Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Patricia Engler: Understanding ‘Modern Marxism’ In A Woke New World

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Patricia Engler: Understanding ‘Modern Marxism’ In A Woke New World · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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  defending biblical Christianity.
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  No topic, off limits.
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  And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
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  Hey, friends.
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  Thanks so much for tuning in, for sharing the podcast, and God bless you, Mary Christmas
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  season.
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  We'll be saying Christmas a lot because some people don't say it enough, but I want to
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  just share one of the comments we received recently before we get to today's guest.
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  And this is from Justin, and Justin is from New Mexico.
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  He said, greetings.
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  I've been listening to you since summer of 2022.
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  I stand a healthy diet of good biblical programming in addition to your podcast, listening
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  also to Jan Markelle, Cross Talk America, Stand in the Gap American Pastors Network, and
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  I like how all of you platform a lot of the same guests, and that they are recurring guests
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  as well.
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  Your program and others provide much comfort, helped open my eyes to the world's agenda,
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  and have encouraged me to stand my ground in matters of faith and truth.
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  There's much more I could say in that regard, but I'll leave it for now.
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  Although I do reside in New Mexico, which is not my home, I'm originally from Wisconsin.
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  Thank you for your ministry, being a light and voice of reason in the darkness that surrounds
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  us.
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  God bless.
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  Justin, thank you, brother.
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  God bless you, and shout out to New Mexico.
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  So there's a brand new book out that I think is very, very important.
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  And Christians need to understand, in contrast, to Christianity, Marxism, a very dangerous
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  ideology.
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  There's a book called Modern Marxism by Patricia Engler, our guest today.
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  It's a guide for Christians in a woke new world.
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  Again, it's called Modern Marxism, and it's at Answers in Genesis, the website AnswersInGenesis.org.
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  And you can go to the store there and look for Modern Marxism, the book.
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  So the description before we bring her on, Western civilization is rapidly changing.
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  Society no longer tolerates biblical thinking, but views Christians as oppressors who must
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  be canceled.
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  How do these trends trace back to a false gospel rooted in Marxism and how can Christians
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  respond?
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  Also, this false gospel permeates today's cultures, classrooms, and even churches, placing
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  more pressure on Christians who hold to biblical authority.
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  So you're going to be blessed by today's guest and the book, Patricia Engler is a Christian
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  apologist, speaker, author, and podcast host for Answers in Genesis.
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  She joined AIG Canada as a speaker, writer, and youth outreach coordinator in 2019 before
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  transferring to the US in 2022.
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  She also serves as an answers news panelist and co-hosts zero compromise, AIG's podcast
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  for young adults.
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  I love that, Patricia.
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  I know there's more to your story, and you've also got another book prepared to thrive,
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  a survival guide for Christian students, but let's bring her on right now, Jeff, Patricia,
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  good to see you.
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  Thanks for your time today.
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  Thanks so much for having me on, great to be here.
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  So are you originally from Canada, then?
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  I am, yes, I grew up in Alberta.
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  Okay, my wife is from Toronto, and so we've got that connection there.
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  So tell us about how you got connected with Answers in Genesis, and then we'll dive
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  into the book Modern Marxism.
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  Absolutely.
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  It is a total God story.
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  I can't go into the whole thing here, but I heard about Answers in Genesis when I was
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  14.
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  Ken Ham came and spoke at a homeschool conference I was at.
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  God totally opened my eyes to the need for apologetics and the biblical authority message.
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  I knew I wanted to do apologetics after that, and help Christian students keep their
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  faith during university, traveled around the world interviewing Christian students, came
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  back, blogged about that, God used that blog to connect me to Answers in Genesis Canada
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  through a crazy series of events, and then the Lord led me to transition down here to
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  the States.
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  Wow, that's excellent.
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  So well, it's so good to connect with you, I've known about your ministry for several
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  years, and it's good to finally have you on.
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  So the book, simple question, what led you to write a book on Marxism at this time in
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  our history and where the church is at today?
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  It's honestly never a topic I thought I would have to write about.
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  I thought communism is kind of a giant that's been slayed a few times already, but no.
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  Actually, my very first clue was when I was doing my research with university students,
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  very first university I visited in Canada.
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  I saw a poster that said capitalism is war and racism, violence, patriarchy, colonialism,
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  students to join Canada's young communist league.
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  That was my first clue to how all these big hot topics we're hearing about are being
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  exploited for a Marxist agenda.
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  So then after I came back from my travels, I started hearing more and more about this
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  agenda and the need for churches to have tools for teaching young people how to deal
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  with it.
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  So that's really what then led me to go on another research trip backpack around Marxism,
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  tracing the history and consequences of it, and then took some of the themes from that
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  research and then wrote the book about that.
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  So it's been about a three-year process to get this book out, but we have it now.
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  So very, very grateful.
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  Well, it's very important.
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  And as you said, you didn't expect to have to write on it.
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  I think part of the problem is a lot of today's pulpits are silent on the dangers of communism,
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  Marxism, socialism, and they're not helping congregations connect the dots.
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  Pastors are not equipping the saints in God's word.
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  And so I just want to mention the structure of the book.
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  Modern Marxism, three parts, part one, introduces the problem and explains how Marxism differs
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  from God's word.
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  And part two exposes common strategies, I mean, which revolutionary agendas wield when
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  they're trying to replace Christian societies with totalitarian regimes.
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  And part three offers practical tools for a biblical response.
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  So you get into a lot, Patricia.
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  One of the things I wanted to ask you about is right in the first part, the gathering storm,
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  social credit systems, ESG scores, the push for access economy.
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  Talk to us a little bit about that because a lot of people are not familiar with this.
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  Social credit system, they think of China maybe and they're not familiar with what's going
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  on actually right underneath our noses in America.
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  So please share just a little bit about that.
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  True thing.
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  So social credit systems are basically behavior points systems where you get points for
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  having good behavior, you lose points for having bad behavior, and then you gain or lose
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  privileges based on that behavior score.
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  So it's a way to turn, to turn rights into privileges that can be taken away.
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  For example, in China, business insider reported that people can lose social credit for, say,
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  driving sloppy or playing too many video games.
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  And then with the social credit, you can't access, say, travel or higher education.
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  That would be considered rights in many free places.
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  So again, this is a way to control people and control reality by forcing people to conform
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  to a certain definition of morality.
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  It's a way to control truth, which is what totalitarian regimes like communism need to do.
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  So then how the access economy fits into that, that's a system where instead of owning
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  things, people would access items and services based on their social credit.
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  That's the type of system that you might think of as normally being in places like China.
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  But actually, I explained in the book, there is even a document from several years ago
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  from my country, Canada, pushing for this sort of access economy based on social credit
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  rather than ownership.
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  And if you look at reports from the world economic forum, as far back as 2012, you can see
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  they've also been very keen on developing this sort of sharing economy that has a lot
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  of overlap with that access economy, the circular economy.
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  All of these emphasize other things besides ownership, sharing and access, and it's really
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  a way to reduce private property, which again ties in with communism.
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  And private property can be, you know, you can look in the Bible and find verses that support
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  private property, property ownership, and people that come against that are a little
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  naive, I think, especially in the church.
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  And I think that's why I'm thankful for your book.
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  We need a better understanding of how we can respond to these ideas that have dangerously
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  been accepted in a great part of our culture.
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  Chapter two, Patricia, you mentioned the worldview basics, a Marxist worldview, but also four
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  ancient lies.
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  Tell us a little bit about that.
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  Yeah, so these are lies that you find in all kinds of false teachings going back as
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  far as the Garden of Eden, the original lies to Eve.
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  So number one is that God's word is not completely true.
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  Number two is that truth is up to humans.
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  Number three is that you can be like God, which is part of trying to control truth for
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  yourself and define your own destiny and identity.
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  And then finally, the four lies that Jesus is not quite who scripture says he is.
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  We need to do something else for our salvation.
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  There has to be some sort of workspace component and we're involved somehow in our own redemption.
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  Those are all false teachings that you find as well in Marxism.
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  So there's a great article, a companion article to your book that's a little excerpt on
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  the website, answers in Genesis, and I want to just touch on that real quick.
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  It's called our capitalism and Christianity worse than socialism.
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  And it's amazing that you even have to ask that question or that you have to answer that
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  question, I should say, because first, yeah, I go back to one of the past elections.
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  Maybe eight years ago, think eight years ago, 60 some percent of youth in America, not
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  just college students, but young people, supported socialism.
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  They were all behind Bernie Sanders at the time and you're thinking, well, how did we
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  get here?
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  And so there's been lies that have been taught about capitalism and lies that have been taught
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  about socialism.
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  We don't hear the truth about socialism.
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  So you talk about that capitalism and religion.
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  This is one of the objections, right?
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  Capitalism and religion have done and continue to do more damage than socialism ever could.
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  Now most informed Americans and Christians will look at that at face value and just kind
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  of laugh and they go, how can people believe that?
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  But here's one of the objections.
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  So go ahead and share a little bit about that Patricia.
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  Yeah, for sure.
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  So like he said, there's at least nine objections I cover in the book that do come up
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  commonly, even if they might seem strange to Christians.
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  And this is one of them.
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  So people will say, oh, well, socialism is just about helping people.
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  Christianity has been responsible for all sorts of war and violence and slavery and things
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  in the past.
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  So first of all, we can establish common ground with people raising the subjection by saying
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  absolutely evil is a problem.
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  We can agree about that.
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  We can agree as well that it's grievous when people abuse capitalism by idolatrously
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  treating money and by prioritizing profits over God and his image bearers people.
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  So we can agree on all that based on our biblical world view, but if we're going to judge
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  a world view, we need to do it based on the consequences of applying that world view consistently.
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  And we see in scripture that God actually gives us really good guard with guardrails
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  for using private property well for practicing voluntary generosity for not falling into
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  things like idolatry and covetousness and greed and for not exploiting people and not
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  oppressing others with wealth and user extortion and so on.
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  So the Bible actually gives us great tools for using wealth properly.
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  However, socialism is based on that, if you go back in history based on the atheistic
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  system that Karl Marx came up, his world view ideology.
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  And that secular foundation doesn't actually give you a logical reason for explaining where
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  morality comes from and why humans matter in the first place.
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  So that's why people in the past and communist regimes who murdered millions of people in
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  the name of their ideologies were being consistent with their Marxist worldviews, whereas Christians
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  in the past who hypocritically went against Jesus' teachings by promoting even problems
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  like racism in the past and that type of thing that we're acting inconsistently with Christianity.
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  So we need to actually look at what is the world view behind this is it consistent with
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  these consequences or not and you'll find that the Bible ruins every single time.
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  I think that's an excellent point or several points there and in this article which is
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  from the book, you say, let's think about the consistent application of a biblical world
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  view in contrast to Marxism based worldviews and it says, when we're evaluating a world
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  view based on its consequences, we need to look at the results of applying that worldview
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  consistently, not inconsistently.
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  And I think you just explained that in part of what you just shared because some people,
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  they like to pick and choose, don't they?
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  What fits their narrative or their maybe unbiblical worldview that they like to pick?
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  Maybe some things that are done in the name of God which really aren't Christian and the
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  people that are doing these things in the name of God probably aren't even, if they don't
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  have a biblical worldview, but then they blame all of Christendom, right?
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  They're all of Scripture or God on the evil.
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  So would you care to speak to that before we move on?
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  Yeah, for sure because that is a type of self-defeating logic.
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  It's called the stolen concept fallacy where to even say that these are issues in the
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  first place and that things like hypocrisy are wrong, you have to borrow moral ideas from
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  a biblical worldview that atheism doesn't give you a foundation for.
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  So that's another really important point is that only a biblical worldview can let you
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  criticize the problems with misusing systems like capitalism in the first place.
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  Excellent.
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  So friends, we are with Patricia Engler, she's with Answers in Genesis and the book Modern
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  Marxism, A Guide for Christians in a Woke World is Available at Answers in Genesis.org.
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  Just go to the store there and when we come back, another great topic we're going to talk
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  about, does Marxism fail because it's misunderstood and misapplied?
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  We hear that often, hey socialism or Marxism would work if he just had it done rightly.
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  But no, that's, we're going to talk about that when we come back on World View Matters.
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  Today's show is brought to you by Harbinger's Daily, World News Biblically Understood.
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  Stay informed at harbingerstaley.com.
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  Hey friends, thank you so much for supporting World View Matters.
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  And God uses that.
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  I want to ask Patricia now about this lie that Marxism or communism or socialism fails
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  because they're just misunderstood or they're not carried out properly.
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  And one of the lines from this excerpt from the book, nearly two centuries after Marx
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  lived, scholars of Marxism continued debating the details of what Marx himself believed.
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  Stop right there, Patricia Angler, and just help shed some light on this for us because
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  that a lot of people say that if it was only carried out properly, well, there's a debate
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  on what even he wrote or believed and what is properly carried out.
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  Go ahead.
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  Yeah, for sure.
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  So actually, if you go to the the birthplace of Karl Marx, there's a museum in the house
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  where he lived.
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  If you go in there, there's a whole wall talking about how Marxism's writings are kind of
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  fragmented.
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  They were inconsistent even among his own corpus of writings.
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  So it can be really hard to kind of tease out what he actually thought.
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  And a lot of these philosophers are thinking change throughout their lifetime as well.
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  So if you quote them in one place, it might not be the same thing that they believe later
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  in life.
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  So it can be really hard to detangle some of these things.
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  So Marxism can be misinterpreted and misapplied, but you still see those very common themes
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  throughout his writings.
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  And certainly, he started with a faulty worldview foundation, which is why when you try
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  to apply his writings, they fail every single time.
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  See, I like what what this says, and you can expound on that a little bit more.
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  Even more significant was Marx's shaky worldview foundation, rejecting God's word, left
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  Marx with the wrong view of humanity's nature, core problem, and redemptive hope.
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  And so he mistakenly looked at real industrial revolution era problems through the lens
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  of this faulty worldview, and of course that led him to propose the wrong solutions.
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  So if you're not seeing the world accurately or truthfully, like sin being the core problem,
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  right, of humanity, they're thinking all kinds of this to make up all these other things,
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  you're going to have the wrong solutions.
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  Would you like to speak to that a little bit more before I move on?
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  Yeah, absolutely.
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  So like he said, Marx is really teaching a false gospel.
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  So we know from Genesis, God created a perfect world.
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  Humans are creatures made in God's image.
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  Our problem is that we have sinned, rejected, God's authority,
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  and the result of that has to be death and suffering.
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  But God provided Jesus as a way of salvation, and he is the one who can alone redeem us.
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  But of course, Marxism believed that humans are self-creators.
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  We're supposed to just shape reality in line with what we want it to be.
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  The problem is that he believes socioeconomic conditions keep us from being able to do that.
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  So because Marx was teaching this faulty view that also saw that the solution to oppression
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  has to be revolution, the workers, the exploited people have to change the socio-economic conditions
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  that Marx thought was a problem.
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  And then people can live happily ever after in this communist society.
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  The problem is, though like he said, he completely neglected that humans are sinners.
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  So as one of the people I quote in my book says,
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  any kind of attempt to achieve utopia by human efforts can only lead to distopia
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  because it's sinful humans making themselves the authority for truth,
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  and that never, ever, ever, ever ends well.
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  So you can't just try to reapply these ideas,
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  tweak some things, and hope that they eventually work,
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  because it's like trying to build a building on a flawed foundation.
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  Every time you try to construct it, it is going to fall,
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  and probably hurt a lot of people in the process.
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  Amen. Very well put Patricia. Thank you.
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  Let's jump to part two in your book on agendas.
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  And I want to get to the church, because chapter six is called
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  firing at the foundations, strategies to break down the current society.
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  And there's one of the bullet points,
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  weaken the church, and this is part of their agenda, right?
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  This is what they're trying to do, but they've, in my opinion, sadly,
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  they've been quite successful at.
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  And you have blatant and subtle methods.
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  So talk to us a little bit about that.
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  How do they weaken the church, which weakens the family,
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  which weakens society? Go ahead.
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  Yeah, so the blatant method is where you actively attack the church,
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  de-platform clergy, close church buildings, and that type of thing.
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  But then there's a subtle method, because sometimes people
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  resist when you use that sort of active strategy.
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  So people who tried to reformulate Marx's ideas,
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  one of them being Antonio Gramsci, a communist,
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  who lived around the 30s, he wrote that you need to try to use the subtle method
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  where you infiltrate the church from the inside
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  and kind of recruit people from the church to be agents of revolution
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  so that instead of the church being what he would consider to be an oppressive entity,
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  you are using the church to actually promote Marxism.
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  And one really easy way to do that is just to redefine some language.
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  So for instance, the Bible uses a lot of terms like justice and helping the oppressed.
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  And in scripture, that means actually doing righteousness
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  helping people who are legitimately being exploited and so on,
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  vulnerable groups, widows, orphans, and the poor.
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  So it comes down to personal actions and attitudes.
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  But Marxism takes those words like justice and oppression and totally hijacks them,
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  putting them into this false gospel of Marxism that says people are either oppressors
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  or oppressed based not on their actions, but on their identity.
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  For Marx, it was if you were wealthy versus a worker,
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  for later neo-Marxist, it's if you're maybe a man or a light-skinned person or able-bodied,
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  then you're an oppressor, if you're Christian, you're oppressor,
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  if you don't identify with those categories, then you're oppressed.
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  Even things like LGBTQ, you would say that, or Marxists would say,
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  heterosexuals are oppressors and then everyone else is like this oppressed minority.
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  So then they say that justice requires redistributing power from the oppressors
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  to the oppressed. And then that is how they define justice in terms of their redefinition
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  of oppression based on identity rather than actions. So that's one of the subtle ways that you
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  get Marxism into the church is by redefining language to promote a different worldview.
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  And they've redefined a lot of words successfully. It's been quite eye-opening, I think.
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  And chapter 8, I just want to mention great points throughout the book Patricia,
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  how to start a revolution, promote division, weaponize words, leverage crises,
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  inflame emotion, demand allegiance, and erase the past. Man, do we see that throughout American
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  culture? I think of education. And let's go back to chapter 7, conditioning the culture.
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  You do that in part by getting the youth, right? And by dumbing down society,
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  I know you probably talk about education in different chapters. Can you speak to that for a moment?
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  Yeah, for sure. So one of the strategies that you can use to condition a culture for revolution,
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  like you said, is to trivialize society, which means dumbing it down essentially so people don't
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  want or know how to think for themselves makes them really easy to just kind of reprogram however you
• 23:22
  want. And one of the ways we see that is through education. So now I like to say the three
• 23:28
  ours taught in many schools are not so much reading, writing, and arithmetic as rhetoric,
• 23:32
  radicalism, and recreation. So schools, I explain this a lot more in chapter 5, but schools are
• 23:39
  now discipleship centers for teaching kids to be neo-Marxist activists. Because if you want to change
• 23:45
  a culture, you have to recruit the young people, their society's future decision makers. So there's
• 23:50
  a lot more about that in the book as well. So we've only got three minutes left and I want to jump to
• 23:55
  chapter 10. And you can bullet point some of these for us, counter revolutionary strategies.
• 24:01
  10, I'm sorry, 12 tactics for Christian resistance. Excellent. I'm so glad you put this in here.
• 24:07
  Patricia, defend churches and families, disciple youth, harness the power of media, art, education,
• 24:14
  and technology. The left, the demoniacs have been really good at doing that as using entertainment
• 24:19
  and culture. But go ahead and speak to whatever you like in this chapter. There's so many great
• 24:24
  points on counter revolutionary strategies. Yeah, for sure. It can be discouraging to read the
• 24:30
  first couple parts of a book like this and just think, well, I guess the society's just all going
• 24:34
  to fall apart. But there's actually a lot that we can be doing about it and God's word gives us
• 24:38
  the basis for doing that. So yeah, in that chapter, I list a number of them, the ones you mentioned,
• 24:43
  as well as using technology wisely, defending human life from God's word to resist those dehumanization
• 24:48
  strategies, resisting different brainwashing tactics like censorship and manipulation of emotions
• 24:55
  that come up a lot. Living above reproach, just being a good witness so people won't have a good
• 25:00
  opportunity to oppose us, overcoming evil with good, knowing your legal rights. There's a lot
• 25:05
  of things that we can be doing as well as like you said, defending the church and family,
• 25:09
  discipling youth. And those are ways to counter the strategies that neo-Marxis themselves are using.
• 25:15
  So yeah, there's there's a lot more in there. And as you said rightly so, you cover a lot of
• 25:21
  heavy information and content that can be potentially discouraging. But I like how you mentioned
• 25:27
  one of the last bullet points here, overcome evil with good Romans 1221. In that chapter, Romans 2,
• 25:33
  do not conform. And there's a problem right there with the church, too many in the church, conforming
• 25:39
  to the world instead of staying true to God's word. Do not conform to the world's ways, but be
• 25:44
  transformed by the renewing of your mind. And in the very end of Romans 12, do not be overcome by evil.
• 25:49
  So there will be evil, do not be overcome by it, but overcome evil with good. So I'm glad you
• 25:55
  landed on that, you know, those positive notes and the things that people can take away and how
• 26:00
  we can apply some of the things against what we're seeing. So last words, we've got a minute and a half
• 26:06
  Patricia. What do you want to leave people with and what we'll send people to the website?
• 26:10
  Yeah, for sure. So the very last chapter of the book is just offers some encouragement from people
• 26:15
  who have been through hard times and persecution before. And one of them is the importance of
• 26:19
  remembering to we have to resolve to follow Jesus unconditionally regardless of whether he does
• 26:25
  for us what we'd like. That's just part of calling him Lord. So we have to resolve to follow him
• 26:29
  no matter what happens. We can expect it will be hard, but the great thing is we know it will be
• 26:34
  worth it. Eternity is worth it. Souls are worth it. Jesus is worth it. And I end people on the
• 26:40
  I end the book on the note that Jesus is the victor. He has overcome the world and to stand on the
• 26:47
  side of the overcomers we have to stand with Jesus. So definitely I want to encourage people to if
• 26:52
  you do not have a personal relationship with Jesus now is the time put your faith in hope in him.
• 26:58
  Yes, I think with all the darkness we've been seeing throughout the last I know several decades
• 27:03
  and maybe in the last several years specifically, I think there's more opportunities for Christians
• 27:08
  to share the hope because people are looking, more people are searching. The website friends answers
• 27:13
  in Genesis.org go to the store. The book is called Modern Marxism Patricia Engler. It's so great
• 27:20
  to connect with you. Lord willing, we'll stay in touch. Thanks for your time.
• 27:24
  Sounds good. Thanks so much. You're most welcome. All right, guys, of another very important book.
• 27:30
  Man, I knew there's a lot of books out there and I wish we could talk about more, but we try to
• 27:34
  bring in the ones that we think are important enough for you to get and be able to understand and
• 27:40
  then apply. So thanks for sharing the podcast friends and your prayers. God bless you and as always,
• 27:46
  keep speaking the truth about things that matter.