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When Family Loyalty Becomes A Weapon · Head Shrink Inc.

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: You are drinking your ancestors to life, relationships, and daily living.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_04: All right, welcome to the show.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_04: I want to thank John and Ashley for being here.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_04: So a little backstory.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know, John, maybe it was a year ago.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just it's easy just to say a year ago.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_04: I saw John make a video about estrangement, and I thought, ah, this is interesting.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: And so I messaged him and I said, Can I use this content?
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I think I probably asked you again.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: I saw another video.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_04: And so since I started up this podcast, I wanted to bring on people that I just am interested in their stories.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_04: And so, John Ashley, thank you for being here.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, thanks for having us.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so you guys are married, four kids.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_04: How long have you guys been married?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: 20 years in October.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_04: Oh nice, nice one.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Good year.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: So tell me, so tell me how this estrangement happened, or kind of start with before estrangement, and then what kind of led up to it, and then your experience in it.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna let you guys kind of take the floor and and tell your story.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna let John go just because the estrangement is with my family, and so it's hard for me to weed out like where to start.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, do you want me to start at birth?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Just kidding.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I I'll let him tell it, and then I will interject where I want to add detail.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, John, let me let me kind of see if I can direct it.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_04: So you marry this nice lady over here, and then you're in the family doing family stuff.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_04: Was there ever were there ever like hints of uh like yellow flaggy stuff?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but it's interesting.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm the I'm the oldest of seven kids, Ashley's the youngest of seven kids, and kind of even my extended family system, she was best friends with my cousin.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we met at my cousin's wedding.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and interestingly enough, we had some similar family dynamics that now we look back in hindsight, knowing what we know, and we're like, there were some unhealthy things on both sides, but they seemed normal to us because that was what we laugh about.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: We were attracted to each other because we both came from narcissistic families, yeah, or that had a lot of it within the family culture.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_04: So so that that reminds me of what I we had said before I recorded this.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_04: Do so I know that you both are in the LDS faith.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_04: So do you do you think that's something that is religion-based, like world just religion-based or LDS specific?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: I so interestingly enough, as we've kind of like started telling our story and then turning the story into even just education, we're in a very interesting little niche in this estrangement space because of the Christianity lens.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it is LDS, but what has surprised us is just how broad it is in other religious denominations.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that in any religion, if a family is very devout in that faith, but if the family is unhealthy, they may use that religion, whatever it is, as a tool or weapon to control and to manipulate andor you know, spiritually abuse, emotionally abuse, et cetera.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so, does it exist in the LBS culture?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: You betcha.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely it does.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it also definitely exists in a lot of religious denominations.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a little bit of a surprise to us just because we only knew what we knew through our lens.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: But does it exist in all?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, we're still very devout in our faith, and we're able to see clearly the people that have used the church and its doctrine as a tool for harm, you know, and I don't think that that is actually the reality of what the doctrine is, if that makes sense.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I just like even, I mean, if you read the Bible, Jesus is constantly calling out the Pharisees and the Sadducees, who are, in society's terms, quote unquote, the most religious, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're the most spiritual, they do everything right because they're all about following the rules.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then Jesus comes and he's like disrupting everything, and they're like, What?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it comes down to like religion provides us like an outline of commandments and and rules, if you will.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: But in order to really apply that in ways that both build you and help build others, you have to have the gifts of discernment and wisdom.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, they're just those religious rules are just a curtain that people who want to hide, they hide behind those, you know, and that exists in every single religion.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: You will have your honest seekers, and then you will have those who use it to posture themselves up to gain control, but they're usually hiding something as well.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: But they just don't have authentic relationships with God.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if you you if you actually read the scriptures, they're constantly teaching and warning about becoming that type of person.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, they are.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: I I agree.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um so then are you saying, in a way, then your families had that same dynamic that you just described?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, totally.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it was more my extended family than my immediate family.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was more my mom's side where that was manifest itself.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that was where a cousin connection kind of came with Ashley, where they were best friends.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there was a point years and years ago before I even saw how big the problems in my own family were.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: But John's mom was still her brother had a lot of control over.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I just finally said to her, Why in the world are you so beholden to him and his opinion of you?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, look at what he's done to you.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to work this out.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that was kind of when the light bulb went on for her, and she started to get help and therapy and create boundaries from him because he was just he was willing to take anything from her at any cost, you know.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, but she really hadn't seen it until that point.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, she's John's mom has been willing to do a lot of work herself and kind of work out some of those.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: When you grow up in a narcissistic family, too, you tend to take on those characteristics just because it's all you've ever known.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: You don't really even see that there's anything wrong with them.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of have to learn that there's something wrong with them.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of the difference in our family.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like his mom was kind of willing to see it and do some work, and my family's just gone full defense mode.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_04: So, John, who sorry, I got us off track, but it's all right.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what I mean, were there any kind of yellow flags?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like, because you're new, you're newly married, and so you start seeing some things, but you're new to the family, so it's just like, oh, maybe this is normal.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I kind of chalked it up at the beginning.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, there's the the kind of like adjustment to a new family environment, and it's a very enmeshed family, and I thought that I wanted that for sure.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I I like the concept of close family bonds, like that's not inherently wrong.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I was all in on the family culture, and the discomfort I think I felt was I was viewing it as that she's the youngest of seven, I'm the oldest of seven, and so I'm having to take on the role of now being the youngest in a family, you know.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So when I would see the red flags, I would go, oh, this is just maybe me struggling with now having to have a different role in the family, being at the bottom of the totem pole instead of the top, right?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I would kind of just chalk it up as that of this must be what it's like to have older brothers and sisters.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what I mean?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just didn't really it got worse as time went on, obviously.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: There were more and more things that came to light.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: But at the beginning, I just kind of chalked it up as like interesting family dynamics.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And but one of our earliest experiences, and again, like, do you see it as the red flag that you know what's going to become later?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: But our first in our first year of marriage, you know, John was still in school, he was working full-time, he had a super busy schedule.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: My family was having Sunday dinner.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: We lived pretty close.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: In my family, you go to Sunday dinner.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't go to Sunday dinner, it is going to be talked about in a very negative way of like why, you know, and I knew because I have older siblings if I didn't go, because Ashley would never make that decision.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like John's controlling her to not go, you know, like yes, yes.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: So what there was one Sunday, and John just said, Hey, can we just stay home?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I am so tired.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just I need like a rest and reprieve.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I will never forget when he when he said that, I literally felt panic because I was just like, Well, can't you just like take some ibuprofen and an app real fast and then we'll go?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, No, like I'm just telling you, I'm tired.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: I want to stay home just for today, you know, like I just need today.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I I didn't know how to sit with that.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And he he eventually looked at me and he's like, Why is it such a big deal to just not go to Sunday dinner today?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Well, I just, well, I just they're they really want us.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he finally said to me, actually, I don't understand why when it comes between doing what's best for me and when it comes, you know, and doing what's best for your mom, you choose your mom every time.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, Look, I love your parents and I I want to accommodate them.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not asking us to not have a relationship, but but he's like, when we married each other, we made a covenant to put each other first, and you still choose your mom every time.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, you know, when somebody says something that's true, but you've never thought about it, but you know that it's true, and I was just like, felt that spirit of truth, like that is true, and yet I've never thought to think of it that way.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, truly, I've been so conditioned to honor my parents and do what they want and be obedient.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: I always laugh and say, I didn't actually know that I was covenanting to put John first.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that I was a very obedient child and we would marry, and then together we would be obedient children to them.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like well, I mean, I didn't obviously consciously think that, but yeah, yeah, I had that expectation of well, and but Mary, we will be the perfect children still for my parents and and please them.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And her siblings are still they still function that way.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And her she has siblings that are 60, you know, and they're still in this be obedient and compliant to whatever mom and dad.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you either have to break out of it or you have to become it, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so my most of my siblings have become become it.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: But when he said that to me, I just it was this aha of like, you're right.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I did make a promise to put you first, and I can see that that is unfair of you to not put your needs first when they're reasonable, right?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's a reasonable request.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_04: I think family loyalty is another thing that some families will use as a weapon or uh a way to manipulate people.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I I mean, I like family, I have a big family.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_04: I but family loyal, I'm not a big family loyalty guy because I think a lot of bad things happen under the name of well, it's your blood, it's your family.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I just think, wait, you want to treat me poorly just because I have the same DNA as you?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that makes no sense to me.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but I think there is a certain age group of people that boomers that often think no family loyalty is is the end all be all of everything.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_04: I give boomers a really bad time, but I know there are good boomers, sure, but it it just seems like a vast majority are very into themselves.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: We have felt the same way.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and again, they were very conditioned to play a role and sure, you know, image-based.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think I had a therapist, not even LDS, explain this to me one time, and I think thought it made a lot of sense.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of tragic, a lot of this pretending thing came from the war where like men would experience major PTSD after they came home, but they didn't have any resources to work through it or handle it so they would turn to alcohol or women.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: But society, if they're you know, if their employer found out, they would be fired and yet they couldn't afford like their children wouldn't eat.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So they became secretive and learned to have a double life and put on this image.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we are still experiencing the effects of that.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it it kind of answered the question to me of like, why so many boomers play this image role over all and like duty and obligation for you, who you need to be over authenticity, because that post-war generation for survival kind of had to pretend that the trauma wasn't there.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I also think that I mean this could be a whole nother podcast, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think the boomers, like the war happened, then the boomers were made, and the boomers got all the stuff because there was an economic boom, everything was great, all the new technologies were coming out, and so like they became, I believe, very self-centered.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, a lot of ego and yes, which is then like I'm a Gen X, so in the 80s, we're Gen X are known for we could just go out and stay out till midnight, and our parents wouldn't care, yeah, which now it's like very opposite.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we're millennials and it's all about authenticity and expression and telling your story, you know what I mean?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like because of the advent of social media and things, which is what brought us here, you know.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_04: So, Ashley, were you so you were the baby?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, do you think that then your opinions about things were discounted because you were the baby?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't even know if they were ever known, honestly.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even share.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, to an extent that I didn't actually even know what my own opinions were about anything.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I really didn't have many.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what people would be like, what do you love to do?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd be like, shop.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, like once we got married, we were poor.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I didn't even have the money to do that.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I didn't know what I enjoyed.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I never felt like I became good at anything.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I never learned to have passions because I never learned that it was okay to be bad at anything.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because I live in a narcissistic house.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my dad went to residency at the Mayo Clinic, and everything was about how brilliant he is and how smart and kind of like you'll never measure up.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: But like there was no like growth mentality.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was like you gotta be amazing.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I just all of us learn to be scared to try anything because then we would be told that we it wasn't good enough.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, I just I didn't know myself and a lot of parts of myself for a really long time.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_04: I would think if that that kind of perspective is like, why would you ever want to be a parent then?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: Because what if I'm gonna fail as a mom?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but then you're probably expected to be a mom, you're expected to have babies.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: And fun enough, that was the one thing I actually felt like I I wanted to do and believed that I could do, but I did spend my entire childhood, like literally, that was my dream.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: That was what got me through childhood, is not necessarily being a mom, which I did always want, but having a husband who loved me.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would fantasize about it all like all the time.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to feel loved and known.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And my older sister, I have four older sisters, but the one right above me, she's everything I wasn't, you know, in high school, and part of this was her ego, but she was just beautiful and a cheerleader and so outgoing, and every guy wanted to date her.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I would think to myself, and she would just she would tell me, like basically, I'm the guy or I'm the girl that everybody wants to date.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like she made sure that I knew that I was not nearly as desirable as she was, and I would just think to myself, you can have she can have every guy in the whole world.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: I just need one who will love me.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, and I know we're not talking about couple dynamics, but that would make a cut interesting couple dynamics when John is mad at you and doesn't want to have a conversation with you about something that potentially seems like it could lead to some attachment, like, oh no, what's happening here?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: But we're not here to talk about that.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_04: We're not here to do couples counseling.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so all right, so so tell me, yeah, kind of lead into the story of what led.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_04: I don't even know the uh uh the conversation that took place or or whatever that led to the strangest.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, in more of kind of the reader's digest version of it, so yeah, time goes on.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: We we continue to see patterns emerge in the family.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Ashley studied marriage, family, and human development at Brigham Young University.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: She always, like she said, she wanted to have a loving relationship in marriage, but she wanted a great family.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason for that was as the youngest, I think she was observing patterns that were occurring.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a really, really strong pattern.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Four of her siblings are now divorced or have been divorced.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of infidelity in the family, and it finally reached kind of the final point where we then looked at each other and were like, This has infected the entire family, but but us, and why why not us?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And when we were watching, how do you stop it from infect infecting the next generation?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: See how hard my mom in particular tried to have it not, and yet those that was like squirt water bottle on a roaring fire, you know, like her efforts to not have the patterns repeat were laughable.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: What it well, I mean, can you point to anything that she did?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like what?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I was gonna say, you know, as John was talking, I was the youngest child, and my mom and I were very close growing up.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was really the only child who would know her emotionally, and she needed that from me because my dad wouldn't know her emotionally, right?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so she did that kind of classic, got her emotional needs met from her children.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, most of her children really struggled with her because my dad was constantly criticizing her.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: She was the butt of all the jokes.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you just have this, my you have this need to please my dad and be cool enough for my dad.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: For whatever reason, I just kind of always knew I was never cool enough.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I I was a mama's girl, but and so my mom and I were so close, my until John and I got married, honestly.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it and John didn't affect that.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think her jealousy affected that, to be honest.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: But going back, she was in my childhood, she was much more honest with me about her own feelings and emotions than she is now.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I would hear through my teenage years, she would literally beg me because she knew my older sisters at this point had already been married, and she could see that those men were their lives would be filled with the same kind of sadness that hers was.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them already had started happening.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: So she would beg me, Ashley, please, you have to promise me, please, please do not marry a man with she would always say a temper, but I always knew that that meant much, much more.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I knew, I knew, I knew that my dad was not faithful to her and that he was mean spirited to her because he just wasn't living honestly.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so that term was loaded, but she would beg me to marry somebody different, and she's she would say, You have to marry somebody who's she would say righteous and who will treat you with love.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: You have please, you have to.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: She would like beg me with the depths of her soul a lot, and you know what's funny, she doesn't remember, she doesn't even remember that anymore.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: But and you'd be like, Mom, chill, okay.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes, totally.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: I would be like, Mom, I will, I will.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I don't want to marry like my sister's husbands, or like I don't want to marry them.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: But funny it I understand why they married because it was hard for me to marry John, because John was not what is considered cool in my family, because being cool means you have to be willing to joke in the way that they joke about sex and money, and you have to be digging at the women and laugh at it.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's how they bond.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And John won't do that, and so he was never cool, right?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: We were already kind of the black sheep couple, anyways.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: For most of that time.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: But as time went on, we just became even more and more of the black sheep where we just didn't fit into the family culture.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And once that kind of happened, it was then like all eyes were on us, and they were constantly looking for a misstep that they could pick us apart for.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we felt that with time of just like, we can't do anything right.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like it is always our fault.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it was a ton of deflection from their very problems, right?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like they were total screw-ups in many ways, but then they were always just focusing on us.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: So once we kind of wanted to start advocating for ourselves and kind of standing up for ourselves and having a voice about it, and then also expressing the concerns that we had, very quickly it became we've got to silence these two as quickly as possible.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so the just so we can get through the estrangement story of how what got us there, the straw that broke the camel's back was they had all gathered together.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: They wrote a seven-page letter, they sent it to us one night.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Every one of the members of the family was copied on it.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: The letter was filled with basically stop talking, stop, you know, addressing these things.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: We were wanting boundaries from one member of the family.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: One member of the family.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: We needed major boundaries from him.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it was around the holidays, and we just were saying, we're going to do Thanksgiving and Christmas on our own, is what we were communicating to Ashley's parents and their siblings.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that was not acceptable to them, right?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, how dare you try to go and do your own family traditions.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we do in this family.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then they, because we had started using the word boundaries, they kind of then were throwing that back in our face of, you know, and mocking us a little bit.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: But the letter was so, you know, you oftentimes boomers and others that are in these estranged situations, they act like it was just one little thing that tipped, you know.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: For us, it was the straw that broke the camel's back, but it was after a long period of a lot of circumstances.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And this was kind of the one where you just went, okay, enough is enough.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the one that put the initial boundary in place.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: The letter was sent from my mother-in-law's email account.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: I had told her basically that we wanted to have a stronger boundary.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I asked her not to call or text me or email me the next morning after I had sent that to her.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: She then put a whole family group text together, and everyone was on it, including us, even though I asked her not to, and sent us a podcast on forgiveness and just like completely disregarded, you know, and that only made me dig in further.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh my gosh, you can't even like respect what I asked you to do last night.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: But even though this boundary was with again one person in that situation, the entire family went radio silent with us.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like the message to my mother-in-law turned into a message that John basically sent to the entire family, which wasn't the case.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it certainly wasn't even Ashley.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't speaking on behalf of the two of us, it was between me and my mother-in-law.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: That was where things just got way worse from there.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we started seeing the way the family then doubled down and circling the wagons.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden, they were doing you know, cousin sleepovers with matching pajamas.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And my father-in-law took everybody to Italy, all expenses paid so that they could have this bonding experience without us.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: And they planned it in record time, like in a matter of months, they were all in Italy.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like they were trying, I think, to send signals of like, you try to remove yourself, we're all gonna double down, you're gonna look like the idiot.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was and it just has gotten worse and worse from there.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: I always say now that I see it all.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: There has never been anybody in my dad's life that he couldn't manipulate through charm, money, status, or legal, or fear.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_04: So well, I I want to go back for a moment because the phrase you use, the straw that broke the camel's back.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I I think I will see a lot of online, a lot of strange parents talking about like, well, nothing really happened, or I don't know what happened, or all that happened was this one thing.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I just want to reiterate what you're saying is that this was not a this thing happened, and then we decided boundaries need to be put into place.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, this was a long time coming, I'm imagining.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So long, so long.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we have put up, we had put up with so much.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: But the the long and short of it was there was so much betrayal in my family, mostly the men betraying the women.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: But then the men would always be protected, it would always be the and the pattern existed from the top down.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone, the betrayer would come remorsefully say, I made a mistake, I shouldn't have.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: But they would have one moment where they would admit it, and then it would be like, I've repented, we're never gonna talk about this again.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm amazing, I'm healed.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And just so you know, men don't cheat when they're loved well enough.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so if your man is cheating on you, that's to the wife.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: No man wants to be married to a nag.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, what is a woman who is this where is this in the Bible?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_04: Isn't it in the Bible?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, my dad will say to you, and I just got a text all about this on Monday.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm about to block him again.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I can't see you anywhere in the Bible where Jesus teaches about boundaries.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Family is everything, there's nothing in the Bible about boundaries.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, I can't, I can't even respond.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, anyway, but it but I'm calling out this pattern.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and for a couple months before this, I started to really confront my dad on his past and what the present looked like.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, dad, if you had overcome these things, you would not so freely be protecting the men who are doing them to your daughters.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you've overcome, overcome them, you would learn to hate the sin, but you still protect it.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't add up to me.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that you've done the work that you need to do.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: You don't still fully know.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: You certainly aren't willing to see the effects of your behaviors on each of us and what it cost and who your daughters married.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, at one point he said to me, because I was a little bit more bold than I'm telling you in this moment, but he he said to me, Are you you think that your sisters have married men who cheated on them because I cheated on your mom?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah, I am.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what I'm saying.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's a pattern.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he just like my dad is very book smart, a very good surgeon, but zero, zero emotional intelligence.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I get like I had started to really call out some very uncomfortable patterns at this point.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: I had enough nephews who were old that you could absolutely see they would perpetuate marrying a beautiful, really sweet, kind Disney princess and manipulate her and cheat on her and tell her that it's her fault.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's kind of the pattern of our family.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_04: And so, like this text, I'm thinking about this text from your dad.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we go to the old testament.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, God would tell people if you do this, this is what's gonna happen.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_04: Sure, you can find some things in the New Testament.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: A lot.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_04: But he sends you these tech, he'll send you this text.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_04: Is he wanting dialogue or he's just wanting this?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is the first time he's really surfaced in about three and a half years.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he sent me texts before, but I'll always kind of be like, Yeah, I know he's not actually ready for change, so I'll I'll kind of test him and then he won't respond.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: This time he's telling me he'll go to therapy.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, Great.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: I that's the one thing she's asked for three and a half years.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is she just said this is so complicated, we need a third party to help us mediate this so that we can talk and work through things, and they've refused for the whole time.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we did actually do it with one therapist for I'm not LDS, but I I do coaching outside of states.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, there you go.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: I will present you as an option.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_04: That's my shameless plug for myself.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so what kind of so this this conversation?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_04: Let's go back to what you were talking, John.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_04: So uh the mother-in-law sends this kind of mass text or email.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all we know is that it's radio silent.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like Ash starts reaching out to siblings and things, and intentionally, but after months, but and some of them would just ghost her completely, or they would berate her, you know, and tell her, unless you come grovel back to us, blah, blah, blah.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it was like business bringing up people's private experiences.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I'm not trying to do that, but I can recognize patterns that are destructive.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: The my our favorite one that happened in the initial aftermath of the initial boundary is that my mother-in-law, Ashley's mom, went to lunch with my mom, and my mom was genuinely wanting to see, like, how can we help?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is not good.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the many things that she brought up to my mom was that I was controlling and you were a narcissist, that I was a narcissist, and that the family thought that I was gay.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: I remember seeing a TikTok on that.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yes.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: And my mom goes, Well, well, you say it better than I do.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: I always say I love John's mom for this response.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, she just didn't really react much, except for she said, Well, that's an interesting conclusion.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: What evidence do you have to support that belief?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Has he been caught around town with men?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: And my mom just oh no, no, no, no, no.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like that.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, he wears short shorts, and John's very tall.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm six four.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Shorter shorts have been in, so it's like he buys the longest shorts at Lululemon, and they're when he sits down, they're still short.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_04: Not cheating on his wife like he should be.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that was part of it.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: We we started connecting dots later because Ash would talk about, as sometimes families do, you know, and they would talk about relationships and that kind of a thing.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the brother-in-laws they would demand sex, right?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And they didn't have a strong emotional relationship, but they would just demand that.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And Ashley would say, John doesn't do that, you know, and so then they would interpret that as John doesn't have as strong of a sex drive, and maybe he's not attracted to Ashley and you know, these types of things.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like because their narrative to keep the women in line and excuse their behavior, it's all men.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I just can't emphasize that enough.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: All men, all men have these sex drives, and men were not meant to be monogamous.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's a commandment that God put in place, but it's against the natural man, and all men fight it.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: So actually, growing up, I was really conditioned to believe that being loved by a man meant him like wanting sex at all times.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: So then when John just had a normal man, that was confused me.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: We had we were the only couple that had a good emotional connection, and it was like we care about each other, and when we're going to do that, it's going to be an emotionally connective experience, and it's something that we will both do together, and it just was not viewed that way in that family culture.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: But the bigger issue of all of that, though, is you know, and you see this pattern in estrangement, the smear campaign, right?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly what it was.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we started catching wind of this narrative, you know, through our small tight-knit community that, yeah, John's controlling, he's a narcissist, John's gay, you know, like these things were being spread because they had to deflect from their problems.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And at this point, we hadn't talked at all to anybody.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't start talking on TikTok for two and a half years, you know, and it was kind of we got to that point where we just realized I don't know that this relationship is going to heal in this life.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there obviously is something therapeutic about just sharing your own story, but you know, it helps people feel less alone and it also turns into education too, when you can help people understand, you know, what these types of families do and why it's so destructive, and how you can, you know, I mean, as you know, you you you see a lot of that content online too.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, but we just at that point we kind of realize I don't know that these relationships are gonna heal.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: We get everything from the nieces and nephews come and egg our house and toilet paper it after a family wedding.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like they've continuously done as many bully tactics as they possibly can.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: We've gotten cease and assist letters from my father-in-law that have every family member copied on it.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've we've had the the gamut of things and bully tactics to try and get us back into submission with family culture.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And all that has done is us say, we want nothing to do with this.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it is just exposed, honestly, how sick they are.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the more they try to control, the more I'm like, they are far more sick than I ever realized.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_04: You know, what's the cease and desist for?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_04: Talking on TikTok.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: TikTok, our le our whole leave and cleave page, they want it shut down.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Your leave and cleave movement is of the devil.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_04: I think people forget that like TikTok is the public square, yeah.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right, and you're allowed to share your personal experience, right?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that's funny.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: I would always laugh, like, oh, that's interesting.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: I've been literally begging my dad to go to therapy, yeah.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: And instead, he'd rather go before a judge.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sign me.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: I love this, because to have a piece of desist be effective, you have to be telling lies.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everybody knows that I'm telling the truth or we're telling the truth.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually never been in question.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: But so many people are used to just staying silent as the noble thing.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, you know what?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it is, it often is, but then other times it gets to a point where the truth needs to be told.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_04: And only I I think that that's the the thing that I kind of rail against on TikTok is like the people that will come on and say, Oh, this is just a trend.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I think you've nailed it like I don't think it's a trend, I think it's just not been talked about.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah, because there's yeah.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you look in society, there's a lot of messaging about how silence is noble.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, it absolutely can be because when mostly from the boomers, though.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: When you speak, you have to do it at the right time and with discernment.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And but but it's hard because the messaging of of the nobility and it shows a man's character if he'll never speak the truth of somebody who harmed him or something.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, yes, that those situations do exist, and sometimes it is very noble.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is it's very silencing to people to never get the bravery when the truth does demand to be told, or else harm continues to inflict for generations, right?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh actually, how so this is happening?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_04: You care about these people, I'm assuming.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_04: And so you reach out to them and they're like, don't call me.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, how did you deal with that emotionally?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: I to be honest, I really just I just like anchored myself to God.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: I really did.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: He John has been my rock and my support, but at the end of the day, my family's messaging was still he's controlling her.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I hated that so bad because A, it it just showed me again how little respect that they have for me being an individual, because I thought they only think he's controlling me because they know that they controlled me, and they did.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so they think that I'm controllable, and so it made me mad that they would not give me like the self the respect and decency to think that I had a mind of my own, but also I was just common by the that's common by the way.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is it interesting, but also there was just kind of this little part of me that I trusted John.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I know I love him, I know we have a marriage that my family members don't even know that it exists, the the kind of love that we have.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: But also, I just I him and I talking about it was not enough for me.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: I could it's like I couldn't trust it, right?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: They they sowed enough seeds of doubt, and I almost needed to prove and just really test myself and be on this journey.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I really just did go to God and I was like, I need you to show me the truth.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of spent a two-year journey just reading scripture and praying and seeking.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: And when I asked God to show me the truth, he did it in all kinds of ways.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I was also prepared to receive it and to bear the cost of it at that point, and it was very painful, but I started to quickly see it's not surprising to me that they're not responding.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I expect it now that I know what I know, because I just I love when Jesus says, My word is quick and sharp and powerful.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: He actually, when we're ready to receive it, he can infuse enlightenment like so quickly.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt like a lot of things just started to make sense, including why they weren't responding, right?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like that didn't necessarily have the effect on me.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: It did, it saddened me, but I I developed the wisdom very quickly to understand why, and that that it would continue to happen.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I needed to again, it was part of the choice I was making to bear the cost of the truth.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_04: I I and I would say I don't get the vibe from you that you are controllable.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate that.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_04: That's very true.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not it's not to say that you don't like do submission, right?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: In in the biblical sense, but yeah, I'm gonna speak my mind and I get that vibe from you.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, thank you.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_04: So, what's what do you guys think would need to happen for reconciliation?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_04: Well, like whether it's with the whole family, one piece pieces of the family for us.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: We've often said to them, and it her parents have hated it, but we're like, we believe that relationships are one on one, and so we want to work on the relationships one on one.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if any of the siblings or whatever want a relationship, they're welcome to, we would be open to it, right?
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Ashley would be open to it with the parents.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: We would say multiple times, if you will go to therapy, you know, like and we can have a professional that can help walk us through what went wrong, what we can do, you know, how we can communicate with each other.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, Ashley didn't feel safe to just be one-on-one with them because it would always just go explosive.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they refuse to do that.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: That is just such a gaslighter.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we even said, okay, if you don't, because they kind of go down that therapy is a bunch of quack jobs, you know, type of a mentality too.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: They buy into that narrative online of the that uh therapy is such a that therapy is the cause for estrangement, right?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Let's put all blame on therapists.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: That we've even said, okay, then let's go to a religious leader, like let's talk, and they wouldn't do that either.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: The reality is they don't want to be accountable to anybody for their actions, they don't want to even utter it or have any focus on it.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: All of all of them or parents, especially.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a lot of this is like it's just the top down, and everybody else follows suit.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, to that.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: I believe I my oldest brother is really my dad's golden child, who's also protecting a lot of secrets, and he knows that I see through him because I've kind of called him out on things too.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually believe that he's kind of taken the role of my dad.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody stays under submission to pretty much him.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that he's actually in control even more than my dad is today.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: But his opinion and being included is so important in our family culture that, yeah.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, I think, you know, there's a varying degree.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not all or nothing, right, with a relationship.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we've often said, okay, how can we get to kind of a gray rock, you know, in therapy terms type relationship?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Or can we get it to where they're allowed, you know, they could come to the big events, you know, the graduations or the whatever.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what could we do so that we could still keep Some semblance of connection.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is, and we're just big advocates for the truth.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get the truth out on the table and let's just talk through it.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really what we're looking for at the end of the day is some semblance of accountability of what went wrong.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we want honesty.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if that existed on even a small scale, we would feel like there's a crack and that we could open that crack and see if there's a relationship that's possible.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: But every time we have pleaded for that, it is met with Darvo tactics, you know, that just completely try to flip the script and put it all back on us constantly.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just my mom's the one that's desperate for the connection.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll try to go gray gray rock, and I'll be like, okay, you can come to visit our house for our child's birthday, right?
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: And bring them a gift.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: And keep in mind they're 83, 84 right now.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: So they're older, and we realize that like that relationship is fleeting.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we're sensitive to that.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's hard.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like my mom and I are not emotionally connected the way we used to be.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell she doesn't show up as her vulnerable, authentic self.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, so it's I don't love it, but but at the end of the day, my mom, we're so used to knowing each other's hearts.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: And while I would be content to just gray rock, she actually can't.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: So at the end of every time, it's just like Ashley, if we could just talk, you know, and then I would end up being like, Mom, this and this problem.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem is my mom will usually see it.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, she will every time.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: It might take me a minute, but like, mom, this and this, it's not right.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: I can't do it.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then she will be like, Ashley, you're right.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I know there's problems.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: But if you would just apologize, and I would, I'm like, Mom, I'm never going to apologize.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: I can apologize for if the way I delivered something was hurtful.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm sure that there are things that I could apologize for, but I will not apologize for seeing the truth and naming patterns.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: I would have to deny my relationship with Christ, and I won't do that.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, but the problem is, is that, and this pattern is so strong now.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: My mom will see, but then she doesn't even see herself how much my dad gaslights and manipulates her.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: So she'll go back to him, she'll tell him the truth.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really gonna tell your dad this.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: I need to do that.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: And my dad will gaslight her back into submission, and then I won't hear from her again.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that has happened 15 times, you know.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I just know like she will go because she's just not smart enough or has not learned the second she brings any information to him, or even then my siblings, they gaslight her back into submission.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: They don't allow her to have a relationship with me, they're controlling it all, and I know that that she doesn't okay.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_04: So, so for any kind of reconciliation to happen, it seems like it has to be piecemeal, right?
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_04: Like this sibling over here, you'll start a conversation with, or and we are doing that.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we are reconciling with my third sister right now, who is actively seeing the truth and having her mind.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you don't want to tell, don't tell dad.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: Dad's gonna well, yeah, she is she's starting to stand up to dad, and it's pretty awesome, actually.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_04: Dad's an avid listener of my podcast, so I'm sure he's gonna find it.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say that she has I think we now have too much content that they can't even keep on top of it anymore.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think they did at one point, and then I think they're probably like why do these people keep popping up on my feed?
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: They already tried the cease and desist, they tried egging the house, they've tried all the things.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: Cease and desist is we finally we have an attorney, and we finally, after the third one, I just said, Okay, I can't keep having people show up at my door with hand handing me legal pay letters because it is triggering.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we finally had our attorney but like that's just isn't that just like a scare tactic?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_04: What can I actually do?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, again, he sees me as a little child who would never have a reasonable, like amazing attorney because only he can do that because he's got the money and the status and the power.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like little old Ashley and John would never have a good attorney, you know.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we finally had our attorney respond and then they went quiet away.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we asked our attorney asked to do a meeting with their attorney, and they canceled the day of, and we've never heard from them again.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: So again, it was just a test, it was a bully tactic, and I knew it.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: We we both knew it.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, I was like, sign me up, let me go to court.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: That thrills me.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: I have been asking for accountability anyway.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: But but I'm controlling her, right?
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_04: No, I think I mean why I think it's common, like in my family, you know, I got married, and then there were things that I didn't want to do, and so then it was hinted like that my wife was controlling me.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I think what happens in families, it's like you get out of this family dynamic where you can start making your own choices.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_04: And the thing that's different is that you have a new partner, and so then it's just assumed that you would never do this on your own, it must be this other person, and it's not.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_04: And again, if you spend any time on social media, you will see the estranged parent saying, Oh, it's the therapists telling people to do this, or it's the daughter-in-law, or the the husband, the son-in-law, and sometimes it is, but I think for the for a vast majority, it is not.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_04: It's like people are out from under this oppressive family control, and then like finally I can start doing my own thing, um, then not go to family dinner.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Or the spouse, like in my case, it it actually John did have a huge effect on me, but you know, it's funny.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: I I had a moment, I was always told we were lazy, you know, you're either the hardest worker like my dad or you're lazy.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so I remember, and I you believe those messaging messages, especially when you're kind of the empath in it in a narcissistic family.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember saying to John a couple years into our marriage, it took me a lot of bravery to ask this, but I was like, I need to just know, I know that I'm lazy.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'll do better if he just tells me he thinks.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, I have a question.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: I need you to be honest.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: I actually want your honesty.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think I'm lazy?
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I I thought this was going to be his response.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you could work a little harder, but it's okay.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like that's what I thought.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: And he looked at me with genuine surprise, and he's like, No, why would I think you're lazy?
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I was shocked.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, You for real?
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: You don't think I'm lazy?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, No.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, but I don't always do everything perfectly.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Ashley, nobody does all those things perfectly.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you're you're tired, you're doing lots of stuff.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's not lazy.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I have never ever had somebody see kind of the best in me and see that I'm just a human being, right?
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and then another time, like we left a family function, and he was just like, Ashley, it makes me so mad.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: Your siblings don't even see you, and he's like, they don't know you, they don't see you.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, You expect that they do?
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Yeah, because you are so intelligent, and your ideas and your thoughts and the things that you would have to contribute to a conversation, and you don't even try.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have these people over here who do all the talking who are just kind of idiots.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, It infuriates me.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you have they have this brilliant sister over here, and literally you won't even try to talk, and they don't want to get to know you.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd be like, You think I'm brilliant?
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I'm glad I married this guy.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like suddenly I I am in a relationship where somebody sees value in me rather than just telling me that I'm never gonna measure up or like we don't want to hear from you.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that is empowering, and it did change me.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I started to see you're right.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like he's like, it is infuriating.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's not love, Ashley, you know.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I I remember saying to him after that conversation, I have never needed to be known, I have never been known, I never will be known.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: That is what I have you for.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's weird that you have that expectation that they would know me, you know.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that day I didn't see it, but over time, just that conversation and knowing that that was true changed me so much.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I have told my mom that like, yes, I I'm different than I was, I'm no longer sweet, little passive Ashley, and I want to be sweet, but I need to be the speak the truth too.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Do you know what makes me strong?
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: And my mom literally admitted, she's like, John.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yes, but because he loves me, he empowers me.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: No woman in this family has ever known that.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_04: You're probably still sweet.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_04: You you're you're probably strong.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: I try, but you can tell this situation brings out the passion in me.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_04: No, I mean, I I appreciate you guys sharing the story because I think there's lots of families that are in this kind of situation as well, and they just kind of sit in it and they don't they don't feel empowered to do anything.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_04: What do you tell me?
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_04: Give me something you want to plug.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_04: What do you what do you want to plug?
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: The plugs.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, what we've kind of turned from our story, it just has continued to spread far and wide, and we know that there's very just interesting niche here.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think the biggest thing we can plug, so we have a book that we wrote, and it's called Christ-like boundaries, and and so it's available on Amazon.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you can purchase it there.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: But we decided to what we had to do with our own faith, because faith was a component of this whole dynamic, we had to take our faith, kind of deconstruct it, and rebuild it.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we didn't really get rid of any of the pieces, it was just out of order, you know.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we went through basic things like chapter one is that love is not compliance, and it's because that was what was basically taught to Ashley that in the that in her family, love meant that you would comply with whatever directives that they gave.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: That is what love meant, you know.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's one of the one of the first terms that I really deconstructed and had to relearn what love actually meant.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so we just read your has your dad read your book?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_04: I highly doubt it.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: He would never it's probably an audible.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_04: You can get him get it on audible.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, so we've kind of just walked through it from more of like a scriptural lens.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: All the scriptures come from the Bible, and we wanted to talk about how honor thy father and thy mother, what does that actually mean, for example?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, it's a commandment that's used as a weapon, and we want to help deconstruct that for people and help them understand look, if these things are being flung at you and used, you know, to control and manipulate you, let's help you kind of understand the doctrine and the gospel a little bit pure more purely so that you can actually use it to help in your life rather than a tool to harm you.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was why we kind of went to work on it.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's more of our message now is looking at it, you know, purely through kind of a more of a Christian lens.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but we have people that aren't Christian that have really resonated with it as well.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people that have just religious dynamics at play, or even the strong honor thy father and thy mother narrative, yeah, you know, that are needing some stumblance of boundaries in their life, the the message has really resonated with them.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_04: So that's probably the biggest part.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_04: Do you talk about Galatians in your book where it says don't exasperate your children and stuff?
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we love like Matthew 10 is a great one because it talks about how I come not to bring bring peace, but a sword to divide, like mother against her daughter-in-law, and father against son, and yeah, and he that loveth mother or father more than me is not of me.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, do not provoke your children to anger.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's all those things, and it's like again, I hate to call it the boomers, but it's so many want to just piecemeal it and focus on one thing, and we're like, yes, read the whole book of scripture before you like, you know what I mean?
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: All the concepts.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_04: All right, so what's what's your guys' website?
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what's so leave thencleave.com is the website, and that's the name of our other handles on various social medias.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we're obviously on TikTok, under that handle, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we have our own podcast as well where we'll talk about a lot of these things.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we're 60 episodes in.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you want to know more about our story, we tell a lot.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_04: It's probably called Leave and Cleave podcast.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's called uh it's just called Cleve, actually.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: That was where that one started was Cleave.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: But that was our that handle was already taken on all the platforms.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: So okay.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, cool.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: But you can find us that way.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, cool.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, I appreciate you guys coming on.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, we appreciate your story, and hopefully, hopefully it has a happy ending down the road.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, if I can ever if I can be of any help, please reach out.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_04: I'd love to help people reconcile.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_04: So thank you.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you guys for coming on.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_02: We appreciate it.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: See ya.