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Mythmakers Season 5 Wrap Up · Mythmakers

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to our compilation of the top moments in season 5 of MythMakers.
• 0:12
  My name is Julia Golding and MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
• 0:18
  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.
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  We've pulled out some moments which we think you might enjoy from the, oh I think we've reached
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  almost 20 episodes in this season.
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  Anyway, let's start with Romantasy.
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  Now Romantasy is the genre that everyone's been talking about and there have been lots
• 0:42
  of books published in this area and that name Romantasy is a blend of romantic and fantasy
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  and the book that really has been at the head of this trend is called Fourth Wing by Rebecca
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  Yarros and in this excerpt you'll hear me doing a deep dive into what makes Romantasy
• 1:01
  work, the erotic content and how that has fed into the popularity and also I unpack the
• 1:10
  approach that Rebecca takes in her book so I hope you enjoy.
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  Let's look at the sociology of the popularity of this genre.
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  I've mentioned, excuse female, I've mentioned that it has a high erotic content and in
• 1:27
  this it feels like a brand of an adult fairy tale and it sometimes feels like fan fiction.
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  What I mean by that is someone has thought in their daydreams, here is a story what would
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  happen if I do an erotic daydream about it, where can I push it, that's how it feels
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  to me reading it and there's nothing wrong with a healthy imagination for your sexuality
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  that's part of what makes us human, isn't it?
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  So what works in the Rebecca Yarros book to make it so particularly popular, well just
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  looking at it as a technical exercise, she picks a first person present tense narrative.
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  The story of it is from the point of view of Violet our main character.
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  What this does is it gives an immediacy to the story and it limits our knowledge of the
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  world and its plot so we discover it at the same time as she does to certain extent because
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  Violet is going into this Dragon Rider program.
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  So it's relatively new to her though she has lived quite close to other family members
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  who have gone through the same training so she does have some knowledge.
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  But that first person immediacy where she doesn't understand everything that's going
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  on and the little plots and the conspiracies of that world so we are following her in the
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  way that you do in a detective fiction that's written from a first person point of view.
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  And of course that first person present makes us very close to the character, we are kind
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  of her as we are reading it because of the eye.
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  But that immediacy wouldn't work unless the pacing was correct.
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  It does have the first year at school structure, first year at university which you find in
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  other fantasy novels of course and sometimes the weakness in that let's do a whole school
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  year thing is that there are you mark time to get to the next big event.
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  And this doesn't happen in this book so when she first joins the Dragon Rider program
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  we know that there's a big test coming up called thrashing and that came earlier in the
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  book than I was expecting.
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  It isn't a climax at the end, it's more like a midpoint big event.
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  So it means that it does actually run along, it gallops along this story and you don't
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  get to the point where you think oh come on, skip a few pages, I want to see what happens.
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  And so the actual structure of the book is that we resolve the question of will she or
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  won't she become a Dragon Rider fairly early on so that we have the rest of the book
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  to unpack the politics of this world.
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  And as you'll see from the actual physical book I'm holding up here, it's a long book
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  for those of you who are listening to this, let's do a quick look at the page count 561.
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  So it's not a short read.
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  But it feels short because you're turning the pages, Twilight had that same box of chocolates
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  feel that once you started reading it you wanted to keep on eating the chocolates.
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  So yeah that works in this.
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  I would just say though that even though the characters are supposed to be what I would
• 4:51
  call more university age, I don't really hear precisely if people's ages but at one
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  point Zaden, the male hero is mentioned as being 23.
• 5:04
  They do feel younger to me, they do feel more like high schoolers.
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  I don't know that maybe that's just me because I'm old and crumbly but they kept saying
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  their adults in the mature but they didn't feel hugely mature to me.
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  Anyway that was just my, my, my J did, that's me, being too old, I don't know but I felt
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  they felt younger than their given ages.
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  Before I came to this book I had read, I was looking for what was different about it
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  in according to reviewers and I saw two things which were sort of touted about it.
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  One was the very high death count so yes lots of people die.
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  You do meet, you do lose a couple of beloved characters but they're not central characters
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  that are adjacent characters.
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  So I always shopped by high death counts, I mean Harry Potter killed off quite a lot of
• 6:03
  people and that was a long time ago now.
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  Game of Thrones killed off a lot of people, I don't know if that's that shocking and obviously
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  any book that has a war in it is going to kill people.
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  In our second excerpt, I introduce you to and podcast partner who I often have really
• 6:22
  fun conversations with that's Jacob Renica who works for a games maker over in Seattle.
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  And in this excerpt here and I are discussing why fantasy films are so often overlooked
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  at the Oscars.
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  Last year's winner, everything everywhere all at once is a kind of sci-fi high concept.
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  But yeah, I suppose you could say that's fantasy.
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  A border on fantasy, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so maybe when then they do have that element
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  in them, it doesn't stop them winning but with the only absolute mainstream total yes that's
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  a fantasy film is obviously Return of the King which won the Oscar in 2004, I think it
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  was.
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  And yeah, everybody agrees that's a fantasy film, whereas the others you might describe
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  more as a hybrid of other sorts of genres.
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  But yeah, that's right.
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  But to the performances and there you really do come up against a problem of them not
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  rewarding performances in a fantasy film.
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  Right, yeah, yeah, and that's yeah, that's to be expected and with these, I think you're
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  right on with the like blending of genres makes it more palatable but that if it's a heavily,
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  it does genre piece that's heavy fantasy or sci-fi or even to be fair, like you said,
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  you know, like an action film if it's kind of a big budget blockbuster action film comedies
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  westerns even what westerns more so because I think they can get to more of that serious
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  slash, you know, meaningful and tortured performances but a lot of those have like a big budget,
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  mass, audience, films, those aren't the ones that are being considered here rewarded.
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  So for the actors it's the same thing so it's really interesting what the actor is
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  in this most recent Oscar round coming up that Barbie which is a fantasy, fantasy film
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  is has you know nominations for best picture and two supporting actors and adapted screenplay
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  but not for best director or best actor. So Margot Robbie does not even get a nomination even
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  though the film is nominated and the supporting actors is really fascinating looking at those
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  the supporting actors by Ryan Gosling and Marika Ferreira as kind of like more tortured.
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  Yes, it is Barbie story but if you look at what the characters know themselves are having to
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  wrestle with more intensively and that's what they're in in that degree of supporting actor not
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  in the primary actor. It's really interesting on how yeah so how Margot Robbie and the main
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  character for the film would not be nominated but it's the same film and the same storyline but
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  that the two supporting actors from that fantasy film are nominated. So there's a really interesting
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  that that's a good demonstration of what is like Margot Robbie's character is Barbie most of the
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  way through right it's kind of her performance is fairly even and level whereas the other two
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  are characters that are kind of like yanked from their world and you see them wrestling at least
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  it in Howard it is more intensively and because I was I think perhaps less screen time on them you
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  can see the wrestle a little bit more it's intense than over the entire film but yeah that's a song.
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  Right exactly exactly and the song doesn't that doesn't hurt but yeah so the so the the individuals
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  and performances yeah so we have like with Lord of the Rings in particular with as many Academy
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  Awards as it did receive including you know best picture best director best screenplay for
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  Margot Robbie King the only actor nomination or award that you got was for Ian McKellen just from
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  fellowship with the ring was the one that was won there so it's interesting looking at yeah the
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  different characters there and there's yeah it's it's hard to say but that's just an interesting trend
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  so did Ian McKellen sorry did he win something for it or was he just nominated I don't I thought
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  he was I didn't think anything got an acting award he didn't he didn't get an award but he was
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  it was a nomination so he was the only one that was nominated didn't win but that was even the only
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  nomination across all three films was just Ian McKellen for the for fellowship with the ring
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  oh I've forgotten that I'm just looking through the list of people the men who won the acting
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  role I need to pull up the women because I'm having them back in my mind that maybe Michelle
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  you know one one for everything everywhere all at once yes yeah yeah so that's a woman really
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  winning a main if we allow that to be a fantasy of course you're like him Phoenix one for being
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  walking Phoenix and that's exactly what he said it's the tortured yeah right so she okay and and
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  the only and I'd say like even for like doing like a big budget or an even yeah big budget joker
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  versus dark night so you have two the only I would say you're like the two best actor roles
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  in a fantasy fantasy type or a fantasy addition film you have Pete Ledger for the Joker and
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  walking Phoenix for Phoenix for the Joker both the which performances are these again like tortured
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  individuals that are vacillating between two different worlds and so but but it's it's it's
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  it's really interesting that it's the same character that is winning both of those roles even
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  those different franchises it's within the same story world of that man but that's where you get
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  these that man is never nominated for or is this does never get this award for and only can think
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  nominated for best actor whereas the Dylan the more a kind of emotionally complicated and tortured
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  he keep going back to that word but yeah so that's that's kind of a anomaly in the best actor
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  wins moving on to our third excerpt I began the year by having an absolutely amazing time in New
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  Zealand in January so I came back ready to spread the news about how excellent it is for Lord
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  of the Rings fans to visit the place where many of the films were made and you'll hear me and Jacob
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  discussing where it best to go in New Zealand for your Lord of the Rings pilgrimage if you were going
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  to go to New Zealand we've got any sort of on your must see list of things to go to having yeah
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  that's hard making out yeah having watched it yeah that's so I know that with one of the reasons why
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  New Zealand made for such a great filming location is the incredible diversity of the landscape
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  right so you can within an hour and a half flight you can get to you know mount snowy mountains
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  and you know the you know forests kind of rolling hillsides of course trying to do the only thing
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  I don't have is a desert so if so that yeah so that that any of those places like I would be tickled
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  I mean hobbitin is pictures and so that's that that of course would be fun for more of a if
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  on that particular travel day I was looking to relax a little bit more slow my pace I think
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  that would be great if I was in a frenetic mood I would perhaps want to be a little more adventurous
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  and go hiking the path of courageous and yeah that is quite excellent yeah no I mean the funny thing
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  is that even though I sort of think I'm fairly you know I did geography at school and I sort of
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  renew a map vaguely of New Zealand and I'd watch the making of I hadn't really grasped
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  until I went there exactly how it all works so if you're planning your check tell us you're
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  planning your pilgrimage the two islands the south island is sort of a rounder and fatter island
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  and it's further south so it's colder and that's where the dramatic out type scenery is not
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  that the north island doesn't have mountains but it's the the ones you're thinking of in the
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  fly past but it's also very very sparsely populated so it's real wilderness you can go to places where
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  there are no farms there's no fences there's no sign of people for miles and miles and miles and
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  miles it's quite a phenomenon so if the population is something like I don't quote me on this but
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  it's something like five million only a million of those live in the south island the north island
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  which is kind of longer and thinner like a diamond shape very roughly we're Wellington down
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  the bottom and Auckland up the top has everybody else and a lot of those people are in either
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  Auckland which is the biggest city and Wellington so it reminded me a bit actually of Iceland
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  Iceland has a similar thing except east to west where a lot of people live around yet
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  recubic and the rest of the country is fairly empty so it had that feel to it and no wonder both
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  places are used for fantasy films because they have so many faces you can set up a camera and do a
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  360 pan without seeing anything else so if you're actually planning to do your Lord of the Rings tour
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  we did it an unconventional way most people start up in Auckland and make their way down to
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  Queenstown I actually did it the other way around why not so I would say my top five places to go
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  would be in order of visiting them this is I would go to the lakes around Lake Tecapo
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  which is quite near Christchurch so you're on the south island and Lake Tecapo and the
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  late next door to it whose name escapes me just now are the lake there you see them
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  in the the Hobbit for Lake Town is that sort of amazing really really blue wonderful lake
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  very beautiful also great place to start days then going down I'd go to Queenstown which is like
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  number one Queenstown is almost everything it's almost everything it's the remarkable mountains as
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  a range called the remarkables are used again and again their barrier mountains for more door they
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  pop up loads of times they use for part of the retreat where they go into the hills in Rohan
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  and they get the sword I'm just trying to remember what that place is near the past of the dead
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  and then of course up at the near Queenstown if you go along the lake to a place called Glen Oki
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  this is a couple of hours drive right up towards the foot of the mountains there you see Caradras
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  there you see zero zero axigil where you know Gandalf fought the bow rob there you see Beyon's house
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  I mean it was it was multi-purpose bits of Lothlorian it's absolutely beautiful I've got it as my
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  desktop saver because it's such a beautiful place you know it's so I highly recommend Queenstown
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  and now in exit four we change the mood a little I've been working on a series which I'm continuing
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  to do a chapter by chapter deep dive from an author's point of view into my favorite book the Lord
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  of the Rings and I'm hoping that by looking at it from the perspective of someone who also writes
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  many novels and fantasy novels included that you'll be getting some fresh insights that will
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  accompany you on your next reread of the Lord of the Rings and here I am discussing chapter three
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  of the Fellowship of the Ring whether Hobbits are just about to set out on their journey
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  now the main thing I want to talk about in the writer's journey in this particular chapter is
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  some wonderful evocations of place but absolutely charged with emotion and here we get a very good
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  example just as they're about to leave the sun went down bag end seemed sad and gloomy and
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  disheveled Frodo wondered round the familiar rooms and saw the light of the sunset fade on the
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  walls and the shadows creep out of the corners so that's a sort of darkening of the mood but that
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  word disheveled that's a very talking word it comes up again in relation to a description of
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  a woodland being or a forest being disheveled it's normally used of a person someone is you know
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  like you go through a head you come out disheveled so therefore it means that bag end
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  is given a sort of personality it's disheveled it's neglected it's empty it's a very good choice
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  of word and without any fanfare we get introduction to one of the most scary of our bad guys which is
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  the introduction of a black rider it's muted though because Frodo is overhearing a conversation where
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  can really only hear Gaffa Gamji's part of that and Gaffa Gamji is not cowed by the black rider
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  they black riders themselves they gain in power as this book goes on they gain in power as the numbers
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  increase but at this point Tolkien is still playing his cards close to his chest on a second reading
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  you know what's going on but the first time you read this you're unaware just how important this
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  conversation is and how much of a how much in danger Gaffa Gamji is and Frodo himself but it reminds
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  us that Frodo is hunted and people are looking for him so thankfully finally he actually gets going
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  still there's no particular hurry they're walking at night through landscape that they've
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  walked many times before that they know like the back of their hands and what I want to highlight
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  here which is a huge strength of Tolkien's writing which is that everything is very specific
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  you feel as though you could actually pick up this book and if this place existed you could use it
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  as a guide to how to go on this walk but his descriptions are always loaded with a certain kind
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  of mood and atmosphere and in this first one as they leave bag end there's this subtle poetry
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  of thinness it starts with Frodo joking that if he carries on walking he'll burn off some of his
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  fat and he'll end up like a willow wand but that then that idea of thinness then seems to be
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  folded into the landscape it's full of spindly images you've got the black ribbon of the stream
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  the smoke like wisps of mist the thin cloud birches these are all in the next paragraph or two
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  it's reminder that Tolkien is also a poet his use of the language when it comes to the landscape
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  is particularly subtle powerful and really well imagined this isn't a vague fantasy world
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  somewhere other this is a landscape that he makes you believe in 100% and as they settle down for
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  the night in the roots of a big pine tree making a fire of the pine cones and dry wood you almost
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  most feel as though you're getting a guide to camping in the English countryside Tolkien and his
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  friends love their walking holidays so they probably actually themselves did something very much
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  like this and then there's an odd note a fox enters the story and it's given a moment when we hear
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  the thoughts of this fox thinking how strange it is to see the hobbits broad at night now this
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  is possibly one of the last echoes of a book meant for children the idea of an animal with sort
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  of human like thoughts but it also is in step with the idea of the shy being friendly it's foxes
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  they have in the shy not the wolves and the warks that they will later meet I can't think of another
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  occasion when the narrator actually goes into the head of an animal obviously there are speaking
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  animals like the eagles but this little passage is a anodity and carrying on with this theme of
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  the brilliance of the nature writing you get in Tolkien and why I would personally choose it as my
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  desert island book because I feel transported back to some of the most beautiful parts of the
• 24:01
  English countryside when I'm reading this and finally there's been quite a lot of Tolkien related
• 24:09
  news for those who are fans of films in this season there's both animated film forthcoming
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  about the Rohan culture the war of the heroine but the one that to call our attention is the
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  news that Peter Jackson and Andy Circus have teamed up to begin work on a prequel called the hunt
• 24:33
  for Gollum so if you want to find out what the hunt for Gollum might be like have a listen to our
• 24:39
  discussion so there is a long period where Gandalf and Aragorn are hunting him in fact Gandalf says he
• 24:49
  goes away and it's Aragorn who actually catches up with Gollum and causing back there's that
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  part so you just need to turn to the chapter called the Shadow of the Past and you can read that
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  material there's what happens after that after they've talked to Gollum is he is putting the care
• 25:08
  of the wood elves that's Thrandwheel Legolas' father that kingdom and he's looked after there
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  and we get another little glimpse of what might have happened to Gollum when Legolas reveals that
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  Gollum escaped the elves' hair captivity and this is something that comes up during the council
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  of Aragorn so there's another mention of Gollum at that point thinking about this as a literary
• 25:37
  technique it's talking keeping on just gently nudging us of Gollum's existence so that when he does
• 25:45
  turn up we've had the way prepared for us with talk of Gollum so two places to have a quick look at
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  would be the Shadow of the Past and the Council of Aragorn to see the material which the hunt for
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  Gollum might be covering but there's also a third place which you may not have noticed because it's
• 26:07
  in the appendices this is where they're really working their rights as Peter Jackson and Andy
• 26:14
  Circus because it comes in appendix B where there is a timeline of the third age and the key
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  events and the hunt for Gollum features in that so for example we hear that in at Dolbo's farewell
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  feast Gandalf begins to suspect that the ring is the one and he sets off seeking for news of Gollum
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  and calls on the help of Aragorn so that's three thousand and one and then it's not till three thousand
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  and nine it's a cut a lot on film this isn't it I imagine they'll truncate all of this it says
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  Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years
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  they're persistent they're going to give them that searching in the fails of Anduin,
• 27:08
  Merkwood and Ruffanian to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years Gollum himself
• 27:15
  ventured into Mordor and was captured by Sauron that sort of is that central bit where the key
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  fact that Baggins from the Shah got the ring is revealed. Gollum is actually in captivity
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  in Mordor for some years because it says in 3017 so that 16 years after Billbo's farewell feast
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  Gollum is released from Mordor and is taken by Aragorn in the dead marshes and brought to Thrandwell
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  in Merkwood so that's the bit that links up to the captivity on the wood elves and you'll remember
• 27:52
  when Gollum is travelling with Frodo and Sam he talks about not liking Elven food
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  and also we learn another detail that the reason why he escaped the wood elves I think this is
• 28:09
  during the council of Elrond that they took pity on him and would allow him to climb a tree
• 28:15
  to sort of sniff the air and you know a gang of orcs came by and killed his guards and he escaped
• 28:22
  and that was possibly set up as a way of helping him escape.
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  Thank you very much for listening to Mythmakers this season. We start again very soon in September
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  and we will begin with some fantastic debut authors who have already crossed my path
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  and I look forward to sharing their work with you but as ever we will also be doing a lot of
• 28:51
  talking related content and carrying on with our travels through the Lord the Rings the brightest
• 28:58
  journey. Thank you very much for listening.
• 29:06
  Thanks for listening to Mythmakers podcast brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy
• 29:12
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• 29:19
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