Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1278 - How Not to Be a Pushy Parent (With Professor Wendy Grolnick)

Transcript

#1278 - How Not to Be a Pushy Parent (With Professor Wendy Grolnick) · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast. My name is doctor
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Justin Colson. Thank you so much for joining in. We've
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: just commenced a series of in depth interviews.
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  Speaker 2: Where I speak to guests, we learn, we have some fun.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: And we get into the nitty gritty of what can
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: make parenting absolutely incredible and make families flourish well. Today's
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: guest is Professor Wendy Rolnick, a mother, an author, and
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: we're kind of kindred spirits and that we both work
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: to help build happy families and our area of research
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: is very very closely aligned. Professor Rolnick's book The Psychology
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: of Parental Control is one of my favorites, and Wendy
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  Speaker 1: is based out of the psychology department of Clark University
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: in Massachusetts. She's taught definitely three decades. So I began
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: by asking her about what family life looks like for her.
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  Speaker 3: Family wise, I have two grown children, two daughters. Yeah,
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: I've been married for thirty five years and parenting for thirty.
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  Speaker 1: Wendy we met at a conference, I think it was
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: about three or four years ago.
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  Speaker 2: It was in British Columbia.
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  Speaker 1: We were saying at this gorgeous hotel on the water
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: in Victoria, and I think it was about twenty seventeen.
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  Speaker 1: You and I had a great conversation about our mutual
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: interest in raising happy families, and we both have a
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: very strong interest in a theory in psychology known as
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: self determination theory, and it's something that I've really built.
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  Speaker 2: Much of what I share with parents around.
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  Speaker 1: You've done a recent study built on self determination theory,
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  Speaker 1: and you found that parents who were really doing well
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: with their families. In fact, you looked at families across
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: the board, so you weren't sort of saying, well, these
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: ones are doing well and these ones aren't. You just
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: got random families to come into the lab and fill
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: in some surveys and then go away and do some things.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: You got them to do a handful of things, and
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  Speaker 1: in particularly, you found that when they did three things successfully,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: their families were happier and their children are more likely
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: to thrive. So I wonder if you can step me
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: through what those three things were and what they actually
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: look like in practice from an applied you know, this
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  Speaker 1: is what parents need to do to do these three things.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, we've actually entered into the world of intervention, so
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  Speaker 3: I can tell you about how we've tried to help
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  Speaker 3: people move toward these three things. But yes, the three
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  Speaker 3: things are. One is support for autonomy. That is helping
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: children to feel that they are kind of like behind
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: their actions, they're the owner of their actions. They're not
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: being pushed and coerced. Because we know that when people
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: feel like they're being pushed and coerced, that they are
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: less happy and they're less likely to persevere in what
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: they're doing and be motivated and follow their passions. So
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: when you support autonomy and help children feel this way,
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  Speaker 3: you can do a number of things. And we've looked
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: at different strategies that parents can use. So one is
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: that you It all kind of starts with taking children's perspectives,
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: thinking of where are they coming from, how are they
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: thinking about what they're doing, and trying to get into
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  Speaker 3: their heads and understand their perspectives.
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  Speaker 2: And that's really hard.
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  Speaker 1: You get into the morning rush and the morning routine
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: and you've got to get the children out the door,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: and everything's going.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: A little bit crazy in Haywire, and the children are non.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Compliant, they don't want to get up and go to school,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: and they're feeling miserable or a bit lousy, and we
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: don't tend to take their perspective in that moment because
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: we're also running late, and if we don't get out
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: the door on time, we're going to miss the lights
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: at the bottom of the street. And if we don't
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: get through those lights at exactly seven fourteen, that means
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: that we're going to be stuck until seven twenty and
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: then we're going to get the peak hour traffic that's
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: six minutes is you know, it makes all the difference,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: and so have we feel a lot of pressure ourselves,
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  Speaker 1: and we tend to transfer that into the family environment, right,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: and then we take away their autonomy and start to
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: control them absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: And we've done some studies exactly on this. Stress makes
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: it really hard to be autonomy supportive. But when you
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  Speaker 3: think about it, if you can take the perspective of
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  Speaker 3: the child and just give them the sense that you
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: understand where they're coming from, they're going to be much
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: more open to all the other things that you want
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  Speaker 3: them to do. So if you can just say, I
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: understand that you'd much rather be listening to your iPad
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  Speaker 3: and playing on it and not getting ready, and it
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  Speaker 3: feels really pushy to for have me start do this,
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  Speaker 3: you know telling you to do it. Now, they'll be
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  Speaker 3: much more open to hearing well, but here's what we
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  Speaker 3: need to do, And they hear you better when they
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: know that you TA can take their perspective, understand them,
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  Speaker 3: and you're providing them a little bit of empathy for
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: where they're coming from.
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  Speaker 2: I say this to parents all the time.
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  Speaker 1: When you listen to a podcast or when you're sitting
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: in a room with somebody like you or I and
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: we're talking to you about that kind of thing, it
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  Speaker 1: all makes sense, right. We think, oh, yeah, I'm supposed
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: to take a breath and just connect with their emotion
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  Speaker 1: and say, well, you're really struggling and you just wish
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  Speaker 1: that this didn't have to be this way, don't you
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  Speaker 1: Like that makes sense when we're having this conversation. But
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: tomorrow morning, when somebody's going through it, that's the last
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  Speaker 1: thing you want to do. Like, it's exactly the opposite
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: of what you want to do, because you're feeling the
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: stress and pressure when you want to get that full momentum,
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  Speaker 1: you don't want to sort of put the brakes on
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: and sit down and hold the hand and look into
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  Speaker 1: their eyes and say you're having a tough time this
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: morning on't you right?
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  Speaker 3: Right? And so there are things you can do when
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: you're not in those very stressful moments that what might
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: make a difference for those stressful moments. So, for example,
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: if you're having this problem every morning, when there isn't
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: a problem going on and when it's a quiet time,
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: you can sit down together and talk this out. So
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  Speaker 3: part of autonomy support is taking kids' perspectives. Part of
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: it is giving them choicest part of it is problem
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  Speaker 3: solving together. And so you want to sit down and
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: problem solve together and say, you know, mornings have been
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: really rough. I know they're hard on you. I know
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  Speaker 3: it stinks when you have to hear me nag you
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  Speaker 3: in the morning. You just got up. Let's put our
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: heads together to figure out what we can do. What
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  Speaker 3: are your thoughts. So a ton of support means getting
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: kids input into problems that you're having and problem solving together. So, yes,
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: it's true at that moment that might not work, but
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: if the child comes up with some great idea as well,
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  Speaker 3: you could wake me up five minutes earlier, or you
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: could just knock at my door really quietly and let
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: me know it's time. So you come up with this together.
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  Speaker 3: There Again, when you don't feel like somebody's yelling at
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  Speaker 3: you and nagging at you and coming and imposing themselves
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  Speaker 3: upon you, you're much more likely to understand, you know,
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  Speaker 3: why you're doing it, and being this together and problem
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  Speaker 3: solve together.
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  Speaker 2: I love it.
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  Speaker 1: We've got this. First thing is autonomy support. But there
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: are three of these. And by the way, I think
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: that at least for me, as I've watched how my
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: parenting has changed over the last couple of decades raising
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  Speaker 1: my six kids, this for me is the lynchpin, like
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: stepping away from control and stepping towards supporting autonomy or
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: empowering our children to find the solutions that are inside
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: themsel to do well.
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  Speaker 2: That seems to be it.
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  Speaker 1: But there's two other things that you highlight that families
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  Speaker 1: that do best also emphasize. And those two things are
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: structure and involvement. And in your research you found that
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: this leads to the best outcomes comparatively compared to families
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  Speaker 1: that aren't doing this. So autonomy support, we've sort of
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: talked about that briefly. But what a structure and involvement
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  Speaker 1: and how do they work?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So structure is really connected to having kids have
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  Speaker 3: a sense of competence. So we put it into place
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  Speaker 3: to help kids feel like they know how to succeed
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  Speaker 3: in what you're asking them to do, or they know
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  Speaker 3: how to succeed in the world. And so structure is
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  Speaker 3: really the information you need to be successful. And what
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: you do is you set up the environment to increase
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  Speaker 3: the probability that kids are going to feel competent. And
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  Speaker 3: you can do that by having just really clear expectations,
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  Speaker 3: this is what we need to be doing, this is
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  Speaker 3: what I expect, and guidelines for how to do that
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  Speaker 3: feedback about how you're doing. So if the you know
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: the job is to to clean your room, you know
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  Speaker 3: what's expected, how often, what it means to clean your room,
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  Speaker 3: You know what to do, so that then you can
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  Speaker 3: children can plan their behavior and say, oh, I know,
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  Speaker 3: I know how to be successful here, So that that's
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: really important. The trick is you want to connect that
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  Speaker 3: with autonomy support. You don't want just to impose structure
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  Speaker 3: on kids and say this is how we're doing it,
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  Speaker 3: these are the rules, this is the schedule. Yeah, so
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  Speaker 3: you've heard a lot during the pandemic about you have
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  Speaker 3: to have a schedule but kids can have input into
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  Speaker 3: that schedule and feel like you together you own some
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  Speaker 3: of these guidelines and rules, and that's when it's they're
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  Speaker 3: going to be both feeling competent, like this is what
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  Speaker 3: I need to do, but also feeling I mean you
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  Speaker 3: use the word empowered, which is a good word, that
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  Speaker 3: you have some ownership of this and it's not just
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  Speaker 3: something that's coming from above.
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  Speaker 1: And so the odd da here from what I've written
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  Speaker 1: in your research and other researchers who have played in
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  Speaker 1: this area is ideally, as we create a sense of structure,
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  Speaker 1: it's not just about the routine and the schedule.
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  Speaker 2: It's actually it's about.
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  Speaker 1: The way we have small wins in our lives doing
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  Speaker 1: all of the things that matter. But the way that
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  Speaker 1: we create the structure ideally will be in an autonomy
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  Speaker 1: supportive way. So we'll sit down with our children and
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: say we have a little bit of a problem. You've
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  Speaker 1: probably noticed this is happening in our evenings, this is
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: happening on our Saturday mornings or our sundays are just
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: not working. They're not getting the quality family time that
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: we want. What can we do together to make this work?
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  Speaker 1: And then in a supportive non controlling way you develop
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: a sort of a sense of structure. Or you know,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: we're paying all this money for piano lessons, but it
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: seems like you just don't really get excited about practicing
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  Speaker 1: until twenty minutes before we have to run out the
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  Speaker 1: door to see the teacher.
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  Speaker 2: And this is not working.
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  Speaker 1: So it's really about having these conversations and bringing the
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: children in so that they can solve their own problems
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: and create those structures and supports.
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  Speaker 2: Is that how you're disc Yes.
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's really well said. Sometimes when we describe this
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  Speaker 3: to parents, they say, oh, well, what if they want
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: to get up at twelve, you know, twelve in the afternoon,
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: that's not acceptable. It's okay for you as a parent
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  Speaker 3: to sort of have your guidelines within which you are working,
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: and you're able to say, well, this idea that you
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: came up with isn't quite going to work because blah
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: blah blah, but here's some guidelines within which we can
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: we can choose. You know, any time between eight and
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: ten is okay to walk the dog. But so what
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: what do you choose? And you give a reason for
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: why twelve o'clock's not going to work? So it doesn't
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: mean that you're relinquishing your role as an authority. There
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: are some things that need to be decided within certain limits,
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: but you can still have a sense of input and
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: problem solving together within those guidelines.
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  Speaker 1: So we've got autonomy support where we're really saying to
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  Speaker 1: the children, I want to work with you as you
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: become volitional and control your own life, with me just
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: providing some gentle guidance to keep you in appropriate boundaries.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: We've got structure, which means we're going to set things
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: up so that our children can feel competent, I feel
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: like they're having small wins and have a sense that
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: they're in control of their environment. They're able to develop
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: a sense of mastery. And the third one was involvement.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: You found that families that are doing really well have
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: high levels of involvement compared to families that aren't doing
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: so well.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, whether it's involvement in school, or it's involvement
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: in more generally, in asking about what's going on and
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: doing things together as a family, doing family routines, all
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: of that really makes the difference in terms of kids
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: feelings secure and connective.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: I want to go back to autonomy support for a minute.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: This is I think, as I said before, this is
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: to me the lynchpin of what parents who are really
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: getting it right really focus on. They step away from control.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: So when I talk to parents about autonomy support, because
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: I have stepped out of the research thing and I
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: don't have to use all the academic words, I tend
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: to use words that are maybe a little bit more
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: practical for parents to say, Oh, I've just got to
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: do A, B and C. So I talk about it
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: in terms of the three ease of effective discipline. I
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: talk about exploring, explaining, and empowering.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: So when we.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Explore, we do that first step that you said where
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: we try to see the world through their eyes. We say,
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: why you're really struggling with this, this is a really
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: hard thing. You don't like what I've asked you to do,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: or whatever it might be. And then we spend a
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: little bit of time explaining so well, it's important to
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: you understand why this matters. You know, we have screen
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: time limits because if you spend too much time on screens,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: then A, B and C it will occur.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: You know, we don't have enough time to be together.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: There's an opportunity cost where you're not doing the other
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: things that matter are so much in your life, like
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: getting your school worked, or being physically fit, or doing
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: your music practice, or being a part of our family.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: And then we empower them, We say, so, if I'm
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: getting it right, this is really important to you because
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: of AB and C, but the and F for the
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: reasons that I'm struggling.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: So what are we going to do together? That's kind
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: of the autonomy support process the way I describe it.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: What do you think is the hardest part of actually
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: doing this with our children? So when I was looking
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: at your research, you talked about parents becoming stuck in
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: unhelpful patterns that kind of lead to pressure and control
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: and power struggles. So what are those patterns that lead
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: those power struggles and how do parents get better at
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: autonomy support?
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question. And I
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: would just to add to our time is probably sometimes
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: forget that our tinnis we are just isn't just about
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: the discipline and about the way we deal with problems,
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: but it's also supporting kids' initiations, you know, for things
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: that they're interested in and passionate about, sort of being
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: kind of right behind them. Rather than in front of
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: them and sort of supporting what is fun and exciting
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: for kids. My answer to your question about what gets
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: in the way was very much based on my own
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: experience with my kids. So I'm someone who's been studying
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: this since well before I had children, and I would
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: watch parents in our studies, you know, we had. My
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: first studies were with babies. We were with twelve month
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: olds and moms interacting with their babies, and the moms
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: taking the hands, the kid's hands and putting them, you know,
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: moving them, and you know, saying do it like this,
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: And they were so invested in their kids doing well
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: that they were very Some of them were very controlling,
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: and I looked at them. I would never I would
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: never do that. But when you had your own kids,
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: you realize this investment in them doing well is so strong.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: You don't want them to fail. You you love them,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: want them to succeed. You want them to be the
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: best that they can be. They want to want it
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: to have every opportunity. And that feeling it for me
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: was so visceral. It would be like I would feel
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: it in my in my in my heart, and in
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: my stomach, and it would make you want to impose
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: your your what you you know is going to be
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: the best thing. You know, don't wear that dress, nobody's
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: going to like it, you know, or do your homework
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: this way or whatever it was. You just really want
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: them to succeed. And so I realized, you know, I
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: uh started to do a bunch of research on just
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: this issue that we get. We're really invested it. Not
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: because we're bad people or we're parents get such a
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: bad rap sometimes that they're egotistical and narcissistic. No, all
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: parents have this feeling that they want their kids to
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: succeed because they love them. Nature gave that to us
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: so that we could do all this sacrificing for our kids.
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: It's and we feel it as love. And so when
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: we get into this place where we get hooked into
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: I know, the best thing, and I can't afford to
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: have my child fail because of our own biology, but
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: also because of the competition that's all around us. I mean,
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: the kids are just competing all the time, and that
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: hooks us in. And I think that's when we get
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: really controlling and pushy and pressuring our kids to do
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: things when in our hearts maybe we know that that's
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: not the best thing to do. So people who who
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: really like this theory and would love your three'es find
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: themselves being really pushy and controlling. So and then you're
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: in this power struggle because our natural tendency when we're
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: controlled is to push back. We're trying to get our
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: autonomy back, and sometimes we do the opposite, doesn't get
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: our autonomy back, But when we feel controlled, we push back.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: So then you get into these power struggles where I
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: don't want to wear that dress, but that dress kids
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: are going to like you if you wear that dress,
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: and that's going to be the best dress. And you're
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: back and forth, and you're thinking, how did I get
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: how did I get in this place in their first way?
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: I'm really interested.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: I'd love to go through the developmental progression just briefly
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: on this. So you talked about parents who were controlling
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: with their infants, you know, their twelve month or eighteen
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: month old children, and with their toddlers. And it's not
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: because the child is necessarily doing the wrong thing quote
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: unquote wrong thing, you know, being challenging, because at twelve
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: months old, they're not going to be particularly challenging or
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: eighteen months like you said, this well intentioned desire for
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: them to do well.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: But what did you.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Find in terms of outcomes when you compare the children
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: who are being controlled even as infants and toddlers by
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: well intentioned parents who just want their children to be
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: really good because you know, you're in the psychology department
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: and you're being observed by this researcher, and you want
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: your children to be in front of the curve, be
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: better than all the other kids. You want them to excel,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: and so you dive in and start showing them how
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: to do it. I mean, it makes sense that parents
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: would be controlling, especially in that situation, but obviously there
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: were some parents who weren't who would What were the
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: outcomes for the children in terms of their their motivation
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: to participate in the activity or the curiosity about the activity?
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know, how how far did you study them?
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: What what did you find?
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Just as a general summary of all of those various
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: studies that you've done in that area.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, in those first studies where we actually just gave
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: the parents a task with their children and we said
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: just sit next to him while he plays with it,
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: we didn't. We weren't even pushing them to do something. Uh.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: And some parents, like you, said solve the problem for
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: the child and move their arms and were very directive,
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: and other parents were sort of waiting, you know, stepping
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: back and waiting to be needed and allowing their children
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: to explore a little bit and things like that. And
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: then what we did was we had the children, introduced
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: the children to a kind of problem solving toy working
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: with an experimenter, and mom was sitting on the side
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: and just ask sort of said, make this work. So
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: and we looked at how persistent the kids were at
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: trying to solve the problems, and we found that the
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: ones who of the children, of the parents who are
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: more controlling and more solving problems for them, were less
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: motivated when they were kind of on their own to
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: try to solve this problem. So that was a really
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: important finding. And even at twelve months, then we followed
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: those kids up at twenty months, and the kids, again,
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: the kids are the more controlling parents were not only
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: less motivated to work on independent tasks, but they were
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: less competent at them in solving those tasks. So it
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: did look like there are some outcomes of solving problems
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: for kids and being really controlling.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: How can parents get out of those palace struggles? It
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: seems like we need to try to be autonomy supportive
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: by having conversations out of the moment and problem solving together.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, I think when a little of it is
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: self reflective, for me, it feels visceral. When you feel
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: that sense that i'm i'm I'm feeling really pressured to
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: push I'm feeling you know. I then to sort of
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: to be a little self perfected to say, where is
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: that coming from? Why am I feeling that way? What?
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: You know, what are really the risks of allowing my
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: child to uh not play the piano today or this week?
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: Or what are the risks of that?
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: What?
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: Where is that coming from? And sort of be interested
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: in it and realize it's just a feeling. It's a feeling.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: It's an uncomfortable feeling sometimes, but you don't have to
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: necessarily act on it, and you can sort of take
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: a step back and say, you know, what would be
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: what are the consequences if I allow this? Or I
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: ask the opinion? And of course that's easier said than
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: done when you're in a stressed moment. But but but
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: sometimes if you're you know, you can you can think
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: about what the what, what really are the consequences here,
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: and how can I make a better decision or the
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: best decision in terms of the situation. And I think
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: part of it also lies for me in having faith
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: in this and a theory of why people do what
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: they do. And in this case, what we do when
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: our intervention is is sort of give people a theory
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: so that they can have some faith in it. If
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: you really believe that people will follow their passions, if
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: they are supported in autonomously, then you'll be able to say, Okay,
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: you know the guitar wasn't for you, and you'll find
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: something else. But you have to have that faith that
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: people will find their interests if you allow that to happen,
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: and people really will do better if they're supported in
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: their autonomy, because I think what happens sometimes is you say,
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: oh God, if I if I don't make her take
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: that ap horse, and if I don't make her study
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: right now, you know it's going to be bad for her.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: But you still have to have faith that if I solve
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: this problem for her, if I control exactly what she's doing,
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: that it won't be such a good thing in the
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: long term, because in the short term it might feel
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: like it is. And so having faith in a theory
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: of human nature and is for me really important because
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: you get tested as a parent all the time.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: I love what you said there, Wendy, particularly this idea
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: that controlling parenting actually comes from fear. It's almost like
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: we're fearful that things are not going to be okay.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: We're fearful that everything's going to go wrong, and therefore
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: we step in with control because we feel like it's
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: our duty to fix it and we have the power
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: to do so. And what I'm hearing you say really
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: clearly is if we step back and provide the right
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: environment for our children where they feel safe, we're not
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: raising the white flag and saying, oh, well fine, if
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: you don't want to swim, if you don't want to
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: play tennis, if you don't want to learn how to
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: play the musical instrument, We're just not going to do
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: anything for you anymore. And you know you're going to
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: end up in your room and you're going to be
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: staring at a screen for the rest of your life.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: That's not going to work out very well. You know,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: that's kind of that fear paradigm, but instead to look
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: at our children and say, well, I guess that didn't
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: work out. You let us know what you think might
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: work out, and we'll support you in that instead, and
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: then step back with the trust that in the right
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: environment they actually will exactly.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: Trust is a really good word, trust in your kids
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: and also trust in the developmental process.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: If you created a simple list of outcomes that we
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: see in children who have parents who are autonomy supportive
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: and providing structure and building involvement, what would the evidence
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: point to just that, You know, what does the science
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: say happens when we do this stuff consistently?
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: How do our kids turn out great?
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: So kids a time whose parents are more autonomy sort
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: of will be more self regulating in their behavior, whether
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: it's in school, They'll be more likely to be more spontaneous, engaging,
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: and less likely to have to be pushed. They're going
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: to be They're going to be more self regulating. People
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: find that autonomy support is associated with better self esteem
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: because when people are solving problems for you all the time,
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: you're thinking, well, I must may not very good at this,
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: So so building self esteem being more active in their coping.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: So when they have setbacks, my parents are more tiomy supportive,
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: the kids will be more actively trying to solve the
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: problems and engaging and engaging them rather than throwing the
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: the bad exam into the garbage can and never looking
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: at it again.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of like they're becoming more resilient.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: It's it's like it's a resilience booster, it's a it's
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: a growth strategy.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: Exactly, and also feeling more in control of their successes
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: and failures that they can have an impact. And finally
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: also feeling more secure in their attachment. So when parents
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: are trying to sort of kids feel more like they
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: can count on their parents to be there when they
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: need them and feel more secure, and that enables you
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: to then explore your world a little bit more with
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: this backdrop of support.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: So when you think about the research that you've done
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: over the last thirty plus years into families, what's the
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: most powerful thing that you've learned and how has it
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: challenged convention and helped you to be a better Wendy Gronik.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. I think
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: in terms of parent the work with parents, I'm very
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: sensitive to the negative stereotypes and raps about parents, and
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: my experience working with parents is that they all want
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: the best for their kids there, you know, and they're
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: doing the things they do with that in mind. And
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: so so it's it's really important to not be judging
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: of how parents are acting and understanding that behind that
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: is wanting the best for their kids. And in all
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: the situations that we have, we can find that and
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: be and really be very supportive and positive ourselves.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: I love that. I love that. Yeah.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Well, to conclude our conversation, Wendy, and it's been so
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: wonderful talking to you, I ask five rapid fire questions
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: and I'm excited to hear your answers. So, if we
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: asked your two children their favorite thing to do with you, or,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: given that they're in the late twenties now, their favorite
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: memories of you because they're older, what would they say,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: favorite thing to do with mom and dad?
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: You know, it's funny. The other day, my daughter, my
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: older daughter who's thirty now, said to me, when we
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: were little, you let us do whatever we wanted. And
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: I don't think I let them do whatever they want,
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: but she gave this example of something anything that my
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: my younger daughter wanted to do. She wanted to every
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: week she had she wanted to give an award to
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: one of my older daughters the friend's parents as the
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: nicest parent of the week or something else. And I
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: actually and she'd got some flowers and I and she
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: she wanted We went to the house, we gave the
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: flowers and she said, why did you let her do that?
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: That was very strange. And I said, she was so
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: passionate about it was out of compassion. Why wouldn't I.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: Why wouldn't I let her do that? So they do
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: have this sense that that that I I followed them
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: and sometimes and and that's a really nice thing, and
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: allowed them to follow there sometimes silly or funny interests
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: and cookie interests. So they probably say that, so.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: What's being you a trickiest parenting moment?
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: It's tricky to be a motivation researcher on parenting with
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: with children because they actually at a certain point they
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: read my book and they would say things like they
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: would use my language and they would say, Mom, you're
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: being controlling. You can't you're not practicing what your page.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: And so sometimes when we were dealing with you know,
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: tricky things in teenagerhood about curfew and things like that.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: They would use use the language against me. I'd say, well,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: I'm just trying to provide structure, and I think just
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: also just trying to stay true to what I what
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: I believe, but tested all the time with those moments
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: where I got hooked into wanting wanting to make sure
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: everything turned out okay, and couldn't.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: I couldn't do that all the time, so much pressure.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Question number three.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: If you could spend an hour with your kids at
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: any age at all, let's say tomorrow afternoon at three
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: o'clock they're going to walk in your living room and
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: they're going to be that magical age. What age would
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: you pick?
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: And why I would pick? How they are exactly now
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: for me, every stage, every time, every time they grow.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: I'm just wowed by who they are as you know
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: and so, and the way in which we can interact
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: now as friends and colleagues and equals and a parent child.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: But so right now I think would be would be
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: my pick. I just love interacting with them as adults.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Great, So question number four of the five, No matter
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: how good life has been and how glad you are
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: to be in the moment right now. What are you
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: most looking forward to as a mom?
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: Oh gosh, just seeing them settled in whatever interests them
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: and happy and so just seeing.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: That move along beautiful.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: And the last question, which is my favorite, if you
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: could go back to Wendy Grohlnik as a young mom
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: with no experience at this parenting thing at all, what
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: one piece of advice would you give yourself and how
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: did you learn how valuable that were.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: It's actually a piece of advice that I give parents,
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: and I try not to give too much of advice,
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: but when we work with them, is that to see
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: every setback that your child has as an opportunity for
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: them to learn something. And I wish I had known
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: that at the time. This is just an example. There
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: was one year that at the school that my older
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: daughter was at, the principal would say, you can't ask
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: for a particular teacher. That was a rule, but apparently
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: everybody did and I just didn't realize it, So so
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: we always got the new teacher. So one year I'm
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: a rule follower that way. So one year she got
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: this teacher that was just really not knowledgeable. It was
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: a friend of a friend or something like that. She
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: only lasted a year, but she really set the kids
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: back in the sense that she really didn't know what
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: they had learned last year. They were learning old things.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: And at the time I was thinking, you know, I
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: should really do something and change her class, and you know,
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: this is terrible and she's going to be behind well
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: that year because that all the other teachers were giving
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: were producing plays in their classrooms, and this teacher didn't.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: My older daughter actually asked the teacher, can I write
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: a play and that the school can put off? And
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: she put on this play. She wrote the play, she
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: put on the play in her class, She developed a
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: philanthropic project that year. And so growth happens in the
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: strangest places, and so if I engineered that to get
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: her out of it, that never would have happened. So
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: the opportunities that of helping your kids deal with whatever
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: is in front of them in an autonomy supportive way
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: and learn those skills. And you just never know what's
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: going to be the growth opportunity. So when parents come
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: in and say this is happening and I don't think
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: it's good, this is a great opportunity for you to
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: teach your that you can get through this. I don't
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: think I knew that, but if I had known that,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: I probably wouldn't have believed it. So but I wish
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: I wish I had and I do try to convey
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: that to parents that it's all just a learning opportunity.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Thank goodness, this bad thing happened or this challenge happened
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: because your child's still home and they're not in college
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: yet where they're not going to have you there to
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: help them through it.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Wendy, so very grateful for you being so generous with
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: your time and with your expertise today. It's beautiful. It's
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: great to have the conversation. So I'm tremendously thankful it's been.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: Oh I hope it was useful.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: I hope that you've gotten some wonderful insight into Wendy
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Gronick as a result of this podcast. Wendy's a wonderful
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: communicator and has some brilliant thoughts around how we can
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: support and encourage our kids without pressure and coercion. Her
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: books are well worth looking up, and I think they'd
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: be a great resource for any parent's library. If you'd
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: like more information on how to access more premium content
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: visit happy families dot com.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Do you look on memberships
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Hmm,