depends on the
34:02
urgency of the situation. Maybe it's just 10 minutes,
34:05
maybe it's overnight. And can we pick it up again
34:09
tomorrow so that you are able to get yourself in a better place
34:12
to really listen and be able to have a useful, constructive
34:16
conversation? Sophie, that's brilliant.
34:19
And Marie, anything you'd add to that?
34:22
So taking the break is definitely important because
34:24
that actually allows both sides to step back from the emotion of
34:27
the immediacy of of that situation because the other
34:30
person will be in fight or flight delivering that
34:32
information. So, so taking that break is
34:36
really, definitely really important so that you have a
34:38
better conversation. The thing for me is the more we
34:42
practise these skills in situations where we can prepare,
34:47
it's a lot easier to then drop into that same behaviour when it
34:51
is unexpected. So one of the things that I have
34:55
the luxury of being able to do is being able to stay in that
34:58
mindset all the time because it's my job.
35:01
My job is to listen. I don't have to have the
35:03
answers. And unfortunately, when your day
35:05
job is having to fix things and having to put things right, it's
35:08
very difficult to switch between the two.
35:10
So my view would be don't wait to practise these skills,
35:13
practise them in all areas of your life because it's not just
35:17
about project management, It's not just about the conversation
35:19
you have with your colleagues, it's the conversations you have
35:22
with your friends. It's the conversations you have
35:23
with your parents and your kids. You know when your kids don't
35:26
want to put their shoes on in the morning, actually going into
35:28
fight or fight with them really doesn't help because all they do
35:32
is they become even more childlike and you become even
35:35
more parental like and that reinforces those challenging
35:39
behaviours. So it is about just taking a
35:42
step back, taking time to breathe, all that stuff.
35:45
Sophie and I have talked about taking that time to recognise
35:49
that for that person that is their truth in that moment.
35:51
Whether we agree with it or not is irrelevant, it's the
35:54
recognition, it's their truth. Doing that all the time means
35:57
that when you are faced with a bolt from the blue, it's a lot
36:00
easier to do it because you're not trying to flip into
36:03
something you're not used to doing.
36:05
How do you become an expert at handling these essential
36:08
difficult conversations as well? Most of all, it's about
36:12
practising, you know, and if you always avoid difficult
36:15
conversations from the little micro, Can you please unload the
36:19
dishwasher today? Do the big stuff at work, then
36:23
you don't, you don't pick up those skills.
36:25
And it, as we've already discussed, it's not something
36:27
we're taught at school or even largely in the workplace.
36:31
So it has to be something that you kind of pursue yourself.
36:34
You do try and address those difficult conversations time and
36:38
time again so that you build up that confidence.
36:40
And also it by doing that, you disrupt that cycle where in your
36:44
head you think this conversation is going to be awful.
36:46
So you put it off or you get really nervous about it.
36:49
And so then it goes really badly.
36:51
So then the next time it comes round in your head you think, Oh
36:54
no, it's going to be awful because the last conversation I
36:56
had like this was awful. But if you practise and you do
36:59
your best to make the conversation as constructive as
37:02
possible, as time goes on, you think actually this probably
37:04
won't be so bad because the last few conversations I had like
37:07
this were fine and we got what we needed out of them.
37:11
So definitely practising. But I think in terms of
37:13
behaviour with the risk of really repeating myself, the
37:17
number one thing you can probably do is just listen.
37:20
And that's the one thing that we don't do enough of is just
37:23
listening to other people and not always jumping either to
37:26
defence or what we often do is to solutions.
37:30
Because sometimes, you know, it's actually not helpful to
37:33
jump straight to solutions that actually just sitting in the
37:36
moment and listening and can be the most powerful thing you can
37:39
do. I want to thank both of you so
37:43
much for your time and the expertise you've shared with our
37:46
listeners. There's a tonne of really useful
37:50
stuff that people hopefully will be able to take away and put
37:53
into practise from the next essential, challenging,
37:57
difficult conversation that will happen.
37:59
So thanks so much again for your time.
38:01
It's been a pleasure speaking to you.
38:04
Thank you. Thank.
38:05
You. Thanks again to Marie and Sophie
38:15
for joining us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast.
38:19
Hopefully you'll put some of their advice into practise, not
38:22
only when it comes to thinking about and preparing for tough
38:25
conversations, but also how to manage them in a positive way.
38:29
Anyway, don't forget to look out for more episodes, all to rate
38:32
and review us. Wherever you get your podcasts.
38:35
We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and
38:38
suggestions by emailing us at APM Podcast at
38:41
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38:49
For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.