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Ep255 – Meeting Your Changing Needs Roundtable · Untoxicated Podcast

0:01
Welcome to the Untoxicated
0:03
podcast.
0:05
Well, I'm Sherry Salas, and that was my
0:07
husband, Matt. We have questions about the impact
0:10
of alcohol and addiction on relationships.
0:12
If you have those kinds of questions too,
0:14
you're in the right place. Here we
0:17
go.
0:20
So we're going with Musketeers. Is that right?
0:22
Yeah. Going with okay. We're gonna start a
0:25
little inside baseball. Only
0:27
a fraction of our listening audience will understand,
0:30
but that fraction of our listening audience is
0:32
very important. We are here at the 2024
0:36
version
0:37
of the Echoes of Recovery Retreat in the
0:40
Colorado Rocky Mountains
0:41
with our retreat attendees, and we have just
0:44
come up
0:45
with the signature name. And I gotta say,
0:46
it is a great name. Evie, you're gonna
0:49
get a lot of credit for this one.
0:50
Yes. How much do I make from it?
0:55
Well, you get
0:56
you get a 50 share of the advertising
0:59
revenue from this
1:01
episode. Yeah. Yeah. We gotta remember never to
1:03
put advertising. That's that's an episode even like
1:06
That's not recorded now.
1:09
So On the record.
1:10
So moose get tears, and that was because
1:13
we saw a moose. Saw a moose. We
1:15
saw a moose. Seen him a couple times.
1:17
The first time
1:18
we saw the moose, it was on the
1:19
way in
1:20
from the airport.
1:22
We hadn't even been to the retreat house
1:24
yet. We had just turned the corner off
1:26
the highway onto, like, the country road,
1:29
and I believe it was Nikki and you,
1:32
Lauren,
1:32
who spotted the moose.
1:35
And we were
1:38
ho ho. And some others in the car
1:40
ho ho ho. Some others in the car
1:41
were like, oh, yeah. Sure. He saw a
1:43
moose. Right? Yeah. We lived here for 20
1:45
years. I've seen a moose twice, and you
1:46
just saw one. Sure you did.
1:48
But it was. It was a moose because
1:50
we've seen him a couple times now.
1:52
Congratulations.
1:53
Thank you. Like, we weren't bullying the first
1:54
time. I know. You should be really upset.
1:57
I am pissed. I know you are. I
1:59
know.
2:00
Nikki is And some of us actually pissing
2:03
you. Did you try to Some of us
2:04
in the car was you, Matt. Yeah. You
2:07
you you you. You were the one that
2:08
was I was the downer. You're right. Yeah.
2:10
Yeah. You saw a big deal. I know
2:11
how that works. Right? Yeah. Funny how the
2:14
tables turn.
2:15
And then we saw it the next day,
2:16
day, and it was in a hailstorm. So
2:20
all hail the Musketeers.
2:22
Welcome to
2:24
the intoxicated podcast. Thank you all so much
2:26
for being here. How the hell are you
2:28
doing?
2:30
Good stuff. So to the naked turtles
2:33
and the hummingbird ninjas, you have,
2:37
a 3rd anniversary
2:38
sisterhood, and they've got a really cool name.
2:41
And so this is a live roundtable
2:43
podcast from the Echoes of Recovery Retreat 20
2:46
24 version.
2:48
Our topic for today, you know, and I'm
2:50
gonna I'm gonna fall on the sword. We've
2:52
done a bunch of these retreat episodes. Haven't
2:54
we, Sherry? Yeah. Not just with the echo
2:56
retreat, but also merge evolution.
2:58
And we always pick a pretty kinda
3:00
Heavy,
3:01
intense,
3:03
lots of detail sort of
3:05
questions in the podcast topic. Oh, I was
3:08
gonna say an easy one. But Oh. I
3:10
feel like we had, like,
3:12
the You get emotional. It was yeah. Yeah.
3:14
You're right. And the first echoes retreat was
3:16
pretty Oh, that was much. That was yeah.
3:19
That was a lot of that was, like,
3:21
questions. I bet if you go back and
3:22
listen to your questions or check your old
3:25
notebooks to see the questions you asked, you
3:26
Well, everyone knows how much I love to
3:28
make you cry, so I figured we've got
3:30
a whole group of people. Let's see how
3:31
we can help you.
3:34
Tissues? They're right there.
3:37
Yeah. I'm kidding. That's not really that's not
3:39
really true at all. I hate to see
3:40
people cry. But, the topic, we're gonna ask
3:43
people to go back in the way back
3:44
machine and remember things from not just present
3:47
day, your present day emotions, and your present
3:48
day relationships, but
3:50
we're gonna go back in time a little
3:52
bit, and we're gonna talk about your changing
3:54
needs over time with this roundtable.
3:57
So I hope you guys are excited about
3:58
that. With us today
4:00
at the Echoes of Recovery Retreat
4:03
is Nikki, Evie, Melanie, Kristen, Nicole, Lauren,
4:07
Ali, and Julie. Thank you all for being
4:09
here. Hope you guys have been having a
4:11
good time. Yes.
4:12
Yeah. Yep. Awesome. It's been wonderful.
4:14
So the title of the episode
4:17
is meeting
4:20
meeting your changing needs.
4:22
That's what we're talking about, meeting your changing
4:23
needs. And I thought that's kinda cumbersome. Obviously,
4:26
I can't say it. I really I thought
4:28
about naming it the getting your needs met
4:30
roundtable,
4:31
but that sounds too much like an orgy.
4:33
I thought that's a
4:34
that's a mafia.
4:36
And I don't think anyone would wanna listen
4:38
to that. So my my real first question
4:41
is,
4:42
what needs did you have when you first
4:44
met your partner?
4:46
That's tough, isn't it? None. None. Tell me
4:49
more.
4:51
I'm 21.
4:52
I had no idea what needs meant in
4:55
a relationship.
4:58
Yeah. So I couldn't say that I had,
5:00
like, specific ones that I needed met in
5:03
a partner at at the time. In in
5:05
a partner or can you go beyond it?
5:07
Like, did you know what your needs were
5:09
regardless of a partner?
5:11
I mean, it's kind of a loaded question,
5:12
but I was kinda hoping someone would
5:15
say that. That's what I was gonna say
5:16
that, you know, jumped in. But I don't
5:17
even think that I would have known what
5:20
I needed or was looking for other than,
5:21
like, comparing
5:23
you, Matt, to the other people I had
5:25
and what I didn't want anymore. Like, I
5:27
didn't say what I didn't want,
5:29
but I didn't know what I wanted or
5:31
needed
5:32
or or felt like I
5:33
needed. I would say that needs were very
5:35
superficial.
5:36
Yes. Like, I needed,
5:39
you know, to go out and have a
5:40
good time and I needed him to meet
5:43
all my friends
5:44
and be liked and
5:47
I don't know They were just it was
5:49
nothing meaningful to the relationship
5:51
necessarily.
5:53
So was like,
5:55
showing off
5:56
your boyfriend, like, some more kinda aesthetic
6:00
physical, like, look at my cute boyfriend. Was
6:02
that kinda higher on the list then? And
6:04
look at me. I have a boyfriend. Oh,
6:06
yeah. And he's older than me and he's
6:09
got a real job and he's
6:11
cool and drives a truck.
6:14
Yeah. All of those superficial things.
6:17
So either superficial or unaware?
6:20
Mhmm. I think I was older. Mine was
6:22
so I we were going around the table
6:24
before the the podcast started
6:27
and I was
6:28
27 almost 28 when I met my husband.
6:32
So I had dated, you know, had a
6:35
bunch of first dates before that. I knew
6:37
I said that did not make it past
6:39
that. And so I think I knew what
6:42
I wanted.
6:43
I knew I wanted if I was gonna,
6:44
you know, if we're gonna do this, I
6:45
wanted to find someone that I wanted to
6:47
marry and I wanted to have kids with,
6:49
because I was kind of more in that
6:51
stage of life.
6:53
So I was looking for more stability with
6:55
a job,
6:56
career potential,
6:59
and then there's just like things I feel
7:01
like now looking back at it, that should
7:03
be a given like safety,
7:05
you know,
7:07
companionship,
7:08
respect,
7:09
things that you just assumed you were gonna
7:11
get when you,
7:13
went forward with that relationship.
7:15
Yeah. We're gonna dive. Especially at that age.
7:17
Right? Yeah. When you find the people that
7:19
you Yes. It's like, oh,
7:21
job, career,
7:22
you know, underway, and then you think that
7:24
it's that's just gonna be given. And then
7:26
the other thing too, I wanted,
7:30
like, you know, I was older, so I
7:31
I
7:32
was pretty independent. So I wanted someone who
7:34
who would respect that,
7:36
sort of turned on me when, you know,
7:37
he turned to alcohol and definitely
7:40
allowed me to do my own thing.
7:43
But, yeah,
7:45
just just different definitely, if I would have
7:47
met him when I was 21, I definitely
7:50
would have looked for different things and been
7:51
in a
7:53
different place in my own life.
7:55
Mhmm. I think for me, I
7:58
so I was 17, but
8:00
I had already been cheated on by a
8:02
really crappy boyfriend. I should not have let
8:04
hang around as long as I did. And
8:06
so fidelity was a big thing for me
8:09
or someone who,
8:12
acted like I was the most important thing
8:14
in the world, which even throughout
8:16
everything we've been through, he still has me
8:19
on a pedestal.
8:20
So I guess I found that. But, but
8:23
I was seeking someone. I wasn't looking for
8:25
I didn't wanna I did not want a
8:26
boyfriend because I was a couple months before
8:28
graduating high school, going off to this big
8:31
school and I
8:32
did not wanna be tied down. So that
8:34
wasn't gonna happen, but it did. But, yeah,
8:37
I definitely
8:39
I was looking for a little more honesty,
8:41
I guess. I'm curious.
8:45
Pedestal. I never did. Well, I mean, I
8:46
guess I did back then, but that's maybe
8:48
a change in need. But, but now it's
8:51
kinda irritating.
8:52
It's a lot of pressure. It is a
8:54
lot of pressure. Yeah. For sure. I don't
8:56
even need like, I just wanted someone who
8:58
wasn't clingy because my previous boyfriend was such
9:01
a clinger. Mhmm. I was like, you're not
9:02
clingy. You have a car, and you're working.
9:05
It looks like you could be doing something.
9:07
That was literally it. Someone who wasn't a
9:09
clinger. Mhmm. Just a baseline of my knees.
9:12
That's really interesting. You mentioned that. Nicole, you
9:14
mentioned that you've been cheated on. I was
9:17
cheated on in college with a previous girlfriend.
9:19
And so immediately when you said that, I
9:21
went, oh, yeah. Like, one of the big
9:23
things I was what?
9:25
What are you saying about? Happened. That made
9:27
you absolutely clingy. I know.
9:30
You definitely,
9:31
Lauren, didn't want someone who had been cheated
9:33
on prior to you because that were
9:36
yeah. But I think that's interesting how
9:38
you maybe don't recognize what your needs are
9:41
on, like, a conscious level, except for the
9:42
ways you've already been stung. Right? Yeah. Even
9:45
if it's limited because you're young. Right. That's
9:47
true. That's super interesting.
9:49
Kristen, you mentioned kids.
9:51
Most people, but not everybody at this roundtable
9:53
has kids.
9:57
At young age, when you're first meeting your
9:59
partner,
10:00
maybe you're starting maybe your college, maybe you're
10:02
starting a professional career. Are you thinking about
10:04
kids at that point? Are you thinking, I
10:04
really want to have kids and is this
10:05
the right person? So I can pop in
10:07
on this from the perspective of someone who
10:08
was older, like Kristen, when I met my
10:11
from the perspective of someone who was older,
10:13
like Kristen, when I met my husband. Okay.
10:16
And, you know, I was I was established.
10:18
I had a house.
10:22
What stood out to me was not, oh,
10:25
I want kids. It wasn't like, I wanna
10:27
have a baby.
10:28
It was I was reaching an age. I've
10:30
the guy that I had been dating previously
10:33
was very adamant. He did not want children,
10:35
and I respected that there was an age
10:37
gap in our difference, and I
10:43
but I
10:44
had reached a point in that relationship prior
10:47
just prior to meeting,
10:49
my husband
10:50
that
10:53
we were morphing, and I knew that if
10:55
I did if I wanted to have a
10:57
family,
10:58
I needed to let that relationship go and
11:01
open myself up to someone who did want
11:04
a family. So it wasn't so much like,
11:06
I wanna have kids with you. It was
11:08
I want there to be the option of
11:10
their
11:11
of having children in the future. Yeah. Exactly.
11:14
That was very important.
11:15
I think even even though it wasn't necessarily
11:19
on my mind because I was 21 about
11:21
to turn 22, I in some ways
11:24
it's on every woman's mind like if if
11:27
I wanna have kids or if I want
11:29
the option of having kids there's a time
11:31
limit right? So I think that
11:33
is
11:34
something that we all have thought about at
11:37
some point in our lives you know? Yeah.
11:40
Before we got married, we had to have
11:42
all those talks. We wanted the same number
11:43
of kids, and we had all those just
11:46
because we dated for four and a half
11:47
years all through college and got married after
11:49
graduation.
11:51
But but, yeah, if he had said he
11:53
didn't wanna have kids, I probably wouldn't married
11:55
him, honestly.
11:57
Mhmm.
11:58
Because I really wanted to. The guy in
12:00
and said,
12:02
4 months in, let's just I know the
12:03
plan was kinda made for you. What's the
12:05
worst I could have been? I did though.
12:07
I did put his last name because I
12:09
was a kid. And I was like, oh,
12:10
his last name sounds good with my name.
12:12
That could that was the other So you
12:14
needed someone with a cool last name? Totally.
12:16
Oh, me.
12:17
Yeah. Same. That's what it was.
12:19
Yeah. I went to some point someone higher
12:21
up in the alpha. Same. I went
12:23
from w to h.
12:24
Wow.
12:25
S to g. I chose from the 12
12:27
letters to look at the Yeah. I got
12:29
the last letters.
12:30
So less letters higher at the end, but
12:33
and sounds good with your first name. Yeah.
12:36
For sure. I know all of you reasonably
12:38
well. And so when I was preparing the
12:40
questions for this episode, I was anticipating your
12:42
answers.
12:43
That's not what I anticipated
12:45
unless you cared about the alphabetical order of
12:47
your last name. Did you Just a bonus.
12:50
Did you not ever write your, like, in
12:52
high school, like, you would make, like, your
12:54
last your first name? That's not a boy
12:56
thing. Cute. I don't think that's a boy
12:58
thing. That's not a boy thing. No. Because
12:59
they they don't change their name. Really, it
13:01
was kind of girly.
13:04
I am in text with my feminine side.
13:05
Can we say it that way? Yeah. You're
13:07
I mean, I feel like that's a better
13:08
way to say it. Sure. And you have
13:09
a lot of friends that were real, so
13:11
I don't know. But you probably saw their
13:13
notebooks, like, when she was
13:15
no? No. This is taking me by surprise.
13:18
So,
13:20
so is it okay. So I love the
13:22
way you phrased that, Ali, and it sounds
13:24
like there's some agreement anyway. It wasn't necessarily
13:27
that you definitely wanted to have kids, but
13:29
you wanted the option and you knew that
13:31
the person that you were with, that wasn't
13:33
gonna be an option with this person, so
13:34
you
13:35
needed to to kinda look for that. So
13:37
I think that,
13:39
availability
13:40
was a was a need. That was kind
13:42
of my situation too, my previous relationship. I
13:45
knew I didn't wanna have kids with him
13:46
because just So it wasn't a matter of
13:48
he didn't wanna have kids. No. I knew
13:50
I didn't wanna have kids with him. So
13:52
that was
13:54
part of the reason that I ended that
13:55
relationship. So, yeah, that was something
13:58
and, like, we worked together in a in
14:01
a raising kids environment, so I knew how
14:05
he would be,
14:07
raising kids. So that was, yeah, something that
14:09
you at least wanted to have the option.
14:12
Okay. Great.
14:14
Anything else on that? On, your needs when
14:17
you first Smart.
14:19
I think I've said this before. Yeah. They're
14:21
like, I needed needed somebody that was smart.
14:22
I needed to meet somebody that was smart.
14:24
Well, you're very smart. I couldn't I couldn't
14:26
do and I had dated
14:28
Yeah. Yeah bluntly stupid before.
14:31
But Yeah. I I discovered that about myself
14:34
previous to meeting my husband and Yeah. Just
14:36
someone who could, like, you know, be your
14:38
equal. Yes. Yeah. And challenge you and
14:41
yeah. Yeah.
14:43
And the good sense of humor, compatibility,
14:45
somebody that respected
14:48
and, like you said, kinda let you, you
14:49
know, not try to overrule what you wanted
14:52
to do type of thing. So, yeah, there
14:53
was I think it was, like, simple needs
14:55
though. Yeah. So with a plan for their
14:57
own life, like, I mean, as young as
14:59
I was, I had my plans. I don't
15:00
think my parents would have blessed anything if,
15:03
you know, if he wasn't if he didn't
15:04
have his own goals.
15:06
Mhmm. Mhmm. I have brothers. So I have,
15:09
I'm 1 of 5, and they're all all
15:11
brothers.
15:12
So I needed someone that could
15:15
be confident
15:17
and be like, that I knew my brothers
15:18
would like, that would wanna be friends with
15:20
my brothers. That was important to me.
15:22
Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.
15:25
In a weird way, I felt like I
15:27
also, at the time, wanted someone to, like,
15:29
take care of me because I was so
15:31
young and felt,
15:34
you know, you watched all the, like, girly
15:36
movies
15:37
and you see all these, like,
15:40
coming on a horse and, you know, like,
15:42
I just I don't know. That's just what
15:45
I envisioned at the time and but I
15:47
didn't really like, I'm hearing all your guys'
15:49
thoughts. I'm like, I definitely was not thinking
15:52
about a lot of these things.
15:55
Yeah. Well, like you said, you wanted him
15:57
to get along with your brothers. I wanted
15:59
him to get along with my friends. I
16:00
wanted my friends because my friends were a
16:02
really big deal to me. I mean, they
16:04
still are, but You're an only child. That's
16:07
Yeah. Because I'm I'm an only child. Exactly.
16:09
And my friends were everything to me and
16:12
I wanted my friends
16:14
to like him.
16:15
It was a really big deal.
16:18
One thing I haven't is that's, like, conspicuously
16:21
absent
16:22
is I haven't heard, like, you wanted a
16:24
smoking hot boyfriend.
16:26
That's interesting. I'm just thinking of it from
16:28
the guy perspective. I wanted to be attracted
16:30
to him. He's not my type. That's fair.
16:33
Yeah. At all. What's that? He was not
16:35
my type. Your your partner was not your
16:36
type? No. You know? Skinny jeans.
16:41
No. You didn't.
16:42
That I completely
16:44
relate to that and how he showed up
16:47
in
16:48
a non American car and I was a
16:51
super American muscle
16:53
kinda gal and I just did not
16:56
did not envision
16:57
that going
17:00
well just because that was a big deal
17:02
for me. It was my childhood. I grew
17:04
up around it and,
17:07
but yeah. I
17:10
mean, he he stole the show though. So
17:13
That's cute.
17:15
Aw. I'm with you on the American car
17:17
thing. I worked for American Steel Company and
17:20
Yeah. Had to be an American car. Mhmm.
17:22
Yeah. That's interesting.
17:24
Cool.
17:25
So nobody was looking for Arthur Fonzarelli.
17:28
It's a bad reference. Who
17:31
is the?
17:33
Hey. I don't know. Nick I don't know
17:36
Nick Carter. Yeah. Carter? How do you pronounce
17:38
that? It's an actual boy boys. Oh, yeah.
17:40
Oh.
17:42
Oh. Well, that Harrison Ford, who says, like,
17:44
a high. We are not. A
17:46
whole man. My boyfriend.
17:48
What's that? Harrison Ford's my boyfriend even though
17:50
he's 80?
17:51
Way more.
17:53
He's older than my parents, so but I
17:55
love that man. Yeah. He is 80.
17:57
Me too.
17:59
Yeah.
18:00
Yeah. Okay. So
18:02
let's flash forward.
18:04
Don't give me the please, don't give me
18:06
the
18:07
transition
18:08
from that to this.
18:10
What are your needs now?
18:12
Okay? So don't we'll get into it, but
18:15
don't tell me, oh, here's the story of
18:17
how my needs change slowly over the next
18:19
20 years. What what are your what are
18:21
you looking for now in a partnership? Honesty.
18:24
Number 1, hands down. Tell me the truth.
18:27
I don't
18:28
care what happened.
18:29
Straightforward, own it immediately.
18:31
And then if I wanna work through it
18:33
with you, I'm gonna work through it. Otherwise,
18:34
I'm out the door. Like, I don't need
18:37
him anymore. That's something I've learned, but I
18:40
choose
18:41
and it's a daily choice more so than
18:44
it ever has been.
18:47
So honesty and safety.
18:50
Wow. I wish you weren't so wishy washy.
18:52
I wish you were till a second. Wow.
18:55
You came out of the block on that.
18:56
There's no gross to it. No kidding. Communication.
19:00
Mhmm.
19:01
Yeah.
19:02
I would add stability,
19:04
like, just knowing
19:07
knowing what's coming, I think.
19:09
Knowing, like, I know
19:11
without a doubt that my husband is going
19:13
to unload the dishwasher. He always unloads the
19:15
dishwasher. Right?
19:17
And that
19:18
makes me feel really safe and stable
19:21
and
19:22
and it's, like, a really important thing to
19:24
me and it means a lot to me
19:26
that he does that. I wouldn't have never
19:28
thought
19:29
15,
19:31
however many years ago,
19:32
that
19:34
someone unloading the dishwasher would be, like would
19:37
make me love my husband more. You know
19:39
what I mean? Like, that's a really important
19:40
thing.
19:42
So can we add to stability consistency?
19:44
Mhmm. There's Oh, that's a good one. Yes.
19:47
What else?
19:51
I need the ability to dream again.
19:53
Woah.
19:55
Yeah. Let's do it. Keep going. I got
19:56
tables, sand
19:58
I'm I'm getting emotional. Oh my god.
20:02
They got,
20:03
you know, every dream I thought I could
20:05
have had,
20:07
just got tabled
20:08
Yeah. If not absolutely burned to the ground.
20:13
And it would be nice to look forward
20:16
to the future and
20:17
have some confidence that, you know,
20:20
maybe one of these days,
20:21
this dream vacation that I've had, you know,
20:24
if I wanna say I I've always grandkids
20:30
together.
20:35
I I haven't even been able to dream
20:36
that we having grandkids together.
20:38
I I haven't even been able to dream
20:40
that we have we will have grandkids together.
20:42
She didn't even know if the marriage was
20:44
gonna last Yeah. Mhmm. Oh. For your daughter.
20:46
Yeah. I could because last
20:49
summer, our oldest went to Greece on this,
20:52
like, incredible
20:53
trip paid for by some her now mother-in-law.
20:57
And
20:58
when
20:59
she
21:00
came back, she and her now husband were
21:03
showing my husband their pictures and stuff. And
21:05
he's like, I wanna I can't, you know,
21:07
I wanna go there. I wanna do all
21:08
these things with you. And I'm like, how
21:10
dare you? For we've been married all this
21:12
time and I have wanted to do all
21:14
of these things and you didn't even wanna
21:15
live to be 60. And now you wanna
21:17
go with me to Europe? Like, screw you.
21:19
I don't wanna go there with you.
21:21
And, you know, because course, it's a dream
21:23
vacation. But, yeah, same thing. It's like you
21:24
just put
21:26
a summon in all my plans and dreams
21:28
for all those areas. Whether we whether we
21:31
when we retire, we just retire and sit
21:33
around our house like a bunch of couple
21:35
of old farts. On your rocking chairs. You
21:37
know?
21:38
But that we're gonna do it together, you
21:41
know, and then we can have we're gonna
21:43
have a retirement together that there's anything we
21:45
can have together.
21:47
Yeah.
21:49
Wow.
21:50
That's powerful, Ellie. Thank you.
21:53
I like that because, like, a year ago,
21:55
we were talking in the car one time
21:57
about, like, down the road and, like, imagining
21:59
that
22:01
and shortly after, like, I shut down because
22:04
the fear
22:05
of addiction and everything coming back in. Like,
22:08
I was almost mad at myself for dreaming
22:10
in that dream. Mhmm.
22:12
It's like I had to shut it down,
22:15
and we were in, you know, we were
22:17
in a crisis then for so many years
22:19
there.
22:19
Oh, it was just and not even necessarily
22:22
related to addiction, but it was just crisis
22:24
after crisis after crisis after crisis, and I
22:27
just got to the point, like, I couldn't
22:29
even think about next week. It's just what
22:31
do I have to do to get through
22:33
today and tomorrow? And I know that's actually
22:35
how you deal with addiction. Just get through
22:37
today, you know, the next minute, the next
22:38
day, the one day at a time, but
22:41
it's it always seemed to me like one
22:43
day at a time, well, I've gotta have
22:44
some hopes Mhmm. You know, out there. And
22:48
I just had to I couldn't afford to
22:52
to have them anymore. Kristen, you brought kids
22:55
into the conversation,
22:56
so I'm gonna come back to you and
22:58
ask.
23:01
Are
23:02
when you think about your needs today, is
23:04
there a need because your kids are a
23:05
little younger than some of the other kids
23:07
not everybody, but a little younger than some
23:08
of the other people's kids around this table.
23:10
Is there a need for a partner to
23:12
share in the responsibility
23:14
Yeah. In the upbringing?
23:16
Yeah. Yeah. I,
23:18
I get pretty resentful sometimes,
23:23
just because
23:25
and it's not even that I
23:27
mind, like, carrying the load,
23:30
but
23:31
I feel like I'm not appreciated.
23:34
And that's just kind of a given, and
23:36
he doesn't
23:37
acknowledge
23:38
all that I'm doing.
23:41
He's in recovery, but he's still very,
23:44
kind of parallel lives still, so kind of
23:45
in his own world.
23:47
And,
23:48
and I think he's trying to be a
23:50
better I do see him trying to a
23:52
better father, and he and he is, and
23:54
our kids adore him. And so I like
23:56
that he's showing up for that.
24:00
But,
24:01
yeah, just
24:02
I still do all of it, and so
24:04
I just wish that,
24:06
he would see that or just be able
24:08
to step in a little bit that it
24:10
wouldn't be so hard for him to step
24:12
in to do it.
24:14
So hopefully, someday.
24:16
Yeah.
24:18
Lauren, your partner is
24:20
man in the household while you're here and
24:22
with the kids and doing the kids stuff
24:24
and kid decisions and all of that.
24:26
Is that a relief? Because there was a
24:27
time when you didn't feel
24:30
comfortable leaving it in that situation.
24:31
I think so
24:33
because I was even nervous to the night
24:35
before. Like, I was crying the night before
24:37
coming because I was like, I don't wanna
24:39
go. I don't wanna go.
24:41
And something Were you like, Matt thinks Fonzie's
24:44
cool. Wow.
24:45
I
24:46
don't know. God, this is gonna be terrible.
24:47
She doesn't even know who Fonzie is.
24:50
I can't picture him in my head, but
24:52
I know that he is. Hey.
24:55
Because for his whole life, our whole marriage,
24:58
he's in the military. So he's gone. And
25:01
I do everything because
25:03
he's gone. And even when he's there, like,
25:05
I know the things so I can do
25:07
them better. And I know the way they're
25:08
supposed to be done. I know what the
25:09
kids like.
25:11
And so leaving, like, I've never left the
25:14
kids for more than
25:16
a night maybe, really.
25:19
So I think
25:21
as soon as I got to the house
25:23
and maybe even in the car and then
25:24
I was like,
25:26
okay. One of the things for him, I
25:28
thought like security was something I always wanted
25:30
but like listening to things.
25:32
And I don't know the word for it
25:33
but like I just want,
25:35
like,
25:37
like, a piece. Like, just because we've always
25:39
been go go go. He's deployed and he's
25:42
done this and we start kids young and
25:44
everything's been so fast.
25:46
And he's naturally like a very, like, motivated
25:48
person.
25:49
Good or bad.
25:52
That, like, I want somebody who just can
25:53
be like, it's okay. Like, if I'm freaking
25:56
out to not have somebody also, like, hype
25:58
me up because
25:59
I don't need a hype man. My head's
26:00
already doing it.
26:01
And so, like, I want someone to just
26:03
be like, alright. It's fine. Like, we're fine.
26:05
Like, the kids are fine. They're at home.
26:07
They're fine.
26:08
They're doing
26:10
great. Everybody's,
26:11
like, not just alive, but they're thriving. They're
26:14
they're getting froyo and doing all the things.
26:17
He's had birthday parties and church to go
26:19
to and stuff. So
26:21
I think
26:22
leaving here, I I do feel like, I'm
26:23
really happy I came
26:25
because I feel I think it's was a
26:27
good idea. So thank you everybody who convinced
26:29
me on Facebook to come.
26:32
I don't know if I answered your question.
26:33
You did. You actually added I think you
26:35
added something besides kids. What I heard
26:38
was
26:39
that you have a desire for I mean,
26:41
after all of you, after you've been through
26:42
the trauma and chaos of living with addiction,
26:47
you wanted a sense of peacefulness. I guess
26:49
I'm choosing a word that you didn't use,
26:51
but you and you kinda want him to
26:53
be part of delivering.
26:55
That you want him to make you
26:57
feel like the peace is real real and
27:00
Yeah. Or at least not be the cause
27:02
of the stress. Yeah. I think those are
27:03
two different things, but they're related and important.
27:06
I can find my own peace Yeah. If
27:08
he's causing the stress, but then he has
27:09
to get out the picture.
27:11
Lately, he's been peaceful, but
27:13
definitely not
27:14
be the agitator like he was. Well and
27:17
I kind of when you were talking, Lauren,
27:18
the word that kinda kept him came to
27:20
mind
27:21
for me was, like, a sense of contentment
27:23
because Matt was always go go go. He
27:25
never seemed happy with what we were doing.
27:27
There always need to be more of this
27:28
or more of that
27:29
and and moving trying to figure out the
27:31
new scheme and how we're gonna do this
27:33
and you know it was just like he
27:35
was constantly chasing after something that was never
27:39
gonna be enough and that's kinda how I
27:40
felt. It was, like, it's never gonna be
27:41
enough. It's never gonna be enough. So having
27:44
its peace, but there is, like, a contentment
27:45
and calmness in your day to day lives
27:47
to say, I am happy where I am
27:49
and being present. I think that's, like, the
27:51
perfect word,
27:52
actually. Contentment? Yeah. That's my word. Thank you,
27:55
Jerry. Okay. Welcome.
27:56
Wrote it down. That's good. That's great. This
27:59
is all gonna go into the show notes
28:01
at the beginning. Writing that paragraph is hard
28:02
for me and you guys are doing it
28:03
for me, so thank you. That's great.
28:07
Nikki, you
28:09
you have, a daughter, a beautiful daughter, an
28:12
active, eager, excited daughter, and you shared with
28:15
us that
28:16
you like the fact that
28:18
she wants
28:19
you and your husband to both like, she's
28:22
you know, where's dad? Is he gonna is
28:23
he gonna go on this bike ride? Bike
28:25
riding is big for you guys right now.
28:26
Is he gonna go on this bike ride
28:27
with us? Does that what is that
28:30
when we talk about your needs being met,
28:34
and we know what a great mom you
28:35
are and how important parenthood is to you,
28:38
does that give you kind of a warm
28:40
fuzzy to see your daughter caring whether your
28:43
husband is participating in things or not?
28:47
Yeah. Because that was never the case,
28:50
before.
28:52
She never really
28:53
when he was
28:55
drinking and even
28:57
I mean, we didn't know he was drinking,
28:59
but the tension was there and there was
29:01
clearly issues going on. But
29:04
that I mean, she didn't even used to
29:06
welcome him at the door when he came
29:08
home. I mean, that was never a thing.
29:10
And for her to go from that extreme
29:12
to,
29:14
is dad home tonight? Like, you know, like,
29:16
excited to spend time with him and
29:21
now we're biking as a family and it's
29:23
almost like she doesn't even need to ask
29:25
me if we're going. Like, she's more concerned
29:28
about whether he's going because I can do
29:30
it with her all the time because I'm
29:32
home with her. So, like, we can go
29:34
out whenever we want, but she's very much
29:38
included
29:39
including to him now.
29:41
And that definitely warms
29:44
and makes me feel good. That's great.
29:47
That's great.
29:48
Melanie,
29:49
your husband passed away.
29:52
He died from this horrific disease of alcoholism.
29:55
You very bravely and boldly shared your story
29:59
with us on the intoxicated
30:00
podcast just a few episodes ago. And so,
30:03
listener, if you haven't heard that, we recommend
30:05
that you go back and listen to it.
30:06
It's important
30:07
even if you're still with your partner. I
30:09
mean, the messages, the themes are super important
30:11
from that episode.
30:13
But my question to you is,
30:15
now that reconciliation
30:16
with your partner is not that's not something
30:18
that's on the table. So it's not something
30:21
that you you would spend time,
30:24
other than mourning that. I mean, the mourning
30:26
process is important, but it's not something that
30:28
you are actively working on or pursuing. One
30:31
of the things that you've shared,
30:33
and you've gotten some chuckles from us, so
30:34
we appreciate it when you've shared that you're
30:37
just gonna keep collecting dogs. Like, let's just
30:39
add to the dog. That's the plan. Mhmm.
30:42
And I know that Sounds great. I know
30:43
I know that it gets little chuckles, but
30:46
I think there's some truth
30:48
to it too. Like,
30:51
do you it doesn't sound to me like
30:53
you have a need for another romantic partner
30:56
necessarily in your life. Can you talk about
30:58
that a little bit? Yeah. That's not something
31:00
that I,
31:01
feel the need to have,
31:03
or I'm looking for, or
31:06
want the trouble
31:09
of
31:10
trying to,
31:12
I guess,
31:13
you you know, dating at my age doesn't
31:15
seem it have any appeal to me at
31:17
all.
31:19
And because
31:21
it
31:23
was, I was with my husband for a
31:24
long time before anything was a problem. So
31:27
how am I supposed to trust that the
31:29
same thing won't
31:31
happen down the road with whoever new partner
31:33
that I might have?
31:36
So, yeah, it's not I don't I don't
31:38
feel like I feel like I can meet
31:39
my own needs now, and that started
31:43
long before he was gone too that I
31:46
had to become more and more self sufficient
31:48
because
31:50
he wasn't taking care of my needs at
31:52
that point. So, yeah, I kinda got used
31:55
to just doing it myself. I don't know
31:57
if I answered your question. You did. So
31:59
that was almost we talk a lot about
32:00
detachment. Mhmm. And one of the things that
32:02
Sherry and I have come
32:04
to really understand, I'd say, in the last
32:06
maybe 6 months more than we ever did
32:08
before was,
32:09
detachment isn't a tactic that you read about
32:12
in a book and then you go and
32:13
you try to employ it. Detachment
32:16
is
32:17
a state that you reach. It's a result
32:20
of the chaos and the trauma that you've
32:23
experienced.
32:24
So you reached a point where you recognized
32:27
in your relationship when he was still here
32:29
with us that you had to do all
32:31
these things for yourself. And so
32:34
it's not like you just said,
32:36
you know, I'm a I'm a 20
32:39
24 woman, and I'm gonna 24 year old
32:41
woman. 2024. The year. 2024. Okay.
32:45
Sorry. I just wanna You're showing me 20
32:47
and 24 years old.
32:49
I'm just clarifying. I'm setting the scene in
32:51
my mind.
32:52
Yeah. No. But yeah. You're You all looked
32:53
at me funny when I said something.
32:56
But I don't. Right.
32:59
Right. But so,
33:01
that's a great example of how your needs
33:03
changed.
33:04
The things that you had previously hoped to
33:07
be able to rely on a partner
33:09
to take care of or to be a
33:11
part of, you no longer needed that. It
33:14
doesn't sound like you have any interest in
33:15
going back to that almost neediness. No. Well,
33:18
but but it wasn't like kinda like Ally
33:20
said, I had to give up those
33:23
dreams and hopes of,
33:25
you know, even simple things like being, you
33:28
know, 80 80 years old and walking down
33:29
the street holding hands. I mean, that was
33:33
we we've all seen those little old couples.
33:34
Right? Yeah. And the the promise of that
33:37
was
33:38
gone long before. So it wasn't like I
33:40
chose
33:42
to not need him, but, you know,
33:45
the my kids
33:47
are grown. I'm not looking for anybody to
33:50
help me with that.
33:51
Yeah. I don't need it. I just don't
33:53
need it.
33:54
I think one of the really important things
33:55
that you pointed out, and I wonder if
33:57
anyone else would like to respond to this,
33:59
you it's almost like a risk reward
34:02
when you think about the potential
34:09
progression of I mean, that's the
34:13
di progression
34:14
of I mean, that's the diabolical part of
34:17
about alcoholism. You can meet someone that's perfectly
34:19
normal and
34:20
and,
34:22
you know, got all their senses about
34:24
them and and seem like the perfect partner.
34:26
But then you never know if the slippery
34:28
slope is gonna get that person too. And
34:29
it's just not worth the risk.
34:31
Right. That's super important.
34:33
Yep. Does anyone else even though, you know,
34:35
even you're still with your partner, do you
34:37
relate to that kind
34:39
of emotional sentiment, that that feeling of,
34:43
I don't know if it's worth putting the
34:44
trust,
34:45
you know, trying to rebuild the trust, try
34:47
to try to get back there with
34:49
Or would you ever trust anyone again? I
34:51
know, like, there were times when I would
34:53
think about our marriage
34:54
marriage ending, and I'm like, no. I'm not
34:56
gonna take that chance. I mean,
34:58
we joke and we say you can't, like,
35:01
throw a rock without hitting an alcoholic or
35:03
someone who has an addiction. So why would
35:05
I put myself out there
35:06
with this ocean of potential partners
35:10
where there is some sort of addiction,
35:13
you know, whether it's alcohol or, you know,
35:16
gaming or gambling or porn, I'm like, I
35:18
would it wouldn't seem like the reward would
35:21
be worth the risk. Yeah. I'm also a
35:23
great pessimist, so and I would just have,
35:26
like, all kinds of animals, not just cats.
35:29
That's good. There's a good variety.
35:32
So, I mean, for me, I'm like, no
35:33
way. You know? And even at 49 years
35:36
of age, I'm like, no. I'd rather be
35:38
alone at this point and with Yeah. People
35:40
that I really feel comfortable with. Because we'll
35:42
carry our trust issues with us. It doesn't
35:44
matter who the person is or who the
35:46
partner is. Mhmm. Even if it's not her
35:49
current spouse.
35:50
Yeah.
35:51
And that's why I think it was so
35:53
important for me to,
35:55
like,
35:56
get, you know, in touch with a counselor.
35:59
1, we were realizing that even though the
36:02
alcohol was gone and we were
36:04
not in any sort of therapy
36:06
together,
36:07
I needed to work on some things. So
36:10
maybe,
36:11
you know, maybe
36:13
I would look at it now that the
36:15
reward would be worth the risk
36:17
after working on myself, but at the time,
36:20
no way would I think of that.
36:22
That might be something that would be, like,
36:24
hopefully, it never happens, but I think it'd
36:25
be a long time down the road.
36:27
Yeah. A long time down the road. You
36:29
have to have a lot of memories to
36:31
forget.
36:33
Hey. So I still didn't hear,
36:36
smoking hot partner as on the needs
36:39
list. I mean, maybe for, you know, a
36:41
fling, but Yeah. To settle down. You're usually
36:44
dumb guys too. Right? Like, you don't tell
36:46
me to sit right now. They aren't gonna
36:48
be smart and intellectual and I'll try to
36:51
update my references. No Ryan Reynolds. No
36:54
the guy in Twisters. What's his name? Ryan
36:56
Reynolds. So I know him. Yeah. I know
36:59
him. Such a big exception. Yeah. Yeah.
37:02
Glenn Kyle. Yes. Ryan Reynolds is a gorgeous
37:05
human.
37:06
Tom Brady is beautiful, very smart, also.
37:09
Daniel Reeves. There we go.
37:11
Yes. But I'm gonna I'm gonna say, like,
37:14
when thinking about, like, attractiveness or being attracted
37:17
to someone,
37:18
you get to know them and they become
37:20
more attractive. Right? Yeah. That's true. I knew
37:22
my husband
37:24
for
37:25
a couple years before
37:27
we started dating
37:29
and
37:30
I didn't think he was unattractive. I just
37:32
didn't think anything of him. Like I just
37:33
thought he was the guy
37:35
that I knew, just the guy I worked
37:36
with and that's it you know. I didn't,
37:39
that was it, period, that's the end of
37:40
the sentence. And so but then once I
37:40
got to know him I was like oh
37:40
if period. That's the end of the sentence.
37:42
And so but then once I got to
37:43
know him, I was like, oh, he is
37:45
really attractive and, you know, that is, like,
37:48
something that And there has to be chemistry,
37:50
like Right. I mean, like, all these people
37:51
were listing, you know, you could be this
37:53
close to them and you're like, like, I
37:55
feel nothing for I mean, you're you're beautiful
37:57
to look at, but go away. Kanye doesn't
37:59
want deodorant. I heard
38:01
He's got some weird little
38:04
I agree with
38:05
you because, like, when my husband was sober
38:08
for that dry, drunk year ish time frame,
38:11
like, I was so attracted to him for
38:14
that time frame. Like, I just loved him
38:15
so much.
38:16
And
38:17
before he relapsed.
38:25
I think, like, what you need and the
38:27
more they're supplying that, the more attracted you
38:29
are to them sometimes.
38:31
And then vice versa,
38:33
when they're are deep in the drinking and
38:35
deep
38:36
in whatever
38:37
is happening even though you can recognize
38:40
that it's the alcohol and it's not the
38:42
person, you can
38:44
become not attracted to them for that time
38:47
too. Oh, I was definitely attracted to my
38:50
husband when he drank. You were attracted to
38:52
it? Uh-huh.
38:53
Because it brought out his
38:56
social butterfly
38:57
and, like, it changed his personality.
38:59
But were you once you knew it was
39:01
a problem?
39:03
Of course not. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I'm just
39:05
saying that I can,
39:07
you know Yeah. Shit. Served as a social
39:09
lubricant Yeah. In your particular case was cultural.
39:13
He might do. He always hated it when
39:15
he drank. Like, I mean, that was our
39:17
biggest fight for until I knew he was
39:18
an alcoholic for 20 plus years.
39:21
It would be a fight of me, like,
39:23
can you just, like,
39:24
at the end of the yeah. Can you
39:26
just lay off? Like, you don't need to
39:27
constantly be refilling your glass. And I had
39:29
I mean, I had no idea. There's so
39:31
many you know, looking back, there's so
39:33
many things. There's just, like,
39:35
my bulb, you know, it all goes off.
39:37
But but I was never ever attracted to
39:40
any drink. Never.
39:42
Lauren, you talked about how
39:44
he when he was in his
39:46
his sober period between,
39:49
you know, before his relapse and now back
39:52
into
39:53
long term sobriety and recovery,
39:55
during during that period before the relapse that
39:57
you were attracted to them. After the relapse,
39:59
does it make it hard harder for you
40:02
to trust and find find that attraction or
40:03
that,
40:13
I can't wait to hear what you're gonna
40:15
say. Yes.
40:18
Yes. It has been
40:20
very hard. I think think it took I
40:22
think I said the other day, it took
40:23
until, like, this year to really like him.
40:26
And really be like, okay. I like being
40:28
around you. Or to feel like
40:30
like I I I missed his company or
40:33
something. And
40:34
then being attracted to him, like
40:37
yeah. When he relapsed and it was bad
40:39
and it was just
40:41
all that was kind of built. Even if
40:42
it was, like, a dry drunk and, like,
40:44
he wasn't in recovery at that point, it
40:46
was still he was meeting a lot of
40:48
the needs
40:49
that I knew. Like, he was, like, reliable
40:52
and he was calm and, you know,
40:55
all the things. So, yes,
40:57
it has been
40:59
probably one of the biggest struggles
41:01
now that he's
41:02
in sobriety and,
41:03
like, actively working on his recovery. It's been
41:05
one of the biggest things that we have
41:07
to deal with.
41:08
To find trust that it's gonna stick around
41:11
and stay this way All of it. And
41:13
to like him. I like that you used
41:15
that. Who else wants to like, there's love
41:18
and like. And I always thought as the
41:19
alcoholic, the most important thing I can do
41:22
is make sure that Sherry loves me.
41:24
But I think
41:26
sorry to put words in your mouth, but
41:28
love was more of a consistent thing, but
41:30
there was a long time when you didn't
41:32
like me. Is that fair? Yeah. And I
41:33
didn't like When I I would love you
41:35
for so many things like being the father
41:38
of my our children and
41:40
I loved you because, you know, we were
41:42
partners in so many ways but then
41:44
like I didn't
41:46
like being around you when you drink I
41:47
didn't enjoy it at all like you said
41:49
Nicole I those are our arguments like I
41:51
didn't like your company because when you were
41:53
drinking, you were not the company that I
41:55
would want to keep at those
41:57
at that point.
41:58
Does anyone else wanna chime in on Yeah.
42:00
Like versus love, Kristen? Yeah. For sure. I
42:03
I don't know that I like my husband
42:04
right now. He's not that likable, though, and
42:06
he doesn't I don't know that he likes
42:07
himself right right now.
42:09
Wow. So it's hard. Like, he's not quite
42:12
at the year 1 year mark yet, so
42:14
he's still kinda digging himself out of the
42:16
hole, still in depression and still healing.
42:19
And I'm hopeful he'll get back to the
42:21
person he was, which was wonderful. You know?
42:24
But,
42:25
you know, you think about, like, when you
42:27
when I met him, I don't know that
42:29
I would even go on a date with
42:30
him right now just because he's just
42:34
blah. You know?
42:36
Yeah. I told my kids last summer when
42:39
my husband and I were separated,
42:42
because I didn't think we were gonna make
42:43
it
42:44
that because the my oldest was, you know,
42:47
well, don't
42:53
unconditional.
42:56
He he has done something that has hurt
42:57
me so bad, not unconditional. He
42:59
he has done something that has hurt me
43:00
so bad that I don't see a path
43:02
forward right now. And whereas the kids, I
43:05
don't care what you do, you know, that's
43:06
unconditional love. But with him, it's
43:07
love. But with him, it's not. It's it's
43:10
totally conditional.
43:11
And I'm starting sometimes to like him now.
43:14
He's,
43:15
a little over a year.
43:17
But, you know, that that's
43:19
it's I'm just on this side alike so
43:22
it's real easy for me to tip back
43:23
to the other side. Is not enough. Yeah.
43:26
If love is not enough to carry I
43:28
mean, it's enough to keep me choosing, yes,
43:30
day to day. But then if those disliked
43:32
days were or or if he were to
43:35
fall back on drinking, I think it would
43:36
be a lot easier to Yeah.
43:39
It's enough to give me hope right now,
43:40
but
43:42
it's still
43:43
hard. Yeah. Mhmm. It was really, like, a
43:45
daily thing of do I like you today?
43:47
Yeah. Yeah. Do I like you at the
43:49
end of the day? And one thing could
43:51
have been said that would mean nothing that
43:53
it would make me think, no. Today, I
43:54
don't like you. Yeah. Exactly. Or the way
43:56
your photos look if you're, you know, you
43:58
didn't sleep well last night and not to
43:59
your own Yeah. Fault, but all these things
44:01
you've done in the past, now I can't
44:02
think about anything else. One negative comment will
44:05
set me off too. Just, like, that little
44:07
bit of pessimist side that reminds me of
44:10
how he was when he was drinking.
44:12
It's triggering.
44:13
Yeah.
44:14
I think that's so
44:19
undervalued.
44:20
Is that the right word?
44:21
Like, not enough
44:23
people talk about how quick it is to
44:25
go
44:26
in and out of, like,
44:28
with somebody, especially through
44:31
our process.
44:33
Like, it's not just a normal marriage type
44:36
of situation at this point. We're like, oh,
44:39
we're mad because we got in a fight
44:40
over the dishwasher.
44:42
Like,
44:43
it's
44:44
so it goes so much deeper, but yet
44:48
it's it's just not discussed. It's not
44:51
no one would understand it
44:53
Mhmm. Unless it was one of us. Mhmm.
44:56
We fought because he was mowing the lawn
44:58
in the middle of the afternoon.
45:00
Who gets mad at their husband for that?
45:02
Except for someone who's triggered because he's doing
45:04
something random at the random it's a 100
45:06
degrees. Uh-huh. And we fought, like, well, he
45:08
didn't fight me, but I
45:10
internally
45:11
fought him and externally fought him. But, like,
45:13
things like that, like the dishwasher.
45:15
Yes. So true. Who What any new things
45:17
Was it because he used to drink beer
45:19
when he mowed the lawn? Like, what what's
45:20
the trigger? Not fear.
45:23
Because
45:24
he
45:25
because it's just something that makes no sense,
45:28
and things would get done that made no
45:29
sense. It's like, this makes no sense for
45:31
you to be doing this right now. And
45:33
because we had to go to a birthday
45:34
party. So it's a reminder of a radical
45:36
an hour later. Yeah. We had things to
45:38
do and it's like, why are you mowing
45:40
right now? So it's it's really those things.
45:42
But CNI used to have that just from
45:44
him laughing.
45:45
Why are you laughing right now? Like,
45:48
I used to question it because it he
45:50
wasn't this, like,
45:52
giggly kinda guy. Yes. So like, anytime he
45:55
would like, you know, start laughing, I would
45:58
get so mad because I'm like, what does
46:00
that mean?
46:01
Like, well, what am I missing? Am I
46:03
high is he hiding something again? Like,
46:05
it just spiraled from there.
46:08
So the need, one of the lists,
46:10
one of the words that I wrote down
46:12
in the list of needs that you have
46:13
now that need to be met was consistency.
46:16
And it sounds like this that's what this
46:18
part of the conversation is all about. That
46:21
your partner is predictable
46:22
and so you don't have to go back
46:24
into detective mode as we say. Right? And
46:27
wonder wonder what what do I not know
46:29
that's really happening?
46:30
I call it my spidey sense. Yeah. And
46:33
I tell and I tell them that my
46:34
spidey senses are going off. I don't know
46:35
if something's off, but my spidey senses are
46:37
going off.
46:39
And it's good and it's a superpower and
46:40
you recognize it but it's not one you
46:42
particularly like to use. Right and it's not
46:44
necessarily like a laser.
46:46
You know it's more like,
46:48
like one of those spotlights that throws up
46:50
in the sky.
46:53
I'm trying to come up with you. Yeah.
46:55
I'm trying to a better analogy for that.
46:57
Like, it's just, like, a Spidey sense, you're
46:59
like, I feel something is off and I
47:01
don't know what it is. Right. And, you
47:03
know, there is no, like, okay, this is
47:05
exactly what it is. Yeah. And you're like
47:07
questioning everything. Everything is
47:10
feeling unsafe. Yeah. Everything is gonna set you
47:13
off. Every little, like, erratic behavior of mowing
47:17
the lawn on a 100 degree afternoon. Like,
47:19
that just all throws us off.
47:21
And then that puts us in this, like,
47:23
unsafe, unsecure
47:25
position where then we're walking on eggshells because
47:27
we're looking around trying to analyze
47:30
every situation, overanalyze it. And then
47:33
sometimes we turn it back in on ourselves.
47:35
Like, are we just being crazy?
47:38
And then we get really, like,
47:40
self defeating.
47:41
Like, we're kinda beating ourselves up. And it
47:43
makes had it for so long. It makes
47:45
them think we're crazy. Yeah. Like, when you
47:48
fight your husband because
47:50
he mows the lawn at the wrong time
47:53
for you,
47:54
you know, it makes them
47:56
think we're crazy and then accuse us of
47:59
being crazy and then that makes us More
48:01
critical. More mad. Yeah. And it's like a
48:03
cycle.
48:04
You know that I've kind of been okay
48:06
with that when he's like you're not making
48:08
sense and I'm like,
48:09
well, I want Thank you. Potkettle,
48:12
New Year's. The I was like, I don't
48:14
understand what's going on here.
48:16
You know? I don't understand why you got
48:18
angry at me. I don't understand
48:21
why you were storming or, you know, storming
48:24
out at Thanksgiving. I don't understand
48:27
what you know, why all of this is
48:28
happening,
48:30
because we were still in that stage of
48:33
always seeing things as individual incidents instead of
48:36
Mhmm. Over an overall pattern.
48:38
And so, yeah, when I act a little
48:40
crazy,
48:41
I'm kind of okay with that. And I'm
48:43
kind of okay with him having to cope
48:45
with that. And I know this sounds angry,
48:47
but I am, like, I am really okay
48:49
with him coping with my crazy sometimes.
48:52
I'm with you on the hook. Yeah. That
48:54
sounds like a really healthy self esteem, which
48:57
is what recovery on both sides is all
48:58
about to me. You're not worried about,
49:02
what somebody else thinks of you, whether that's
49:04
your partner or not. And that's That's awesome.
49:05
I do worry about that. I don't I
49:07
don't want to Okay. Put it out there
49:08
like but I do worry what he thinks
49:10
about me. But at the same time, I'm
49:12
like, you know, if you have to cope
49:13
with some of my crazy, I'm okay with
49:15
that. I like that. Yeah. I think I
49:18
think this is a really, really important
49:20
part of this conversation because
49:22
the stakes are so high for y'all.
49:25
Lauren sees mowing a lawn at a 100
49:28
degrees in the middle of the day,
49:30
and
49:31
she starts an argument about it because it's
49:34
erratic and doesn't seem right.
49:36
And if I'm your husband, I'm like, Jesus,
49:38
what do I gotta do to please this
49:40
woman?
49:41
I'm I'm doing my chore, chore, and I'm
49:43
fighting the elements, and
49:45
I'm making it happen. But that's not what
49:47
it's about for you. For you is,
49:49
this this is the behavior that I experienced
49:52
when the kind of worst segment of my
49:54
life was taking place, and I can't go
49:56
back there. And so I just think that's
49:59
really, really important for the folks on my
50:01
side of the the fence, the alcoholics, to
50:03
understand.
50:05
It's
50:06
what it's about is how high the stakes
50:08
are because
50:10
you're behaving in a way that
50:12
you you have set boundaries and you have
50:14
in your head said, I'm not gonna I'm
50:15
not going back there. Right? I'm not going
50:17
back there no matter what. And you're doing
50:19
the thing that makes me think you wanna
50:21
go back there.
50:22
Well, the problem was too that I didn't
50:24
realize that I was triggered by it. Like,
50:26
I thought I was just mad about it.
50:27
And then I didn't piece that together until,
50:30
like, 2 days later that I Well, you
50:31
should've listened to this episode anyway. I know.
50:34
So I feel like it didn't even have
50:35
to be, like, an argument with your spouse.
50:37
It could've easily been an internal argument with
50:40
yourself, and then you have to figure out
50:42
how am I gonna get out of
50:44
this and, like, that's when your recovery piece
50:45
comes in and how you have to figure
50:47
out how you're going to heal from your
50:49
own triggers. I know for
50:51
a while, it was touch and go with
50:55
how to move forward from his triggers and
50:57
my triggers. I know for a long time
50:59
he expected me to just avoid
51:01
his triggers.
51:02
And I'm like, it could be popcorn. Like,
51:04
I have no idea what how to, you
51:06
know,
51:07
prevent your triggers from happening. But, like,
51:11
they're your your triggers are your responsibility.
51:15
And it's it doesn't always need to be
51:18
an actual
51:19
argument with your spouse, but an argument with
51:21
yourself
51:22
and going, oh, what am I gonna do
51:24
to get this out of my head and
51:25
move past it?
51:26
And that's that's hard.
51:30
Yeah. I think it's also okay if we
51:31
don't even know what they all are yet.
51:34
Right. Because it's a process for us too.
51:37
Right. Sometimes you don't know until it comes
51:39
up. Yeah. Like, you didn't know that was
51:40
gonna be a trigger for you. Yeah. I
51:42
call it feeling spiky.
51:43
Yeah. Like, I'm feeling spiky today. I can't
51:46
put my finger on it, but I'm feeling
51:47
spiky. And if I figure it out, I'll
51:49
let you know. Mhmm. Yeah. But in the
51:51
meantime, you might wanna avoid me.
51:54
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
51:56
And just don't ask any questions
51:58
unless this is what can I bring you?
52:01
Sometimes even that question. Sometimes that's not exactly
52:04
way. Why don't you know. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
52:06
How can you not read my mind?
52:10
So we talked about
52:12
what your needs were
52:13
in the way back machine, and we talked
52:15
about what your needs are now.
52:17
Now let's talk a little bit about the
52:19
transition
52:20
because I think there's a number of things
52:21
at play here. Obviously, you've all been through
52:23
a very traumatic, very chaotic,
52:26
very
52:27
unfair
52:28
situation that you've had to survive.
52:31
So that's a factor.
52:32
But you've also,
52:35
grown older and wiser and matured over that
52:37
time too. Some of you have had
52:40
kids as well during this time.
52:42
What are the influences on how your needs
52:45
have changed? And do you ever think about
52:47
this? Do you
52:48
say, I need
52:49
consistency
52:50
and stability
52:52
and peace
52:53
because I've been in an alcoholic
52:55
relationship? Or is that just because you've matured
52:57
and you're you're further along down the path
53:00
now?
53:01
I think it's both. I mean, I, you
53:04
know, I I was 21 or 22 and
53:06
now I'm 35
53:07
and so of course my needs are gonna
53:09
change. I mean, my needs and my friendships
53:11
have also
53:13
changed. Right? My needs and
53:15
like my career have also changed. Like everything
53:17
changes as you get older. But on the
53:20
same
53:21
hand, on the same hand, we- yeah, I'92ve
53:24
been in this relationship and we'92ve experienced alcoholism
53:27
together and
53:29
that has definitely skewed my,
53:34
my vision of
53:36
or it skewed like, how I think my
53:39
life is gonna turn out. Whether it's positive
53:41
or negative, it could go either way,
53:44
but I think it's just
53:46
it just changes your perspective
53:48
on things. I think that it shines a
53:50
light on
53:52
you you've been without the peace and the
53:55
contentment
53:56
because you're in the alcoholic relationship.
53:58
If it was just a normal
54:00
marriage
54:02
where that wasn't an
54:03
issue, those things are still needs, but it's
54:05
not
54:07
as highlighted
54:09
because you didn't have it. Those were all
54:11
taken. We weren't safe. We weren't
54:13
loved and cared for the way we were
54:15
promised. So
54:17
those things become even more important.
54:20
It's not just the ages because of the,
54:22
you know, it's still important otherwise, but it's
54:25
it's the lack thereof that made it
54:27
even more important. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't
54:29
know if any of us could say if
54:31
we weren't and if we hadn't been through
54:33
what we've been through,
54:34
what our needs
54:36
would be now. If it or if it's
54:37
part of just growing
54:39
older and wiser
54:41
that your needs change and having had, like,
54:43
you know, our biological clock for most of
54:45
us is done ticking. So maybe not a
54:47
list.
54:48
For some of us, it's it's done ticking
54:50
by a long shot. But,
54:52
you know, so that's certainly not
54:54
something that's going on. But
54:57
Yeah. I think, like, as I go through
54:59
this process and, like, and try to grow
55:01
through it, I am trying to be
55:04
more mindful of the journey
55:06
and more appreciative.
55:08
So even when I get into that place
55:10
where I feel like my needs aren't being
55:12
met,
55:13
I'm really trying to look and be like,
55:15
okay. Well,
55:16
it's still so much better. Like, oh my
55:18
gosh. We went to a baseball game. And
55:20
I remember last year when we went to
55:22
a baseball game, and and it was awful.
55:24
And I had all these anxiety,
55:26
and this was peaceful. This was fun. You
55:29
know? Or we went out, you know,
55:31
for a mini for a long weekend and
55:33
it was drama free. Wow. Like, this was
55:36
really nice, you know. So even if I
55:38
don't have
55:39
that,
55:41
connection
55:43
and where my relationship needs as a wife
55:45
are being met,
55:46
I'm in a better place and he's allowing
55:49
me to be in a better place. Well,
55:51
in some ways I feel like maybe I
55:53
wouldn't have matured as much as I have
55:56
if I hadn't been through
55:58
this situation.
56:00
You know,
56:01
like I always say certain events that happened
56:05
catapulted me into adulthood.
56:07
You know, like I wasn't ready
56:09
and
56:10
it just happened because of circumstances.
56:13
And
56:14
I would've gotten older and I would've matured,
56:16
but maybe not as much and maybe not
56:18
in the same way.
56:20
Edie, a lot of people say
56:22
that they wouldn't wish the experience that you've
56:24
been through, that all of you been through
56:26
on your worst enemy, but at the same
56:28
time,
56:29
you wouldn't
56:30
want to not have had the experience because
56:33
of the knowledge that you take away. Right.
56:35
Are you one of those people that say
56:36
that? Yeah. For sure. I mean,
56:39
I
56:41
it's hard because I think like if I
56:43
knew now
56:44
that all of that was gonna happen,
56:47
would I still,
56:49
you know, like, wanna be with my partner?
56:51
Would I still have chosen to marry him
56:53
him and all of that?
56:54
I think I would, you know, because,
56:58
I mean, it's definitely
57:00
I don't wanna say I'm thankful because that
57:02
seems so, like,
57:04
wrong and stupid to say, but I would
57:07
say in some ways
57:08
I'm thankful
57:10
for the process and for the hardships
57:12
because it's made me grow stronger maybe.
57:15
Yeah.
57:17
I don't know that I agree with you.
57:18
I don't I don't. I so For sure.
57:20
Last summer when we were separated, I thought
57:23
I'm grateful that I have my 3 kids.
57:26
Mhmm. But I wish I would have found
57:27
out that I was married and he wasn't
57:30
an alcoholic.
57:31
He it ramped up. But
57:33
once he became an alcoholic, I wish I
57:35
would have known because
57:36
I was a lot younger. And
57:39
and at the same time, I've heard people
57:40
who are in
57:42
the hell of it now with young kids
57:43
and then they have to, like, split time.
57:45
And so maybe I wanna change my answer
57:47
as I'm saying it because I don't I
57:49
would not have given up a second with
57:51
my kids.
57:52
So I guess
57:53
I got to raise them basically by myself.
57:56
He was there but he was never
57:58
a 100% there.
58:00
So I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking that
58:02
through because I wouldn't have wanted to for
58:04
them to go away, you know, for 2
58:06
weeks in the summer or every other weekend
58:07
or any of that stuff.
58:09
It's tough. Yeah. Choose your heart. Right? I
58:12
guess so. Melanie, you were shaking your head.
58:15
Yeah. Well,
58:16
I don't
58:18
I don't wish this on anybody, and I
58:20
don't like that I went through it. I
58:22
wouldn't wanna I wouldn't if I I would've
58:24
changed it if I could. Definitely. Can we
58:26
think of the easy pass? Right. Yeah. Yeah.
58:29
So I guess I don't know. I mean,
58:30
I can understand what you're saying too
58:33
because I yeah. And you're well, you know,
58:34
I have my kids, and then I I
58:36
wouldn't change that for the world
58:39
or some of my early life experiences. But,
58:41
yeah, if I could've, like, you know, change
58:44
take a different fork in the road from,
58:45
like, you know, 15 years ago, yeah, I
58:48
would've. I wouldn't have repeated that because it
58:50
sucked.
58:51
Yeah. No. And it's just I'm just still
58:54
angry, you know, that I,
58:56
like, didn't get what I
58:58
thought I married. You know? Like, why? Why?
59:01
Why?
59:02
You know? And all those memories are tarnished
59:03
now. Like, every day Right. From you know?
59:05
It it goes back to the dreams. Like
59:07
Yeah. You know? Oh, I wanted
59:10
it to be different. I guess I also
59:12
I guess I also think, like, well, if
59:14
it hadn't been this, it would have been
59:16
something else.
59:18
Like, there is no easy path.
59:20
You know?
59:21
So I guess maybe that's the truth. I
59:24
mean, I get what you're saying, Evie. I'm
59:25
kinda kinda like there's a reason
59:28
there's for better or for worse in the
59:29
married spouse. Mhmm. A very good reason for
59:32
that. Yeah. But
59:34
at the same time, you can you you
59:36
do get kinda blindsided by it. Yes. And
59:38
no, I wouldn't wish this on anybody but
59:40
I think it was an maybe another,
59:44
Echoes Retreat podcast where somebody said, like, if
59:47
I changed one thing,
59:48
it would have changed everything. Right. Right. And
59:51
the person who said it was specifically
59:53
referring to her children
59:55
or her child. Yeah. I wouldn't change
59:57
anything if it meant I didn't have my
59:58
daughter. Exactly.
1:00:00
Not a not a damn that no matter
1:00:02
how much I've suffered,
1:00:04
or even that she's suffered, if it means
1:00:07
she's here,
1:00:08
I'll deal with it. Yeah. Yeah.
1:00:10
But at the same time, having to go
1:00:15
through this, you know, there's something I started
1:00:17
saying a couple of year about a year
1:00:19
back,
1:00:21
to some family and friends, and it's,
1:00:25
you know, our relationship didn't tank overnight.
1:00:29
Conan didn't dive into alcohol. He didn't wake
1:00:31
up one morning and become an alcoholic.
1:00:34
This all happened over a long period of
1:00:36
time and it's not gonna be fixed like
1:00:38
that.
1:00:39
And I say this to Kevin. You know,
1:00:41
you didn't become an alcoholic overnight.
1:00:43
You're not gonna wake up one morning and
1:00:45
everything is gonna be great. Mhmm. And, no,
1:00:47
we can't go back in time because that
1:00:49
was another thing he said to me,
1:00:51
prior to coming home. I just want us
1:00:54
to go back, and I said, I don't.
1:00:55
Mm-mm.
1:00:56
We are not going back. That was something
1:00:58
my husband would say, like, can you promise
1:01:01
me we're gonna be like we were no.
1:01:02
I can't promise you. No. That's what we're
1:01:03
gonna be like we're working for. I'm not
1:01:05
the same person. You're not the same I
1:01:07
said flat out no. I said, we are
1:01:09
not going back there because that's how we
1:01:12
got here. Right. Yeah. Well, I'm not doing
1:01:13
this again. Right. You know, we've we've got
1:01:16
our Yeah. We may not have to burn
1:01:18
the whole thing down, but we gotta burn
1:01:19
a lot of it down. We gotta burn
1:01:21
the weeds out. If anything, I just wish
1:01:23
I had
1:01:24
the wisdom
1:01:25
back then. Because if I was gonna go
1:01:27
through it, I wish I would have known
1:01:30
Mhmm. Yeah. How to handle it
1:01:32
better. Yeah. Yeah. And I wasn't being tortured
1:01:35
through the process with the
1:01:38
Yeah. And I didn't know what it was.
1:01:39
I didn't know that he was an alcoholic.
1:01:41
So I wish I would have known because
1:01:42
then I could have armed myself
1:01:44
instead of
1:01:46
internalizing,
1:01:47
you know, all the BS that he said.
1:01:51
And to me,
1:01:52
I could have been like, okay. Well, that's
1:01:54
not that's the alcohol talking. Like, that's
1:01:56
but I didn't know. Mhmm. I wish I
1:01:58
would have found echos right after I I
1:02:00
found I used alcohol. Same. Yeah. Same. Same.
1:02:03
Two and a half years later Mhmm. That
1:02:05
I finally
1:02:06
found echoes. Yeah. And I mean, I just
1:02:09
think now, man. Because through all the hell
1:02:11
that I went through, it would have been
1:02:12
so nice to have. I I swept everything.
1:02:14
My parents were the only people I told
1:02:15
and I didn't tell them
1:02:17
half of it. See, I told everybody who
1:02:19
would listen
1:02:20
and that was, like,
1:02:22
not the best choice because you you wanna
1:02:25
talk about, like, your friends liking your husband.
1:02:27
Mhmm. I mean, that kind of shaded their
1:02:30
opinion,
1:02:31
you know. And
1:02:33
I feel like now that I have echoes,
1:02:36
I'm like and my other friends ask me,
1:02:38
like, oh, how's he doing? And I'll be
1:02:40
like,
1:02:41
I'll be like, yeah. He's doing really good
1:02:42
because he is doing pretty good. You know?
1:02:45
And And nothing else. But but, yeah, but
1:02:47
I don't wanna, like, talk about it. You
1:02:49
know? Yeah.
1:02:50
Yeah.
1:02:51
Yeah. That's dangerous dangerous because your friends have
1:02:53
only your best interest in mind. Right. And
1:02:56
so they're gonna
1:02:58
I think this is just a knee jerk
1:02:59
reaction. Well, why don't you leave them? Because
1:03:02
they want you to be okay, and they
1:03:03
don't want you to have to go through
1:03:05
the hard. Whereas when you meet people who've
1:03:07
been through it, then
1:03:08
they've got, they understand that both both ways
1:03:11
are hard Right. For sure.
1:03:14
I wish I'd even known what I was
1:03:16
known what I was doing. Not not only
1:03:18
known that,
1:03:21
you know, my coming from my grandfather who
1:03:23
had been an alcoholic, so I knew some
1:03:24
of the signs, but I didn't even know
1:03:26
he was drinking. You know, it's only in
1:03:29
10 years hindsight I can look back at
1:03:31
some of the crazy fights we had and
1:03:33
be like Yes. Oh, he must have had
1:03:35
a 5th of vodka. Right. Yeah. You know?
1:03:37
When that happened because it was so nonsensical.
1:03:40
But at the time, I was blaming myself
1:03:42
and thinking something was wrong with me. Yeah.
1:03:44
Exactly. Because we drank together, like, openly, he
1:03:46
would have, like he would leave half he
1:03:48
would leave a beer can in the fridge
1:03:50
almost every night. He would he started buying
1:03:51
those cans of beer, which I mean, in
1:03:53
hindsight, I know why he bought the screw
1:03:55
top cans
1:03:56
and because he probably wasn't drinking beer out
1:03:58
of it. But I would always see it
1:03:59
in the fridge and like, oh, he's not
1:04:01
even drinking a full beer, you know? And
1:04:03
thinking, wow, that's that's not bad. So why
1:04:04
the hell is he, you know, passed out
1:04:06
on the couch and like he must be
1:04:07
really tired. I mean, god, I was so
1:04:09
sympathetic.
1:04:11
And it's like
1:04:12
one of the reasons I really wish I
1:04:14
had
1:04:16
as soon as I had read the first
1:04:17
blog post, I had, you know, contacted you
1:04:19
guys and joined Echos
1:04:21
because I
1:04:23
went through about a year or 2 of
1:04:24
people just telling me I was enabling him.
1:04:27
And I was like, it wasn't enabling him.
1:04:29
I didn't know what was going on. There
1:04:31
were a couple of years that I thought
1:04:32
a lot of his behavior was because he
1:04:34
was having a bad reaction to anxiety medication.
1:04:37
Mhmm.
1:04:39
Because I had no idea that that the
1:04:40
vodka was hidden down in the garage. Right?
1:04:42
Yep.
1:04:44
Yeah. Identifying what you're dealing with is Yeah.
1:04:47
A huge part of it.
1:04:49
You just mentioned, Nicole, that you guys drink
1:04:52
together.
1:04:54
One of the things that we hear a
1:04:56
lot, one of the things that I certainly
1:04:57
felt and I expressed to Sherry
1:05:00
was when we talk about needs changing,
1:05:03
I said, I'm not the one that changed.
1:05:05
We were drinking together when we met.
1:05:07
You're the one that's changed. What's wrong with
1:05:09
you?
1:05:10
Have
1:05:11
you all experienced that? And did that give
1:05:14
you pause? Or were you, like, hell yeah.
1:05:17
I've changed because it's called maturity, and it's,
1:05:19
like, something you're supposed to do. How did
1:05:21
you handle that? Did you
1:05:22
did you get that? You're the one that
1:05:24
changed. You're the one that changed. I'm not
1:05:25
the problem. I didn't get that. But we
1:05:27
I mean, we met when we were, you
1:05:29
know, not even able to drink yet, and
1:05:31
so,
1:05:32
or legally.
1:05:33
But,
1:05:34
you know, we did a little bit of
1:05:36
partying in college, but never
1:05:39
excessive. Mhmm.
1:05:40
And
1:05:41
then
1:05:42
started a family and it was like
1:05:44
a couple of drinks or maybe a drink
1:05:46
a night, but it was not drinking to
1:05:48
excess with the exception of, like,
1:05:51
the occasional
1:05:53
wedding or something like that.
1:05:55
I never would because I was always pregnant
1:05:56
or had a baby or taking care of
1:05:58
somebody, but
1:05:59
the
1:06:01
his really gradually
1:06:03
increased. You know, it was definitely the frog
1:06:05
in boiling water situation. Okay.
1:06:08
But no. He never accused me of changing
1:06:10
because
1:06:11
we never, like, you and Sherry have talked
1:06:13
about, you guys both used to drink a
1:06:14
lot together and we we never did a
1:06:16
lot together.
1:06:18
It was just kind of like
1:06:20
a glass of wine with dinner.
1:06:23
Mhmm. My husband always noticed
1:06:25
when I started to decline and he would
1:06:27
always encourage me,
1:06:29
but it would make me tired. And I'm
1:06:30
like, I don't wanna go to bed.
1:06:33
But what he did accuse me of changes
1:06:36
when he started to notice that I
1:06:39
was still acting myself around my friends and
1:06:42
my family, but I wasn't acting myself around
1:06:44
him. And he would always tell me, why
1:06:47
can't I get the fun Nikki? And I'm
1:06:47
like, because you destroyed that girl, you know,
1:06:50
but, like, they didn't and so they
1:06:51
can still get her and he could not
1:06:53
for the life of him understand how I
1:06:54
could be that way. He could not for
1:06:57
the life of him understand
1:06:59
how I could be that way with them
1:07:01
but not him. This was after
1:07:04
he was sober? Or why are you still
1:07:05
drinking or both? I mean, it was probably
1:07:08
both because I had started the process of,
1:07:11
like,
1:07:11
already being
1:07:13
disgusted with behavior,
1:07:16
before even in the I didn't know he
1:07:17
was drinking. So I didn't know what was
1:07:19
happening. I just know I didn't like it.
1:07:21
Yeah. And so I was already
1:07:24
very well detached from that and just like
1:07:27
because I don't want anything to do with
1:07:28
it. I don't like you right now. How
1:07:30
can I act myself around you when I
1:07:31
don't like you right
1:07:33
now? But he had he struggled big time
1:07:35
with that and he would get super jealous
1:07:37
anytime I'd go out with people,
1:07:39
and it was a big thing.
1:07:41
And my husband knew what he would say,
1:07:43
we'd be all laughing, doing something with the
1:07:45
kids or whatever, and he'd come in the
1:07:46
room and we'd go, kinda just stop. Yeah.
1:07:48
It was because Yes. Because we didn't know
1:07:50
what was gonna what we what was gonna
1:07:51
happen. What was Ruthie walking in the room?
1:07:53
Was he gonna scream at us for be
1:07:55
no. Whatever. You should be out mowing the
1:07:57
lawn. You should be whatever or you know?
1:08:00
So what was gonna happen? So, yeah, of
1:08:01
course, we, like, just all kinda clammed up
1:08:03
and just to
1:08:04
take the temperature before we could do it.
1:08:06
But, yeah, he always would complain about kinda
1:08:08
that too. Like, why can't
1:08:10
you have fun around me? Well, because you're
1:08:12
not very much fun anymore. So That's really
1:08:14
hard to come back from too. Yeah. Still
1:08:16
not, like,
1:08:17
as relaxed
1:08:19
with him as I am with my kids.
1:08:20
Like, I could dance and sing and whatever
1:08:22
for my kids, but if he's there, I
1:08:24
can. Yeah. Still can.
1:08:26
Yeah. He used to tell me I would
1:08:27
sing all the time, and I can't even
1:08:29
do that in the car anymore. Mhmm. Like
1:08:32
Yeah. Isn't that funny? Like, the stupidest thing?
1:08:35
Yeah. Like Yeah. That's a kind of But
1:08:37
you both say and it's like, it's a
1:08:39
safety piece. Mhmm. Mhmm.
1:08:42
Mine was more I got yelled at just
1:08:44
because I would
1:08:45
he would get angry with me because I
1:08:46
wouldn't let him help me.
1:08:50
Then Yeah. I get a little little bit
1:08:51
of that with cooking because, you know That
1:08:52
help was but the help was always, like,
1:08:53
offered
1:08:54
after I was already 3 quarters of the
1:08:54
way do done doing it. Right.
1:08:59
Will you let me help you with something?
1:09:01
You know, it wasn't actually until years into
1:09:04
this that I was like, Yeah, you know,
1:09:07
I would explain to it even then, like,
1:09:09
I'm just kinda used to doing everything for
1:09:11
myself Sure. At the at the beginning of
1:09:13
our relationship, and then, you know, towards the
1:09:15
end, it was kinda like, well,
1:09:17
I'm always doing it, you know, myself.
1:09:22
And isn't it funny then how they even
1:09:25
question
1:09:27
why
1:09:28
we say we don't need them anymore because
1:09:31
we proved to ourselves that we can do
1:09:33
it all on our own. Mhmm.
1:09:37
Right. Kristen, you talked earlier about an event
1:09:40
that you and your partner went to and
1:09:43
you were able to relax. You were able
1:09:45
to have fun,
1:09:46
but it wasn't necessarily
1:09:48
because
1:09:49
he was there and you felt connected to
1:09:51
him.
1:09:52
It was because he wasn't
1:09:54
making you,
1:09:56
you know, walk on eggshells. And Yeah. So
1:09:59
it was it was less about his companionship
1:10:02
and more
1:10:03
about him not getting in the way of
1:10:05
your peace and contentment. Did I Yeah. Did
1:10:07
I hear that right? Exactly.
1:10:09
Yeah.
1:10:11
So let me ask the whole group kind
1:10:13
of kind of with that thought in mind.
1:10:17
When we get into these romantic partnerships, one
1:10:19
of the reasons is for lifelong potentially
1:10:22
lifelong companionship.
1:10:24
When
1:10:25
there are, you know,
1:10:27
traumatic experiences
1:10:29
and,
1:10:30
it all spins out of control and doesn't
1:10:32
go the way you want it to,
1:10:34
we still we're still humans, and we still
1:10:36
have needs for companionship. Do you found that
1:10:38
you have found all of you found other
1:10:41
outlets
1:10:42
for your need for companionship
1:10:44
and that you don't necessarily rely on your
1:10:46
partner as much for that as you maybe
1:10:49
previously did or or hope that you'd be
1:10:51
able to.
1:10:53
Mhmm. That's a slippery slope. Mhmm. Yeah. Oh,
1:10:56
I was gonna say Melanie said she was
1:10:58
collecting doll dogs
1:11:00
and I they are
1:11:02
yeah. I mean,
1:11:03
I don't have kids and
1:11:05
they're
1:11:06
I I made a joke to my husband
1:11:08
the other day. Like, we're so obsessed with
1:11:10
our dogs. If we ever had a kid,
1:11:13
I would I can't imagine how much more
1:11:16
obsessed we would be with our kid.
1:11:18
Like, it's
1:11:20
like a kinda weird. I mean, we know
1:11:22
they're dogs but, you know, it's I'm a
1:11:24
prime example of that.
1:11:27
Right. I mean
1:11:28
so,
1:11:29
I mean, yeah, dogs
1:11:31
are great companions, and and I also
1:11:35
girlfriends. Right.
1:11:36
And I and I also feel like I
1:11:38
have
1:11:39
I love my husband, and I'm
1:11:42
glad he's we're together and
1:11:44
whatever, but I also feel like I have
1:11:46
less of a need for companionship
1:11:49
at this point, you know, because like what
1:11:51
you guys said,
1:11:52
I realized I can do things myself, and
1:11:55
I can,
1:11:56
you know, be I can be happy alone.
1:11:58
I can
1:12:00
Yeah.
1:12:01
Yeah.
1:12:02
I have a friend I go to lunch
1:12:04
with every now and then,
1:12:05
that I never did before, not necessarily for
1:12:08
any reason. I don't know. I just didn't.
1:12:10
But also 2 of my kids are
1:12:13
adults now,
1:12:14
in their twenties. And and lots of times
1:12:16
I will talk to them not about, you
1:12:18
know, things that I shouldn't be sharing but
1:12:20
like adult conversations
1:12:22
about work or about life or whatever that
1:12:25
I just naturally share with them. And I'm
1:12:28
not trying to withhold it from my husband,
1:12:29
but I don't have a need because he
1:12:31
used to not listen to me, you know?
1:12:33
There were so many years. Not remember. He
1:12:35
wouldn't remember. Like, he couldn't remember who I
1:12:37
worked with. I'm surprised he remembered where I
1:12:39
worked. He trained you to He trained me
1:12:40
not to talk to him about it. So
1:12:42
now when he asked.
1:12:43
Guy was bad. Very much so. Sometimes I'll
1:12:45
answer and then I'll be like, oh, crap.
1:12:47
I just gave all this detail and why
1:12:48
did I waste all this crap? Yeah. You
1:12:49
know? Yeah. Will.
1:12:51
Well, I just wrote about that though about
1:12:53
my effort and, like, the relationships that feel
1:12:56
effortless to me
1:12:58
because I've created this, like,
1:13:01
friends and family, like, type group that
1:13:04
it feels effortless to me to have that.
1:13:08
And it feels like I have to put
1:13:09
a lot of effort into my
1:13:12
relationship with him.
1:13:14
And it's a choice that I have to
1:13:16
make, and it's really hard. And shouldn't that
1:13:19
tiring? Shouldn't that be more effortless? Sure. Especially
1:13:22
at this point in your marriage. Yeah. Yeah.
1:13:24
Absolutely.
1:13:24
Exactly.
1:13:26
Well, it it strikes me that when I
1:13:29
watch you guys communicate with each other,
1:13:31
the stakes aren't as high because
1:13:35
you don't feel like there's a risk to
1:13:37
that. That. You guys have all pushed across
1:13:40
the boundary of vulnerability
1:13:42
and found a way to be honest with
1:13:44
each other. And so
1:13:45
you have companions in your life where you
1:13:48
can be honest and vulnerable
1:13:50
and you never get stung, like, ever.
1:13:53
And so,
1:13:55
the the stakes aren't as high because,
1:13:58
they're, you know, the the just the risk
1:14:00
isn't there. The fear isn't there. Is that
1:14:02
when you talk about effortless, that's what comes
1:14:04
to mind for me. They get it. Yeah.
1:14:05
They get it. It's not
1:14:08
I mean, it's not something that
1:14:11
I have to think about.
1:14:13
I feel like I have to think about
1:14:15
our conversations.
1:14:17
It's not just
1:14:19
flow.
1:14:19
Like, I feel like I
1:14:21
still tiptoe on some things, and
1:14:24
I don't have to do that with anybody
1:14:26
else.
1:14:27
And that was because of things that would
1:14:29
get hold held against me or things that
1:14:31
would get twisted,
1:14:33
or circular arguments,
1:14:37
all of that.
1:14:38
It it was exhausting and traumatizing,
1:14:41
and
1:14:42
I don't have that with anyone else. And
1:14:45
so now it's the fight of
1:14:48
we both need to have the energy level
1:14:50
to put into. I mean,
1:14:52
we're coming up on 5 years sober, and
1:14:55
it's finding the time and the effort to
1:14:58
really push into the relationship that is the
1:15:00
one that's the most important.
1:15:02
Like, this is my future. This is my
1:15:05
family.
1:15:06
Like,
1:15:07
it's a big deal and we both have
1:15:09
to find some type of middle ground to
1:15:12
figure out how to do it all.
1:15:14
Well, I'm just gonna jump in and say,
1:15:17
I think for me, I had to kind
1:15:19
of because I withheld a lot from
1:15:22
a lot of people and kinda withdrew when
1:15:23
Matt was really drinking, especially after, like, I
1:15:26
got, like, answers like, just divorce him or
1:15:28
it's not my problem. Yeah. You know?
1:15:31
So I kind of, you know,
1:15:34
went into myself, but then,
1:15:36
Matt, you were always, like, a person that
1:15:38
felt like you didn't need help from anybody.
1:15:40
It was supposed to be you and I
1:15:41
conquering the world. We're doing it together. Blah
1:15:43
blah. And I felt like just for me,
1:15:45
I had
1:15:46
the desire that I needed to have connection
1:15:48
outside of this. I looked at it like
1:15:50
this is a relationship I'm choosing to have,
1:15:51
and I want us to be partners, and
1:15:53
I want us to be teammates, but you
1:15:54
can't be my everything. But you only wanted
1:15:57
me to be your everything.
1:15:59
And so that's why I think now I
1:16:01
look at it like it's a much healthier
1:16:03
relationship because I don't have to come with
1:16:05
you to come to you unless I want
1:16:08
to with every single need, but you're not
1:16:09
gonna be able to fill all those. And
1:16:11
I feel confident that you can receive that
1:16:13
information
1:16:15
and and know now
1:16:17
that you're not gonna fill all of my
1:16:19
needs. I'm gonna need to have my girlfriends.
1:16:21
I'm gonna need to have my kitten time.
1:16:23
I'm gonna need my alone time. I'm gonna
1:16:24
need my snuggle my kitty cat time and
1:16:27
you're gonna be okay with it because you
1:16:28
are not,
1:16:30
you know, being
1:16:32
filled with depression and anxiety
1:16:34
and the addiction anymore,
1:16:36
but I think that's a a confidence piece
1:16:38
that had to come that I had
1:16:41
really, like,
1:16:42
been looking for.
1:16:44
And, you know, was like, you don't need
1:16:47
everything from me, and I don't need everything
1:16:48
from you.
1:16:50
And so we have
1:16:51
a much stronger bond because of our self
1:16:54
esteem.
1:16:55
And you recognizing that that it's okay for
1:16:57
me to go and get some things outside
1:16:59
of
1:17:01
the the relationship,
1:17:02
you know, for
1:17:04
support, camaraderie,
1:17:05
connection.
1:17:07
Well, I think
1:17:09
one of the things that has happened for
1:17:10
me not only as you and I, Sherry,
1:17:12
have worked on our relationship recovery,
1:17:14
but probably
1:17:16
even more so
1:17:17
as I've met all these other wonderful people
1:17:20
who are
1:17:21
have their own struggles and are coming back
1:17:23
from their own traumatic experiences,
1:17:26
and I've seen the consistency. I mean, consistency
1:17:29
was one of the needs that you all
1:17:31
shared.
1:17:32
Also
1:17:33
one of the attributes that you all share.
1:17:36
The stories are so consistent. Maybe the rock
1:17:38
bottom moment is different. Maybe the age is
1:17:40
different. Maybe how long the progression took is
1:17:43
different.
1:17:44
But there's so much consistency
1:17:46
to how it impacted you as individuals
1:17:49
that it's super telling and it helps it
1:17:52
helps me honestly.
1:17:54
I think one of the biggest blessings of
1:17:56
my life through knowing all of you
1:17:59
is that I understand how precariously
1:18:02
perched my relationship is. I understand how 10
1:18:05
you know, how close I am every moment
1:18:08
of the day to losing my family.
1:18:10
And that's actually super helpful. And that's one
1:18:13
of the messages that I was hoping with
1:18:14
this with this topic about
1:18:17
needs and changing needs that we could deliver
1:18:20
to to our listeners who maybe are on
1:18:21
my side of the fence, the alcoholics,
1:18:23
and the ones that are in recovery, the
1:18:25
ones that have been years in recovery, and
1:18:26
are like, hey, I haven't drank forever. Like,
1:18:28
look at me. I'm good now.
1:18:31
I think it's important for us to understand
1:18:34
that
1:18:35
we don't
1:18:37
fill the need in our partners that maybe
1:18:39
we did at the beginning. Maybe we have
1:18:41
the potential potential to for our whole relationship
1:18:44
had things stayed smooth.
1:18:46
The fairy tale. Right? I mean, the
1:18:48
the prince charming bullshit, all of that. Like,
1:18:51
if you've been through what you all have
1:18:53
been through, you don't need a prince charming
1:18:56
anymore.
1:18:57
And it's really helpful to me to
1:18:59
know that I'm behind the cats on your
1:19:02
list of people you love, Sherry. I'm way
1:19:05
behind the kids.
1:19:06
Like, the kids are in a different, like,
1:19:08
stratosphere for me. Kids are probably above the
1:19:10
Cavs. Yeah.
1:19:14
Likeability wise, it's a day to day situation.
1:19:18
Love is always.
1:19:20
But when I'm when I'm making an action
1:19:22
plan and I'm just trying to proceed through
1:19:24
the day, it's really helpful for me to
1:19:26
know,
1:19:27
that the things that I maybe thought were
1:19:29
a given are not. And just because I
1:19:31
was sober for a little while doesn't change
1:19:34
that. Like, it's kind of permanent now.
1:19:36
She's figured out how to live without me
1:19:38
if she has to, and so I gotta
1:19:40
keep showing up if I wanna be a
1:19:42
part of this. I think that's really important.
1:19:44
Well, I think that's where the also that,
1:19:46
like, healing in the self,
1:19:49
like, the self discovery and the recovery piece
1:19:52
needs because I can't understand all of your
1:19:57
situations and feelings and things you went through
1:19:59
with the addiction. And so that's why you
1:20:02
need to find community
1:20:03
that can help you decipher some of that.
1:20:06
So then it's just not laying at my
1:20:08
feet and I'm supposed
1:20:09
to fix you and
1:20:11
lift you up, and we know that we
1:20:12
can't be
1:20:14
everything to each other
1:20:16
and and that it does take more than
1:20:18
just the 2 of us. So I think
1:20:21
oh, go ahead. Oh, I think that's part
1:20:23
of when I said, like, thankful
1:20:25
earlier. That's kind of part of what I
1:20:27
meant.
1:20:28
Like, I don't know that I would have
1:20:30
realized
1:20:31
what I was capable of
1:20:33
doing on my own if I hadn't gone
1:20:36
through this experience. Like I don't know if
1:20:38
I would have
1:20:40
matured in the same way
1:20:42
and become as competent
1:20:44
if I hadn't gone through this experience.
1:20:46
Would I like to go through it again?
1:20:48
No. I would not.
1:20:50
But,
1:20:51
you know
1:20:51
Yeah. And you did some hard stuff Yes.
1:20:54
While you were
1:20:55
fighting through this addiction and Right. Living separate
1:20:58
and Right.
1:21:01
Really
1:21:02
astounded yourself with what you Yes. I did.
1:21:05
And I don't know if that would have
1:21:06
happened if
1:21:08
the addiction hadn't been there. I just I
1:21:10
don't know if I would have found it
1:21:12
within myself. You know? Mhmm. I don't know.
1:21:15
Well, I like I like what Matt just
1:21:17
said it out.
1:21:18
Like, his role
1:21:20
the the role that he plays in Sherry's
1:21:23
in the relationship with Sherry has changed Mhmm.
1:21:25
You know, as a result of the addiction,
1:21:27
and it's not the same role that it
1:21:28
was before. Mhmm.
1:21:30
And that's
1:21:31
well, that just made a big light bulb
1:21:33
off with me.
1:21:36
My role is not the same as it
1:21:39
was
1:21:40
before, and I'm not even sure what it
1:21:42
is.
1:21:43
So that's gonna be, you know, a discussion
1:21:46
I can have when I get home,
1:21:49
but also, you know, one of the I
1:21:51
could I can definitely name one of the
1:21:53
roles that my husband has always seen himself
1:21:55
in which was
1:21:56
protector.
1:21:57
Mhmm. You know, he's a serviceman. He's a
1:21:59
protector,
1:22:00
but
1:22:01
after all of this, he comes roaring in
1:22:03
and wants to protect me. I'm like, I
1:22:05
need you to protect me. Exactly. I needed
1:22:07
protection from you. That's huge.
1:22:10
Yeah. For many years, it's protection. So it's
1:22:12
it
1:22:13
it it I get that it's important for
1:22:15
you to see yourself as the protector of
1:22:17
the family, but that is not at all
1:22:19
how I see you,
1:22:20
you
1:22:22
know.
1:22:24
You have different roles now. Yeah,
1:22:27
and
1:22:28
just being aware of that. And that's so
1:22:29
that's why I hope that people on on
1:22:32
my side of the alcoholic relationship who who
1:22:34
might be listening to this episode
1:22:36
don't, you know, can can kind of release
1:22:39
the instinct to say,
1:22:41
when is my wife ever gonna be over
1:22:43
this? When is she gonna when is she
1:22:45
gonna let me back in? Like, well, the
1:22:47
answer is never. Like, it's this is just
1:22:50
the we've all changed. Mhmm. And it it
1:22:53
doesn't have to be a bad thing. It
1:22:55
can be a road forward
1:22:57
if you're willing to take it. And I
1:22:59
really love, Nicole, what you said much earlier
1:23:01
when you talked about how
1:23:03
romantic partnerships, marriages, they're not they're not unconditional.
1:23:07
I think that's I think there's a lot
1:23:09
of people
1:23:10
and and people can disagree with me certainly,
1:23:12
but there's a lot of people who just
1:23:13
think that because of those wedding vows we
1:23:16
talked about. It's just that chemistry that makes
1:23:18
you a little crazy in the beginning. Right.
1:23:21
But it wears off. Yeah. And then you're
1:23:23
left with what I believe is the most
1:23:25
conditional love and the most conditional relationship there
1:23:28
is. It's this partnership that depends
1:23:31
on 2 people to be,
1:23:32
pulling their way and one one of them
1:23:34
stops pulling their way. Trustworthy and faithful and
1:23:36
consistent and secure and and when that goes
1:23:40
away Yeah.
1:23:42
And the ability to dream.
1:23:44
I did not see that coming, Ellie. I
1:23:46
love that. I love that you added that.
1:23:48
Thank you very
1:23:50
much. This has been a great conversation.
1:23:52
I think what we should do now is
1:23:54
pull that microphone out of y'all's faces
1:24:04
Intoxicated podcast, and thank you for being here
1:24:05
in rest of it. Thanks for being on
1:24:06
the intoxicated podcast, and thank you for being
1:24:08
here in the mountains with us for this
1:24:10
weekend. Thanks. Love you all. Thank you. Thank
1:24:13
you. Ice cream. Right? Thank you. You have
1:24:15
ice
1:24:17
cream.
1:24:19
Before you go, we hope you'll consider these
1:24:22
three resources.
1:24:23
If you love or loved an alcoholic, we
1:24:25
offer support and connection in our Echoes of
1:24:27
Recovery group. Check us out at echoes of
1:24:30
recovery.org.
1:24:32
If you are a high functioning alcoholic seeking
1:24:34
methods and connection in early sobriety,
1:24:37
we're ready for you at shoutsobriety.org. No matter
1:24:37
who you are, there's something for you in
1:24:38
our
1:24:39
sobriety.org.
1:24:40
No matter who you are, there's something for
1:24:42
you in our book. Sober Evolution, evolve into
1:24:45
sobriety and recover your alcoholic marriage. Go to
1:24:48
sober revolution.org.
1:24:50
For my wife, Sherry Salas, I'm Matt Salas.
1:24:53
Thanks for listening to the Untoxicated
1:24:55
podcast.