Latest / Monero Talk / Privacy in Focus ETH Denver w/ Luke Parker, SirJamz & Seth Estrada | EPI #301

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Privacy in Focus ETH Denver w/ Luke Parker, SirJamz & Seth Estrada | EPI #301 · Monero Talk

• Doug All right, we got Sir James and Luke, Luke Parker. What's going on, guys? Sir Jamz Yes, we are together. It's been a busy, wild ride out here. Like everybody's got monkey brain. Everybody's busy, but we're coordinating. Here we are. Doug Tell everybody where you are for those that haven't seen you on Twitter this past week, although I think most people have, but give everybody a rundown of where you're at. Sir Jamz Here we are, East Denver, Denver, Colorado, dry and high. Doug And you somehow found Luke, which is amazing. How did you guys even find each other? Luke So I actually put out a tweet noting that, hi, I'm here at Eftemver. If anyone wants to come talk about privacy, Surai, threshold DCDSA, one of the other things I'm really just a nerve about, please reach out, come and find me, I'd be happy to talk. Sir Jamz Who was the first person that reached out to you? Luke Uh, no, I think you were second. You were second or third. I'm pretty sure this one person reached out about threshold ECDSA like a few hours before you. All right. Doug Sir James is hurt, he's hurt Luke I can't be yeah, I can't be held responsible for them being slow. I'm sorry you got to work on that yourself do some agility Sir Jamz It's a lot out here, you know, I've got three phones running and staying on top of your tech You know everything charged so that you can communicate with people and scan all the QR codes and all the telegram. Sir Jamz Yeah, it's pretty wild Doug Luke doesn't have time for that. Right, Luke? Luke No, I have a lot of technology myself. I've been managing, I've been going to events, talking to people. Doug No, right. Luke It's been. Doug I just want to I just want to give a little background here So actually Sir James a lot and I tried recording yesterday, but we had a lot of sound issues And then Sir James found this studio today. So we're giving it a record So Sir James, just let you know I may be I may repeat some of the things we spoke about yesterday So just be ready for that because I want to show people what you've been up to this week Do you want to quickly give people like a little bit of rundown on what you've been up to? Doug Absolutely Sir Jamz Let's welcome our good friend here. We got mine. Oh shit. And now we got my Doug This is amazing. Seth Hey, hey, yes. Hey, what's going on? Luke man. It's the first time we're meeting Luke. It is great to meet you Luke. Woo! Thanks for saying that into your microphone. I would not have heard it otherwise. I am media trained. Seth Oh my gosh. Yeah, you got it. This guy's a life -saver. Look at that. He knows how to work a mic. Sir Jamz All right, yeah, what's up, man? Doug Thanks for jumping on Seth. Appreciate it. Seth Doug absolutely loved the work that you're putting into the community and the space. So when he told me that we're going to do something live from this event, I was like, obviously I got to go support. Seth Couldn't not be here. Doug Well, we are we're recorded, but we'll get it out there as soon as possible. Seth There's still a vibe here that we're feeling and that I want to be in recording. Luke great levels a bit warbly you really have to make sure your mouth stays pointed at the microphone as you speak can't be looking around too much you can move your eyes but not your lips that's Seth tough because I see Doug there. My eye line is Doug's right there. Our eye line is that Doug is right there. Yeah, maybe you're moving. Doug Mike a little bit or something yeah Seth Do we go rock star here we go. It's coming. Oh, yeah, there you go. Doug Yeah. All right, well, listen, I don't want to, we will get to Seth and Luke, but I want Sir James a lot to give us kind of the rundown of Eat Them, for what you've been up to this week, because I've been seeing you all over Twitter. Doug You're doing amazing work out there talking to people about Monero. And I just want to give you a chance to talk about these things as I show your Kuno, because I know you were doing a Kuno with regards to this as well. Doug So go ahead and tell us all about it, Sir James. Sir Jamz I came to ETH Denver a few years ago and I had, that's when I was just learning about Monero and becoming interested and I met a man here and he was super into it and we talked about it for a few days and eventually I just asked him straight up and said, man I got some cash, can I buy some of this stuff from you? Sir Jamz I want to learn about it. So then yeah, we did a cash OTC P2P deal right there and then I've just been really passionate and learning and learning since then. So I saw ETH Denver was coming back and my friend was coming to it and was trying to drag me along and just couldn't connect with that. Sir Jamz Then I thought, I'm not coming to talk about Monero and that's when I started the Coon O. I thought, hey guys, why don't you pitch in and we'll get some swag and some gear to pass out. So I launched the Coon O and it's stacked a few XMR so we bought some stuff and we headed out. Luke decided to be the man. And after several decades of being the man, having mastered being the man, the vortex opens, and you realize that you must step into it to be the first man who set you upon this journey for the man, it's not two men, but one. Sir Jamz Thank you. Doug Any men, 16 men. Chills. But I am two men. Sir Jamz True, man. Doug I knew Seth, I knew Luke would be stealing the show. I knew this was going to happen. It's amazing. That's why you come to eat dinner. Seth B minus. Luke I can't do time traveling fan fiction about people representing Manero at East Denver. Why did I even come? Seth That's a fair question. You could even mint it as an NFT here. They'd be like, you know what? You can steal this guy. Going mobile. There you go. Done. OK. So we come to the customer, I think, too. Doug Sir James, give us a quick rundown on your experience with this girl, with Uploading. I'm boarding her to Minera. How'd that go? Sir Jamz well she's married oh oh yeah she is yeah so this girl is neighbor Doug You gave her a Monero standard? Sir Jamz hold and read through a little bit. Okay. Okay. We actually got some shots of her kind of like popping through it. She runs a DAO that sells NFTs that work with the manufacturer to create dog and cat houses and feed them. Sir Jamz And there's hundreds of these or more around different places in China. So I thought that was really cool. She'd mentioned that in some way they're not able to help dogs because the government doesn't allow it. Sir Jamz So I mentioned Monero could be a great solution for that for people that still want to do what they want to do to help but not have any repercussions. Doug Cool, cool, cool. Sir Jamz I'm a narrowchan too. She loved her. She loves, she says, she's so cool. She's, I love this girl. I said, it's you. Don't you see? And so yeah. We're getting a whole. Doug I guess coin thing. Oh guys, I'm hearing I'm hearing an echo over there now. I don't know what happened Sir Jamz Oh dear. Is it terrible? Doug I think it's okay. Luke Check one too. The audio on our end, at least to me, seems fine. I can hear the event in the background, which if that is what's phasing in, is going to be unavoidable. But I'm not hearing our voices be echoed at all. Seth There's a tiny delay here. There's some latency in this little system. They used the same one last year because this was a sponsor of the show. And so there's a tiny bit of latency for us where at least our first spoken word, we're gonna get our monitor, tiny little bit of a delay there. Seth I don't know how you would hear that though. Unless we got to the bottom. I was just hearing. Doug sharing an echo, but it's all good. It's all good now. Sir Jamz All right, we'll pick it back up today. Because I've been counting, I've talked to 100 people now, like directly about one year. Every day. Doug Have you given Manero out to all these people you're like getting a download Sir Jamz Oh, not that many. Some people are just in passing or they're working behind their booth, but most people are very interested. Luke and this is how I find out I'm not in their top 100 people they want to talk to today. Sir Jamz You're next. Let's talk. Doug And so what kind of response are you getting generally? Like you're telling people I'm an arrow, but are they just treating it like it's any other crypto? Or are they understanding the privacy coin nature of it? Doug Are they picking up on that? Are they interested in that? Or they're like, whatever, I don't care about privacy. What's kind of the feedback there? Sir Jamz 100% interested and over half already has used Monero or knows about it or has a well -developed opinion about it. So I have a few more of those recorded that I'm going to upload to Twitter later. Doug Fantastic, man. So let's jump over to Luke. Luke, are people talking about ETH to Monero atomic swaps? Are they talking about Sarai? What's going on in those regards? Luke No to the first one and then I am doing my best to talk about Surai Um, I actually went to consensus last year coin desk consensus and while there I met up with a few friends Who of course know about Surai now? Luke I was talking with them a bit loudly and then someone was walking along and they're like, oh are you guys talking about Surai? I love that project and I'm like, sorry. What do you love about it? Like I'm sorry. Luke I just think you misheard me and you're confusing the project. They're like, no You do threshold signatures, right? I'm like hell. Yeah, that's my project So that was an experience last year and this year the same guy is here So there's at least one other person talking about Surai here Which is great But yeah, it is definitely my effort to get the word out because I feel like with a lot of awareness in the Manera community Seth is very involved with the Bitcoin community and I feel like I've managed to show them on the concept of Surai So I feel like when the time comes we can have decent access to the Bitcoin community But the Ethereum community is something I don't Personally have too much ground in and I'm definitely trying to reach out about So just been discussing Let's go with the term if a transaction or protocol is unstoppable With a few different people not in any such explicit terminology, but one of the things I asked is like oh So you're a US company and you're operating a sequencer a Sequencer in these layer two networks. Luke They're building on Ethereum Is a single server that decides the order of transactions which does allow it to sensor But there's bounds on it so it's still secure to get a bit in depth If the sequencer sensors you you can publish your transaction via Ethereum itself It's just much more expensive and force them to include your transaction So it still has the security of Ethereum a decentralized network But there is the centralized component which at least in the short term can perform censorship Although a couple of the projects here are trying to decentralize that So one of the questions I went over to the base booth about base is a network by Coinbase And it's an Ethereum layer too. Luke I went over to their booth and I'm like How do you feel about the dichotomy here? Coinbase is a US? Extremely regulated company with a lot of work and advocacy and a lot of conversations going on in the political sphere Despite that you've launched this decentralized network that while it happened I believe it was after tornado cash But it could have had tornado cash deployed onto it and if it had tornado cash deployed onto it it would have been hit by sanctions and Your sequencer could have then stopped sequencing its transactions But if it's a proper layer two I can force you to sequence a transaction which would have been sanctioned So we're talking with them like how do they feel about that? Luke dichotomy or their plans to Move in the long term to a decentralized identity solution and I actually got a really positive response for them That yes, they do want to Decentralize it and keep it an open network not involved in the decentralized identity space Unless that's an app on top not a barrier to entry I also talked to the people at circle who do the usd stablecoin and they have their own Cross -chain protocol to move usdc So if you have usdc on a theorem and you want to have it on Arbitrum you can move it to arbitrum But without using a third -party protocol using circle themselves And I'm like so what happens when someone tries to you know move criminal usdc through like or usdc that chain analysis doesn't like are you looking to Flag that delay it reach out to the account for Identity documents and I actually got a really strong response. Luke You know they're Cross -chain transfer protocol cctp um Is designed to be completely permissionless and just work if you can send usdc into it you can transfer usdc and that's that well usdc does have a Block list and they do use this for criminal cases and for sanctions and so on They aren't planning to have KYC for transfers of unblocked addresses. Luke If you have an unblocked address able to use USDC, you're supposed to be able to use this cross -chain protocol. And I really actually appreciate that a lot of these organizations, at least now with regards to their intent ethos and how it's currently programmed, are taking such a stance. Luke And while that may change in the future, none of them are saying, or at least I have yet to hear any of them say, we're considering adding that for stronger user safety and customer protections. I've not heard a single one say that, but most of them do seem to be, even if they themselves are centralized, working on the decentralized ethos, which I appreciate. Doug Wow. Very cool, man. Very cool. Seth, you want to jump in here? What's been your experience? Seth Yeah, no, I mean, so last year, you've done first kind of similar thing where I put together a panel with just some other privacy advocates from this ecosystem, right? And a couple of others. Wait, did that include Josh Whitehart? Luke Yes, I heard about that. Seth Okay, it was a lot of fun and I wanted to record more. We had a failure in the podcast area last year. Oh, sure. So, yeah, it stopped recording. One of my guests that I didn't know until I forgot home, it was tragic, honestly. Seth But no, trying to figure out how we're adding privacy measures to the Cosmos hub ecosystem, there's a lot of people in the so -called IBC, right, that primitive of having atomic swaps in that smart contract ecosystem. Seth They call it an L0 or whatever, but there aren't strong privacy guarantees, right? There aren't really strong anonymity sets across any of their app -specific chains or anything. Well, Secret Network, they fancy themselves sort of the leaders in that space. Seth So, I've been reaching out to them, interviewing their past leadership, their current leadership, at least allowed, and then a few others. And asking some of these similar questions, like, okay, decentralization, if you're genuinely pursuing decentralization as part of your approach to privacy, then you must be figuring out how to use cross -chain protocols so that you have shared security across other networks that will reinforce whatever privacy or at least call it confidential computing and their ecosystem, whatever it is you're putting in place to help protect either user data privacy or just make your on -chain whatever, all of your transfers and remittances, make sure everything has greater anonymity somehow. Seth What are you doing to make sure that's improved? This was the central question to EVM -based chains and EVM -based solutions for privacy, as well as this other ecosystem that's kind of found a little bit of a home here, in East Denver. Seth And what I'm hearing is there's, this year as well, there's kind of ideologically, people want more privacy, they want to see that more is being implemented. The average retail participant is not sophisticated enough to be able to judge these different technologies and in some cases they've po -mo -ed into crypto in one ecosystem or another and then discovered too late that they want to add privacy somehow to their holdings. Seth And so what they're looking for is forward privacy, right after they've already gotten invested. And I'm trying to figure out how do I add this and that's been my question too. And I love that what you're hearing is that there's a greater commitment to the idea of privacy. Seth But decentralization on my end. Sure, yeah. And I think that's key to it. Is that if it's not permissionless, then as you said before, and you can't force transaction, it's not censorship resistant, then what are we even saying, trying to reinforce privacy if the record itself is selectively recorded? Luke Mind if I hop in with a more technical view on the privacy solutions here? Seth by all means please. I work the social layer here to hopefully try to cross -pollinate different ecosystems, but yeah. Luke So one of the events I attended was hosted by a group called Phoenix, F -H -E -N -I -X, Encryption Day, and it was really great to go to. And it covered fully homophic encryption. Fully homophic encryption is where, Doug, you can encrypt a value, you know, you can encrypt some number, and then I can encrypt a number on my end, and we can run any program we want on those two numbers. Luke We can add them, we can multiply them, we can do comparisons of them, we can divide them. It doesn't matter. No matter what we want to do, fully homophic encryption enables it. So when we look at smart contracts, arbitrary programs on chain, you effectively need fully homophic encryption to realize that. Luke And fully homophic encryption has had, in my opinion, a notable amount of projects here representing it. How many projects is that? I have counted two. But the reason that's so notable is because fully homophic encryption is such a tall order. Luke I mean, I started researching the history of it a few weeks ago, completely unrelated to F -Demfer. I was curious about it for other reasons, which I'll try to avoid getting into. I'm just very excited. Doug if it has anything to do with Monero for sure don't avoid. Luke No, I would just talk about it for an hour and then it's, you know, Luke's opinions on why FHE is cool and not what's going on here. Seth I mean FHE is cool though. I agree at least conceptually I could probably listen to it for an hour Luke Right. So it's about it would effectively allow anyone to take a smart contract and just completely encrypt it. Like what you can do is you can have a decentralized loan platform where someone can deposit Monero or whatever is the token on the chain and they can borrow USDCE or some other stable against it. Doug Just interrupt for a second. Isn't this what darkfie is essentially working on? Or that's just a different implementation of it? Various different discussions there. Luke Let's go with no and move on for time sake. But the issue is if now someone knows I have a loan for Monero for whatever other coin, they can spike the price of it to force a liquidation on me. So the reason FHE is so notable in this case is that the loan can be kept completely private until it's unhealthy. Luke It can be kept completely private and every hour someone can run a bot. And that bot can say calculate if it's unhealthy. And then the validators who are trusted with running the encryption scheme, they just decrypt not the loan itself, but if it's unhealthy. Luke And if it's unhealthy, then they publicize the loan so anyone can liquidate it. So basically the entire lending platform is allowed its full operation, but you don't have to worry if you have a large financial position of that knowledge being public and used to attack you. Luke So FHE is really great primitive. It is also extremely slow and almost unusable, which is why I'm so happy to see two projects doing it because I would have expected everyone talking about it as a pipe. Luke There are actually two projects here actually discussing it. Unfortunately, I have not seen anyone doing ZK Snarks. I have legitimately not seen any private transfer technology. I have only seen Snarks. Luke The distinction being, and yes, a lot of Snarks are internally ZK Snarks and ZK Snarks are a subset of Snarks. You can use a ZK Snark as a Snark. The difference being is a lot of people want to use a Snark to say, here's my entire Ethereum blockchain. Luke This Snark proves it's correct. You now don't have to execute it because here's a ZK proof that my 100 gigabytes of data is correct. My ZK proof is just a few hundred bytes. It's very efficient. It's very small. Luke It removes having to verify the entire chain. So I see a lot of projects here interested in that, but almost no one is interested in the zero knowledge point of it. I'm just surprised to see that. I haven't seen for the IBC because I believe it's Nomada that's doing shielded pools. Luke I haven't seen a booth here for them. I know Polygon, I believe they have a private transfer layer. Technically Polygon is here, but their focus isn't on their private transfers. Their focus is on their ZK EVM, which is really, here's a public EVM that we use as ZK proof to efficiently prove on Ethereum, so on and so on. Luke So I don't believe I've actually seen any projects doing privacy except for the two FAT booths, which is honestly a very experimental technology. Not to discredit it, to note, I don't actually think there is a lot of notable privacy here. Luke I think there's a lot of people doing revolutionary technology for what I expected, but even that group is just two people. The one exception is there is a secret booth. So that would bring us up to three projects, private computation or private transfers or private user data. Luke The issue is secret is to my understanding, their tokens have been completely de -anonymized and you can fully view the sender and receiver graph. And while I believe amounts are bounded with how much you can review, their test net was fully decrypted in a demonstration of a side channel attack several months ago because they don't actually use cryptography to achieve their privacy. Luke They just use a special section of the CPU. So between the numerous times that special section has had its data leaked and between the fact that the database is in private and the implication of that is if I send tokens, it removes five from my account. Luke My account has a spot in the database. So now the next time I send coins, it's going to affect the same spot in the database. So you know whenever this spot in the database is touched, that means Luke is sending coins. Luke So between that, I'm not ready to call it a private blockchain. Seth Right. And for my part, having, you know, built some inroads into this community, I've seen that narrative shift, right? From it being something that's that is remotely privacy oriented, then now calling it confidential computing. Seth So it's meant to be part of a stack, really, is how they're billing it. Luke confidential is it if the data keeps getting leaked? Seth And then how confidential could it ever be if you're relying entirely on hardware security modules, right? So you have problems there and to keep the receipts on this specifically the Intel SGX, right? Seth Like hack, right? And problem. So yeah tying any of your confidentiality or your privacy to a hardware security module It's not if but when it's a cat and mouse game. It's not gonna be secure forever. Luke shifting the narrative from private to confidential if it's not. Seth Because you can change a narrative much faster than you can change code. But it's also not confidential. Sir Jamz To give them a little credit, I spoke with one of the team members and they were interested in rebuilding a new narrow bridge to see your network Seth And this cross -pollination is where I think the broader ecosystem wins. Because, I mean, they've already seen the proof of concept, right? With being able to see active pools, liquidity pools across Bitcoin and Monero, and seeing, all right, people are willing to put their money through this system. Seth And again, like this is where you have like, it's a kind of whatever, development retardation that VCs use, right? Where it's like, oh, I gotta see somebody put money into this ecosystem first, or it's not real. Seth And so I think now we're at this point where, yeah, IBC, some EVM -based projects, some that have been running ZK, SNARK relayers that were mentioned earlier. They just don't have a huge presence here, they're giving out swag. Seth Some of these other projects I think are seeing like, okay, there might be a way that we can allow for the conditional privacy of our ecosystem to be the sort of rogue, dangerous freedom of Monero. I think they're coming around. Seth I think they actually are. I think it took a long time, but I think they're actually coming around. Doug I mentioned, I'm getting that echo again. Hold on. Hold on. Oh, sorry, I was going to say something. I think that was it. Okay. I mentioned, uh, ETH to Monero Atomic Swaps, uh, bring it up again. Is that being discussed at all? Doug I mean, that exists as a technology. I think I saw that in that. Elizabeth Ethereum, you know, uh, I saw some code of that up. Is, is, are we seeing adoption? Are we seeing people showing any interest in that? Sir Jamz She might be here. I'll double check, but I have memory of seeing an ETH XMR atomic swap project of some sort Luke Do you mean Elizabeth? Yeah, Elizabeth. I'm I'm not 100% sure, but I'm 99% sure Elizabeth is not here. She told me her name was Alex. Seth What does that mean? She asked me if my name was Bob. Doug But yeah, why isn't that being discussed more if that tech already exists? What why aren't we seeing discussions about that? Have you guys looked into it all? Seth mindset. They want it. It needs to be sexy. You have to sell them the sizzle. You have to tell them that like, this is going to be amazing and you're going to 10x your investment in this unrealistic kind of dream. Seth Unfortunately, I think in some cases when it comes to development anyway, there are a few models. And yeah, Cashflow is king in the long run for any business or any protocol. You want to see a lot of volume, of course, and have it prove itself that way. Seth But at a show like this, where so many venture capitalists have funded, frankly, the majority of what we see here, they want to see the business use case first. And unfortunately for some of them, privacy as a narrative is an aftermath. Seth They can't touch it. It just goes against what they find investable. But that's not always true. Secret clearly is not dead yet. And they're still able to keep investor confidence and interest in their ecosystem. Seth But it's not true privacy either. Luke So largely agree, especially that's why I wanted to say the only two actual privacy projects I've seen here are based on experimental technology because experimental technology is sexy to VCs. So that's one of the notes I was trying to make. Luke I wasn't trying to say they're rushing it or you're responsible. I'm trying to say if the only privacy we see is the one that's brand new and sexy, the comments on do they actually, to be clear, I believe those teams like privacy, but does the ecosystem like privacy or do they just like new things? Sir Jamz So what's your opinion on implementing that, like FHE into Monero? Luke Can I answer that in a moment? Oh, yeah. So immediately, I just wanted to note specifically for Ethereum, Monero, Atomic Swaps, there aren't users here. There are companies. There are, sure, there are plenty of venture capitalists walking around, but that doesn't change that people here are developers for companies, they're business development at companies, or they're people who are, have enough capital that they could form a company and invest in other companies. Luke That is the audience here. So while users may be interested in Ethereum, Monero, Atomic Swaps, if I go up to these people, it is not their company, so they don't care. And then for users, I personally think Atomic Swaps have, unfortunately, as much as I hate to say it, I've come around to the belief they have a sufficiently subpar UX that other solutions are needed. Luke Hence my own work on Surai, a decentralized exchange. To answer your question about Monero and fully homomorphic encryption, why do you hate me and want me to answer this question? I was having a nice... Seth day as they give me give me quick section to interrupt it they're asking me to put this this thing back on oh Didn't like how I do face their podcast students Doug Huh. Seth They're facing in reverse. Doug It's okay. Luke Sorry, there's a stomp on the audio track. All jokes aside, so fully homomorphic encryption, I don't believe has the performance to be implemented into Monero, even if it linearly scaled. If you don't have linear scaling, the system collapses after a certain point. Luke If you try to get a million people, and it has a quadratic scaling, which means that it's n, n is your number, to the power of 2, that would be a million times a million, which would be ridiculous. But technically, if you have a linear system where it's just n, yeah, you can have 100 ,000 people, or you can have a million people. Luke It's only 10 times more expensive. So you want linear when you're discussing these large systems. Even if fully homomorphic encryption schemes had linear scaling and the linear operation was fast enough, it wasn't an issue. Luke Because even the basic operations in UC are still notably expensive. That doesn't change the fact that it's encryption. The ability to encrypt means that there's the ability to decrypt. There's the ability to decrypt. Luke There's a party that can decrypt. When we're discussing shared state, you have, let's say you're on Ethereum, there's a decentralized exchange, and you have a list of orders on the exchange. That is shared state. Luke Anyone can place an order. Anyone can take an order. Shared state is implemented by the validators of the network having the encryption key. You encrypt your order to them. They do all of the mathematical operations. Luke And when the time comes, the validators decrypt it. Or if they're malicious, they decrypt it in advance. Accordingly, I am fundamentally against using any such encryption technology in Monero because there should not be the ability for anyone to decrypt and we should not have, oh, these are the 100 validators the system is using. Luke I don't believe that's in the ethos of Monero and we shouldn't have that. Now, I've had several debates over this recently and I wish I could say I've had none. But regardless, a few members of the Dero community have come into my Discord, brought it up, and made claims about their project, which I have found either incorrect or using very custom definitions, which are not standard in the academic society nor in the ecosystem that we live in. Luke Regardless, without any disparaging of Dero's technology without any judgment on it as a protocol, they do use partially homomorphic encryption. Fully homomorphic encryption means you can do anything. Luke Partially homomorphic encryption means you can do a limited amount of things. In the case of Dero, they use it to implement an account system where you can send and receive coins. With Dero, they don't have a shared state. Luke They don't have everyone managing encrypted orders on a decentralized exchange. Accordingly, while there are such amounts, they only involves a single user account and the user holds the encryption key. Luke So they avoid the whole validators and so on. I don't believe Monero needs to adopt partially homomorphic encryption where the users have all of the keys, because I don't think that's practically better than what Monero does today. Luke Monero today doesn't use partially homomorphic encryption, yet still as private value transfer. The one concern is the ring signatures, but homomorphic encryption of any form doesn't solve the ring signature problem, as ZK Snark would. Luke Moving to homomorphic encryption, what enable an account system, but that would have various discussions on the privacy and security, which I don't think is a discussion worthwhile because the results in my opinion are disappointing. Luke If we were to adopt a fully homomorphic encryption system, it would be to support smart contracts or similar, but again, as I said, it would require we designate validators who would be trusted to maintain the privacy of the system. Luke And I don't believe Monero should move in that direction. Seth And then can I ask really fast, what do you think of Tari as a sort of a de facto test net to test out some of these potential directions for smart contracts, enabling smart contracts in a similar paradigm? Luke I don't think Tari, if you want to consider it as a test net or even as just a place to look, I don't think it's notable. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Tari isn't notable, I'm not saying they don't have good technology. Luke You're just a wild narrow Maxi Luke saying, you're just a wild narrow Maxi. There's no reason to look at Tari specifically and Tari alone when you can look at the entire ecosystem and what everyone does. Luke If you want to see how projects play out, we shouldn't only look at projects with relation to an era, we should look at all projects in the ecosystem to see practically what occurs. Ideally Tari will be another data point. Luke From my understanding, they're not doing private smart contracts and am I wrong or not the smart contracts public? It's that they use Memble Wimble for value privacy? Seth Yeah, I remember Wimbledon. Is it? Yeah, is the primary mechanism? But yeah, it was. Luke amount privacy in some debates on scaling and like client offerings. But I don't believe they're doing private smart contracts. I believe they're doing public smart contracts. Seth Oh man, I just red pulled myself at bringing them up. I got him. I got him wrong. I have to double check their... Luke All it might have some limited amount of privacy, but from my understanding, their private smart contracts have public code and public execution. I've not heard anything about execution being private or the code executed being private. Luke So they could have it and I'm just truly unaware, but I haven't heard that. So because of the difficulty of it, I assume they don't have it. Seth Yeah, without disparaging, I hope they move that direction. Cool. Yeah, about every smart contract. About Darkfy. Doug Can I ask about Darkfy? Where does that fit in in comparison to these other concepts? Luke So Darkfy, to my understanding, is using ZK Snarks, but is... I don't remember if they initially were going to. I don't think they were ever going to. I think they're now exploring it, but I don't think we'll be there at launch. Luke But to be honest, I'm not entirely up to date. To my understanding, they are not introducing MPC as necessary for shared state, but they're solely doing ZK Snarks. And that could be wrong about that, truly. Luke I could be wrong about that. But my understanding is at this time, the product they're looking at deploying, at least initially, product, project, network, whatever you want to call it, is solely premised on ZK Snarks. Luke So that means that anyone will be able to create a program, and anyone will be able to privately prove the program executed correctly without revealing what the inputs were, and not necessarily revealing some of the outputs. Luke So that enables a variety of different structures. It's a much more flexible system than the traditional value transfer. And even without shared state, there is a lot you can do. Like, technically, you can do a decentralized exchange without shared state. Luke It's just a lot cludgier, a lot more annoying, has a higher transaction failure rate. So I'm not entirely sure, but I believe they're just doing ZK Snarks, which doesn't inherently have nice, pleasant support for shared state, which is frequent in smart contracts. Doug Awesome. So since we're on this topic of talking about all these different privacy coin projects, what Seth and Luke and I guess Sir James, you can give me your opinion as well. What which projects are you most interested? Doug Obviously other than Monero, what are some other like your top, top project that interests you other than Monero with regards to privacy tech in crypto? Seth Wow, so we're going, we're breaking outside of just ETH Denver and the people who paid to show up here and promote privacy, right? Just top picks in general. Doug Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I feel like we've gone off off the ranch a little bit with regards to talking about privacy tech. Sure, yeah. So yeah, let's Seth Yeah, I'm not I'm not very I'm not very coy about this I I like to give props to the team over at rail gun the railway wallet is it was a necessary Component to the ecosystem when the tornado cash out of commission There were a couple of projects I won't mention the networks that they're on but a couple projects that have worked tornado cash Smart contracts and redeployed them as a very very gutsy move because it's like dude You're playing with fire, right? Seth Like yeah That those smart contracts on a list it's not gonna be hard for them to get like An additional writ to put yours on a list I think so I wouldn't do that But there are some projects that have because they wanted so desperately to restore what was lost with the tornado cash being sanctioned So so that's something that's kind of a radar and then of course the samurai Samurai wallet and whirlpool devs have been doing great work. Seth I think or yeah, or the bitcoin maximalist community and as you know, they've shown incredible friendliness towards the minero research labs and Rotterman arrow community because they get it. They they actually want privacy to be the like the primary goal Not maximalism. Seth So so I love I love shouting them out and giving them praise because they just I think they're doing it right person Awesome. Look at that Sir Jamz I can double up on Samurai Wallet too, because I run that software, Ronin Dojo Node. I love this stack. The UI, everything about it is so easy to use. It brings, if we can take some notes for Monero Nodo, but it's just been, yeah. Sir Jamz And besides that, also, I always end up mentioning graphene whenever I'm talking to people about privacy. I just think if we can individually start to restrict the amount of profitable data that we're leaking, because it's governments and big tech companies, we can maybe pull back some of the power. Sir Jamz That's gonna be really useful. So I always give, and I'm talking to people about Monero, like slide them through graphene a little bit and tell them why. Seth I'm kind of curious this might this might be the only de -google panel that also doesn't have an iPhone maybe potentially I think I got graphene here. I know you were running graphene. Oh, wow. All right. Seth There you go This this might be a first for an e -thenver. I don't know maybe no Doug That is the privacy panel. Look at the WU projects that most interest you in in crypto That we got you know with regards to privacy real quick. I just wanna know Luke Stop by apologizing to Turi and or Darkfy if I have in fact misrepresented your privacy technology Absolutely, me too. Just to my understanding that was it. I could be wrong. Feel free to shout at me if I'm wrong But with regards to privacy technology This one person around her is going talking around like keeps going around just talking about this thing called Sarai I don't know if you've heard of it One guy keeps going around no one fucking knows about it, and they're just like hey guys you heard about this thing I'm working. Luke I don't know. They're a bit annoying. I think Sir Jamz I actually heard about that. I'm trying to get that guy to come to the meetup on Sunday. Yeah. Well, if they have the time, they should jump off. Luke Bye. Seth So it sounds like we're trying to get this person to show up by providing a zero -knowledge proof and not ever discussing what, okay. You wanted an illustration of what a ZK proof is socially? That's what it is. Luke Beyond that, to be completely honest, the work that's being done with Phoenix, I have very mixed opinions on because it's just, it's not a private transfer layer. Phoenix is we have the Ethereum virtual machine, which is just the Ethereum network, and some of our contracts introduce some amount of privacy. Luke So it's not Monero, it's not Zcash, it's not Darrow, it's not WowNarrow, it's not anything like that. But in practice with how widespread the EVM has come, I'm not saying there aren't alternative execution environments. Luke I'm looking at a booth for Solana, which is a very major project, which has demonstrated, you know, their VM. It's around and they went down to $9 and they ran it back the entire way. They've shown that they're more than just FTX. Luke So I'm not here to say that the EVM is the only environment that matters, but the EVM is the de facto environment in programming blockchains at this point. And with that is a variety of tooling, a variety of ecosystem support and a variety of exchange integrations. Luke So I'm forced to acknowledge that Phoenix, because it's the EVM, if it has any layer of privacy natively integrated, even if it's partial, even if it's only used in some smart contracts, it will probably be most, if it succeeds, most of the people here will probably first experience privacy on a blockchain network, thanks to it. Luke Not because they'll have fully private amounts, but because yes, some of their developers will have private orders, private loans, they're going to build tokens, which might be private by default, etc. Luke and etc. And that is going to be because of that. So even if I wish we could all be from this ground zero private, every single transfer, every single instruction, even if I wish we could have that environment, Phoenix may be the best bet at making privacy mainstream, even if it is unfortunately limited to only part of the network. Doug Very good, very good. Sir Jamz How about you Doug? What are you interested in? Doug Obviously Minera Zano has piqued my interest recently I've been you know keeping an eye on them Seth I've got a story for you on that one, Doug, in a minute when the back is on it. Luke Thank you. Seth jet Luke Yeah, they're okay involved with it to some degree. Yeah, no, Rod Hever, I know, yeah, he's a part of that. Doug I was communicating with him when we did Minerotopia last year. Seth Sure, and I understand that he's very interested in tari now also some of the rest of Doug I don't know. I don't know he's into Tari as well. OK. Yes. Yes. Seth Well, I don't like go go like whatever tattle on his on his bags Luke done like a podcast episode or some, you know, like 30 minute chat voice call that was published on YouTube with the XANA people. Seth Nice. That's by the public. Yeah, that's amazing. And so, and Andre, so I was the first person to publicly interview him on video. It was years ago. But I mean, Doug knows. It's, yeah, it's an amazing, like, amazingly small world as far as dev talent from that early phase, right? Seth Like, and a lot of, a lot of maybe questions will never get answered there from back in the bite point days. And so I'm just going to stop asking, like, less relevant. What we have existing today in the, what's in production right now from an arrow makes any of that other pain probably worth it. Seth So stop asking. Doug So just kind of taking a step back to what we were talking about earlier, smart contracts and then things we may see in Monero in the future. Luke, do you ever think we see some kind of form of smart contracts on Monero in some way? Doug And what would that look like? Luke Hey Doug, do you have a GitHub account? Sir Jamz Dot -de -de- nella Doug our count checks. But give us your explanation. Do you have a GitHub account? I do. I do. I don't use it, but I do. Luke Okay, great. You have a good up account proud of you. So I know you're not a developer And you also don't need a github account to view issues on github So like it's kind of a completely irrelevant question, but Doug you passed you did great. Luke I'm proud of you, okay? But if you actually go on the Monero project github not the Monero github the Monero Repository is under the Monero project on github if you want the Monero project github you can view the research lab the research lab is this repository with research All right, most of the research or exploratory topics is under the issues If you click on that issue, I created an issue to add programmability to Monero and the initial idea was bad But if you scroll down to the bottom I linked a full protocol Specification that add private execution to Monero And I can brag about it and go over it a bit if you want but like if you want to talk about how to bring smart contracts from Monero I have written a specification on it. Luke Oh, okay I'm not surprised Doug I'm not surprised. Talk about it a little bit. Sir Jamz over it with right now. Luke I don't support it. Like I wrote the entire specification, I don't support it. It's not good, it's not, it's complicated. So basically the main concern with adding programmability is that the execution of the programs wanna be private. Luke Monero right now could be forked to include the Ethereum virtual machine and if it includes the Ethereum virtual machine, all the development of Ethereum could migrate. And you can say that's great for adoption, but that doesn't change that Ethereum is in private and we'd just be introducing all of that lack of privacy into Monero. Luke For programmability to be added to Monero, it has to fundamentally be private. So when I initially opened the issue, I proposed effectively a dark -file situation. Anyone could publish a arithmetic circuit. Luke An arithmetic circuit is a series of mathematical operations and requirements that you can then prove inside a ZK snark or any similar type of proof. And that's what I created the issue for. I just said, let people specify arbitrary mathematical rules that can do anything. Luke You can verify a signature, it can evaluate binary gates and validate that you booted up Linux. Yeah, I don't know or care. Anything. But the issue with it is that, let's say someone introduced a hash time -locked contract, which is the building block for atomic swaps in a lot of cases. Luke If someone wrote a program for a hash time -locked contract, it wouldn't declare itself high on an atomic swap, but it would be a series of mathematical numbers. And if you looked into it, you would see exactly what those mathematical numbers are. Luke And if you knew, oh, hey, these are the exact same mathematical numbers as this public atomic swap program, you would immediately be able to tell that that program is an atomic swap and so on and so on. Luke So it would notably reduce privacy to just allow publishing arbitrary mathematical programs, and call it a day. So the next evolution of the proposal, which is the specification I posted, it achieves privacy of the program. Luke No one can see what program is being executed. And there's minimal differentiation depending on the program. The only thing that's revealed is the amount of inputs and outputs. So it could be an entire zero -knowledge EVM. Luke You know, it could be proving, hey, this is a layer two. This is an entire Ethereum blockchain that's doing whatever. And then just like people are trying to put the EVM on Bitcoin right now with the security of Bitcoin, it would have the security of Manero. Luke Or it could literally just be a transfer. You cannot tell the difference. It achieves privacy of execution. So you don't know the program being executed and you don't know what the execution is doing. Luke You don't know the inputs, you don't know the outputs. You don't know what pieces the program are running. Yeah, that's really it. Privacy of the program and privacy of the execution. Which to my understanding would actually be stronger privacy than darkfide. Luke To my understanding, darkfide does reveal the program being executed. They just don't reveal how it's executed. But they do reveal the program which was executed. This would not even reveal the program being executed. Luke So this could be done theoretically. It could be done today, completely trustless. Wow. The bad news is that it would probably be one to 10 ,000 times more expensive to do any single transfer. Like computationally, it would take, if we can do 10 ,000 transactions a day, now we can do one. Luke We can do one transaction a day. Because in order to do it in a trustless fashion, to get very mathematical here, very mathematical. If you have a program that's this big, if it's a program this big, and you have a ZK snark, ZK snark means that the proof for it is smaller than the program. Luke So if you have a program this big, then the proof is gonna be this big. So the premise is we have a program this big, and it itself verifies a larger ZK snark. So this is the program, and it verifies the proof of a program even bigger. Luke So we have to find this minimum threshold. We need to find this minimum threshold, which is a snark that can verify a bigger snark. Because once you can verify any bigger program, well, that bigger program can verify a bigger program and that bigger program can do a bigger one. Luke So you do get an infinite program space, but you just shrink it down. When you shrink it down more, you shrink it down more to this minimum bound, this minimum bound that lets you run a slightly bigger program that can do slightly bigger, so on and so on. Luke The issue is every single transaction has to be this minimum bound. And this minimum bound will be tens of thousands of lines of mathematical code at best. The membership proof that I am trying to bring to Monera to replace ring, ring signatures and offer full center privacy. Luke It is going to be a few hundred lines of this mathematical code. But what we're discussing here would be tens of thousands of lines. So it legitimately would be a hundred to a thousand times more expensive to run. Luke And this would be for every single transaction, every single transaction become a thousand times more expensive. So it's also clutchy. Like, yes, you get for full programmability, but you don't have shared state because it's not proposing using fully homomorphic encryption. Luke So you don't get shared state. So you do get programmability, but there's limitations on it in practice. And it kind of just shifts a lot of the burden to layer two. So now we have to get entire teams building layer twos, which is its own mess. Luke And it would be a lot of time to develop, audit, properly integrate. So now we're talking, you know, two to three years of development. If we actually want to be secure about it and fully confident in its security. Luke And we're already trying to do seraphis. So like we don't want to do seraphis and then immediately throw all of that out for this new protocol. So it's not that we can't do it. It's not that we couldn't have the privacy minarets strife to offer. Luke It's not that it can't be done in a trustless faction. It's that the end result while private is clutchy. It's hard to use. It's annoying. It requires a lot of developer knowledge, a lot of developer time. Luke You wouldn't make every transaction thousands of times more expensive, probably. Seth So to your point, in all fairness, it seems like most smart contracting systems and ecosystems are quite cludgy. I mean, a lot of these standards that are coming out in EVM are, I mean, I mean, ERC -404 is the big narrative at the show this year, for example. Seth It's not even, even in past as a finalized standard yet, it's still technically experimental. Luke they announced it with the standard label, despite the fact it was not actually even acknowledged as a potential standard. Exactly. They're just like, hey, there's this standards process. We don't care. Luke We're going to give ourselves the name. It's about. Seth But and this is the norm. This is the norm because I mean, because of new functions that are being requested by retail in smart contracts. Luke They're not trying to add it to the virtual machine themselves though. They're solely offering an application standard that you build on top of the virtual machine. And it's because the virtual machine is so expressive that applications can do whatever they want. Luke They can define tokens. They can define token standards. The issue with this is the VM proposed. Yes, it can run arbitrary programs. It doesn't have shared state. So the moment two people reach for the same piece of data, it is going to air the hell out. Luke It just cannot handle multiple people reaching for the same piece of data at the same time. So like you're saying the EVM has all of this application discourse. And what I'm saying is this VM fundamentally wouldn't enable large classes of applications despite being programmable. Luke The best you get is full programmability, but with extremely high contention, which means your transaction only goes through if no one else is trying to make a similar transaction. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there are teams that have worked on the contention issue and designed programs to minimize contention. Luke I don't want to disregard that work or say it's completely impossible. I'm just saying like the discussion for this fully private VM within Mineros Ethos, it's not that it's impossible. It's just very expensive. Luke A lot of work. Even if we trust in the security, there would still be new assumptions made, which could be questioned, argued, debated. And it just, it makes Minero worse as a currency in my opinion. Seth That makes sense. I mean as a currency that does make sense. There's so many so many crypto networks that That were never conceived of as anything more than a currency and it sounds like I don't mean to be like trite or labor Whatever it does a damn good job of being currency right, but but yet as far as having it do anything outside of that scope Smart contracting it seems like yeah, even in that area You're saying you're talking about having applications address certain amount of space and having that be part of the clues that you were dispensing Luke Like generally it's like if you want to make a send you might be waiting a couple of minutes for your phone to do all the zero Knowledge first. Yeah Seth That was the biggest, I mean frankly, this has been a cascading pile of shit, sorry, the expression, but with a lot of the Zcash forks, especially post -Sappling, they talked about speeding up the proof times and everything, but there were no usable mobile clients that allowed for shielded transactions on either Zcash or any derivative networks, any fork networks because of how computationally expensive it was to try to initiate that from just consumer phones. Seth It was really, really difficult. So, I mean, I totally see what you're saying right now, but the problem that that's rather the trend that that's created in EVM privacy solutions is that now we have these relayer networks, like regenerating proofs in a more trusted way, which is also not great. Luke Well, for my understanding, relay our networks are about the gas fee, not about the proving might have relay our network shifted. Seth No, no, so maybe maybe I've misspoke so hopefully you can help me set me straight here So and that that's my understanding is that there's shared infrastructure and that the relayer networks are absolutely essential in order to get these CK solutions Right, yeah, but the reason there are Luke essential is because if you have coins in a contract on Ethereum, you need to pay Ethereum to execute the contract, verify the zero knowledge proof and transfer the Ether, transfer the USD stablecoin, so on and so on. Luke With Ethereum, you can't post pay the fee. You can't say, oh, this, this proof verifies this contract and will send one Ether to pay for the transaction. Nope, Ethereum requires the fee be paid upfront. Luke Right. So the relayer doesn't handle any zero knowledge proofs and doesn't strip away privacy. They front the fee and then the contract doesn't pay the network for the fee. The contract pays the relayer who paid the fee. Seth I thought I actually thought that there was a little bit more by way of a decentralization of the proving of those of those snarks so Luke That's not how I've known relay networks, but it could be out of touch without some projects or dealing. Seth and hey I admit ignorance to this because I'm not a full -time developer. I also have multiple GitHub accounts for... Yes. Doug Have a good hub. Yeah Luke This is actually one of the really interesting things about this ZK contract scheme I was proposing. Technically, it verifies any program to determine if the output can be spent or not. Accordingly, the program it can verify can literally just be, is this a Bitcoin signature? Luke Like literally, is this a Bitcoin signature? Not, is this an ECDSA signature, the signature standard that Bitcoin uses? Nope, does this output thinks it's being spent in a Bitcoin transaction and it's using the exact Bitcoin transaction serialization? Luke And the reason for that isn't because we want Bitcoin signatures. No, that's stupid. The reason for that would be cool. Now literally every single Bitcoin wallet that can export a signature can technically make a Monero transaction because you just take the signature at exports and you just say, yep, this Monero ZK program just requires a Bitcoin signature exactly formatted as a Bitcoin transaction. Luke Yep, this signature is valid. Therefore, yep, no, this is all valid. Let's spend it. Now, whatever exports that Bitcoin signature, yes, someone else would do the zero knowledge proof and fully take the privacy responsibility of it. Luke But with regards to how you authorize the value transfer, how you authorize the output that's being spent, the coins to be moved, so on and so on. It could literally be a Bitcoin signature. It could be an ECDSA signature, which is used in Bitcoin. Luke It could be used in EDDSA signature because that's much nicer than a standard. It could be you do the proof yourself and you don't use the signature. You're just like, yep, there's a zero knowledge proof. Luke I know a variable. There's no signature. It's literally I am typing in the number into this proof because you don't need a signature. You have a zero knowledge proof that works as a signature. So because you get full customized ability, you actually can tailor it. Luke You can say, oh, this hardware security module only supports P256 because that's what's used by Apple. Apple uses P256. No one in crypto uses P256. But you can say, oh, yeah, no, I'm going to say that this output is spendable with the P256 signature. Luke I'm going to have my iPhone generate the P256 signature. And then I'm going to have some company generate the zero knowledge proof so I don't have to bother. Sure, the company will learn all the info, but now you're transferring Monero using your iPhone. Luke Like this is the great thing if you can have every output be a program. But to my understanding, the current relay or solutions aren't offloading the proofs. They're just handling the gas fees because Ethereum doesn't let you post pay the gas. Seth I don't know. Okay. Yeah, and that's just it. This is why I want to I love having animals across these different solutions And I know Doug does too. He does great work in terms of bringing that ecumenical approach right from other builders But yeah, I'm admitting ignorance here I thought that there there was a little more of the infrastructure that was required for for generating and validating the proofs Luke So as another example, because truly I don't know any projects which do that, so I can't comment on them. Sure, yeah. But as another example, what Ccash does is they do the entire ZK proof, but then they output a public key. Luke This public key is your public key plus some value, which is no. So once they output that public key, you just have to make a standard signature with it. You just make a normal signature. So with Ccash, you can have your hardware wallet make a very simple signature. Luke And then your laptop makes the entire ZK proof. Your laptop makes the entire ZK proof, and it's like, hey, I just need the signature. Hardware wallet signs up. Therefore, your hardware wallet, this very small device with very limited resources, does not have to do the entire zero -knowledge proof. Luke So yes, while no one's done this with Ccash, as far as I know, Zcash signing can be reduced to a simple signature, and you can outsource that proof. In that exact same way, even without full programmability, there could be a zero -knowledge project on Ethereum, which does just take a signature and a zero -knowledge proof. Luke And yeah, they could allow users to just publish the signature and let someone else do the zero -knowledge proof. I just don't know if any of that do that, especially because it completely removes the privacy. Luke Like generally, you want your hardware wallet to do the signature and your laptop to do the proof, not your laptop to do the signature and a company to do the proof. Seth No, no, no, exactly. Yeah, it seems like that is a problem with the chain of custody, right? Luke It seems like a bad trade -off. Yeah, and I don't know of anyone doing that. From my understanding, relayers are just used to pay the gas fee up front and get paid on the back end. Doug Luke, let me ask you, since we have you, can you give us an update on full membership proofs? Oh! Luke Yeah, I think Berman either recently posted an update or is about to post an update. They shimmed a lot of the code. I'm not here to say that they fully implemented it at all. They shimmed a lot of the code, but they did get full -chain membership proofs. Luke They did. Again, it's shimmed. So with the amount of code they shimmed, you can argue they didn't actually do anything. No, they did get it within Monera. So they worked on taking myRest code, actually linking it into the Monera code, generating proofs. Luke They were shimmed, but generating proofs, putting those into transactions, and then also verifying the transactions with those proofs. So I'm not sure if they've quite published. They may be finishing up the work there, but they've actually made significant effort on demonstrating what an integration would look like. Luke From there, the next step would be to move to a curve cycle with Serifis, which is its own very complicated discussion. But it's that and continue working on the membership proof and code. Continue shrinking the size and getting it smaller and smaller, faster and faster. Luke And going on from there. Doug I know you probably hate this question, but what do you see as being a potential timeline for when full membership proofs gets fully activated into Monero? Luke This is my personal opinion. I have only shared it with a couple other people. I have not talked about it with any, I've not talked about it with Co. I've not talked about it with the Monero community at large. Luke I've not talked with it with our Bruner. So you can completely say this is just Luke being hopeful, but also an idiot, and you're welcome to have that opinion. With the rate things are progressing from my personal perspective, I would not be surprised if there's a significant argument to deploy Seraphis with full -chain membership groups. Doug beautiful. All right. Hip hip hooray. There you go world. World star right here at East Denver. That's what I get out of it. Seth You get the confetti going. Doug Luke, let me ask you this. So we're talking about the potential for smart contracts on Monero, right? And just whether or not that would make sense given the costs involved. Once full membership proofs is implemented into Monero, what do you see as the next big evolution that needs to happen in Monero? Luke Like I can just immediately answer that. Nova. Right now, all of our range proofs and the membership, if we go with full chain membership proofs, they're going to be premised on bullet proofs. And our range proofs aren't going to be bullet proofs. Luke Right now, they're bullet proofs plus and we're reviewing bullet proofs plus plus. So just like better versions of bullet proofs, although internally they are distinct. So because they're distinct internally, they are different proofs. Luke It's not just like, oh, we figured out how to make the existing proof 10% faster. Nope, it's a new proof. So Microsoft research in 2019, 2021, see they're 2019 or 2021. I always forget they publish Spartan. Luke So bullet proofs. It's a very quick recap. They prove they'd perform what's called a range proof, which basically just says the amount you're sending is correct. You're not sending negative Monero, you know, because if I can send you negative one Monero, I can take myself plus one Monero. Luke So they just check that you're not minting Monero by sending people negative Monero so that it all sums to zero. So if you have a, in computer terms, a 64 -bit number, just means it takes 64 bits to take to represent bits being a very fundamental piece of computer science. Luke It's either a zero or one. If you have a 64 -bit number, bullet proofs takes 64 statements. So it has, you know, for 0 -bit, 1 -bit, 2 -bit, 3 -bit, so on, for 64 statements. And the verifier actually has to execute all of those 64 statements. Luke It's linear. The amount of statements it has, the amount of stuff the verifier has to do. Microsoft research in 2019 or 2021, I'd have to double check, introduce Spartan. Spartan is a ZK snark that's completely trustless and does not require a curve cycle. Luke Although I'm trying to get Monero to move to a curve cycle for very legitimate reasons. And it is, they achieved logarithmic performance, I believe, it technically might be square root. But square root means if you're proving for 100 statements, you know, like you have 100 bits, and you're proving that, yes, this number is only made out of 100 bits, it only takes 10 bits. Luke So the verifier only has to check 10 bits worth of work. So the verifier just has to check a fraction of the work. So it's going to be immediately just much, much more performant. So the immediate move is to move to Spartan. Luke With Spartan, we'll just get much faster range proofs and we'll get much faster membership proofs. From there, the goal would be to move to Nova. So if we're currently proving for 16 outputs, we would create 16 bullet proofs, 16 range proofs. Luke Technically, we don't do that. We create an aggregate range proof, which is one proof, but with 16 outputs of data. With Nova, you create one output, and then you, with one proof, and you fold that proof into the next one. Luke So you do 16 proofs each for 64 bits, but you end up with one proof that's effectively just for 64 bits, despite being for 16 different invocations. The amount of times you run the program doesn't matter. Luke You still get one proof constant to the size of the program. So basically, if we have 16 outputs, it might as well be one output. If we have 16 inputs, it might as well be one input. The amount of inputs and outputs we have doesn't increase the amount of proof data or proof time. Luke Who developed Nova? That was also Microsoft and they did premise on it on a curve cycle, which is another reason to move to a curve cycle. And then from there, we can talk about like removing proofs from transactions entirely, just having one proof for the entire block. Luke Once we discuss having one proof for the entire block, we can talk about having one proof for the entire block chain, so on and so on. So it's really just about performance and scaling in my opinion. Doug Beautiful man. That was a fantastic overview. Sir Jamz There will be a quiz for anybody watching. Luke I think we're getting kicked out by the way. Sir Jamz if you want to wrap it up. Doug OK, OK, well, I hate to stick out Luke, but when he's around, I got to, he's just, you know. We got to get our money's worth with this guy. Sarai, what is the latest update with Sarai? Look, I've gone. Luke I'm four questions in a row guys. We're doing the test net on the sixth. March 6th is when the test net goes live. I'm not saying this will be the only test net. It definitely is not full featured, but it's still a major step forward and should still demonstrate swaps between Bitcoin and Monero. Luke And it's still a massive step that I'm really happy to be seeing. Sir Jamz Is that something you could demo on Sunday? Luke You mean can I demo the live test net before it goes live? Maybe show us a little bit. It is to see Denver, anything's possible. Of the network which isn't live? Yes. I'm probably going to be able to do that. Sir Jamz Yeah. Luke I saw you were time traveling to be the original manero man who made you the manero man So yeah, just that which should be great. Also trying to better Explore the economics. I believe there's a very great proposal for that coming up. Luke I There's been a lot of discussions about integrations recently and I'm really trying to avoid that until launch but some of them May deserve to get further expanded on nowadays So lots of things Doug for them. Awesome. Seth, anything you want to get out there? Seth Yeah, hold on a second, it's gonna require a visual aid, so I'm gonna just sort of free -do this a little bit. I see your camera angle is not quite right, and this is completely random, but it's one of these e -themper things. Sir Jamz is gonna do hands -down push -ups. Seth I mean, I'd like to. But Doug, what do you say I wanted to show you my Kulo instead? Sir Jamz Oh, you're getting flashed. Seth Yep, you're getting flashed by the Kool -O. So this is just randomly the funny thing about this trade shows like this is that this is This is a place where you're hearing literally the bleeding edge of Monero development and And the next sort of horizon of possibilities in that ecosystem Right next to a place where a guy is wearing a meme t -shirt a cartoon ass and you got people walking around like furries I love this place. Seth It's the best trade show and I wish you were here dog Honestly, I wish you were here because there's such an incredible vibe where you can you can hear Gather on the fireside and hear about what's being developed on that bleeding edge But then you can also go have a lot of fun Luke I'm so sorry, I've seen mascots and not seen furries. Those are two distinct groups of people. They are. I have not seen a single fursuit. I have seen mascots. I have seen characters. I have not seen furries, sir. Luke If you have to clarify, have you seen mascots or furries? Please answer. Okay. Seth So the full answer is last year, a furry or two. This year you are correct. No furries, only mascots. Luke This is the problem with our modern society. We over represent furries furries obviously did not feel welcome this year We need to make a space where they can feel a Loud if we can Seth Yeah, I'm making work here. I thought it would be here at Eat Denver, but I thought they would be here too. Luke Where's the Furries, man? Sir Jamz because there's too many spies. So, okay, we're gonna wrap up, but let's plug our event on Sunday because we're having a meetup. It's at the Banshee house in the afternoon. To a closet. Yeah, anybody wants to come. Sir Jamz We got our good friends at Cake Wallet that have sponsored some refreshments and cool technological things. We're gonna be displaying art from a few Monero artists. And we're gonna give a Cake Wallet demo the bird pay feature. Sir Jamz So I don't know when you're gonna get this uploaded, but anybody wants to get some bird pay Monero, then show up. Doug Sun this is happening at Sunday. Yes Yeah, say the venue again, we'll try to get this up. Yeah, we'll mention it tomorrow on the show as well Banshee house. All right All right guys, this was this is an amazing surprise This is awesome. Doug Thank you for taking the time and doing this all of you greatly appreciate it Seth I don't know Doug appreciate you man. You are you are you're of the voice of reason you're you're shouting it from the rooftops Definitely appreciate the work you do man Doug Thank you brother, you too. Thanks to all and I'll let you guys go. Do you want to, if you guys actually can, if you just quickly give out your Twitter or places where people can find you, if you just kind of go down the line. Seth Wow, so if you just make noise in the Monero simple x chat, I'll probably find you and You didn't know that did you so we are gonna get out again, but Twitter is mine your underscore biz I also run the website mine your dot is Sir Jamz Yeah, me on Twitter, it's sirjamsalot at magic mushroom breakfast. Luke Hayaba nerve on Twitter, but I'm also on matrix and discord feel free to reach out. Bye Doug All right. Thank you so much guys. Ciao Sir Jamz That was a spook. Luke We asked four questions in a row.