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SMNTY Classics: Hollywood's Toxic Treatment of Women · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is any and SMITHA and welcome to Stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I Never Told You Production of iHeartRadio. And as this
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: comes out, this classic, it is the new year. We
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: know there's a lot of problematic messaging, especially towards women
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: in the new year. And also we just did what
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: I call a New Year's movie, The Substance, on this show,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: and so I thought it would be good to bring
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: back the classic we did on Hollywood's toxic treatment of
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: women because it relates to that, and also I think
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: a lot of us can relate to it because in
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: the New Year, they're just bombarded. We're just bombarded with
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: messages that are not helpful, not great, and don't make
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: you feel good. So please enjoy this classic episode. Hey,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephan Never
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Told You Production of iHeart Radio.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, and welcome to today's episode. And Annie, I'm going to
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: go ahead and start off with a question. Are you ready?
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: I hope? So, yeah, I.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Hope you are too. Here we go.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: So, Annie, you are in the world of acting your nectar,
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: and so that makes me ask when you were growing up,
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: was it something that you wanted to do? A and
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: B if so who if you had any were some
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: of the actresses that you looked up to.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Well, good question. I have always wanted to act, but
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I also suffer from a pretty strong anxiety, performance anxiety,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: and shyness, so I was really bad at it. I'll
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: just be honest with you, like every now and then, Yeah,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: if I could get past those nerves, then it would
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: be great. But usually I'd be up there like four
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: years old, like oh, like shaking, visibly shaking, and so
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: it was a strange thing that I dreaded, Anne loved.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: And I have some performances I look back on and
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: they gave me great shame. They heat my cheeks with shame.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: I have auditions that I'm like, please, for the love
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: of everything, I hope this never gets out because it's terrible.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: I have a panic attack in the middle of one,
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  Speaker 1: like whoo. I hurt myself during performance once because my
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: character like fell asleep. She was supposed to fall asleep
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: in the middle, and I just like slammed my head
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: on the table and it was supposed to be funny,
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  Speaker 1: and I just remember everyone in the auditor and going ooo.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, we got a word.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: And I had a huge bruise on my face like
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: it was bad. Oh no, So I have been doing
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: it since I was probably, and I like to think
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: I've gotten better, but it is still a source of
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: nerves for me. I was very imaginative and I liked
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: coming up with scenarios and I like pretending. So I
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: think that was part of it. And it's interesting for
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: this topic that we're talking about today and for the
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: conversation we had with Eves recently in her last femal
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  Speaker 1: first we did, I didn't really the attention was not
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: the thing I wanted, right, So even like that is
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: a huge part of performance, I just wanted to like
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: pretend and act the like people looking at me part No, right, yes,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: but I did also interesting for this conversation, I did
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: look up to a number of actresses, and Natalie Portman
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: was a big one. After Phantom Menace came out, I
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: was big. I was like, oh, I want to be
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: like her. Oddly enough Scarlett Johansson. But I saw her
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: in Hole in three, which was a movie I loved,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: and I will admit it, I love it.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: That's amazing to say oractophobia. I'm not gonna lie.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: No. I did watch that though, because David ar Kett
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: was in it. I had a crush on David ar Kidd.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: No freaks, I'm mixing it up. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, Mary, Kate,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Ashley Olsen. Uh. That was. They were big for me,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: as you know, I was in their fan club and
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: I watched all their stuff.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, I think those were.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I'm sure And forgetting other people, but those I think
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Natalie Portman was my biggest and in terms of like
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: an actor that I was like, right, yes, right.
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  Speaker 2: I love it.
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  Speaker 3: Well, you know, I was thinking about all of this
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  Speaker 3: and I forgot until my niece who I just saw recently,
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  Speaker 3: who is in a senior in high school and a
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: part of drama, reminded me that I am a part
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: of the International Thespian Society, and I was like, oh yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I actually did qualify for that, didn't I? Because I
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: was also in drama and I really loved it. And
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: when I tell you I have some really horrible moments,
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: I have some really horrible moments because, as you know,
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: my work at needs to push sometimes I like to
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: work on the edge, and I am one of those
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  Speaker 3: that has to do it last minute or it's not
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  Speaker 3: gonna be good. And it's gonna be all over the place,
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: which is funny because it's already kind of all over
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: the place, but it would be way worse in way
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: in advance, and I did that way with my auditions,
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: and that did not turn out so well, because middle
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: rizes are not lines like ten minutes of dialogue the
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: night before. Almost impossible, it's true, almost impossible unless you
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: have one of those identic memories, and I do not.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: I do not, So I did do this on stage.
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  Speaker 2: I actually thought I was going to be an actor too.
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  Speaker 3: Of course, the reality of it was I was a
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: chubby Asian girl, and there's no way in hell I've
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: not seen many chubby Asian girls in general, unless they
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: are kind of the caricature stereotypical characters, and I would
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: never I didn't want that necessarily, although I do enjoy
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: being funny, so hoping like, the only way I want
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  Speaker 3: attention is that I'm making people laugh and then I
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: run away and hope they're not laughing at me.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: But yeah, actually I was thinking about that.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, I actually know a little
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: bit about this world, a little bit. And I say
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: this in the high school level of a little bit
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: as you know, my acting needs work.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: But why am I talking about all of this?
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: When it comes to celebrities, we are fascinated, and y'all,
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: I am fascinated. I will do a deep dive about
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: who is connected to whom and how they all know
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: each other. I love playing the third degrees to Kevin Bacon,
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: to Gavin Bacon.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: If I can, which I never really relate to Kevin.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Bacon, but go to a third degree food degrees? What
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: is it? Sixth degrees of Kevin Bacon?
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  Speaker 3: Kevin, I didn't even get it right that way degree
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  Speaker 3: You want to be accurate.
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  Speaker 2: You know what? He was on the Hot Ones.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: The other day and I was like I am anyway. So,
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: whether it's the projects they're in or about their personal lives,
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: we get invested. I really get invested, so much so
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: that it seems that their lives become public property. More
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: and more conversations have sparked with different controversial topics specific
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: to women and female celebrities and for those whose careers
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: start at an early age even more so so. Today,
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: we wanted to look at what is happening with Hollywood,
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: especially when it comes to the young ladies. So before
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: we start I feel like we need to do some
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: history right because this is what we do. And I've
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: talked a lot about the fact that I feel like
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: I'm lacking a little bit in my life when it
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: comes to hobbies and interests.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: I just kind of gave up on a lot of things.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: But I realized as we were researching this topic, there
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: are so many realizations. I was like, oh, yeah, that
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: I was really into old school Hollywood, Like I have
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: a lot of trivia knowledge as well as some interesting facts,
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  Speaker 3: and like I've seen the most.
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  Speaker 2: Obscure old old movies which you're going to hear me
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  Speaker 2: reference and is interesting. But I being like old school,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: I loved music. And I know I've talked about this with.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: Eaves actually on here because we both really like musicals,
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: and we'll talk about, hey, have you've seen this, which
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: she gave me one and in the move it's somewhere
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: in my stuff. I need to find it. And I
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  Speaker 3: didn't watch it because it's supposed to be a delight
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  Speaker 3: in And yes, I mean loved so much so that
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  Speaker 3: my mother would always say that I should have been
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: born in the forties, which I always countered with the
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: fact that my Korean self would have never been welcomed
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  Speaker 3: in the US, much less in Hollywood.
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  Speaker 2: So you know, there's that.
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  Speaker 3: But alas, I loved it, loved it so much that
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: I would watch documentaries about different movie stars and movies.
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  Speaker 3: And also in my mind, I just knew I could
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: time travel to meet them, like I had these fantasies
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: one day, time traveling to meet these people, which would
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: have been a horrible mistake because a lot of people
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  Speaker 3: were awful people. But when it came down to the reality, well,
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  Speaker 3: it was ugly. And the more I learned, I think
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  Speaker 3: the more we realized how awful it must have been
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  Speaker 3: for a lot of them, especially the women, especially young women.
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  Speaker 3: I guess here we should go ahead and let you
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  Speaker 3: know that we are going to talk a bit about
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  Speaker 3: some of the trauma and traumatic experiences of many of
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  Speaker 3: these stars, including abuse, eating disorder, sexualization of a young girls,
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  Speaker 3: and the such. So, even though we're not going to
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  Speaker 3: go too heavily into the deep deep, we are going
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  Speaker 3: to talk about why this can be ugly.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is no longer a secret that the
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  Speaker 1: movie industry was not all glitz and glamour, especially for
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  Speaker 1: young women. If you read memoirs and and biographies on
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: past stars like Judy Garland, Elizabeth Taylor, Shirley Temple, I
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  Speaker 1: would add Carrie Fisher, and so many more. We saw
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  Speaker 1: all this abuse that young stars went through, how they
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: were treated as property less than human. Horror stories after
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  Speaker 1: horror stories of abuse and harassment haunted the old movies
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  Speaker 1: that so many of us a door. Garland told the
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: story being so medicated that she wasn't able to come
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  Speaker 1: to set on time and being hospitalized thanks to studio
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  Speaker 1: execs and even her own mother who push sure beyond
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: her sanity and her health to become a perfect young starlet.
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  Speaker 1: The overall pressure on the young stars was detrimental and
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: was coming from all sides, including Yes family, and oftentimes
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  Speaker 1: the stars were the breadwinners of the family. Even America's
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: sweetheart Shirley Temple, who I also did love, Yes, talked
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: about the overwhelming moments of not wanting to disappoint her
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: mother and even her father. Elizabeth Taylor, though she seemed
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: to have a better relationship with her parents, still knew
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: she had to keep going for them and even for
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: her fans. In her biography, her mother was quoted to
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: have said, but you're not a regular child, and thank
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: God for that. You have a responsibility, Elizabeth, not just
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: to this family, but to the country now and the
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: whole world.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Right And honestly, it doesn't seem like it's changed much.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: I think there's a little more awareness and we try
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: a little see what's happening.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: But when it comes to the expectations place on young stars,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: the responsibility of building a fandom and building a persona
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: and helping provide for their families, it's still there were
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: young girls. The fine line between infantilizing and sexualizing causes
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: even more emotional and physical stress, which has been around
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: from the beginning of time when it comes to Hollywood
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: celebrities and celebrities in general.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: In the early memoirs of these classic Hollywood.
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  Speaker 3: Stars, there were many who talked all the ongoing stress
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: of growing up too fast or those who are not
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: growing up fast enough. Shirley Temple's career became stagnant after
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: her early childhood career as many could not see her
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: as an adult with an actual adult body, and it
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: may have been due to the hardworking machine of studio
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: publicists and media at the time, but it was odd
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: to know her from classics like the Little Princess to
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: seeing her in the movie That Hagen Girl, which I
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: have seen and really threw me for a loop.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: I was very young when I watched this.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: Of course, Hirley Templewole was already an ambassador and has
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: gone on to live her own life, but it started
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: her and Ronald Reagan, which at that time I'd never
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: seen Ronald Reagan in a movie. I knew he was
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: an actor at one point in time, but I never
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: actually seeing him in a movie.
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  Speaker 2: So this kind of like whoa there he is?
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: Who was, by the way, is seventeen years older than
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: her during this time, so she was nineteen and he
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: was thirty six, and in this he was her romantic lead.
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: And yeah, the plot of the movie was that he
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: may have been her father because she was orphaned and
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: she was trying to figure that out. But then it
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: turned out, thank goodness, he wasn't because he was slowly
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: falling in love with her, and then they go off
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: into the train station to go get married. It was
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: a very odd setup to me, and I remember with
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: obviously it is distinct in my mind, I'm like, this
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: does not compute, does not compute. But yeah, but honestly, though,
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: even though we talk about Shirley Temple being infantilized and
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: being young and trying to stay young, like they made
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: her younger. They lied about her age on the contract
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: so she could continue beyond the time limit. But her
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: first film had her in an exotic bar during a
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: war film called War Babies, so it was kind of like, hmm,
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: did she actually just get thrown into that way? And
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: Elizabeth Taylor was sexualized at a very early age due
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: to her physically developing early and even being pushed to
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: be set up on fate dates to show how quickly
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: she was becoming a woman. So the studio execs were
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: excited that she was growing up, and I like fifteen
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: sixteen pushed her into that genre very quickly.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And for that time, this type of push was
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: accepted and not well regulated. There were stories of separating
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: child stars from the parents so they could discipline children
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: however necessary for the movie, including locking children boxes, making
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: them sit on blocks of ice if they were not obedient,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: pushing actors to work beyond the regulated times, and other
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: horror stories so much so that studies were conducted of
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: child stars and performers and how they may be affected
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: emotionally and physically. By all of this, many young girls
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: talked about how they experienced sexual harassment during their times
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: on studios and sets, and many talked about the overly
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: strictitude of their parents pushing them into that career. And
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of conversation around that in
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: terms of reality TV show right well right. One article
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: we found talked about the impact of being a celebrity
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: as a child and of the impacts of the motivation
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: of both child and parents, and how that could determine
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: a child's experience, as well as the amount of time
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: they spend in the spotlight environment and the child's age.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: And in the same article they said, these children are
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: at high risk of becoming emotionally unstable and of becoming drug, alcohol,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: or sex abusers. Children at different ages display behavioral changes
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: that might indicate that they are risk.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's just the article was talking mainly about
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: the type of high risk behavior that they would have
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: if they were monitored and how this could go a ride.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: Of course, they used Drew Barrymore as an example as
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: she was introduced to that lifestyle very young by her
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: mother thinking. You know, her mother was thinking she can
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: be a cool kid, as well as Elizabeth Taylor being
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: very sexualized very early and told this is her worth,
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: and so her finding that as her worth and trying
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: to really capitalize on it, not only in her screen
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: life but on her personal life. So it was very
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: interesting take in that conversation. It was a fairly old article,
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: and I wonder what they would say, because you're right,
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: we don't even talk about reality TV in this and
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: how that changes. We do talk a little bit about
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: social media, so kind of on that same level, but
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: when it comes to reality.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: TV, what does it do? Who does it harm?
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: And is it really healthy? Have we seen a good example?
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of questions. Yeah, the role of media
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: has always helped to make or break careers, and it
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: was a bit more manageable during the so called Golden
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: Age of film, and I say manageable, manipulated, but they
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: held a lot of power, but in a different way
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: than today.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Will a little more.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: About how media affects today versus then, but historically it
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: was no different. And Elizabeth Taylor's biography, the author talks
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: about Taylor's own connections with a popular columnist who helped
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: make many careers as well as ended many and how
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: often studios would use the media to keep the perfect
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: image of their stars.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: At all expenses.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: Essentially, they would pay whatever in order to keep that going,
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: and unsurprisingly, all the success caused a lot of competition
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: among stars, which is still around. Elizabeth Taylor's feud with
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: Debbie Reynolds painted Taylor as a villain, as the temptress
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: who came and stole her man, which she kind of did,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: and then roles were fought over. More fuse happened, and
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: it kept them on their toes because essentially the studios
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: wanted this to happen. They needed the stars to know
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: they're expendable, and the evils of comparing young stars with
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: each other was prevalent in order to keep them in line.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: But the overall usage of shame and guilt was a
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: cloud leaming over all of them. Body shaming began from
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: the start, with young stars brought in to be inspected, judged,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: and oftentimes physically changed, including plastic surgery and dangerous dregs
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: being used to keep young girls thin even if they
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: didn't need to be. So, the question remains, has it changed?
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Has it changed?
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: Well? Ah, Unfortunately, when it comes to sexualizing or infantalizing
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: young stars. Nothing has really changed, Honestly, it seems it
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: may have gotten worse, thanks in part to things like
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: social media and the Internet as a whole. In one
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: article from NBC about Natalie Portman's own experience as a
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: child's actor, they write, quote, Hollywood bifurcates young women's sexualities,
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: so they usually only have two options to be hyper
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: sexual or to deny that they are sexual at all
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: and it's true, which often leads the audience and fans
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: to only see these actors in one specific way and
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: then if that's if that image is torn part. Oftentimes
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: this at the expense of the actress themselves, as in fact,
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Portman talked about how one of her first fan letters
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: was a rape fantasy written about her by an adult
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: man and they sent it to her as a fan, which, yeah,
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: but that's not the.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Worst of it.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: We've seen repeatedly how media will scorn a young actress
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: about what they wear, how much they weigh, and whether
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: they fit.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: The mold of that perfect star.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: And a prime example, of course is Britney Spears, who
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: has been raked over the calls for any and everything,
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: eventually leading her to the conservativeship against her will. And yeah,
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: I know we've talked about this before, but I think
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: it's really she is a good highlight of what has
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: happened recently and what we're kind of learning from, but
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: not enough.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, she went from being the virgin to the
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: horror within a few years, with every aspect of her
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: life being ridiculed and scrutinized, and later I'm being critiqued
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: in her parenting and of course her body as a whole,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: and the overall obsession in her sex life was a
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: complete double standard in comparison to her male counterparts, as
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: in fact, while she was ridiculed and publicly grilled and
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: TV interviews, her ex boyfriend was being praised as being
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: a man for getting quote into her pants, many conservative
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: parent groups were admonishing her as a bad influence and
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: would shame her as well as any of her fan beies,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: proving once again a dan if you do, dan if
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: you don't for so many of the young celebrities, right, and.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: We also have seen the disturbing conversations about young teens
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: who we as fans have been able to see grow
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: up but quickly become an object of obsession and sexualization.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: Examples include the different redditen blogs that have countdown clocks
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: to when young girls.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Were turning eighteen years old.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: Example Emma Watson, I think she had a whole post
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: of her turning sixteen.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: A radio show did that.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: I believe a rapper did it for Kendall Jin when
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: she was turning eighteen, to the fact that I think
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: someone actually propositioned her to do a sex tape when
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: she turned immediately eighteen, or even worse put in situations
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: such as Mara Wilson, who is a child star of
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: movies such as Matilda and Missus Doubtfire, were images of
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: her on foot feedgi sites and she was photoshopped into
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: child pornography all before the age of twelve, and today
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: it's still happening as the new season of Stranger Things
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: has been released, which I binged, yes I did and
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: start Millie Bobby Brown's recent eighteenth birthday, her image and
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: style has been sexualized and criticized by so meaning. Of course,
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: it didn't just start when she turned eighteen, but has
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: been a topic of conversation since she's hit the spotlight,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: and on top of that, she's having to defend herself
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: from strangers who seem to think they know her enough
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: to judge her, including people calling her a bitch off
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: the fact that they can just tell yeah yeah.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: And I was talking to one of my friends, Marissa,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: who's been on here. Hello Marissa, she's like my other
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: TikTok person. It's you and her sent me the tiktoks
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: that I need. And I was asking her about this
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: because this was sort of the impetus you told me
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: about this on TikTok was sort of impetus for this episode.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: And she she's a huge Stranger Things fan, and she
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: was telling me like she remembered when Millie Bobby Brown
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: was younger, like really young, and people would pull her apart,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: terror apart because she talked too much. So she wasn't
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: like PR trained. She was a child who was excited,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: so they tore her apart. And now they're mad, according
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: to Marissa, and I believe Marissa. Now they're mad because
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: she seems more cold and like closed off. But she's
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: doing the thing that they were telling her she should
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: have done as a child. Basically, she got PR training.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: It sounds like essentially, I know there was one post
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: where she they were doing publicity for Stranger Things. It
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: was the whole cast, and she came out I think
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: of the crowd and came to the front because of
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: another ptographer. You know, someone had requested it, or she
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: had been pushed up or something, and it wasn't just
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: because she did it. And one of the photographers like,
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: she's so annoying. Why did get out of the way,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: And it was like, wait, she's just doing what she's
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: been insuanted to do. Why are you doing this? And
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: then another post which she criticized and I put this
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: in quote marks, but she was saying if she could
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: change something that she wished more deaths, said she wanted
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: like a Game of Thrones level of deaths in the
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: show because it didn't feel realistic. And then she was
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: teasing the Duffer brothers are saying, you know, they're being pansies.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: They need they need to just go.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Ahead kill people off. And of course they responded, they're like,
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: all right, we got you. But the way they presented
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: it was Millie Bobby Brown criticizes directors, and it was
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: obviously a push of a dig as if she was
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: truly saying this, And even still it seemed in the
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: interview if you actually read the interview, it was obvious
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: that she had said this to them before, making fun
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: of them and or tease them and set it out loud,
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: and then to misconstrued us her being a bit complaining
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: about the show. So it was very interesting to see
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: how they are really framing what she is doing, how
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: she is being, her being professional, her being I mean,
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: she is now a pro at this. She has done
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: this since as child, probably more understanding of this limelight
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: than a lot of people. So she is an old
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: hat in this. But because of that, she's too confident,
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: she's too sure what is she doing, which does make
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: you think.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Right it does it does something else that makes you
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: think there are these old school ideas that can still
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: lead to a loss of opportunity for these young stars,
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: such as Vanessa Hudgins, who was fired from Disney after
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: nude pictures of her were leaked, Which actually leads to
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: a whole other topic which we want to revisit, concerning
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: how the media and people in general exploit celebrities by
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: releasing private data or information for the sake of gossip.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I also want to add in here, and this all
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: reminds you of when it was a big deal when
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Order the Phoenix came out and Emma Watson that name
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: was fifteen, fifteen sixteen, and the company or somebody who
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: worked for the company photo shopped her boobs to be bigger,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: and people were like, Hi, that's it, that's a kid, that's.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: That's really unnecessary.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Why are you why are you doing this? And I
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: remember being like, it just sends a message. A lot
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: of this sends a message to young girls who are
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: consuming it. Right. But yeah, speaking of.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Media, right, let's jump into it.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: So we did talk about earlier how media does impact
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: and it's changed a little bit since that time, and
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: it's not so controlled by studios anymore.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: So.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: After the release of Framing Britney Spears, there was a
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: new flurry of conversation about how we as a society
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: treat young women in Hollywood.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Of course, if you're my age range. One of the biggest.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: Conversations the impact of media celebrities was due to the
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: tragic death of Princess Diana, which we could talk about
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: how Megan Markle is being scrutinized in a similar way today,
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: of course, with the added plus of racist media, so
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: that's a whole different conversation, but we did highlight how
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: so many of the celebrities during that time were often
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: dragged through the mud for clickbaity articles and selling just tabloids.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: And that was the kind of the beginning of TMZ
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: Entertainment tonight, all that which was just all about celebrity gossip.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: And yeah, as we look in hindsight, we see that
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: there's something fundamentally wrong when someone's trauma is used to
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: get a bit of cash or notoriety. As writer as
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: Shandon McGuigan, so sorry if I said that wrong, writs
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: in her article on the media's treatment of female public figures.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: Quote the intensity of the media's hounding of Brittany highlighted
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: a real lack of empathy shown towards the star, And
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: this was a statement from Hannah Davies in that article,
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: which was The Guardian's deputy TV editor at the time.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: She further declared that Brittany was dehumanized in the eyes
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: of the media and the public, with society expressing and
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: intense amounts of judgment that was regarded as socially acceptable,
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: demonstrated through March plastered with jokes of Brittany surviving two
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: thousand and eight being produced for profit, and we know
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: how all of that went down, all of the clips,
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: and if you got a photo in her distress, it
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: was paid for by thousands and thousands of dollars.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: And the messier the better for the media headlines insinuating
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: mental health breakdowns, drug usage, messy breakups pushed young celebrities
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: to the edge, and though teen boys were talked about,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: it was never to the same degree that the young
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: teen girls received. They pitted women against women for bigger
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: headlines like we had the whole teaen Gin or Team
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Angelina and came to Brad Pitt.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: There was t shirts.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it was a huge thing. I
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: just remember like going down like checking out the grocery store,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: and like every magazine cover was it is I know,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: I know. Wow. Then we all so saw blaming women
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: for sexual aggression, like Janet Jackson, the whole Super Bowl thing,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: accusing women of being divas or bitches like Mariah Carey
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: and Megan Fox. And we've talked a bit about the
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: villainizing of these women in part due to men purposely
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: ruining careers for not playing the submissive ladies that Hollywood
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: once dominated, like Weinstein and Michael Bay right, if you
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: try to get out of that box, and you're right.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, there was plenty of women who have since
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: come out that I have been ostracized and blacklisted because
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: I would not be victimized by these men. And it's
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: quite interesting because it does. It's reminiscent of old Hollywood.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And there are some people who are finally getting
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: there due like Britney Spears, who has been freed from
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: the controversial conservative ship and is starting to get some
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: apologies from the many who exploited her lowest points in
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: her life, Megan Fox being vindicated from her ruined reputation.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: And there are those who are able to take a
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: step back and take control of those traumatic narratives, such
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: as Mara Wilson, who I also loved as a kid,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: and some who have been able to continue in their
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: career on their own terms, like Nali Portman and Natasha Leone.
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: You know, I guess we should mention stepping back would
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: be Mary Kate and Ashley, whom you love so dearly.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: I loved them so much. I could tell them apart.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: They're not identical twins, they're fraternal twins. I would like
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: it was the most annoying habit. I'd be like, oh
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: that's Ashley. Oh sorry Kate, and everyone's like, please stop
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: if we're watching it.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Take talent, that's an important talent.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: And of course some credit movements like the Me Too
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: movement and holding the media accountable for the insensitive and
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: often traumatic content in relation to young actresses and female celebrities,
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: but others say has a lot to do with social
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: media as well and how individuals are able to direct
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: the conversation. Again, and the whole accountability stuff is pretty
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: pretty significant. Whether that is good or bad, some can't tell.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: In this era of accountability, call outs, call ins, and canceling.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Social media can be a slippery slope. We all know this.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: Many celebrities have already remained largely offline due to being
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: harassed or targeted, and several have vowed to never be
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: online due to the.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Overall privacy issue.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: That's fair, and there are celebrities who use their social
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: media as a way to connect with fans and the
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: tool to keep their fans updated in their lives, which
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: can be good. But some have talked about the overall
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: pressures and anxiety social media causes and how they can
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: no longer participate or have to take extended breaks from it.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: Stars like Selena Gomez and Millie Bobby Brown have either
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: taken breaks from social media for their mental health or
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: overall for the safety of others. I know at one
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: point Millie Bobby Brown had one of her pictures taken
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: to become a meme and it was really homophobic. It
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: was very hurtful, and she was like, I had no
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: thing to do with this, and it came out it
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: wasn't her, but it was being accredited to her and
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: people were attacking her and she had to come off.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: Of course, you know, we've talked about constantly how yeah,
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: we have to be very careful and we're not celebrities,
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: so I couldn't imagine having millions and millions of followers
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: who may turn on you at any moment.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and that's why we're big proponents here. I
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: think it's just good at internet practice, like do your
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: research before you just like tweet something or right, just
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: find out where it's from or what's going on, uh,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: because it might not be what you think and then
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: you might attack someone who really had nothing to do
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: with it nothing. Yeah. Yeah. And also Mersa was telling
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: me about this documentary she watched with Taylor Swift and
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: she was like, Taylor Switch has a whole like team
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: that's like, here we go, We're gonna tweet this out.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: How we're gonna word it was the best way? And right, Oh, I.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: Know, I know a lot of popstars are having to
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: like they are told they have to in order to
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: release their albums and that things are being settled hostage
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: in order to get it done. So there's such a
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: whole layer that it would suck to be on that
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: level celebrity with no power.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Yes it would, Yes, it would. Something else that also
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: sex as being under constant scrutiny by the masses, and
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: it has pushed many celebrities to go dark. And we
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: have talked about this a lot when it comes to
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: things like Star Wars and Marvel, like the big franchises
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: where they get, especially women and other marginalized folks, get
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: all of this hate and not really anybody coming to
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: their defense right in terms of like their co stars,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: like the studio, and so they leave and yeah, the
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: as we've also discussed, there is a bigger conversation of
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: bots because a lot of it is bots and also
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: just protection from harassment for these marginalized folks, the impact
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: that can have, what we could possibly do, because it
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: is a huge problem.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: Right again, of course we talked about the fandom, toxic
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: fandom and the gatekeeping. There's a lot of conversation in that,
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: and we know that's not always the case. But yeah,
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: we've seen a lot of marginalized women specifically getting targeted
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: just because they just don't like it period and they
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: have nothing to do with creating the character other than
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: acting and typically acting the hell out of it. And
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: we love it and it had it been a standalone
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: people probably would not have never.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Had a second thought. But of course, yeah, we can't
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: have nice things.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: No, Yeah, well, speaking of speaking of social media, the
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: age of social media has led to this idea of anonymity,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: which allows for individuals who in person may be they
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: may seem okay, but online feel very imbold in Tuesday
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: whatever whenever, without recourse, as we have learned through many
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: criticism of this podcast, this very podcast. And then I
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: used to have to answer these things on YouTube and
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: I'd be like, Hi, have a nice day or whatever,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: and they'd be like wow, someone responded, I'm like, yeah,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: some poor soul.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: I don't read this.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, and all of this begs the question is this okay?
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: And what is our responsibility as a fan of something
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: or of someone. As young actresses and celebrities grow up,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: the world watches their every move and oftentimes makes these judgments,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: and they feel the need to do so through their keyboard,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: thinking they won't be noticed or yeah, even like on
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: a podcast, start through other mediums like this, feel like
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: they can make these criticisms. It's okay. When fans and
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: critics become too familiar with the celebrity, we often forget
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: that they are yes, human, there is somebody there and
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: they deserve to be treated as such. Two women podcasters
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: felt the need to call Milling Bobby Brown a bitch
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: because they felt she just seemed that way. And again
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: that's sort of what got this idea.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this whole level, and honestly, there's so much
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: more to that, because we know there's this whole critic like,
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: she just seems to like people someone I wouldn't like.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: She just seems like it.
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: That's fine, you don't have to like everybody, But what
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: does this need to call them in such a derogatory
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: manner without knowing them and instead of like just having
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: a moment of like I wonder, I wonder what kind
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: of pressures they are. I just keep them out of
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: your mouth, don't speak about them.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: That's all it takes.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: And speaking of criticism, that kind of just doesn't make
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: sense other than she's a woman that you don't want
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: to see in this I don't know. One of those
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: critics felt Carrie mulligan was not a good pick to
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: carry out the role of a film fatale character, even
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: though her performance in the movie Promising Young Women was
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: well received, and her hitting back at the criticism as
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: a sexist and even agist remark was actually countered with
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: another criticism as saying that that there is a right
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: to be able to criticize and critique a celebrities appearance
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: and actors appearance if it seems like they are miscast.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: So I went through, we went through when we were
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: looking at this and speaking about this article, because it
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: was a pretty big deal. Kay, Mulligan came out pretty
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: strong and being like, Okay, we get it. You don't
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: like me as this cast, you don't believe me as
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: being the fat teale. That's on you. But why do
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: we need to go about this appearance thing. And I
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: even mentioned, like the article that was written in even
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: mentioned well, Margot Robbie was a producer. I'm sure it
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: wasn't intended for her, so obviously like a backhanded criticism.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: About her appearance.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: And then someone came in defense of that, not saying
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: necessarily that her looks should have been critiqued, but more
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: so that we as the audience, should be able to
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: say this probably wasn't cast right based on appearance, based
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: on looks, which seemed wasn't.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: The same to me.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: I kind of understood what they were going with this,
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: but at the same time, but this is this is
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: a little bit ages. Obviously what they wanted was the hot, blonde, tall,
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: young fatale that we have seen so often.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: And Kay Mulligan's not that old. No talk about that.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: He he's not that old, So none of that makes
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: sense in itself.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: But of course they talked about, you know, women wouldn't
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: want to see, which was really odd Chris Hemsworth playing
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: a dowdy poet, and I was like, why not before
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: you what are you talking about. We've seen honky men
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: playing serious roles. We've seen ridiculous comedians being the serious,
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: filling guy, like I mean Jim Carrey won awards for
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: his serious roles, which you would never thought this slapstick
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: comedian could do and even seen as like a leading man,
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: So it kind of like, no, we don't have that.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: Of course, she talked about the fact that we should
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: be able to say, have this critique so we could
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: open up for more different variations of looks to take.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Leading roles, but I don't feel like.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: That was where they were going with this, especially in
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: critiquing that specifically.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think that we are much more forgiving
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: in general of men, whether it's perceiving them to be
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: a bitch or not. Like women have to be nice
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: and grateful they got this role right, and you have
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: to be because we have limited roles for women like
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: we have historically in Hollywood and the like. I believe
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: the average age for women winning an oscar like ten
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: years ago, so this might have changed. It was twenty
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: six and for a man it was fifty three. So wow,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: I think we have like and by we, I mean
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: audiences have this idea of for women it is this
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: and it looks like this, and I can critique her
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: appearance because that's what women is about. For men, it
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: could be they could do anything but women. And I
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: know I've told this story before. I had I had
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: a for me, a pretty big break, pretty big role,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: and the night I was supposed to shoot it, the
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: guy told me that one of the oh, I don't know,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: one of the crew, he was like, it sucks to
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: be in an industry where it's all about your looks, right,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: And I looked at him and I was like, what what?
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: And then they gave it to a man because he
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: was like, I think I think it'd be better. I
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: think it'd be more believable for a man did this.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: I was like, what what?
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: And this most like that that you realize this is
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: not an easy industry in itself, that it's not set
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: up for just anyone, which is a whole different conversation. Yeah.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: And then there's this debate of crossing boundaries, which that
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: dude cross a boundary, I would say, but I'm referencing
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: to celebrities. Is it okay to interrupt a celebrity during
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: a dinner for a photo? Is it okay to film
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: or take pics without their knowledge or permission? Can we
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: go into somebody's home without permission for souvenirs. Of course,
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: these are more rhetorical questions, but it has become less
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: and less acceptable to cross these boundaries, which is great,
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: But at the same time, we've seen a lot of
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: backlash for those who are private and seek to keep
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: it that way. So people who get upset if you've
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: been waiting at their hotel room and they don't want
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: to stop to talk to you, right, we get it,
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: like you love them and you feel like you have
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: this ideal of them. But if they're tired, they're tired,
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: and they should have the right to say that. We
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: saw recently Tom Hanks America Sweetheart, get very angry when
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: his wife and I don't know exactly what happened when
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: Rita Wilson, who is a celebrity as well also his.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: Wife, but either tripped got pushed.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: There was a lot of conversation about what happened, and
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: he lost it and cursed that people to be like,
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: calm down off, And that's his right, that makes sense,
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: but he got a lot of backlash for it too,
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: Like he got both love and hate for that reaction,
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: and it kind of has that point of like, okay,
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: so what is this line how do we make sure
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: we don't cross those boundaries? But what is this line
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: of like, you're celebrity and this is kind of what happens.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: And I know the kind of maybe this is just
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: making making it up seeing too many movies, like they
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: love it at first and then they hate it. Yeah,
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: so kind of those two things. And it seems like
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: it sometimes take drastic and extreme measures for people to
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: realize this, whether it's a tearful request to be given privacy,
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: so being like please leave me alone. Y'all have done
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: so much you like, really harassed us, Please stop to
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: almost into endangering their lives and being put in these
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: situations that are so extreme that that's the final point
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: of like, hey, you almost killed us tonight, Please don't
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: do this.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's that level of fan entitlement we've talked
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: about before where it's some it's kind of bizarre to me,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: but it's like this idea that they owe us something.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Right, we put you here, right, and.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: It's sort of the price of your fame almost. It's
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: like you will you're rich and famous, so I get
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: to do whatever and I'll never forget. I saw this
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: interview with Jennifer Lawrence a couple of years ago, and
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: she was talking about visiting her family and she's like, well,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: we had to put up all the you know, trash
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: bags of the windows. And I was like, wait what
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: She's like, oh, yeah, so we had to put up
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: every time I visit them, we put up trash bags
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: over the windows so they can't take pictures. She was
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: talking about like trying to explain that to the young
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: people and her family and just how bizarre, like that
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: sounds terrible to me, that sounds awful. We've also talked
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: about parasocial relationships a little bit before, and here we
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: can easily see how this can be good, can be
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: really great, or it can't be really really awful. And
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: as we said before, fans are powerful and deserve respect,
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: because yes, the power of fandom is no joke. You know,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: we love some healthy fangirls over here, and they can
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: really really make things happen. That is or sure, the
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: Britney Stands are a force and we're able to keep
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: the conversation alive when so many people had written it
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: off around around Britney Spears and the conservatorship. But it
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: can also be a negative incidents where fans feel betrayed
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: by celebrity can be a real storm. Think of Hailey
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Bieber after she and Justin got together, those who were
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: teams Lena have non stopped her, asked her for just
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: being with him. We've talked about that before, to the
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: point both she and Justin have repeatedly asked her fans
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: to stop and how it's been affecting them.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: Both, right, And we've seen that in different celebrities, like
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: if they don't like the person you're with, they may
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: go after you. Of course, there's some conversations of like yeah,
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: but there's some that's like this is dangerous, this is
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: an unusual circumstance. We have questions kind of all of that,
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: but that I digress. I won't give any examples of that,
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: but but yeah, there's a lot when it comes to
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: all of these responsibilities and how we see celebrities in itself,
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: and especially when it comes to women, the expectations that
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: we hold, and it kind of makes you think, what
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: does the future hold? Is the future going to be
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: better for the next generation of stars and celebrities And yeah,
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: with the new mediums come new levels of stardom from
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: YouTube stars to TikTok stars, to whatever the next level
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: may be.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Twitch.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: I guess Twitch is already there. We are seeing a
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: whole different level of celebrity, and some experts have already
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: begun their studies in these types of celebrity. In an
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: Insider or article written by Rachel E. Greenspand, she talks
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: with psychologists and about the up and coming stars of
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: TikTok and the expectations. And in the article, greenspand rights
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: experts warned that these young influencers will face the typical
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: hurdles child fame, but with the additional complication of real
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: time social media surveillance by millions and an algorithmically programmed
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: addiction to the instant gratification of a never ending barrage
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: of notifications, which is my nightmare. I know those notifications
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: that go away.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: I think I can figure this out for you, smath.
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: So we've already talked about the damages, how about early
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: childhood stardom and what that can cause? But add to
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: that the immediateness of social media, the total access provided
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: by the stars and by the fans, like they are
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: going to tell you immediately if they like or don't
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: like something.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Yep, and it's the Internet, so it doesn't go away, right,
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: And this new level of stardom has brought out a
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: new generation of hopefuls who are waiting for their time
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: to go viral. Greenspan continues. The algorithms that underlie practically
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: every social media service today force us to compete for visibility.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: These teenagers may now feel themselves an extraordinary bind, competing
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: against each other and the newspeed algorith in order to
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: maintain visibility, a competition in which only the social media
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: services succeed. The concept of viral social media fame has
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: become so ingrained in our society that it's almost natural
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: for people to hope their next post will take off,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: and some of the newly made celebrities have already learned
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: about the backlash of fame. Many under the cancel culture,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: a narrative due to the extreme or impulsive natures of
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: their posts, have learned this lesson, have seen it, have
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: experienced it, but they are also learning how to handle it.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: Greenspan continues. Many influencers have already, perhaps unintentionally, discovered what
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: experts say is the best way to protect oneself against
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: the dangers of fame by using influence to help the
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: world and raise awareness about causes you're passionate about. You're
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: actually establishing a deeper sense of who you are as
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: a person.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: Right, and I am interested to see what the statistics
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: will look like. We again did not talk about reality
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: stars and young stars, because there has been this conversation
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: about the sexualization of young girls in these videos as
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: well as infantalizing some of the girls who were no
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: longer young younger.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Jojo Sawa was one.
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: Of those who got criticisms on both ends when she
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: was growing up, but yet still kept the ponytail to
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: finally coming out and finding relationships and growing in ourselves
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: and being criticized for that. Like, it's just a whole
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: new level of stardom that we've never seen that is
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: produced again by the pressures of oftentimes family and society.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: That part has seemingly not gone away.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the the Internet. I mean, we
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: talk about it all the time on here, and Bridgett
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: does such a great job of breaking it down. There's many,
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: many beautiful things about the Internet, but in a lot
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: of ways, like those comment sections can be just like
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: every toxic thing in our society amplified right, So we're
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: already getting as young girls all of these really harmful
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: messages about our body and how you should look and
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: how we should behave and then if you multiply that
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: by social media, I can only imagine being young and
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: absorbing that and seeing that. Right.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: You know, the double edged sword to this is we
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: have more body positive influencers and that's beautiful and I'd
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: love to see it. Half the time they're defending their
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: body and their videos because there's so many that still
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: continue to attack them and continue to really harass them.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: So it feels kind of like, yes, this is great,
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: but at the same time, oh my god, they still
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: have to keep going through all of this and still
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: have to be in this position to take this kind
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: of abuse.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: It's interesting. I'm interested in seeing how this goes.
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: I think what we really wanted to do about this
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: and I didn't get to it, Like the honest title
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: was going to be the villainization of young teenage stars,
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: but we couldn't even find enough articles because there are
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: so many other things that seem to be traumatizing and
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: triggering for a lot of these celebrities that we haven't considered.
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: Of course, you know this goes into that like, well,
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: at least they have all of these basic necessities and
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: all of these things, and most of the people were
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: talking about our young white girls. Yeah, and that's unfortunate
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: because we don't even we have to go climb a
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: whole new level of toxicity when it comes to the
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: black young black girls who are going through so much
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: that they don't even get the chance to become that
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: half the time because of the racism that is so
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: staunch and so heavy here. So we know this is
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: that level of conversation, but there's a lot to consider
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: when we see what is happening, especially for myself as
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: a social worker who worked with young kids, seeing this
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: is such a problem in such a big way. But
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: at the same time, you hope it changes, but historically
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: it doesn't seem to be.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think a part of this it
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: goes back to something you said earlier, Samantha's it's very
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: clear that we again as a society, view women as
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: expendable and we kind of their misery is our entertainment
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: and that's fine, and we feel very entitled as a society. Again,
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: I'm not speaking about Smith then, I but you know,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: we as a society feel very entitled to cause harm,
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: to like really judge everything they do and then throw
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: them away when they experience any sort of trauma or
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: anything that doesn't fit in how we think they should
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: behave and how they should look.
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean that's that's up to like even
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: Harvey Winstein. Like the fact that went on so long, right,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: that's pretty telling. Yeah. Yeah, so there is a lot
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: to there's a lot to un back here. Yes, yes,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: there is. Well. Listeners as always, if there's anything you
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: want us to follow up on in here, if there
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: is resources, we haven't shut it out. If you have
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: a favorite Mary Kate and Ashley movie, you can't let
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: us know.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Do you want to talk to me about musicals? I
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: don't think anyone does.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: I think I don't think anyone read out about Mary
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Kate Ashley. But you could prove us all or wrong. Listeners.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Our email is Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: or on Instagram at Stefon'll Never hold You. Thanks as
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: always to our super producer Christina, with bonus thanks this
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: week to researcher Joey and our executive producer Maya. It's
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: really badass group of guys.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Y'all are the heroes. Yes helped us with this so much.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: Shout out.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: Yes all the shout outs and thanks to you for listening.
• 50:37
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