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Learning With the Land: Building Sustainability Mindsets Through Experience w/ John Cannings · IB Unplugged

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Welcome to IB Unplugged, a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators
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that tackles your submitted questions and challenges by connecting you with
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experts and peers who share their ideas and stories from real classrooms.
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Welcome to IB Unplugged.
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This time, both of us joining you from here in Stockholm.
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It's nice to be here.
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Yeah, it's great to have you here.
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We, we're in the nice time of the year where we have sunshine all day long.
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All night too. Yeah, I wasn't used to that at all.
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I went to sleep in the light.
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I woke up in the lights and my body was not ready for that.
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No, but that's why we recruit people to Stockholm
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during the summer and not the winter, where you're surrounded by darkness.
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I get it, I get it.
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So, yeah, we got to do some episodes here in Stockholm together.
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And, today's episode, we get to talk with John coming in from Switzerland.
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So John Cannings is somebody that I've gotten the chance to work with since 2017.
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We met working on our geography resources for Kognity.
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He's been working as a geography teacher and a cast coordinator,
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working with experiential learning.
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So he's been deep in the the IB world doing everything from the workshops,
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authoring books, the whole IB bingo card.
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I think he could hit kind of every square there.
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So he today talks a lot about sustainability.
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And yeah, it was great to to talk with him.
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Definitely. I think you're going to get a lot from this episode.
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If you've ever wondered how can we authentically create sustainable schools
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or what's the role of a leader in creating that sustainable school?
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Are there is there anything worth, Cass off
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site sort of trip or going off sites to get that sustainability focus?
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Or even just how do you take students from being aware
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that sustainability is an issue to how they can start to take some action,
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then there's a lot in this episode for you.
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Yeah. So let's bring John in.
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Hi John.
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Welcome to IB Unplugged. Thanks for joining us.
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Hi, Courtney.
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It's a pleasure to see you and meet with you again.
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It's a blast from the past, from my perspective.
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And, of course, to meet John this morning.
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Nice to meet you as well, John. Looking forward to our conversation today.
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Yeah.
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So, John, we've worked with each other for quite a while now.
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You were one of the first people that I worked with at Kognity back in 2017.
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You've done a lot since then and you've done plenty before then as well.
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And I want to kick this conversation off with just asking
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why you chose to go into education.
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Well, I guess this sounds a bit trite, but I suppose the the reason was that
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I felt that I could make a difference to trying to make the world a better place.
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Now, whether that's been the case, and that's for other people to judge,
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I like that.
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I think many educators go into it with that idea of like,
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here's my way, that I can have a positive impact.
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So I like that.
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What about your new role?
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What do you what do you do now?
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What's your role and what are you focusing on with regard to sustainable education?
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A couple of things.
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First of all, I suppose in a way I’ve been
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I hate to use this word influencer, but I've written a number of blogs.
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About sustainability.
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I ran with,
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a brilliant educator called Alexandra Catalog,
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a series of webinars
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in which we interviewed people who, making
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changes in school and,
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I guess the most recent thing I've been involved with is,
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eco school Swiss
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Excuse my French pronunciation.
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As a jury
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member in which we've been going in to schools
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to have a look at, with school,
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qualifiers for one of their awards
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and, that's take me into,
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a variety of different schools.
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Swiss school, international school, boarding school.
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So it's been very interesting to see how the different schools approach that.
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Great.
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And yeah, we,
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the conversation today, we're going to talk a lot about rethinking
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sustainability in schools
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and kind of diving into some of the work that you've done.
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But before we do, we wanted to do a little series
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of some rapid fire questions of things that we wanted
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to learn more about, for better or for worse.
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So I will kick off with a very important one of is the coffee better
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in Australia, where you're from, or Switzerland where you live?
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Okay.
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Well, that's a hard question.
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No one likes flat whites as well as they do in Australia, that's all.
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Oh, okay. That's tough one.
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All right. Here's another one.
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What's better authoring books or leading workshops?
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Both of them
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are really interesting experiences.
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I think, authoring the books
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for me, one of the biggest challenges has been, working with an editor,
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particularly. Working with me.
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But that's been really good because it helps you to focus on things
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that give you a different insight and approach to the way you're doing things.
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I really enjoy the,
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social contact of workshops,
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and also it helps you to have a broader understanding
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of how people perceive things in different, very different environments.
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And, you know, from doing that both online and face to face.
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You know, I've dealt with people from even places,
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like Burkina Faso, which I thought I'd never have anyone in contact with.
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Fair. Next one, if you could only be either a cast coordinator
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at a local school or lead geography workshops, what would you prefer?
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I think co-ordinator. Oh, okay.
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I'm sure we're going to get into that, into the impact that you think
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that we can have with him or a cast coordinator.
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What about okay, with regard to workshops and thinking about that and teaching
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students, do you prefer teaching students or do you prefer teaching teachers?
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I think at this stage of things, I definitely say teaching teachers.
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I've been there, done that, the teaching students.
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And given that
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I stopped teaching students 11 years ago, I actually did,
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had, last November,
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I actually, so from August to November, I was actually back in the classroom,
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you know, Swiss school for,
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which was an interesting experience with younger kids mainly.
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And it was certainly challenging. I was pretty rusty.
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I have to say, to start with.
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So, yeah, I think that that answers that question.
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Yeah, yeah. Fair enough.
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I have a confession, John.
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It's been a long time since I read your, your CV and your biography the first time.
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And I still have no idea what it means that you're a chartered geographer.
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Can you tell me what it means?
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That means I'm a fellow of the Royal Geographical Society.
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Okay.
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And the reason I was asked to be that was I was actually chair of,
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the humanities committee a long time ago.
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Since then, one of the things that I've been looking for people to do
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is actually to promote
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and lead geography in different contexts,
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which I have been doing obviously
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as a school teacher, as a workshop leader,
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and as you know, I've written a bit of stuff about geography as well.
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So, and I'm still doing that.
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I've written a couple of things this year about,
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demographic changes in the world
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and the impact they're likely to have.
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And, I've also still retained
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a role as an examiner for the extended essay in geography, with the IB.
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Nice.
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Well, John, that's that's the rapid fire round.
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You did great. You got all the way through there.
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And I feel like
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with those warm up questions and obviously what you've just shared now
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hopefully like I feel like I know you a bit better and hopefully our listeners
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understand you're bringing a wealth of experience to this conversation today
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as we talk about building sustainability mindsets through experiences themselves.
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And we've got a few segments we want to get into, I guess.
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But in this first segment, let's talk about rethinking sustainability
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in schools.
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Often I think sustainability can be thought of as like a bolt on or something
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that a school has to think of in addition to what they're already doing.
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I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit about like,
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what does it truly mean for a school to be sustainable with regard
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to school decisions, with their values, with their actions?
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What comes to mind when you think of like, the ideal sustainable school?
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Okay, I can actually think of some schools that are like that,
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but I actually like a really like a framework that a company called
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metanoia, views to actually identify
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for the characteristics of a sustainable school.
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And it's a five pointer.
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The first one of these about is the campus itself sustainable?
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So do they use sustainable energy?
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What's their water use?
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Do they recycle water?
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What, for example, is the building material like,
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is has
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waste disposed, how the students travel and so on.
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And I think, another
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one of the important aspects of that is,
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in what way do schools actually,
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procure materials and where they control them from?
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Because, let's face it, schools,
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contribute to the economy in quite a big way.
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In their own way.
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Well, and
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by that nature also, then climate impact in a pretty significant way too, right?
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I mean, often when I think a school thinks about sustainable practices,
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they think about printing and they think about how much paper
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they're using or how often they're online.
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But I like that you brought in right away just building materials and water usage
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and waste and this sort of thing, because it's it's
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more than just what's kind of the quickly tangible
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turn off the lights when you're done kind of thing. Right?
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Right. And I mean, also the if you're in the fortunate position,
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which I guess you would be, John, perhaps where you are in Austria,
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where you actually have nature as part of the school property.
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So how well is that actually looked after?
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Yeah. Okay.
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The second one of the points is really about communication.
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How well does a school actually communicate its own story about,
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about sustainability
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and things that are going on in the school
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through its website, through
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through its students, through newsletters and so on.
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And a third one is really about community
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and how the,
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school relates to the local community
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and how the school's behavior influences the local community.
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And that, I think, is an area that many schools
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aren't so good in, in sort of dealing with about how the way
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that they operate actually influences the local community.
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I'll give you a very simple example is
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where schools are located
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in a suburb and the traffic congestion around schools
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caused by parents taking people in and out of schools,
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that doesn't send a great message about the sustainability of the school itself.
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Yeah, I'd like to as you're talking about,
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you know, community as well as communication,
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it sounds like there's so much more
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with regard to how you speak about it, because it's not just I think I've times
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people talk about sustainability
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and they think like, I'm a I'm the problem and therefore I'm just being called out
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by being the problem.
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So how will you communicate that message to everybody about solutions
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oriented things, I guess, or ways in which we talk about it
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that then embed not just at the school, but the whole community itself.
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Right? Yeah.
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And also, I think engaging with the local environment
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and I'm thinking of my Swiss,
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context, particularly where schools have actually been involved
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in looking after bits and pieces of nature reserves
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and improving the quality of those and that sense
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also, it's, message to the local community, I think. The next
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point I think is, is absolutely critical to sustainability
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in any school, and it's about the culture of the school,
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how much is the board and the senior
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administration of the school aligned with the idea of sustainability?
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Is it a key part of,
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the school's mission statement and a couple of examples.
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For example, the mission statement is a green schools
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to create a global community of learners making our world sustainable.
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And another example I have is from
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the Australian International School in Singapore.
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This school integrates sustainability
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into its curriculum and campus operations,
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promoting environmental awareness and responsibility among students.
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So that's a clear statement in both cases about what the school wants to do.
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There's no doubt when the key administrators are on board
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and supportive and actually take a role in doing things, then things happen.
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And some time ago I did a,
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a course on sustainability, which was just,
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with the Royal Geographical Society.
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It was full of businessmen,
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and they were saying that sustainability works in their operations
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when the CEO takes an active role, and he actually makes sure that the line
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managers are involved in this and observes what the line manager is doing.
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If you draw that parallel with schools, same principles basically.
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So I think that's something that's really important.
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And I'd say this one of the real keys to, how sustainable school is.
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Does that then go beyond
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just setting like here's our statement, here's our mission statement.
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It sounds like what you're talking about
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is that the leaders in the school are also living by example.
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So they they're bringing that forward.
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You know, when I think about culture, as you talk about culture is kind of like
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what arrives at the school gates every day and what kind of happens within it.
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So is this more of the angle of like your leaders are then leading by example
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and more than just what we see written in policies,
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for example, or mission statements, is it like how that's lived out then?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I mean, I think being involved directly.
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So I can give you an example
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from the Swiss school I worked at here, the Franz Gymnasium,
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they decided as a project when they were
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100 years old, or, sorry, 150 years old, that,
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they would actually take responsibility for completely
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clearing, renovating,
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a stream here and the area around it.
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And the rector of the school actually went and worked with the kids.
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And that's a very clear statement to the kids.
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And also the staff members like, this is something that's important.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, I've had my own experience of working with, as a CAS
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coordinator, working with principals that were that engaged as well.
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And in the last one of the points which you I'm not sure
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how much you want me to talk about, that is really about the curriculum
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and how embedded sustainability is in the curriculum.
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And, if I can I just make some observations
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that I've seen that
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When you look internationally, across
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various curriculums, you see examples in Scotland, in Germany and Sweden
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and the UK,
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all have statements about sustainability.
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And there are often
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it tends to be, though restricted to a couple of subject areas, biology
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and geography are the flavor of the month and also economics to a certain extent.
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And one of the things which is clear about sustainability
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is the need to have an interdisciplinary approach.
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And when you look at the big exam systems like A-levels,
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the IB diploma particularly, it's very hard to actually manage that.
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It can only be managed
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through some things which fall in the IB diploma, which are
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the core of the diploma, CAS and theory knowledge.
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And often that depends on the skill of the teacher
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delivering those things to actually bring that in.
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However, with some of the younger
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programs, for example, you know, IB runs,
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it is possible to have
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in the middle years program,
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and also the primary is program interdisciplinary inquiries,
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which the kids can be involved in and in which you can start to integrate
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some of the capabilities that you're looking for.
16:41
Are you an IB educator wanting
16:42
to improve your practice and needing just a bit more support getting there?
16:46
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16:50
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Simply visit kognity.com/ibunplugged to submit your question to us,
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and have your question explored in more detail in an upcoming episode.
17:05
And now, back to the show.
17:08
So if I hear you correctly, it sounds like it's important
17:11
that it's present in the curriculum at all places,
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not just showing up in things like geography and biology,
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but in their languages, for example, in their maths and their economics,
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as you say, their psychology courses, all of these things you need to be seeing
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and learning more about sustainable practices within that field of discipline.
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Is that correct? Yes.
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And I think
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linking particularly at this point is going to make a little bit later on.
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I think one of the things that kids have difficulty doing
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is making links between subjects.
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And really, teachers
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are the people that do that some of the very broad abstract
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all the students can do it, but a lot of them can't.
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Yeah.
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And we've been seeing this like we were talking with the director
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of curriculum development a little bit ago at the IB.
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And you can see how much of an emphasis there is now to like
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bring content down a little bit more in concepts up quite a bit.
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Right.
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And I think concepts taking a greater percentage of the curriculum now
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allow this overlap and allow the sort of interdisciplinary
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nature to be really present across the diploma program,
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where it doesn't matter if you're in, for example, the Maths Applications
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and Interpretations course
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in that same day, you might go from your maths course
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to your German Avenue, course to your biology course,
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and be talking about similar themes just through those different lenses.
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I think that push with the new conceptual approaches is a little bit
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easier than to find those connections in a sustainable curriculum.
18:33
Yeah, I think particularly with
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looking at many, well, many schools
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in different contexts have to deal with a variety of cultures and languages.
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It doesn't matter where you live, these days, that
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you're not just going to have one mother tongue.
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That's going to be several mother tongues. Sure.
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And I think being able to have be able to use languages to access,
19:00
local projects, I think is really important.
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Okay. So it was campus, communication,
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the community, the culture and the curriculum.
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Was that right? Those five areas, those five areas. Yeah.
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So a school that's really thinking, well about sustainability
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has those five C words constantly in their mind.
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Right? Yeah.
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And I think that when you're evaluating these schools, do you feel like
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you've seen any schools that are using that are working with the diploma program.
19:32
Have you seen any that really have been able to still balance this quite well?
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And is there anything that like, stands out with those schools?
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Well, I guess there's a bit of a bias, but I've seen particularly
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where, there's strong community engagement,
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as being very, significant in the IB schools.
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There's certainly several
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examples of that happening here in Switzerland that I'm aware of.
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The International School.
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International School of Geneva.
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International School, in theory and so on.
20:09
And in each of those cases,
20:12
the schools
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have made a very genuine effort to,
20:19
relate to local groups and to deal with issues.
20:24
So, to do with sustainability.
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And I guess one of the things we should come in here to, to mention
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is, is about considering the broadness of,
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sustainability is not just about nature, but it's also about social issues.
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And the two are very interrelated.
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Now, Court,
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you've had quite a good experience of seeing many different schools
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and kind of visiting all of these ones as well.
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When you think about, I guess, those, those five C’s that,
20:52
that John was just talking about
20:53
are there
20:55
do you notice those things really coming out
20:56
in each of the schools you visit, or is it feel like
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the sustainability is kind of like an add on, almost like, oh,
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we have our green week and then we've done our thing.
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Or like, how often do you see a school that's really being sustainable?
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It's a tricky question because I agree with I agree with what
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you're saying, John, that that local connection is really important.
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But I think that there are different not advantages, but it's easier
21:18
in certain schools maybe than others to feel a bit of that local connection.
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We worked with this amazing school in Columbia that, I mean, they
21:27
they prioritized the way that they were designing their school to be,
21:32
deeply embedded in the kind of cultural practices
21:35
of the area and have, like, native artists and things like that
21:38
and like really build that connection where even if the students
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weren't all coming from that area, it was a very international school.
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You could still it wasn't like,
21:50
when you enter a city and you're like, I have no idea where I am.
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It was very obvious that the location mattered
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and that there was that deep connection there.
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But I don't think that that means.
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And like you said, John, you don't have to be connected to nature.
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You could be a school in Dubai.
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We visited different schools in Dubai where
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even if they're in the heart of the city and they're not necessarily
22:13
they don't have access to a jungle or a stream to clean or things like that.
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There's still ways that they can talk, I think then they really go into
22:21
maybe more of the economic side
22:23
where they're talking about the circular economy
22:25
and kind of some of the problems that are coming up,
22:29
there where they can make a bigger difference
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when they talk about fast, like ultra fast
22:33
fashion and things like that, that are really important.
22:37
And also, yeah, a very different approach,
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but still an extremely meaningful approach.
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This pivots really nicely actually into our into our second segment.
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If you are what we really want to get into,
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which is this idea of like learning with and in nature
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and does do sustainable
22:58
practices, does the education of sustainability
23:00
limit itself to being out in nature, or what are the other things that schools
23:04
need to be considering that go beyond take care of your waste
23:07
appropriately, use sort of green energy alternatives?
23:10
So when we talk about like experiential based learning, specifically nature based
23:15
learning, it can be a really powerful way to build that sustainable mindset.
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But is there more than that?
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Is there more that schools can be doing to get that experiential learning?
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That's not just go outside of the school gates, but what else
23:26
can schools be doing to really get that specific sustainability mindset going?
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Well, I think there needs to be basically some knowledge
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about about some of the issues that are faced.
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And I keep coming back to this, I think
23:42
particularly local issues that are relevant to the kids.
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So, for example,
23:49
in most European cities
23:52
and schools are big issues about migration and about refugees.
23:57
Sure.
23:58
And how do, schools deal with that?
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How do I deal with the integration that's that they're hoping will occur,
24:07
and also about how
24:10
the refugees themselves are being treated.
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And, an example I can think of from Germany
24:18
was that, in Dresden, the,
24:23
there were a lot of refugees there from the Ukraine.
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And also earlier on from Syria.
24:30
And so one of the things that the school
24:33
did was to actually open up its facilities for,
24:37
the refugees to actually use on the weekends
24:40
as a way of actually recognizing that
24:43
the school actually had a responsibility
24:45
to the local community, and that included these refugee people.
24:49
So I think that's,
24:51
a significant issue that
24:54
I also I mean, there's no matter where you live,
24:57
one of the other things, which is, is really obvious
25:00
is, is about poverty and,
25:03
you know, one of the key indicators to me when I go to a city
25:07
about poverty is how many people you see sleeping rough,
25:12
on the, you know, early in the morning or in the afternoon.
25:15
And what can schools be involved with?
25:19
Things like,
25:22
soup kitchens and so on that can actually help some of these people.
25:26
What I like about that is it's a, it's a practical way
25:29
that students are getting involved with what's happening around them.
25:32
And I'm glad you brought up like European cities as an example here,
25:34
because sometimes it can feel like
25:36
sustainable practices are a little bit distant, like the
25:39
the need is not right on our doorstep because it's like,
25:42
well, I've got some access to clean water
25:44
and I've got a place to live and things are okay.
25:46
But what I like with the idea of bringing refugees in, let's use
25:50
the actual spaces, is I think it provides a space now
25:53
for students to engage in conversations with either,
25:56
you know, people who have been displaced from their homes
25:58
or as you just mentioned, if there's people in poverty
26:01
who are not living in that space and the students now
26:03
engage with them, that, of course, is going to bring in
26:05
a much better intercultural understanding, a better international mindset,
26:09
and ideally starting to think about some of these things that may have caused
26:13
all those issues,
26:13
which maybe are beyond just what I might be limited to in my curriculum.
26:18
Would you say that's the aim of
26:19
what's trying to be done in those schools,
26:21
or do you think there's something more than that?
26:23
Yeah, I think that, certainly.
26:25
And I'm I think one of the other things that's important about this is students
26:30
actually deciding that this is something that I want to work with,
26:35
having that
26:36
so that they have a real, buy in to, to what they're actually doing.
26:41
And I was thinking about, here in, in Zurich and,
26:47
there's similar organizations in, in Germany that I'm aware of.
26:50
The Red cross actually organizes courses,
26:56
for kids to trains and to work with refugees
26:59
and then ask them for a commitment to work with the refugees. And
27:03
I know that there have been a few students that have been involved with that.
27:08
And I think that's also something that that's really important.
27:13
I think, of course, one of the things is that that sometimes
27:16
students need a little bit of direction as to where to find those sort of things.
27:21
So I think that's something which,
27:23
the school and coordinators can play an important role in.
27:26
Yeah.
27:27
Something that I think is also you kind of touched on it that I think is
27:31
really important is if there's no mindset
27:34
shift, there's no point in doing it.
27:37
And I mean, I think the classic example is the voluntourism when a kid goes and
27:43
they're like, oh, I'm going to volunteer at this really exotic, faraway place.
27:47
And then I took a lot of pictures in a cool place,
27:49
and I came back and there was never a mindset shift.
27:51
And I feel like that that does more damage than good in a lot of cases.
27:55
And I'm wondering from your perspective, what do you think
27:58
are the most important elements that have to be there to make it actually
28:05
meaningful for learning and have that mindset shift?
28:09
Look, I couldn't agree with you more about Voluntourism.
28:12
And as you're probably aware, there's plenty of
28:15
of commercial operations that offer experiences for kids.
28:20
Yeah. And,
28:23
there's one
28:25
practical example of one that that, some students I had were involved in.
28:30
The kids went away for a month doing a pile of different things
28:35
with a commercial company, including hiking and on, so on.
28:40
And then they went to school,
28:42
and the service they did was to repaint the school.
28:47
Anyway, kids went away and painted the school, and and
28:52
there were two the one of the little kids
28:54
in Spanish and he said, well, why are you doing this?
28:57
And the kids said, because it needs to be done.
28:59
They said, no, no, no.
29:00
We had another group last month that came and painted this
29:04
the thing
29:04
well, what was the point?
29:06
Yeah.
29:08
I have to say, I'm
29:09
not I'm sure there are some good, experiences,
29:13
commercial experiences, but I'm a bit skeptical about the value of them.
29:16
Yeah, but it does bring up this question.
29:18
I know as a as a former CAS coordinator and just thinking about, like, the CAS
29:22
trips and CAS experiences that some schools may put together,
29:26
there is something quite profound
29:27
about an experience that takes you off site, and it's a trip with you.
29:31
You know,
29:32
you talk to alumni who come from a school, and often
29:34
they'll remember those experiences
29:36
more than they remember the day to day in the curriculum.
29:38
So there's an opportunity there of actually doing, you know, you brought up,
29:43
metanoia earlier, right, with like and that that's all about
29:46
a transformation in the heart and the mind that leads to behavioral changes.
29:50
Right? Right.
29:51
So sometimes those experiences, whether it's a trip or something
29:55
like that, it's rife with opportunity to have a real transformation.
29:59
How do you like if you're a CAS
30:00
coordinator listening right now or a DP coordinator right now,
30:03
how can you take that thing that's got good opportunity
30:06
and turn it into real, lasting, sustainable change
30:09
so that it's that it's it's worthwhile and it's not just repainting the walls
30:13
that were painted a week ago.
30:14
Right.
30:14
I think the first thing this is quite complicated,
30:18
I think, because from a school perspective,
30:21
you're working with an organization with a, a group in another country.
30:27
The first thing that's really important is having a clear
30:30
cultural understanding of the group you're working with.
30:34
And also having someone on the ground
30:38
who's reliable and accountable for what's going to happen.
30:42
That's that's something that's critical.
30:45
I'll give you an example of this in a moment.
30:47
The other I'm aware of.
30:48
The second thing is in terms of the kids going there
30:54
being very clear about what
30:55
they can actually do, which is going to be useful.
31:00
Let's face it, going and building
31:03
houses, walls and so on
31:07
could be better done by local people, right?
31:10
Because when kids go to do that, they're basically laborers.
31:15
Yeah.
31:15
And not very skillful laborers.
31:17
And that's my own observation.
31:19
Some are, but most of them aren’t. it'd be like when I renovated my van
31:23
and then it was like, oh, never mind, it doesn't work.
31:25
Don't look at it.
31:26
So I think that's one of the things what can
31:30
the kids do that is actually going to be constructive and helpful?
31:35
And then I think the kids need to be,
31:40
also to have some preparation about the culture,
31:43
they’re going to face and the differences there are.
31:47
And the challenges that present,
31:50
and I think that's something that's very, very important.
31:55
And the other thing is, I think that
31:58
when the students get there,
32:02
that they also have some time to realize what they're going to be able to do,
32:07
and also to get a feel for the local environment.
32:11
If I can backtrack to give you an example
32:13
of one of the things I was talking about,
32:17
the international school of Frankfurt's
32:19
had a long time project in the Kalahari,
32:23
and originally that started with,
32:29
a religious person
32:31
that was was working in it and,
32:34
working with a group of displaced people that had been displaced during apartheid.
32:39
And so they were,
32:42
the school was able to have someone they knew that was honest
32:47
and very clear about the needs, local people.
32:50
And so they could work towards that.
32:52
And, you know, they did go through the stage of building things,
32:56
but what they realized, later on, was that the quality of
33:02
education which was provided for the kids, because at one stage the one
33:08
of the high schools in the area had not had one kid in 20
33:11
years, had actually matriculated through the South African system.
33:16
And so one of the things they did
33:18
was to be involved in providing some coaching
33:22
and also some PD for for teaching, and then later on,
33:27
being able to provide some assistance with teaching
33:31
materials and resources to the school in South Africa.
33:36
I could see where that has such a stronger impact then, because if I draw
33:40
the connections between what you've said so far, it's this idea that
33:44
you need to have somebody who has a personal connection to the space,
33:47
so it's not really going to work if you just upend
33:49
everybody and go somewhere where there's no actual connection beforehand, you knock
33:53
on the door and you're like, hey, I'm here with my hammer, ready to build stuff.
33:57
Would that be dangerous?
33:59
Courtney?
33:59
Yeah, yeah, for for multiple reasons.
34:02
John. Okay.
34:03
And neither of you are going to probably get a Gilmore Girls reference, but,
34:07
she was like a high schooler, and she shows up with her
34:09
pink painted hammer with, like, a little ribbon on it.
34:12
How do you do? Ready to save the day?
34:15
Yes. Yeah.
34:17
So it's got to have that, like, student connection to the space
34:20
and better if it's in a local context or some way that they actually know it.
34:24
But it sounds like what you're leading to
34:25
here is like, there's got to be student agency in terms of how they,
34:30
know what's what's going into it to they know how they can realistically
34:34
and in long term make a positive solution here.
34:39
So let's let's pivot here and kind of into this sort of last segment,
34:42
I guess, which is like moving from awareness of an issue
34:46
into agency of it, like, how do we make sure that students
34:50
are taking agency over this idea of having sustainable practices,
34:53
whether they are in a past experience, like the one we just discussed,
34:57
or if it's taking place in their school, how can we move students from that?
35:01
I know there's an issue to here's how I'm going to take action on it.
35:04
Okay.
35:04
Oh, I think the one the things which is really important here
35:09
is actually developing student, competencies.
35:13
And sorry if I'm going to be a bit theoretical here, but I think
35:16
covers a lot of bases.
35:19
I was reading an article,
35:21
piece of research which was done in Germany,
35:24
and they identified eight key competencies.
35:28
They thought they needed students needed. For sustainability or in general?
35:33
About sustainability particular.
35:35
Okay.
35:36
So the first one was about thinking about
35:39
systems and understanding what a system is.
35:42
And also importantly,
35:47
how students relate,
35:49
what's their part in the system?
35:52
I think that's something that's very important.
35:55
The careers
35:57
program of the IB, it's got a new,
36:01
community engagement program.
36:03
And this is one of the things I actually stressed was about students
36:07
being aware of their role
36:10
and being able to reflect on it, and that's going to require some,
36:15
tweaking, perhaps, you know, as a, a biology teacher
36:19
that, you know, you would say it's given that everybody understands
36:22
about systems thinking, but we both know that that not everybody does biology
36:28
and not everybody does geography and not everybody does economics.
36:33
So where is this going to come in the curriculum?
36:37
Sure.
36:37
And what's the awareness of that?
36:39
Okay.
36:40
Second point is really about being able
36:42
to evaluate and see what futures there are.
36:47
They call that anticipatory competency.
36:51
The third one is to be able to look at one's own actions
36:58
and see how that fits
37:00
in with norms and expectations around,
37:04
and to be able to relate those to sustainability
37:07
values and norms.
37:10
And another important
37:12
one is really about management and strategic competency.
37:16
Being able to look at the
37:17
the longer term, how are we going to go forward with this?
37:22
Collaborations, another one, which of course, I think is
37:25
is actually quite challenging, particularly when we look at the,
37:30
kids doing the IB diploma.
37:32
They struggle with that about working collaboratively.
37:35
They're not actually encouraged to do that very often in many cases.
37:39
I mean, obviously,
37:40
one of the approach to learning emphases is, is about collaboration as well.
37:44
So I guess it's that where can teachers intentionally scaffold that collaboration
37:48
in all of their curriculum?
37:50
Because I think that is that is a core emphasis that the that
37:53
the IB is trying to push forward is like this collaborative skills as well.
37:56
Yeah.
37:57
I think one of the key things is really about
38:00
empathy with others and understanding others.
38:03
And I think that's a challenge these days.
38:07
Sure.
38:07
Much more than it was I think in in time.
38:10
And that's a bit to do with
38:13
some of the isolation that comes with social media obsession.
38:17
That's exactly what I was just thinking as well.
38:18
It's, it's pretty easy to just become yourself with your phone or your device
38:22
and not actually interact with other people.
38:24
So I guess there's that distinction between collaborating effectively
38:27
and then also just like feeling comfortable interacting with other people.
38:30
Right? Right.
38:31
And then I think a big one is being able to think critically about what's going on
38:36
in, not just to be emotional about about what's
38:41
what's being done and to have the ability to self-reflect.
38:45
And I think that's quite, again, quite challenging.
38:47
This is slightly off the topic, but when I look at,
38:51
as I mark extend this, I and one of the things
38:53
kids have to do there is reflect on their research process.
38:57
They're appalling at it.
38:58
It's just not very good.
39:01
Which is surprising because,
39:03
you know, if you talk to most DP
39:04
students, they are exhausted with reflecting.
39:07
I reflect all the time and I feel like I'm just reflecting reflecting.
39:10
So if if as examiner you're commenting on like pretty poor reflection,
39:15
then I think that also comes back to teachers
39:17
in terms of modeling and scaffolding.
39:18
Like what is a good reflection?
39:21
And is it just like thinking back and describing an experience that have done.
39:24
No, it's going back and evaluating that and finding more in terms of here's
39:28
what I've done, here's how I've analyzed it, and here's
39:30
how I can move forward in a different and better way.
39:32
And I think
39:33
as you're describing right now, you could see where intentional reflection
39:36
would have a very positive impact on sustainable thinking.
39:39
Yeah, I agree with you. But,
39:42
but, you know, one of the big
39:44
positive changes about the extent of this, I actually is now,
39:47
the kids don't have to do three reflections, just one reflection,
39:51
which I think makes a lot more sense,
39:54
you know, looking at the quality of them.
39:56
Anyway, to move on. Critical thinking.
39:58
I think that's one of the key things there is, you know, I think,
40:02
I think TOK
40:04
helps kids a lot with that to actually think
40:09
about particular issues and also to
40:15
see how different disciplines approach
40:18
that and see the differences and similarities between that.
40:24
And I think when it's taught well that that actually helps kids quite,
40:28
quite a bit.
40:30
A lot of kids struggle with it, as you know, to start with,
40:32
because it's, it's it's so abstract
40:35
and it takes a while, for the penny to drop.
40:39
I think that sashays into a couple of the other things that I mentioned
40:42
about self-awareness and, and the ability to problem solve.
40:47
And, I think those are things which,
40:51
we hope that the
40:51
kids have actually started, develop, through,
40:56
the last couple of years of school.
40:58
So those are some of the competencies, I think, which are absolutely essential
41:02
and which schools need to take on board.
41:07
And I'm not sure.
41:09
From I did a workshop on community engagement a few weeks ago.
41:14
I'm not sure how much,
41:18
teachers actually feel so comfortable with that.
41:22
Today's KogTip is from Tanya
41:25
from Advanced Learning Schools.
41:27
Tanya says, I love using Kognity’s progress
41:30
and engagement reports to see how my students are really doing.
41:34
It's a quick way to spot
41:35
who's getting it, who's struggling, and what I might need to revisit in class.
41:39
This has been super helpful for planning my next steps.
41:43
Thanks for sharing, Tanya.
41:46
No, I think that it's tricky, and I think that one piece
41:49
that you talked about was this the where does emotion come into play?
41:53
And I think that it's something that is really important to have the
41:58
emotional connection and that they show that, you know, as you get older,
42:02
you need to you do have to have a little bit of frustration
42:06
or anger with the way things are and that desire to change.
42:10
I mean, back in my Florida days, I worked at a zoo presenting animals,
42:16
and they always said that like when a child interacts with a cute
42:20
animal, like, great start to, building sustainable, practices
42:25
and getting that emotional tie in of when you,
42:29
you could argue for a lot of other things about zoos, but like the idea that
42:33
if you have an emotional connection to what you're working towards, you're
42:38
going to have a more profound impact and desire for change.
42:43
And I'm wondering at like the DP level,
42:46
how do you balance that of getting students not riled up,
42:51
but get them to care, get them to have that emotional reaction
42:56
to kind of some of these bigger issues that you want them to work towards
42:59
being change makers versus how do you keep them
43:03
from not
43:04
spiraling into a doom of, yeah, we're all screwed.
43:07
Forget it.
43:09
Yeah.
43:09
I think that that again comes down to manageable
43:13
situations and ones which are,
43:17
the kids level that within local issues.
43:20
I mean, look, let's if you take
43:23
a simple example about climate change,
43:26
you know, that appears
43:29
on the face of things, you think, well, what's the point of living?
43:33
I mean, you know, we're all going to burn in the next 20 or 30 years
43:39
and there's going to be horrific storms and so on and so on.
43:42
I mean, that's, you know, the factual stuff which
43:46
which there is about climate change all suggests that's going to happen.
43:50
But we can look at things which
43:54
going to help
43:56
improve things on a local basis.
44:00
And I think one of the key things about sustainability,
44:03
which is very important, is that not many of us
44:07
can change things on a global scale.
44:11
We just don't have the power or the ability.
44:14
But we can do things personally in our own lives to change that.
44:19
And I think making the students aware
44:22
of what they can do locally,
44:26
to improve the situation is important.
44:30
And I think the other thing is
44:31
that we must approach this with a very positive mindset.
44:35
Yeah, it reminds me in the biology course that I teach,
44:39
obviously with a diploma program, once we get to our ecology and conservation
44:43
unit, I actually flip the assessment model and I don't make it a typical
44:47
like paper one, paper two assessment style that they might see in biology.
44:51
Instead I flip and I say your assessment of this unit is what
44:54
I call the Climate Call to Action project, which is I need to see evidence
44:58
of how you are sharing awareness or you're taking action
45:02
on some sort of climate related thing in our context.
45:05
And it kind of gives students the chance to dive into what's happening in our area.
45:09
So a brief example.
45:10
I had one student who evaluated what we had on offer in our cafe
45:14
in terms of like the milk offering, did we just have cow's milk?
45:17
Or we were also offering plant based milk, and where was that milk coming from?
45:20
And just did a little bit of a study around
45:22
that thing and built awareness in our own context.
45:25
And another one also looked at like the food practices at are
45:29
where we go for lunches.
45:31
Where's that food coming from that sort of thing.
45:32
So really pushing it to the students to say in this context,
45:36
how are you going to take some action and move this forward?
45:39
And I'm wondering in your experience, have you come across
45:43
other practices that maybe either build
45:45
more of an authentic assessment around sustainability practices
45:49
or just help students understand their contributions and responsibilities
45:53
in their local contexts, which can then widen out to their global context?
45:56
If I can, talk about a couple of schools that that I've seen with
46:03
this has happened, one example I can think of and again,
46:08
this is a social situation
46:12
and not related directly to assessment.
46:15
So I want to stress that.
46:17
But in Indonesia, in Jakarta, the British school in Jakarta
46:22
is located next to a slum area
46:25
called, I think, Bengaluru.
46:27
And one of the things which the kids saw there
46:32
as, a need was, first of all, to register kids
46:36
so they'd be entitled to health care and and even passport and go to school.
46:41
And then they decided the, the
46:44
as a CAS project and also the design technology project
46:50
that they would
46:50
actually design a school made out of bamboo
46:55
that they could source.
46:57
And then the students were actually involved in constructing
46:59
that as part of a project that they had to to do for design technology.
47:04
Cool.
47:05
And it proved to be the first school,
47:08
right?
47:09
So they've got kids in there. That has since progressed
47:14
as a school is now a secondary school.
47:17
And the latest project that, the school was involved in
47:21
was that they wanted to build a pre-primary center.
47:24
So what they did was they got hold of lots of paint bottles,
47:27
and there's plenty of those in slums.
47:31
And they filled them
47:33
with sand and paper and constructed a building out of it.
47:37
So the little kids to play and things like the,
47:41
the tops of the bottles were used as playthings and little things made up,
47:47
and they were all designed by students and also part of,
47:53
a project that
47:54
they'd actually carried out for design again, for design technology
47:58
and also, of course, it fits beautifully into a CAS project.
48:02
I think it was very interesting what you said about flipping.
48:08
I would say that one of the things which is also
48:12
from a curriculum point of view in the diploma,
48:14
my experience with the teaching, it was also looking
48:19
particularly at,
48:22
a sustainable issue and the example I can think of,
48:25
which should probably be familiar with John,
48:28
is the impact that, downhill skiing has on the environment.
48:33
Yeah.
48:33
And looking at that,
48:37
and just because there are the students actually measuring
48:42
what the changes are and looking at, so the vegetation cover and obviously
48:47
and so on, and also the amount of land that's actually been cleared
48:51
for the paste itself.
48:53
And the impact that's having the local environment
48:56
and then talking about how some of these slopes can be rehabilitated.
49:00
Because one of the things which is definitely changing here is the,
49:05
the snow limit is, is getting higher and higher each year.
49:10
So now you've got ski slopes
49:13
which are down at 900m, which is just not being used.
49:17
And yet you could have a piece of ground.
49:19
So what do we do to rehabilitate that bit of land?
49:22
Yeah.
49:23
It's cool that you just brought that up.
49:24
That's actually exactly
49:25
what we focused on for our most recent collaborative sciences project.
49:28
And speaking of the IBDP curriculum, one of the things I really love about,
49:32
especially the new science courses, is in that collaborative sciences project.
49:35
It's intentional that the students look beyond the sciences,
49:39
so they look into things in the economy, for example, or they look into,
49:43
citizen science projects and these sort of things that might bring it all together.
49:46
So it's almost intentionally pushing students to think in that direction.
49:51
And that, I think, brings up exactly what you're talking about,
49:53
is that when we talk about sustainability,
49:55
it's not always the thing that's right in front of our face.
49:58
There's many, many layers there.
49:59
And so I think what we've discussed so far today is not just what a good one
50:03
looks like in terms of schools that really kind of get this practice right,
50:07
and not just getting students to engage with it in their own purposeful way,
50:10
but like how we can take that awareness that maybe the curriculum provides
50:14
and then turn that into a student led agency kind of projects on.
50:18
Here's the impact that I can have in these spaces.
50:21
So I guess as we come to a close, are there maybe like a couple of top,
50:26
I don't know, top takeaways or top things that you think an educator can really do
50:30
to make sure that they're embedding this in their in their schools?
50:33
Let me give that a little bit of thought okay.
50:35
So first of all,
50:37
if we're looking at this at a school level,
50:39
I think one of the things is essential is you've got to have a champion of
50:43
some sort,
50:45
preferably
50:46
an administrator, but, you know, a champion teacher.
50:50
Then, I think what's also important
50:54
is that there is a group of people
50:57
alongside this person that is prepared
51:00
to support and particularly in,
51:04
in a K to 12 school, having people involved
51:07
right across the age grades.
51:10
Then I think it's important
51:12
to have students directly involved.
51:16
And I think one of the things which is clear, which I remember
51:20
seeing at the international school and so was
51:23
I had a conference one day,
51:27
about identifying
51:29
the key needs that the school had
51:33
and what are some of the solutions to it in terms of sustainability?
51:37
So what followed that was,
51:41
of course, breaking that down into some groups.
51:45
And then having the students come up with some suggestions about changes.
51:51
You mentioned the stuff about food in the,
51:54
in the mincer and things like that, that that's one example of it.
51:57
But they're also looking at how kids got to school, for example, and
52:02
how that could change.
52:05
And I think getting the kids then
52:08
to actually play a role in actually developing
52:14
what's going to happen, they're going to need some help.
52:17
And there'll be some times when for a whole lot of reasons
52:20
that some of the suggestions I have just aren't feasible.
52:24
Right.
52:25
And I think,
52:29
the other thing is that
52:30
that's very important is that the students are supported with the competencies
52:36
they need to be able to do this well,
52:39
and there needs to be
52:42
at some point an evaluation of
52:45
of what's going on, how effective it is, and what are some of the issues.
52:50
My own experience as CAS coordinator
52:51
there were lots of times when kids
52:54
hit brick walls, and that's always a big learning experience for them.
52:58
They they can then be shown how to move on from the big wall
53:02
and see what's the way forward in doing things.
53:06
So I think that's that's something that's, that's it's very important.
53:10
So we need a champion.
53:11
We need a group around that champion.
53:14
We need some students who are, you know, interested in doing this thing and I guess
53:17
teachers and providing the space for them to get that done.
53:20
And then a way to like feedback on that and see the effectiveness of it.
53:25
Yeah, I think there's one other thing which is really important, which, is
53:32
not always
53:33
within the realms of the school is actually some professional development
53:37
the staff. There's lots of courses, that I'm aware
53:41
of commercially for developing and teaching,
53:46
about sustainability and,
53:49
and also the opportunity for bringing people into the school
53:53
that are very wise about about that.
53:58
And I can think of several examples
54:00
of where that's kind of come about,
54:03
either with a Courtney’s come across campus
54:07
in an, in action in, in, Dubai and, and some of the other places,
54:13
and you know, they're doing a fantastic job.
54:17
And I think that
54:19
also looking at some of the universities that are offering, some very good
54:24
courses and material on sustainability that actually have,
54:29
recognition as well.
54:31
Personally, I found one of the things which has,
54:35
had developed my own understanding of,
54:38
of sustainability was, using Futurelearn
54:42
and taking some of the short courses they did.
54:45
And that really broadened my experience and knowledge about things.
54:50
Thank you so much, John.
54:51
I think it's really nice to end on.
54:53
Yeah, quite a few ways that teachers can take things
54:56
into their own hands or administrators can think about ways that they can
54:59
support their teachers in getting that PD and really that reflection.
55:03
I do think the evaluation part is important to take
55:06
that step back and say, where is our school right now?
55:09
But where do we actually want to be?
55:11
We can't just say, you don't need a certification.
55:16
You don't need to become a green school.
55:18
You know, things like that are great opportunities, but there can be
55:22
really systemic changes that happen in your school.
55:26
Even without that, that you can kind of get started
55:29
with just by learning and asking the right questions
55:33
and thinking about how to get your kids involved.
55:35
So thank you so much for today.
55:37
It's been a great, great topic to explore with you and I appreciate,
55:42
yeah, being able
55:42
to catch up with you again and talk more about it. Just before I go.
55:46
One of the things I would say is this that I think that,
55:52
sustainability is most
55:54
effective when it's a whole school approach.
55:57
And we talked
55:59
a little bit about, about nature earlier on, and I think
56:03
one of the biggest challenges that that faces
56:06
educators at the moment is,
56:10
young people's alienation from nature.
56:13
And I think particularly providing
56:18
young kids with the primary school kids with the opportunity of being in nature
56:23
and exploring it for themselves, leading them
56:25
some questions about that is really critical
56:29
for the future.
56:32
One of the things
56:33
I didn't mention earlier on, which is it
56:37
something which started me about an international school in, in China
56:42
that actually removed all the grass, removed all the wooden furniture,
56:46
replaced with plastic grass and placed it with plastic furniture for kids.
56:50
And their logic was it was safer,
56:53
but certainly not going to help the kids
56:56
to have a great connection with nature.
56:59
But I think that's one of the things which is really important for the future.
57:04
It has been a pleasure to talk with you both,
57:07
and of course, to renew acquaintances with with Courtney.
57:10
I've learned a little bit more about Courtney,
57:12
to know about her days in the zoo,
57:15
which I didn't know about before, and of course, to meet you, John.
57:18
It was lovely to to have a chat with you both and
57:22
I wish you all the best for the future.
57:24
Thanks, John.
57:24
Thanks so much for taking the time.
57:26
Great to meet you as well.
57:30
So what an enriching conversation that was with John.
57:32
I mean, so many really useful takeaways about how to create an authentic,
57:36
sustainable school, right?
57:38
Yeah, definitely.
57:39
I think,
57:40
I love how different CAS looks at different schools,
57:43
and I love hearing about kind of how he's gone into
57:47
so many different schools to really see how they're building out sustainability.
57:50
I think it's been yeah, really fun to hear all the different examples.
57:53
I was laughing afterwards about the school
57:56
with the paint of going and being like, why are you painting?
58:00
We just painted this last time as well.
58:03
Yeah, so many good things there.
58:05
So if you're an educator listening, what are
58:07
what would be kind of the key takeaways? What do you think
58:09
are like the most important things they could action right away?
58:12
I think the evaluation piece is where you start.
58:15
Who is talking about the the metanoia approach, the five C's.
58:18
It was what campus, communication, community, culture, collaboration.
58:23
Yeah. Just starting.
58:24
Where do you fall in your school and which parts do you need to focus on most?
58:29
That's a good place to start to know where you are.
58:31
Yeah, definitely.
58:32
I mean, the one that stood out for me is lead by example.
58:35
You know, don't just have it in your mission statement.
58:37
Don't just have it written on the walls, but get involved in all those projects.
58:40
Make sure that you are being an ambassador for a sustainable school. Yep.
58:45
And then I would say the last one would be probably that going
58:48
from awareness into action and how much you can't
58:52
just put all of the emphasis on reflection afterwards.
58:56
But if you want that experiential learning that's
58:59
going to lead to creating these changemakers
59:02
and your students and having students want to make a difference,
59:06
you have to put the work in with the planning of how do I really create this,
59:11
emphasis
59:12
around the mindset shift and what's going on.
59:15
You can't just say, throw any experience together
59:19
like the Voluntourism example, and then just reflect about it later.
59:23
It really needs to be deliberately part of the planning.
59:26
Yeah. Fully agreed.
59:27
So we hope you enjoyed this episode of IB unplugged and we hope to see you
59:31
next time for another great episode where you can improve as an IB educator.
59:35
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast hosted by John Patton
59:39
and Courtney Marline and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
59:41
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59:45
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59:48
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59:51
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59:53
and support each other in teaching with confidence, creativity and joy.
59:57
See you next time.