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#150 Jason Flom with Randal Padgett · Wrongful Conviction

0:01
Speaker 1: In the late nineteen eighties. Randall Paget was a poultry
0:04
Speaker 1: farmer and family man in the small town of Arab, Alabama, who,
0:08
Speaker 1: by his own admission, made the biggest mistake of his
0:11
Speaker 1: life when he stepped out and his wife Kathy with
0:14
Speaker 1: a coworker.
0:15
Speaker 2: Named Judy Smith.
0:16
Speaker 1: The affair was on and off again over the years,
0:19
Speaker 1: and during one of those on again times, Judy and
0:22
Speaker 1: Randall took a road trip to Florida, only to be
0:24
Speaker 1: awoken the first night they were there with some harrowing news.
0:29
Speaker 1: On August seventeenth, nineteen ninety Cathy's body had been discovered
0:32
Speaker 1: in her bed. She had endured a violent struggle and
0:36
Speaker 1: had sustained forty six stab wounds, which ultimately killed her,
0:40
Speaker 1: and to make matters worse, seamen was found inside of her.
0:44
Speaker 1: Even though there was no indication that she had been raped.
0:48
Speaker 1: The night before this Florida trip, that Paget children had
0:51
Speaker 1: stayed with Randall in his tiny trailer, they knew that
0:55
Speaker 1: he hadn't left in the middle of the night to
0:57
Speaker 1: do anything, much less kill their mother. No signs of
1:01
Speaker 1: a break in at her home, Randall became the suspect,
1:04
Speaker 1: and he was arrested when the seamen turned.
1:07
Speaker 3: Out to be his.
1:08
Speaker 1: The state would commit misconduct during the trial, involving blood
1:13
Speaker 1: found at the crime scene that didn't match Kathy or Randall.
1:16
Speaker 1: This misconduct was one of the factors that led ultimately
1:20
Speaker 1: to Randall being sentenced to death. The prosecutor misconduct would
1:24
Speaker 1: result in a retrial, and a defense investigation would uncover
1:28
Speaker 1: some of the craziest perversities, proving that Paget had been
1:32
Speaker 1: innocent all along and rescuing Randall from death.
1:36
Speaker 3: Row is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
1:52
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
1:55
Speaker 2: That's me.
1:56
Speaker 1: I'm your host, and today I'm actually I kind of butterflies.
2:00
Speaker 1: I gotta be honest because today you're going to hear
2:02
Speaker 1: a story that I've been wanting to tell for as
2:07
Speaker 1: long as I've known about it. And when you hear it,
2:10
Speaker 1: you'll understand why. Because this is one of the craziest
2:14
Speaker 1: stories I believe in the history of American jurisprudence. And
2:19
Speaker 1: to help tell the story, we have an attorney. He's
2:21
Speaker 1: a personal hero of mine. Richard S. Jaffy is with us.
2:25
Speaker 1: So Richard, Welcome to Wrongful conviction.
2:28
Speaker 4: I'm so happy to be here, Jason, and today.
2:31
Speaker 1: We're going to be telling the incredible saga of Randall.
2:36
Speaker 1: Paget Randall, as I always say, I'm sorry you have
2:39
Speaker 1: to be here, but I'm happy you're here.
2:41
Speaker 2: I'm real happy to be here. I've been in a
2:43
Speaker 2: lot worse places.
2:47
Speaker 1: Well said Randall. Let's start with you, because you grew
2:51
Speaker 1: up in a small town in Alabama, a town called Arab.
2:55
Speaker 1: I had never heard of Arab, But can you just
2:57
Speaker 1: give us an idea of what your life was like
3:00
Speaker 1: before everything went so crazy?
3:03
Speaker 2: Okay, the town has pronounced Ara. Yeah. I grew up
3:07
Speaker 2: in the fifties. Well, a matter of fact, I was
3:09
Speaker 2: born in nineteen fifty small town population probably about seven
3:14
Speaker 2: thousand now. Grew up on a farm. For this simple life.
3:19
Speaker 2: I had good parents. They worked hard, they carried me
3:22
Speaker 2: to church, and well, I went to college. I got
3:26
Speaker 2: a degree in business and started to work with this plant.
3:30
Speaker 2: And I always loved outside, and so I ended up
3:33
Speaker 2: buying a poetry farm, got married, had two children, and
3:39
Speaker 2: had a pretty good life. Thirty two acres of land
3:41
Speaker 2: and the house had the land paid for, the house
3:45
Speaker 2: almost paid for, and I made probably the biggest mistake
3:52
Speaker 2: in my life. I had an extramarital affair.
4:00
Speaker 1: When you're referring to Judy Smith, Now you used to
4:02
Speaker 1: work together when all that started. Was it when you
4:05
Speaker 1: already had the poultry farm?
4:07
Speaker 2: No, it was was eating corporation, another plant, and we
4:13
Speaker 2: lived close together. One day here and work, she had
4:17
Speaker 2: a swimming pool. Something was said about going skinny dipping.
4:23
Speaker 2: So I remember when night we'd been working late and
4:28
Speaker 2: almost at home, and I seen her car in front
4:30
Speaker 2: of me and she pulled up in her driveway. So
4:32
Speaker 2: I kept thinking about the skinny dipping joke, so I
4:37
Speaker 2: put my headlights in behind her, trying to scare her.
4:41
Speaker 2: I figured she knew it was me, and then I
4:43
Speaker 2: went on home and didn't think anything else about it.
4:46
Speaker 2: Or the next day at worked, she said, well did
4:49
Speaker 2: you chicken out last night? So next night, same thing.
4:52
Speaker 2: I got almost her place, which was just before I
4:55
Speaker 2: got to my place, the he car is again pulled in.
4:58
Speaker 2: I pulled in, let's go skinny. Didn't well, she starts
5:03
Speaker 2: stripping off clothes. I thought it's all a big joke.
5:05
Speaker 2: So we got totally naked and wanted to do the deed,
5:09
Speaker 2: and I said no, I'm going home. Well, I did
5:14
Speaker 2: a long weekend, and all weekend the devil got my
5:19
Speaker 2: brain and said, you should just do it once. You
5:21
Speaker 2: should just do it once. And then did it once,
5:24
Speaker 2: and then it just more and more and more, and
5:26
Speaker 2: I was I was miserable. I guess it was mainly
5:31
Speaker 2: six and my wife and I Kathy, her name was Kathy.
5:37
Speaker 2: We had separated and she got murdered. I stay up
5:45
Speaker 2: numerous times, and right after she was dead, they said,
5:52
Speaker 2: my children, I learned later, who were six and eleven
5:57
Speaker 2: at the time, they really want that found the body
6:01
Speaker 2: of their mother. And I'm thinking about all that stuff.
6:06
Speaker 2: And I got physically ill when I first found out
6:09
Speaker 2: about it. But it was like a nightmare, especially when
6:14
Speaker 2: the police were kind of putting their finger at me.
6:18
Speaker 2: I couldn't even mourn the death of my wife with
6:23
Speaker 2: all that hanging over me. And I felt a lot
6:27
Speaker 2: of guilt. If I had been home with my wife
6:32
Speaker 2: where I should have been, she would probably be a lie.
6:37
Speaker 2: And well, the police accused me of doing it, which
6:43
Speaker 2: I can understand why. I've seen all the TV movies
6:47
Speaker 2: about the affairs and all that stuff, But DNA was
6:53
Speaker 2: brand new back then. It was nineteen ninety when she
6:56
Speaker 2: was killed, and I was just learning about doing Most
7:00
Speaker 2: people didn't know about that stuff back then, so I
7:03
Speaker 2: willingally gave my blood sample and thought, man, I can't
7:08
Speaker 2: wait till the UNITESK gets back, so they will start
7:12
Speaker 2: looking at the right place, because I wanted every kill
7:15
Speaker 2: my wife to be found.
7:18
Speaker 1: I read about your case in Richard's amazing book. It's
7:22
Speaker 1: called Quest for Justice Defending the Damned by Richard S. Jaffe,
7:26
Speaker 1: and now there's a second edition out. And this case
7:31
Speaker 1: is extraordinary in so many ways. But I can understand
7:36
Speaker 1: why the jury voted to convict you because even though
7:40
Speaker 1: there was significant evidence that it couldn't have been you,
7:44
Speaker 1: but this one thing was really almost impossible for your
7:49
Speaker 1: attorneys to overcome. And Richard, you talk about this in
7:52
Speaker 1: your book. So this murder happened on August seventeenth of nineteen.
7:57
Speaker 4: Ninety, Randall and his paramour, Judy Smith, went to Florida
8:06
Speaker 4: on a scuba diving trip. It's about six or seven
8:09
Speaker 4: hours from arab While in Florida on the evening of
8:15
Speaker 4: August sixteenth, the early mornings of August seventeenth, nineteen ninety,
8:20
Speaker 4: Randall's asleep. They just got there and a phone call
8:23
Speaker 4: comes from Randall's brother saying that his wife Kathy was murdered.
8:31
Speaker 4: Randall immediately went and threw up, and then Judy and
8:36
Speaker 4: Randall immediately turned around and drove back, and they drove
8:40
Speaker 4: right to the Sheriff's department. The interesting thing is that
8:45
Speaker 4: you would think that Randall was so shook up, so distraught,
8:50
Speaker 4: that Judy would have driven the whole way back, But
8:54
Speaker 4: apparently Judy was up all night and couldn't keep the
9:01
Speaker 4: car in the road on these windy rural roads in Florida,
9:04
Speaker 4: and after about thirty or forty minutes, they were about
9:08
Speaker 4: colliding with everything, and Randall had to drive the entire
9:12
Speaker 4: way back and Judy went to sleep in the passenger side.
9:16
Speaker 4: They go straight to the station and both give interviews separately.
9:21
Speaker 4: And then the next morning Randall invited them out to
9:27
Speaker 4: his home, the home of the murder, and he was
9:30
Speaker 4: videotaped for forty five minutes, going through the entire house
9:34
Speaker 4: and basically excluding himself from not being a suspect because
9:41
Speaker 4: every time he was offered an opportunity to, I guess
9:45
Speaker 4: put himself out of harm's way. He didn't for example,
9:50
Speaker 4: or the scuff marks in the door, are they fresh,
9:54
Speaker 4: meaning maybe the house of burger eyes. Randall said, no,
9:58
Speaker 4: they were Oh when was the last time you had
10:02
Speaker 4: sex with your wife?
10:04
Speaker 2: Kathy?
10:05
Speaker 4: Randall said, oh, it's been many months, three or four months,
10:09
Speaker 4: which if he were guilty, he would have probably said
10:14
Speaker 4: within the last few days, explaining what turned out to
10:19
Speaker 4: be a DNA match, and on and on and on,
10:24
Speaker 4: and then Randall gave a polygraph test, and he voluntarily
10:29
Speaker 4: gave his blood for DNA testing, and then he thought,
10:33
Speaker 4: as soon as it comes back, he'll be excluded as
10:37
Speaker 4: a suspect. But it didn't happen that way.
10:42
Speaker 1: So the circumstantial evidence starts to mount. Right, it looked
10:45
Speaker 1: a little strange that Randall and Judy had left town
10:49
Speaker 1: the morning after the murders, and of course, with the
10:53
Speaker 1: affair and it being a small town and everything else,
10:56
Speaker 1: people are going to think whatever they think. But at
10:59
Speaker 1: the same time they put out these crazy theories, like
11:02
Speaker 1: the idea that Randall might have been after the life insurance,
11:05
Speaker 1: when we know that she only had ten thousand dollars
11:07
Speaker 1: in life insurance anyway, which would barely cover the cost
11:10
Speaker 1: of the funeral, and it never made any sense on
11:14
Speaker 1: the face of it. Why would Randall want to make
11:17
Speaker 1: his children, who nobody had anything to say other than
11:20
Speaker 1: that he loved and they loved him. And why would
11:23
Speaker 1: he want to make them effectively orphans or at a
11:26
Speaker 1: minimum take even if you got away with it, take
11:29
Speaker 1: their mother from them. Can you talk a little bit
11:32
Speaker 1: about that, the circumstances, and then you know where ultimately
11:35
Speaker 1: it went when the DNA test came back.
11:37
Speaker 4: Well, you know, the first suspect, of course is the spouse.
11:44
Speaker 4: But at the same time, when authorities focus on one person,
11:51
Speaker 4: they get myopic and the tunnel vision, and they never
11:55
Speaker 4: look at anything else. And the investigation then is all
12:00
Speaker 4: about finding information to confirm their suspicion or their bias
12:06
Speaker 4: or their focus. In this case, though, nothing made sense.
12:13
Speaker 4: As you point out initially, clearly Kathy was in a
12:17
Speaker 4: fight for her life. She was in the bed, she
12:22
Speaker 4: was accosted by her killer, and there was a life
12:27
Speaker 4: and death struggle. Kathy was stabbed forty six times, almost
12:35
Speaker 4: all of those were defensive wounds, and it took a
12:39
Speaker 4: long time for finally a couple of stab wounds to
12:44
Speaker 4: penetrate her organs and kill her. Randall is six two
12:49
Speaker 4: hundred and thirty pounds. Kathy was very demure, very small.
12:55
Speaker 4: In addition to that, the alleged rape was clearly staged.
13:01
Speaker 4: The body was moved from a normal sleeping position to
13:06
Speaker 4: across the bed. The left leg was propped down, the
13:11
Speaker 4: right leg was propped up on a table where an
13:15
Speaker 4: alarm clock was No one could be raped in that position.
13:19
Speaker 4: All the blood was consistent to the body being moved.
13:24
Speaker 4: The underwear was neatly cut off with scissors of Kathy.
13:29
Speaker 4: There was zero trauma to her vaginal area, zero none, zero.
13:37
Speaker 4: And what the pathologist testified to in both trials was
13:43
Speaker 4: that Kathy was dead before the seaman ever entered her vagina,
13:49
Speaker 4: meaning that if someone had raped her, that person would
13:53
Speaker 4: have raped a corpse. So you had an extraordinary amount
13:57
Speaker 4: of information that clearly show that someone else committed this
14:02
Speaker 4: crime other than Randall Patchet.
14:05
Speaker 1: And there's a lot more to that. You know, the
14:07
Speaker 1: idea that she was allegedly raped in that position with
14:11
Speaker 1: one leg up on the nightstand, but that the alarm
14:13
Speaker 1: clock was undisturbed didn't make any sense. Very little of
14:17
Speaker 1: this made any sense, But the detectives ignored the statements
14:21
Speaker 1: of Randall's children who had been in the trailer with
14:24
Speaker 1: him all night, including one the little one that's left
14:27
Speaker 1: in the bed with him, and they had told the
14:30
Speaker 1: detectives that he had never left the trailer that night
14:33
Speaker 1: and that they would have heard it if he had,
14:35
Speaker 1: that he hadn't showered. He had no blood on him,
14:37
Speaker 1: of course, which we know it was a bloody struggle.
14:40
Speaker 1: They didn't search his residence or his car, nor did
14:43
Speaker 1: they search Judy's residence or car, and an investigator clumsily,
14:48
Speaker 1: supposedly accidentally, let's call it, that destroyed a bloody fingerprint
14:52
Speaker 1: on Kathy's body. So six weeks go by October fifth,
14:58
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety Randall, they come and rescue it, and then
15:03
Speaker 1: you were charged with capital murderer.
15:05
Speaker 2: I was at my in law's home, Ketty's parents. I
15:09
Speaker 2: went over there, me, me and the kids. I guess
15:13
Speaker 2: the police were following me or what. I don't know
15:16
Speaker 2: how they knew I was there. It was in a
15:18
Speaker 2: town about thirty miles away from where I live. Anyways,
15:21
Speaker 2: there was a knock on the door and mother in
15:24
Speaker 2: law said there was someone to see me. And I
15:28
Speaker 2: went outside and the detective says, you're under the rest
15:32
Speaker 2: for the murder of Katy. I said, you rested their
15:37
Speaker 2: own person. They put the handcuffs on me and said,
15:41
Speaker 2: let me go back in tell my children by no,
15:44
Speaker 2: you can't do that. And man, my mind was spinning.
15:51
Speaker 2: I didn't know what was happening. And I was gravely
15:54
Speaker 2: concerned about my kids. They don't have a mother, now
15:58
Speaker 2: they don't have a father, and what's going to happen
16:02
Speaker 2: to them. But I was only in jail, I think
16:07
Speaker 2: about three days. I didn't need a thing I could eat,
16:12
Speaker 2: but anyhows, I got bonded out after about three days.
16:16
Speaker 2: So that part of my incarceration was kind of quick.
16:21
Speaker 2: But the other part, when I got to prison was
16:24
Speaker 2: kind of long.
16:25
Speaker 1: That's a whole different story death row. We'll get to that.
16:28
Speaker 1: But Richard, in your book, you talk about the first trial,
16:32
Speaker 1: and unlike most of the people that we've interviewed on
16:35
Speaker 1: the show, Randall had not just competent but highly skilled
16:40
Speaker 1: attorneys on the first trial. But they were up against
16:43
Speaker 1: it because the state, well they broke the rules. To
16:47
Speaker 1: put it mildly, they withheld evidence that I think would
16:51
Speaker 1: be deemed to be exculpatory until the very last minute.
16:55
Speaker 1: And there was other stuff going on. So can you
16:59
Speaker 1: walk us through to first trial and explain to us
17:02
Speaker 1: how it ended up the way it did.
17:05
Speaker 4: Randall did have good lawyers, and they retained an expert
17:10
Speaker 4: in DNA, and when the expert was cross examined, the
17:16
Speaker 4: expert had to concede that the DNA testing of the
17:21
Speaker 4: semen was consistent with the DNA of Randall, meaning that
17:27
Speaker 4: the expert basically confirmed the state's case. So once Randall testified,
17:33
Speaker 4: the jury was pretty uninterested because they made up their mind.
17:38
Speaker 1: And there's more to this than that as well, because
17:40
Speaker 1: what I was making reference to before is the fact
17:43
Speaker 1: that there was blood at the scene, which is typical
17:46
Speaker 1: in a case where someone had stabbed numerous times, because
17:50
Speaker 1: the stabber in this case, the murderer would normally cut
17:55
Speaker 1: themselves because the knife gets slippery and done the demonstrations
17:59
Speaker 1: so many times, we just take a pen and you
18:01
Speaker 1: stab a book or a table or whatever, and by
18:03
Speaker 1: the third time down, your hand's already down on what
18:05
Speaker 1: would be the blade. So that's why we almost always
18:09
Speaker 1: find blood from the person doing the stabbing at the
18:11
Speaker 1: crime scene, and in this case that was also the case.
18:14
Speaker 1: Plus it was a violent struggle, and we know that
18:17
Speaker 1: Kathy fought for her life and she scratched the assailant
18:21
Speaker 1: numerous times. So there was blood found at the crime
18:25
Speaker 1: scene that was not Kathy's and it was not Randal's.
18:29
Speaker 2: You're in the first trial. There was one point in
18:32
Speaker 2: time when the zerologist was on the stand testifying that
18:36
Speaker 2: my bloodtop had changed from one day to the next,
18:40
Speaker 2: and he had never seen that happen. And here's twenty
18:43
Speaker 2: five years of work. I thought, well, I'm not going
18:45
Speaker 2: to get on your feet. I'm going to go home today.
18:48
Speaker 1: So the rologist is up on the stand saying Randall's
18:52
Speaker 1: blood type changed, which we know isn't a thing. It can't,
18:56
Speaker 1: I mean. So the conclusion is that there was blood
19:00
Speaker 1: from the scene that they were testing that did not
19:03
Speaker 1: belong to Randal and was also not Kathy's, so mixed
19:07
Speaker 1: in with Kathy's blood, someone else's blood was at the
19:11
Speaker 1: crime scene, but the prosecution did not hand over that
19:16
Speaker 1: evidence until after the DNA experts who had come to
19:18
Speaker 1: town to testify had already left. And then Randall's lawyer
19:22
Speaker 1: appropriately asked for a mistrial, and the judge seemingly inappropriately
19:26
Speaker 1: denied the motion. So this is where things start to
19:29
Speaker 1: really stack up and where you know, you can start
19:32
Speaker 1: to understand or I can how the jury would have
19:36
Speaker 1: found Randall guilty because it was hard for them to
19:39
Speaker 1: get past the idea of how could his sperm have
19:42
Speaker 1: ended up inside of her when he said he hadn't
19:44
Speaker 1: seen her in such and such amount of time and
19:47
Speaker 1: that is a you know, that's a pretty big albatross.
19:50
Speaker 1: But this other evidence was either ignored with hell, there
19:54
Speaker 1: were searches that were not done. There was all sorts
19:57
Speaker 1: of leads left unexplored.
20:00
Speaker 4: The huge pink elephant in the room was Randall's ex paramore,
20:07
Speaker 4: Judy Smith. Neither side was willing to call her to
20:11
Speaker 4: testify in the first trial. The state would have given
20:16
Speaker 4: her immunity if she would have implicated Randall, but she
20:19
Speaker 4: wouldn't do it. So Judy never testified in the first trial,
20:26
Speaker 4: and the video that we talked about earlier of Randall
20:29
Speaker 4: going through the crime scene with the detectives was not
20:33
Speaker 4: played either. The interesting twist in this case is that
20:37
Speaker 4: the jury found him guilty and recommended a life without
20:42
Speaker 4: parole sentence. In that time, Alabama had an override statue,
20:48
Speaker 4: and the trial judge overwrote it and sentenced Randall to death.
20:54
Speaker 1: So Randall, that's May twenty second, nineteen ninety two, us
21:00
Speaker 1: through that awful, awful moment.
21:03
Speaker 2: Well my twenty second, that was my birthday. Matter of fact,
21:09
Speaker 2: the sentence, I mean that bothered me a lot. But
21:12
Speaker 2: I could anybody think that I would do such a thing.
21:18
Speaker 2: And then they're going to kill the wrong person. Somebody's
21:22
Speaker 2: up there that really done this and it's not me.
21:27
Speaker 2: The whole world is going to believe what the court says.
21:31
Speaker 2: The court says I'm guilty and that I must be
21:35
Speaker 2: put to death.
21:37
Speaker 1: As a father myself, the idea of you being torn
21:42
Speaker 1: away from your kids, who you now have even a
21:45
Speaker 1: more intense responsibility to care for and protect after everything
21:51
Speaker 1: they've been through and now they're effectively being orphaned, and
21:54
Speaker 1: you're thrust into the most horrible situation imaginable and being
22:01
Speaker 1: torn away from the people.
22:02
Speaker 3: You love the most at the same time.
22:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's horrible and helpless. Flect. I can't help myself.
22:08
Speaker 2: Nothing I can do is going to help my children.
22:21
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23:10
Speaker 2: When I got to prison, it was it was I
23:14
Speaker 2: don't know, about ten o'clock at night and never been
23:18
Speaker 2: in a prison. Go in and it's all loud. People
23:23
Speaker 2: locked up there. They're screaming, and you hear the metal
23:25
Speaker 2: doors slamming shut and open, and that strip hole you
23:30
Speaker 2: close off, and they spread you down with some kind
23:33
Speaker 2: of chemical handcuffs and shackle on your legs and a
23:39
Speaker 2: chain going from your hands to your feet and then
23:43
Speaker 2: chain around your waist and all that lot and say
23:47
Speaker 2: little bitty stay ups back to where death throw was,
23:50
Speaker 2: and the guard would holler, and somebody would slide a
23:55
Speaker 2: metal door open and it'd slide behind you and the
23:58
Speaker 2: other inmates yelling at you and all this stuff and screaming,
24:03
Speaker 2: and get back to my little cell, which is I
24:09
Speaker 2: think was five feet by eight or nine feet and
24:15
Speaker 2: there's no lot in there, a lot boy but shot
24:21
Speaker 2: and it was completely dark. And get in there. They
24:27
Speaker 2: take the cuss off of me and slammed the door
24:29
Speaker 2: behind me and im and I'm all alone on a
24:34
Speaker 2: different planet. And I can remember I kept thinking, I'm
24:41
Speaker 2: gonna get out of here. I'm gonna get out here,
24:43
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get out here. But after years went by,
24:46
Speaker 2: I remember carried up one night in the feet of
24:50
Speaker 2: position and just won't to give up, and I'm going
24:55
Speaker 2: to die. I don't die in this place, and nobody don't.
24:58
Speaker 2: The whole world don't care of world to be glad
25:01
Speaker 2: when I do. But finally I got closer to God
25:07
Speaker 2: than I've ever been in my life. I was confident
25:11
Speaker 2: that God wouldn't want to let me die for something
25:14
Speaker 2: I didn't do, and he didn't. You get me out
25:19
Speaker 2: of there through Richard Jeffish.
25:24
Speaker 1: Wow, Richard, to the table's turn. When you got involved?
25:30
Speaker 1: But how did you come to be involved? And I'm
25:34
Speaker 1: so fascinated by the process and the way you describe
25:37
Speaker 1: it in the book, the decisions that you had to make,
25:40
Speaker 1: which are actually literally life and death decisions because you
25:44
Speaker 1: are the backstop. Right Have you failed, Randall would have
25:48
Speaker 1: been put to death. So can you pick us through
25:51
Speaker 1: that whole process.
25:52
Speaker 4: The way that I met Brenda Massingil, who later and
25:58
Speaker 4: currently became Randall's wife, they hardly knew each other, but
26:02
Speaker 4: I was speaking at the sixteenth Street Baptist Church in
26:06
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety two, that's where the four young girls were
26:11
Speaker 4: murdered in the bombing of the church, and we were
26:14
Speaker 4: speaking on the death penalty. It was a kind of
26:18
Speaker 4: a small rally. Brenda approached me after I spoke and
26:22
Speaker 4: asked me if I had heard of Randall's case. I hadn't,
26:25
Speaker 4: and I refused to intervene at that point because he
26:30
Speaker 4: was well represented and I didn't expect ever to hear
26:34
Speaker 4: from anyone again about that. And then a few years later,
26:38
Speaker 4: in ninety five, Randall's family called the office through Brenda
26:41
Speaker 4: and wanted to meet with me. Randall's case had been
26:44
Speaker 4: reversed because the prosecution had failed to disclose the blood
26:51
Speaker 4: typing evidence that was, as you say, exculpatory, and because
26:57
Speaker 4: of that Randall was given a new trial. So when
27:01
Speaker 4: I got involved, I began to learn immediately all kinds
27:06
Speaker 4: of things about Judy, about her history, about how she
27:13
Speaker 4: was totally obsessed with Randall to the point where she
27:18
Speaker 4: actually constructed in her home a duplication of Randall's children's bedroom.
27:26
Speaker 4: And Judy had actually confronted Kathy prior to the murder
27:34
Speaker 4: in a church parking lot. Judy had a raincoat on
27:38
Speaker 4: and sunglasses on a Wednesday night. Cathy went to church
27:42
Speaker 4: every Wednesday night. Judy was hiding in Kathy's backseat. There
27:46
Speaker 4: was a confrontation. A church deacon broke it up.
27:50
Speaker 2: When Kathy told me about that, Judy came up with
27:54
Speaker 2: you know, I just wanted to talk to her. And
27:57
Speaker 2: I wasn't dressed up thing more than my normal dress,
28:02
Speaker 2: and so I don't know, I guess I'll let the
28:05
Speaker 2: devil tak me into kind of believing that Judy wasn't
28:10
Speaker 2: anything that was no good and instead of believing it
28:15
Speaker 2: can't be like I should have. And I can't explain it.
28:18
Speaker 2: It was just a crazy time in my life.
28:21
Speaker 4: The problem that Judy was having was patience. Because Randall
28:27
Speaker 4: separated from Kathy, several times, but each time came back
28:32
Speaker 4: to her. On this occasion, when the brutal murder happened,
28:38
Speaker 4: it became clear to me that Judy wasn't going to
28:44
Speaker 4: take the chance of the divorce not going through. So
28:49
Speaker 4: apparently she took matters in her own hands. And then
28:53
Speaker 4: now we have a gory, horrific, unimaginable crime scene that
29:00
Speaker 4: ultimately led to Randall's arrest, conviction, and death sentence.
29:07
Speaker 1: Randall, were there any other moments besides the church parking
29:10
Speaker 1: lot incident that kind of made you think to yourself,
29:12
Speaker 1: you know, Judy might just be a little bit.
29:16
Speaker 2: Off thinking back through all the stuff. I remember one time,
29:22
Speaker 2: when this was before Kethy got killed, when I was
29:26
Speaker 2: at Judy's place and I saw a zip blocked bag
29:30
Speaker 2: that had some I'm a smoker, I had some cigarette
29:33
Speaker 2: butts in it and some fingernail clippings. What is this?
29:38
Speaker 2: And Oh, I love you so much. I wanted to
29:42
Speaker 2: save these, you know, And I said, well, what a
29:44
Speaker 2: thing to say, is what I'm thinking. But thinking back,
29:47
Speaker 2: you know, she might have been up to some mischief
29:50
Speaker 2: with that, so I don't.
29:54
Speaker 1: Know, And then, you know, then things get weirder, right,
29:58
Speaker 1: you are investigator. I'm forgetting his name now. Who was
30:01
Speaker 1: the investigator in this case.
30:03
Speaker 4: Our investigator was Rick Blake, and he was our in
30:06
Speaker 4: house investigator, and he was amazing. What was really fascinating
30:11
Speaker 4: is is that after the murder, Judy took two weeks
30:15
Speaker 4: off from work, two weeks off, and we developed evidence
30:20
Speaker 4: that Judy had scratch marks all up and down her arms,
30:26
Speaker 4: meaning that she was apparently in some type of vicious
30:31
Speaker 4: life or death struggle, and so she stayed at home
30:34
Speaker 4: until those scratches healed. Another thing is is that Judy's
30:38
Speaker 4: blood was never tested, her DNA was never tested, her
30:43
Speaker 4: home was never searched, her car was never searched. The police,
30:48
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, completely ignored her as I suspect.
30:52
Speaker 1: Listen, if somebody had done this work that you did
30:54
Speaker 1: all those years later. Initially, it's entirely possible, maybe even likely,
31:00
Speaker 1: that the trial, the first trial, would have ended up
31:02
Speaker 1: in an acquittal, because there's more right. There's also a
31:06
Speaker 1: truck driver who came forward who said that he had
31:08
Speaker 1: seen a car matching the description of Judy's car, which
31:11
Speaker 1: was a very distinct car right a hubcap of a
31:14
Speaker 1: certain color, leaving Kathy's home in the middle of the night.
31:18
Speaker 1: That's pretty powerful. It's hard to come up with a
31:22
Speaker 1: good excuse for that. But then comes the craziest part
31:27
Speaker 1: of all of this, right and again, your investigator had
31:32
Speaker 1: you know. I reread the chapter in your book this
31:36
Speaker 1: morning talking about how he had gone to beauty parlors
31:41
Speaker 1: trying to find people who knew Judy, thinking that in
31:45
Speaker 1: the town, a small town with only a few beauty parlors,
31:48
Speaker 1: she might have frequented one of them. And sure enough,
31:50
Speaker 1: he found people that knew her. And what he discovered
31:52
Speaker 1: from that point turns out to be really important evidence
31:57
Speaker 1: and really bizarre.
31:58
Speaker 4: He found three different people that told him clearly that
32:04
Speaker 4: Judy had this fetish with saving her then ex husband
32:09
Speaker 4: Tommy Smith Simon and putting it in milkshakes.
32:14
Speaker 2: I can remember before Kathy was killed, usually after six,
32:23
Speaker 2: we would both I'm talking about Judy would go up
32:26
Speaker 2: to sleep. I don't know weeks before Kathy was killed.
32:31
Speaker 2: After six, Judy she would immediately get up, go to
32:35
Speaker 2: the bedroom. Then, while I'm sitting in there in prison,
32:39
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what was she doing in the bathroom? Was
32:41
Speaker 2: she saving some stuff? I don't know, But I don't.
32:45
Speaker 4: Know Rick Blake, our investigator. He found three different people.
32:50
Speaker 4: We tried to get all three to court, but we
32:53
Speaker 4: could only get one, the milkshake lady. She was one
32:56
Speaker 4: of the three that Judy had discuss this whipt on
33:00
Speaker 4: many occasions, and we hauled her to testify and it
33:05
Speaker 4: was dynamic and powerful, and the prosecution did everything they
33:10
Speaker 4: could to keep it out.
33:12
Speaker 1: I mean, I've told this story to a fair number
33:16
Speaker 1: of people and it doesn't get crazier than that. And
33:21
Speaker 1: that wasn't all though, Richard, the trial itself.
33:25
Speaker 4: The biggest decision that I've ever had to make in
33:29
Speaker 4: any trial was whether to call Judy to testify. That
33:36
Speaker 4: was crucial because again the prosecution kept holding out immunity
33:43
Speaker 4: if she testify against Randall. We were back in the
33:46
Speaker 4: judge's chambers. Time would run out. The judge looked up
33:49
Speaker 4: and said, all right, call your next witness, and I said,
33:54
Speaker 4: we're going to call Judy Smith. And at that point
33:57
Speaker 4: the prosecutors jaws rocked to the floor. It was stunned
34:03
Speaker 4: silence because no one believed we had the I guess
34:08
Speaker 4: they guts to call her, and we did, and her
34:12
Speaker 4: testimony was the most both powerful and bizarre testimony anyone
34:19
Speaker 4: could envision. On the one hand, she testified that she
34:24
Speaker 4: prayed every night. She loved Randall so much that every
34:29
Speaker 4: night she prayed that something would happen to Kathy and
34:33
Speaker 4: that she would get killed in a car wreck so
34:35
Speaker 4: she could be with Randall, and she still loved him.
34:38
Speaker 4: When I asked her about her ability to enter the home,
34:45
Speaker 4: it slipped from her mouth almost that there was a
34:50
Speaker 4: and I knew she meant key that was hidden in
34:54
Speaker 4: a particular place for Randall's children to get when they
34:59
Speaker 4: return home from school. Well, she knew about it where
35:01
Speaker 4: it was hidden, and that slipped out of her mouth almost.
35:04
Speaker 4: She tried to take it back, but she couldn't. And
35:07
Speaker 4: Drawors remembered that during deliberations. But the most powerful thing
35:12
Speaker 4: was and again you point out something very, very so crucial,
35:17
Speaker 4: as every question asked of a witness in a death
35:22
Speaker 4: penalty case, especially a witness like her, Judy could be
35:27
Speaker 4: the bomb that destroy you. It could be the landmine
35:31
Speaker 4: that blows the case up. So every question had to
35:34
Speaker 4: be so measured. But I asked her, if that is
35:38
Speaker 4: Randall's DNA in Kathy's vaginal canal, how do you think
35:44
Speaker 4: it got there, it's an objectionable question, but the prosecution
35:50
Speaker 4: didn't object because clearly they thought that she would either
35:55
Speaker 4: say I have no idea, but her answer was if
36:00
Speaker 4: that was Randall's DNA, and it had to have come
36:05
Speaker 4: from me in that standing room only courtroom and you
36:11
Speaker 4: could hear a pin drop.
36:23
Speaker 1: So the jury now has heard her try to walk
36:28
Speaker 1: back her explanation of how she could have gotten into
36:32
Speaker 1: the house, because, of course, one of the things that
36:33
Speaker 1: the prosecution theory hinged on was the idea that there
36:36
Speaker 1: was no break in. There was no signs of breaking
36:38
Speaker 1: and entering, so it must have been somebody logically who
36:41
Speaker 1: knew Kathy and was admitted into the house. But now
36:44
Speaker 1: that the key and the location of the key was
36:46
Speaker 1: known to Judy and that was out in the open,
36:49
Speaker 1: that was one thing. And now, of course her making
36:51
Speaker 1: this unbelievable admission in open court is a huge moment.
36:56
Speaker 1: But even still, the jury goes to deliberate Randall, what
37:03
Speaker 1: did you think they were gone for close to three
37:06
Speaker 1: full days. Did you allow yourself to hope that they
37:11
Speaker 1: would come back with a not growthy verdict or were
37:14
Speaker 1: you what were you thinking?
37:18
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think I slipped any here those three days,
37:23
Speaker 2: going back and forth to the jail, which was to
37:26
Speaker 2: cross the street in the courthouse, but I had.
37:30
Speaker 1: Hope and Richard. So the jury's out two and a
37:34
Speaker 1: half days and the judge is basically at his wits end,
37:38
Speaker 1: I would say, and is on the verge of declaring
37:43
Speaker 1: a mistrial, which would have been devastating. Did you talk
37:47
Speaker 1: about this in the book as well? How the judge
37:50
Speaker 1: called you and the prosecution team into his chambers, I
37:54
Speaker 1: guess right for a conference.
37:56
Speaker 4: He did, and he was very clear. He said, gentlemen,
38:01
Speaker 4: I'm going to declara mistrial. I don't believe in forcing
38:05
Speaker 4: drawers to give up o their feelings and beliefs. And
38:10
Speaker 4: I tried to talk him out of it, and he went, no,
38:12
Speaker 4: I've made up my mind. And this is a judge
38:15
Speaker 4: that when he makes up his mind, he does. As
38:17
Speaker 4: we filed out into the courtroom, I was the last
38:21
Speaker 4: one other than he was behind me. As we began
38:24
Speaker 4: to enter the courtroom, I turned around, I looked at
38:27
Speaker 4: him right in the eyes, and I went, judge just
38:30
Speaker 4: asked the jurors if they think they can come to
38:34
Speaker 4: a verdict. He didn't say anything. We sat down, he
38:40
Speaker 4: faced the jury. He said, ladies and gentlemen, I have
38:44
Speaker 4: no choice but two. And then he paused just for
38:48
Speaker 4: a second, and he turned to his left and looked
38:51
Speaker 4: me right in the eye, and we locked. And then
38:56
Speaker 4: he turned back around to the jury and he did
38:58
Speaker 4: a one eighty. He said, is there anyone on the
39:02
Speaker 4: jury that believes that you could come to a unanimous verdict?
39:09
Speaker 4: And two or three people nodded their heads and said yes.
39:15
Speaker 4: I was stunned or a reversal. The jury went back
39:21
Speaker 4: to deliberate. The courthouse continued to be totally packed, standing
39:25
Speaker 4: room only, and people were basically in prayer. And forty
39:31
Speaker 4: five minutes later they came out and it was not guilty.
39:37
Speaker 1: Now, I'm not gonna lie. I cried this morning when
39:40
Speaker 1: I read the book and I knew the story, I'd
39:42
Speaker 1: read it before. Randy, what was that moment like when
39:48
Speaker 1: you were vindicated and you were on the verge of
39:51
Speaker 1: being returned to your family, to your community, your good
39:55
Speaker 1: name was given back to you. I can't imagine. Can
39:58
Speaker 1: please explain?
40:01
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if I can, But like I
40:06
Speaker 2: had been held underwater to the point of drownding, I
40:11
Speaker 2: had to come up and I'm at the point where
40:14
Speaker 2: I'm either going to drowned or not, and then the
40:19
Speaker 2: not guilty bird it just pulls me up into the air.
40:22
Speaker 2: I can breathe again, and I'm going to live. It
40:26
Speaker 2: was just total jubilation.
40:29
Speaker 1: And you hadn't really slept or eating in a few days,
40:32
Speaker 1: as you said, so.
40:36
Speaker 2: The judge, I remember Judd saying, and you're free to go,
40:39
Speaker 2: mister Paget and Jaylor came over to take me back
40:43
Speaker 2: to the jail, would have someone to get my stuff,
40:47
Speaker 2: and I going back to jail and could keep my stuff,
40:52
Speaker 2: you know. And then my son, who had grown and
40:55
Speaker 2: got his driver's license, got to drive his daddy home.
41:00
Speaker 2: Was just wonderful, wonderful, Richard, What about you?
41:05
Speaker 4: It was a feeling of elation that it's really hard
41:09
Speaker 4: to imagine unless you have heard not guilties on death
41:14
Speaker 4: fumily cases before. This being a retrial made it all
41:18
Speaker 4: that much more unimaginable.
41:22
Speaker 1: No, you have the best job in the world, at
41:25
Speaker 1: least on days like that. You do. Now, before we
41:29
Speaker 1: go to the closing of the show, talk about the
41:32
Speaker 1: juror who approached you on your way out of the courtroom.
41:37
Speaker 2: Richard.
41:38
Speaker 1: Probably the credit for the jury's correct not guilty verdict,
41:43
Speaker 1: A lot of it goes to her at.
41:44
Speaker 2: The end of the day.
41:46
Speaker 4: That's exactly right what happens in these trials. Having tried
41:50
Speaker 4: hundreds myself, you often misread drawers. We thought that the
41:57
Speaker 4: older lady and a younger lady, the one you're talking of,
42:01
Speaker 4: probably in her forties, we thought that they hated us,
42:06
Speaker 4: But it was the opposite. The initial vote was eight
42:09
Speaker 4: to four for guilty, we later learned. And when we
42:15
Speaker 4: walked out of the courtroom towards our car, the one
42:20
Speaker 4: you allude to, the female, the forty year old forty
42:23
Speaker 4: something you old, walked up to me and said, mister Jaffie,
42:25
Speaker 4: can have a word with you? And I said, sure,
42:28
Speaker 4: she said, and she just looked at me right in
42:31
Speaker 4: the eye, was like a foot from her, and she said,
42:33
Speaker 4: you know, only a woman would know you can't have
42:38
Speaker 4: sex in that position. So I climbed on the table
42:45
Speaker 4: and put my right leg up and my left leg down,
42:50
Speaker 4: and I made it clear to the mostly male jury
42:54
Speaker 4: that Randall Paget could not have had sex with Cas
43:00
Speaker 4: in that position, and that flipped other jurors and ultimately
43:05
Speaker 4: All twelve found Randall not guilty. The last thing she
43:09
Speaker 4: said to me was you tell Randal Paga to stay
43:12
Speaker 4: away from Judy Smith and go spend time with his kids.
43:17
Speaker 2: And then we walked away.
43:20
Speaker 4: And the truth is that Randall hadn't seen Judy since
43:24
Speaker 4: the night at the police station when they arrived back
43:27
Speaker 4: from Florida, and he of course hasn't since.
43:33
Speaker 1: Do you know what became of Judy Smith after all
43:36
Speaker 1: these years?
43:38
Speaker 2: I don't know, Richard.
43:40
Speaker 1: Is it strange to you that they never prosecuted her?
43:44
Speaker 4: It's not strange because the prosecution had already publicly made
43:49
Speaker 4: it clear that they didn't think she was involved at
43:51
Speaker 4: all and knew nothing. So the chances of them getting
43:56
Speaker 4: a conviction while it existed weren't really high. And I
44:01
Speaker 4: think the prosecution was just done with that case. They
44:04
Speaker 4: had pretty much been embarrassed enough, I guess.
44:09
Speaker 1: And Randall before I keep saying this, but one last
44:12
Speaker 1: question before we get to the wrap up, how are
44:16
Speaker 1: your kids doing? These poor children had to live through
44:20
Speaker 1: a nightmare that is unimaginable, you know, losing their mom
44:25
Speaker 1: and then almost losing their dad, losing their dad for
44:28
Speaker 1: six years. How are they doing now?
44:31
Speaker 2: Well, they're doing good, and I've got three granddaughters now
44:38
Speaker 2: from them. My son has two little red headed girls.
44:43
Speaker 2: He lives in Nashville and he's an architect. My daughter
44:47
Speaker 2: lives in Alabama and one time was president of the
44:51
Speaker 2: company she worked for. She's since moved to a different
44:56
Speaker 2: place of than go woman, and she has one little girl.
45:00
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of them and love them.
45:03
Speaker 1: The basis, well, that's great, and I wish them all
45:08
Speaker 1: the blessings in the world because they deserve. As to you,
45:12
Speaker 1: everything good. So now we come to the wrap up
45:17
Speaker 1: of our show, which is a segment that is my
45:20
Speaker 1: favorite part call closing Arguments, where I first of all,
45:23
Speaker 1: thank both of you, Richard Jaffe, criminal defense lawyer, author
45:29
Speaker 1: and amazing advocate, Thank you for being here, and of
45:32
Speaker 1: course Randall, thank you Randall Paget for sharing your story
45:37
Speaker 1: so eloquently and beautifully. And this part of the show
45:40
Speaker 1: is where I get to kick back in my chair,
45:44
Speaker 1: switch off my microphone, and let you just share any
45:48
Speaker 1: other thoughts that you may want to share with our audience. Randall,
45:51
Speaker 1: we're going to save you for last. If that's okay, Richard,
45:55
Speaker 1: You're first.
45:55
Speaker 4: It has been a true privilege, honor, and joy to
46:01
Speaker 4: get to know and represent Randall Paget and become close
46:07
Speaker 4: with he and his now wife, Brenda Massenguel of fifteen years.
46:15
Speaker 4: This is the kind of case where reality really trump's fiction,
46:21
Speaker 4: because had it not been for the failure to disclose
46:27
Speaker 4: the exculpatory conflicting information of blood typing, Randall would never
46:35
Speaker 4: have got a chance for a new trial. And it
46:38
Speaker 4: amazes me that the prosecution hid that until it was
46:42
Speaker 4: too late. The only other thing I would say would
46:46
Speaker 4: be that law enforcement often excludes a wider investigation once
46:53
Speaker 4: they focus on one suspect, and when that happens, the
46:59
Speaker 4: wrong person can easily be convicted. And a really thorough
47:06
Speaker 4: investigation would have revealed the truth that Randall was innocent.
47:14
Speaker 4: And I thank God that Randall is here with us
47:19
Speaker 4: to share his story. He is a true salt of
47:23
Speaker 4: the earth human being.
47:26
Speaker 2: Randall. I would just like to say, I think mister
47:29
Speaker 2: Richard Jeffy is the greatest attorney in the world. He
47:34
Speaker 2: believed in me, He believed the truth. I want to
47:38
Speaker 2: thank Richard. I will love you Richard very much. One
47:43
Speaker 2: thing about me, I guess I was naive about the
47:51
Speaker 2: justice system in America. I had heard of people getting
47:56
Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted. I didn't pay much attention to it, but
48:01
Speaker 2: but I thought, you know, when you go to trial
48:04
Speaker 2: in the United States, the foremost thing in the court's
48:09
Speaker 2: mind is supposed to be the truth. But I don't
48:11
Speaker 2: think it works that way. I think if a piece
48:14
Speaker 2: of truth comes up, that's bad for whichever side. I
48:19
Speaker 2: think it gets twisted around or or try to cover
48:22
Speaker 2: it up or something. And I guess for people listening
48:26
Speaker 2: to this, if you're ever sitting on a jury, I
48:32
Speaker 2: would ask that you don't just believe because a defendant
48:36
Speaker 2: has been accused of something that he probably did something
48:40
Speaker 2: or he wouldn't be there. And I would ask that
48:44
Speaker 2: you would make the prosecution show you some concrete proof
48:49
Speaker 2: to back up what they're saying. If I got just
48:55
Speaker 2: one other minute, I'd like to talk about my friend
48:59
Speaker 2: and now wife, Brenda. When I was in prison, she
49:04
Speaker 2: was so nice to me. She was trying to raise
49:06
Speaker 2: money for me and writing legal aid places. I think
49:10
Speaker 2: she wrote the governor and I don't know who all.
49:13
Speaker 2: I thought, well, why is this woman being so nice
49:15
Speaker 2: to me? I thought she's a spy for the prosecution,
49:20
Speaker 2: because I was pretty sure I was going to get
49:22
Speaker 2: a retrial because prosecution had withheld that exculpatory evidence. And
49:28
Speaker 2: I thought, yeah, they know it's going to be a retrial.
49:31
Speaker 2: And she's a spy, and she kept wanting to come
49:34
Speaker 2: and visit me, and I wouldn't let her. I thought,
49:36
Speaker 2: if I don't let her come down here, she can't
49:39
Speaker 2: say I said something. But if I do let her come,
49:43
Speaker 2: she can go back and say Randal said this. Randal
49:46
Speaker 2: said that I wouldn't let her come. And a couple
49:50
Speaker 2: of years, all my letters dwindled away except hers, and
49:56
Speaker 2: so finally, through her letters, got to trust and she
50:02
Speaker 2: did not be a spy but a great hey yep,
50:08
Speaker 2: And after I got out, we've married about five years later.
50:11
Speaker 2: But he's the most wonderful person.
50:19
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
50:22
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
50:26
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
50:28
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
50:32
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
50:36
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
50:39
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
50:42
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
50:44
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
50:47
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at.
50:51
Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction podcast.
50:53
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
50:56
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one.
51:00
Speaker 2: I hope you may the land of your