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From Homelessness to Happiness Featuring Brooke Bowman · The Inspired Speaker Network

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You are listening to The Awakening Woman on the Rise. If you are a woman who is
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seeking to live a more authentic life but are feeling not enough to step out fully
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just yet, you are in the right place. If you are a woman who is looking to live
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your personal truth and make the impact you truly desire, you are in the right
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place. I'm your host, Wendy Yacboski. Let's step out in this together. So welcome
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everyone to this interview of The Awakening Woman on the Rise and I am so
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excited to talk to my guest today, Brooke Bowman, who has come back from a life
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that many people believe not possible to come back from. But here today we're
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going to learn that it is possible and I'm so thrilled to hear what you have to
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share, Brooke. Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be here.
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So what I know, Brooke, and speak to what feels right for you is that for 10
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years you were experiencing life as a heroin addict and also two and a half
1:21
years homeless. Now, I don't know if those were within the same 10 years, but what
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would you like to share with us about maybe how it happened, how it went?
1:33
So I'll let you speak now.
1:36
Yeah, yeah. So it was quite a bit of time. I started using heroin, I was
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probably 19 or 20, and it fairly quickly became a daily habit. It's a
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little bit of a funny story, because I got it in my head that I wanted to
1:54
find out what withdrawal was like. I had a bunch of sort of personal growth
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practices at the time, and one of them that I briefly flirted with was to
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put myself in the shoes of people that I looked down on or felt judgment
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towards. A lot of this was ego, too. I was just, you know, I thought I
2:12
could handle it. So the first time I tried it, it was really the second
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time. But the first time I really intentionally decided to try it was I
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spent a weekend smoking with a friend, and I wanted to try to trigger
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withdrawal symptoms. And that didn't work. So then I smoked it for two
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weeks straight. And that was enough time. And then 10 years later,
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wow, and I did actually quit. So I started the last time I recreationally
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used an opiate was would have been 2017, I think. And that is around
2:47
when I became homeless. So I call it graduating from heroin to crystal
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meth, because I actually think crystal meth is far worse for you than
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heroin is. I think that heroin tends to get a stronger hold on people,
2:58
but the damage that I did to my body and life when I was using crystal
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meth was much worse. And that one I used off and on for the two and a
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while, I was homeless, and sort of had a bunch of things happen while I
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was homeless, that led to kind of one of those cloud partying moments
3:14
where all of a sudden, everything felt like it was okay, and it was
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going to be okay. And my life has just been on a pretty steady upward
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climb since then.
3:23
Wow, sounds like an awakening to me.
3:27
Yeah, you know, go ahead.
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Oh, I was just gonna say I read some about, you know, people talking
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about being born again, and sort of religious context after that
3:36
experience. And it really is kind of one of the closest ways to
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describing how I felt, you know, my palate changed, the kind of
3:44
foods that I liked changed. I remember one time somebody asked
3:47
me if I was afraid of heights, and I was just, I just said, I
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don't know, I haven't been somewhere high since I became
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this new person. I just don't know. So much about so much
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about even my preferences changed when that sort of light switch
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happened.
4:01
You know, I have a question, Brooke, that perhaps other people
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wonder as well, but I'll just ask it on my own behalf, is it? What
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did heroin and perhaps crystal meth give you that you thought you
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didn't have? Is it fair to ask it in that way?
4:18
Absolutely. Yeah, I believe, you know, I think it's, it's a
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little bit of a misdirection to consider drug addictions as
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this entirely different class of things and say food addictions
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or our screen addictions, things like that. I think that
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they're all trying to meet some need that that hasn't been in
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other ways. And you can kind of break up my adult life in
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chunks. So I started with MDMA. And I think that that one, I
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think I just had some PTSD from my childhood. And I was
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unintentionally, you know, I didn't go out and party on it.
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I sat in a small group with friends. And we talked about
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our childhoods. And we talked about how much we liked each
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other and the reasons we liked each other. And it was really
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healing for me. So I think that was MDMA. I did that
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fairly regularly for about a year. And then college was
4:59
cocaine. I use that one for personal growth, I could go off
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on that one for quite a while. But then that sort of led to
5:07
heroin. And looking back, I think I have it's hard to
5:13
know, it's hard to put myself back into who I was before and
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the way that I perceive the world. But now I'm very aware
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I have some pretty, pretty severe sensory sensitivities,
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not not all the way, you know, it's not debilitating. But I
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do notice I start to head starts to feel full of static
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when there's a bunch of conversations happening around
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me and loud noises are hard and bright lights are hard. And I
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was just I think I was so disconnected from my body and
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from what what was actually happening in the moment that I
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was trying to kind of force myself to fit a life that
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didn't really fit with my neurotype. And I because I
5:45
you know, some people describe heroin as very euphoric. And I
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believe that that is a possible feeling that you can get from
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it. But it was never euphoric for me. It was the best
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description description I've heard of it is it's like a
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warm washcloth over your mind. So really just like it cleared
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out some of that static, I think some of the sensory
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stuff. And then much bigger than that, I think I was just a
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severely anxious person. And I and that I didn't want to be
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an anxious person, I consider myself, you know, tough and
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stoic and all these things. I was just I was just
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bottling it up. It was it really was there. And because
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I had this big blind spot around it, I think that a lot
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of my hair and use was treating that that anxiety
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and that stress. And once I got better at managing that
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I didn't I didn't need so much anymore.
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Yeah, that's so powerful book, because I don't know of
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many people that aren't aren't struggling with childhood
6:38
things or things that are expected of them that are so
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not not who they are, which is to me is as part of the
6:47
awakening that I hope to to support and foster through
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this podcast. But there's so much that's going on that
6:55
sometimes people just don't know where to turn to get
6:58
maybe the feeling that they want. I know somebody that
7:01
used to take care when because it made them feel
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powerful. You know, so if we're not feeling power,
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which is a which is an intrinsic part of us power or
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empowerment. You don't know where to get it. You
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don't know where to look for it. And the people that
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are in your circle can't give it to you because
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they're, you know, probably part of that old stuff,
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you know, so I can I can really see and how how it
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can be. I know that you had your reasons for for
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starting, right? But I think that we have a natural
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knowing or experience that's not conscious of ease
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and joy in our life. And we keep trying to get back
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to it. And we do it in whatever way works. It's
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kind of like, you know, to meet those needs. I
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remember a term I've never forgotten, Brooke, and
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it's called things that we would crawl over
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crushed glass for. Right? Because that need is so
8:07
primary. So important that we do what it takes.
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And sometimes on a physiological level, though it
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can take over, I guess, you know, but did did you
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find Brooke that you struggled with it at all or
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kind of was it a progression for you?
8:29
Oh, can you can you expand that question? But I'm
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not sure I understand exactly what you're asking.
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Well, I know that when I'm doing things that my
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brain is saying, Wendy, you shouldn't be doing
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that. Or, you know, are you crazy or whatever,
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you know, it says so I kind of fight with myself.
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I don't I don't just go, I'll stop when I'm ready,
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or, you know, so that kind of thing, if that makes
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sense. Well, to answer your question, maybe a
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little bit indirectly, that was one of the things
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that really stood out to me, sort of when I
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transitioned away from from this stuff, because
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you know, I mentioned that I had this moment, I
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kind of call it my happiness switch flipping,
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when you know, this is a year or two after I
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put opiates, but I was using crystal meth and I
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was homeless. When I had a domestic violence
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situation that was kind of ongoing, and a near
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death experience involving that relationship.
9:23
And it was it was not very long after that,
9:26
that I and I could I think it's it's a little
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bit of a tale, I could go into more detail on
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how I got to this, this sort of realization
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afterwards. But after that point, I just I just
9:37
realized that trying to let me back up just a
9:43
little bit. The my reasons for using change,
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I kept using crystal meth for a little while
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after that. But my entire life up to that point,
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you know, I'd had this sort of sense of
9:53
dissonance, where part of me knew that it was
9:54
bad, that I was still using it. But like also I
9:56
had these reasons that I liked it for whatever.
9:59
But I think at a certain point, I had begun
10:01
using to treat the shame of using. And it
10:04
was this near death experience. And also just
10:06
kind of, you know, when I'd gotten on the
10:09
street, I that forced me to kind of reckon
10:11
with, you know, there were there were things
10:13
wrong in my brain. You know, I had obviously
10:15
I'd made some some wrong decisions and all
10:17
that, in a way that I'd never really had to
10:20
confront before. And it was this sort of near
10:22
death experience and the processing that
10:24
followed it, that led me to realizing, you
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know, I make sense as a person, you know, I
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had all these things that were difficult
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about my childhood and other sort of
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experiences that happened that that kind of
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come together to make me make me who I am
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now. And again, it kind of makes sense
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that I'd be a little bit a little bit
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messed up after all of that. And, you know,
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I was I was self medicating in a way. And
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then I had just had this really, like,
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pretty objectively, let's say traumatizing
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experience with my with my ex attacking
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me. And, you know, I think that's like a
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totally fine reason for someone who is
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homeless to continue using drugs. And in
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that stretch, I just felt so clear
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within myself that I was using just to
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cope with this traumatic experience
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because I had nothing better to rely on
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and that I was going to stop when I
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was done. And it just and I just had
11:12
this conflict. I just knew that that
11:13
was going to be the case. And, and, and
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it just felt different. It didn't feel
11:19
like this life sentence, like using
11:20
drugs had felt like for the rest of my
11:21
life. It was like, no, this is the best
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I could do. And, you know, it really
11:25
is the best I could do. And that's
11:26
okay. And then as soon as I don't need
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anymore, I'm going to stop. And then I
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think repeated moments of like having
11:30
this forgiveness for myself, and and
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sort of trusting my future self and
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then the future self actually going
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ahead. And yes, we did stop after,
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you know, after sort of got a few
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other things sorted, really sort of
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building up a lot more confidence in
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my intuitions.
11:44
Oh, wow, Brooke. That's just so
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amazing. Like what I'm hearing in what
11:49
you just shared apart from the actual
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experience of it, which must have been
11:53
horrible, is intuition. Like that,
11:57
that higher intelligent part of you,
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whatever we call it, right? As I've
12:04
learned, it's always speaking to us.
12:05
But when we're busy in our mind,
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when we're busy, well, when we're
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busy, physically, we're probably
12:11
busy mentally, but we can't hear it.
12:15
And sometimes it takes that an
12:17
aftermath of almost intensity to
12:22
stop. And another thought will pop
12:25
up, you know, and I just think it's
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so fabulous that some part of you,
12:30
your future self, you know, said to
12:33
you, this isn't forever. And, and
12:36
there was a part of you that accepted
12:39
it as true. It was kind of like you
12:43
aligned with a part of you that you
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hadn't been able to access before.
12:49
Would that be fair?
12:50
Yes, absolutely.
12:52
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, you know,
12:56
that's one of the things that, that
12:59
I spoke of when I first started this
13:00
podcast was, was about the the
13:03
importance of, of pausing. Like, you
13:07
know, sometimes it's hard in the
13:09
middle of a, of an anxious moment
13:11
in the middle of a stressful
13:13
situation to, to be able to just
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stop. So when we can practice it,
13:21
when it's possible, I'm just, I'm
13:23
just saying this for anyone that's
13:25
listening, that, that if we can
13:28
practice a behave, a helpful
13:30
behavior regularly, then when
13:37
something happens, it's more
13:40
familiar. It's more something
13:42
that we've experienced before. And
13:47
but you know, so that part for you,
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it seems to me that you were able
13:53
to go, yeah, this is not, this is
13:56
not the end for me. This is not
13:58
going to be the, this is not what
14:01
my, my life will, will be in
14:03
total.
14:05
Yeah, yeah. And there was also, I
14:07
think my, my sort of journey on
14:09
the street, in particular, was one
14:11
of, of learning to connect with
14:13
my intuitions in a way that I
14:14
hadn't in a very long time. When
14:17
I, when I, you know, my, my
14:20
mother and I had a lot of
14:21
conflict growing up. And part of
14:22
that was, I felt like she cares
14:24
a lot about external indicators
14:25
of success. And I care a lot
14:26
about internal. And I think that
14:28
created a lot of a lot of
14:29
tension, because we were kind of
14:30
driven by different things. And,
14:33
and that's sort of how I ended
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up dating this man who turned out
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to be quite violent was because he
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externally sort of, you know,
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he was very handsome, dressed
14:41
well, he was, he was here on a
14:43
student visa from Iran, and he
14:44
worked long hours, and he was
14:46
going to school. And he seemed to
14:47
outwardly have his life
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together in a bunch of ways that
14:49
I didn't at the time.
14:51
Internally, he was, he was
14:52
immediately just, it was clear
14:54
that he was not a good person.
14:55
But at the time, you know, I
14:57
had had this sort of, you know,
14:59
reckoning when I got on the
14:59
street, and I realized some of my
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intuitions were wrong, I just
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didn't know which ones. And so
15:04
all of them were kind of equally
15:05
suspect in my mind. And so I
15:07
met him and I was like, well,
15:08
maybe, maybe my mom is right.
15:09
Maybe, maybe what's in here
15:11
doesn't really matter. And I've
15:12
been kind of like, leading
15:14
myself astray by seeking out,
15:16
you know, greater sort of, I
15:18
don't know what words you want
15:18
to use for a spiritual
15:19
attainment or however you want
15:21
to describe it, deeper meaning
15:22
in life. And so I decided to
15:24
date this guy. And one of the
15:27
things that I also realized
15:29
after the end of this
15:29
relationship is not that my
15:31
intuitions were wrong, is
15:32
that I wasn't trusting them
15:33
enough. And there was so you
15:34
know, a lot of times I think
15:36
it is true that people can
15:37
come out of situations like
15:38
that relationship and say
15:40
like, I just didn't see it
15:41
coming. You know, there were
15:42
no signs, I cannot say that,
15:43
you know, I don't know, I can
15:45
say that I didn't know
15:46
exactly that was coming. But
15:47
there were so many moments
15:48
where he would say something
15:50
and I would just be like,
15:51
that's a weird thing. And
15:53
then I would just not change
15:54
my behavior at all. So that
15:57
was one of my one of my big
15:58
practices that I got off the
15:59
street is like watching for
16:00
those little voices and it
16:02
still has taken I run into
16:03
I get this wrong a lot.
16:05
Still, not as much as I used
16:06
to. Every once in a while
16:09
something will go wrong and
16:10
I'll look back and be like,
16:10
I noticed this weird thing.
16:12
I should have put more
16:13
import on this weird thing.
16:15
My intuitions are constantly
16:16
feeding me information about
16:17
the world. And I just my
16:20
self esteem was too low. Or
16:22
or, you know, maybe my
16:24
insides were too noisy
16:25
with trying to force
16:27
myself to be someone that
16:28
I wasn't really, that I
16:30
just didn't have I didn't
16:32
pay enough attention to them.
16:33
So that was that was a big
16:35
part of it.
16:36
Yeah. So how would you say
16:38
Brooke that you moved out
16:41
of that? I don't know if
16:44
cycle is is the right word,
16:45
but after homelessness, how
16:47
did that happen for you?
16:51
Well, so I early on in that
16:55
relationship, I we had a
16:57
moment where I realized
16:58
this, you know, he told me
17:00
about this, I'll go a
17:01
little bit of detail. I
17:01
let me over get it close to
17:03
time here. But he told me
17:04
about this girl. They had
17:05
this really intense crush
17:06
on kind of from a distance.
17:07
He didn't really talk to
17:08
her much. And and he
17:10
expressed his feelings,
17:11
you know, confess his
17:12
feelings. And she either
17:13
didn't reply or responded
17:15
flippantly. And he had
17:16
going out to a bar with
17:17
some friends and they kept
17:18
just being like, you know,
17:19
she's a crush, he'll get
17:20
over it. And he was so
17:21
depressing to be around.
17:22
They ditched him. He
17:23
ended up going out on
17:24
the streets and waking
17:24
up in the hospital
17:25
because he'd smoked two
17:26
packs of cigarettes and
17:27
had a heart attack. And
17:28
he was young. He was
17:29
like early 20s. And early
17:31
maybe 19 at the time this
17:33
happened or something. And
17:34
at the time, instead of
17:36
being like, wow, heart
17:37
attack that young and
17:38
like, you know, this is
17:40
this is kind of an
17:40
obsessive thing. He
17:41
didn't really know her
17:42
that well, instead of
17:42
being like, wow, that's
17:43
kind of a red flag. I
17:45
was I felt, you know,
17:47
like, maybe I should
17:48
take care of this person.
17:49
You know, I had an
17:49
unrequited crush back in
17:50
high school and I got
17:51
over it. It turned out
17:53
later that that he'd
17:54
likely tried to put
17:55
tracking devices on her
17:56
car. This was not, this
17:58
is not your typical
18:00
unrequited high school
18:00
situation. But I didn't
18:02
know that at the time, at
18:03
the time, I just I was I
18:05
just told myself, you
18:05
know, I have all this
18:06
trauma from from, you
18:07
know, the past year or
18:08
so on the street that I
18:09
will deal with, but not
18:10
right now. Right now,
18:11
this person needs me. And
18:12
so within the span of a
18:13
couple of weeks while
18:14
dating this person, I
18:15
stopped using, I got a
18:17
couple of jobs. I was
18:19
like, I turned myself
18:20
into the person that I
18:21
thought he needed me to
18:22
be, you know, I just
18:23
like, I gotta, I gotta,
18:23
I gotta stop being
18:24
immature, I gotta get my
18:25
shit together for this
18:26
person. And they of
18:29
course, that doesn't
18:29
work. You know, if
18:30
somebody's being mean to
18:31
you, they're not gonna
18:32
stop being mean to you
18:32
just because you change
18:33
the things that they are
18:34
criticizing. But because
18:38
I had just been able to
18:40
change so much about my
18:42
life that rapidly, I
18:43
realized coming out of
18:44
it, that if I could do
18:46
it for somebody else, I
18:47
could do it for me. And
18:48
and I think that was
18:49
like a big part of of
18:51
that, that that the
18:52
happiness switch flipping.
18:55
And another, I think
18:56
important thread here,
18:57
you know, because
18:57
there are many, many
18:58
threads, but I had
18:59
always sort of looked
19:00
down on people who
19:01
claimed to be happy. I
19:03
was never somebody who
19:04
described myself as
19:05
happy. I thought if you
19:06
were really happy, you
19:06
were either naive or you
19:08
were lying. And I, yeah,
19:10
I thought it was just not
19:12
a noble pursuit in life.
19:14
You know, you were
19:14
supposed to be smart or
19:15
you were supposed to be
19:16
a martyr or you're
19:17
supposed to be all these
19:18
other things. And it was
19:20
just sort of, you know,
19:21
I looked down on it.
19:22
And, and after this,
19:24
this sort of switch
19:24
flipped, I found myself
19:26
just even more
19:28
homeless. And it's
19:29
funny, I look at those
19:29
Maslov's hierarchy of
19:31
needs now, because I sort
19:33
of solved my shit and
19:34
wow, excuse me, I don't
19:35
know if you're
19:36
language. Yeah. But I
19:39
sort of like found
19:39
happiness while homeless.
19:42
I would go around and I
19:43
would set little quests
19:44
for myself with dumpsters
19:45
because I did a lot of
19:46
dumpster diving and I
19:47
would try to like put
19:48
together a snack out of
19:49
just the things I found
19:50
in the next two dumpsters
19:51
or I would make up
19:51
stories about people
19:53
whose trash I found or,
19:55
you know, I have a
19:56
story about a, there's
19:58
this, that demon that I
19:59
knew. And I found a
20:00
shopping cart one day
20:01
and I'd had these little
20:02
magnetic butterflies whose
20:04
wings flapped in the wings
20:05
and I, I stuck them all
20:06
over shopping cart. And
20:07
I just, you know, I
20:08
listened to a lot of
20:09
music and I, and I, you
20:10
know, things were hard
20:11
things happened. That was
20:12
not the end of my
20:13
difficult time on the
20:14
street. But that was me
20:16
learning to get in touch
20:17
with my intuitions enough
20:18
to, to just follow the
20:20
light and joy and all of
20:22
that. And that was a
20:23
huge sort of backstory. If
20:26
you'd like me to tell
20:27
you exactly how I got
20:28
off the street, that's a
20:28
slightly different story.
20:30
Yeah, I'm so glad you did
20:31
share it, Brooke, really
20:33
cause, um, you know,
20:35
sometimes things happen
20:36
in our lives. They, they
20:38
look different, but, but
20:39
somehow on some level,
20:42
um, there, there's a
20:44
waking up. And what I
20:46
mean by that is so when
20:48
you found yourself
20:49
experiencing happiness,
20:50
this was after the
20:51
situation with the
20:52
boyfriend, right? Yeah.
20:54
Yeah. Okay. So what
20:55
you're saying is so
20:56
powerful, Brooke, in
20:57
terms of, um, I was
20:59
happy before I got off
21:01
the street, you know,
21:02
like, yeah, so many
21:03
people, you know, they're
21:05
looking for happiness in
21:06
a person. Um, they're
21:07
looking for happiness in
21:08
a job in a certain way
21:10
of, of life or all of
21:12
that stuff, the, the
21:13
external stuff and not
21:14
that external is bad,
21:15
but do we own it or does
21:17
it own us anyway?
21:20
But that, you know, I
21:22
don't know that, like,
21:25
how would you say, did
21:26
it, did it, did it feel,
21:29
I'm trying to find the
21:30
right words here, Brooke.
21:32
Um, because so many
21:34
people are, are, have a,
21:36
have a belief that you
21:38
can't be happy with
21:40
nothing else but yourself.
21:42
Yeah. But that's not
21:45
true. Would you say?
21:48
I mean, it was not true
21:49
for me. And I, and I,
21:51
and I look at, I have
21:51
some friends who, who
21:53
are maybe struggling to
21:54
find, to find that
21:55
sense of happiness in
21:56
their own lives. And, and
21:57
a couple of them, I, a
21:58
couple of them who I
21:59
feel like I've watched
22:00
struggle the longest are
22:01
also children, they're not
22:03
struggling anymore, but
22:04
they, they grew up with a
22:04
lot of money from their
22:05
parents. And I wonder,
22:07
you know, well, first
22:07
off, I probably would
22:08
have died of a drug
22:09
overdose had I had a
22:10
lot of money to play
22:11
with, but also I just
22:12
had no safety net. And
22:15
I, and I, I, I want to
22:17
build a world where we
22:18
have safety nets that
22:19
actually work. But I
22:20
also feel like in my
22:21
case, it was, it was
22:22
good, it was hard, but
22:24
I had to look around and
22:25
realize no one was
22:26
coming to save me. I had
22:28
to realize that if, if
22:29
anyone was going to
22:30
save me, it was going to
22:31
be me. And I think that
22:32
was, I think that was,
22:33
it was, you know, I
22:35
think it's rare in life
22:36
that we, I consider a
22:37
privilege to have gone
22:38
through what I did,
22:38
because I think it's
22:39
rare that we were
22:40
actually put in that,
22:41
in that position where
22:42
we, we have no other
22:43
option. We have to
22:44
save ourselves.
22:45
Yeah. I think what
22:46
you're saying again,
22:47
is so powerful, Brooke,
22:49
that we do need to
22:50
come to the place of,
22:52
of realizing that our
22:54
life experience is
22:56
actually an inside job. Do
22:58
you know what I'm
22:58
saying? No matter what's
23:00
going on on the outside,
23:02
but, but you know, how
23:03
am I perceiving it?
23:04
What am I making it
23:05
mean? What am I making
23:06
it mean about myself?
23:07
You know, that kind of
23:08
thing. And yet on the
23:09
other hand, you said
23:11
something about a safety
23:13
net at any point, like
23:15
that, that's another
23:16
thing I know for
23:17
myself, I used to think
23:20
because I felt alone a
23:22
lot. I used to think
23:24
that I needed to do
23:25
everything alone. Yeah.
23:28
And it wasn't until
23:30
even recently, in some
23:31
ways, that I came to
23:33
realize, Wendy, you
23:34
can't do everything alone.
23:36
Yes, you are responsible
23:37
for your, your
23:38
experience, but you
23:39
can't do everything
23:40
alone. And, and having
23:42
a safety net of people
23:44
that are like-minded and
23:49
positive living minded,
23:52
not just positive
23:52
thinking, and people that
23:55
have faith, like, like the
23:58
intuition that you had
23:59
that says, this, this
24:00
isn't the end, Brooke, you
24:02
know, there's more for
24:03
you. And what do you
24:06
think about a safety
24:08
net in terms of moving
24:09
forward in, in one's
24:11
life, where it's been
24:11
quite challenged?
24:13
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
24:14
That's, I would say
24:15
that's a, another
24:17
thread or two of what
24:19
kind of came together to
24:20
maybe the person I am
24:21
now, this is a little
24:22
bit tangential, but I
24:23
remember having a moment
24:25
when I got off the
24:26
street of thinking back
24:27
to, I lived in LA for a
24:28
number of years before I
24:29
became homeless. And, and
24:31
I was just one of those
24:32
people who said, it's
24:32
just hard to make friends
24:33
in LA. And, you know, I
24:34
was friends with, you
24:35
know, I was my long
24:36
term partner then. And
24:37
then we had a couple
24:38
friends, board gaming
24:40
friends and like friends
24:41
will work. And that's
24:41
about it. I, in
24:43
retrospect, when I
24:43
look back, I was like,
24:44
I was not going to
24:45
meetups. I was not
24:46
trying to find people
24:47
with similar interests with
24:48
me. I was not just
24:49
like giving my contact
24:50
info to, to random
24:52
cool people I found on
24:53
the street. And I think
24:54
one of the things that
24:54
made doing all of that
24:56
and more easier when I
24:57
got off the street is
24:58
that my risk
24:58
calculation changed a
24:59
lot. When you've
25:00
really been confronted
25:02
with like life or
25:02
death situations,
25:04
suddenly like giving
25:05
your contact info to
25:06
somebody who silently
25:07
rejects you by never
25:08
reaching out is not
25:09
that scary. And I
25:11
started this, this,
25:12
this internet
25:12
festival that we've
25:14
been running for a
25:14
number of years now. And
25:15
I don't think, I
25:16
don't think that's
25:16
something I would have
25:16
done before out of, out
25:18
of fear, but thinking
25:19
about it, like, am I
25:20
going to die? Or am I
25:21
risking getting
25:22
embarrassed on the
25:23
internet? And, and, and
25:27
so anyway, I sort of
25:29
digress a little bit
25:30
there. But yes, I think
25:32
that I was, I was
25:32
toxically independent a
25:34
lot of my life. And I
25:35
wasn't really sharing
25:36
some of my deeper
25:37
struggles with people
25:38
and, and coming out of
25:40
all of that, I know
25:41
that I'm never going
25:42
to go back there
25:43
because I've learned
25:44
so much. And one of
25:45
the things that I have
25:46
learned is how to, how
25:47
to be a productive and
25:48
contributing member of
25:50
any social group that
25:51
I'm in, which means
25:52
that I don't, you know,
25:53
if I ever do suddenly,
25:55
you know, some
25:55
emergency happens, I'm
25:56
very out of money,
25:56
people, people will
25:57
help me. If I need a
25:58
place to stay, people
25:59
will help me because I
26:02
live my life in such a
26:03
way now that I tend
26:04
to, or I believe I give,
26:07
give as much value to
26:09
the people in my, in
26:10
my social groups as I
26:12
get from them.
26:13
Yeah, absolutely.
26:14
Yeah. And I look
26:16
forward to in a little
26:17
bit talking more about
26:18
this, this endeavor that
26:20
you are involved in.
26:22
First of all, in terms
26:24
of moving forward, for
26:27
anyone that's moving
26:29
through something that
26:30
yeah, either is an
26:31
addiction, feels like an
26:32
addiction, whatever it
26:33
is. I love that you
26:35
mentioned about somatic,
26:37
emotional awareness. Can
26:39
you tell me a bit about
26:40
that and how that
26:41
supports you?
26:44
Yeah, I mean, I sort of,
26:45
sort of danced around
26:46
it a little bit already
26:48
with talking about, about
26:49
how much I'd been
26:50
suppressing my own
26:52
stress and anxiety and
26:53
things like that. And I,
26:54
I don't think that we can
26:55
know what we really need
26:56
as long as we are
26:58
refusing to allow
27:00
ourselves to, to really
27:01
feel those, those
27:02
emotions. I remember
27:08
going, I saw a
27:10
psychiatrist once in high
27:11
school for one session
27:12
and, and, uh, he told
27:15
me, I don't know if
27:16
this is an official
27:16
diagnosis, but he said
27:17
something about chronic
27:18
generalized anxiety
27:19
disorders and then that
27:20
night I was like, what do
27:22
you know? But, but during
27:23
that conversation, he was
27:24
asking me questions about
27:25
my, my relationship with
27:26
my mother. And I
27:27
remember one of them, he
27:27
was just that, how does
27:29
that make you feel? And
27:29
I said, angry, he's
27:30
like, no, how does that
27:31
make you feel? And I was
27:31
like, mad. And he kept
27:33
coming up with, you
27:34
know, finally he was
27:35
like, wait, wait, so
27:36
when people use these
27:38
words, they're often,
27:39
you know, they're,
27:40
they're supposed to
27:41
really reflect an inner
27:43
feeling, you know, you
27:44
know, often people will
27:45
feel tightness in their
27:46
chest or flushing in
27:47
their face. So like, what
27:48
is, what do you, I was
27:49
18 when, when it first
27:51
even occurred to me that
27:52
that emotions weren't
27:53
just like words you used
27:55
sometimes, you know, and
27:57
it's, I think it's a, I'm
27:58
hoping maybe schools are
28:00
better at that now, but
28:01
I, you know, that was
28:02
just such a missing part
28:03
of my, my literacy as a
28:05
child, I just had no
28:06
idea that there were
28:07
things going on in the
28:08
body and you could kind
28:09
of like, watch them and
28:10
learn about yourself. And
28:11
how are we supposed to
28:12
develop lives that we
28:14
fit well with if we
28:15
don't know what's going
28:16
on in here and we
28:16
don't know what makes
28:17
us happy or what makes
28:18
us anxious. I think
28:20
that's, I think that's a
28:21
lot of what got me into
28:22
trouble as an adult is
28:23
just not, not having
28:25
access to those things.
28:28
And it was that person
28:29
that kind of helped you
28:30
learn more about that in
28:32
yourself or did you find
28:34
it elsewhere as well?
28:36
I don't think that I
28:37
really started getting
28:38
attached with my emotions
28:39
until like age 30. I
28:41
think this is the end of
28:43
being homeless when I
28:44
think that's what got
28:45
me out of all of it is
28:46
starting to learn how
28:47
to do that. Yeah. But I
28:49
also think like, it's
28:51
possible that, you know,
28:54
what I was feeling was
28:55
too strong for me to
28:56
handle, maybe with the
28:57
right therapist, that
28:59
might have happened
28:59
sooner. But I also think
29:00
maybe heroin helps put
29:02
off those emotions
29:03
until, until I was ready
29:05
to face them.
29:06
Yeah. Yeah. I hear you.
29:08
Yeah. Okay. The next
29:12
area that you
29:13
mentioned is something
29:16
that you find, not just
29:19
interesting, but probably
29:20
helpful, but overcoming
29:21
shame, Brooke, what would
29:23
you say about that?
29:25
Yeah, that was another
29:26
really surprising thing to
29:27
me that just, you know,
29:29
this is just my own
29:30
observations. I could be
29:32
wrong about some of this,
29:33
but that was one of the
29:34
strongest through lines in
29:37
the other people that I
29:38
met when homeless. There
29:39
was just deep, deep
29:40
sense of shame. People
29:41
were ashamed of their
29:42
sexuality or their gender.
29:44
Lots of people who are
29:45
closeted, people, you
29:47
know, it just, it just felt
29:48
really, really
29:50
pervasive. And, and I, and
29:52
I noticed that in myself
29:53
as well, it was forgiving
29:55
myself for needing drugs
29:57
in order to be a human.
29:58
And that was what allowed
29:59
me to feel okay enough to
30:01
stop using them in the
30:02
first place. So I think,
30:04
I think to some extent,
30:06
you know, it's, and it's
30:08
very, very hard to say
30:08
just forgive yourself. It's
30:10
it's sort of one of those
30:11
things that it's simple,
30:12
but complex, difficult,
30:14
maybe. But that was, I
30:16
don't think that I would
30:17
have been able to recover
30:19
in the way that I did, had
30:20
I not had that moment of
30:22
just really deep
30:22
acceptance that like, yes,
30:24
I have been using a lot
30:25
of drugs, but like, that's
30:26
that's the best I could
30:27
do. And that's okay.
30:28
That's really interesting,
30:30
Brooke. So what I'm
30:32
hearing, and correct me
30:33
if I misunderstood that
30:35
shame is overcome with
30:37
self forgiveness, like
30:38
self acceptance, pardon
30:40
me, self acceptance, and
30:41
which may help with
30:43
self forgiveness. Am I
30:44
understanding correctly?
30:46
I think so. I think that
30:47
I can't think of a better
30:49
okay, no, I love it, you
30:51
know, because shame, it
30:53
kind of shame is this
30:54
blanket, right? Like it's
30:57
you know, what the word
30:58
means, like you were
30:59
saying before, but what's
31:01
the actual, well, you can
31:02
know some of the feeling,
31:03
but but how do I
31:05
overcome shame? It's
31:06
kind of like, where do
31:07
I start? I don't know,
31:09
you know, and I think that
31:10
self acceptance, I love
31:12
that. I think that that's
31:13
so great. And, and of
31:15
course, self forgiveness.
31:17
Wow. Okay. And, and the
31:21
final area where you
31:22
mentioned and you have
31:23
spoken about happiness
31:24
already, but, but finding
31:26
happiness. Is there anything
31:28
more you want to say about
31:30
that?
31:31
Maybe just a small note,
31:35
maybe that I think it's,
31:37
I think it's also a
31:38
little bit deceptive to
31:40
to and I use this phrasing
31:41
all the time. You know, I
31:42
think I probably wrote it
31:43
on your paper, finding
31:44
happiness because it's,
31:46
it's, I think happiness
31:47
is more of a symptom than
31:49
any, than like a stage
31:50
that we can seek. I
31:51
think it's, I think it
31:52
is what happens. It's
31:54
the way we feel when
31:55
we're living a life
31:56
that's really aligned with
31:57
our preferences and our
31:58
values and our desires
31:59
and all of that. I
32:00
think happiness is just
32:01
the natural outcome of
32:03
that. That being said,
32:05
there are ways to, to
32:07
start to learn how to do
32:08
that better. You know,
32:09
before when I was
32:11
judgmental and looked
32:12
down on people seeking
32:14
happiness and that, you
32:15
know, everybody has kind
32:16
of different words, joy,
32:17
delight, all these things.
32:19
Pleasure can be, it can
32:20
mean like the pleasure
32:20
you get from drug
32:21
hires, but it can also
32:22
mean it's kind of like
32:23
lots of language here.
32:24
But that was, that
32:26
judgment was preventing
32:27
me from doing things
32:28
just because they made
32:30
me feel good. You know,
32:34
we'll leave aside the
32:35
drug use conversation
32:36
because that was also to
32:38
feel good, but it was
32:38
sort of in a, anyway, it's
32:40
a complicated, but, you
32:42
know, just like going on
32:43
little adventures and
32:44
quests and, and really
32:47
working to build a life
32:48
that gives me a lot of
32:49
joy. You know, I was
32:50
working at restaurants,
32:51
most of my twenties. And,
32:53
and, and I, I think
32:54
somewhere deep down, I
32:55
knew I was capable of a
32:56
lot more, but I wasn't
32:59
prioritizing my own day
33:01
to day happiness enough.
33:02
Wow. What a great term
33:05
prioritizing my day to
33:06
day happiness, Brooke.
33:07
That's a mic drop right
33:09
there. No, that's yeah.
33:15
You know, and, and like
33:16
you said, you're, you're
33:18
doing things now that are
33:20
helping others be able to
33:22
move forward. So I'd love
33:23
to hear about this
33:24
venture that you are
33:26
involved in. Please,
33:27
please tell us.
33:28
Sure. Yeah. I run a, I
33:30
run a small festival
33:31
called Vibe Camp. It's
33:32
about 500 people. It
33:33
takes place every year in
33:34
June in Maryland, on
33:35
the East coast of the
33:36
US. And it sort of
33:38
started just to gather
33:39
together a bunch of
33:41
people who hung out in
33:42
the same part of
33:42
Twitter. There's not
33:44
really any, it's, it's,
33:47
I think that's
33:48
described as a collection
33:49
of people who share
33:49
similar values over
33:50
shared interests. It's
33:52
similar to Burning Man
33:54
in that we don't have
33:54
any keynote speakers or
33:57
like hired musical
33:58
acts, things like that.
33:59
The schedule is just
34:00
entirely brought by
34:01
attendees. We have a
34:02
little scheduling
34:03
platform. They can put
34:03
up whatever they want.
34:04
That has led to some
34:05
very weird things
34:07
showing up there. One
34:07
year, they did
34:09
recreational water
34:10
boarding, a hop up and
34:13
down, get sprayed by a
34:14
hose while you recite
34:15
poetry, that kind of
34:16
thing. But there's, you
34:17
know, there's a range
34:18
there, workshops and
34:18
talks and kind of the
34:19
more meditation
34:20
spiritual track or the
34:21
house party track. It's
34:23
just kind of choose
34:24
your own adventure. But
34:25
we're, we're going into
34:26
our sixth year now. We
34:27
actually just launched
34:27
ticket sales today. And
34:29
it's one of them. I was
34:31
just going through an
34:31
exit survey data, which
34:32
people can look at if
34:33
anybody listening is
34:34
interested. It's at
34:35
vibe.camp. It's on our
34:36
homepage, but are linked
34:39
from our homepage, I
34:40
should say, but I was
34:41
going through that and
34:41
just one thing that
34:42
people say every year in
34:43
the exit surveys, this
34:44
is the first place for
34:46
some of them that they
34:46
never really felt like
34:48
they belonged. You
34:49
know, it's a lot of
34:49
like, kind of like the
34:50
specific flavor of
34:51
weird nerd that just
34:53
wants to be nice to
34:54
friends and make friends
34:55
and all of that. And
34:57
always, you know, a
34:58
lot of people didn't
34:58
feel like they, yeah,
35:01
they really belonged in
35:02
their schools growing
35:02
up in their towns or
35:03
whatever. And some of
35:04
them have been able to
35:05
find that sense of
35:05
belonging at vibe camp.
35:06
And it's been, it's
35:07
been just really
35:08
incredible to, to be part
35:10
of this and to be
35:11
working on this with my
35:11
friends over the years.
35:13
Yeah, it's almost like,
35:15
like you were saying,
35:16
we were talking about
35:17
self-acceptance and, and
35:19
you know, which is
35:20
something we can only
35:22
give ourselves because
35:23
it's self-acceptance,
35:24
but to be in a group
35:25
where what you do to
35:28
express, whether it's
35:30
the, the water
35:31
boarding or whatever it
35:32
is, or whether it's
35:34
going and meditating or,
35:37
you know, workshop, every
35:38
part of it's okay,
35:39
because none of it is
35:42
hurting anyone. Do you
35:44
know what I mean? Water
35:45
boarding is not hurting
35:46
anyone, just like, if
35:47
you're careful, it's
35:49
actually kind of
35:49
difficult. They were very,
35:51
very careful. We had a
35:52
medic there and
35:52
everything. Yeah, yeah. I
35:54
wouldn't, I wouldn't
35:55
listen to this podcast
35:56
and go try it at home. I
35:57
have heard of this going
35:58
wrong. Okay, good point.
36:00
I've never heard of
36:01
water boarding. Is that
36:02
like surfing? Oh, oh,
36:04
no. So it's water
36:06
boarding is a, it's a,
36:07
it's a torture technique
36:08
famously used by like
36:10
Guantanamo. It's not a
36:12
pleasant thing, which is
36:13
why it's kind of shocking
36:14
to see it on the
36:14
schedule is like, oh,
36:15
we're going to do this
36:16
for fun. You put a rag
36:17
over somebody's face and
36:18
pour water on it. It's,
36:19
they were, I think
36:20
exploring their
36:21
relationships with
36:22
discomfort.
36:24
I know, I know, I know
36:25
what I want to say to
36:26
people listening. You
36:28
know, there's no limit.
36:30
If it makes you feel
36:31
good, you go ahead. No,
36:33
not that, not go ahead
36:34
and do that. But yeah,
36:35
you know, I only say
36:38
that because so many of
36:39
us do something because
36:41
we think we shouldn't or
36:42
we couldn't, I'm not
36:43
talking about danger or
36:45
not, you know, that kind
36:46
of thing. I'm talking
36:47
about, you know,
36:50
sometimes isn't it in
36:51
hindsight that we have
36:52
wisdom, you know, like
36:54
sometimes we'll do an
36:55
activity that really
36:56
tested our, um, our
36:59
courage, our
37:01
willingness to express
37:02
ourselves, uh, whatever
37:04
that is. And it's after
37:06
sometimes when you
37:07
realize, wow, you know, I,
37:11
I, I felt so badly about
37:14
myself that I could
37:15
never just do what I felt
37:17
like I needed to do at
37:18
the time and, and a safe
37:20
place, like, like the
37:21
networking, the safe
37:22
people, you know, to do
37:23
it in a place where it's
37:25
safe. Um, and I like what
37:27
you said, you know,
37:28
don't, don't, don't try
37:29
it at home or, or in the
37:31
backyard, whatever. Um,
37:33
but, um, yeah, so just
37:36
face to face, face to be
37:37
weird and to play and, uh,
37:39
you know, find, find
37:40
access to our inner
37:41
children again.
37:42
Yeah, exactly. And that
37:45
is so rare. I would say
37:47
I, you know, I, I find it
37:48
challenging myself, you
37:50
know, to playful has
37:52
never been something that
37:53
was responsible. Yeah.
37:56
Supposed to be responsible
37:57
and, uh, but now after all
38:01
these years, I'm
38:02
realizing that, that
38:03
self-care, self honesty,
38:06
self acceptance is
38:08
responsible, you know, not
38:11
being like, you know, you
38:12
were saying about, you
38:14
know, having to fall in
38:15
with the externalized
38:16
life, you know, that, you
38:18
know, that kind of
38:18
things. So, um, yeah,
38:22
that's, that's
38:23
amazing anyway. And six
38:25
years, that's incredible.
38:27
That obviously people are
38:28
getting a great benefit
38:29
from it.
38:31
And we just, we have such
38:32
a solid team. I'm so
38:34
excited. It's, it's
38:35
really, it, it is also
38:37
just deeply nourishing to
38:38
be involved with
38:39
something like this that
38:40
the people care about
38:41
enough to join in and
38:42
help. You know, we have
38:43
so many people who
38:44
volunteers so much time.
38:46
Um, and we actually are
38:47
starting to pay people a
38:48
little bit. Uh, well,
38:49
we've been paying a
38:50
couple of people, but
38:51
now we're paying six
38:52
people, some of them, not
38:53
a lot, but, uh, well,
38:54
most of them, none of
38:55
us are a lot, but, uh,
38:57
it's just been incredible
38:58
to watch this grow. And
38:59
it was just, you know, it
39:00
was just part of that
39:01
process of following
39:02
delight. I was, I was
39:03
like, I was taking a, a
39:05
machining class at the
39:06
time. And I was
39:07
tweeting about this
39:08
idea and that idea. And
39:09
I was just, I was
39:10
throwing darts. I was
39:10
like, this would be
39:11
fun. What do you guys
39:11
think of that? Well,
39:12
this would be fun. What
39:13
do you think of that? And
39:13
this one just happened
39:15
to strike a chord and
39:17
you know, six years
39:17
later, we're still
39:18
working on it.
39:19
Yeah. Well, would you
39:20
say the largest, um,
39:24
what's the word I'm
39:24
looking for a number of
39:26
people that attend
39:27
certain activities? Is
39:28
there such a thing? Like
39:29
is there sort of like a
39:31
tendency toward that
39:32
kind of a festival that
39:33
people are, are looking
39:35
for or like each
39:36
activity is kind of like
39:38
eat, you know, um, like
39:40
do more people go to
39:41
workshops or meditate
39:42
or? Oh, actually, I
39:46
don't know. Uh, we had
39:48
a, somebody did a, a
39:50
midnight mass last year
39:51
that I heard had had
39:53
80 or a hundred people
39:54
at it. I might be making
39:55
that up, but I heard it
39:56
was just a ton of people
39:58
showed up for that,
39:58
which was, which was
39:59
cool. Um, yeah, I don't
40:02
know. I think the, I
40:04
would, I would have a
40:04
hard time, but it's a
40:05
big range. Okay. Yeah,
40:07
that's okay, Brooke. But
40:08
obviously there's
40:09
something for everyone.
40:10
Yeah. So if, if people
40:12
want to find out more
40:13
about it, um, uh, remind
40:16
me of that, um, the
40:18
website again,
40:19
website for the event
40:20
is vibe.camp vibe.camp.
40:23
And is that there's no
40:25
dot com. It's just vibe
40:27
dot camp. Okay.
40:29
Newfangled ones.
40:30
Yeah. Cool. Okay, my
40:34
dear. So Brooke, I'm
40:35
wondering if you could
40:36
have any final words
40:37
that, that you'd like to
40:39
share with people in
40:40
terms of either
40:42
recovery, something,
40:43
whatever it is. I don't
40:44
want to put thoughts in
40:45
your mind. What would
40:46
you like people to take
40:47
home from this, this
40:49
call?
40:50
Oh my gosh, I guess I
40:51
should have thought
40:52
about this in advance.
40:55
Yeah. Um, you know, I,
40:57
one of the other things
40:58
that I, that I, uh,
41:00
phrase that could
41:01
across my mind, sort of
41:02
in the recovery process
41:03
that really resonated
41:04
a lot with me was like,
41:04
I am my only enemy. You
41:06
know, um, I don't, it
41:09
gets a little bit dicey
41:10
because it gets close to
41:11
victim blaming and that
41:11
kind of thing. Um, and
41:13
I, you know, I, uh, the
41:14
people who have done
41:16
harm to me are, are
41:17
should be held
41:17
accountable for the
41:18
things that they have
41:19
done. That being said,
41:20
I, it was in my
41:22
power all along to
41:23
start making better
41:24
decisions for my life.
41:25
And I'm not saying I
41:26
deserved any of the bad
41:27
stuff that happened to
41:27
me, but I was
41:29
definitely, you know, uh,
41:30
I was, I was asked as
41:32
acting in like risk
41:32
seeking ways. And I
41:34
was not good about
41:35
watching for, there are
41:36
patterns with people who
41:37
are, who are likely to
41:38
hurt you. Uh, those are
41:39
things that you can
41:40
learn and often your
41:41
body knows it and you
41:42
just need to be able
41:43
to pay attention to
41:44
that more. Um, but
41:46
with everything from
41:48
like, you know,
41:48
chronic lateness and
41:50
procrastination and all
41:51
these things that we're
41:52
getting on my, in my
41:53
way, like that was all,
41:54
that was all stuff that
41:55
I had the power to
41:56
work on, whether it's
41:57
building systems or was
41:58
like actually learning
41:58
why I'm procrastinating
42:00
or why I'm late to
42:00
everything, why I'm
42:01
staying up late at
42:02
night. Like I'm a
42:03
morning person now. I
42:04
used to never be a
42:05
morning person. All of
42:06
these things were just,
42:07
it was just a matter of,
42:09
of getting better access
42:11
to, to what I really
42:13
wanted and figuring out
42:14
why, why I was really
42:15
doing the things that
42:16
I was doing.
42:17
Yeah. Wow. Such a
42:18
powerful message, Brooke,
42:20
really powerful. I'm so
42:21
grateful to have had you
42:22
on the call.
42:28
Who knows our pass
42:30
me across again, my
42:31
dear.
42:32
Oh, yes, of course. I
42:33
would love that.
42:34
Thanks so much.
42:35
And all the best, all
42:36
the best to you, Brooke.
42:37
Yes, you too. That's a
42:38
lovely podcast.
42:39
Okay. Thank you.